is it legal? [corporate logos on skins]

[batteryy]

this has been bugging me ever since ive made sarted making skins. is it actually illegal to make a skin, and add some sponsor logos on it? ive tought that that aint illegal, but what about making a teamskin with sponsor logos and saying this is our offical teamskin? im confused about this lol. also is it illegal to modify the original logos, since they usually have a copyright
thanks:)

[Blackout]

Use of copyrighted material without permission is always illegal by law.

[Dajmin]

I'm pretty sure Blackout is right and use of a copyrighted logo without permission is always illegal.

However, most companies won't pay any attention to it as long as you're not making a profit from it. If you're charging money for an event and using their name then that's an issue, but if it's free entry and nobody exchanges cash then they'll just consider it free marketing.

[batteryy]

I'm pretty sure Blackout is right and use of a copyrighted logo without permission is always illegal.

However, most companies won't pay any attention to it as long as you're not making a profit from it. If you're charging money for an event and using their name then that's an issue, but if it's free entry and nobody exchanges cash then they'll just consider it free marketing.
what about the people selling skins for money:scratchch so they are actually doing it illegal then

[BreadC]

who would buy a skin for lfs?

[EliteAti]

who would buy a skin for lfs?

Teamskins :thumb:

[tristancliffe]

Which teams sells their skins??????

Edit: Ah I see. He meant a team paying a decent skinner to put their design on the cars for them. Sorted via the magic of PMs.

[Greboth]

Which teams sells their skins??????

I think he meant more paying someone to make a team skin.

My view on this is that while yes it is illegal to use copyright material without permission I don't see a problem with this. While I can't see any of the companies would pay to have their sponsorship on your car, by you having the sponso logo on your car you are giving them free advertising. Also, while in the eys of the law you are breaking the law, I personally would think less of a company if it tried to enforce its name not being used on a car skin.

[EsCoRt RaLLy]

Which teams sells their skins??????

I think he mean that some teams pay good skinners to make them a nice skin.:scratchch

[Dajmin]

If that's the case then yes it'll definitely be a crime.

It's the exact same thing that prevents Scawen adding all the real cars in the world (other than time restrictions) :)

Odds are nobody will notice though, since it's smalltime. But they'd be within their rights to press charges.

[jaxx751]

My view on this is that while yes it is illegal to use copyright material without permission I don't see a problem with this. While I can't see any of the companies would pay to have their sponsorship on your car, by you having the sponso logo on your car you are giving them free advertising. Also, while in the eys of the law you are breaking the law, I personally would think less of a company if it tried to enforce its name not being used on a car skin.
the problem is if the company does not want their name affiliated with LFS in anyway. If they're a direct sponsor of Forza they most likely won't want their name in LFS. (for example)

Odds are nobody will notice though, since it's smalltime. But they'd be within their rights to press charges.
Werd. Odds are you won't get into any trouble simply because of 1) int'l borders if you're in a different country 2) they won't care a bit.

[Greboth]

the problem is if the company does not want their name affiliated with LFS in anyway. If they're a direct sponsor of Forza they most likely won't want their name in LFS. (for example)

Using your example I can't think of a sponsor that is used in forza which a) hasn't got sponsorship in other places and b) would really turn there noses up at free advertising. The only way I think it would be trouble would be in turn 10 made some comment about people using their sponsors illegally in a racing sim and then wanting the sponsor to do something about it.

Back in my skinning days, I built up a big file of sponsoship logo's. If I saw any on a skin someone else had made, I would look up the name to see what the company did and if I wanted, add it to my logo collection. While it is using copyright material illegally, you could also view it as a variation of words of mouth.

[morpha]

Many companies cover the use of their logos in legal guidelines, here (http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/trademarks/usage/logo.mspx) are Microsoft's (rather strict) guidelines for example.

[Dajmin]

From copyrightservice.co.uk:

1. Is a logo subject to copyright?

Yes. A logo that includes artistic or design elements, (i.e. not just the name on its own), is legally regarded as being a work of artistic creation and therefore will be protected under copyright law.

Copyright protects the logo as an artistic work. As copyright is an automatic international right, it therefore follows that, (other than activities specified under fair dealing rules), unauthorised copying of that logo would be an infringement.

2. Could a trademark also apply?

This is possible. As the name suggests, a trademark can be applied to the logo as it is an identifying mark of the brand identity. Registered trademarks are applied for within a particular country or region and typically within a trading sector. A trademark will only cover the mark within that region or trading sector.

