My or redline xrg car foult [Archive]

Tukko

22nd July 2009, 12:12

The XRG is quicker on the straights than the XFG plus it weighs more so it takes longer to stop. Add in the fact that patrese was in the middle of the track (therefore less than optimal entry to corner requiring a slower entry) and his braking point was OK. I don't think you (Ring) took the above into account so I would say it was your fault.

What he said ^^

Well imo that was just a racing accident, those things happens :shrug: You probably got banned because of that? Well I wouldnt worry too much about that cause 90% of LFS players are banned from Redline servers anyway :D Just move on and find another server.

DoC_uk

22nd July 2009, 12:17

What he said ^^

Well imo that was just a racing accident, those things happens :shrug: You probably got banned because of that? Well I wouldnt worry too much about that cause 90% of LFS players are banned from Redline servers anyway :D Just move on and find another server.

Nope he didnt get banned for it , you get the prize for dragging up old news again :really:

If you have anything to say ..make it factual rather that using phrases like "probably got banned" and plucking random percentages out of the air .

Otherwise your input aint required . You have a nice day now

Ring

22nd July 2009, 12:19

no im not banned,the problem is the rules:NO BLOCK NO CRASH
incident with redline member he write this rules
for me its block

DoC_uk

22nd July 2009, 12:28

no im not banned,the problem is the rules:NO BLOCK NO CRASH
incident with redline member he write this rules
for me its block

Listen bud ..read Amp88s reply , he knows what he is talking about ..

+ 2 others all saying the same this ..get over it and go race

Tukko

22nd July 2009, 12:30

Nope he didnt get banned for it , you get the prize for dragging up old news again :really:

If you have anything to say ..make it factual rather that using phrases like "probably got banned" and plucking random percentages out of the air .

Otherwise your input aint required . You have a nice day now

What's the prize then? You too, have a nice day :)

no im not banned,the problem is the rules:NO BLOCK NO CRASH
incident with redline member he write this rules
for me its block

Well there wasn't any blocking going on, he braked earlier cause he had to :shrug: You didnt see that coming and hit him, nothing really special there.

JustForFunRacing

22nd July 2009, 12:38

lol... that´s so funny!

Opening a thread for a normal race incident on a 5 laps race at a Demo server... omg... I would like to have your time!

In this time you could have driven 3 other races...:shrug:

But for you info: In my point of vie I would say it was your fault...

BTW.: I am not banned at any Redline Sever... And probably never will be...

BangDX

22nd July 2009, 13:12

I think REDLINE is guilty because he not sees his mirrors, and go in RINGs race line. RING has no where to go ... because it will block the other car behind him

SparkyDave

22nd July 2009, 13:19

Racing incident, Ring could have braked slightly earlyer and softer because of the traffic around , and Patrise could have stayed more to the right as he also knew 2 cars were to his left.

Ring was the driver that impacted into patrise (from behind) so if blame is needed then it goes his way.

The better driver was the black XFG of Rising who braked early enough to just drive by the 2 cars collecting each other :)

SD.

@Tukko, I'm pretty sure I am banned from redline (by choice from forum, as Ive never even raced there :D)

STF

22nd July 2009, 13:23

Watching the replay closely, Rising(black XFG) started braking earlier, clearing extra room for you.
Patrese(redline XRG) dude, was watching left every few seconds, maybe he saw that extra room and figured you`ll take it.

Also, you started braking almost half a second later(360ms to be exact) after Patrese.
You didn`t modify your braking point, considering you were almost in the middle of the track; in fact, the lap before that, you started braking almost 2 car lenghts earlier. But that was with no pressure upon you.

IMO it`s a racing incident. Half your fault, half his. Could have been avoided if you were a little aware of your surroundings, anticipating, and more relaxed; or if he would`ve hold his line and start braking earlier, resulting in a slower speed and surely being overtaken on the way to the next corner.

markorester

22nd July 2009, 13:40

look at the replay carefully. The black XRG (redline member) doesn't see Ring on his mirrors, and turn left , but Ring was there and..
So i think it;s patrese fault

th84

22nd July 2009, 15:56

I would go ahead and ban tukko just for the hell of it!

Im behind ya redline!

For what its worth, I didnt bother watching the replay.

XCNuse

22nd July 2009, 16:04

yes never ever ..ever brake when infront of another car !!

thats a huge nono in racing !
Why not?
It's a legitimate strategy that's been used forever.

Besides, remember in LFS you have lag, you have to anticipate when someone is going to brake, by the time you see their taillights, they've already been on the brakes for nearly half a second, and that.. makes a huge difference.

However, after watching the replay, it is Patrese's fault, he got on brakes early and cut in, he is responsible for not paying attention to his surroundings, he got on brakes and turned to outside at same time, no one would've seen that coming (least I wouldn't...) if you're going to go 3 wide in a turn, keep your line no matter where the cars are, don't try and get in front of them and then cause a crash.

I give the blame on Patrese, but that could be anyone's mistake, but you should know you give the right to the people in front of you, that was a late time to try and pass and survive, he wouldn't have made that turn if he tried.

By the way, I love the rewind feature of replays now, that's totally nifty!!!!

And after putting a line down and testing his position and brake point, it would have been impossible for him to make that move, he braked way to late, he could've kept his car on the track, but he would've lost the two positions he tried to gain, so.. I still give most blame to him.

