NK Pro vs LFS Tires

[silent_wind]

this is a quote from the NK Pro forum in the "unofficial FAQ" section :

TYRES:
(from Kunos' diary)

The main element of any simulation was also the subject of a total rewrite. The model is now a Pacejka 96 full model with integrations for temperature and pressure changes plus some integration for dynamic behaviour for the quick spinning on the Y axis of the tire. (quick steer).
What I really love about this Pacejika's model is the incredible control it gives on the relationship between longitudinal and lateral forces plus the ability to reproduce a tire with 3 different "zones": a linear zone, a sliding zone, and a frictional zone once the tire lost the grip. I find the linear zone often missing generating a tire that is in "sliding" mode all the time.. giving a sort of "floating" feel to it. In netKar PRO, you get a clear linear zone that gives the tires an incredible amount of "bite".. you really need to push the car to get into the "sliding" mode of the tire and makes driving fast with netKar PRO a very different experience where you literally throw the car into a corner at speeds that most of the time you won't believe and then you'll handle her on the edge of the limit. Driving is more "physical", after 20 laps with the powerful stiff cars you really feel your head shaking.
I turned off the automatic surface smoothing featured in nK099, and this makes the ride really scary on the stiff lower cars and you'll often find yourself bottoming around shaking like crazy. The fact of driving directly on the triangles of the track also gives meaning to the idea of "fast bump and rebound" settings.. mostly unusued before, you'll need these badly to set up the attitude of the car on bumps. I was able to turn off the smoothing because the new tire model is so good to handle the contact/no contact situations, much better than the old one. As you can tell, I am quite happy and excited by the results.

i was just wondering if the devs are planing to implement somethin similar for LFS tire physics ? and if yes , is it gonna be on the next patch ?

Thx,

[Tweaker]

I think the way the terminology and words are published in any official Netkar posts/reports... it is all just sound too complex for how simple it really is. Nearly most simulations have these "dynamic behaviours", but they all do it in a different way. And of course, some have more or less complex tire models for their physics engine. I mean, LFS has a good amount of "bite" at an adequate pace, and if you push it, you of course are going to get some sliding feel.

Scawen has said that he knows the tire issues at hand currently in LFS, and it will be worked on. I know for one, low-speed grip is the biggest issue, that'll be nice once that is fixed. There are issues with some cars sliding in a snappy behaviour at medium and high speeds... but as it may seem a bit tooo excessive, there are any number of things that create the sliding in LFS.

People don't seem to understand the NUMEROUS complications that cause the cars to slide in LFS. And then they just go off on a tantrum about why the tires suck... blah blah.

It can be anything from:

-Hot tires (poor pressure and compound choice)
-Suspension settings
-Steering activity (too strong, too wild)
-Braking and Steering causing the car to throw itself around (thus heating up the tires from a bad slide)
-They simply just do NOT know the track, and need more practice. (They feel like a superhero and can drive any car or track instantly)

... the list goes on. And once you get a setup that can complete a race comfortably and not have you worrying about the "slippery" tires, you can find that the tire model is not all that bad. It does have its shortcomings, but those should be fixed, no doubt. And at least... that will make the driving in LFS ten times more enjoyable, with or without all this advanced mumbo jumbo Netkar is known for (I mean come on... if the simulation feels great, it is built great... words & propaganda mean absolutely nothing until you've experienced it all first hand) :)

[ajp71]

Nearly most simulations have these "dynamic behaviours", but they all do it in a different way. And of course, some have more or less complex tire models for their physics engine.

Don't know what simulations you've been playing them, the Papy sims had a decent degree of 'bite', even GPL had it when it was supposed to, unlike any ISI 'sim' I've ever tried, they all just feel like floating above the track. nK namie didn't feel too great in the formula Renault or any of the closed wheel cars, but was simply awesome in the F3000 despite the ropey tire model its still the most engrosing simulation to date IMO (at a few tracks like Falkenberg + Crystal Palace) despite its poor graphics. The second most engrosing sim for me is the GTP mod for N2003.

I don't find LFS to be intensive like nK + GTP and for this reason it takes maybe 20 minutes of lapping each time I start it up to get back into it after driving the other two. Once your aclimatised to LFS's 'feel' it's pretty good, excelent in fact for everything apart from the LXs and open wheel cars. The tire model isn't bad and I don't think that has anything to do with the small issues I have with it when racing, certainly the aerodynamics model leaves a little to be desired, I'm not sure if running high nosed cars accurately effects their handling? I'd still put most of LFS's problems down to the lack of structural stiffness, a car like a Caterham will flex and being so light you really feel the difference when it doesn't and as usual I'll have to rant about the UF1, which IMO has absolutley no relationship to a Mini, you just have to look at a Mini bodyshell to realise that you could never make an open topped racing car from it, if the devs want an open car that's fine but a Mini is not a suitable carto choose for the purpose.

[Hyperactive]

...
... the list goes on. And once you get a setup that can complete a race comfortably and not have you worrying about the "slippery" tires, you can find that the tire model is not all that bad.
...

I have to disagree on this (though this is getting little offtopic). I just haven't been able to find/create a set for RAC/LX6/FZ5 where there wasn't that snappy feeling.


As to the differences between nk pro tires and LFS... how much do we actually know about each? As nk pro is just publishing its first real playable incarnation they want to emphasize the differences it has over other products. Of course I'm eagerly waiting the 10th day of the next month but I won't hold my breath. As tweaker said it's all words on paper, there isn't even a good video of it yet :)

EDIT: But the "total realism"-approach of nk pro is very appealing to me.

[axus]

That whole 3 stage model sounds a bit dodgy to me - surely it should be a seamless transition? You have a few curves - slip angle : lateral grip, slip ration : longitudinal grip, tyre load : grip etc etc. When you isolate the effects of each one you should get a reliable, seamless equation for grip... Unless the value of the slip angle changes the tyre load sensitivity, but this could still be expressed with an equation, albiet a bit hard to determine. I wonder if you can actually feel the tyre model switching between stages in NKpro - ie. all of a sudden you feel like the laws of physics have changed... that would feel odd... And I'm not sure if the tyre flex is simulated in NKpro...

[tristancliffe]

Caterhams are cars you drive with the seat of the pants, something you can't do in a sim, and there are two ways of going about 'solving' this (imo). One, make the sim more forgiving so aren't punished for the lack of feel or, two, just make the tyre behaviour as real as possible but risk getting 'flamed' for having cars that are too hard to control.

I think the LX6 is very hard to drive on the limit constantly and I suspect that's because of it's high power combined with the known shortcomings of LFS's tyres at high slip angles and low speeds. But the LX4 is sweet as. You can feel it squirm on the sidewalls, hold four wheel drifts through corners (though the tyre temp model with punish for driving like this) and generally be at one with the car. If you watch that "Whose Fault was it" Caterham video you'll see just how realistic the LX4 is, and how physical and nervous a real caterham is on the limit.

[Tweaker]

@ajp71 --- I never argued against any simulations (come on now ajp71, you've been though this way too many times, and still at it)... I clearly said that most simulations have good tire models, but all are done in a different way, and as an end result, they all feel different. I think you don't understand what I was saying.

My point was about that was that what is said for any simulation, is that however they explain their tire models, the conclusions are drawn once you drive the simulation... however detailed and concise the explanations may be on the tire model (like above), it has absolutely no precedence for being the 'best' tire model... it is all in how it feels. Which is not what the thread starter seems to understand. Because 1) the game isn't even out yet (this is just community interest knowledge), and 2) LFS doesn't 'lack' these things in its tire model, and I am pretty sure it is quite similar. But again, the results are given in how well the tire model is done once you drive the game. So overall, the point being that the most popular simulations have some good and bad tire models... and that judgement call is ALWAYS based upon people's opinions of how it felt, NOT through all the technical talk (which is only used to back up reasons for having a good or bad tire model)

And for crying out loud, Papy's GPL was good, floaty, but good. But the most enjoyable tire model comes from NR2003, no doubt about that. So if you would just get off that mindset that I only think LFS has the greatest of all things :rolleyes: It would be very easy to have a conversation here ajp71... and you wouldn't go on about your stupid UF convertable structural abilities rants.... heard it plenty of times already!!!

I also honestly don't think structural stiffness is the problem with some of the little tire issues people gripe about anyways. Clearly things are wrong with the tires, and a lot has been talked about them... quite in-depth I might add. And there are a few huge threads that go on and on about that. It isn't a dumbfounding mystery we all have to solve when it comes to LFS, it is pretty easily noticeable what needs to be fixed, and kudos to Scawen for saying he'd fix it.

[Tweaker]

I have to disagree on this (though this is getting little offtopic). I just haven't been able to find/create a set for RAC/LX6/FZ5 where there wasn't that snappy feeling.

That is a bit worrying, because at first when S2 came out, this was a problem for everyone. I had some terrible snappy sets that I could just not deal with. Now if you go and try a few world record sets and others that are circulating, they are VERY NICE and stable. Just because you cannot find a setup without a certain performance issue, doesn't mean that the tire model is entirely at fault.

