No Auto-Clutch Allowed [Archive]

morpha

13th July 2009, 01:52

When that no chase or other view thing came in via insimThere is a server-side option called force cockpit view, which also disables the racing line. If you're on the track in a car, you're forced to use cockpit view, the client won't allow you to change view. No InSim, actual LFS.

Even to this day I don't use in car view just because all I have is a laptop, albeit a 17" laptop but it is still way to small, if I'm going to ever be stuck in that in car view I must have a 24" screen with a graphics card that can handle it with ease.So you're a casual gamer, some people are not. Some people take LFS and other sims serious enough to spend a lot of money on their equipment, on wheels, racing frames, shifters and pedals, motion simulators even. Those people are dedicated to sim-racing and expect the same dedication from everyone they race.

Forcing a clutch is serious the worst idea ever.In my opinion, adding auto-clutch was the worst idea ever.

If you are going to force clutch then you're going to have to force H Gate shifter too then right?For manual cars, absolutely!

I mean for real, if you ever turned that option on you'd get like 5 people racing when you'd be running normally with over 30 just because that many people don't have an extra clutch pedal.Well let's hope they go buy the necessary equipment then. There are only two valid reasons for a serious sim racer not to own a clutch pedal. A physical disability or driving vehicles with semi- or automatic transmission exclusively (with the exception amp88 named).

But putting a system like that limiting the general public? Terrible terrible idea.It's an option for server owners, the general public can keep cruising or do whatever they do. Racers meanwhile can race fair and square under similar "cockpit conditions".

Hmmmm, so just because my clutch pedal needed a pot job, I had to sit out of a race?

Yes it does, you'd be out of a real race too with a broken car :smileypul
€: Well no, in this situation I'd say a button clutch would be fine, just not auto-clutch.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 02:32

If you say adding auto clutch was a bad idea you haven't been here long enough.. back just before I was here there was no clutch period!
Also.. force cockpit view was insim in the beginning..

It hasn't been until recently that getting a wheel with a clutch pedal already is standard, it's still actually pretty rare.

As for by H gate shifters, yes I know not all cars use them, I was making a reference to the cars that do have them, that you'd be required to use one of those too... which, when I got mine, cost as much as my Momo racing wheel...

Plus, I've still got the number one rule of LFS.. keep it system wide.. LFS is best at one thing, allowing people of all ages etc. enjoy the physics of driving a car no matter how rich or poor you are, this is probably the biggest thing, and you can't say anything about this just because LFS has always been based on this.. keep people that have 10 year old computers still able to play LFS.

Sure you can say well go out and buy a clutch pedal.. but.. what if someone's computer is so old it doesn't even have USB? Think about that?
Or.. how about money issues?
My Momo racing wheel was $100 when I got it, and still pretty much stands there at $90, My Logitech Formula GP wheel was my first wheel I got as a gift, it cost $45 when it was bought, I now use it as .. well nothing currently, but it was for my clutch. My ACT Labs H shifter was another $90 for me to buy

that is $235..

It costs that much to get a G25, but did I get a G25? No. Clutch pedals in my day were.. you make one work, not buy one. I could've spent another $100 for the ACT Labs pedal set, but I didn't have that kind of money.

So are you telling me you would rather force people to not be able to buy any food for two weeks just so they can have a race online after work? That's wrong.

The rate you guys are trying to defend this idea, it's like the FIA, you're ruining the entire purpose of .. everything.
Restrictions like this is what is ruining motorsports, game or not.

If you want to have a race that's 100% fair, then make sure everyone you're racing against has a clutch, don't cut those from the line just because they can't afford it, that is wrong on so many personal levels it's emberassing.

amp88

13th July 2009, 02:35

It's a proposed server side option. If people don't want to drive there they don't have to. Saying server owners shouldn't have more control over who drives on their server is a bit silly, is it not?

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 02:50

amp88

13th July 2009, 02:56

Having an option there is a toy, it's something to play with, like I was saying early on, when that force cockpit view went fullscale, there wasn't a single server I got on that would allow me to use my normal view so I stopped playing because it was miserable, and then when I did find a server.. no one was playing.

That is what I am getting at.

Yes, and what I'm saying is that those people have obviously chosen to race there so they accept the forced cockpit view (and possibly think it's a good idea). If you've just gone out and bought a shiny new wheel with a clutch pedal and an h gate shifter, it's pretty reasonable to want to race against people who are using the clutch and shifter too. If you have some people using the clutch and shifter and some people using auto clutch and sequential shift the people using clutch and shifter are at an automatic disadvantage. Being able to level out the playing field (by forcing everyone to use manual clutch and possibly manual transmission) is a reasonable idea.

You seem to be against the forced cockpit view because you don't use it. You're saying "I don't want things added to LFS that I'm not going to use". I think that's a more embarassing standpoint to take, personally.

logitekg25

13th July 2009, 03:01

cant we all just get along! it is an improvement thread, so instead of argueing, think up a way TOGETHER to make this idea work! maybe a limit on the number of servers that can be open at one time with this option, if the limit is met, you are told to go to another server. that would work in my thoughts.

amp88

13th July 2009, 03:08

maybe a limit on the number of servers that can be open at one time with this option, if the limit is met, you are told to go to another server. that would work in my thoughts.

There are a few reasons this isn't a good idea (excluding the matter of keeping track of the number of servers who have this enabled in real time). You're saying to server owners "We've created this new idea, but only x of you can run it at the same time". Why would you even do that? How would you deal with people who 'hog' the feature (keep it enabled on 20 empty servers they spawn?)?

morpha

13th July 2009, 03:09

Thanks amp88 for understanding and explaining the point of this :thumb:

(...) just because they can't afford it, that is wrong on so many personal levels it's emberassing.So you're seriously saying there are people who can afford a computer, a LFS license and an internet connection, who'd have to do without food for 2 weeks to be able to afford a G25 which amounts to about 10 full price DVDs or 54 packs of cigarettes? I'd say that's embarrassing. Mind you, "cannot afford it" is a very different thing from "do not really want to waste my money on a wheel", that seems to be the real meaning of "can't afford it" in most cases.

cant we all just get along! it is an improvement thread, so instead of argueing, think up a way TOGETHER to make this idea work! maybe a limit on the number of servers that can be open at one time with this option, if the limit is met, you are told to go to another server. that would work in my thoughts.

We are getting along fine, we're having a topical argument.
Mind elaborating what the point of a global limit would be?

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 03:10

I'm not the only one, I'm defending everyone that doesn't use the cockpit view 24/7 because some of us don't have the graphical power to want to deal with cockpits seeing it kills FPS by almost 25%.

As for costing money.. no I'm not kidding, do you really want to start a thread to see how many people can afford $200+ worth of equipment? Because I'm telling you a vast majority can't.. and another percentage can.. but would prefer not to spend that much money.

Do you realize what anyone can do with $200?

As for being unfair.. I fail to see how this is legit in so many places, there are so many leagues.. for example the biggest, SCCA, not all cars have H gate shifters.. some have padels, do you see the guys having to do the real shifting complain? Maybe.. but do they care? Not really, no. Why? Because it costs a lot to have padel shifters in a car, not to mention it's heavy.

So.. instead of forcing something.. why not limit the other?
Like.. I dunno, a 50kilo weight penalty or so?

amp88

13th July 2009, 03:12

I'm not the only one, I'm defending everyone that doesn't use the cockpit view 24/7 because some of us don't have the graphical power to want to deal with cockpits seeing it kills FPS by almost 25%.

As for being unfair.. I fail to see how this is legit in so many places, there are so many leagues.. for example the biggest, SCCA, not all cars have H gate shifters.. some have padels, do you see the guys having to do the real shifting complain? Maybe.. but do they care? Not really, no. Why? Because it costs a lot to have padel shifters in a car, not to mention it's heavy.

So.. instead of forcing something.. why not limit the other?
Like.. I dunno, a 50kilo weight penalty or so?

You are not forcing them, you're giving the server owners the option to force them. It's a massive distinction.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 03:13

Yes, until that option is abused just like the force cockpit view was and no one can play LFS unless they have a clutch pedal until that 'fad' goes away after half a year.

logitekg25

13th July 2009, 03:15

Thanks amp88 for understanding and explaining the point of this :thumb:

So you're seriously saying there are people who can afford a computer, a LFS license and an internet connection, who'd have to do without food for 2 weeks to be able to afford a G25 which amounts to about 10 full price DVDs or 54 packs of cigarettes? I'd say that's embarrassing. Mind you, "cannot afford it" is a very different thing from "do not really want to waste my money on a wheel", that seems to be the real meaning of "can't afford it" in most cases.

We are getting along fine, we're having a topical argument.
Mind elaborating what the point of a global limit would be?

idk what servers are actually like (never raced online or even been online with lfs :( ) so im just imagining, but maybe there is another option (bear with me lol) that asks if its private, and then have a list of drivers allowed, and they will get an invite or something asking if they want to join, and if on the servers screen there is a search servers thing, and you type the name of the hidden server, a request will be sent to the administrator of the server...if that makes sense, i am using my imagination for this.

amp88

13th July 2009, 03:15

Yes, until that option is abused just like the force cockpit view was and no one can play LFS unless they have a clutch pedal until that 'fad' goes away after half a year.

So letting people decide how they want to race is a bad idea? If people don't like it they'll choose a server without it.

idk what servers are actually like (never raced online or even been online with lfs :( ) so im just imagining, but maybe there is another option (bear with me lol) that asks if its private, and then have a list of drivers allowed, and they will get an invite or something asking if they want to join, and if on the servers screen there is a search servers thing, and you type the name of the hidden server, a request will be sent to the administrator of the server...if that makes sense, i am using my imagination for this.

Private, password protected servers can be created easily. You can even switch from a public server (anyone can join) to a private server (only admins or people with the correct password can join) when it's running.

logitekg25

13th July 2009, 03:19

So letting people decide how they want to race is a bad idea? If people don't like it they'll choose a server without it.
HE IS SAYING THERE WILL BE NO SERVERS LIKE THAT BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL ABUSE THAT OPTION.

Private, password protected servers can be created easily. You can even switch from a public server (anyone can join) to a private server (only admins or people with the correct password can join) when it's running.

no idea what you are talking about, because havent seen it. *begins to wonder why he puts up with that*

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 03:21

That isn't deciding, that is forcing something on them that they may not necesarily want.

Sure you could choose a server that doesn't have it turned on.. but do we even have that option for force cockpit?
No!

That's why I was so mad about forced cockpit just because every server I went to I didn't have a choice, it was deal with bad FPS, or get booted to spectator, that's what annoyed me is I wasn't even using chase cam intentionally, I was going through the views and I got specced.. without even knowing I would be if I hadn't of done that.

My limit idea is where this thread should head, forcing something on the gamers is a poor decision in the end.

I mean if you want to take it to extremes to see how this really sounds, that's like starting a US server and saying only US people can race it.. well.. what if there are no other servers running the F1 on KY Long, and you want to play but you're in Canada.. No.. you can't.. you're not in the US so go find somewhere else to play.

amp88

13th July 2009, 03:24

That isn't deciding, that is forcing something on them that they may not necesarily want.

Sure you could choose a server that doesn't have it turned on.. but do we even have that option for force cockpit?
No!

edit: Just realised you were talking about it from the user's point of view rather than server admin. AFAIK there is no way to directly filter the host display by FCV yes/no, but you can tell which have it on by looking at the host flags (in the Info column from within LFS server list).

I mean if you want to take it to extremes to see how this really sounds, that's like starting a US server and saying only US people can race it.. well.. what if there are no other servers running the F1 on KY Long, and you want to play but you're in Canada.. No.. you can't.. you're not in the US so go find somewhere else to play.

Seems like a pretty reasonable idea, IMHO. Australian people usually have very high ping to European servers, so if the server owner wanted to keep out Australians he should be able to. A lot of other multiplayer games have autokick features for high ping. The point I'm trying to make (and you seem to be failing to take on board) is that it's all about choice. A server owner should be able to do whatever they want with their server so long as it's not illegal and doesn't break the license agreement. If that means keeping people who use keyboard or mouse or are from Australia then fair enough.

morpha

13th July 2009, 03:24

Do you realize what anyone can do with $200?

Educate me, I have no idea what 200 USD are actually worth in the US. Judging from what you say, it must be more than I thought. At current exchange rates, 200$ are about 140€, which is not a lot of money, enough for a month of food supplies for the average family perhaps, cheap food though.

kingcars

13th July 2009, 03:30

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 03:39

Doesn't really matter to me, honestly. I've had me G25 for well over a month now and if anything, there's an extra satisfaction when you're leading the field using heel/toe technique and the h shifter.
I agree with you %100, I love using my full setup with my H gate etc. It is tons of fun, but not letting people racing because they don't have a clutch .. isn't cool.

What can I do with $200.. hm lets see, well I could last on Ramen noodles for over a year, I could buy a cold air intake for my car, on the subject of my car I could take a trip from my home in Georgia to San Francisco CA, and then to Vegas.. wow thats a lot of driving! That's over 2,100 miles (over 3,400km)
I could buy another netbook...
I could buy Windows 7 :p lol
I could buy 2 Blu Ray players
I could buy an Xbox360
I could buy an entire 5.1 Surround sound system
I could buy 5 demo racers an S2 license.. or spend that money and get me 4 or 5 brand new games for the Xbox I could've had
I could buy the monitor so I could play with forced cockpits and not complain
Want me to keep going?

I could get a multitude of lenses for my camera
I could get a camera just like mine (D40)
I could buy a big flash like I already have
I could buy a sub & box for my car

Instead.. I am saving my $200 and will [hopefully] spend it on a new ipod touch this year .. if and only if it is what I want.. seeing somehow.. someone.. threw my first gen ipod touch away (dont ask..)

$200 is a lot of money to just throw away when you're a college student from my point of view
Besides my 55-200 VR, SB600 and my Dell Mini 9, I hadn't spent more than $200 at a time for anything in my life.

One person can last $200 on money for food.. No not a family, but this is LFS, how many people here are having to support a family?
How many kids here are even old enough to have a job to MAKE $200?

scania

13th July 2009, 03:51

It is a bad news for mouse\keybroad driver.....
I spend all my money to buy S2.......

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 03:57

It is a bad news for mouse\keybroad driver.....
I spend all my money to buy S2.......
Thank you.. proof from just one person.
How many people online have you seen that still use keyboard to drive?

I usually see a good 5 people playing with keyboard out of 30 people or so.
And that's a pretty good ratio considering those are racing servers that keep track of your every move.. isn't it?

That's 5 less people.. those 5 people using keyboard could be the people racing right next to you, meaning if you forced clutch, you would be all alone and wouldn't that be a boring race?

amp88

13th July 2009, 04:04

You just don't understand, do you? It's all about choice. If you can't understand that point there's no reason for trying to say what I've said before over and over again. Allow it as an option, let server admins and the public decide if it's a good idea or not.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 04:11

No I understand what you're saying and I will say it again, the system will be abused during a break in period and will ruin the integrity of LFS.

It would be just another option to keep others from racing, that is all it would be doing.

Just as everyone realized with the force cockpit, the only good thing about it was the ping times because there were a lot less people on the server than there would be, making the races that less enjoyable.
Then someone had the bright idea saying hey.. why not give everyone a chance, and everyone wins.

Plus.. do you honestly think that auto clutch is much slower than using a real clutch in LFS?
I can tell you right now the differences are so little, the only reason why someone with a real clutch would be slower, would be if they had an H gate, and they missed it, and even then.. it's so little time difference it wouldn't change your laptime but by maybe a whole .1 seconds.

ADOLF1612

13th July 2009, 04:13

Well in This point I Support XCNuse, ´cause what he says is true, in my example, i got a Momo racing wheel, and I dont got any money for buy a clutch, with a lot of effort i got my way to get a ps2 over a year ago and i´ve only got like 5 games for it cuz the lack of money, my pc isn´t that new, only 512Mb RAM, 128VRAM, and a dual core 2.8, i run LFS quite a lot and i really like it as it is.

It´s deffinitively a really Bad Idea, ´cause I Know that I´m not the only one in this situation, a lot of people here ( the vast majority) doesn´t got a G25, an ACT Labs set or something with 3 pedals, and what about the case of the people that lives in a country where ACT labs or other PC/Simracing equipment Sellers cant export their products in? so that means that anybody in that country can play Lfs Anymore??, Why I Say this? Because this is a Mostly european community Sim, and the economy in Europe isn´t that bad, btw there´s people from other parts of the world that´s going on this too; ´Cause european economy isn´t that bad, in some time a lot of people will get a G25/A-like setup and bassicly because the introduction of this feature, the admins of most Servers will turn it on, and What About the other people without a set like that??? yes they could join annother server without it enabled, btw they will have to race alone because all the rest of the people is on those european servers with that thing On, because they think it´s more fair racing like that, and then the other people leave the game, and Lfs turns in an European hipocresy Sim, and nobody likes that...

So, taking Less words, If the depelovers Make that an Option in the Control Menu, it´s there for a reason, for that people that likes to:
Play the sim, maybe not much to afford a G25/A-like Set, but that plays the Sim;

For the people that plays it sometimes,

For the people that plays it with mouse (aka Begginers/People with a really bad economic situation),

For the people with Discapacities,

and I could still Going and Going, Btw Like I said before, Auto-Clutch is there for a Reason, And Would be a really bad Idea Blocking it, even if only 1 Server will run it, it´s Just Annother way of Racism, a Thing that We Have to Avoid, End of Disscusion, ITS A BAD IDEA.

PD: You dont have to get the best equipment to be very dedicated in something... it´s How Much You Like to do That Thing, Thats Dedication, not needing the Best equipment for it, btw doing the best you can with what you got, and without ANY Restricctions form Anybody else.

Adolfo Herrera.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 04:14

Now.. why do I say it would make that little time difference?

With autoclutch right now you still have to let off the gas, in the same time you let off that gas, you could be shifting with a clutch and a gate shifter, but instead.. you're just letting off the gas.. meaning the only thing changed between two people, is one person has the fun of managing a clutch pedal and a gate shifter, while the other person doesn't get to have as much fun.

There IS no difference in autoclutch vs real clutch except the motions. That is it.
That hasn't always been the case, but it has been the case since this year.

morpha

13th July 2009, 04:14

I spend all my money to buy S2.......

How much per month for your internet connection and the electric bill?

Mr. Nuse, here in Austria:
200$ would buy you 137 litres of diesel at best, diesel being the cheapest fuel currently available. That's no more than 1800km realistically.
You couldn't buy a netbook for 145€, at least I do not know of such a cheap one.
You could buy Win7 Home Premium, probably Professional, but certainly not Ultimate.
You could buy a good bluray drive for you computer, or two cheap ones.
You couldn't even buy an XBOX360 Arcade.
The D40 is 420$ (299€) here including the 18-55 kit lens.

Perhaps you can understand now why I think the G25 is cheap, it's because it is. Here at least.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 04:21

Excuse me I was wrong, the G25 in the US from logitech.com costs $300, not $200
that is WAY more than I would ever spend on something for a computer, I won't even spend that much on a new graphics card for my laptop no matter how much I want it.

You can buy a laptop for that price.
I spent $169 on my Dell Mini 9

That's strange.. Logitech.com for Britain, it costs $450 USD (279 GBP) for a G25

The G25 by no means is cheap.
I have yet to spend $300 at one time for anything in my life.

morpha

13th July 2009, 04:23

For the people that plays it sometimesCasual gamers, who are unlikely to be competetive in a race of dedicated sim racers anyway.

For the people that plays it with mouse (aka Begginers/People with a really bad economic situation),You'll be a beginner again once you get the wheel, it'll be completely different. As for the bad economic situation, again: internet but no way to save a bit on a wheel?

For the people with DiscapacitiesIf you read back, I added an exception for disabled people.

and I could still Going and Going, Btw Like I said before, Auto-Clutch is there for a Reason, And Would be a really bad Idea Blocking it, even if only 1 Server will run it, it´s Just Annother way of Racism, a Thing that We Have to Avoid, End of Disscusion, ITS A BAD IDEA.
It's discrimination, but certainly not a racial issue. Discrimination is not always a bad thing, we don't have to avoid it. Keeping casual gamers out of a serious racing environment is like keeping sex offenders away from kids. Quite exaggerated analogy I know, but it's 6:23 am and I'm still up and couldn't think of anything else, I'm not saying casual gamers are sex offenders or sim racers are kids, hope you get my point :razz:

That's strange.. Logitech.com for Britain, it costs $450 USD (279 GBP) for a G25.It's 187€ where I bought mine, I paid 220€ back then.

I have yet to spend $300 at one time for anything in my life.
That's very hard to believe, very very hard...

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 04:27

Well I'm telling you I haven't.

I personally.. that's why I said I haven't.

My father has.. but I have not spent that much money before in my life.

lol go to sleep already :razz:

amp88

13th July 2009, 04:31

No I understand what you're saying and I will say it again, the system will be abused during a break in period and will ruin the integrity of LFS.