Accident.. but it is still partially of his fault.
(anyone will try and brake late and think they can pass someone and keep going fast enough around the bend.. but that never happens.)

webdigga

22nd July 2009, 16:08

Why not?
It's a legitimate strategy that's been used forever.

Besides, remember in LFS you have lag, you have to anticipate when someone is going to brake, by the time you see their taillights, they've already been on the brakes for nearly half a second, and that.. makes a huge difference.

I think he was being sarcastic :scratchch

XCNuse

22nd July 2009, 16:18

oh.. right

didn't see it that way lol good point :dunce:

patrese

22nd July 2009, 16:41

I wasn't going to reply to this nonsense but Xnurse's comment about braking too late got my goat up.
I braked at 110m, plenty early to make the turn.
When did you last race the XRG ?
Besides, the simple fact i got hit from behind clears the matter and no need to further analize.
Xnurse, congratulations, you qualify as a marshall for F1, you will fit well in.:thumb:

XCNuse

22nd July 2009, 16:44

110 is not enough time to make the turn when you're on the wrong side of the track, you would have to cut over to the left like you were trying to do to make that turn, which would've extended your braking period.

I've been racing the XRG all morning by the way, but that's besides the point.

Reason you got hit from behind is because you slowed down and cut in on someone, that is both of your faults, but because you made an unpredictable move of cutting and braking simultaneously, the blame has to go on you, it's not proper to brake and cut someone like that before a turn, short braking is fine.. but cutting.. not okay.

I'm not saying you're a bad driver, you were looking over and you did have space, you had lots of space, but where you went wrong is you braked and then got over to left side, rather than the reverse order which could've saved you.

edit- Okay I just tested it again, if you were to do that turn like you were about to, it would've put you on outside of the turn and down in the 50mph or less range.
If you don't believe me I will make a replay to show you what would've happened to you.

Like I said, I'm not putting a blame on you or anything, I'm just saying.. that from that position that you were in, the take over would not have worked. It just so happens that was you.. but now you're getting fed up and think I'm hating on you, when I'm not, nor am I anyone else, I'm just stating what was happening.

Shadowww

22nd July 2009, 17:01

Xnursewhat

DoC_uk

22nd July 2009, 17:03

what

well done that 1 more for yer pointless post count ... :thumb:

patrese

22nd July 2009, 17:10

XCNuse (must make sure the name is right)
unbelievable, i cut in on someone?
i was ahead, so i can take the racing line.
if this was on the way to work, on a normal road, then yes, you would have a point.
XRG0:30.470 1:08.520 1:36.070 WR-diff +0:03.270 (http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=7&w=1)69 laps0.94% fuel20 Jul 2009, 20:13
thats the fasted you managed?
how dare you comment on my braking point!
i'm not saying im a expert on this combo, but you really aren't qualified to comment.
the reason i argue with you is that i dont think you know what you are talking about but being a moderator will give people the idea that your view carries weight.

G!NhO

22nd July 2009, 17:13

Xnurse

Xnuse i would ban him. :D

fujiwara

22nd July 2009, 17:26

having seeing i have to say patrese's fault ..sorry, but Ring was already there, didn't move his line and got hitted.

halo

22nd July 2009, 17:34

@Ring; Its looks hard to decide but I think your fault is little more than XRG driver. You have clear left, and same goes for XRG; he had almost clear left (you had no overlap), than at the braking zone he brakes little early than you as all XRG's do normally, you should known that & should have been prepared for that also.
I said hard to decide because the moment & position of the XRG when just starting brake (nose pointed left-according to the track longitudinal axis) is not what ppl generally do. This point is debatable but still since you hit the XRG, I can say that its mainly your fault because its braking zone.

And for the ppl who thinks its "big no no" to braking front of someone, you need to reconsider and think about the yellow flags, some abnormal conditions, IRL, etc. And its normal for ppl having different braking distances, so, be prepared for early braking at braking zones.

IMO, best thing is don't wait for the front car's stop lights, brake just little earlier and adjust the brake pressure by keeping the safe distance.

XCNuse

22nd July 2009, 17:39

@halo, the reason I didn't give fault to Ring is because he was going in a straight line, they were 3 deep in a line going into a turn. Even though he had space for less than a split second, you never try and take that space unless you want to get hit (like what happened)

Yes all were in brake point, but you brake together, you don't brake while turning to the outside of a turn just to make the turn better.. you were 3 wide going into the turn, you should consider that until you're out of the turn, not try and change it .. before the turn.

Better safe than sorry .. that's always the case.

halo

22nd July 2009, 18:00

@XCNuse, as I said, its hard to judge.
When I took the crash both sides point of view, I think I probably brake earlier than Ring does and look for another opportunity to pass XRG if I am faster & more consistent than him. A little early braking could save this crash.

For XRG's point of view; I would keep my car straight as possible (not to try gain extra space by moving far left) and try to take the turn as perfect as possible with this narrow entry.

Two POV together I concluded as I said above post, but its race, its happening most of time, they can say "race accident" "sorry" - "sorry" both sides and move on. Both Patrese and Ring are good drivers I believe, I dont think that they made this kind of mistakes so often. I count adrenalin, stress, environmental factors etc.
I also think that this example is good to show that sometimes things are not black & white (well most of the time) :)

Shadowww

22nd July 2009, 18:05

well done that 1 more for yer pointless post count ... :thumb:Thanks, I really appreciate your nice words :thumb:

XCNuse

22nd July 2009, 18:05

Oh no no I completely agree, accidents happen and that's what this is, I'm just saying, to keep stuff like this from happening (which I'm sure everyone does lol) all you have to do is know how to hold your line in a turn when people are near, even if they aren't necessarily right next to you.