[Hyperactive]

Here is where the personal preference comes in. For me the only sims without the floaty feeling are the GPL, nkar namie and LFS. Everything else feels just floaty with little or none feeling at all. Btw. rFactor is way better though than the rest of isi creations but it still lacks here. imho

I think the LX6 would be a prefect ride if there was a completely flat track on LFS. The car just doesn't like bumps (or me). But again comparing sims comes always down to personal preference. For some people rfactor behaves exactly like they expect a real car to behave or they just like it. Same thing with every sim :)

[silent_wind]

@tweaker : so basicaly what you're sayin is all that talkin bout NK pro is BS, right ? (i know you didnt SAY it was BS, but it sounds like it to me )
anyway, whatever you meant remains your opinion that i actually dont agree with , and i even think that NK pro is really promissing concerning tire physics..

you mention that some might have bad setups, or tires heat issues that makes the LFSian car hard to handle, is this an excuuse ?? ..the thing is , in LFS you have to have a diffrent setting "approach" and despite the fact you're good or not at setting up cars..it's like you're setting the car for rain conditions to prevent that brutal spining, and adapting you driving and/or setups to some "false" and wrong behavors isn't really exciting IMO..i really think you're not really objective when it comes down to LFS, as many others here by the way..but whatever.

@ajp71 : i agree with you there when you brought up NR2003 and GTP...it just feels so grippy and even with the worst setup in the world you still have that grip/bite feeling!

i know LFS is still an alpha and whatnot..i just hope that LFS will reach that NK or NR2003/GTP tire physics level someday........:shrug: and by the way , it's been a long time i havent gone for a spin on LFS and i wont till a patch for tires is out, and at the mean time im gonna get that Nk pro when it's out by the end of this month..

[axus]

Wow! Relax!

You started a thread, asked for an opinion and when someone gave one that differs from your initial mind-set, you flamed them! You just threw the guy's opinion, which you asked for, back in his face. There is no denying that LFS tyre physics lack in certain aspects - and Tweaker admitted that. You say that you hope LFS reaches NK tyre physics levels some day like you already know what NK physics are like. The fact of the matter is that you don't know what NK drives like and you don't know how tyres are modelled in LFS because Scawen hasn't given us a detailed description so you have no basis for such a statement. If you are here to cause shit with this thread then a moderator should please close it ASAP. If you are here to have a decent conversation
then do so.

[Tweaker]

No not BS at all. Those statements (if coming from NK officially) could be very well all true. But if you notice these days with a lot of simulations, they get more attention and hype before the game even comes out... just by posting some gratifying reads that the community just loves to oogle about. Happened with a lot of past simulations, and still happens whenever something news arises. Take rFactor for example. Soooo much was said and discussed about that simulation... had me VERY interested just like NetKar has done too. BUT, once the game came out, it was a complete failure to me, it did NOT meet my expectations that I interpreted from their stupid reads and pre-release hype mumbo. I am not saying NetKar will do the same, but rFactor is just an example of how "iffy" these reads can be... which is why it isn't so smart to request something for LFS from a simulation that has not even been widely tested/played. Once NK comes out, only then could these explanations you read about be used to reinforce why the tire model is so good, or so bad.

I know what you mean about setting your car to adapt to the slippery physics, that is present with most setups with most of the cars in LFS. But still, the tire model overall is great in LFS regardless of that point because the setups ARE being made PROPERLY in order for the car to make grip. Think of it this way... If you had a sportscar that had trouble with slippery rear-end grip, and you had the chance to fix it via the car's setup, you'd have to give the car very similar settings as you would in LFS. The only downside is, we are making setups for the lack of a specific kind of grip that fails at a certain maximum. Like as if we had some poorly made tires that collapse from fright :). Once that is fixed, the feel for LFS will be great, and I am sure people will approve of it and we won't have to be making setups that try and alleviate the sliding.

As for objective... yeah... to your contradiction... I can recall when you said everyone was "fukin' retards" online the other night because nobody agreed with you :rolleyes: :doh: Gimme a break, relax yourself.

[silent_wind]

Wow! Relax!

You started a thread, asked for an opinion and when someone gave one that differs from your initial mind-set, you flamed them! You just threw the guy's opinion, which you asked for, back in his face. There is no denying that LFS tyre physics lack in certain aspects - and Tweaker admitted that. You say that you hope LFS reaches NK tyre physics levels some day like you already know what NK physics are like. The fact of the matter is that you don't know what NK drives like and you don't know how tyres are modelled in LFS because Scawen hasn't given us a detailed description so you have no basis for such a statement. If you are here to cause shit with this thread then a moderator should please close it ASAP. If you are here to have a decent conversation
then do so. you should relax dude, i only gave my own opinion, i aint preventing anyone from giving his/her opinions...i dont see no flaming or such thing on my post, i was just just comparing the 2 sims concerning their tire phisics..i think you should calm down abit instead of jumping on people's necks like that and stop being dramatic pls, no use..

[axus]

i really think you're not really objective when it comes down to LFS, as many others here by the way..but whatever.

How's that? The guy just told you that he thinks LFS physics does lack in certain aspects and you call him un-objective? What else do you want him to say? And LFSers aren't objective as opposed to the rFactor boys (http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=240639)? And of course let's not forget the GTR boys (http://forum.rscnet.org/showpost.php?p=2134834&postcount=4) who will flame you for wondering about Unsprung Mass Distribution and things like that... I may have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick here and found the minority of posts that stand out as bad, but I don't think that anyone in the LFS forums will just post in your complex physics discussion thread just to tell you that he thinks you are a dumbass.

On the completely opposite extreme - on this forum you get some very objective discussions:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=4761
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=4375
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=4214
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3667

...the list goes on...

[silent_wind]

No not BS at all. Those statements (if coming from NK officially) could be very well all true. But if you notice these days with a lot of simulations, they get more attention and hype before the game even comes out... just by posting some gratifying reads that the community just loves to oogle about. Happened with a lot of past simulations, and still happens whenever something news arises. Take rFactor for example. Soooo much was said and discussed about that simulation... had me VERY interested just like NetKar has done too. BUT, once the game came out, it was a complete failure to me, it did NOT meet my expectations that I interpreted from their stupid reads and pre-release hype mumbo. I am not saying NetKar will do the same, but rFactor is just an example of how "iffy" these reads can be... which is why it isn't so smart to request something for LFS from a simulation that has not even been widely tested/played. Once NK comes out, only then could these explanations you read about be used to reinforce why the tire model is so good, or so bad.

I know what you mean about setting your car to adapt to the slippery physics, that is present with most setups with most of the cars in LFS. But still, the tire model overall is great in LFS regardless of that point because the setups ARE being made PROPERLY in order for the car to make grip. Think of it this way... If you had a sportscar that had trouble with slippery rear-end grip, and you had the chance to fix it via the car's setup, you'd have to give the car very similar settings as you would in LFS. The only downside is, we are making setups for the lack of a specific kind of grip that fails at a certain maximum. Like as if we had some poorly made tires that collapse from fright :). Once that is fixed, the feel for LFS will be great, and I am sure people will approve of it and we won't have to be making setups that try and alleviate the sliding.

As for objective... yeah... to your contradiction... I can recall when you said everyone was "fukin' retards" online the other night because nobody agreed with you :rolleyes: :doh: Gimme a break, relax yourself. first we're talkin bout NK vs LFS here not "all the other sims" , second you said it yourself "hose statements (if coming from NK officially) could be very well all true.", i think NK guys are pretty serious , i guess.. i also compared it to GTP and NR2003 for more specific references..now , i think you got my idea ayway...

concerning your sweet memories from online, you also forgot to recall why i said "f**** retards, but hey , you couldnt help it but bring that shit up here anyway, huh ? the sad truth is there are some retards online really..but i dont think it's the topic of this thread neither the right place to quote things that happen Online..you may wanna stay on topic :thumb:..and if you have anythin to say bout the online bitching or whatever , you're more than welcome to PM bout it so you'll get the proper answer to that.. once again , let's stay on topic pls. thx.

[silent_wind]

How's that? The guy just told you that he thinks LFS physics does lack in certain aspects and you call him un-objective? What else do you want him to say? And LFSers aren't objective as opposed to the rFactor boys (http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=240639)? And of course let's not forget the GTR boys (http://forum.rscnet.org/showpost.php?p=2134834&postcount=4) who will flame you for wondering about Unsprung Mass Distribution and things like that... I may have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick here and found the minority of posts that stand out as bad, but I don't think that anyone in the LFS forums will just post in your complex physics discussion thread just to tell you that he thinks you are a dumbass.

On the completely opposite extreme - on this forum you get some very objective discussions:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=4761
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=4375
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=4214
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3667

...the list goes on... nothin is wrong bout what i said ,actually i meant he might not be objective, so now you may wanna take it easy and lose that attitude ok? and thx for calling me a dumbass (i wont reply to that here even if im able to say a lotta thing bout you too)..chill out now and stop posting here if u dont like the thread, im kinda sick of you being dramatic from the start..back to the topic.

[Shotglass]

GTR boys (http://forum.rscnet.org/showpost.php?p=2134834&postcount=4)

hmmm we should try to get bob to like gtr so he can help that poor guy

anyway hows your work with tristan and colcob comming along ?

[tristancliffe]

anyway hows your work with tristan and colcob comming along ?

I've just been on MSN smiling sweetly really - can't say I've done a great deal of helping as the RAF/CMX/SMX stuff just confuses me most of the time...