How will "the integrity" of LFS be ruined? The introduction of a server side option that means anyone who races on that server must use a more authentic controller configuration? I really don't understand how that could ruin what the devs are trying to achieve with LFS because it would be increasing realism.

Just as everyone realized with the force cockpit, the only good thing about it was the ping times because there were a lot less people on the server than there would be, making the races that less enjoyable.

I don't remember there being a big drop off of people around the time the FCV option was introduced.

Then someone had the bright idea saying hey.. why not give everyone a chance, and everyone wins.

Couldn't the masses of people who apparently didn't want to drive with FCV go and race on their own servers? That way you have 2 distinct groups of people each of whom is happier than if you force 2 groups who have different ideas and desires together. If, tomorrow, you introduced a system where you could force only wheel users on your server there would be 2 camps: those who had wheels and those who didn't. In each of those groups there would be people who thought the option was a good idea. The people who thought the option was a bad idea would still race against each other on unrestricted servers. The people who had wheels and thought it was a good idea would race against each other on limited servers. The people who didn't have wheels and thought it was a good idea would race with the people who didn't think it was a good idea until they could afford a wheel. In this situation people would be happier. I have had a few times where I've been racing against someone using keys online and they've been warping so badly (a combination of a bit of lag and the key's digital input) that they've been taking up literally half the track and been impossible to pass. I would be happier if I didn't have to race against that sort of person (a keyboard user), unless I chose to.

Plus.. do you honestly think that auto clutch is much slower than using a real clutch in LFS?
I can tell you right now the differences are so little, the only reason why someone with a real clutch would be slower, would be if they had an H gate, and they missed it, and even then.. it's so little time difference it wouldn't change your laptime but by maybe a whole .1 seconds.

Using a manual clutch and h shifter is definitely slower than using auto clutch plus paddles/sequential shifter and it's more prone to mistakes. With manual clutch and shifter it's possible to miss gears (which definitely costs more than 0.1 secs...), to wrong slot (which either loses a lot of time or puts 12,000 rpm on your engine and you lose a lot of power (which costs you more than 0.1 secs per lap...). The process of gear changing will generally take longer (a good driver might be able to shift as quickly or slightly quicker with manual, but keeping it up over a reasonable race distance without making mistakes is doubtful). Also, the process of braking and synchronising downshifts (throttle blip/heel and toe) is more difficult because you're having to manage 3 pedals. The act of heel and toe will change the amount of brake pressure you're using which will lead to sub-optimal braking performance at best and locked/flatspotted/hotspotted tyres is more likely. What I mean by that is that when you're using auto clutch and sequential you can keep one foot on the brake and use the other to blip on the downshifts. This way you are more able to accurately modulate the brake pedal pressure to keep the tyres at the threshold braking.

If you don't realise manual clutch + gearbox is slower than auto clutch + sequential you're either delusional or you don't understand the situation.

ADOLF1612

13th July 2009, 04:33

Btw Morpha, What i Try to say is that bassicly it´s there for a reason, and i named, that.

As i See, you´re too Inside the Serious SimRacing, well they are talking about get it in any server, being public or not, public servers are there for the people that wants to get pickup racing, being competitive or not, it´s fun anyway, Btw how they would get fun out of it if they need to get that equipment just for pickup racing? to have fun with your friends...

Btw If that Feature could be enabled Only in Private servers (Serious races[leagues and the like] run their´s in private ones) then that wouldn´t be that Bad but as I said, Only in Private Servers (´cause the reasons above).

morpha

13th July 2009, 04:35

Come on, admins don't get their servers filled as it is, they wouldn't all turn on the option and run completely empty servers. :shrug:

Well I'm telling you I haven't.

Well you would have had to for your D40, but could have gotten 1.5 G25s for the same kind of money. Puts things into perspective, no? Who'd have thought it would be this different :shrug:
Out of curiousity, what's a US gallon (or whatever you measure it in at the pump) of diesel off the top of your head?

I'm .3 seconds slower on the drag strip than a team mate who's using the paddles, that's with the G25 shifter which has a short throw and very little resistance. The more realistic the setup, the more severe the disadvantage.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 04:45

our diesel right now is [edit.. usually is at least] more expensive then our gas since they have passed laws and it has to go through sulfur filters (that happened.. last year I think?)

In my area gas prices are dropping quite rapidly, they are down to $2.30 (87 octane) for a gallon of gas, and diesel is in the $2.40 range (actually doing really good, it's usually more expensive but right now it's looking pretty low) premium (93 octane) is about $2.55

As for my D40, father bought that, but I suppose you're right, it was bought at $360
But again I didn't spend it so.. spending that much money for me is.. gonna take a lot of pushing! I really want a G25 though especially now because I'm thinking I'm going to take my Momo down to school so I can play (wireless xbox360 controller wasn't much fun lol so I never really played)

At prime server hours I see a lot of servers get up there, and the more people in the server, the more likely people are to join in!
Why join in a server that's 5/30 when there's a similar server running 25/30? Which would you prefer to join lol?

@amp88 again.. forcing something that isn't real ISN'T INCREASING REALISM. Not every manual car in this world has a clutch. Sure maybe the cars in LFS aren't like today's cars, but that's not the point, because what about everyone running an Auto gearbox? Can they race too?

By the way, toe heel doesn't make you faster, and if you think it does then you must be delusional, because all you're doing is setting the car up for the gear to take out of a turn, when you could always brake.. clutch in, shift from 5th to 3rd, clutch out and be on your way.. or instead you can risk damaging your entire transmission in a real car by attempting something like that if you don't know how, or miss the turn, miss the apex.. there is plenty more to go wrong in a heel toe situation than there is when you shift at the apex like people did when my father raced.

amp88

13th July 2009, 05:00

@amp88 again.. forcing something that isn't real ISN'T INCREASING REALISM. Not every manual car in this world has a clutch. Sure maybe the cars in LFS aren't like today's cars, but that's not the point, because what about everyone running an Auto gearbox? Can they race too?

The road cars in LFS are generally accepted to be modelled (http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/FAQ#On_what_cars_are_the_LFS_cars_based) on <'90s European/Japanese cars. These would almost certainly be sold with manual transmissions with manual clutches. There are a handful of cars that have manual transmissions without a user-operated clutch (some old SAABs, some RUFs etc), but it's pretty safe to assume the road cars in LFS would be sold as manual cars with manual transmissions. It would therefore be more realistic to drive these cars with a manual clutch and h shifter. The only road car that you could realistically suggest would be sold with a sequential/paddle shift gearbox would be the FZ50 (based on a Porsche with the Tiptronic gearbox).

By the way, toe heel doesn't make you faster, and if you think it does then you must be delusional, because all you're doing is setting the car up for the gear to take out of a turn, when you could always brake.. clutch in, shift from 5th to 3rd, clutch out and be on your way.. or instead you can risk damaging your entire transmission in a real car by attempting something like that if you don't know how, or miss the turn, miss the apex.. there is plenty more to go wrong in a heel toe situation than there is when you shift at the apex like people did when my father raced.

Where did I say the act of using heel and toe made you faster? What I said was that it was easier to modulate the brake pressure when you only have to worry about 2 pedals. If your right foot is both applying force to the brake pedal and being rolled off to blip the throttle it's incredibly difficult (or impossible) to modulate the brake pedal as you would like, because you're having to move your foot to blip the throttle.

morpha

13th July 2009, 05:03

In my area gas prices are dropping quite rapidly, they are down to $2.30 (87 octane) for a gallon of gas, and diesel is in the $2.40 range (actually doing really good, it's usually more expensive but right now it's looking pretty low) premium (93 octane) is about $2.55So about 0.63$ per litre of diesel, which is about 0.45€ or 43% of our per litre price -.-

At prime server hours I see a lot of servers get up there, and the more people in the server, the more likely people are to join in!
Why join in a server that's 5/30 when there's a similar server running 25/30? Which would you prefer to join lol?
Well would depend on the combo and type of racing on the servers. I'd rather have a good duel than an unbalanced full grid though.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 05:08

and I am telling you that you don't have to toe heel, the only thing that helps at is engine braking which.. isn't helping anyone unless you're a pro at it.

Besides, in the cars we're talking about.. there is no purpose of heel and toe, the only time that would be necesary would be in the GTR cars (okay fine you got me.. the only car it would matter would be the FZR) but even then I have yet to upset the car that much when downshifting to much, and if you are, then learn how to use a clutch more properly.

Honestly, I can say the only person I know that is good at toe heel here is.. probably Tristan if he even does it (no offense to anyone else if you are good at it)
but when will you EVER have to toe heel.. in a non GTR car? Ever?

Why WOULD you toe heel in a non GTR car, it would freaking RUIN your transmission, or atleast cut its lifetime in half if you're trying to downshift fast from 6th to 3rd and going down each gear in between, unlike a normal person which would slow down.. hit the apex of the turn, shift into 3rd and go, and save the transmission that much pain.

So honestly, this whole toe heel arguement isn't going anywhere in this thread it's just a sub arguement that is entirely purpose and I have no idea why I'm continueing this sentence lol

@morpha, well.. you gotta take that chance, I've been to enough servers (back in the days when I really played you could only have 16 [or was it 15?] players on a track at one time) so even then it was hard to pick a fight because chances are people were either much faster than you.. or much slower so.. that is why this doesn't bother me because even if someone is having to do more work, or if I were to set up my H shifter and deal with that, no matter how unfair it could be, I would much rather have fun.. racing next to someone doing half the amount of work.. than otherwise really..
lol as for fuel prices.. yep that sounds about right haha! and ours is actually pretty expensive right now, hopefully it will drop down to 2$ flat when I leave for school.

Sometimes you know.. it isn't about how realistic it is.. it's about how much fun it can be.

If you want to get serious about being realistic, how many track days will you ever see two cars that are perfectly balanced?.. Rarely if ever, and that is what hurts about LFS is the limit of cars and modifications, the only things that seperate you from someone else is skill.. and suspension. That isn't much, in the real world.. you can't even compare, so if you want to go the realistic route.. you're going the wrong way because LFS is far from realistic.

amp88

13th July 2009, 05:29

and I am telling you that you don't have to toe heel, the only thing that helps at is engine braking which.. isn't helping anyone unless you're a pro at it.

How exactly does heel and toe increase engine braking?

Besides, in the cars we're talking about.. there is no purpose of heel and toe, the only time that would be necesary would be in the GTR cars (okay fine you got me.. the only car it would matter would be the FZR) but even then I have yet to upset the car that much when downshifting to much, and if you are, then learn how to use a clutch more properly.

Smoother downshifts -> smoother weight transition -> more predictable car. It can also help reduce wear on the gearbox and prolong longevity in longer races.

Honestly, I can say the only person I know that is good at toe heel here is.. probably Tristan if he even does it (no offense to anyone else if you are good at it)

The only person you know who is good at heel and toe is someone who you don't know if he uses heel and toe or not...OK, I see where your logic is there.

but when will you EVER have to toe heel.. in a non GTR car? Ever?

When I used to drive a car with a manual gearbox and manual clutch (Peugeot 406 1.9 turbo diesel) I would almost always heel and toe on downshifts. The simple reason for this was that it made the downchanges smoother because it helped to alleviate the massive engine braking in a diesel engined car.

Here's some guy driving a non-GTR car and he's heel and toe'ing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6mCgPajjn8). I think he used to be a professional racing driver or something.

Why WOULD you toe heel in a non GTR car, it would freaking RUIN your transmission, or atleast cut its lifetime in half if you're trying to downshift fast from 6th to 3rd and going down each gear in between,

You've lost me here. Heel and toe wrecks gearboxes if and only if you go through every gear on the way down the gearbox? Why do experienced racing drivers do it then? They like explaining to the team why there's half a gearbox stuck on the back straight and a trail of oil back to their garage? Really, I think you must have the wrong idea about what heel and toe is.

unlike a normal person which would slow down.. hit the apex of the turn, shift into 3rd and go, and save the transmission that much pain.

So you slow down for the corner, stay in the gear you were in before, turn into the corner, hit the apex THEN you downshift and accelerate away. I've been doing it wrong all these years. I thought you were supposed to be in the right gear for accelerating out of the turn BEFORE you turn in. That way you don't spend the first quarter second of the straight fishing about trying to get a gear.

So honestly, this whole toe heel arguement isn't going anywhere in this thread it's just a sub arguement that is entirely purpose and I have no idea why I'm continueing this sentence lol

If it serves to educate you and you don't need to go through this argument again with someone in the future it'll save them time and you embarrassment.

pik_d

13th July 2009, 05:35

It's discrimination, but certainly not a racial issue. Discrimination is not always a bad thing, we don't have to avoid it. Keeping casual gamers out of a serious racing environment is like keeping sex offenders away from kids. Quite exaggerated analogy I know, but it's 6:23 am and I'm still up and couldn't think of anything else, I'm not saying casual gamers are sex offenders or sim racers are kids, hope you get my point

I use an Xbox 360 gamepad to play LFS. A bit unconventional I know, but I've done over 55,000 miles / 88,500 kilometers. That's more than I've driven in real life in the 6 years I've had a drivers license. I've been in a few leagues and know a lot of people from different countries, backgrounds and of course teams, including my own. To call me (and others like me) "casual gamers" simply because I don't have a 3rd pedal (or even any pedals in my case) is elitism at its worst. A casual gamer wouldn't dedicate hours of practice and hundreds of laps for a single 45 minute race in a video game. A casual gamer wouldn't even dedicate the time to a league where their schedule is dictated by some guys across the ocean, months in advance.

Reading through this thread I almost want this option so I wont have the misfortune of racing against people who get upset over people having a different input method.

I could get a G25, sure, but I don't want to. I'm comfortable with how I race and I do well enough to be happy with it. I'm not the fastest, I probably routinely lose to people with G25s and DFPs (oh wait they're only casual gamers too, right?). amp88 brought up the potential of missed shifts and other disadvantages of a h-shifter + clutch. Auto-clutch users have some disatvantages of out own. If we spin and aren't quick enough to release the gas (or say... we think we can power out and keep the throttle down on purpose) we can toast our clutch which ever so helpfully engaged as we were spinning around.

Really the only place I can see where this is a good idea is for people who have G25s (or the homebuilt clutch setups mentioned) who want to drag race against "their own kind". I can understand being pissed at losing by .3 seconds every time because you have the technically better equipment where you have to do everything yourself. In actual race conditions I can't really see the point, there are disadvantages to both clutch and non-clutch setups as I pointed out.

amp88

13th July 2009, 05:40

In actual race conditions I can't really see the point, there are disadvantages to both clutch and non-clutch setups as I pointed out.

So for the auto clutch system you have to remember to lift off the throttle when you're spinning so you won't overheat the clutch? In the manual clutch system you have to remember to put the clutch in so you don't stall. Surely it's more difficult to recover from a spin if one of your feet is busy holding down the clutch so you don't need to restart the engine? I just don't see how remembering to lift off the throttle is remotely close to having to synchronise 2 feet on 3 pedals and the added difficulty of being able to miss shifts, wrong slot etc. It's also easier to overheat the clutch driving normally with a manual clutch and transmission compared to auto clutch because it's easy to mistime the release of the clutch when you're trying to battle not to lose time.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 05:44

Stall... how are you going to stall a car when it's moving unless you somehow manage to lock up anything and everything that is moving?

If you stall a manual car when shifting.. you will break anything worth money in that car.

Honestly if you have a clutch, learn to use it, otherwise don't worry about it that's what it comes down to, if you want to deal with a clutch, then you should know better to put it in if you start to spin out and come to a stop.

Thats just true for life, if you get a manual car.. you should know better, if you stall it when it comes to a stop, that is YOUR fault, not the cars.

Also by the way.. automatic cars don't have clutches in the transmissions, there is nothing to overheat.

morpha

13th July 2009, 05:47

If you're not using a wheel, you're not driving a (virtual) car. You're playing a game. We're probably close to driving cars with gamepad-like controls, but not quite there yet. When we do, I will consider "gamepadders" drivers, but only if the car you're driving in LFS has the same kind of controls. Until then, only a wheel-and-pedals-user (or the equivalent controls for disabled people) is a driver to me. No doubt you can operate a virtual car in LFS with a gamepad, it's just not what I consider driving, at least not in a simulation.

Really the only place I can see where this is a good idea is for people who have G25s (or the homebuilt clutch setups mentioned) who want to drag race against "their own kind". I can understand being pissed at losing by .3 seconds every time because you have the technically better equipment where you have to do everything yourself. In actual race conditions I can't really see the point, there are disadvantages to both clutch and non-clutch setups as I pointed out.

I'm not pissed at all, I don't even use it as an excuse, just pointed it out to make it clear that, in my experience, H-shifting is in fact slower than auto-clutch sequential shifting.

Also by the way.. automatic cars don't have clutches in the transmissions, there is nothing to overheat.

Very dangerous generalisation, there are many different implementations of automatic transmissions and I'm fairly certain every single one contains something that's prone to overheat under the right (or rather wrong) conditions. Can't really avoid it when transmitting torque, there'll always be friction.

amp88

13th July 2009, 05:54

Stall... how are you going to stall a car when it's moving unless you somehow manage to lock up anything and everything that is moving?

When you come to a stop in a car with a manual transmission and a manual clutch you either have to be in neutral or have the clutch in (or both) to stop it from stalling. When you're spinning you tend to stop before you rejoin the track (well, if you're going to check for traffic that is).

Honestly if you have a clutch, learn to use it, otherwise don't worry about it that's what it comes down to, if you want to deal with a clutch, then you should know better to put it in if you start to spin out and come to a stop.

Thats just true for life, if you get a manual car.. you should know better, if you stall it when it comes to a stop, that is YOUR fault, not the cars.

I do know how to drive a car with a manual transmission - I've driven a few and owned a couple over the years.

Also by the way.. automatic cars don't have clutches in the transmissions, there is nothing to overheat.

I've been careful to mention auto clutch rather than auto transmission. If you use the auto clutch on top of a sequential system in LFS then you're still driving a car with a transmission with a clutch underneath, it's just that LFS is operating the clutch for you.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 05:56

How exactly does heel and toe increase engine braking?
Well.. ever take a manual car and go down a hill and shift into lower gears? That's how, I don't need to explain.

Smoother downshifts -> smoother weight transition -> more predictable car. It can also help reduce wear on the gearbox and prolong longevity in longer races.
Again.. if you know how to use a clutch properly.. this is your duty, if you feel as though you need to heel toe (which you don't) then learn to shift smoothly. Heel and toe doesn't reduce wear and tear, shifting correctly does. Heel and toe is just an accessory to blipping to reduce wear and tear

The only person you know who is good at heel and toe is someone who you don't know if he uses heel and toe or not...OK, I see where your logic is there.
My logic is that I personally don't know anyone that is good at heel and toe, that is what I'm getting at.. if you say you can't do this or you can't do that because you're to busy heel and toeing.. that is YOUR fault, that means you AREN'T good at it, if you were, you wouldn't be complaining about having to do this or that.

When I used to drive a car with a manual gearbox and manual clutch (Peugeot 406 1.9 turbo diesel) I would almost always heel and toe on downshifts. The simple reason for this was that it made the downchanges smoother because it helped to alleviate the massive engine braking in a diesel engined car.
When..? I have yet to be in a situation that I have to drop down a gear except for going up a hill I drop from 5th to 4th but that doesn't involve braking.. when do you ever in any car have to brake and shift at the same time?

You've lost me here. Heel and toe wrecks gearboxes if and only if you go through every gear on the way down the gearbox? Why do experienced racing drivers do it then? They like explaining to the team why there's half a gearbox stuck on the back straight and a trail of oil back to their garage? Really, I think you must have the wrong idea about what heel and toe is. Like I said.. these guys know what they're doing, not to mention they are RACING transmissions, the normal H gate cars in LFS.. would not involve a racing transmission, chances are any idiot to try heel toe and screwed it up.. would probably be a $2,000 or more mistake

So you slow down for the corner, stay in the gear you were in before, turn into the corner, hit the apex THEN you downshift and accelerate away. I've been doing it wrong all these years. I thought you were supposed to be in the right gear for accelerating out of the turn BEFORE you turn in. That way you don't spend the first quarter second of the straight fishing about trying to get a gear. Yea.. if you're racing.. and have a transmission made for racing. By the way, the time you waste downshifting probably skidding the tires.. is much more time than it takes to downshift in between braking and throttle to shift gears... Unless you have one foot on brake and one on throttle so when you are at the apex your throttle is halfway in as you're letting brake off... otherwise it doesn't work that way.

pik_d

13th July 2009, 06:02

So for the auto clutch system you have to remember to lift off the throttle when you're spinning so you won't overheat the clutch? In the manual clutch system you have to remember to put the clutch in so you don't stall. Surely it's more difficult to recover from a spin if one of your feet is busy holding down the clutch so you don't need to restart the engine? I just don't see how remembering to lift off the throttle is remotely close to having to synchronise 2 feet on 3 pedals and the added difficulty of being able to miss shifts, wrong slot etc. It's also easier to overheat the clutch driving normally with a manual clutch and transmission compared to auto clutch because it's easy to mistime the release of the clutch when you're trying to battle not to lose time.
Oh please, controlling throttle, brakes and the clutch is second nature to anyone who drives a manual car (or has enough time in LFS doing the same). Don't try to tell me that you have to actually think "OK I'm spinning... I should push the clutch in! Left foot go down now!" I suppose that my argument works best for people who don't use their feet to control throttle.