All just a learning process..

danthebangerboy

22nd July 2009, 18:21

IMO, the XRG braked for the corner, which he has every right to, and was in front at the time, the XFG also braked, but did not do so in time, and hit the XRG which spun it and put them both in the gravel.

At the end of the day the XRG was in front and taking note of his position on the track, should have been expected to brake when he did by other cars, plus if you crash into another car then surely the person who did the hit is at fault.

As others have said, a racing incident, but avoidable nonetheless.

Ring

22nd July 2009, 18:23

see the development of accident XFG black car ahead of me but I respect him and do not come into line because I know what will happen, and leave a place redline XRG see that we are both left and enter into my line like I am there and not impact came back but when hanging side and stops at the same time in my line

and sorry my english is very bad

halo

22nd July 2009, 18:33

Exactly XCNuse, I agree thats the safest way to do to avoid contacts & being cursed by LFS's famous damage dynamics.

Racing with tight margins is maybe good for IRL competitions but in LFS we are racing like we had some major disabilities (you can count lags, viewing differences, controller difficulties/limitations etc).

danthebangerboy

22nd July 2009, 18:34

He didn't come into your line at all, he overtook you, and was in front. :shrug:

XCNuse

22nd July 2009, 18:36

Exactly CXNuse, I agree thats the safest way to do to avoid contacts & being cursed by LFS's famous damage dynamics.

Racing with tight margins is maybe good for IRL competitions but in LFS we are racing like we had some major disabilities (you can count lags, viewing differences, controller difficulties/limitations etc).
Yea, that's why I almost always back off first because I'm not as crazy as the next person may be lol, I always brake early if anyone knows me, like I said, better safe than sorry!

I would much rather be pulling half second slower lap times than ruin an entire race!

@dan, he BARELY overtook them, top down he was like 3" at best bumper to bumper, that is hardly an overtake, especially if you're on the inside of a turn and braking late for an XRG.

If you are going to over take you have to follow through, just because you're ahead doesn't mean you have complete control. And yes, he totally went into his line, he cut both of the GTis off, you sure you're watching the right lap lol? It isn't until like 3/4ths the way through

patrese

22nd July 2009, 18:43

I would much rather be pulling half second slower lap times than ruin an entire race!

3 sec in your case, yet you still seem to think you can comment on braking points.

Ring

22nd July 2009, 18:43

I have much experience with this car more than 30,000 laps my settings also allow you to stop a lot later just did not expect that an experienced driver as patrese will move left after we have seen that there two cars

XCNuse

22nd July 2009, 18:45

3 sec in your case, yet you still seem to think you can comment on braking points.
Yes but everyone will back me up on the fact that those brake points you're referring to are STRAIGHT LINE brake points.. that makes a HUGE difference.
A 5 degree change in direction.. twice.. will lengthen your braking distance far more than you think.

STF

22nd July 2009, 19:02

Xnuse i would[..]

Fail!:razz:

Patrese... no offence but get off your high horse. Being able to hotlap does not equal race-craft or sportmanship.
Not saying you don`t possess those, i don`t know you to make such statements, but everyone has eyes to see, even if they`re not qualified to even look at you:p.
From what i can see you are a good driver, but you were partly at fault. Superhumans make mistakes too you know. :p
About line, what line to take? You were in the braking zone. He was braking late, you must`ve heard his engine rev. You`re not alone on track.
In these situations you don`t jump in front of your opponent. Even slightly. You thought he had room to move, he was afraid to move left, not wanting to hit Rising, thinking there is no room, things happen quickly at speed.
It`s easy to watch the replay at 0.125x and see what should`ve been done, but when you play it realtime..
If you were at 150m mark.. :scratchch
In a perfect scenario you would have kept your inside line, he would have braked earlier, and try to pass you inside as you would exit slower/go wide.. but it`s never perfect.

Racing incident:). Case closed. The winner: Rising, who had some hindsight.
I really can`t put the blame on anyone of you. No reason to have an awkward situation, at most it is a lesson to learn.
You both could`ve had a great time if you didn`t crash. Something worthy for a "good pass" message :D. Now you`ll have something funny to remember, and maybe respect eachother more. I imagine you smiling ":-)" to eachother when you meet on a server saying "look at the shitstorm we created on the forum" :tilt:.

:D Something funny happened tonight, seeing your usename, i remembered this.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIhGJyLR6TI

zeugnimod

22nd July 2009, 19:09

I would go ahead and ban tukko just for the hell of it!

Im behind ya redline!

For what its worth, I didnt bother watching the replay.

+1 :nod:

danthebangerboy

22nd July 2009, 19:29

you sure you're watching the right lap lol?

Shhh! :hide:

G!NhO

22nd July 2009, 19:31

Fail!:razz:

Oh damn.