[axus]

I wouldn't have bothered replying again this time if you hadn't put words in my mouth, saying that I called you a dumbass. If you have a language issue that's your problem, but if you read carefully you'd see that I was refering to someone asking a physics question on the GTR forums being called a dumbass for wondering about such things.

As you say, back to topic. There isn't much to say on it except we know how the LFS model drives and it is currently one of the closest representations of the real world out there. We have no idea how the NK model drives because noone has driven it. We know how the NK model works in terms of how they have gone about simulating physics. We have little such information about the LFS model apart from what is simulated in it - we do not know the methods used. Little basis for comparison, don't you think? :pillepall :scratchch

As for the NK guys being serious about NK Pro, that they are. The question still remains - are they serious about simulating physics like the LFS people, or are they serious about making money and is this a big facade to get people interested? That question shall be answered when people actually drive NK and give their opinoin. This thread is pointless until then, so when you throw an insult or put words in someone's mouth, don't expect people to stay on topic because there really isn't one.

EDIT: Shotglass, it is coming along nicely - thanks for asking. For more information, you are free to visit our wiki at http://monkster.hopto.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TractionBudget and take a look at what we have. There's still quite a bit of work. I've really done about as much as tristan - digging up physics formulae and arranging them in a sensible manner for our programmer (MonkOnHotTinRoof).

[ajp71]

Sorry tweak if you took my post the wrong way, obviously I can't draw conclusions about nK pro yet although in terms of feel the only 3 simulations I've ever thought feel even remotely 'right' have been Papy, nK and LFS.

To what Tristan said about the LXs I would argue that the LX4 is still far too nervous, although it's important to remember it's on road tires. As for the video neither of them really had much of a clue as to what they were doing, far too agressive not driving smoothly or setting the car up nicely into corners, to an extent you just couldn't do in LFS.

The fastest Caterhams I've seen have always been the ones that are actually setup with minimal oversteer and even a touch of understeer. It rather concerns me that the fastest people in LFS seem to drive at such ludicrous angles, whether no one fast has explored different setup philosophies or whether there are physics bugs I don't know.

[ajp71]

As for the NK guys being serious about NK Pro, that they are. The question still remains - are they serious about simulating physics like the LFS people, or are they serious about making money and is this a big facade to get people interested? That question shall be answered when people actually drive NK and give their opinoin. This thread is pointless until then, so when you throw an insult or put words in someone's mouth, don't expect people to stay on topic because there really isn't one.


I'd be suprised if nK turns out to be anything other than an extremely serious simulation, it is offering keyboard support this time and none cockpit views, but is not offering any driving aids, so don't expect keyboard users to be competitive anymore. It's also offering server filters to force cockpit view and not allow keyboard/mouse users.

[silent_wind]

I wouldn't have bothered replying again this time if you hadn't put words in my mouth, saying that I called you a dumbass. If you have a language issue that's your problem, but if you read carefully you'd see that I was refering to someone asking a physics question on the GTR forums being called a dumbass for wondering about such things. yeah, i think i went a bit too fast reading your post since you seemed pretty agressive from the start... my mistake on that one then.. as for insulting people, come on, i dont think i insulted anyone here...that's a bit too much..anyway, how bout GTP/NR2003 vs LFS tires ? i already mentioned it in some posts above..is it more specific to you to come up with a conclusion ? how bout the feeling anyway ?

im gonna add GTP/NR2003 in the tillte topic by the way.

[silent_wind]

I'd be suprised if nK turns out to be anything other than an extremely serious simulation, it is offering keyboard support this time and none cockpit views, but is not offering any driving aids, so don't expect keyboard users to be competitive anymore. It's also offering server filters to force cockpit view and not allow keyboard/mouse users.
no cockpit view ? i thought i read on NK RSC forum there gonna be a cockpit..it's in the unofficial FAQ stiky..or maybe we're not talkin bout the same cockpit view ..

[axus]

Well, my opinion on LFS tyres since S2 has been that they are pretty good overall - I get a good feeling when I drive LFS. My body tenses up and I know what's going on. Gotta concentrate when driving something with a big power to weight ratio but I'd say that's the same in real life. There are the obvious low-speed grip issues and the issue with the rate of regaining of grip but the overall model is solid and has potential to be very close to real life under almost all conditions. The issues are aknowledged and being worked on with a patch in the not-too-distant future... I don't think I can give an objective opinion on how good the LFS tyre model currently is and nor can most people. This is because I have been driving LFS so long that I know the model and it has become my reality. The only true objective opinon can come from an unbiased racing driver or the like who has not driven LFS before. :shrug: I think the coming patch will set the benchmark for tyre physics realism though (I may be wrong but that is my current feeling). Even if NK sets the benchmark when it is released I think that the new LFS patch is likely to claim it back when released (I'd say no more than a month later). As for NR2003 and GTP, I can't say I have spent much time with them...

[axus]

no cockpit view ? i thought i read on NK RSC forum there gonna be a cockpit..it's in the unofficial FAQ stiky..or maybe we're not talkin bout the same cockpit view ..

ajp71 said there will be non-cockpit views alongside the cockpit one in contrast to NK naime where there was only the cockpit view.

[filur]

no cockpit view ? i thought i read on NK RSC forum there gonna be a cockpit..it's in the unofficial FAQ stiky..or maybe we're not talkin bout the same cockpit view ..

I think.. <snip> .. i type to slow. :)

LFS and NR2003 are the only two sims i've really felt connected to, pretty much from the start. rFactor and other ISI products seem to need "getting used to", like learning to spot what you don't feel by visuals or sound. Netkar Namie is challenging, but i still find myself spinning out and really not knowing why, or why i can't correct a slide, etc. Nkpro will find it's way onto my pc when it's out for sure, i like how the cars aren't amazingly powerful, and i hope the "it will run on any namie-capable machine" statement is true. :)

[silent_wind]

ajp71 said there will be non-cockpit views alongside the cockpit one in contrast to NK naime where there was only the cockpit view. ok , got it now... well as long as the physics are good and we can have filters it really doesnt matter..
As for NR2003 and GTP, I can't say I have spent much time with them... well, that's a pity , cos you wouda seen the difference..as far as im concerned , i starded LFS from the very first demo ever, as well as the NR2003, so i know them both very well.. try to have some spins with GTP and notice that bite and grip...

as i said before , it really enoys me to start adapting my setups and driving to match those wearied tire behavors if you know what i mean..that's why i've quit LFS for a while now, waiting for somethin to happen bout the tires..i really hope LFS will reach that NR2003 tire physics level !:shrug:

[Satorian]

"it will run on any namie-capable machine"

It will technically run, but not necessarily run well. ;)
It has the same requirements, not recommendations.


@Tweaker:
You say a lot of things and imply some more about nK and the devs behind it that I can't really agree with.
As for nK "propaganda" there has not been much of any hyping from the developer's side. It would have been propaganda if the devs had posted all of their info on forums or advertised like crazy, but calling informations they posted about their own product on their own website propaganda is not only inadequate, it's unfair. nK has went under a lot of people's radar so far and it hasn't been paid much attention to in my opinion.

As for implying that nKpro might be a try to just cash in with a product that was never meant to be the best-possible sim they could create at this moment with all its circumstances seems to be short of an insult when you have read a bit more about nK and kunos and possibly talked to him.

As for the wording and possibly over-complex expressions, keep in mind that kunos is no native speaker, so it might make sense to cut him some slack there. I would not suspect this to be an attempt at obfuscation or inflation.



The bottom line post-release will be that people will be able to try it themselves and some will like it and some will not, as with any sim implementation so far.
I have no doubt though that there were not any corners cut unless necessary and then to the utmost benefit of the simulation aspect, trying to simulate as realistic and authentic as possible.

[Tweaker]

first we're talkin bout NK vs LFS here not "all the other sims" , second you said it yourself "hose statements (if coming from NK officially) could be very well all true.", i think NK guys are pretty serious , i guess.. i also compared it to GTP and NR2003 for more specific references..now , i think you got my idea ayway...

concerning your sweet memories from online, you also forgot to recall why i said "f**** retards, but hey , you couldnt help it but bring that shit up here anyway, huh ? the sad truth is there are some retards online really..but i dont think it's the topic of this thread neither the right place to quote things that happen Online..you may wanna stay on topic :thumb:..and if you have anythin to say bout the online bitching or whatever , you're more than welcome to PM bout it so you'll get the proper answer to that.. once again , let's stay on topic pls. thx.

It was certaintly on the topic that you started by calling me objective. So once you can understand that any simulations are widely acceptable in my book, and I am not so restricted JUST liking LFS... then you would get my point about why such articles could have either truth or falseness to them. I don't care if I post this in 'your' thread, you post the things that are bound to get a reply like this, so violla! Enjoy!

I think your temper overcomes your ability to understand people... thus you don't agree or take into account with what ANYBODY has said. You just read my posts and say "Oh yes, you just said it right there, now you are finished.... who's next?". I mean, your bolded sense of making a point is absolutely not getting anywhere, as it only just makes your fluency and ideas just seem more retarded than the people you meet online.

So I'd rather not see your own thread come to being contradictions 24/7, when your points against us are not valid because of what you do yourself. Now it would be nice if this thread was all peachy, but think about what you suggested in the very first post... rather controversial as it seems to be a impossible thing to discuss with Netkar's current pro release that has not come out yet. Maybe after a month or so of opinions for that game, then it would be nice to discuss it, and you wouldn't end up with where a lot of us has taken this thread.