If you are interested in a trademark, you should contact a trademark attorney or your national patent or trademark office for further details.
__________

It belongs to the company, they paid money for someone to design it for them. Using it without permission is tantamount to theft. The law isn't in question, the only question is whether it'll save them money in the long run to sue somebody about it.

If you want an example, imagine LFS suddenly added a Ferrari without permission from the company. Ferrari fans would be very interested, so the game would pick up a lot of Ferrari followers who bought the game for that. That's money being made on the Ferrari name, despite nobody at the company saying yes they could do it.

Does Ferrari make anything from this arrangement? No.

Do they lose anything? Possibly. A Ferrari fan with a simulator already is less likely to buy a new simulator that Ferrari have given permission and spent money helping to develop. Like Ferrari Challenge, since it's the only one I can think of. The quality of the product is irrelevant in this case, but may have connotations elsewhere. Why would I buy that when my favourite Ferrari was already in a game I have?
The other thing is that Ferrari would have no rights to say "this element is wrong". You could have the Enzo outrun by the XFG if you wanted, and they couldn't do anything. That would be creating a negative brand image, which is probably also equal to slander.

On a small scale, a handful of copies, it's not such a big deal. The skins, for example, aren't a big moneymaking scheme and are likely to only go to a couple of people. To You wouldn't even get the cost of a single lawyer for the total amount made. But LFS has a fairly large global fanbase. It's not actively marketed, but it does continue to pick up new users all the time. It's not Forza / Gran Turismo big, but it's healthy.

So in this case it would be prudent for Ferrari to stop the LFS team selling their product because they could be losing money. Not only that, having their name on a non-Ferrari car potentially being driven by a useless driver means when people see it, they equate it with the Ferrari name. And that's not necessarily a good thing.

What a long post. I rest my case, Your Honour.

[eRaptor]

Use of copyrighted material without permission is always illegal by law.

ouch... (if it is illegal, that's by law) :thumb:

[Rotareneg]

Actually, that deals with trademark law, not copyright law.

[Dajmin]

It's an intellectual property, it equates to the same thing (as my website quote sort of says). The same reason I can't copy the Mona Lisa and sell it as the original (not counting my inability to paint) :)

[Greboth]

To be honest I think it comes down to this.

Is it illegal?: yes. Will you get into trouble/is it wrong? Yes its wrong but as it is non profit, free advertising then you are very unlikely to get into trouble. LFS has been aroudn for years now and I know of no one who has been told they can't use a logo.

However I would presume as with most things, you would get a cease and disist before being taken to court.

[auch_enne]

http://www.ripremix.com/ ...

[Hallen]

Copyright and Trademark laws are a lot more fuzzy than it appears. It is never clear cut. For example, I made a skin that turned the XRR into the Corvette C6R ALMS car. I used the Compuware logo and the other marques on that car to make the skin. Obviously, Corvette had permission to use those logos, and I was just using the same logos to make a representative car. Is that infringement? Possibly, but it would probably come down to intent if it were ever taken to court. But GM would never take you to court over that kind of use and neither would Compuware. It uses their marques in line with the intended use and I was not trying to usurp their marque for a purpose of my own.

Also, if I take a picture of said Corvette at the races, and I get paid to allow the use of that picture (with all the logos in plain sight) on a website, have I infringed on the copyright and trademark laws? No, not really even though I have "reproduced" those logos for my own work.

In any case, using actual company logos on your car skins may technically be against international copyright and trademark laws, it is not an infringement and would not be pursued as long is was done by individuals and not used for commercial purposes. Now if you were in an actual Pro LFS league, that would be different most likely. However, it would be easy to get permission to use a logo in that case if you wanted to. You just have to contact the company and ask permission and they will generally comply.

[Dajmin]

Which I believe is a far more concise and shorter version of what I said. I do like to babble incoherently :) Maybe it comes from posting at work.

It'd actually be pretty cool to have a company headed letter granting permission to use (for example) the Coca Cola or nVidia logos on your skins. I'd frame it :)

[count.bazley]

Technically it is illegal and any company is well within their rights to order a 'cease and desist' on your use of said logo. It usually isn't worth it for an organisation to threaten us mere hobbyists who are in effect promoting the brand for free. However, I do seem to recall American Airlines forcing flightsim.com to remove any downloads featuring their liveries around 10 years ago, so it's not unprecedented.