XCNuse

22nd July 2009, 19:34

Shhh! :hide:
haha, it's okay it took me like 5 minutes until I figured out what was going on lol I thought they were talking about T1 and 2 the whole time haha! :tilt:

patrese

22nd July 2009, 20:01

Patrese... no offence but get off your high horse.
I'm not the one who was complaining about the incident and I haven't bothered to respond untill a person with a influental position passed judgment on a event that he clearly isn't qualified to pass judgement on.
If you care to look at the replay again, you will find i looked left twice, the second time knowing it was clear for me to go back on the racing line.
I had FULLY (1/2m) overtaken by that time and therefore had every right to be where i was.
And yes, i still would have made it round the corner unlike XCNuse who may have got his brakes set differently or whatever.
I don't even care if i was right or wrong, but what does bother me are backseat drivers who think they know better but haven't produced
any evidence of that.
I mean, would you listen to someones advice about where or where not to brake who is nearly 3 seconds slower than you?
Writing this sitting on a Shetland pony

XCNuse

22nd July 2009, 20:27

We aren't bashing you man! We are simply saying due to the positions of all the cars, you should have kept your line no matter how far ahead you are, if you pass.. you keep your line, you don't cut them off ASAP. That's just how it is.

What does that have anything to do with me? And why would you bash me saying that I'm 3 seconds slower than you are when you don't even know if I am or not, even if I am why would that make a single difference.. on any account?!

danthebangerboy

22nd July 2009, 20:50

Slightly OT, but how can we tell that you looked left, i believe you when you say you did, but i just don't see the drivers heads turn, not just this replay, i mean in any replay, including one i made myself where i deliberately looked around constantly for the whole race, yet my drivers head never moved when i watched the replay back again. :shrug:

Plus don't bash moderators, its a bad thing to do y0 :razz:

patrese

22nd July 2009, 20:56

It makes a difference because you think you know where to brake when you don't.
Simple.
I also don't know what you are talking about "direction change".
I'm beginning to think you are watching the wrong lap.
Just look at the bloody steering wheel and tell me about "direction change".
If you are talkings about the tiny steering input to the left to get a better angle (after i cleared Ring) and call that direction change, then we live on a different planet.
I see the lovely American flag next to your name, but something makes me think you are Bulgarian.:scratchch

patrese

22nd July 2009, 21:00

Slightly OT, but how can we tell that you looked left, i believe you when you say you did, but i just don't see the drivers heads turn, not just this replay, i mean in any replay, including one i made myself where i deliberately looked around constantly for the whole race, yet my drivers head never moved when i watched the replay back again. :shrug:

I can. Have you tried chase view though rear window?:scratchch

XCNuse

22nd July 2009, 21:05

Okay Patrese you can listen to me now..

Not that this has anything to do with the thread, but
I just did 11 HLVC compatible laps and uploaded it to LFSW, my PB now in XRGT at BL1GP Sunny is .. and I can't upload hotlaps with test patch 15
Old Laptime: 1:36.07
New Laptime: 1:34.610
Patrese Lap: 1:33.65

Now.. no longer do you have to listen to someone who is "3" seconds slower.. especially for someone that everyone here knows isn't a RWD type person.

HLVC Meaning the lap is 100% clean, no interference, no drafting, no nothing.

Next time I wouldn't be so quick to judge someone like that, it could come and bite you in the rear end one day!

(replay & RAF uploaded incase you don't believe me...)
PR done on final lap 11 (only intended to do 10 but.. I figured why not)

But really I think it's just your attitude towards me, when .. I am American, I live in Georgia.. always have my entire life.
And yes, steering input = directional change no matter who you are.

On topic however, my brake points were still before 110m to get the turn in right. Also I was braking in a straight line, not turning.

JasonJ

22nd July 2009, 21:17

My wheel is in pieces while I re-build my cockpit so I have the time to have a look at this.

I looked at the incident and initially thought, wow that was a pretty bold and a little offensive overtaking move. I don't race that way, oh well, must be why I come last a lot. :D

So then I watched the rest of the race.

Far from me being expert, but it seems to me that on several occasions Ring takes the inside slower line at entry and other drivers must surrender and give him extra room, adjusting their speed and line to allow him through, yet when the same situation is given to him he will not yeild.

1:15
1:42
3:47

Can't have cake and eat it to. :tilt:
Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, etc etc

patrese

22nd July 2009, 21:22

right ok, well done.
now you should know 110m is enough.
sorry to have offended you.
over and out.

XCNuse

22nd July 2009, 21:28

Far from me being expert, but it seems to me that on several occasions Ring takes the inside slower line at entry and other drivers must surrender and give him extra room, adjusting their speed and line to allow him through, yet when the same situation is given to him he will not yeild.

1:15
1:42
3:47

Can't have cake and eat it to. :tilt:
Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, etc etc
lol nice ending.

I mean yea some people are agressive drivers but you just have to adjust to them, if they cut you off in a turn or whatever etc. etc. chances are they will do it again so you just have to learn what they do and then make a move yourself, that's just what racing is.

LogansRum

22nd July 2009, 23:28

wow - I can't believe this is getting so much attention. I had to watch the replay again a few times just to see if its as contentious as it sounds.

For me it's still very clear.

Point 1) Patrese is clearly ahead and doesn't make a sudden move to the left - he is very slightly angled left. You can indeed see from chase view that he looks left to make sure he is passed the car before very slightly moving over.... and by moving over i mean a couple of degrees - certainly not changing lane or anything.

Point 2) Rising (the 3rd place car) is over a full length of a car further away from the corner when he starts braking - he did exactly he right thing - he's 3rd in the queue and brakes early to take account of that... Ring does not - but as has suggested earlier is the more agressive (and paid the price here).