:thumb:

It will technically run, but not necessarily run well.
It has the same requirements, not recommendations.


@Tweaker:

......

The bottom line post-release will be that people will be able to try it themselves and some will like it and some will not, as with any sim implementation so far.
I have no doubt though that there were not any corners cut unless necessary and then to the utmost benefit of the simulation aspect, trying to simulate as realistic and authentic as possible.
Satorian, the bottom line here is that all the readings, articles, and journals, are just support for what will come out when everyone gets to play the game. You guys read way too deep into why I say the readings could be "False" (actually that is the only part you guys interpret). I've stated already that, the readings mean NOTHING until you've tried the game, so if you want to say a Ferrari has super-hyrdo-tiptronic-allocated-stichted-leather-seams in its rear car seats and actually WANT to understand what that means and believe it... then good for you... but once you go see it/test it, opinions can be drawn... and not come here and ask for the untested tire model to be in LFS :zombie:. That is like asking someone if they want a super-fast Punto and they don't know what a Punto is... thus the results are not satisfying. Clearly, the readings could be support for how good the game is (or in this case the tire model), but is it a crime to think there could also be a chance that the game isn't what people expected? Come on now, you are around RSC enough to understand that point of view. And I don't think Kunos's language are issues, his english is perfectly fine, and what he is trying to describe is probably exactly how he intends it.

[Satorian]

Satorian, the bottom line here is that all the readings, articles, and journals, are just support for what will come out when everyone gets to play the game.

Uh, yes. Like with any other software and any other dev report. Can't see anything at fault there.


You guys

I'm not in league with anyone and would appreciate not being lumped together with some abstract user group I don't stand for.


read way too deep into why I say the readings could be "False" (actually that is the only part you guys interpret). I've stated already that, the readings mean NOTHING until you've tried the game, so if you want to say a Ferrari has super-hyrdo-tiptronic-allocated-stichted-leather-seams in its rear car seats and actually WANT to understand what that means and believe it... then good for you... but once you go see it/test it, opinions can be drawn... and not come here and ask for the untested tire model to be in LFS :zombie:.

I never did that, so, again, don't lump me in. I don't know either how well the tyre implementation in nKpro turns out. I was just stating that you should not label kunos' explanations of his work and the effort of giving us some behind-the-scenes info "propaganda", "hype" and "mumbo jumbo".


That is like asking someone if they want a super-fast Punto and they don't know what a Punto is... thus the results are not satisfying. Clearly, the readings could be support for how good the game is (or in this case the tire model), but is it a crime to think there could also be a chance that the game isn't what people expected?

Find me a quote of me criticizing you for remaining cautios and critical. Again, I was stating prior that I found your slighting of a developer giving insight into his work a bit incomprehensible from my point of view.
I won't know either how nKpro will turn out until I tried it, but I definitely appreciate the information that has been given so far and often contained answers to questions that arose on the forums and contained a fair amount of response to the community.

I would very much like to have you quote which statements of kunos exactly are hype, mumbo jumbo (whatever abstract negative connotation you have there) and propaganda, because I fail to see the base on which you make these accusations and would like to know where our perception differs.

[Vykos69]

I just wonder how you can compare a nonexistant game (not yet) and its physics to existant LFS... And say, You hope, LFS will reach nk level... You had a time machine, or what? Lets talk about this in 3 or 4 weeks again, when nk is finally out.

[Tweaker]

I think your are still reading way too in depth with those specific words Satorian. I am not even going to bother trying to explain it, because overall, the one thing that will make us shut up (oh no I put you in the lump) is when we play Netkar Pro for ourselves. Then can we only see how valid or invalid our expectations are.

Not going to bother with this thread anymore, just another typical pre-release fight over issues not many of us even know so much about, as well as protection of people's own expectations. Afterall, a buyer wants to know positive and negatives before making a decision, and it is natural that assumptions are made. But to have someone think your assumptions are completely impossible, just goes to show that people only have the positive attitude for something they've never even tried :rolleyes:

I am pretty sure Netkar will be a good game, but there is always a "BUT"!!!! Maybe not in your world :)

EDIT: Oh and as for those words, please note my side examples that it was not directed completely at NK or Kunos. rFactor was my prime example, and those words only hold truth to that game in my opinion at least ;)

[silent_wind]

dudes ! i was comparing the tire models to NS2003/GTP too, and as i already said, that's a specific comparison there...so stop sayin im just bring up NK only.. my idea was to compare it with , in my opinion , the best existing tire physics that are once again NR2003/GTP , and then wanted to know what you think of that upcoming NK pro in that tire "sector"...

im gonna get some sleep now , i'll see ya tomorrow..

[silent_wind]

ok , i'll be back here when NK pro is out ! we're certainaly gonna have somethin to talk about ;)

see ya soon !

[Gabkicks]

Here is where the personal preference comes in. For me the only sims without the floaty feeling are the GPL, nkar namie and LFS. Everything else feels just floaty with little or none feeling at all. Btw. rFactor is way better though than the rest of isi creations but it still lacks here. imho

I think the LX6 would be a prefect ride if there was a completely flat track on LFS. The car just doesn't like bumps (or me). But again comparing sims comes always down to personal preference. For some people rfactor behaves exactly like they expect a real car to behave or they just like it. Same thing with every sim :)

does RBR set up correctly feel floaty to you?

[silent_wind]

does RBR set up correctly feel floaty to you?
RBR is good too..

[Satorian]

I think this a rather weird thread. I've read my share about tyre models, yet I don't know how I would have to apply the quoted statement by kunos to simulations and certainly don't know in what technical way LFS and nKP differ. Additionally nKP hasn't even been released yet, so discussing advantages and disadvantages doesn't make much sense yet to me.

Let's bury the hatchet and stop this childish sim trench wars, from both sides.
Of course I'm open to a reasonable debate once it's released. ;)

Enjoy your simming with whatever you prefer.

[tristancliffe]

Ya. I've bought both because I think both are valuable projects and I appreciate the effort going into both. That, and the fact that competition is always good. Hopefully the two will inspire eachother to greater things.

My thoughts exactly. Plus it means I'll have two sims where I can beat Kev (although not by much these days - he's much quicker than he used to be and [driverexcuse] I haven't had the opportunity to practice as much, and getting used to ECCI. But this week I'm at home so I can hopefully have a bit of a play, but I'm back to Logitech pedals as the ECCI wouldn't fit in the car with all my other junk :( [/driverexcuses]

[Bramski]

LFS=playable.


nIKpro=fictional until release,


If anyone has played nkpro and has seen the difference then please step forward and enlighten us, otherwise, pull up a chair and wait until the 10th april to commment.

[tristancliffe]

According to people who HAVE played it, the difference between Namie and nKP (I forget it's nickname) is massive, in a positive sense. But of course, the rest of us are merely making guestimated assumptions based on Stefano's ramblings of the last few years, the stuff we already know for fact, and an idealism that Stefano shares.

Much like with LFS - whilst we don't KNOW what's in the patch we can take a guess. For all we know the new tyre physics could COMPLETELY change the feel of the game, and make it realistic in a way we didn't think possible. So in a way you could say:

LFS = playable, but upcoming patch has almost zero knowns
nKP (whats the I for in your abbreviation?) = unplayable, but upcoming release has a lot of info from the dev(s).

I'm not saying one will be better than the other - I'm quite prepared for both sims to coexist in harmony, albeit with different feels. There isn't one single tyre manufacturer or phyisist who can come up with equations to model tyre behaviour in real time (or even non-real time for that matter), so the chances of two computer simulations based on different phylosophies feeling the same to us is marginal at best. And I don't think that will necessarily make on better than the other. LFS is very special - the car behaviour is unnervingly realistic, but I believe that nKP will, either on release (doubtful) or after a few patches (more likely) give LFS a run for it's money. And I believe that Scavier are up for the challenge of staying ahead.

Sorry to ramble, but I don't want to become a nK lover in an LFS world, or an LFS lover in a nK world. I want to be a realistic simulator lover in a world filled with nK's and LFS's, and more if it's made. Maybe even one day ISI/Gmotor/2inchgapbetweenroadandtyres will get a look in, but it's a long way off I fear.

[jtr99]

This is probably a stupid thing to say and will only result in stirring up trouble, but: when someone says they think tyre model A is more realistic than tyre model B, how often does that really mean, "I can keep it on the road in game A, but in game B I keep having these frustrating spins"?

I like the tyre model in NR2003/GTP very much, but I wouldn't know how to tell you whether it's realistic, having not driven any big heavy 750HP cars on slicks.

It strikes me as entirely possible that the tyre model in LFS right now is closer to accurate than we would like to admit, and what is getting in the way is the lack of visceral feedback which makes slides in a real car much easier to catch. I'd really like it if Scawen released a physics patch tomorrow that made the GTRs a bit less horrible through low-speed corners. I'd drive around feeling proud of my improved ability to handle these beasts. But imagine that a week later someone who really knew their tyre physics then told me, "Actually, the old LFS model was closer to reality, and this new patch has overcompensated in the other direction to make the game more playable". How could I mount an argument without a PhD in physics and a lot of time on a test track in the relevant cars?