[Hallen]

Technically it is illegal and any company is well within their rights to order a 'cease and desist' on your use of said logo. It usually isn't worth it for an organisation to threaten us mere hobbyists who are in effect promoting the brand for free. However, I do seem to recall American Airlines forcing flightsim.com to remove any downloads featuring their liveries around 10 years ago, so it's not unprecedented.

Probably. I bet AA didn't really care nor did they really want to deny simmers the use of their logos, but the laws say that if you don't protect your marques, then they become public property. That forces them to do things like that if the use of the marques is public enough for too many people to notice. Examples of the loss of trademarks are "Refrigerator" originally owned by Frigidaire and "Crescent Wrench" owned by the Crescent tool company (it was just an adjustable wrench or spanner).

[MadCat360]

If it was really a problem every painter in Forza 2 would be in the slammer now. And Turn 10/Microsoft has no problem publishing that stuff on their site.

[jaxx751]

Using your example I can't think of a sponsor that is used in forza which a) hasn't got sponsorship in other places and b) would really turn there noses up at free advertising. The only way I think it would be trouble would be in turn 10 made some comment about people using their sponsors illegally in a racing sim and then wanting the sponsor to do something about it.
Just because you think they won't doesn't mean they can't. It's their intellectual property and if they don't want it associated with certain things they have every right to do so. In a case like this, it would be smarter to ask for permission than ask for forgiveness in court.

If it was really a problem every painter in Forza 2 would be in the slammer now. And Turn 10/Microsoft has no problem publishing that stuff on their site.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't think you could import full blown logos into forza. Anything that is in Forza is obviously licensed.

[Gerdoner]

My view on this is that while yes it is illegal to use copyright material without permission I don't see a problem with this. While I can't see any of the companies would pay to have their sponsorship on your car, by you having the sponso logo on your car you are giving them free advertising. ...

Not necessarily.
I know a league that got into serious troubles broadcasting their races, so they enforced to have the permission of the sponsors on the skins.
And quite a few companies didn't hand out permissions (even when they were shown really great designs) because they can't really "control" the team and their behavior. If you get a permission, it's often very limited (Company X allows driver Y to use their logo only on skin Z)

[batteryy]

Not necessarily.
I know a league that got into serious troubles broadcasting their races, so they enforced to have the permission of the sponsors on the skins.
And quite a few companies didn't hand out permissions (even when they were shown really great designs) because they can't really "control" the team and their behavior. If you get a permission, it's often very limited (Company X allows driver Y to use their logo only on skin Z)
then im just curious, what about mtv3 max that broadcasted some races and if the racers had their own skin with this technically illegal stuff on it:scratchch

[JeffR]

Actually, that deals with trademark law, not copyright law.In the USA, logo's are covered under trademark law, since copyright laws don't cover symbols that closely resemble actual trademarked logos, but trademark laws do (for example to prevent "knock-off" items such as purse that looks like a Gucci purse). Trademarks aren't automatic though, they have to be filed.

Single words and short phrases can't be copyrighted. Short phrases are difficult to trademark. Then there are the fair use laws in the USA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

The closest thing to a standard is the youtube standard. Generally as long as credit or a link is given for the source to a video, there's no issue. If there is a complaint about video content, youtube will ask the poster to counter the claim or to remove the video.

Youtube does some automatic screening, based on keywords in the titles or descriptions of posted videos, but not the actual video content. However the auto-screening has been an issue, for example, Viacom was tagging "tomb raider underworld trailer", even though they were only one of several companies making these trailers. It became a moot point when the game itself included a high quality version of the main trailer as an intro video (since Eidos then owned the rights and didn't have any issues with the intro being posted).

It's isn't infringment until someone complains or includes some type of clause where it's shown, such as the clauses about not re-broadcasting sports events shown on TV, or the do not copy clauses on games or videos. At the other end, GNU licensing uses copyright to prevent any infringement claims. So the legality depends on the claims regarding infringment or potential infringment.

Bottom line, I doubt any company is going to complain about a logo used in a niche market racing game.

[MadCat360]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't think you could import full blown logos into forza. Anything that is in Forza is obviously licensed.

You can use the layers system to make your own logos.

Link to a sticky thread containing race livery competition winners (http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/1/1272534/ShowThread.aspx)

Most of those have plenty of marking that isn't in the game.


http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa252/JizzyShizno/LiveryComp%20Winners/Week67Oer291.jpg

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa252/JizzyShizno/LiveryComp%20Winners/Week73P51Warbird.jpg