Point 3) Ring has a full half car gap to his left to move over even if he didnt want to pull infront of rising he could still have moved over... though at that point he has more than enough room to completely move over to the left in front of rising and I'm confident Rising would have braked plenty early enough. Part of the problem is that on NO occasion does Ring actually look left or right himself so he has no idea of his position or the position of the cars around him.

Point 4) Sorry XCNuse but I just have to disagree with a couple of your points. I'm not trying to be argumentative but you say that the cars are 3 abreast going into the corner when they arent. Pat is completely in front, followed by ring, followed by Rising. As Pat is completely in front he is 100% entitled to move to the outside of the turn on the exit... in normal racing the cars behind can then try to come back at him on the inside because of his slightly slower speed pulling out of the corner... but not only was he entitled to pull to the right of the track on the exit, that is exactly what he should do. I understand what you mean if 3 cars are going round the turn side by side then yes you need to stay on the very inside, on the same line you were on - but these 3 cars were not side by side.
Also where you say 'And yes, he totally went into his line, he cut both of the GTis off' - well that just isnt true at all. Patrese was angled over so slightly that Ring didnt actually hit the back of his car he glanced the very back of the left wing tapping the edge of the bumper - so to say he cut both GTs off is out an out wrong. Sorry if I missunderstood what you were saying there though. When a car is 100% passed you, you should expect him to move over to the racing line and brake early to take acount of that.

There's more but i've bored myself now and bored you, so i'll stop.

Good debate though :)

XCNuse

22nd July 2009, 23:41

I watched again, and he starts to head to the left at 150m to go and you can still see Rising when looking to the left.

Like I said, even if you are in front, you just passed.. you don't cut people off immediately when you are barely ahead be .1 of a second.. you either wait the turn, or keep going. I don't know about you, but honestly everything I've ever come across is that you don't pass and cut them off unless you're trying to wreck you and everyone else.

If you really want to keep going..

attached image is where the brake lights become visible. That is not half a car length by any standards..

Now as for blaming it on ring.. you can't, he kept his line like he was supposed to, he didn't get into the line Rising had possession of, if anything Ring did everything he could to be right, cutting in front of him while braking is not a standard.

Just because you're in front doesn't give you all the rights.

Rising may have been behind, but Ring gave him the room as you can see they both move together fluidly while patrese is doing his own thing going left right left right, and finally brakes, and cuts in.

As fast as that happened, Ring didn't have time to check to see if Rising was still right next to him or not (all this happened in like 3 seconds at worst), so.. because he doesn't know if Rising is there or not, he kept his line, while patrese moved in, like I said it doesn't matter if you're first or last, you still take care of your own car, not cut people off and shove them around "just because you're ahead"

Heck when I'm racing if I see someone flying towards me to fast in a turn I get off the brake and get out of the way before he takes all of us out of the race!

(image compressed like mad for faster uploading)

XCNuse

22nd July 2009, 23:58

Just watched it a few more times.. and here's an update

Ring never checked to see Rising was completely gone from his left side.. so he did was he was supposed to do and kept his line (incase they decided to play chicken with braking and see who was better)

Patrese was ALL the way on the right side at 200 meters, by 150 meters he was closing in, and begin his acceleration towads the left hand side of the track (..look at the input of his wheel), then at ~110 meters he braked, and his car was still accelerating towards the left hand side of the track (I say accelerating because of his momentum is keeping him that direction, at that time his wheel is heading straight)

Now.. I don't know about you, but whenever I drive my car, in LFS or not, I have to see the ENTIRE car from my center mirror, not until then do I change lanes. When Patrese is making his move, you can't even see a front wheel yet, all you see is halfway down the three quarter front panel and the left side... that is hardly an overtake when you're just ahead and going to fast into a turn, or as Patrese says ..just fine.. but for being on the wrong side of the track to make that brake and turn nicely.. it was about 20meters to late.

JustForFunRacing

23rd July 2009, 04:21

I still can´t believe that such a damn race incident is taking such a attention... :shrug:

But what I can say that I raced both Ring and Patrese several times and always saw Patrese as a very fast but very fair driver that of course defends his position, but always leaves enough room for other drivers around.

Well Ring.. Indeed he is very fast too, but sometimes I have the opinion his thinks the track and every turn is only made for him. He often gives no room and starts yelling if others do the same:scratchch

Just being fast does not mean that everyone has to let you pass if I am right!

And to be honest... With the XFG my brake point is at about 80 meters... So why shouldn´t a faster brake at 110 meters? XFG driver with such an experiance like Ring should know that the XRG is faster at the straight bus has to brake earlier instead...

So why didn´t he brake earlier too to avoid this crash?? :really:

XCNuse

23rd July 2009, 04:53

Because Patrese's car was less than half a meter away when he floored the brakes, which equates to.. if you really want to do the math.. for Ring's brain to compute this, and apply the brakes himself, it would take him at best 1/4th a second, within that quarter of a second, he is traveling 115mph, which means that in that quarter of a second, he will travel 42 feet within that quarter second of him applying the brakes.

Now.. due to the difference in lag time, Patrese has already been on the brakes for a quarter second or so, so now.. Ring is half a second behind in braking, due to lag and difference in times, this is just not possible.. in LFS, and everyone should know this, lag delay, and human perception delay.. fact is, if you pass someone and put on the brakes.. dont FLOOR the brakes.. warn them by lightly putting on brakes to show your lights, then you can put the pedal down because they'll already be slowing down for you.

Flooring the brakes and turning in to someone who 'thinks' they have no room.. isn't the right thing to do, as displayed right here.