Also when you spin you push the clutch in and release the throttle, right? The auto-clutch does what you do instinctively, but of its own accord. I might drop the clutch sooner coming out of the spin if I had a clutch pedal compared to how long it takes the auto-clutch to do the same task. This can also cause some heat issues.

Is overheating the clutch in race conditions really an issue for you? Or is it something you're just bringing up that doesn't really have any bearing on 99% of the races you run in?

I understand that LFS is a sim, but some people are taking it too far. No matter what you call it, it is still a video game played on a computer. Realism to the point of excluding people who are less fortunate is more damaging than it is good for the game. Giving people the option to exclude such people on a whim seems very silly. I race with/against a mouse user who can beat me, but my first thought is not "wow he shouldn't be allowed to race with me, he doesn't even have analog throttle/brake input", it's "argh, I'll get him next time!!"

Some methods of input have slight advantages or disadvantages, more or less control, a few extra things to go wrong, but somehow it seems to be wheel users who are least surprising when they're competative, even with all their extra burdens they must carry with them. If I manage to beat a G25 user it's not because of some advantage (especially with my gamepad) I have, it's because I'm better than them (or maybe they had some accident :x).

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 06:06

Very dangerous generalisation, there are many different implementations of automatic transmissions and I'm fairly certain every single one contains something that's prone to overheat under the right (or rather wrong) conditions. Can't really avoid it when transmitting torque, there'll always be friction.
No car I know of that is automatic involves a clutch.

Sure you may be able to overheat it.. but even then what difference would it make in an automatic transmission?
Nothing is touching except liquids in an automatic transmission, sure it may not work as efficient if it somehow overheats (which.. as you say may be possible in the wrong condition), but nothing bad that I know of could happen unless you let it sit on the surface of the sun until the metal melts, I mean I just don't understand how you could even overheat the liquid to the point where an automatic .. quits working, it takes a specific temperature to run at, and then there are coolers, I suppose if you did restrict the coolers from cooling the transmission .. well you'd have a problem

Really I am rambling because I'm at a loss as to what could happen to an overheated automatic transmission or an overheated transmission at that.
^me rambling

Okay so I looked it up, if you do overheat an automatic transmission, the connection between the engine and the transmission.. you can't ruin (well.. you could if you took it apart and broke it), but overheating an automatic is same as overheating a manaul.. either way it's the transmission, you'd be overheating the oil in the trans and the gears would grind each other to bits.. but that is AT/MT

Whereas in a MT car you have a clutch, in an automatic you have you have what's called a torque converter which is just a disc .. with a bunch of fluid in it.

pik_d

13th July 2009, 06:09

If you're not using a wheel, you're not driving a (virtual) car. You're playing a game. We're probably close to driving cars with gamepad-like controls, but not quite there yet. When we do, I will consider "gamepadders" drivers, but only if the car you're driving in LFS has the same kind of controls. Until then, only a wheel-and-pedals-user (or the equivalent controls for disabled people) is a driver to me. No doubt you can operate a virtual car in LFS with a gamepad, it's just not what I consider driving, at least not in a simulation.
So you'll let this sex offender in the pre-school playground or not? What I'm pointing out is that a) people who use different inputs are not necessarily causal gamers and b) people who use different inputs are not somehow a danger in your uber elite G25 only server.

My main point is that your goal (in that post, to keep casual gamers out of serious race servers) really cannot be obtained by keeping non-clutch users out. There are plenty of noobs who use wheels, and plenty of really good, consistent racers who use other stuff. I refuse to believe there is any real distinct correlation at all past the basic fact that the people who are trying LFS out for the first few days wouldn't have paid for a $300 wheel yet.

I'm not pissed at all, I don't even use it as an excuse, just pointed it out to make it clear that, in my experience, H-shifting is in fact slower than auto-clutch sequential shifting.
Well OK then, but I'd be upset if I cared about drag races and the only reason I lost was because I used a clutch and my opponant didn't.

amp88

13th July 2009, 06:16

Well.. ever take a manual car and go down a hill and shift into lower gears? That's how, I don't need to explain.

I literally facepalmed when I read this. Please go and read a book or a website or anything that defines what heel and toe is. Then come back and tell me how heel and toe increases engine braking.

Again.. if you know how to use a clutch properly.. this is your duty, if you feel as though you need to heel toe (which you don't) then learn to shift smoothly. Heel and toe doesn't reduce wear and tear, shifting correctly does. Heel and toe is just an accessory to blipping to reduce wear and tear

I'm obviously talking about racing. When you're threshold braking and you downshift with heel and toe you're less likely to imbalance the car which will give you better control on the transition into the corner. When you're racing every little bit counts.

My logic is that I personally don't know anyone that is good at heel and toe, that is what I'm getting at.. if you say you can't do this or you can't do that because you're to busy heel and toeing.. that is YOUR fault, that means you AREN'T good at it, if you were, you wouldn't be complaining about having to do this or that.

The brake pedal modulation whilst heel and toe'ing was actually discussed in some detail during a V8 Supercars race at Bathurst either in 2005 or 2006. The expert commentator (Neil Crompton) was discussing it with one of the most experienced V8 Supercars drivers (Greg Murphy) and because Murphy doesn't use the clutch in his car he's able to left foot brake and keep his right foot free for blipping on downchanges. If you think the difference in brake pedal modulation is caused by inexperience or lack of skill you're sorely mistaken.

When..? I have yet to be in a situation that I have to drop down a gear except for going up a hill I drop from 5th to 4th but that doesn't involve braking.. when do you ever in any car have to brake and shift at the same time?

Braking at the same time as downchanging in a car with a manual gearbox is a very common practice. I don't know anyone who doesn't brake and downshift at the same time.

Like I said.. these guys know what they're doing, not to mention they are RACING transmissions, the normal H gate cars in LFS.. would not involve a racing transmission, chances are any idiot to try heel toe and screwed it up.. would probably be a $2,000 or more mistake

Yea.. if you're racing.. and have a transmission made for racing. By the way, the time you waste downshifting probably skidding the tires.. is much more time than it takes to downshift in between braking and throttle to shift gears... Unless you have one foot on brake and one on throttle so when you are at the apex your throttle is halfway in as you're letting brake off... otherwise it doesn't work that way.

That YouTube video I linked to above was a road car with a road transmission and the driver was using heel and toe. Was he an idiot? Was he driving incorrectly? Or did he possibly know more than you?

Oh please, controlling throttle, brakes and the clutch is second nature to anyone who drives a manual car (or has enough time in LFS doing the same). Don't try to tell me that you have to actually think "OK I'm spinning... I should push the clutch in! Left foot go down now!" I suppose that my argument works best for people who don't use their feet to control throttle.

It's second nature but it takes one of your feet out of play. If you don't need to push in the clutch pedal you can use both the accelerator and the brake at the same time. That gives you more options to recover quickly than only being able to use one pedal at a time.

Is overheating the clutch in race conditions really an issue for you? Or is it something you're just bringing up that doesn't really have any bearing on 99% of the races you run in?

Yep. When I first got my G25 I was doing some TBO races online and I was having problems with clutch heat because I was finding it very difficult to make quick shifts and keep the timing of releasing the clutch perfect. When you're battling against people who have an advantage (i.e. people using auto clutch and sequential transmission) it can be difficult to keep a cool head.

morpha

13th July 2009, 06:23

My main point is that your goal (in that post, to keep casual gamers out of serious race servers) really cannot be obtained by keeping non-clutch users out.Guess that depends on your definition of serious racers. What I mean is people who want to achieve the closest experience to a real car in their simulation environment, the race results are completely irrelevant to me... well not completely, I'm a reasonably competetive guy, but I favor a fun driving experience over a good result.

There are plenty of noobs who use wheels, and plenty of really good, consistent racers who use other stuff.
True, but again, that's results, not the actual racing. Many of the "consistent racers" think in lap times, some Oval Junky (no offence, I mean a person on FM's oval junkies server) once told me to turn off FFB because minimal wheel jitter would cost me time... That's not experience or realism oriented racing, that's just lap times and race results.

Well OK then, but I'd be upset if I cared about drag races and the only reason I lost was because I used a clutch and my opponant didn't.
Well what I'm upset about is people who actually own a G25 and a working clutch pedal and H-shifter with it using the auto-clutch and paddles because it is faster.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 06:30

edit... nevermind! he just double clutched the on portion I watched.

Also you have yet to tell me about any ordinary person that can jump in a car and heel toe and expect perfect results.. even pros don't get it right every time. But does it matter? Not really no.. A blip is a good estimate, no one is perfect at heel & toe, sure I may be contradicting myself it may seem, but am I really? You have yet to prove to me how more efficient a heel toe turn is faster than not.

Enlighten me more about the purpose of heel and toe on an ordinary car driving down the street.. I fail to see again why you would need to shift from for example 5 to 4 to 3 and even to 2.. when you could save yourself, the clutch, the car, and the transmission by braking like a normal person, slowing down, and going from 5 to 2.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 06:42

Also there is one thing that hasn't come to mention yet about this, I will make reference to your video of Senna driving that NSX.

NSX is a sports car, you know what, for this instance I will go as far as saying it's a super car in comparison to what we're working with here.

The NSX is far from an ordinary car, I had the chance to drive one once but I declined because that was when I had only driven one other manual car before in my life.

Anyways, we were talking about this on the Mazda forum I'm part of, people who toe heel, and you know what we came to the conclusion...?

It's near pointless for a normal car. Why? Go get in your car and look how far apart your brake and gas pedals are, doesn't matter if its a manual, it can be an automatic car, go look how far apart they are. Can you toe heel that? Sure if you have a foot the size of Shaq. It's stupid and can be dangerous in a real car if you don't know what you're doing since most people can't regulate the brake that way.

Now, looking back at the video of Senna in the NSX note how much closer the brake and gas pedal is.. why is this? Because it is made to do this.. and why was it made to do that? Because it's a sports car, that's why, and even its pedals aren't even that close, go sit in a Ferrari and see how close those suckers are!

Again like I said... the only car you would toe heel in LFS would be the FZR, that is it.

pik_d

13th July 2009, 06:46

Yep. When I first got my G25 I was doing some TBO races online and I was having problems with clutch heat because I was finding it very difficult to make quick shifts and keep the timing of releasing the clutch perfect. When you're battling against people who have an advantage (i.e. people using auto clutch and sequential transmission) it can be difficult to keep a cool head.
But how about now? Is it still an issue?

Guess that depends on your definition of serious racers. What I mean is people who want to achieve the closest experience to a real car in their simulation environment, the race results are completely irrelevant to me... well not completely, I'm a reasonably competetive guy, but I favor a fun driving experience over a good result.
So does this mean I'm not allowed to have fun on your server because I wrap my hands around something that's different from what you hold? Are us non-pure drivers not still having a fun driving experience? Is your amount of fun diminished because you raced someone who uses a gamepad?

True, but again, that's results, not the actual racing. Many of the "consistent racers" think in lap times, some Oval Junky (no offence, I mean a person on FM's oval junkies server) once told me to turn off FFB because minimal wheel jitter would cost me time... That's not experience or realism oriented racing, that's just lap times and race results.
What is "many" here? Is it the very top of the top, which in fact isn't really that many? There are people who go to extremes to win at whatever. If turning off FFB saves them a tenth of a second over a race distance then maybe that gives them enjoyment, squeezing out every ounce of speed. Maybe that's their fun driving experience.

Well what I'm upset about is people who actually own a G25 and a working clutch pedal and H-shifter with it using the auto-clutch and paddles because it is faster.
You've got control issues then dude. I think that's what this is really about. You've got control issues and you can't stand that people are "settling" for an inferior race experience.

amp88

13th July 2009, 06:46

Enlighten me more about the purpose of heel and toe on an ordinary car driving down the street.. I fail to see again why you would need to shift from for example 5 to 4 to 3 and even to 2.. when you could save yourself, the clutch, the car, and the transmission by braking like a normal person, slowing down, and going from 5 to 2.

This is the important part. You think heel and toe is going down through every gear in the gearbox from your current gear to the target gear (e.g. 6 -> 5 -> 4 -> 3 -> 2) whereas heel and toe is simply the act of using the right foot to blip the throttle as you make a shift. You can skip gears on the downshift and still be heel and toe'ing. I think this is what you've failed to understand which has led you to think heel and toe will help your engine braking (going back through the gears will provide more engine braking than going straight from current gear to target gear (e.g. 6 -> 2).

Also you have yet to tell me about any ordinary person that can jump in a car and heel toe and expect perfect results.. even pros don't get it right every time. But does it matter? Not really no.. A blip is a good estimate, no one is perfect at heel & toe, sure I may be contradicting myself it may seem, but am I really? You have yet to prove to me how more efficient a heel toe turn is faster than not.

Obviously it takes time to practice the technique and refine it. The average person couldn't care less about how to downshift, nevermind an advanced technique such as heel and toe. However, as I said above, I used to heel and toe on almost every downshift when I drove a turbo diesel car because there was a lot of engine braking. By synchronising the engine revs I could make smoother shifts than just shifting without a blip.

But how about now? Is it still an issue?

I don't really drive with manual clutch and transmission in LFS any more because it's a disadvantage against a field of people who use auto clutch and sequential. I'd rather be on a level playing field than have the satisfaction of driving 'properly'. That's why I'd like to see an option for banning auto clutch and sequential shifting because it would ensure a level playing field.

kingcars

13th July 2009, 06:55

Ok wow...I dont think this guy knows anything about what he's talkin about...

No car I know of that is automatic involves a clutch.

Oh really?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AOD-ALTO-3-4-9-CLUTCH-PACK-M-A76106CHPK_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c6 6Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1205Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_ trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem4a8a1d60b6QQitem Z320144761014QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fA ccessories

Clutches are used, just in a different fashion.

but nothing bad that I know of could happen unless you let it sit on the surface of the sun until the metal melts, I mean I just don't understand how you could even overheat the liquid to the point where an automatic .. quits working, it takes a specific temperature to run at, and then there are coolers, I suppose if you did restrict the coolers from cooling the transmission .. well you'd have a problem

Without a beefy transmission cooler, it's not hard to overheat an automatic under racing conditions.

Really I am rambling because I'm at a loss as to what could happen to an overheated automatic transmission or an overheated transmission at that.

From what I've been reading, you're at a loss for just about everything in this conversation.

Okay so I looked it up, if you do overheat an automatic transmission, the connection between the engine and the transmission.. you can't ruin (well.. you could if you took it apart and broke it)

:rolleyes:

Whereas in a MT car you have a clutch, in an automatic you have you have what's called a torque converter which is just a disc .. with a bunch of fluid in it.

Thank you Captain Obvious :thumb:

You have yet to prove to me how more efficient a heel toe turn is faster than not.

The argument is that it tends to be SLOWER and less consistent than using an auto/sequential setup...hence the idea for the whole server option to begin with. If you're talking about two manual/clutch cars, one doing heel toe and another not doing heel toe, there's not really a SPEED difference, but heel toe is for keeping the car stable under heavy braking. The guy not using heel toe is more likely to bog/lock the rear wheels. It can happen when driving TBO cars in LFS if you don't get it right.

I fail to see again why you would need to shift from for example 5 to 4 to 3 and even to 2.. when you could save yourself, the clutch, the car, and the transmission by braking like a normal person, slowing down, and going from 5 to 2.

Please...PLEASE tell me you're joking. Ok, I tell ya what. Go hop in the XRT and race on Blackwood. Going into turn 1 in 5th gear, brake where you normally brake but don't downshift. Tell me how it goes for you. :thumbsup:

Oh and...you need to get a lot more manual transmission experience under your belt in order to be taken seriously in this conversation.

On another note...my laptimes are still as good if not better than many auto/seq users. Not sure why amp apparently has such a huge problem keeping up.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 06:57

Okay I wasn't sure if you were one of those people that shifted down each gear or went straight to target gear like me.

Either way.. I still have yet to be in a situation that I have to brake and shift at the same time.
Like I said, it's dangerous if you don't do it properly.

The way I drive is I brake until I have to, clutch in, shift, blip, clutch out, throttle in.

They keep the pedals.. well.. really it's just because of everyone with different size feet, but if you're driving like a hot head shifting while braking.. if you screw up, then you better know what you're doing otherwise you're going to cause an accident and possibly total your car by locking it up, not being in a gear, all because you were to worried about making a perfect shift than steering, instead, your screw up has caused the car to become unsettled, and you're in the middle of a turn.. it's a bad combination.
That is why you don't toe heel in a car, because there is no need to, you slow down, shift, and then put down the throttle.

kingcars

13th July 2009, 07:02

Why are we talking about every day road driving? Has nothing to do with LFS.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:03

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AOD-ALTO-3-4-9-CLUTCH-PACK-M-A76106CHPK_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c6 6Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1205Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_ trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem4a8a1d60b6QQitem Z320144761014QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fA ccessories

Clutches are used, just in a different fashion.
Oh em jesus, really? Clutches for the orbit gears? Nice try, but that doesn't even get close to the flywheel.

Without a beefy transmission cooler, it's not hard to overheat an automatic under racing conditions.
Yea.. and when are you driving an automatic under "racing conditions"?

Thank you Captain Obvious :thumb:
It's there for reference for people following the argument and don't understand, nice try smart allec

The argument is that it tends to be SLOWER and less consistent than using an auto/sequential setup...hence the idea for the whole server option to begin with. If you're talking about two manual/clutch cars, one doing heel toe and another not doing heel toe, there's not really a SPEED difference, but heel toe is for keeping the car stable under heavy braking. The guy not using heel toe is more likely to bog/lock the rear wheels. It can happen when driving TBO cars in LFS if you don't get it right.
Yea and the guy being the idiot downshifting before the turn is the one locking up the wheels because that isn't what you do....

Please...PLEASE tell me you're joking. Ok, I tell ya what. Go hop in the XRT and race on Blackwood. Going into turn 1 in 5th gear, brake where you normally brake but don't downshift. Tell me how it goes for you. :thumbsup:
It goes just like it should, you shift in the deadzone between no braking and no throttle.. it's how it's been going since racing started.

@kingcars, talking about real cars because this would only affect the cars we would be able to drive on a daily basis that have H gate shifters, only car in LFS that has an H gate shifter that isn't typical is the FZR so we're leaving it out.. that.. make any sense?

morpha

13th July 2009, 07:05

So does this mean I'm not allowed to have fun on your server because I wrap my hands around something that's different from what you hold? Are us non-pure drivers not still having a fun driving experience? Is your amount of fun diminished because you raced someone who uses a gamepad?Why does this have to be so hard? If people want to race other wheel-, or specifically clutch users, they should be able to set this as requirement for joining the race. That's all this is about.

What is "many" here? Is it the very top of the top, which in fact isn't really that many? There are people who go to extremes to win at whatever. If turning off FFB saves them a tenth of a second over a race distance then maybe that gives them enjoyment, squeezing out every ounce of speed. Maybe that's their fun driving experience.What is driving to you? How does controlling a virtual car with a gamepad qualify as driving? What is driving? Define it, maybe I can agree with you on your definition, but by my definition, taking realism away also takes the driving away.

You've got control issues then dude. I think that's what this is really about. You've got control issues and you can't stand that people are "settling" for an inferior race experience.

I don't even know what you mean by that, but if you think I have issues, what do you think about people who buy a G25 to use 270° of rotation, auto-clutch and the paddles? Renders the G25 completely pointless and yes, I do have issues with people braging about their G25 if that's their idea of how it is to be used.
I just support this idea because I think people in pursuit of a realistic simulation should be able to race like-minded people without having to set up an InSim application.

kingcars

13th July 2009, 07:05

Yea.. and when are you driving an automatic under "racing conditions"?

This forum is for improvements for the game, no? A RACING game.

It goes just like it should, you shift in the deadzone between no braking and no throttle.. it's how it's been going since racing started.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha, epic fail. I've NEVER seen a race car driver do that.

Like I said, TBO cars are good examples of cars that are more stable with heel-toe. Those are normal cars in LFS.

amp88

13th July 2009, 07:06

It goes just like it should, you shift in the deadzone between no braking and no throttle.. it's how it's been going since racing started.

Huh? So racing drivers will leave the car in the gear they were in just before the braking zone then brake down to the target speed then change down to the target gear then enter the corner? Next you'll be telling me racing drivers brake in straight lines because it's "dangerous" to trail brake.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:07

This forum is for improvements for the game, no? A RACING game.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha, epic fail
Not sure about the epic fail part but...