[Tweaker]

All in all, I just think people like LFS (or any other simulation actually) because it 'feels right'... regardless if they have ever driven a real race car (or any car for this matter) at high speeds or not. Some like the way LFS feels, some like the way GTR, or GPL feels... they all have different characteristics. Most of the time, the opinions of what people prefer with one simulation over another is just how good and comfortable they feel when driving that particular simulation. A lot of people get frustrated about LFS sliding all over the place, and wish it had grippy physics like some other simulations. However there are people that disagree and consider the complete opposite, where LFS feels great and control problems aren't an issue at all, while other sims just are hard to comprehend as realistic. It is opinions of both worlds and nobody is going to like every 'simulation'.

Toughest part about the simulation biz if you ask me. Which is ultimately the whole reason why threads such as these pop up every now and then on so many forums. It ISN'T a case of "fanboys", that is the incorrect word for anyone liking a simulation, it is more of a personal preference... Being a fan of something surely is your own preference, but nowadays, simulation enthusiasts are only marked 'fanboys' because there is no other way to describe a personal preference, even the ridiculers that call us those names have this tag of fanboyism, but they try and act like they really don't.

[jtr99]

Kev -- basically I agree with you: my limited experience also suggests that things are just a little bit wrong in LFS. My post was speculation about what might be behind some of the complaints.

[tristancliffe]

In the summer I'll do a three way comparison of LFS, nKP and a real F3 car on slicks... And if I can manage it I'll get onboard footage to try and assist with that.

The lack of physical feedback, other than the poor technology of FFB (come on hardware manufacturers, surely you can do better) really is the biggest 'problem' of any simulation, and it must be tempted for any game designer to bump up the grip values a bit to make it more playable - a good example of that is the rF's F1 cars. Sure I'm not fast in them, but I've barely practiced. Yet you can do silly things with the cars at any speed but it just refuses, almost, to spin. LFS on the other hand takes a more realistic approach by saying 'okay, so you can't feel the forces, but I'm not going to nanny you around with extra grip or anything'. As soon as Scawen fixes the tyre issues (or rather improves as I doubt what we get in the next patch will be perfect, but then nothing is) to do with low speed and grip recovery then we'll see the cars behaving more realistically. Getting rid of the high nose bug will also make the cars a bit easier to drive I think, as the high front low rear setup makes the cars very difficult to drive consistently fast on the limit. With a less compromised setup i.e. sensible suspension values all round, it'll be a lot closer for everyone. The quick guys will still be quick and the slow guys will still be slow, but the margin between the two should close I think.

There are so many areas LFS can be improved. None of them are huge improvements, but just little tweaks here and there, thats all. nKP is unknown at the moment, but it's been in [private] development for about the same time as LFS. The difference of course is that Kunos has gone for the single seater approach to begin with, and has a more pure 'unmolested' development period, whilst LFS has had a more public evolution with road cars (until S2). I think it's fascinating seeing the two approaches, and I wonder how much of nK Scavier will look at, and how much of LFS Stefano has checked out... I bet they say very little, but in truth I bet they'll have a play or two to see what they like about it.

[Satorian]

There are so many areas LFS can be improved. None of them are huge improvements, but just little tweaks here and there, thats all. nKP is unknown at the moment, but it's been in [private] development for about the same time as LFS. The difference of course is that Kunos has gone for the single seater approach to begin with, and has a more pure 'unmolested' development period, whilst LFS has had a more public evolution with road cars (until S2). I think it's fascinating seeing the two approaches, and I wonder how much of nK Scavier will look at, and how much of LFS Stefano has checked out... I bet they say very little, but in truth I bet they'll have a play or two to see what they like about it.

There is a difference though in kunos not having worked fulltime on it for most of that time and from I could gather I wouldn't be surprised if it lay on his HDD untouched for weeks at a time when it still was a hobby project.

There are things I don't like about LFS, like parts of the tyre modelling (don't know whether it's the model or the data) and the sound quality, but I think the LFS devs are all very talented inidivduals and will get things right, given the time. My trust in that is why I'm keeping up with the LFS development without spending much time playing it at the moment. (According to my lfsworld.net stats I have driven less than 1200 miles. :))

[silent_wind]

well NK pro is gonna be released today... im really curious to check it out...

[spankmeyer]

Watching from aside at the downfall of gaming industry, I consider us lucky that we can choose what sim we like the most. Not like EA or Sony is ramming down Gran Tourismo5 2k6 John Madden edition down our throats...

[axus]

Guess you won't know till 12pm CET :razz:

[ajp71]

Useful comparison of sims:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_racing_simulators

[maczo]

Useful comparison of sims:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_racing_simulators

"being off the racing line affects grip" <-- anyone know what that's supposed to mean? Like better grip on rubber which is on racing line? Or ...?

[axus]

"being off the racing line affects grip" <-- anyone know what that's supposed to mean? Like better grip on rubber which is on racing line? Or ...?

Yes, and being the marbles off the racing line decreases the grip. I'm surprised at the 12 flat spot points per tyre. Did they mean 12x3 - like the LFS model is 16x3 or is it 12x1 or 4x3?

[ajp71]

"being off the racing line affects grip" <-- anyone know what that's supposed to mean? Like better grip on rubber which is on racing line? Or ...?

I assume it means their is more grip on the racing line (due to the rubber) and IRL the marbles off the line can make some corners undrivable off the line, like Gerards @ Mallory can have some suprises in store for those who try and go round the outside and the tunnel @ Monaco (ask Alonso). I thought N2003 had this although LFS has rubber shown visually it does not effect grip because it would be inconsistant between clients and too much for the server to send out.

[bobvanvliet]

Useful comparison of sims:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_racing_simulators

lol, Scawen could base his to-do list on that, making one uninterrupted green row behind LFS :D

[banshee56]

Well, at midnight Italian time, is your chance to find out.

http://www.netkar-pro.com/eng/download.html

[ajp71]

Well, now is your chance to find out. NetKar Pro is OUT!!

http://www.netkar-pro.com/eng/download.html

that was a nasty joke :chair:

[banshee56]

Sorry, edited post for accuracy. My fingers got ahead of my eyes.

EDIT: Midnight Italian time?? WOOOOOOT :huepfenic Thats 6PM EST in the states. Do my eyes deceive me? Does North America get to test a new car sim at the same time as Europe?? :jawdrop:

[ajp71]

Yes, and being the marbles off the racing line decreases the grip. I'm surprised at the 12 flat spot points per tyre. Did they mean 12x3 - like the LFS model is 16x3 or is it 12x1 or 4x3?

I suppose you've got to balance the CPU needs and from what I've heard the engine model is more detailed than LFS (which seems very generalised).

[axus]

But either they have no flat spots across the tyre which makes it kinda dodgy because I think that makes quite a big difference in LFS (if you follow the pressure bars in F9 view when you have a flatspot on an overpressured tyre or something) or they have one flat spot which is 90degrees of your tyre
(which is kinda dodgy)... or, my guess, there is an inconsistency in the way data is presented on that page and nK has 36 flat spots or a 12x3 arrangement.

[ajp71]

I think nK has either 36 (12 x 3) or 12 (4 x 3) points, every decent sim since GPL has had IMO readings. Flat spots aren't that important, LFS is the first sim to have them but they never really felt like they were missing from the Papy enigne, so long as nK creates a flatspot patch on a 1/4 of your tire you'd definatley know about it anyway :D

[Vykos69]

I think nK has either 36 (12 x 3) or 12 (4 x 3) points, every decent sim since GPL has had IMO readings. Flat spots aren't that important, LFS is the first sim to have them but they never really felt like they were missing from the Papy enigne, so long as nK creates a flatspot patch on a 1/4 of your tire you'd definatley know about it anyway :D
That is - honestly - a quite stupid answer. Because LFS is the First Sim, where you can really destroy your tire a real way with brake-flatspots.

[eindewege]

Indeed, just do an emergency stop with a few hot FXR tires, see how many tires you can pop in one go :D

[ajp71]

Lock up in N2003 and you'll still damage and blow tires just as badly as LFS, only N2003 has only got one IMO sampling per tire meaning it can run large (42 car) grids on machines out of the arc, these people really shouldn't be forgotten about as most are still contently racing GPL which they've been racing since 1998.

[axus]

It's funny how you never think about these things until you experience them. I went and messed around with LFS 0.04Q and I immediately felt disconnected from the car after a burnout because the tyres didn't feel hot. I felt disconnected after going on the grass because the tyres didn't feel dirty. When I locked under braking I missed the twitch in my wheel as the tyre goes over the flat spot (that's another thing that I'm sceptical about in nK - Force Feedback... although naime had great feedback in the Formula car). You don't really feel its lack until you experience it in a great sim where you feel connected to the car. I'm sure the same will go for aerodynamics improvements when they come - the feeling that you get that extra drag when you brake... and the extra grip that comes with the added downforce... Any sim that has good immersion feels stunning. A sim where you feel where the limit is and if you spin you know exactly why you spun, be it setup, road camber, tyre lock-up's, wheelspin, etc. It doesn't matter how much is in there as long as what is in there is made properly and you haven't experienced a certain aspect of physics that is not in there thoroughly in another sim.

[ajp71]

nK's FF should be as good as the physics as from what I've heard it just uses the torque on the steering rack straight out of the sim.