He didn't brake earlier.. because he had NO TIME. Patrese floored the brakes and gave absolutely no warning to anyone that he was going to floor the brakes and cruise over to the left side.

(those times etc. are only estimates, really it took about 1 second for everything to happen)

patrese

23rd July 2009, 07:33

JustForFunRacing earns himself VID(very important driver) status at Redline.:thumb:

Shadowww

23rd July 2009, 07:49

JustForFunRacing earns himself VID(very important driver) status at Redline.:thumb:So does every Redline Racing asslicker?

patrese

23rd July 2009, 08:01

Yes !

-NightFly-

23rd July 2009, 08:32

JustForFunRacing earns himself VID(very important driver) status at Redline.:thumb:
i believe thats called a buying people off :smileypul

DoC_uk

23rd July 2009, 09:03

i believe thats called a buying people off :smileypul

I believe thats called taking it all to seriously :shrug:

LogansRum

23rd July 2009, 10:32

Because Patrese's car was less than half a meter away when he floored the brakes

This is where you are getting it all wrong, you can't just look at the split second instance that pat touched his brakes, you have to look up at what leads up to it. Ring had well over a second when he could see Patreses car moving over from the right - any other good driver would have edged to the left by just a few degrees, in to part of the absolutely massive gap on the left... and as you can see in the picture - it requires very little change in direction from Ring - but he just drove with blinkers on and assumed people would keep out his way.. so there is far more time to react than the 1/4s you suggest.

You also suggest that Ring did the right thing because he didn’t look left and right? So if you don't look left and right to see the positions of cars around you then you can do what you want? Come on! That's one of the worst examples of bad driving, not looking around you to see where cars are. In a tight situation like that you certainly should be aware of what’s going on around you - not living in your own little world and expecting everyone around you to just keep out the way.

Oh and I don't know either of these drivers or drive on redline... I have nothing against either of them and just basing my view on the replay alone...

That's it for me - As this is nothing more than a racing incident and going to go round in circles it's used up enough time. Was a good discussion though, marred only by waste of space stirrers like Shadow who have nothing worth while to contribute.

Tukko

23rd July 2009, 11:14

I would go ahead and ban tukko just for the hell of it!

Im behind ya redline!

For what its worth, I didnt bother watching the replay.

you mf asslicker! :D same goes to zeug aswell! I love you guys :lovies3d:

91mason91

23rd July 2009, 11:20

So does every Redline Racing asslicker?

amazing how iv been around LFS longer than you yet you have 3x more posts than me and ofcourse, none of them helpful and probably not on topic like this one.

Anyway watched the replay and i would say it was 50/50
The XRG is going faster than the XFG and weighs more and thats why he braked earlier thn the XFG.

Shadowww

23rd July 2009, 11:22

amazing how iv been around LFS longer than you yet you have 3x more posts than me and ofcourse, none of them helpful and probably not on topic like this one.Amazing how people rate count of posts in same way as length and usefulness of penises.

XCNuse

23rd July 2009, 11:42

Either way I still blame Patrese, if he kept his line, he wouldn't have hit Ring, end of story, there is no getting past that one, Ring kept his line, Patrese closed in on him and clipped his rear end on Ring period end of story... that's what happened.. you can't tell me it didnt, because Patrese is moving left, you can clearly see that in both of your images, while Ring is going straight down the track.

By the way, watch it real time and see if you could react that fast, even if you could.. he is still less than half a meter away

If Patrese says his brakes are awesome and he can stop fast, what if Ring's were not? If by some miracle they braked at the same time but Ring's brakes were as forceful as Patrese says his are.. the same incident would have happened no matter how you try and defend it, because Ring is going down the track straight, and Patrese clipped his rear quarter panel on Ring's nose.

HVS5b

23rd July 2009, 11:45

Okay Patrese you can listen to me now..
snip....

:thumb:

pmsl

XCNuse

23rd July 2009, 12:10

:thumb:

pmsl
..only way to get through to him I figured at the time :D

Luke.S

23rd July 2009, 12:32

what

tbh you are pathetic. I have been here since 2007 and my post count is less than 3000 then you call me a spammer.

JasonJ

23rd July 2009, 12:36

IDK man, I thought it was one of Shadowww's best posts.
i lol'ed

patrese

23rd July 2009, 13:14

.... if he kept his line, he wouldn't have hit Ring, end of story, there is no getting past that one, Ring kept his line, Patrese closed in on him and clipped his rear end on Ring period end of story... that's what happened...

Anyone who lives in a reality like him wont get through to me.

SparkyDave

23rd July 2009, 13:32

Can a driver not take whatever line he chooses after he has overtaken someone? all drivers in this incident knew the brake point was looming, lots of people swerve infront after a pass then hit the anchors for the next turn, its maybe not polite, or a little agressive, but if your infront you have the right to any line you want, its the responsibility of the following driver to not rear end someone regardless of if he's just been overtaken, or if he's applying pressure to lineup or make a pass.

It is possible to be steering whilst braking, assuming you have analog brake pedal, I regularly drive off the track to avoid contact because I've pushed too hard and decided to put my car on the outside side by side in the brake zone, yes a silly thing to do :) If a driver sees that and allows room thats very considerate of them, if they allow me room at the exit aswell thats even nicer, but not expected in a competitive race situation.