This forum subsection is for improvements and we are making an argument as to why/why not this option should be implemented

Like I said.. who has an automatic transmission in 'racing' conditions..

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:09

Huh? So racing drivers will leave the car in the gear they were in just before the braking zone then brake down to the target speed then change down to the target gear then enter the corner? Next you'll be telling me racing drivers brake in straight lines because it's "dangerous" to trail brake.
A lot of cars it is dangerous to trail brake, why are you going to prove to me that diving into a turn to fast you have to brake all the way through it a good idea?

Sure.. why not, which is more important to the driver, .25 seconds? Or the entire race?

Besides, if you're going to trail brake and make it worth it then your marks have to be perfect, otherwise you will miss the apex and be on the gas later, thus being passed down a straight.

kingcars

13th July 2009, 07:10

Not sure about the epic fail part but...

Epic fail because you're WRONG. Show me ONE video of a race car driver NOT downshifting during corner ENTRANCE. Watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMur6TPkrM

See how he downshifts through EACH gear BEFORE entering the turn? I also dont see a SINGLE mid-turn downshift. Yeah...

This forum subsection is for improvements and we are making an argument as to why/why not this option should be implemented

Like I said.. who has an automatic transmission in 'racing' conditions..

The people who play this game with auto shifting/clutch enabled, genius.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:13

Epic fail because you're WRONG. Show me ONE video of a race car driver NOT downshifting during corner ENTRANCE. Watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMur6TPkrM
See how he downshifts through EACH gear BEFORE entering the turn? I also dont see a SINGLE mid-turn downshift. Yeah...
The people who play this game with auto shifting/clutch enabled, genius.
We aren't talking about the game anymore, we're talking about real cars... genius.

By the way, show me a video of you doing that in a real car and I will say fine, but once again everyone is showing me videos of professional drivers doing their work, I would like to see you do something like that....

amp88

13th July 2009, 07:14

A lot of cars it is dangerous to trail brake, why are you going to prove to me that diving into a turn to fast you have to brake all the way through it a good idea?

Sure.. why not, which is more important to the driver, .25 seconds? Or the entire race?

Besides, if you're going to trail brake and make it worth it then your marks have to be perfect, otherwise you will miss the apex and be on the gas later, thus being passed down a straight.

You learn the technique over time so you can make judgements on how deep you can brake, how much brake pressure you can carry into the corner etc. You don't just go out and start braking to the apex carrying massive speed. It seems to me like your understanding of vehicle dynamics, racing techniques and cars in general has come from some 1940s textbook. You really don't know anything about techniques drivers use these days. Please go and read something like Speed Secrets or another book on driving techniques.

kingcars

13th July 2009, 07:16

We aren't talking about the game anymore, we're talking about real cars... genius.

By the way, show me a video of you doing that in a real car and I will say fine, but once again everyone is showing me videos of professional drivers doing their work, I would like to see you do something like that....

Unfortunately for your "real car" argument, good pedal sets for VIDEO GAMES like the ONE THIS FORUM IS ABOUT have pedals SET UP for HEEL TOE. Understand? You think we're going to NOT use heel toe because the car we're driving might not have the exact same pedal spacing? Also, your whole "dont shift until mid turn" idiocy is WRONG, proven in that video. Would you like another video to prove you wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU1N3IERy6k

See how this guy ALSO downshifts through EACH gear BEFORE each turn? I still haven't seen a single driver keep his car in 5th, go mid corner and drop to 2nd. Try that in a sim (I'd love to see you race in GT Legends) and you'll be doing loops in a heartbeat.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:18

Yes okay.. but I'm saying if you got in a car you've never driven, and expected to make record lap times, it's going to take a LONG time, not all cars can trail brake that well.

But no ordinary person would fly into a turn and hope it trail brakes its ass into the apex

Like you said, it takes time.. yes.. that is what I am getting at, in no ordinary situation would you know this. Do you know how much speed you can take your car into a specific turn and expect to trail brake? Do you think you would even have the balls to trail brake your car? I know I wouldn't. Like a normal person you would be going slow the whole time.

Of course this is for the typical person.. who knows, you may do autox or otherwise in which case this doesn't partain but i'm speaking in the case of an ordinary person.

kingcars

13th July 2009, 07:20

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:20

Unfortunately for your "real car" argument, good pedal sets for VIDEO GAMES like the ONE THIS FORUM IS ABOUT have pedals SET UP for HEEL TOE. Understand? You think we're going to NOT use heel toe because the car we're driving might not have the exact same pedal spacing? Also, your whole "dont shift until mid turn" idiocy is WRONG, proven in that video. Would you like another video to prove you wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU1N3IERy6k

See how this guy ALSO downshifts through EACH gear BEFORE each turn? I still haven't seen a single driver keep his car in 5th, go mid corner and drop to 2nd. Try that in a sim (I'd love to see you race in GT Legends) and you'll be doing loops in a heartbeat.
Wow congratulations, once again you throw in a video of a professional driver.

Both of you I'm trying to put this very point across: Professional drivers (real ones) Vs Novice Vs those who don't know what the hell is going on!

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:23

And this has WHAT to do with LFS, where people are SUPPOSED to push the limits of the cars?
Apparently nothing seeing that forcing a clutch is supposed to make the game more realistic.

When personally my boxers would be brown if I drove my car like I do in LFS on a track.

No matter how hard to you try, LFS will never be real nor will any other game..

Until the sun turns into a red giant maybe and games are so real it's like the matrix where if you get shot.. you're dead.

kingcars

13th July 2009, 07:23

Wow congratulations, once again you throw in a video of a professional driver.

What you don't get is that people like me use the SAME EXACT TECHNIQUE IN LFS!

Apparently nothing seeing that forcing a clutch is supposed to make the game more realistic.

I'm not even arguing FOR it, but the idea behind it is to level the playing field. It's a lot tougher/more inconsistent to use clutch/h shifter.

When personally my boxers would be brown if I drove my car like I do in LFS on a track.

That's what the game is for.

No matter how hard to you try, LFS will never be real nor will any other game..

Exactly, hence why I don't get why you keep bringing up real cars' pedal spacing all the time.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:24

IN LFS!
Yep.. that's the ticket, just what I was looking for.

amp88

13th July 2009, 07:24

LFS is a racing simulator, not an everyday driving simulator (though the cruisers would probably disagree!). What applies on the road doesn't always apply here. Also, I have used trail braking on my current car (which is a Volvo automatic) and I'm trying to learn how to left foot brake better. Techniques from racing can be useful on the road in certain situations. If, for example, you're in a corner and you see a car stopped in the middle of the road up ahead, you're going to have to brake in the middle of the corner if you want to avoid that car. Trail braking can help you to understand what's happening (vehicle dynamics). Or you can learn to stay out wide on corner entry to give yourself a better view out of the corner (if you turn into a corner and hug the inside line you can have a more restricted view and your exit will be tighter than if you'd stayed towards the outside of the corner until the apex). If you spend your time on the road driving in idea conditions ("I'm going to brake in a straight line for this corner then change down gear then turn in") you're going to be unprepared for unexpected situations where you need to do things like brake in corners or change down gears when braking.

kingcars

13th July 2009, 07:26

Yep.. that's the ticket, just what I was looking for.

Good job being 100% counter productive to your argument. :rolleyes:

They were saying that forcing the clutch is to even the playing field since it's tougher to drive taht way. You argue against it, giving stupid reasons and examples (like how "real cars" dont have good pedal spacing for heel toe, despite the fact we're talking about a GAME), then you acknowledge the more difficult technique used when auto clutch is OFF? Fail.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:27

True I agree with you, in some situations.. but hold on there buddy, you and I both know that we probably know more about our cars and how they handle than most others on the road.

I tried to left foot brake my dad's GMC Jimmy.. that was a very bad decision on my part, never again will I two foot an automatic!

As for braking in straight lines, not.. necesarily, you have more time to react, if you are trail braking and you get mid turn and something happens, you are much more likely to disrupt the dynamics and throw the car off its path than the guy lazily going around the corner at a slower entry speed.

@king you need to end with that fail thing.
Plus what you just said doesn't make any sense really, of course I acknowledge it because toe heel is used every day by race drivers.. but what does that have anything to do with autoclutch, that's just the current off topic discussion.

My argument against it is that not everyone can afford a clutch etc.

amp88

13th July 2009, 07:31

True I agree with you, in some situations.. but hold on there buddy, you and I both know that we probably know more about our cars and how they handle than most others on the road.

To be honest I don't think you've demonstrated much of a knowledge of vehicle dynamics as I said above. I consider myself a novice but I like to learn. I read books, I watch videos of drivers etc.

pik_d

13th July 2009, 07:31

Why does this have to be so hard? If people want to race other wheel-, or specifically clutch users, they should be able to set this as requirement for joining the race. That's all this is about.
Because LFS has been a racing sim for everyone since its start. You didn't answer my question though. You are excluding people who are just as enthusiastic as yourself (though with different goals of how to play the game) in the name of fun, or the "experience" of the game. Other than being a control freak and wanting everyone to have the same goals in the game as you, I can't really understand your motives.

What is driving to you? How does controlling a virtual car with a gamepad qualify as driving? What is driving? Define it, maybe I can agree with you on your definition, but by my definition, taking realism away also takes the driving away.
Driving is using inputs to control a vehicle's motion. That's what I do, that's what you do, that's what mousers do. We can all be just as dedicated to the game.

I don't even know what you mean by that, but if you think I have issues, what do you think about people who buy a G25 to use 270° of rotation, auto-clutch and the paddles? Renders the G25 completely pointless and yes, I do have issues with people braging about their G25 if that's their idea of how it is to be used.
I just support this idea because I think people in pursuit of a realistic simulation should be able to race like-minded people without having to set up an InSim application.
I don't know what I think of them, but why do you take issue with it? People bragging are annoying regardless of whether or not they're "right" or "wrong" about their bragging. Besides in all my races I've hardly seen anyone brag about owning a G25, so many people do it's not really anything special. Some people who just got one after months of playing LFS may be exited about it and mention it, but that's it.

There are a few reasons I'm against this. The first one is personal, I don't want to be in XCNuse's position of not being able to find a decent server while everyone is excited about this new feature. It would really blow to see patch .6A or whatever it might show up in and realize "oh shit... I can't play in my favorite servers because they all only want to play with their own kind".

Secondly, I hardly even see the point. I don't feel as if I have any advantage over wheel drivers, so it can't be performance. I don't take the game, or individual races, any less seriously because I don't have a wheel, so hopefully it's still not "argh casual drivers ruining my racing experience, raping my children/G25s". From my point of view I really do see this as only a form of needless elitism and control that doesn't add or take anything away from your driving experience.

Some people decide to play the game a little differently, but that doesn't mean anything for you. That doesn't mean that you're going to suddenly have less fun if someone who uses a mouse joins your server.

kingcars

13th July 2009, 07:34

@king you need to end with that fail thing.

You first.

Plus what you just said doesn't make any sense really

Exactly...because your ARGUMENT makes no sense!

of course I acknowledge it because toe heel is used every day by race drivers.. but what does that have anything to do with autoclutch, that's just the current off topic discussion.

Wow dude, are you really that dense? Race drivers use heel toe because it's the BEST WAY to downshift a manual into the corner. Likewise, LFS drivers use heel toe when given a clutch/h shifter setup! Is it that hard to understand? Why would we be so foolish as to copy what successful race car drivers do in LFS cars because the real life counterparts might not have the correct pedal spacing? :rolleyes: The reason it relates to autoclutch is because autoclutch makes it a lot EASIER to do! Goodness gracious...

My argument against it is that not everyone can afford a clutch etc.

Hence why only a minority of servers would have this option on.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:34

To be honest I don't think you've demonstrated much of a knowledge of vehicle dynamics as I said above. I consider myself a novice but I like to learn. I read books, I watch videos of drivers etc.
Get me in a car and I do, maybe not written down but otherwise I know what I'm doing.

Chances are if you race LFS and don't wreck everyone or yourself, I'm pretty sure anyways that you probably know more about driving than anyone.. I should say _In America_ then to make it more clear.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:38

You first.
..Win!

Exactly...because your ARGUMENT makes no sense!
It does.. I promise

Wow dude, are you really that dense? Race drivers use heel toe because it's the BEST WAY to downshift a manual into the corner. Likewise, LFS drivers use heel toe when given a clutch/h shifter setup! Is it that hard to understand? The reason it relates to autoclutch is because autoclutch makes it a lot EASIER to do! Goodness gracious...
I wouldn't go as far to say it's the best.. It is just what is done nowadays.. who knows, someone may figure out a better way.. else.. how was toe-heel invented?
Also.. autoclutch in LFS is really not that great when downshifting to fast, it jitters a lot I think..

Hence why only a minority of servers would have this option on.
Hence what I said earlier about force cockpit and its abuse.

amp88

13th July 2009, 07:40

Some people decide to play the game a little differently, but that doesn't mean anything for you. That doesn't mean that you're going to suddenly have less fun if someone who uses a mouse joins your server.

Well, it does if you have a group of people who are all using wheels with manual clutch and manual transmission then someone joins the server who's using auto clutch and sequential because you know straight off that they could have an advantage over you. Say if tomorrow Scavier implemented a tuning system where you could upgrade your car with points you earned racing online. Some people would get a lot of points and be able to improve their car's performance relative to a standard car. Now if you're still driving a standard car and someone joins your server with a car that's got 10 bhp more than you and weighs 20 kilos less you're probably going to be quite annoyed because you know he's going to beat you unless you're an exceptionally good driver or he's an exceptionally bad driver. I see the auto clutch option in the same way. If you let server owners restrict their server to only people who use a manual transmission with a manual clutch and a steering wheel everyone's on a level playing field. Controller type and "driver aids" (which is what auto clutch is) don't come into it.

kingcars

13th July 2009, 07:43

It does.. I promise

Riiiiiight. Like how we should ignore common racing technique since it may not be doable in the real life car cause of its pedal spacing?

I wouldn't go as far to say it's the best.. It is just what is done nowadays..

Nowadays? It's been done for decades. Show us a better way of doing it, Oh Great One.

Hence what I said earlier about force cockpit and its abuse.

I've never had a problem changing view in servers. I always use cockpit view, but i do like to mess around with other views sometimes and have never been specced or kicked because of it. Just the other day, me and some friends tried racing with TV cam.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:46

Controller type and "driver aids" (which is what auto clutch is) don't come into it.
I don't know if you were around, but early on when Scawen was messing with the controller types, when the MRT came out specifically is when the keyboard 'stabilized' came, an argument like this was similar where people thought it was unfair for those running stabilized.. as you can see though, everyone got over it and there was no limit, just other people calling other people panzies for driving with a stabilized keyboard.

It all just came down to user preference.. Some people today don't use stabilization while a lot do.

I drove with keyboard today testing out sounds, I tell you what.. I couldn't drive at all without stablization lol

kingcars

13th July 2009, 07:48

Playing with a keyboard, no matter how many aids, is not an advantage of any kind. :tilt:

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:49

Riiiiiight. Like how we should ignore common racing technique since it may not be doable in the real life car cause of its pedal spacing?
No you're just confusing the context from when we were talking about real cars and nothing to do with LFS.

Nowadays? It's been done for decades. Show us a better way of doing it, Oh Great One.
Uh no, but how do you think the guy that came up with toe heel felt? There is always something better out there, you just haven't found it yet.
Don't be so snappy.

I've never had a problem changing view in servers. I always use cockpit view, but i do like to mess around with other views sometimes and have never been specced or kicked because of it. Just the other day, me and some friends tried racing with TV cam.
You also haven't been part of LFS that long.

About the keyboard thing, I wasn't at home I was just messing around and got bored with Rigs of Rod (great game.. its free.. download it! enjoy it!) uhm. As for not being great.. you sure? A lot of the WRs used to be mostly keyboard and mouse users believe it or not.

pik_d

13th July 2009, 07:51

Well, it does if you have a group of people who are all using wheels with manual clutch and manual transmission then someone joins the server who's using auto clutch and sequential because you know straight off that they could have an advantage over you. Say if tomorrow Scavier implemented a tuning system where you could upgrade your car with points you earned racing online. Some people would get a lot of points and be able to improve their car's performance relative to a standard car. Now if you're still driving a standard car and someone joins your server with a car that's got 10 bhp more than you and weighs 20 kilos less you're probably going to be quite annoyed because you know he's going to beat you unless you're an exceptionally good driver or he's an exceptionally bad driver. I see the auto clutch option in the same way. If you let server owners restrict their server to only people who use a manual transmission with a manual clutch and a steering wheel everyone's on a level playing field. Controller type and "driver aids" (which is what auto clutch is) don't come into it.

Your point would hold water if auto-clutchers were routinely at the top of leagues and races in general. As I said before I don't really feel like I have any advantage over clutch users. Your argument is almost entirely theoretical and if not, marginal.

morpha

13th July 2009, 07:52

Because LFS has been a racing sim for everyone since its start. You didn't answer my question though. You are excluding people who are just as enthusiastic as yourself (though with different goals of how to play the game) in the name of fun, or the "experience" of the game. Other than being a control freak and wanting everyone to have the same goals in the game as you, I can't really understand your motives.I am excluding people who don't use controls alike to those of a real car from the same kind of experience, because it just is not the same with a game pad and I'm fairly certain you will agree with me on this.
I'm not a control freak, I'm not asking for this to be LFS wide, in fact I noted several times now that nobody asked for that. This is still just about a server-side option.

Driving is using inputs to control a vehicle's motion. That's what I do, that's what you do, that's what mousers do. We can all be just as dedicated to the game.For me it is only driving if my controls match the ones that are displayed on the screen, because that's what's being simulated by the simulation. You may be dedicated to the game, but certainly not to simulating a real car with it.

(A lot of stuff I can hopefully answer with just one block of clunky text)
I do not wish to force anyone into driving for the same reasons I do or using the same input method, I want to be able to race with people opting for realism over results. Auto clutch is unrealistic, therefor it cannot be allowed on a server meant to be used for the most realistic virtual racing experience. What's wrong with me having the option to allow or disallow auto clutch? I'm not controlling anyone by doing so, I just control their access to my race track. That's my right as server owner/administrator and it doesn't make me a control freak, that might just be my set of rules.
Every manual car in LFS has three pedals, a gear lever and a steering wheel, the only realistic input for these cars is a set of three pedals, a gear lever and a steering wheel, ... and a handbrake, several switches, etc. but I think you see my point. Controlling a car in LFS using a gamepad simply is not realistic and on a server where realism is emphasized, forcing people to use a clutch is a perfectly logical thing to do.

Just look at the FCV option, of all the npn-empty servers running right now, exactly 1, yes ONE, has FCV turned on.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:53

Your point would hold water if auto-clutchers were routinely at the top of leagues and races in general. As I said before I don't really feel like I have any advantage over clutch users. Your argument is almost entirely theoretical and if not, marginal.
I honestly feel slower without my clutch and H shifter..

Then again in the end I'm not trying to set world record lap times in the middle of a race, rather.. have fun.

amp88

13th July 2009, 07:54

Your point would hold water if auto-clutchers were routinely at the top of leagues and races in general. As I said before I don't really feel like I have any advantage over clutch users. Your argument is almost entirely theoretical and if not, marginal.

Aren't they? I've just taken a look at some of the hotlap charts and auto clutch is on on the vast majority of the quick laps for road cars. If there's an advantage over a single lap it can be multiplied over the race distance plus we need to remember about the possibility of missing gears or wrong slotting.

edit: How many people are there in the hotlap charts who use manual clutch and h shifters?

Falcon140

13th July 2009, 07:55

:trophy::trophy::trophy: Dumbest argument ever award.

:munching_ But a good read.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:56

This is still just about a server-side option.
Yes but who is going to use this option..?
Leagues. That is who.

Leagues have control over everyone anyway, they know who has what setup etc. So really turning on an option isn't going to change a single thing.

All it will do is just be a toy (like I said earlier) for other server managers to play around with for a little while until everyone starts complaining because they don't have a clutch.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 07:59

Aren't they? I've just taken a look at some of the hotlap charts and auto clutch is on on the vast majority of the quick laps for road cars. If there's an advantage over a single lap it can be multiplied over the race distance plus we need to remember about the possibility of missing gears or wrong slotting.

edit: How many people are there in the hotlap charts who use manual clutch and h shifters?
Not sure about the edit part, I don't know if the devs have knowledge over that (I guess they could though..)

We need to set a basis as to which cars though. The only cars you can use an H shifter or sequential is the lower end cars (and FZR) I can see it almost making a difference in FZR, but anyone makes so many mistakes per lap the time difference I just .. I see what you mean, but I still think the time difference is so little it makes up for all the mistakes.

I still think my idea at the beginning was a good idea.. weight penalty for using an auto clutch vs not.