[colcob]

I think poor old kunos is going to suffer a class action suit from hundreds of FF wheel owners who had their entire houses shaken to the foundations by the crazy FF :)

Its kind of good, but there seems to be no damping or cutoff to stop the wheel completely going crazy, so if you flatspot, or even worse knock the alignment of a front wheel out, your wheel will shake you desk to pieces.

[deggis]

I don't the FF in nK. It's too rough and clunky, I had to set it from the profiler (as the FF setting in the game doesnt work!) to 20-40 % but now I can't feel anything. If I set it higher I have a constant feeling that it will break the whole FF motor. :pillepall

[axus]

Regarding the tyres... and the whole physics in general... I did not get a good experience. It felt very distant and remote. While, as colcob says, the car does relatively predictable things I don't think they have it quite spot on yet. Tyre physics puts me in mind of an early S1 version with a lot of features strapped to a relatively inaccurate basic equation containing tyre load, slip angle, slip ratio etc. If they can get that equation right it will feel great. This will take them some time though - it took LFS ages as you know (and still isn't there, but from what I hear the patch should sort that out)... plus they have many more features in there now so they will have a hard time knowing where the issue is - it's like trying to tweak 15 variables to get the right thing... good luck. Overall, IMO by no means a match for LFS.

[ajp71]

I don't think we ever signed a license so Kunos could just of screwed himself big time :D

As for the tires they are easy to flatspot and unlike LFS a flatspot makes it undrivable, probably more realistic in that sense tbh.

[axus]

I don't think we ever signed a license so Kunos could just of screwed himself big time :D

As for the tires they are easy to flatspot and unlike LFS a flatspot makes it undrivable, probably more realistic in that sense tbh.

*sniff* *sniff*
Do I smell someone dodging the issue?...

[danowat]

Netkar pro FF destroyed my DFP, desk and marraige, my wife thought the world was caving in last night when my DFP destroyed itself, my desk fell to bits and I woke her......

It's ok dear, I only flat spotted my tyres............

Dan,

[Tweaker]

Not entirely related to the tires, but you happen to notice that the suspension arms breaking is not working all that great?

I hit a wall, and most times the wheel just spins like it is on a stick, and the suspension arms are passing through the wheel, and the wheel is spinning and tossing itself in IMPOSSIBLE directions. Not to mention, when you hit a wall and stop the front wheel keeps spinning/rotating, and kicking up dust. Not only that, but if you start to move forward, and the wheel is broken off and laying at a 90 degree angle (perpendicular to forward movment), the wheel starts to spin? LOL. It is all too wierd, and many other parts of that damage just act strange. I once had my left front wheel flop over onto my right side through the cockpit, and it started to bounce and stretch wildly. Kind of buggy damage that is more than just 'on tethers', it is 'crazy tethers' !!! :D

No wonder a lot of the preview videos were masking some of the damage scenes. A lot of stuff is just embarassing to see when you try and match up with all that hype that was created.

[ajp71]

I personally think that nK does get the damage model to be more realisitc than LFS, one hit out like IRL rather than a slightly damage suspension like in LFS. The visual damage model is pretty non-exsistant I don't understand what is so fabulous about wheel tethers (Tristan will disagree), seeing as these cars don't have them IRL seems like hidding something to me.

Also the marker boards are pathetic you hit them and they explode with a little white puff, better than the car going through them and saves calculations for flying boards I suppose.

[axus]

Still no comment on the grip model?

[Dethred]

Grip model is loads better than LFS. There is a defined level of grip, and better yet, the Force Feedback actually gives you a good idea of where the threshold of grip is. While any kind of damage to the car's tires or suspension make the light on my desk fall off, when the car is in good condition you actually can feel the suspension load up and rebound on the FF. When the car passes over its ability to "hold the road" there is a real sense of urgency as the resistance of the FF wheel goes completely slack. Overall 100% better than LFS.

And those complaining about the breaking of the suspension arms, at least they break! LFS barely even shows physical damage on the open wheeled cars.

[MyBoss]

lol, I was driving like 5kmh, and touched the wall, and the arm broke.

Anyways, the tire model is pretty good. But the fact that the sound and the shifting lag is so damn poor just irritates me, and I think the devs made a mistake when they leaved out so many things from the demo. Like the HUD on the wheel.

[ajp71]

lol, I was driving like 5kmh, and touched the wall, and the arm broke.


They don't always break you can just bend suspension arms by hitting walls lightly and from excessive kerbing.

For those who don't have the full version: The downforce cars are better IMO and you can flat shift them unlike the FF.

[ajp71]

Overall it's growing on me and it seems like we'll make up for the 3 hours of faffing around last night :) Good to hear there's a patch on the way. Actually the sounds aren't too bad at 50ms, more realistic than LFS no dobut and they sound less step like than at 200ms.

Does nK have cold brake modeling? found that the FF1600 locked up its rear wheels on 68% brake bias on my outlap.

[colcob]

Is it just me or does anyone else find all of the tracks extremely flat, boring and lacking in any kind of character?

[ajp71]

Is it just me or does anyone else find all of the tracks extremely flat, boring and lacking in any kind of character?

Yep, but that stunning looking version of the 'ring should be on the way as one of the first addon tracks ;)

[danowat]

Is it just me or does anyone else find all of the tracks extremely flat, boring and lacking in any kind of character?

Yep, they have no "life", mind you, it could be because I have yet to see another car on the track (no AI and no online yet)

Dan,

[ajp71]

http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=249827

[ajp71]

http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=250279

[silent_wind]

i really think the tire physics are awsome!! i read someone was comparing them to the S1 tire physics..you gotta be kiding me dude! how dare you ? jeez !

the suspension is really good too compering it to the FOX & FX8 one's.. im hoping LFS will reach the same level someday..especially in terms of tire physics !

as for the damage model, it's way better and realistic anyway ! no question bout that..

im off to NKp now...see ya after the patch (if there's ever any patch coming out soon) ..

[silent_wind]

http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=250279
good post, see, im sure all the small issues are gona be adressed soon..furthermore, it's just the first release you know.. and as i said , the tire physics are a lot better no matter what issues you can find on this first release...:smileypul

[colcob]

I quite like the tyre model, it feels pretty good. Although i must say the tyre sounds are nowhere near as communicative as LFS tyre sounds. There is basically one tyre scrub sound which plays if you are slipping which is a kind of ISI type 'sshhhhh' sort of noise. There isnt any chirping or squealing or squaling that tell you the different stages of approaching the limit like in LFS (or even GP3 for that matter). And there is hardly any sound at all from the tyres under braking, so it's kind of hard to threshold brake.

I'm told that slicks dont make much of a noise in real life so I guess its fair enough, although the times I've been karting on tarmac they've squealed like stuck pigs, so I dont know quite how much truth there is in that.

[KiDCoDEa]

whatever u say about pro u could say about the free version namie.
and in my view its not good stuff.

[ajp71]

whatever u say about pro u could say about the free version namie.
and in my view its not good stuff.

Stop bashing it for no reason there are big differences between namie and Pro (not all of them good) if you honestly think the physics are the same you either haven't had enough time with it or are totally blind.

[axus]

Stop bashing it for no reason there are big differences between namie and Pro (not all of them good) if you honestly think the physics are the same you either haven't had enough time with it or are totally blind.

Nah, I think he's merely comparing it to the latest Release Candidate copy of LFS S2 Patch R that he has on his computer. Everything seems bland and boring to that :razz:.

[Cue-Ball]

Grip model is loads better than LFS. There is a defined level of grip, and better yet, the Force Feedback actually gives you a good idea of where the threshold of grip is. While any kind of damage to the car's tires or suspension make the light on my desk fall off, when the car is in good condition you actually can feel the suspension load up and rebound on the FF. When the car passes over its ability to "hold the road" there is a real sense of urgency as the resistance of the FF wheel goes completely slack. Overall 100% better than LFS.

And those complaining about the breaking of the suspension arms, at least they break! LFS barely even shows physical damage on the open wheeled cars.Agreed 100%. netKar has a lot of things that need fixing, but the physics model is not one of them. This is the only sim I've ever played that is better than LFS in the force feedback department.

[axus]

Agreed 100%. netKar has a lot of things that need fixing, but the physics model is not one of them. This is the only sim I've ever played that is better than LFS in the force feedback department.

I dunno about the FF... I tried a couple of test:

1 going into a corner fast and turning in sharply to create understeer and let go of the wheel:
The wheel stayed exactly where I left it. No understeer feedback whatsoever - if anyone tells me they get understeer FF it is a placebo effect.

2 going out of a corner with enough throttle to spin the car and letting go of the wheel:
The wheel reacted late... way later than it should but this may be down to controller lag, but eventually it did just about a wheel in LFS would have done.

3. flatspotting the tyres:
I wonder, how deep a flatspot is... let's be ambitious and assume 2mm (this is waaay too much in my opinon but anyway). Now imagine your tyre bouncing over a 2mm dip in the road... that's what it should feel like through the wheel... TBH it feels like its a few cm deep. Way too harsh IMO. If you look at what real racing drivers say, they actually say its because of the vibrations and blur that they cannot drive a flatpotted car. (BTW this blur would be neat to simulate along with dirty visor and mirrors)

4. shaking the wheel violently on the straight:
The wheel became lighter with every swing. :Looking_a

5. going over curbs and bumps:
This is about the only thing that feels right, albiet no better than LFS.