After all is said and done, things happen in a split second, and unless drivers are constantly aware of where surrounding cars are, and thinking ahead about where they might be in the next second, racing incidents like this one will keep happening every day, and thats before you take lagg into account :)

SD.

@ Shadow: people dont just rate by your postcount the also read the constant drivel within most of them :J

XCNuse

23rd July 2009, 13:33

Can a driver not take whatever line he chooses after he has overtaken someone?
Would you if it means putting yourself and others in danger.. ?

SparkyDave

23rd July 2009, 13:41

Personally I wouldn't no :)
saying that Patrese gave no warning before braking, sounds strange to me because everyone knows theres a corner coming up, 150Mtrs sign goes whoosing past above everyone should have expected everyone else to brake.

SD.

XCNuse

23rd July 2009, 13:50

See lol that's why I'm putting blame on him for endangering others like that.. just saying

I mean if you want to get real, everyone was playing chicken on that turn by not braking though, if I was in that position I would've been on the brakes earlier than them, there is no way anyone would survive going 3 wide in that turn

Framaris

23rd July 2009, 14:51

I am not a big poster here, but this got my attention because I know Ring (good guy!) and was curious what he had to say….
Sadly I can’t see the point behind such a topic, since he wasn’t banned and we are talking about a 5 laps race where an “accident” has happened like 1000’s every days…
It is starting to look like the F1, soon we’ll need a tribunal to judge those incidents….lol

I was a real life racer which doesn’t makes me qualified and to be honest I am curious about what do you think qualifies some of you to be judge on this one? (taking online stats in to considerations)
Gentlemen’s rule says that when someone pass you on the inside ¾ of a car, you back of to eventually get him back on the inside of apex (hoping he would get a bit too deep on braking)… in 5 laps sprint races I think it is the only rule that makes sense since crashing or an error lives you no chances to get back, Ring and Pat are both good racers (raced many times with them) and when 2 good racers fights there is always a chance for an accident, which here could have been avoided from both sides… of course I am not a specialist in those matter but that’s the only conclusion I can make here. No big lesson to be learned..

So I don’t understand what you want to achieve here, especially after 3 pages ...
If you want to learn about racing this is not the best example to chose from….

Emotions is the enemy here!!

XCNuse

23rd July 2009, 14:57

fujiwara

23rd July 2009, 15:01

Can a driver not take whatever line he chooses after he has overtaken someone?

Of course a driver can, but the point here was the lack of common sense, and this situations happen in real life streets too.
Just because patrese had 1inch full car ahead doesn't mean he can swerve the car in front of someone and brake immediatly...he had the inside, he was ahead, could easy stayed on his line and forcing Ring to stay on the outside all the time, instead he choose the "non common sense" aproach.
Ring was also ahead of Rising, yet he decided to give him space.

patrese

23rd July 2009, 15:20

XCNuse, this is getting ridiculous now. You are talking like a Smart car driving, Evian drinking lawyer about a road traffic incident on a busy street in real life.
We are talking about a simple virtual racing incident that happens when people fight for position.
I have raced Ring a few times before and i knew he is a quality racer
who races hard and i think tries to be as fair as you or me.
I am not by nature a aggressive racer and always try to give plenty room
and the first to say sorry if i made a mistake.
However, there are times when i believe its OK to race hard or a little more aggressive: when i find my opponents to be so, or when i think we can both handle the race craft required to avoid accidents and have alot of fun.
In this case i believed it was a bit of both but maybe i was wrong.

But then you come along, all knowing, in a respectable position, about to get the chalk out to mark positions on the track, tape measure, camera and notebook and turn it into a potentially fatal real life road accident investigation and ready for a big American style lawsuit.
Just let it be.
The guy is always welcome to race on our servers and I'm always happy to race him in future. Next time i see him online, will say sorry for my bold move to him and he might even say sorry to me about clipping me (but he doesn't have to) and we'll all be happy bunnies i hope.

Framaris

23rd July 2009, 15:22

It's just here to show you who's fault it is in any case of whoever it is

Yes stuff like this happens all the time, that is why there are threads like this to get down to the nitty gritty of what went wrong to prevent it from happening next time!

It is a noble cause then, if you sincerely believe that topics like this prevent such accidents from happening, I may have another 500 replays to suggest then lol.:D
But I can agree with you that a mature conversation on those incidents could make sense if well managed…

patrese

23rd July 2009, 15:30

It's just here to show you who's fault it is in any case of whoever it is

Yes stuff like this happens all the time, that is why there are threads like this to get down to the nitty gritty of what went wrong to prevent it from happening next time!

These things will always happen in racing and a discussion and replay of it will never prevent it. Its part of racing.
It may however clear the rules of racing a little and as Fram says could be a good thing if well managed.
The best way to deal with it is to be civil with each other and not to go running to third patries for judgment and support.
Deal with it there and then, make up, and have another race with a calmer head. SORTED :thumb:

Glenn67

23rd July 2009, 15:44

I agree with Framaris's take and now as I am just about to make post patrese. Race incident in my book both patrese and Ring could have done abit more to avoid incident but in heat of battle errors are made were all human :)

I believe patrese was aware that Ring would be aggressive under brakes and therefore was making a defensive move to make his pass stick. In my eyes patrese's only error was that he braked hard straight away and perhaps should have come on the brakes slightly more gentley at that point to allow more time for Ring to brake. Ring on the other hand could have braked slightly earlier than normal knowing that the xrg brakes earlier than the xfg, but he was probably thinking he still could challenge on the outside planning a switchback to go up the inside at the exit of the corner :scratchch either way just too good drivers pushing hard and this time not pulling it off, race incident.