Falcon140

13th July 2009, 08:05

+1 to the weight penalty for auto-clutch users.

Not Sure

13th July 2009, 08:19

Did not read the thread, too much negativity.

+1 for a server side option to force manual clutch

Do not want to race with cheaters

pik_d

13th July 2009, 08:19

+1 to the weight penalty for auto-clutch users.
I've never noticed any advantage in a race that could be attributed to auto clutching. If I'm better than people I beat them, if they're better than me they beat me. Why should I carry extra weight? This is an even worse solution.

amp88, look through all of the pages for the hotlap charts. It's pretty solidly 90% auto-clutchers on every page. Besides, after the first half second-second it's all down to skill anyway. You can't blame it on the clutch when people are 10 seconds down. If you really want to prove that auto-clutching is faster do some testing yourself, or get others to do it. Put some effort into it too, an hour with clutch and an hour without, see how much difference it actually makes. You won the R2F1 with a clutch, though it's not really as big a deal since most (all?) of the cars can be shifted without a clutch. I'm not too sure about the FBM or MRT5.

morpha, yeah, there's only a few FCV servers now but XCNuse was describing that when the option came out it was used by a lot of servers. I'd really hate to go through that transistion period. So driving to you is different from driving to me. Why does that mean you don't want to race me?

pik_d

13th July 2009, 08:20

Did not read the thread, too much negativity.

+1 for a server side option to force manual clutch

Do not want to race with cheaters
Good lord. Maybe there should be one or two servers to keep these kind of elitist bigots away from the rest of the LFS community.

morpha

13th July 2009, 08:27

So driving to you is different from driving to me. Why does that mean you don't want to race me?

I don't know if I want to race you or not because I probably never did, or if I did, I can't remember. Should I ever want to race within a group of clutch users, I don't want to have to ask everyone if they are using auto clutch or have an InSim take care of it, I'll just go to a server with no auto clutch or flick on the option on my server and enjoy a session with like-minded (i.e. in pursuit of most realistic simulation) people. What's elitist about that?

As for the transition period, I can't imagine that to take long. As I said, admins generally don't want their servers empty, which most of them will be since there are indeed a lot of people using auto clutch. I don't think many admins will turn the option on in the first place, there's no peer pressure or anything that could cause a chain reaction.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 08:33

Did not read the thread, too much negativity.

+1 for a server side option to force manual clutch

Do not want to race with cheaters
You wouldn't do very well in the real world of racing with an attitude like that.. no one ever said racing was perfectly fair.
Which is another reason why I am against this completely.. Racing has never been fair.

pik_d

13th July 2009, 08:33

I don't know if I want to race you or not because I probably never did, or if I did, I can't remember. Should I ever want to race within a group of clutch users, I don't want to have to ask everyone if they are using auto clutch or have an InSim take care of it, I'll just go to a server with no auto clutch or flick on the option on my server and enjoy a session with like-minded people. What's elitist about that?
Pretty much all of it. Think about what you're saying from the point of view of someone who has say a DFP and takes LFS seriously enough to be in plenty of leagues and be plenty quick. I'm sure there's plenty of people who fall into this catagory. Think about how it sounds to say "well I don't want to race with you because you're not (really driving/as hard core/as serious/as dedicated/however you choose to word it so it doesn't sound elitist) enough for me" to that person. That doesn't seem elitist to basically say "you're not good enough to race me/on my server" to someone who takes this game serious?

As for the transition period, I can't imagine that to take long. As I said, admins generally don't want their servers empty, which most of them will be since there are indeed a lot of people using auto clutch. I don't think many admins will turn the option on in the first place, there's no peer pressure or anything that could cause a chain reaction.
There was probably no peer pressure to turn on FCV but XCNuse still had issues.

morpha

13th July 2009, 08:47

I think someone who sits in a motion simulator might feel a little more comfortable being surrounded by people who know what it's like, there's probably a reason why all motion sim videos I've seen so far are single player...

Anyway, I didn't say I wouldn't race you, I said if I wanted to race people with at least a clutch (due to the context of this arguement), I'd like to have an option to ensure only clutch users can take part in the race. There are many restrictions in racing, why is it elitist to demand a clutch pedal that exists in the simulated car? If I decide to race against people with the same configuration, I'm suddenly an "elitist bigot"? Why do you even care whom I race? Where do you go for your oval racing? Probably to a server with some oval combo (and possibly "oval" in the name), pretty sure they won't allow you to change the track and put on another combo. If you see a server with no auto clutch, it's a no auto clutch server, just as an oval server is an oval server, a drift server is a drift server and so on.
What's your problem with having an option for no auto clutch? Besides the fear of it disrupting LFS online experience based on FCV, for which so far we only have XCNuse as witness (no offence).

pik_d

13th July 2009, 09:19

LFS is a driving simulator which strives to be as realistic as possible, though some consessions are going to have to be made. Some of those consessions are due to the fact that you can't feel every little thing about the car like you could in real life. This results in the F9 and F10 menus. Some conessions have to be made because you are only one person and you have no real team. This results in the F11 and F12 menues. Other such stuff has to be given that the driver wouldn't normally see or have control of.

Other consessions have to be made for those people who can't afford the best equipment, or choose to not buy it for whatever reason. This is why we have the ability to use gamepads and mice and keyboards. Calling us cheaters as Not Sure did really irks me because we're just using something made avaliable to us directly from the developers. Looking down at people who don't use a clutch (you view us as not even driving) is certainly a form of elitism. If you need me to spell it out any further, let me know.

So far as the bigotry, you seem like you would be against it if I told you that I was driving in LFS, or that a mouser is driving in LFS. I do believe that I am driving in LFS, not quite as realistically as you, but I'm still controling the direction of the car by steering and the speed of the car with the throttle, brakes and gears. You may not be a bigot in the strictest sense of the word but you seem pretty against those of us who drive differently.

I would never ever use auto gears or brake help, but I wouldn't refuse to race against anyone who did. Though, if they needed those aides, I would almost certainly be much faster than them anyway. On the other end of the scale, I would never dream of taking away your clutch pedal, and demanding that a clutch pedal is in your simulated car is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

Not Sure

13th July 2009, 09:32

Maybe my wording was unnecessary provocative. I just want to race with people that control the car with the same method I do. But feel free to call me elitist if that makes you feel better..

I would not dare to demand that I should be allowed to race with a wheel in a mouse only server. If some server was for force dynamics users only, I would not complain at all.

Auto clutch users have and will have plenty of servers to race on, so what's the harm in an option to ban auto clutch form certain servers? :shrug:

morpha

13th July 2009, 09:45

I would never ever use auto gears or brake help, but I wouldn't refuse to race against anyone who did.

Neither would or do I. Once again, this is about an option, not global enforcement. If I feel like it, I'll enable it or join a server where it is enabled, just like I join a drift server when I feel like drifting or an oval server when I feel like going round the oval.

iRacing does not support keyboard and mouse to control the vehicle, not at all. It works there, iRacing is fairly popular, does that make them all (drivers and developers) elitist bigots? What's so terrible about us having the same server side option?

psychometalist

13th July 2009, 10:03

iRacing allows auto-clutch though, if it's your argument.

edit: and btw what happened to this server thread? Seems dead for nearly two months.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=56395

morpha

13th July 2009, 10:08

iRacing allows auto-clutch though, if it's your argument.

Ha, touché :razz:
Only tried it for half an hour, didn't even know that.

Matrixi

13th July 2009, 10:21

+1 for server side option to do forced manual clutch, h-gate and 900 degrees.

NotAnIllusion

13th July 2009, 11:41

+1 for server side option to do forced auto-clutch, auto gears, and keyboard only.

gxgung

13th July 2009, 12:23

People don't use clutch and they keep talking about my ideea as beeing a **BAD** one. Do you have any ideea what I have to do to get from the first to the last gear ? No. YOU JUST PUSH A BUTTON! Whenever you want to accelerate, you just push a pedal or a button! You ALWAYS have engine break. Yeah, peace of cake, ain't it ? Well, for me, it's not.
Do you have any ideea what "matching revs" is ? Well, let me give you a picture. Let's say I am playing on FZT (over 400 HP and RWD) and I need to take a sharp turn in seccond gear. If I don't match the revolutions and I mistake by only 2000 RPM, I TURN AROUND! And a very happy player with auto-clutch just takes my position and sais ":)", probably thinking I am such a big idiot ... OK, let's say I take the turn perfectly (which is pretty hard when using Heel&Toe ... and that is the only way someone can match a auto-clutch player), but I can still mistake a gear when I am on the straight line, and still the auto-clutch player gets me ...
Sometimes you just want to be able to kick them out! Sometimes you want to play with guys who drive it realistic too! I don't say all the servers MUST have this option, I say that some servers SHOULD!

gxgung

13th July 2009, 13:05

Now, looking back at the video of Senna in the NSX note how much closer the brake and gas pedal is.. why is this? Because it is made to do this.. and why was it made to do that? Because it's a sports car, that's why, and even its pedals aren't even that close, go sit in a Ferrari and see how close those suckers are!
I have a Renault Megane 1.6 16V from 2007 and the pedals are possitioned for Heel&Toe. Every gasoline/manual transmission care has the pedals placed like this (VW Jetta is great for H&T, tested! :D ), because you need the technique when you start driving up a ramp.
The diesel engines have high torque at low revolutions and you can simply lift the clutch a little before releasing the break and H&T isn't needed, but on a gasoline car which has the highest torque at 4250RPM, you really need the give it some gas while holding the breaks in order to start your movement up a ramp.

L.E.: Using the hand-break is booring so don't bring that into dicussion.

geeman1

13th July 2009, 13:08

People don't use clutch and they keep talking about my ideea as beeing a **BAD** one.I use a clutch and I know it's a disadvantage, but I still think this is a bad idea.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 14:33

@gxgung, I have a complete setup I made and I PREFER it to autoclutch because of how much more fun it is... but me going down to school this time with my wheel, you can't pay me to take my entire setup, it takes up way to much space.

So for me, and those that can't afford it, it is unfair.
Again.. if you want 100% fairness which is.. I mean while we talk about realistic.. there is no such thing as a 100% fair race ever.

Also, your comment about heel toe going up a ramp doesn't make sense, why would you be downshifting going up a ramp and have to blip your throttle to keep the car steady?
If you're going up a ramp you put it in first gear and don't shift. Maybe I'm not reading what you said correctly but it doesn't make sense to me as why you would be downshifting going up a ramp. Or do you mean keeping it in first gear, and just braking and gas at same time so you don't go back? If that's the case, it would be much easier with the handbrake than the brake but whatever suits you I suppose.

tristancliffe

13th July 2009, 14:48

I'm not the only one, I'm defending everyone that doesn't use the cockpit view 24/7 because some of us don't have the graphical power to want to deal with cockpits seeing it kills FPS by almost 25%. Three or four years ago you might had a point. But any computer built since then should be able to get 100fps with everything on max in LFS, with full AA, high res textures, and all of that nonsense on a 27" screen. On a 17" screen you'll be able to max everything out even on an iPhone CPU.

LFS just isn't that taxing on computers. My PC I bought in 2003 (now my work computer that I am typing on right now) easily gets 50fps online, my last PC that died a couple of months ago would easily get 130fps, and my current PC would get over 200fps (and that was before my 4870 arrived, so it might be a few more now). And all of those have been 'affordable', and by no means cutting edge for their era.

Sure, if you last bought a PC in 2004 (or a really, really cheap one in 2006) then you might struggle a bit (perhaps dipping to 40fps at times), but that is now a minority and shouldn't really be taken account of - see how many people want more graphical features, more polygons, more this, more that. You yourself have stated you want higher polygon models in game. All of these mean that LFS can't sit still trying to support the "I've got a shit PC, but I don't want to be left behind in the technology revolution" brigade.

Glenn67

13th July 2009, 15:37

I really don't think you have anything to worry about XC, there is no way in hell that there is enough people in LFS land with a preference for axis clutch and/or H pattern shifter to ever see an option like forced clutch use ever being remotely abused in LFS :p If any admins tried to do it there servers would die a natural death in a few weeks max :shrug: Bit like when there was a move to get people to drive the LX cars in the last year or so, no matter how supportive some of us forumers might be for the LX's the reality is that the vast majority of LFS drivers vote with their wheels, mice or keyboards and stay away in preference for other cars... the same would be true for forced clutch use.

I personally like the option to be able to race on a clutch, H-pattern server. Doesn't mean I'll spend all my time on them if there was more of them, it just means I'd spend some of my time on them if there were some about. As referenced to earlier OverBoardProductions had such a server up already that could force these options, I did race on there sometimes and thoroughly enjoyed racing against other clutch, H-Pattern users. Infact it was that server that spured me onto getting off my butt and making a sim racing cockpit, which has brought back enjoyment for many games, sims long forgotten and is even perking interest in new sims (for me) such as xplane, iracing, rfactor, etc again.

I'm often bemused that there is such strong views oposing some proposed options in LFS while elsewhere the mases cry that LFS is dying because of the lack of options.
Should we all just return to LFS S1H? I know a few that would mount an argument that it was more of a pure race simulator at that point in development, but for me if LFS was still like S1H I'd have moved on permently not because S1H wasn't fun but because I would have been long since bored of the sterilness of it.

My hope for LFS is that as it continues to mature it will be less and less of a sterile environment. At the moment it is still far too easy to do near perfect laps, lap after lap after lap after lap. For example this weekend in V8Supercars the qualifying sessions was able to produce much different qualifying lap times in the first half to the last half. Forcing clutch, H-Pattern allows an extra element of variability to be introduced which then adds to the immersion, tension and excitment of racing. We have other means to do this already in LFS mainly being wind which is used very rarely online, so I'd seriously doubt that forced clutch would ever be used any more than wind currently is.

FTR - I spent the first 2 years in LFS with an xbox controller, the second 2 years with a momo and the last year an a half with G25.

gxgung

13th July 2009, 15:49

Also, your comment about heel toe going up a ramp doesn't make sense, why would you be downshifting going up a ramp and have to blip your throttle to keep the car steady?

How can you downshift when you aren't moving ? :))
Dude, do you even have a driving licence ? If you do, did you buy it ? Or did you steal it?

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 16:05

How can you downshift when you aren't moving ? :))
Dude, do you even have a driving licence ? If you do, did you buy it ? Or did you steal it?
Same way you shift a car when it's standing still.. :shrug: I suppose lol
And yes, I've had my license for 5 years now.
Good grief that long?! that's just under a quarter of my entire life, wow!

@Tristan I know, but remember, a lot of people don't have money to upgrade stuff, heck if I still had my desktop, chances are it would be running the same specs it was, Pentium 4 2.4 GHz with some terrible Nvidia card that was top of the line probably back in 2002. With my laptop I have to run no AA an no AF to keep the FPS reasonable to race online, it runs considerably faster than my desktop, especially since I put a high end heat sink on my graphicss card and can OC it in my laptop, otherwise I wouldn't be getting flat 50 FPS, but rather mid/high 30s.
And remember I don't use in cockpit view, if I use it I have low and steady 40s that can dip down 40% typically in all views.

@Glenn, that's what I'm saying.. if I want to have fun, I use my H shifter and have a good time, but if I want to be fast I don't mess with it because there is such a high chance I will mess it up with it. But as I was saying, the only times I ever was trying to hit fast laptimes was when I was part of the OLFSL (oOriginal LFS League) but that was short lived because I kept having race time issues with my life.

RenvoN

13th July 2009, 16:25

Are you guys afraid to lose a race for someone who uses auto-clutch and sequential shifter? lol

I use mouse to steer, didn't buy the license (won it in a champ, check my signature), and have no money to buy a wheel, so what? is it really fair to exclude people like me from some servers just because I am poor and have not enough money to buy even a wheel like momo that doesn't have a clutch pedal? Momo costs around $225 (around R$450) in Brazil, G25 costs $600 (around R$1200).

Anyway, I don't think Scawen is going to take this thread seriously. :)

Matrixi

13th July 2009, 17:39

Anyone in the world can afford to buy an LFS license along with a G25, it's all a matter of prioritization. Well, okay, some African kid living in a hut propably can't afford them, but you get my point. Seems even a bit strange of someone how hasn't even spent a single dime on LFS to come spurting out such statements.

Those who have gone and blasted away tons of money (even if they are poor!) in to a hardcore racing system/cockpit aren't allowed to race against other hardcore simmers for equal level racing because why exactly? I don't get it. It would be a minority within a minority anyway, arcade racers (engage flamewar) wouldn't even notice the difference in the amount of racers in the servers they are at.

I can't even bother racing in public servers at all these days, since I know they're mixed with people who drive with mice and chasecams and other not-so-realistic options which I despise. If anything, allowing forced HC settings would increase the amount of online racers, such as myself.

tmehlinger

13th July 2009, 18:11

Going to hazard a guess that morpha wants to force manual clutch so he has a marginal chance at winning when someone in front of him misses a shift. :scratchch

Anyway... if you're really into using manual clutch, then use it. I don't understand why there has to be an option to "force" manual clutch (unless you really like racing with only five other people... there are tons of G25 users who never touch the clutch). I always race with manual clutch because I like enjoy the added realism, but I don't get butthurt whenever someone using auto clutch gets past me. It just motivates me to get better at heel-toeing.

pik_d races with a 360 controller (as he pointed out) and I've never been pissed because he won with an "inferior" controller and the evil auto clutch... he obviously understands how to drive the car very effectively (which is what really matters), he just uses a different input device. Get over it.

edit: I should clarify... I'm not totally opposed to a force manual clutch option, server ops can do whatever the hell they want. I just think there are a lot of people giving terrible arguments for it.

kingcars

13th July 2009, 18:32

Anyway... if you're really into using manual clutch, then use it. I don't understand why there has to be an option to "force" manual clutch (unless you really like racing with only five other people... there are tons of G25 users who never touch the clutch). I always race with manual clutch because I like enjoy the added realism, but I don't get butthurt whenever someone using auto clutch gets past me. It just motivates me to get better at heel-toeing.

+1

Though I honestly don't see the harm of having maybe 2 or 3 (at most) servers where all clutch/h shifter users can go and just race because it's fun to race against people using the same exact setup. The option will not be abused because there simply arent enough clutch/h shifter users to support a lot of servers.

palilulac

13th July 2009, 18:35

Bad idea for plenty of reasons.

But the best reason is

What about the 95% of the players that dont have a clutch pedal?

Don't count on anything like this ever happening.

:thumb::thumb: Yes sir!

RenvoN

13th July 2009, 19:13

pik_d races with a 360 controller (as he pointed out) and I've never been pissed because he won with an "inferior" controller and the evil auto clutch... he obviously understands how to drive the car very effectively (which is what really matters), he just uses a different input device. Get over it.

+1, someone got my point. :thumb:

morpha

13th July 2009, 19:39

Going to hazard a guess that morpha wants to force manual clutch so he has a marginal chance at winning when someone in front of him misses a shift. :scratchch

I really do NOT give a damn about the result, why do people keep attacking me for something I never even suggested. All I want is to be able to race people who, like me, aim for realism. It's really not about the result, as I said several times throughout this thread.
A gamepad is NOT REALISTIC, it's as simple as that.

Seriously, if you don't even bother reading what I actually said, do not attack me.

amp88

13th July 2009, 19:48

Not sure about the edit part, I don't know if the devs have knowledge over that (I guess they could though..)

We need to set a basis as to which cars though. The only cars you can use an H shifter or sequential is the lower end cars (and FZR) I can see it almost making a difference in FZR, but anyone makes so many mistakes per lap the time difference I just .. I see what you mean, but I still think the time difference is so little it makes up for all the mistakes.

Yes, the average driver makes a lot of mistakes in a lap (braking slightly too early or slightly too late, locking wheels, running wide, power oversteer etc), but you're more liable to make MORE mistakes when your hands and feet are busier with the process of actually changing gears compared to just flicking a paddle or pressing a button to change gears.

I still think my idea at the beginning was a good idea.. weight penalty for using an auto clutch vs not.

Weight penalty is a bad idea, IMO.

amp88, look through all of the pages for the hotlap charts. It's pretty solidly 90% auto-clutchers on every page.

So the auto clutch is quicker and manual clutch with h shifter is slower?

If you really want to prove that auto-clutching is faster do some testing yourself, or get others to do it. Put some effort into it too, an hour with clutch and an hour without, see how much difference it actually makes.

I have done some testing and I think the difference between auto clutch + sequential and manual clutch plus h shifter is 2 or 3 tenths in a lap (with no misshifts or wrong slots) at AS2 with an XRT. That's a pretty simple track with few braking/shifting points. The gap is only going to grow on a longer/more complex track.

tmehlinger

13th July 2009, 20:00

I really do NOT give a damn about the result, why do people keep attacking me for something I never even suggested. All I want is to be able to race people who, like me, aim for realism. It's really not about the result, as I said several times throughout this thread.
A gamepad is NOT REALISTIC, it's as simple as that.