Maybe someone else should repeat these? I dunno, maybe it is just my controller lag which is severe tbh (id say .1-.2s).

[ebola]

LOL LOL danowat :D :D

[deggis]

I think we should have only one nK Pro thread, we have now 3 of them (this, one in the off topic and one in the general racing (huh?) discussion).

ps. And ajp71, that Green Hell screenshot is just a render. AFAIK it's part of the GT 70' mod which have been under developement for 1-2 years or something. And the mod looks pretty dead now.

[ajp71]

^^ Did you read the last post in the thread?

and why not make this thread the nK thread seeing as it isn't in the main LFS section and is longer

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=98614#post98614

[Gabkicks]

i agree with axus... the ffb was not very impressive. you cant really feel understeer or oversteer through the steering wheel very much.

[silent_wind]

it's was about tires comparison basically..so, i dont think it's the same thread as the others...now, people always go off topic, what ya can do about it ?

[silent_wind]

i agree with axus... the ffb was not very impressive. you cant really feel understeer or oversteer through the steering wheel very much.
AFAIK, the FF feels and works good for me..now dudes, it's about TIRES here.. stay on the topic. Thx !

[Gabkicks]

tires and ffb go together. i like the feeling of going from grip to no grip a bit quicker than in lfs and the way grip returns quicker. but i dunno about the feel of the car overall being realistic.

i am perfectly on topic

[Shotglass]

i really think the tire physics are awsome!! i read someone was comparing them to the S1 tire physics..you gotta be kiding me dude! how dare you ? jeez !

um ? no ... have you ever tried the f1600 on the skidpad ? try to creat oversteer ... you can hold that thing at full 90° with full throttle easily ... and it gets worse ... if you countersteer too much the car will suddenly snap back form a full 90 ... theres just no way any car would ever react like the nk cars in a slide

[silent_wind]

i am perfectly on topic
:D yeah you are..it's just that some dudes here started talkin about some other stuff you know... i also agree with your point of view.:thumb:

[jtw62074]

um ? no ... have you ever tried the f1600 on the skidpad ? try to creat oversteer ... you can hold that thing at full 90° with full throttle easily ... and it gets worse ... if you countersteer too much the car will suddenly snap back form a full 90 ... theres just no way any car would ever react like the nk cars in a slide

Why do so many people perpetually insist this behavior is impossible? If you have more rear grip than the front this is indeed what will happen provided you don't yaw the car so quickly it doesn't get a chance to straighten back up.

NkPro is using real tire data from Avon, which is pretty tough to beat. (That data is available publically at their web site, by the way, so anybody can use it). Seems to me Stefano got the combined lat/long force stuff down just right. Feels very good to me indeed :)

[Tweaker]

I think the point he was getting at was the fact that you can crank the steering to full lock, and there is actually hardly any understeer or even oversteer. It is so neutral and so stable. Driving the track normally, it is very possible to just do full-lock turns and you will be just fine.

If you crank your wheel at 90 degrees, of course you won't get oversteer from that, like on this skidpad, but I think it is very hard to create any oversteer with the little 1600 unless you have some uneven surface or just do some wild control behaviour. If you mount the rain tires (or whatever those RG tires are), try the car with those. To an extent, those feels kind of nice, and have a bit more possibility of sliding. They still have grip, but they are loose for pushing it faster (but those tires have lower grip levels anyways, so oh well).

EDIT: Doh, some words for understeer, I meant to say oversteer.

And if we really want to talk tires, maybe wait till this new LFS patch too.

[Shotglass]

Why do so many people perpetually insist this behavior is impossible?

for one its based on experience (havent doen any slides like that in a real car yet but ive done plenty with rc cars on all sorts of tyres) and with time you get a feel for what a car can do and what it cant possibly do
and its also that kunos mentions that you can feel the 3 stages of his tyre model (grip ... slipping at the edge ... and sliding) and somebody here voiced his concerns that it sounds like the model switches between those stages instead of a smoother more realistic transition which incidently is exactly what it feels like

If you have more rear grip than the front this is indeed what will happen provided you don't yaw the car so quickly it doesn't get a chance to straighten back up.

the problems begin with the way you enter that slide ... you step on the gas pedal and the tail starts to overtake the front ... so far so good ... but once the tails stars to step out the car instantly snaps (so much for not yawing quickly) to a full 90 and stays there
but it gets worse ... the usual reaction to this is lifting your foot from the loud pedal and countersteering ... the result of this is that the car instantly turns a 180° and you find yourself still sliding perpendicular to the track but facing the other way this time

[tr1ax]

RC Cars, lmao.

[Shotglass]

you do realise that im replying to someone whos afaik using essential the same tyre physics code for a rc car simd and a "real" car simd and that in the real world pyhics are the same for all cars regardless of the size dont you ?

[Tweaker]

I don't see how an R/C car and real car tire can compare. Maybe Todd can explain that, but I find it very hard to believe they are the same. A pebble or dimple is about the equivalent of a pothole or tree log. And to have the car weigh in to about the weight of your floorpanel carpet, quite a lot differs... in huge ways.... especially if you have experience through 'feeling' the car though remote control :zombie:

[joshdifabio]

you do realise that im replying to someone whos afaik using essential the same tyre physics code for a rc car simd and a "real" car simd and that in the real world pyhics are the same for all cars regardless of the size dont you ?

Um... no not really, considering the tyres are completely different in design.

[r4ptor]

The "lack of sound" feedback when pushing to the limit or blocking tires may perhaps be accurate, BUT I think they developers forgot that this is a sim - We can't feel how the car is behaving, so ultimatly I would say we are being handicapped.

I've driven several laps in nK - actually so many that I did the lamest laptimes in LFS last night, as I my mind was geared toward the nK gearbox ;)

But still, every lap in nK it was like I was doing it the for the first time - I couldn't figure out the limits of the tires, especially on the braking zones - I found it to be very difficult to sence if I was braking on limit or actually blocking :( Sometimes the car would turn itself slightly - I guess I was blocking the tires since it did that.

The dev's could have implemented some FFB reaction so you could sense the tires more clearly.

I've never driven a Formula Ford, so I can't tell what thats like (or how the F1600 is more or less supposed to be like), but unless someone corrects me, I find it hard to believe that you can't feel the grip level of the tires.

There is ONLY sound and no feedback on the wheel - it does get harder to turn when ur in a curve, but other than that it actually feel like ur on a silky smooth road, especially in the turns.

I can feel the road - ie. the bumps, the curbs - flatspots are the only tire related effect I can feel, but other than that it just feels wrong to me.

The FFB is defenatly better on some areas when compared to LFS - I find it to be more crisp, but in LFS, you get the sence of the tires more clearly, wich in my openion is more important than feeling bumps and curbs.

Am I making any sence here?

[Tweaker]

Am I making any sence here?
Yeah, somewhat, but I don't know what game you are talking about in some parts :tilt:

[r4ptor]

Yeah, somewhat, but I don't know what game you are talking about in some parts :tilt:

:( The thread is about netKar Pro and LFS - I'm talking about those two.

Yeah, I know, I know.. only wrote nK instead of nK PRO, but figured it would be obvious :D

[Tweaker]

No no, I meant some sentances... I don't know what game they apply too.

[jtw62074]

I think the point he was getting at was the fact that you can crank the steering to full lock, and there is actually hardly any understeer or even oversteer. It is so neutral and so stable. Driving the track normally, it is very possible to just do full-lock turns and you will be just fine.


Ok, I must have misunderstood. Still, this is isn't necessarily wrong. Really depends on the wheelbase/cg height ratio. If it's greater than a certain value then you'll start to get understeer at some point. If it's lower than that you can very well continue more towards oversteer as you increase steering lock (to a point of course, as you said, approaching 90 degrees isn't going to do it.)

As long as the tire data and model, plus the mechanical stuff on the car is right, the behavior should be correct. I haven't played much with the setup in nKPro yet so haven't really examined anything too closely.

My point really was that if you get a real car to some huge sliding angle, then neutralize the steering and release the throttle, it is entirely possible that the car will straighten up. You can really design a car to do more or less what you want it to do, so just because that behavior exists in one sim and not in another (of two different cars and sets of tires), doesn't mean one of them is wrong.


If you crank your wheel at 90 degrees, of course you won't get oversteer from that, like on this skidpad, but I think it is very hard to create any oversteer with the little 1600 unless you have some uneven surface or just do some wild control behaviour. If you mount the rain tires (or whatever those RG tires are), try the car with those. To an extent, those feels kind of nice, and have a bit more possibility of sliding. They still have grip, but they are loose for pushing it faster (but those tires have lower grip levels anyways, so oh well).

EDIT: Doh, some words for understeer, I meant to say oversteer.

And if we really want to talk tires, maybe wait till this new LFS patch too.

I haven't tried switching tires yet. Will give that a go. Thanks for the tip.