XCNuse

24th July 2009, 01:09

It is a noble cause then, if you sincerely believe that topics like this prevent such accidents from happening, I may have another 500 replays to suggest then lol.:D
Well.. you can always try right :nod:

Met Patrese online about 3 hours ago, was very friendly, we got talking for about 2 or 3 minutes, it was at the LR Racing server.

Anyways, the race restarted and we were off (i believe patrese was a spectator at the time). T1 and the straight was a clean good start for a good race. We got down to the turn at the end of the long straightaway, looked around....

and thought...

Oh the irony...

I was in the EXACT same spot as Ring was, someone else was in a similar spot to where Rising was, and there was an XRG similar to where Patrese was.

I figured I wasn't going to let this happen, so I slowly put on the brakes around 150 meters to show everyone behind to slow down, then got on my brakes for real around 120 meters.

The XRG got halfway in my line about a half car length ahead of me, and my front end was about halfway down the side of the XFG on my left, but he was pulling ahead as I was already braking.

I figured hah! Solution.. problem solved.

Then the inevitable happened, someone rear ended me.. distinctly hard for entering that turn, and then.. instead of just myself and one XRG going into the sand, I landed up taking out the other XFG, the XRG, and myself.

There is only so much you can do I suppose! :thumbsup:

@patrese, I never was attempting to insult you, but use you as a learning tool for future drivers so they know what to expect at times like this. If that was me in the XRG instead of you I would've been saying just about the same thing, so no offense to you.

patrese

24th July 2009, 07:16

Hehe, its all good. We are cool.:smileypul
Wanted to join the race but then a guest turned up. Grrr

patrese

28th July 2009, 16:34

Here is new one.
Now i must stress i would never post a replay regarding a matter like this here but i will make a exception this time for obvious reasons.
If it wasn't clear enough the first time, this replay (lap 10)
should clear things up.
Funny how he never posted this one and still no sorry or admission of fault.
It seems they might have different rules of racing in Bulgaria but since we are not there he will have to adapt his style to conform with us I'm afraid.

SparkyDave

28th July 2009, 17:13

Yes that last one is 100% ring at fault :)
I dont know why he was so shocked lol

SD.

DoC_uk

28th July 2009, 18:12

Its the "thanks" afterwards that really gets up my nose

webdigga

28th July 2009, 20:31

Its the "thanks" afterwards that really gets up my nose

Yeah, that would get on my nerves as well. Cleary Ring at fault here.

Ring

29th July 2009, 11:01

DoC_uk

29th July 2009, 11:16

YES MY FOULT
JUST I USE WRONG BUTTON ''F4'' Thanks
''F5'' is Sorry
my mistake what the problem?
im not BOT make mistakes sometimes
BUT I THINK ALL REDLINES VS ME
its racing team or BigBrother show?
watch my every step on the magnifying glass

and Patrese intervene to stop my country!!!
if you have a racist bias better tell me straight

Easy tiger , lets be honest now you cant come here complaining about someones driving and then moan and whine when the same people come here to complain about yours . The point is you drive with an arrogance that winds people up on the server again and again , you think every corner is yours regardless of circumstances .

Pats not racisit i think his point was that in your original post the only 3 people that said "yes definatly pats fault" came from your contry ..thats not racism .. its just pointing out facts.

Think you need to chill out , that goes for your driving style also ! Its no good being quick on an empty track if you lack the craft to take it to a full race :thumb:

Ring

29th July 2009, 11:40

DoC_uk

29th July 2009, 11:48

Easy champ,
Even a week ago i asked if i welcome in your server,
response is completely clear you could tell me more then
not let me sneak a permanent.
Do not worry no longer visit the server you
thus able to win any contest.

Good luck :thumb:

Have no idea what all that means , not your fault as English is not your 1st language .I think from the jist that you no long wish to use our server to race on , thats fine . I will point out that you are not at this time banned , but will further point out that is continue your driving style elsewhere i'm pretty sure you will be met with the same response .

You have a nice day

LogansRum

29th July 2009, 14:21

There have been many other people on here that have disagreed with your point of view Ring, not just redline people! Besides - even if you did press the wrong button, which I doubt, you could have pressed the right one after it.

If you're going to moan on here about other peoples driving then dont be suprised if your own faults are exposed.

cobra193

2nd August 2009, 01:42

I'm not the one who was complaining about the incident and I haven't bothered to respond untill a person with a influental position passed judgment on a event that he clearly isn't qualified to pass judgement on.
If you care to look at the replay again, you will find i looked left twice, the second time knowing it was clear for me to go back on the racing line.
I had FULLY (1/2m) overtaken by that time and therefore had every right to be where i was.
And yes, i still would have made it round the corner unlike XCNuse who may have got his brakes set differently or whatever.
I don't even care if i was right or wrong, but what does bother me are backseat drivers who think they know better but haven't produced
any evidence of that.
I mean, would you listen to someones advice about where or where not to brake who is nearly 3 seconds slower than you?
Writing this sitting on a Shetland pony

It's pretty clearly patrese's fault.. I'm, not sure what some of you are looking at, but if you use the overhead view it's clear as day. I think this is where a lot of arguments come from in LFS is that people have a different definition of who has 'right of way' etc.. I can say that you can't cut in front of someone WHILE you begin to brake.. That's just stupid.