Seriously, if you don't even bother reading what I actually said, do not attack me.

Dude, joking... relax. Hugs and kisses, hope you're not too upset. Moving on....

I said that if manual clutching is your thing, then do it. The game is as real as you make it and it shouldn't matter what controller the other drivers are using. They are just pretend cars going really fast in imaginary wavy circles, and you're trying to go faster than they are. You're hung up on the difference in realism between a pedal set most people can't afford and a device that anyone can pick up for 20 bucks/euros/ when you're racing [i]fake cars on an imaginary track with children. If you're really hung up about realism, you need to get your priorities straight. As great as LFS is, there are a hundred things that could be more realistic about the simulation before we start controlling the real-world elements affecting the game.

Matrixi

13th July 2009, 20:47

If you're really hung up about realism, you need to get your priorities straight. As great as LFS is, there are a hundred things that could be more realistic about the simulation before we start controlling the real-world elements affecting the game.

Whattef..? Are you serious?

Aren't realistic real world controls the most basic of the basic starting points of simulator realism? Please tell me you are joking.

zeugnimod

13th July 2009, 20:58

What a "fun" thread. :D

-1 to the suggestion, agree completely with pik_d.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 20:59

Whattef..? Are you serious?

Aren't realistic real world controls the most basic of the basic starting points of simulator realism? Please tell me you are joking.
Games won't be real until I taste that bug I just got between my teeth!

But on a much more serious note, well.. problem is.. even the controllers we are using (Racing games, joysticks are as realistic as any joystick you'd see in a normal plane except.. it's made of plastic)
We are a long way off from getting a controller that has the control and feel as a real car. Not to mention it will take just as long to be able to code anything so it works.
AKA.. force feedback, it has come a long way, but there is so much to improve on.. and the main problem with racing games and no matter how badass a setup you have... no force feedback on the pedals.. and if you do.. it isn't realistic seeing no game even has any control over such a thing because they aren't being sold to the general public.

So.. really.. the most realistic thing about LFS is its physics, but even then they are quite flawed (no offense Scawen, but he knows how much work he has put in to the code, but in the end.. not everything is a mathematical equation..)

@amp88 why is weight penalty a bad idea? You said you wanted it to be fair.. you penalize those with advantages, you don't banish them..

Not Sure

13th July 2009, 21:05

amp88

13th July 2009, 21:06

@amp88 why is weight penalty a bad idea? You said you wanted it to be fair.. you penalize those with advantages, you don't banish them..

A weight penalty penalises everything (acceleration, braking, corner speeds). A more realistic penalty would be to make the time taken to shift when using auto clutch + sequential more realistic (more on a par with a manual clutch + h shifter) in those cars where it applied. However, then you'd have a debate on what the average time to shift should be and it the auto clutch + seq driver would not be able to misshift or wrong slot.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 21:13

True you could change the shift time.. but then that would technically make the shifter 'unrealistic'

HOWEVER.. you have something going there with that.

A long time ago back in the days of the RSC forum, there was a thread.. I don't remember who started it (could've been me for all I know)..
It isn't anything new to see the driver in the game shift the gears, GPL had it, Gran Turismo has it, Forza has it.

The arguement for that solution however was.. what if you are using an H gate shifter, then it would technically make it unrealistic because the game would be shifting alone.. OR.. have the game know if you're using an H gate (by having keys set for each gear would be the easiest solution), so it wouldn't have that delay.

Weight penalty, yes I agree with you, but LFS has always been about trying to get the right mix, the FXO, RB4, XRT leveling battle has been going on since S1, and even today they aren't perfectly even cars, not because of how they react, but as simple as it comes down to weight and horsepower, yes vehicle dynamics makes it much more complicated, but keeping the playing field is not easy to balance.

Another old arguement will probably be brought up after this.. well if you're going to force everyone to have the same equipment, then.. why not force everyone to use the same everything including setup to? Again.. Leagues already do this, and they don't bother with public races were you can just get on, have some fun, get off.

amp88

13th July 2009, 21:19

True you could change the shift time.. but then that would technically make the shifter 'unrealistic'

How is it unrealistic to alter the time taken to shift with auto clutch closer to the time taken to shift with manual clutch? It's unrealistic at the moment because there's disparity.

tmehlinger

13th July 2009, 21:22

Whattef..? Are you serious?

Aren't realistic real world controls the most basic of the basic starting points of simulator realism? Please tell me you are joking.

I'm absolutely serious. The critical parts of the simulation--tracks, cars, tire model, aerodynamic model, engine model, weather, damage, rules, whatever--all function independently of the input device. For an arbitrary individual (me, for instance), using a steering wheel makes the total simulation more "real" than using a keyboard or mouse or a gamepad... but it doesn't matter what you use as long as the software (the part that does 99% of the simulation) makes it look like a real car when it's given an input. Case in point, you can play GT4 with a G25 and it's still not half the simulation LFS is with a mouse.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 21:23

Well it depends on the car you look at in reference today I suppose, but I don't know any cars that have tiptronic (my car if it were an automatic even has tiptronic) but it shifts as fast as an automatic car normally shifts (then again.. that's because it is an automatic car, now I just sound like a dummy)

so really.. how fast does an automatic car shift compared to a manual car?
(in a real car situation, we can move on to LFS once this gets solved)

allll about progress.. anything can be refined.. well.. except maybe mothers' cooking!

tmehlinger

13th July 2009, 21:27

qft

I didn't think it was possible for more than one person in the world to care about that sort of crap, but apparently I was wrong.

Does it really bother you that people play with chase cam/auto clutch/mouse? Does it also bother you that most everyone uses a monitor instead of 3d goggles? Do you put on a helmet and start a huge box fan blowing in your face before you race?

I think you need give up LFS and save the money and buy a kart. LFS is never going be realistic enough for you.

morpha

13th July 2009, 21:27

(...)The critical parts of the simulation--tracks, cars, tire model, aerodynamic model, engine model, weather, damage, rules, whatever--all function independently of the input device.(...)

Mind you, the time used on improving keyboard and mouse support to the point where it is now could have been used for those critical parts instead if LFS was "hardcore" enough to just stick with the wheel. Not saying it would necessarily be better as it'd cost a lot of LFS's userbase, but keyboard and mouse support does affect the sim in more ways than you seem to realize, or are willing to admit.

tmehlinger

13th July 2009, 21:34

Mind you, the time used on improving keyboard and mouse support to the point where it is now could have been used for those critical parts instead if LFS was "hardcore" enough to just stick with the wheel. Not saying it would necessarily be better as it'd cost a lot of LFS's userbase, but keyboard and mouse support does affect the sim in more ways than you seem to realize, or are willing to admit.

Yes, it affects the sim by making it accessible to people who don't have or can't afford a wheel. When pik_d said "elitism", this is exactly what he was talking about.

You need to play iRacing. LFS isn't for you.

tmehlinger

13th July 2009, 21:46

How is it unrealistic to alter the time taken to shift with auto clutch closer to the time taken to shift with manual clutch? It's unrealistic at the moment because there's disparity.

This is the solution to the problem. Just take away the advantage of using auto clutch and everything is fine.

geeman1

13th July 2009, 22:02

Those who have gone and blasted away tons of money (even if they are poor!) in to a hardcore racing system/cockpit aren't allowed to race against other hardcore simmers for equal level racing because why exactly? I don't get it. It would be a minority within a minority anyway, arcade racers (engage flamewar) wouldn't even notice the difference in the amount of racers in the servers they are at.Why can't these hardcore simmers just have race between themselves and agree not to use any unrealistic options? Or how about one of them makes an Insim plugin that checks if a user has auto-clutch on (or some other option) and boots them off the server if they do?If anything, allowing forced HC settings would increase the amount of online racers, such as myself.That must be the most overused line ever in the improvement suggestions area. Literally every other suggestion says that it would increase the amount of online racers...

amp88

13th July 2009, 22:09

Why can't these hardcore simmers just have race between themselves and agree not to use any unrealistic options? Or how about one of them makes an Insim plugin that checks if a user has auto-clutch on (or some other option) and boots them off the server if they do?

There has already been at least one InSim application that does exactly this (determines if a user has auto clutch on and won't let them race if they do), but the complication of writing the InSim application and ensuring it is running is a lot more difficult than simply typing "/forcemanualclutch yes" into LFS or setting it in the server's config file.

tmehlinger

13th July 2009, 22:17

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 22:27

Well then if you say there is already an instance that .. works.. then why are we discussing this anymore?

I bet if someone asked the programmer would be willing to hand out or at least give tips as to how he coded something like that....

@morpha, if Scawen wanted something to be perfectly real.. and didn't care about US.. the BUYERS.. then he wouldn't be eating dinner tonight. .. just saying, LFS is his income

Just because LFS is meant to be 100% real means he can drop the entire purpose of a business being run here off the board.
A lot of people forget that part, LFS.. sure its a game trying to mimic reality, but it's also a business, and not a good business seeing how few people in this world want to play something.. they can do if they went outside and had a lot of money to throw away.

Matrixi

13th July 2009, 22:30

We are a long way off from getting a controller that has the control and feel as a real car.
Untrue. You sure you're living in 2009 mate? Even something cheap like G25 already feels pretty darn close to how a real car feels. And after driving with Force Dynamics, it was the last nail in the coffin for my enthusiasm for absolute, total no-compromises attempt at realism for car simulation.

Case in point, you can play GT4 with a G25 and it's still not half the simulation LFS is with a mouse.
It's rather complicated, you can FEEL the car more even in GT4 with a G25 with your hands than you can feel a car in LFS with a mouse. GT4 physics are utter shit anyway, but I'd rather drive GT5P with a G25 than LFS with a mouse.

Why can't these hardcore simmers just have race between themselves and agree not to use any unrealistic options? Or how about one of them makes an Insim plugin that checks if a user has auto-clutch on (or some other option) and boots them off the server if they do?
I've made a server like that before, it had 2 drivers visit it in one week. We need big and well known reputable hosts to do these limitations for the servers to gather any more than one or two racers. Making a gentlemans agreement that everyone will use clutch and h-pat isn't going to work in public servers with the modern internet generation. Even if you make an insim script to force players to use clutch and shifter, they can just pit out/start race with those settings enabled and then quickly change back to auto clutch and whatnot. That system won't work, it needs to be hardcoded.

That must be the most overused line ever in the improvement suggestions area. Literally every other suggestion says that it would increase the amount of online racers...
And being often used argument makes it any less true becaaaause .. ?

amp88

13th July 2009, 22:31

There has already been at least one InSim application that does exactly this (determines if a user has auto clutch on and won't let them race if they do), but the complication of writing the InSim application and ensuring it is running is a lot more difficult than simply typing "/forcemanualclutch yes" into LFS or setting it in the server's config file.

Well then if you say there is already an instance that .. works.. then why are we discussing this anymore?

I know how to write such an application. I could knock one up in half an hour or so. The problem is then I have to make sure that application is running on my server, it's another piece of software that can go wrong. Putting it into LFS makes it much easier for a wider range of people to use.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 22:33

I know how to write such an application. I could knock one up in half an hour or so. The problem is then I have to make sure that application is running on my server, it's another piece of software that can go wrong. Putting it into LFS makes it much easier for a wider range of people to use.
I know, but you see what I'm getting at though right? If it ain't broke.. don't fix it.

But if you say it's that easy to code and you've seen it once.. apparently not many people want it then because I haven't ever come across it.. just saying, if it was a big enough deal then sure I might cross it once or twice, but I didn't even know anyone had done this.

@matrixi, I don't have a G25, but I can gaurantee it doesn't feel anything like a real car would feel in the same situation.
No pedal feedback, no gearbox feedback, and extremely limited wheel feedback.. not looking so good if you think it's almost as real as a car..

amp88

13th July 2009, 22:37

I know, but you see what I'm getting at though right? If it ain't broke.. don't fix it.

Obviously I do think it is broken...

But if you say it's that easy to code and you've seen it once.. apparently not many people want it then because I haven't ever come across it.. just saying, if it was a big enough deal then sure I might cross it once or twice, but I didn't even know anyone had done this.

The number of people who can either program or can afford to pay someone to program for them is pretty small. I suppose there's potential for asking for something like this to be included in one of the free, popular InSim apps (Airio and LFSLapper) though.

pik_d

13th July 2009, 22:39

Mind you, the time used on improving keyboard and mouse support to the point where it is now could have been used for those critical parts instead if LFS was "hardcore" enough to just stick with the wheel. Not saying it would necessarily be better as it'd cost a lot of LFS's userbase, but keyboard and mouse support does affect the sim in more ways than you seem to realize, or are willing to admit.
So what about the time spent on a feature that you and Matrixi want? It seems that a lot of people are agreeing with me, maybe the time you want spent on this feature should go into something more important for LFS overall. :razz:

Matrixi

13th July 2009, 22:42

@matrixi, I don't have a G25, but I can gaurantee it doesn't feel anything like a real car would feel in the same situation.
No pedal feedback, no gearbox feedback, and extremely limited wheel feedback.. not looking so good if you think it's almost as real as a car..
Well, obviously it lacks such things. I don't think even Frex has all of those features nailed yet. Consumer products are still consumer products, and I think G25 for its price gives you the closest feeling to a real car (steering) feedback that Average Joe could ask for. What else better is there for under 1000 euros? I don't agree about extremely limited wheel feedback either, if we were talking about a DFP or a Momo, I would agree completely.

Odd thread.

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 22:43

@amp
yes, and the people that can afford a 3 pedal set is even smaller than that!

I mean I guess I'm getting to the point that an option .. depending on how long it would take to code in comparison to insim .. would make sense.. but do you really think anyone will actually USE it a year from now?

Like I was saying earlier about force cockpit, sure it was a fad and a lot of public servers were running it.. but now.. only a few Leagues use it if any leagues at all, everyone pretty much came to the decision why force someone to do something.. For some people they really didn't care because they never changed their view because they have three monitors, but how many people here play LFS on a laptop? Chances are they have a 15" I would shoot myself with a laptop that small, I still consider my 17" rough..
Forcing cockpit on everyone may be fine for some, but that's like putting a patch on one eye and forcing them to look down a toilet roll tube to have any clue as to what is going on.

In all reality.. force cockpit isn't fair technically speaking..

@matrixi, that is what i've been saying lol.. it isn't affordable, not to mention it hasn't even been made yet, frex.. seriously? lets not get into that discussion, there are maybe 5 people in this entire forum that wouldn't mind spending that much money for a cage setup.. that's 5 people.. that is like paying attention to one star in the night sky by comparison..
I'm just saying.. you're the one trying to show how realistic it is.. but it isn't and you said so yourself, i'm not trying to fight, just trying to get you to understand.. the technology just .. isn't here yet. And it doesn't look like it will be here anytime to soon.

morpha

13th July 2009, 22:43

So what about the time spent on a feature that you and Matrixi want? It seems that a lot of people are agreeing with me, maybe the time you want spent on this feature should go into something more important for LFS overall. :razz:

Wouldn't be necessary if no time at all had been spent on implementing the unrealistic auto clutch feature in the first place :thumb:
€: Please just leave it at that, we went way off topic already...

NightShift

13th July 2009, 22:45

Please 'Nuse everybody has got your position by this time, some will agree with you, some will not, but don't just drown this thread in your posts.

Someone might be interested in other people's opinions as well :tilt:

pik_d

13th July 2009, 22:50

So the auto clutch is quicker and manual clutch with h shifter is slower?
No, there's a pretty even distribution of everything, though obviously many more auto clutchers. Even distributions don't prove that anything is faster than the other options, in fact it signifies that there's little to no difference.

I have done some testing and I think the difference between auto clutch + sequential and manual clutch plus h shifter is 2 or 3 tenths in a lap (with no misshifts or wrong slots) at AS2 with an XRT. That's a pretty simple track with few braking/shifting points. The gap is only going to grow on a longer/more complex track.
2 tenths on AS2 is about .277...%. How many laps did you do? I trust your integrity but I'd like to know the details of the test.

Wouldn't be necessary if no time at all had been spent on implementing the unrealistic auto clutch feature in the first place
€: Please just leave it at that, we went way off topic already...
Yes, because there wouldn't be anyone playing the game, so Scawen wouldn't have any reason to continue developing it.

morpha

13th July 2009, 22:54

Yes, because there wouldn't be anyone playing the game, so Scawen wouldn't have any reason to continue developing it.

So what you are saying is the majority of LFS users uses auto clutch? If so I agree, he shouldn't continue.

pik_d

13th July 2009, 22:56

So what you are saying is the majority of LFS users uses auto clutch? If so I agree, he shouldn't continue.
So then this feature shouldn't be included? That would be continuing after all.

amp88

13th July 2009, 23:04

2 tenths on AS2 is about .277...%. How many laps did you do? I trust your integrity but I'd like to know the details of the test.

I can't remember exactly, this was back near the time I got the G25 (early January 2008). It would be interesting to get a really good tintop driver who had a G25 (or other wheel with clutch) and get them to do some laps with auto clutch + seq then manual clutch + shifter and compare the times. I'll create a wee thread in General Discussion and see if there's any interest.

morpha

13th July 2009, 23:07

So then this feature shouldn't be included? That would be continuing after all.

No new features at all, LFS should be sold to EA as is. They'd probably sell it as Need for Speed: Trackday and Scawen, Eric and Victor should start over again.
Can we stop this ridiculous off-topic trip now?

Matrixi

13th July 2009, 23:23

I'm just saying.. you're the one trying to show how realistic it is.. but it isn't and you said so yourself, i'm not trying to fight, just trying to get you to understand.. the technology just .. isn't here yet. And it doesn't look like it will be here anytime to soon.
Uhh, I haven't said that G25 wouldn't be realistic, it only lacks feedback in the mostly irrelevant parts. Sure it would be nice to have a brake pedal that kicks back when ABS goes on, and a shifter that would simulate worn out syncros, but those are all irrelevant things compared to the important part: steering.

The thing is, you're trying to make secondary and tertiary feedback devices (pedals/gearbox) to be more important than they actually are. The steering wheel is the important bit, and that bit is already good with modern consumer technology (G25/Frex/911 wheel). You have driven with a G25 in LFS though, I presume?

I've been in to hardcore sim equipment ever since I started driving racing games, I still have a picture (http://nismo.1g.fi/temp/2003clutch.jpg) of how my DIY clutch setup looked in 2003 (check the EXIF). The cost of that clutch pedal? Less than 15 euros. It was from a broken TM 360 Modena, hotglued next to my MSFF pedals. I think I was also one of the first Act-Labs customers who imported their h-pattern shifter to Finland. That is why I still am, and always will be stuck in my stubborn opinions of anti-arcade controllers and camera views. Been doing this for too long to change. :)

XCNuse

13th July 2009, 23:28

that is one ghetto rigged clutch!

That's a good idea though, what about the thrustmaster wheel though, was that just set off to the side?

I just don't like my setup now being in college and not having a desktop anymore where it wouldn't move, but the G25 is a nice little package, 2 wheels, 2 pedal sets, and the ACT Labs H shifter.. is a lot of junk!

geeman1

14th July 2009, 08:54

I've made a server like that before, it had 2 drivers visit it in one week. We need big and well known reputable hosts to do these limitations for the servers to gather any more than one or two racers.But would big and well known servers implement these limitations? If they did wouldn't it piss off a bunch of people who couldn't play anymore? Wouldn't those pissed off people then be tempted to use macros to "hack" their way in? Or would those server's userbase reduce to 2 drivers per week? Which would in turn make this whole thing pointless.

Matrixi

14th July 2009, 09:12

The hc servers would need to be alongside the usual servers, of course. That's how the TO drift servers ran. Public and HC, the latter forced a steering wheel to be used whereas public didn't have such requirements. And as I said before, these limitations must be hardcoded to prevent cheaters/hackers getting in.

geeman1

14th July 2009, 09:18

And as I said before, these limitations must be hardcoded to prevent cheaters/hackers getting in.It's rather impossible to reliably to check if user is using an actual physical clutch pedal or a macro. From LFS' point of view pressing a clutch pedal and macro using the clutch looks exactly the same. It doesn't matter if it's hardcoded in to LFS or if it's a Insim app.

tristancliffe

14th July 2009, 09:27

You're not one of these people that think you can feel anything through the brake pedal are you Nuse (not counting warped discs or ABS pulsing obviously)?

Glenn67

14th July 2009, 09:40

You're not one of these people that think you can feel anything through the brake pedal are you Nuse (not counting warped discs or ABS pulsing obviously)?

You haven't driven much on gravel have you? :p :razz:

morpha

14th July 2009, 10:03

You haven't driven much on gravel have you? :p :razz:

Mind telling us what the surface has to do with it? (as Tristan said: not counting warped discs or ABS pulsing obviously)
Of course FFB pedals would be nice, but ABS and warped discs are the only factors that require dynamic forces. Boiled fluid would simply reduce the brake pedal's resistance, think we don't really need that, especially since it can't happen in LFS yet.

tristancliffe

14th July 2009, 10:04

Matrixi

14th July 2009, 11:32

It's rather impossible to reliably to check if user is using an actual physical clutch pedal or a macro. From LFS' point of view pressing a clutch pedal and macro using the clutch looks exactly the same. It doesn't matter if it's hardcoded in to LFS or if it's a Insim app.