[jtw62074]

I don't see how an R/C car and real car tire can compare. Maybe Todd can explain that, but I find it very hard to believe they are the same. A pebble or dimple is about the equivalent of a pothole or tree log. And to have the car weigh in to about the weight of your floorpanel carpet, quite a lot differs... in huge ways.... especially if you have experience through 'feeling' the car though remote control :zombie:

Assuming a clean surface, of course: We've actually been testing foam RC tires on a machine for quite awhile now in order to find out what the lateral force vs. slip angle curves look like for different sizes and durometer readings, and indeed they're quite similar to full sized, air filled, rubber tires. The cornering stiffness is a lot lower (peaks are at very high slip angles), but the curves look the same overall. So really you can model these RC car tires with the same model you use for big cars. Just change a few parameters here and there and off you go.

Granted, this was not done on a carpet surface with electric tires, although we may do that in the future too. I expect them to look pretty similar. It's really just about finding what slip angle the peak is at as well as overall grip as a function of load so you have load sensitivity. All tires look pretty much the same in that regard, even the tiny little ones :)

[jtw62074]

for one its based on experience (havent doen any slides like that in a real car yet but ive done plenty with rc cars on all sorts of tyres) and with time you get a feel for what a car can do and what it cant possibly do
and its also that kunos mentions that you can feel the 3 stages of his tyre model (grip ... slipping at the edge ... and sliding) and somebody here voiced his concerns that it sounds like the model switches between those stages instead of a smoother more realistic transition which incidently is exactly what it feels like


I wouldn't worry too much about how the transition occurs. Stefano has had a lot of experience with tire models. I'd bet it transitions just fine. Isn't he using a Pacejka model?


the problems begin with the way you enter that slide ... you step on the gas pedal and the tail starts to overtake the front ... so far so good ... but once the tails stars to step out the car instantly snaps (so much for not yawing quickly) to a full 90 and stays there
but it gets worse ... the usual reaction to this is lifting your foot from the loud pedal and countersteering ... the result of this is that the car instantly turns a 180° and you find yourself still sliding perpendicular to the track but facing the other way this time

Oh, ok. I haven't tried that in nKPro as I'm usually driving pretty nicely without a lot of sliding around. However, if something sudden happens right around 90 degrees that could indeed be a bug. I've had problems with that in the past too. Took awhile to figure out what was wrong and fix it though. I'll give it a try and see if it feels like mine did.

Granted, don't get too upset about that. As long as you're driving in the normal range or just a bit over that, a bug like I had really doesn't effect the handling at all. I.e., everything's just fine until you really get the back end waaaay out. It's a bit like low speed models where a car will float around a bit when it's supposed to be sitting still, or slide slowly down a hill even with the wheels locked. It doesn't effect the realism at all once you're going more than a foot per second or whatever (some very, very low speed). Lots of professional vehicle models used in engineering research have had this same problem. Many folks just ignore it because they don't really care what happens at anything less than typical driving or racing speeds.

[Shotglass]

Um... no not really, considering the tyres are completely different in design.

no theyre not
rc car tyres are rubber tyres with somewhat stiff sidewalls and a foam filling that gives the whole tyre about the stiffness a real cars tyre would have scaled down ... theres no reason why rc tyres shoudl behave completely different from real ones
and considering todds post the same holds even for cellular rubber tyres
of course there will be differences in how the tyres react to bending sidewalls (especially on cellular rubber tyres) but for one afaik lfs is still the only game that simulates sidewalls at all and the effects of this shouldnt lead to entirely different behaviours
so what i gather from todds testing is that any piece of rubber you press on a strip of tarmac will behave more or less the same regardless of its size

I wouldn't worry too much about how the transition occurs. Stefano has had a lot of experience with tire models. I'd bet it transitions just fine. Isn't he using a Pacejka model?

the transitions feel very dodgy to me though ... they happen extremely suddenly ans violently and there is nothing in the ffb sound whatever that tells me when im close to the edge

Oh, ok. I haven't tried that in nKPro as I'm usually driving pretty nicely without a lot of sliding around.

dont take me too literal on what ive described though i have exagerated a bit but the way it happens gives you the feeling i tried to convey
and it happens to me while racing one moment i have the driving on rails feel next second i find myself very sideways wondering what the hell happened

[silent_wind]

hey wait a min , what's that RC thing you're talkin about ? is it a sim ?? if yes , how come i've never heard about it ? is it somethin like LFS ? and most importantly , is it realistic ? anyone's tried it here ?

[tristancliffe]

You mean Todds RC sim?

[Shotglass]

is he trying to be ironic or is he really just uninformed ?

[colcob]

hey wait a min , what's that RC thing you're talkin about ? is it a sim ?? if yes , how come i've never heard about it ? is it somethin like LFS ? and most importantly , is it realistic ? anyone's tried it here ?

http://www.virtualrc.com/

Like it says in the man's sig.

It is very realistic apparently, although I admit when I tried it, i couldnt tell whether it was running at ten times speed, or the cars are just insanely fast. Probably the latter, but its extremely hard to keep the cars on track as you need reactions like a ninja.

[Shotglass]

It is very realistic apparently, although I admit when I tried it, i couldnt tell whether it was running at ten times speed, or the cars are just insanely fast. Probably the latter, but its extremely hard to keep the cars on track as you need reactions like a ninja.

well just assume those tracks are also to scale (and they more or less are)
so you have a 1:8 car on a 1:8 track going at about 140kmh down the straights

there was (maybe still is) some weird butg though that somtimes makes my car actually go at many times its normal speed and warp too for a while until all return back to normal (looks like im watching myself lag)

but either way rc is short for radio controlled so its not a sim its real cars scaled down

[Tweaker]

but either way rc is short for radio controlled so its not a sim its real cars scaled down Real cars scaled down? :really:

[NotAnIllusion]

Lol those buggers are hard to control with the keyboard. Digital input doesn't seem to suit this one but it's kinda fun in the end..

[Shotglass]

Real cars scaled down? :really:

tyres behave similar ... suspensions are mostly double wishbone ones and the dampers also work the same as in a car (only one way adjustable though)
technically they are very similar to real cars and therefore behave similar (you could say better than real cars as their grip level and cog and so on i vastly better than in real cars)

[jtw62074]

On VRC, indeed it's a real challenge with the keyboard and most people are really put off by it immediately without a proper controller. You couldn't run the real cars with a keyboard either, it'd be just as hard as in the game really.

On the real RC engineering level things are actually quite high tech. VRC was done in colllaboration with Serpent, one of the manufacturers (Pieter Bervoets, the founder of Serpent, is the owner of VRC), so I spent a lot of time talking with the engineers, Michael Salven and Rene Cornella (I stayed at Rene's place for about 6 weeks once). When Michael was designing their F-1 car (RC version of course), he had his CAD file open when I walked in to his office one day. I thought it was a real F-1 car on screen there. Nope, he had modelled the RC version after a real one and they were working on the prototype right then. Was very cool to see :D

Anyway, the vehicle dynamics of RC and big cars are the same really. It's just the numbers you plug into the model for weights and so forth that are different for the most part. The drivetrains are different of course though and there are some slight design differences, but all in all it's the same thing as a big car. Tires are similar in that force is a function of slip angle/ratio/load/etc. (just like any deformable body rolling on a hard surface), so again, you can use the same model there, but with different inputs.

Either way, I'm enjoying NkPro, and am also really looking forward to seeing the new tire improvements Scawen has come up with for LFS soon! These are sharp guys here on this LFS project and I'm enjoying watching them continue to improve this. Things can only get better and better, so let's just keep on supporting them. :) I think with all the time I've spent on LFS it's probably cost me only a few pennies per hour of entertainment. Well worth it! :D

[Vain]

@jtw62074:
Is that a VRC review or did you really want to say anything specific about nkPro?

Vain

[jtw62074]

I actually did post some stuff about NKPro, but changed my mind and deleted it. I'll move along now :)

[GP4Flo]

Who cares? Reading something from a VRC developer is more interesting then the usual nkPro vs LFS talk.

[Shotglass]

serpent sells f1s these days ?!? cant find any info on them on their hp

[jtw62074]

They're not ready to sell the F1 cars yet. No idea when they will do that as they're still doing prototypes and testing them. These are running grooved, "real" rubber (not foams) that look like real F1 tires. Unfortunately that means they don't have nearly as much grip as the normal 1/8 scale tires do, so the first prototype they ran with standard rear wheel only brakes was apparantly not too well behaved when you wanted to slow down and turn. Those wings don't make nearly as much downforce as the standard Lola diffuser type bodies do, which just compounds the problem. A couple months ago on a visit to the office they had one with four wheel brakes added. That one ran three disc brakes as the rears are done on the layshaft so only need one disc there.

It's a RWD car with pushrod suspension just like the real F1 cars use along with a rear diff. Very trick setup with a long, narrow chassis and all that. A bit longer than the regular 1/8 scale cars, but more narrow of course. They were running a .12 engine in it that was more than enough power for those hard rubber tires. I haven't seen them actually run either car though unfortunately since I was stuck working on VRC in their office when they ran the first prototype for the first time. :p

[Shotglass]

It's a RWD car with pushrod suspension just like the real F1 cars use along with a rear diff.

sounds like theyre just trying to find a way to sell the old veteq suspensions :p

[jtw62074]

I thought of that too lol No, these are a totally new design :p

[Shotglass]

hmmm this is becoming a serious thread hijack

anyway you seem to be involved deeply into the rc scene so you might be able to tell me what happened to electric 1:10 f1 cars, pro10 and 1:10 buggies ... all those series seem to be rather dead these days

[jtw62074]

No idea, sorry :)