It can be forced fairly easily by hardcoding. Even LFSLapper could do it, if it was updated a bit. For example, now it only checks the controller requirements when you pit out or start a race, if it checked those requirements at every split or even at every lap, it would make it quite bothersome for cheaters to bypass without macros. Not to mention if it was all hardcoded, Scawen could make the hooks for the controller checks much more intelligent, preventing macro usage. I still have a bit faith in the LFS community that we wouldn't actually see THAT many people armed with macros going in to a HC server to win easy races.

To end this discussion on my part, I shall quote one of the Forza developers talking about the forced multiplayer difficulty options (no auto gears, etc):

"If you don't like it, then don't join!"

Let the HC guys drive how they want to, it takes nothing away from the majority of racers who are happy with their auto-clutches. In this day and age anyone who just wants a clutch can build one from cheap secondary wheels pedals if they seriously find a G25 too expensive. I think some people just aren't willing to take their sim racing in to the next level of realism, and want everyone to be stuck in their majority group so they might have more handicap advantage than the person they are racing against.

Glenn67

14th July 2009, 12:41

I have a bit (some of it not entirely on purpose :p)... But I still don't get feedback from the brakes - you can't feel when they lock or when they bite from the pedal; that sense comes from the accelerations acting on your body.

Unless I've missed the joke :shy:

The joke was/is I believe in the dim dark past I have made such claims as feeling certain feedback through the brake pedeal :p but that most probably stems from the fact that the vast amount of driving experience I've had is in old bombs which inevetably don't have discs in what I'd call good condition :razz: so as you rightly point out my experience of feedback through the brake pedal is very likely an exception rather than a rule :) having said that though I would have thought sloted or drilled discs might give similar feedback to those badly abused discs of mine :x The reference to gravel is simply were I feel that sensation the most - I've grown up on gravel roads though so maybe it's just some wiered wiring going on in my brain that is not normal and is extrapolating the overall sensory input I have on gravel roads leading me to believe I have feeling in the brake pedal :shrug: :scratchch :razz:

tristancliffe

14th July 2009, 12:48

It's very VERY easy to think you do, because it's easy even for new drivers to be able to tell when they are near the point of locking, when the brakes are just about to bite etc. But that's just the human brain being quite clever, and linking the forces of retardation coming through the seat with the pressure you're applying to the pedal. Unless you actually think about it (something most people aren't dull enough to bother doing, unlike me :p) you would come to the conclusion you can feel stuff through the pedal.

Drillings and slots don't cause the pad to move, it just goes over them and lets gas/dust out. As such there is no feedback through the pedal. Scored discs (where the scoring is radial) also don't make any difference (to pedal feedback or in 99% of cases braking efficiency). But a warped or cracked disc could as the raised areas will push the pads back, forcing fluid backwards through the system. But a distorted disc might not do so, as one pad is pushed back, the excess fluid on that side is used up moving the other pad out again - no net fluid movement. This won't apply to 'girling style' calipers where only one side has fluid of course.

Put simply, it's very easy (and hence I don't mock people for it ;)) to think brakes give feedback through the pedal. But unless something is quite badly wrong then they don't.

Glenn67

14th July 2009, 13:07

.

So I have a weired brain :tilt: I take that as a compliment even though many others have tried to use that as slander against me as well :D

What you say does make sense and I am constantly amazed at our brains capacity to do things super computers will still most likely take life times to perfect :smileypul the down side of the human brain though is as strong as it is that strength often becomes a weakness...

XCNuse

14th July 2009, 15:07

You're not one of these people that think you can feel anything through the brake pedal are you Nuse (not counting warped discs or ABS pulsing obviously)?
:razz:

No I am how you are, people say you can feel the brakes, i know I don't!
But I think it's safe to say if you hit a bump hard enough while braking in LFS.. I think you would get feedback when the car hits the ground ... I think..? I don't know lol

I guess it isn't really feedback.

Maybe someone just needs to figure out the right kind of piston pressure etc, every pedal set I've touched is all floppy and feels like crap!
I want a clutch that feels like a clutch, I want to be able to set the grip point of that clutch in LFS, my clutch pedal feels like my gas pedal, and my brake pedal feels like my car's real clutch pedal, it's all mixed around! :x

I think I know what has happened with this whole you can feel brakes.. I think it got handed down from our parents who had to use their own pressure to apply the brakes.. if that's the case sure lol, but... I haven't been in a situation yet I had to use my own force to brake, have in my driveway and it's hella hard! But today, no I don't feel much, I do feel my friend's warped disc though and that's.. besides insanely dangerous if sucks!

I suppose what it really comes down to is.. LFS is to linear feeling, in my car and every car I know, there are specific points in the throttle, brake, and clutch that have a different effect than they did right before, ei: with a gas pedal, there are certain punch points where it feels like you just floored your car but.. you didn't.. anyone know what I mean?
Same with the engines in LFS, the power is to linear I believe

geeman1

14th July 2009, 15:14

It can be forced fairly easily by hardcoding. Even LFSLapper could do it, if it was updated a bit. For example, now it only checks the controller requirements when you pit out or start a race, if it checked those requirements at every split or even at every lap, it would make it quite bothersome for cheaters to bypass without macros. Not to mention if it was all hardcoded, Scawen could make the hooks for the controller checks much more intelligent, preventing macro usage.
No, it really is quite impossible to detect macros from inside LFS. Only way it could be done is by checking what background programs the user is running while playing, but the problem with that is that there are tons of macro programs out there. Most people don't like programs sniffing their PC either. Besides I am sure Scawen has made Insim give out as much info about users controller settings as LFS internally sees, so that people can make these kind of plugins if they so want. This seems to be a simple thing to do too. Maybe Insim doesn't update the controller settings on every split or lap, that is something you should maybe request if it doesn't.
I still have a bit faith in the LFS community that we wouldn't actually see THAT many people armed with macros going in to a HC server to win easy races.
To end this discussion on my part, I shall quote one of the Forza developers talking about the forced multiplayer difficulty options (no auto gears, etc):
"If you don't like it, then don't join!"
Let the HC guys drive how they want to, it takes nothing away from the majority of racers who are happy with their auto-clutches.
What I am trying to say is that:

1. If a major server would turn 'HC', it would take a lot away from people who can't race without an auto-clutch. Which is why it would be tempting to use macros.
2. If a minor server would go 'HC', it would still be a minor server. That wouldn't take away nothing from majority of people, but it wouldn't make that server very popular either. There would only be few players playing and all those 'HC' racers would still not be happy because the lack of players.
3. It is already possible to do this with Insim and it would probably be equally effective than having it as an internal part of LFS.

PS. In Forzas case things are very different. Everyone can play in the HC mode in Forza, because it works with the normal controller everyone has.

hp999

14th July 2009, 15:21

Then Logitech MoMo owners(like me) woun't have even a chance to race/cruise at most of the servers.

XCNuse

14th July 2009, 15:36

Then Logitech MoMo owners(like me) woun't have even a chance to race/cruise at most of the servers.
Exactly..

So what you land up with is a bunch of people that already have a wheel.. but now they have to go out and either buy a second wheel to use the pedals, make your own pedal and figure that all out, or buy a pedal set, or buy a new wheel that has a clutch... That can range anywhere from the do it yourself of probably $20 to over $200 depending on the option

I really can't think of to many people that have the time/patience to do it themselves, or see any reason to go out and buy a second wheel just for a pedal set.. just to be able to race..

tristancliffe

14th July 2009, 15:38

There is no actual feedback, as such, from a clutch pedal, although the spring rate (for want of a better term) is variable over the travel as you move the release bearing, as the preload is taken off the driven plate, and as it moves the clutch fingers. This could be 'simulated' by multiple springs in the clutch system, and requires little more than that. It certainly does need a motor or active feedback.

The brakes don't really either. If you hit a big bump then the brake pressure won't vary, so it's no felt from the pedal. But you feel the bump through the seat and the pedals and the wheel as the whole car moves - so that requires a motion platform of some kind to simulate. But brakes are pressure sensitive, so to get an authentic pedal you need a small hydraulic system ending in a load cell. Just having the pedal press the load cell directly would be close enough though I'd have thought, with a spring to simulate the initial fluid movement stage.

Throttles are just acting against springs (unless your car has one of those traction control pedal vibrators), and as such can be simulated passively using springs in the pedal box.

I don't believe there is any need for force feedback pedals. Just a few more springs and levers, plus a load cell. And they all need to be stronger springs - my ECCI pedals are set to their hardest levels and are only just strong enough to feel like real pedals with shoes on. With the logitech pedals I have to use them bear footed to get any feel as they're so soft (the pedals, not my feet).

Glenn67

14th July 2009, 15:38

Then Logitech MoMo owners(like me) woun't have even a chance to race/cruise at most of the servers.

Yes you would, the vast majority of drivers on LFS still would not have three pedal set ups so it is extremely unlikely that more than a mere handful of server operators would even consider forced clutch let alone implement it :shrug:

@ Tristian I agree with your analysis of pedals 100% and that is pretty much my long term plane for my sim rig :)

tristancliffe

14th July 2009, 15:41

Exactly. Adding the option would add more choice for everyone, not restrict everyone. And more choice at this stage is a good thing. LFS can then cater for the ex-arcade racer looking for more realistic thrills, the casual gamer who is not interested in motorsport (cruisers :p) all the way up to the established simmer looking for the ultimate realism experience, and everything in between.

TFalke55

14th July 2009, 16:28

... to be serious, extinguishing the auto-clutch would make me leave LFS cause I couldn't race anylonger... I only have a break-throttle pedal set and I'm shifting via a sequential shifter... I don't have the money buying me more equipment. Also I know many people playing LFS with keyboard. And I know many people who don't have a clutch pedal either (using a Logitech Momo for example)... actually it would make many people leave LFS to be serious if the auto-clutch would be banned.

Even my car has got an auto-clutch but no automatic gearbox ;)

morpha

14th July 2009, 16:30

Even my car has got an auto-clutch but no automatic gearbox ;)

What car would that be?

tristancliffe

14th July 2009, 16:30

Maybe I haven't read the thread properly, but this isn't about banning autoclutch, but adding an option (that wouldn't be used anywhere near some of the time) to have manual clutches only on a server.

Nobody is disadvantaged by it, nobody has to stop. It's exactly the same as wanting to join a server and finding that it's set on a track you don't want to race - you find another server and have fun there instead.

TFalke55

14th July 2009, 16:31

a smart coupé from 1999... 6 gears and sequential shifter with auto clutch... I need to shift but I don't have a clutch pedal

morpha

14th July 2009, 16:47

a smart coupé from 1999... 6 gears and sequential shifter with auto clutch... I need to shift but I don't have a clutch pedal

Okay, not an automatic but not a manual gearbox either. Road cars in LFS are all manuals, proper sequentials in LFS don't need auto clutch. Auto clutch is solely for shifting manuals like sequentials, clutchless shifting is possible without auto clutch (but only if you match revs, there are no synchros).

NightShift

14th July 2009, 16:59

Nobody is disadvantaged by it, nobody has to stop. It's exactly the same as wanting to join a server and finding that it's set on a track you don't want to race - you find another server and have fun there instead.

Sounds like plain common sense to me :thumb:

pik_d

14th July 2009, 18:25

I still have a bit faith in the LFS community that we wouldn't actually see THAT many people armed with macros going in to a HC server to win easy races.
Easy wins? Racing against people I know to use clutches is not an easy win for me. It's just as hard for me to maneuver my car past someone, just as hard for me to hit the apexes, just as hard for me to not lock up the brakes. You're deluded if you really think we'd have an easy win just because we have a different kind of clutch.

Exactly. Adding the option would add more choice for everyone, not restrict everyone.
Out of curiosity how does this add more choice for the auto-clutchers?

morpha

14th July 2009, 18:33

Easy wins? Racing against people I know to use clutches is not an easy win for me. It's just as hard for me to maneuver my car past someone, just as hard for me to hit the apexes, just as hard for me to not lock up the brakes. You're deluded if you really think we'd have an easy win just because we have a different kind of clutch.

Pretty sure he was talking about macro users, who can shift in between 10 and 60ms by having a clutch button (= no delay, which auto clutch has) and using a single button for clutch-shift-clutch.

pik_d

14th July 2009, 18:41

Pretty sure he was talking about macro users, who can shift in between 10 and 60ms by having a clutch button (= no delay, which auto clutch has) and using a single button for clutch-shift-clutch.
Oh, I see what you mean then. I've got no idea how much that helps lap times so I guess I wont comment on that now that I know what he really means.

gxgung

14th July 2009, 20:54

Some of the dudes here are really dumb, arguing about nothing, because anyway they will have cars with sequential gear box and they don't need a clutch for thoes ... so if there would be a GTR race, only the FZR racers would be forced to use a clutch.
I bet that they never even thought about dissabling that "Auto-Clutch", not even once ... but they keep talking about it, though ... This is a request for all the scared no-clutch players: Dissable the option and try to drive a car with a sequential gear box. You'll notice that everything is the same.
The "No Auto-Clutch" option doesn't have as much DPS (Damager per seccond) as it seems. It would just give the players a chance to play with who they want to play, not all together like a bunch of drunk football players.

NotAnIllusion

14th July 2009, 21:00

With mouse and keyboard, driving the FZR I have two choices
- auto-clutch and able to blip
- manual (aka button) clutch and not able to blip

Guess which is significantly faster..

If you're going to suggest it, it would be more useful together with forced "wheel". The problem with that is that it guarantees diddlysquat as any controller which doesn't ID as keyboard or mouse is a "wheel". I remember asking one time on a demo server "which wheel you using?" reply? "Oh I'm using a console controller". Then there's also the issue of virtual devices. If it's possible to fake CD and DVD drives with pure software, it probably won't be impossible to throw a known "wheel" device ID at the DX API and you're back to square one. Obviously anyone doing that would be a minority, but it's not quite as simple as "no auto-clutch, gg." imo.

tristancliffe

14th July 2009, 23:03

Out of curiosity how does this add more choice for the auto-clutchers?

It adds more choice as a whole, not necessarily to each individual. Lets pretend that Windows only allowed Internet Explorer to be used from now on. The choice is restricted. 90% of people won't care or realise. But by allowing you to get Firefox or Opera or Chrome you add choice to those that want it.

Same with a forceaxisclutch mode - those that don't want/can't afford/don't have a clutch pedal carry on as normal. Those that do can choose. Those that currently use autoclutch might be swayed to get a third pedal. Those that have stopped playing (see an earlier post by someone) because the realism isn't copied universally might come back.

To autoclutchers the world of LFS won't change. There will be a vast amount of servers, players, leagues and hardware suited to your wants.

And I think that LFS has realism as one of its core values - hence an option hardcore mode (or layer) would only widen the appeal, not restrict it.

If you can't see that by now (not just from this post, but the whole thread) then I think you'll never see it from that viewpoint.

pik_d

14th July 2009, 23:21

Please tell me you're joking, or trolling.

First you directly contradict yourself about "more choice for everyone", then you somehow come to the conclusion that a niche option for a niche game, that is specifically designed to exclude the majority of the players from the infected servers, somehow widens appeal. I know you like arguing but this is honestly taking "hm well how can I warp things to prove this guy wrong" to the extreme.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think that realism as a core value is more or less "hardcore realism with very little compromise*, but for everyone". When I say everyone I mean not only people from different countries (lots of translated languages), but people of different incomes. The developer chose to add an option to stabalize keyboards, that should be pretty telling of their goals. They've also kept the system requirements down, you don't need a hardcore computer to play this hardcore game.

* there are options such as brake assist, race line and maybe some other assists. As much as anyone wants it to be, this is not a no-compromise game. You can play it as one of course, but you don't have to.

tristancliffe

14th July 2009, 23:28

No, I thought I was being very open, honest and nice about it, without even a hint of wanting an argument (for once!).

Maybe you don't use the phrase more choice for everyone much in the US, but in the UK it's a fairly well understood phrase. A 'hardcore mode' option adds choice, not restricts it. You can't add options and say that restricts choice.

Lets say there are 1000 players. 10 of them don't play much because they don't like the idea of racing people who are using a mouse, or a button clutch or autoclutch. They want to race people doing the work themselves in much the same way they are. So we can either have 990 players in LFS all happy with their unrealistic setups (and there is nothing wrong with that at all. I'm not looking down on those not fortunate enough or interested in three pedal setups), or we can have 1000 players all of which are happy.

this is not a no-compromise game. You can play it as one of course, but you don't have to.

Exactly! And this option would only further that ethos.

h3adbang3r

15th July 2009, 00:00

If you are so bent on realism and that everyone on the planet can afford a $300 wheel, why not buy a real car and race it on a real track with other real cars?

pik_d

15th July 2009, 00:23

Maybe you don't use the phrase more choice for everyone much in the US, but in the UK it's a fairly well understood phrase. A 'hardcore mode' option adds choice, not restricts it. You can't add options and say that restricts choice.
"More choice for the hardcore 3 pedal/h-shifter/manual clutch, less choice (by merit of being excluded from an unknown quantity of servers) for everyone else".

How does this equate to "More choice for everyone"? If "more choice for everyone" means something in the UK other than the sum total of its parts, please explain. To me it means that everyone, that is every single person, has somehow been given more choices. Hopefully this is just a colloquial misunderstanding.

Glenn67

15th July 2009, 01:19

If you are so bent on realism and that everyone on the planet can afford a $300 wheel, why not buy a real car and race it on a real track with other real cars?

Um Tristan does that already along with many others on this forum!

For me though I am a part owner of business which is not just within normal business hours and is growing and expanding rapidly, then I also develop properties when I'm not running our business which uses up all remaining funds and spare time I might have (I do the majority of the work myself :p). So when I do play a game, I take it serious because for me I get fun out of treating it like real as I don't really have the opportunity to pursue racing in my day to day life (as that would take up too much time and cost a lot more than a sim rig, computer and some software, this time and money I choose to spend on developing houses to prepare for retirement). That may change in the future but it's not what I can or want to do now. I can though spend a small amount of money (to me) on a racing rig and choose to treat sims in a perhaps more serious manner which doesn't mean that only 'sucessful' (I treat that term very lightly becuase finacial sucess means nothing without other more important things being present in ones family and life also) people can do what I do, I know numerous people (some unemployed, some on disability pensions and others that work in a more normal way. Some single, some married with kids and guess what they all can and many do have similar setups to my own it comes down to the choices they have made).

I already spend a lot of my 'LFS time' on a wheel only server, but this doesn't mean I don't spend any time on other servers, I do. But I like the choice! And racing against all wheel users or all clutch users is different I know because I've tried it, which isn't to say I don't enjoy racing against people that don't use wheels, it's just different and another enjoyable choice that LFS offers. In much the same way as LFS offers drift servers, cruise servers, demo derby servers, cops an robbers servers, road cars, to f1, rallycross, autocross, oval to road courses, etc. To me all those choices don't offer much choice to me as I personally don't enjoy many of those choices or have any interest at all in them. (i.e. cruise, drifting, oval, open wheelers, etc) my preference is for road cars, so I choose to spend all my time on race servers mostly in road cars, I don't begrudge the rest of the users that choose to spend the bulk of there time on drift servers, oval racing, driving the open wheelers, etc I infact have great respect for many of them - especially the ones that are commited and are good at what they do.

There was a time I would have argued against all that choice though thinking it fragments the community (i.e. like when we went from S1 to S2) but times have changed, I know there are many that have moved on from LFS some because they felt all the added features in LFS took away from the pure racing that was around in S1 days to others that have lost interest and moved on because they find LFS isn't hard core enough for there taste. I now believe that the more choice LFS has the more people will remain and perhaps many return to enjoy it in the future.

I personally have no issue even with server options that would allow S1H style racing conditions through to ultra hard core options. I would choose to race on S1H style servers sometimes and I would choose to race on ultra hard core servers sometimes but I'd probably still end up racing mostly on wheel only servers. The thing is I'd enjoy each of the different options in different ways and in varying amounts.

I guess some people welcome choice while others will fear it :shrug:

pik_d

15th July 2009, 01:52

The difference is that with the auto-clutch thing that is something physical, outside of the software. Some people don't really have a choice (please make the distinction between technically having a choice, and realistically having it) in what input device they use.

Drifting, cruising, racing, demolition derby, these are all things that every single person who has LFS can do. Drive with a clutch? Not so much. This is the distinction here. If you say "Server CruiseXYZ is a cruise only server" then people have the choice to stay out of it if they only want to race. If you say "Server PopularLeagueXYZ is now clutch only" then well... some people will carry on and some people wont.

It's not choice that I'm personally against here. If you don't want me on your server because I use some specific input device, fine, it's your server and I shouldn't try to force my way in. What I disagree with is the easy to use option that could spawn such things as: "oh hey clutch only that sounds good, even though I never really cared about it before". I guess you could say I fear being left out when there's no reason for that to happen in the first place.

The funny thing is that I tend to stick to open wheel races where clutch only matters for the first half second of the race anyway. Imagine if someone decided to make an open wheel server clutch only. :razz:

Also, Matrixi said he had an Insim app setup so only clutch users could race, and that there were only two visitors in a week. No big league is going to have this kind of option because so many people use auto-clutch. It would be suicide for the league. Given how little use it would even get (as someone arguing FOR IT pointed out) I would say this option isn't even worth it.

Glenn67

15th July 2009, 03:01

But following your logic to the extreme (as you are following our logic to the extreme) would mean that none of us should have LFS at all beacuse there are many individuals in the world that can not afford a good enough PC to run LFS properly or internet connection to allow low ping racing let alone a wheel. So it's not fair to them that we can :shrug: so therefore we should rally and get Scawen to dumb down LFS so it will run on even the slowest PC's so all who want to race can no matter what there circustance.

If the out cry was because a certain segment of the community was demanding that a change be made that would exclude even a small segment from using LFS at all that would be different, but when your just talking of an option in which a small but loyal portion of the LFS community would get some enjoyment out of without excluding anyone else from enjoying LFS in the way they currently do I just don't get it.

pik_d

15th July 2009, 03:21

Even if you refuse to agree with most of my points, what about the last one? What about the fact that this option, used by someone who wants it, is destined to be a failure? You have the ability to do this via Insim (well Matrixi does), why have Scawen invest time in something that would almost certainly be a flop?

Some of the people supporting this idea seem like some pretty close minded people, some even dispising those of us who don't use the One True Setup™. Though the one who despises us asked to have a server side option to force 900° even though the LFS road cars use 720°. :D Some of these guys don't have any idea what they're talking about.

logitekg25

15th July 2009, 03:29

yay my comp. lets me use this thread again! :D

Glenn67

15th July 2009, 03:51

Even if you refuse to agree with most of my points, what about the last one?

Ah but I do understand your points and even agree with several of them in different aspects ;) I just still have a differing opinion about the possible end outcomes (and yes it is only an opinion) I also agree with your last point which if you read closely my previous posts in this thread you may be able to acertain that I'd concede this point - doesn't stop me from wanting to discuss it though :razz:

amp88

15th July 2009, 03:53

Even if you refuse to agree with most of my points, what about the last one? What about the fact that this option, used by someone who wants it, is destined to be a failure? You have the ability to do this via Insim (well Matrixi does), why have Scawen invest time in something that would almost certainly be a flop?

Why not let the community decide if it would be a flop or not? The time it would take to code it would be pretty minimal (few hours at most) and it would provide server owners with another option.

lEl E Talon

15th July 2009, 04:15

ROFL at morpha! you big bad simmer you. i was always wondering when i would come accross a true stand out douche on a forum, and i found you!

back on topic, what are you complaining about? if you want to use your clutch just use it? serously we auto-clutch users really don't mind if you use your clutch. we hereby give permission for you to use your clutch! great now we don't need the option to dissable 90% of user accounts.
it's still a game morpha. if it were available in shops, which type of shop do you think you would find it? :really: which type of magazine would do a review of it? :D

pik_d

15th July 2009, 04:21

Why not let the community decide if it would be a flop or not? The time it would take to code it would be pretty minimal (few hours at most) and it would provide server owners with another option.
Because spending time on something that's probably going to be a big flop is not a wise use of time, especially with only one coder.

amp88

15th July 2009, 04:24

Because spending time on something that's probably going to be a big flop is not a wise use of time, especially with only one coder.

You think it's going to be a big flop. Scawen might think differently.

pik_d

15th July 2009, 04:29

You think it's going to be a big flop. Scawen might think differently.
I'm here stating my opinion, nothing more, nothing less, just as you are. My opinion that it will be a flop happens to be based on something said by someone who was arguing against me.

Matrixi

15th July 2009, 07:24

Some of the people supporting this idea seem like some pretty close minded people, some even dispising those of us who don't use the One True Setup™. Though the one who despises us asked to have a server side option to force 900° even though the LFS road cars use 720°. :D Some of these guys don't have any idea what they're talking about.

That's the thing. You're not even trying to understand that some people, simply want to drive as CLOSE as possible to reality as they can with other people doing exactly that. LFS road car wheels turn 720, but what the hell does that matter if you want to use 900? Not a single real roadcar I've ever driven has less than 900 degrees. Even my current Mitsubishi has the fastest steering in any car I've owned yet, 900 degrees. However, I can't find a pad or a mouse for controlling the car anywhere inside, how odd.

I don't mind people driving on mice and pads or anything, just as long as I don't have to race against them. And that is why I don't even race at all anymore. Less racers, good thing, yay?

pik_d

15th July 2009, 07:54

That's the thing. You're not even trying to understand that some people, simply want to drive as CLOSE as possible to reality as they can with other people doing exactly that. LFS road car wheels turn 720, but what the hell does that matter if you want to use 900? Not a single real roadcar I've ever driven has less than 900 degrees. Even my current Mitsubishi has the fastest steering in any car I've owned yet, 900 degrees. However, I can't find a pad or a mouse for controlling the car anywhere inside, how odd.

I don't mind people driving on mice and pads or anything, just as long as I don't have to race against them. And that is why I don't even race at all anymore. Less racers, good thing, yay?
When they're as ignorant and hypocritical as you, maybe. Just because your road car has 900° doesn't mean it's realistic to use 900° when the car you're driving has 720°. I hope you don't use 900° for all LFS cars, do you?

Your holier-than-thou attitude wont get you anywhere, but keep belittling mousers and thumb twiddlers, I'm sure it feels good.

halo

15th July 2009, 08:34

For the OP; if one day, if its confirmed that majority of the LFS racers has got a wheel with clutch pedal feature than this idea works as a opportunity or enrichment of the content or what ever you call it.
Until that day, disabling the auto-clutch is more or less an elitist approach IMO.
However, it can be done on server side for make those "no auto-clutch" ppl happy.

DrBen

15th July 2009, 11:38

having read up to about #175 of all the posts, I'd just like to support the idea of implementing a server-side OPTION to chose from for

-> enforcing the use of the clutch on car-models that implement a traditional h-shift transmission
--> a second option as to limit auto-clutch efficiency would be very much welcomed on my side, as well. Let's give the POWER OF CHOICE back to the users/racers!

-> enforcing the use of the clutch on car-models that implement a transmission-type that requires its use for either "shift-down" or "get-rolling" {older sequential ; newer WRC-type sequential}

I am perfectly happy with server-side enforcing of cockpit-view
-> I use it all the time, anyway.

ALSO I would be happy to get an enhanced implementation of the multiplayer-server-list on the client-side. With hard-coded options to CHOSE from whether to strive for drift/max-realism/mouse-only/keyboard-only servers out there that makes it ultimately more comfortable to make one's own choice when "going online"
It's most annoying to find myself stranded on a drift-only server that obviously didn't include the syllable "drift" in its name what-so-ever.

actual LRF- and TBO racing (as in pick-up-racing) really suffers from this long overdue differentiation.

(just my 2 cent.)

btw.: I used to race mouse AND consistently beat a few wheel-users in the process before even going for a S2 license --and still do so today, occasionally. Please also note that I'd constantly have four of my left-hand fingers placed over keys for {clutch; shift-down; shift-up; handbrake} ... even when setting auto-clutch to "on".

LFS is great IMHO in this particular respect when it comes to accessability for the unexperienced and/or under-equipped. You'll learn a great deal about vehicle dynamics WHILE ACTUALLY RACING/DRIVING with your mouse/keyboard combination of input-device-choice even before reaching a limit that actually requires a genuine wheel-setup to overcome.

Have fun racing with each other as much as you please!
DrBen

PS.: I know how to heel'n'toe AND I've already used it online. Auto-clutch is more efficient for the most part in LFS _until_ the arrival of some additional and really nasty + fun, tightly designed and corner-packed race-tracks!
Anyway, using heel-and-toe technique and encountering one's own mistakes while practicing it teached me a great deal extra over what I already knew and mastered well. So any further discussion on that point is near-pointless to me. LFS is designed to allow for maximum where-possible-realism. On the other hand it clearly won't dictate you to utilise its many options. Even the devs know why they do what they are doing so well.

STF

15th July 2009, 11:39

As far as i can see, the mouse / 2 pedal users are afraid to loose a small part or their G25&Co. friends who will fall inlove with a server type like that.
Small because let`s face it, who is willing to race under those conditions other than true realism "enthusiasts" (realism in driver movements too, not only in physics representation).
A large chunk of G25 users will stay to their <400 degrees & flappy paddle + autoclutch, because they are faster like that.

That "loss" IMO will be the beginning hype, over time it`ll settle just like FCV did, and those that really want to use it, will.

HardCore mode could be neat, combining a few checks(MC+FCV+"lock to lock match"...) and/or restrictions into one hardcoded server-side /HC=on parameter.

True that a Momo user could feel.. "stimulated" into upgrading equipment.. because ghetto rigging a clutch would not be enough to enter HC servers.
He`ll upgrade or play on the other servers, simple. No need for frustrations.

I think this could only add to the quality. Are you afraid this could be so much apreciated that you won`t have a server to race on?
Well, are you kidding me? Maybe such an option would make the old players, the disbanded teams etc, together again. People that don`t race anymore anyway.

This could improve the quality of the game and bring people back, not a new fwd car (though nothing wrong with that, don`t get me wrong).

Matrixi

15th July 2009, 11:59

When they're as ignorant and hypocritical as you, maybe. Just because your road car has 900° doesn't mean it's realistic to use 900° when the car you're driving has 720°. I hope you don't use 900° for all LFS cars, do you?

Straight to the insults, way to go. That will always work on the internet when you run out of intelligent counter-arguments.

Hypocritical? You're telling me, it's not realistic to drive a non-existant fantasy 720 degree car with 900 degrees on my wheel, while you are doing it on a gamepad? I bet next you will be telling me that using cockpit cam is unrealistic because your virtual eyelashes aren't rendered.

Your holier-than-thou attitude wont get you anywhere, but keep belittling mousers and thumb twiddlers, I'm sure it feels good.

If only you drove one week with a 900 degree wheel against gamepadders and mousers, you would discover how easily they can recover with a little twitch with their thumb/hand when another racer bumps their car and causes it to snap oversteer, while a 900 deg wheel driver has to actually physically work a lot and very quickly, and most likely still not recovering the car. That is just one example, and it causes massive rage in me when I get bumped by a padder/mouse driver causing me to spin out of control without a chance in hell of recovery, while they pass by taking my position and have the nerve to reply with a ":)". That is one reason why I don't do public racing anymore.

There is only one ignorant party here, and that's not where I am at. It has been proven over and over, that this suggestion wouldn't take anything away from the majority racers. Stop arguing for the fun of arguing and give the suggestion some brainwork for a while.

fujiwara

15th July 2009, 12:14

So you think is a controller issue ?? I am pretty sure since the first day you started to play/racing there were mousers, keyboarders involved, if now they annoy you, i am not sure is the controller is the one to blame.

i don't understand why you need the filter, when you can start you own clube right now and race only with your fellow members.

Matrixi

15th July 2009, 12:25

So you think is a controller issue ?? I am pretty sure since the first day you started to play/racing there were mousers, keyboarders involved, if now they annoy you, i am not sure is the controller is the one to blame.
There weren't any 900 degree, 3-pedal, h-pattern wheels available since day one of LFS. Back then, I was arcade racing too with my 270 degree MSFF, even though I used manual axis clutch long before S1 was released. It is only couple years ago since I started to become irritated by not racing with other people with the same handicaps.

i don't understand why you need the filter, when you can start you own clube right now and race only with your fellow members.
Creating a league and participating in it requires way too much time and commitment rather than going in to a public server when you actually feel like driving.

morpha

15th July 2009, 12:33

ROFL at morpha! you big bad simmer you. i was always wondering when i would come accross a true stand out douche on a forum, and i found you!

Please tell me what I said that makes me a douche.

€: I don't blame you for not making the distinction between a game and a simulation, but LFS is not a game, it's an Online Racing Simulator. Says so on LFS's main page.
Here's a quote from lfs.net:
LFS S2 is a serious racing simulator. No arcade modes, no steering aids - YOU have to do the driving. It is therefore highly recommended to drive the sim with a steering wheel, because even though you can use keyboard and/or mouse, a wheel is what you use in a real car, so a wheel should be used in a serious racing simulator. Especially when going online, where fast reactions are required.

geeman1

15th July 2009, 12:33

I have kind of changed my mind on this. If this is a 5 minute job (like it probably is), I see no reason to not add this. I am really not 'for' this idea, but I am not 'against' it either anymore.

Altough I must say that it won't probably be as benefical as you 'HC' people seem to think. But it won't probably affect many people either.
Maybe there will be some servers that some people can't join, but they will probably be some minor servers which didn't have a huge user base in the first place. Major servers with big user bases won't probably switch in fear of losing a portion of racers, and if they do some other server will pop in to their place without the 'HC' mode.
If a major server goes 'HC' and they somehow manage to keep the userbase, that would be just great. It won't probably "bring lots of new racers", but I guess it would make some people happy. Hell, I might even come and race there myself.

I do predict that this would end up like all those LX-servers people sometimes seem to try. Everyone goes on about how great those cars are, but when someone actually sets up a server like that, there are not that many players and nobody wants to drive around alone.

DrBen

15th July 2009, 12:50

If only you drove one week with a 900 degree wheel against gamepadders and mousers, you would discover how easily they can recover with a little twitch with their thumb/hand when another racer bumps their car and causes it to snap oversteer, while a 900 deg wheel driver has to actually physically work a lot and very quickly, and most likely still not recovering the car.
Straight-to-the-point example of how it is not done well. At that point - If I were in your shoes - I'd simply stop competing with "that guy" who obviously violates any given agreement on how to race cleanly. Maybe even stop going the that very server for good.
A server-side option to lock people out then would clearly improve your and my "in-game experience" to a much appreciated extend.

So you think is a controller issue ?? I am pretty sure since the first day you started to play/racing there were mousers, keyboarders involved, if now they annoy you, i am not sure is the controller is the one to blame.

i don't understand why you need the filter, when you can start you own clube right now and race only with your fellow members.
Needless to say - again - that a good racer knows his/her limits regardless of the input-device he/she is using at the moment of truth.

(...)
Creating a league and participating in it requires way too much time and commitment rather than going in to a public server when you actually feel like driving.

That's it what this "discussion" is all about. It's about the comprehensible quality of experience you can get when casually going online with LFS. Some want that quality of experience even when just "slacking around"(* the right word??) on public servers. Some don't care about that. We are all equal in that we all pursue different philosophies when actually diving in to our various (sometimes overlapingly similar) hobbies.

One - and only one of mine - happens to do "casual racing" on lfs. Sometimes I enjoy maximum "realism" (tell me what "fast" cars currently on sale are there that actually outperform others utilising traditional h-shift). Sometimes I ditch "realism" for the best possible practice of simply driving fast and competitively.

To each their own - exactly _how_ they want it precisely when _they_ want it

tmehlinger

15th July 2009, 16:08

Hypocritical? You're telling me, it's not realistic to drive a non-existant fantasy 720 degree car with 900 degrees on my wheel, while you are doing it on a gamepad? I bet next you will be telling me that using cockpit cam is unrealistic because your virtual eyelashes aren't rendered.

Dude, you don't have to use a wheel to know that using the full 900 degrees of rotation is a waste of energy. If the car has at most 720 degrees lock-to-lock, you're adding half a turn of the wheel just for the silly "I use all 900!!11" merit badge. It's kind of like how you don't need to be an engineer to know why crashing a car is bad. That was a piss-poor cop-out and you know it.

If only you drove one week with a 900 degree wheel against gamepadders and mousers, you would discover how easily they can recover with a little twitch with their thumb/hand when another racer bumps their car and causes it to snap oversteer, while a 900 deg wheel driver has to actually physically work a lot and very quickly, and most likely still not recovering the car.

If I drove one week with a 900 degree wheel (wait, I do) and used all 900 degrees of rotation (I don't, I can do arithmetic), I'd probably still not be exerting myself all that much physically because it's just a game.

You have turned this argument from "this option would add realism to the game" to "this option would get those damn, dirty, poor, inferior cheaters" out of the game. Get over yourself.

Matrixi

15th July 2009, 16:23

Dude, you don't have to use a wheel to know that using the full 900 degrees of rotation is a waste of energy. If the car has at most 720 degrees lock-to-lock, you're adding half a turn of the wheel just for the silly "I use all 900!!11" merit badge. It's kind of like how you don't need to be an engineer to know why crashing a car is bad. That was a piss-poor cop-out and you know it.
Wait, what (http://nismo.1g.fi/124242223299.jpg)?

If I drove one week with a 900 degree wheel (wait, I do) and used all 900 degrees of rotation (I don't, I can do arithmetic), I'd probably still not be exerting myself all that much physically because it's just a game.

You have turned this argument from "this option would add realism to the game" to "this option would get those damn, dirty, poor, inferior cheaters" out of the game. Get over yourself.
Wow, so much fury. Work out your issues with the professionals, don't take it out on me. ;)

NightShift

15th July 2009, 18:43

:feedtroll

I mean the consistency of the arguments again this suggestion is paper-thin. Nobody ever came up with something that didn't sound like an elaborate way to say "I want LFS to stay the same for ever and ever"

gxgung

15th July 2009, 19:58

You guys had a great ideea. LFS Servers could have different modes, like "Noob-zone", "Hardocre", "Nightmare". Giving the mods names and impelmenting this in the server list could give the players a lot of choise. You can join a light server and use auto-clutch and no force-feedback, or join a Nightmare server and use all the options that make driving realistic but hard.
Btw, some dope names could also bring people into LFS, so this would be great for everyone (even the producers).

I really hope the game artists get to see this and it doesn't get eclipsed by the post-flood on this topic. :)

pik_d

15th July 2009, 23:26

Straight to the insults, way to go. That will always work on the internet when you run out of intelligent counter-arguments.
1) Straight to the "insults"..... after having been replying for pages upon pages.

2) If you think you haven't been insulting then you're deluded. You claim to despise people like me, you clearly look down on people who don't feel the same way as you.

3) I called you ignorant and then pointed out WHY you're ignorant. You use 900° where there is literally no reason (not even realism) to use it. As tmehlinger said you're doing it basically to have some 900° merit badge. You can't even counter that argument so you simply link to some image that does nothing for your argument.

Hypocritical? You're telling me, it's not realistic to drive a non-existant fantasy 720 degree car with 900 degrees on my wheel, while you are doing it on a gamepad? I bet next you will be telling me that using cockpit cam is unrealistic because your virtual eyelashes aren't rendered.
Yes, I am telling you it is unrealistic to drive a non-existent 720° car with 900° of steering, while I do the same thing on a gamepad. The distinction that you failed to make is that you claimed you were being realistic, where I didn't. You're wrong, me being even less realistic doesn't change that fact at all.

If only you drove one week with a 900 degree wheel against gamepadders and mousers, you would discover how easily they can recover with a little twitch with their thumb/hand when another racer bumps their car and causes it to snap oversteer, while a 900 deg wheel driver has to actually physically work a lot and very quickly, and most likely still not recovering the car. That is just one example, and it causes massive rage in me when I get bumped by a padder/mouse driver causing me to spin out of control without a chance in hell of recovery, while they pass by taking my position and have the nerve to reply with a ":)". That is one reason why I don't do public racing anymore.
I dunno man, if they could control their car as well as you claim they can, they probably wouldn't have hit you. I don't buy your argument though, I'm a thumb twiddler and I don't have some uncanny ability to recover from a bump induced snap-oversteer. Sometimes I get lucky and I get the recovery just right, most of the time I'm sailing off into the grass/sand/wall just like you would.

Besides, my steering has about one inch of travel, you've got a steering wheel close to a foot across (well, closer to a foot than an inch I can guarantee). It's pretty hard to be quick and delicate to be just right when you've only got an inch of travel. I've gotten good only through countless hours, but some guys I race with in wheels seem to get to be as quick as I am in a lot fewer laps.

There is only one ignorant party here, and that's not where I am at. It has been proven over and over, that this suggestion wouldn't take anything away from the majority racers. Stop arguing for the fun of arguing and give the suggestion some brainwork for a while.

You're right, it probably wouldn't take anything away from the majority of racers, but almost every single argument you've given has been rage induced or just flat out illogical. I just dismantled some of your arguments based on personal experience and logic, I've yet to see you do the same to well... anyone.

lEl E Talon

16th July 2009, 00:24

Please tell me what I said that makes me a douche.

€: I don't blame you for not making the distinction between a game and a simulation, but LFS is not a game, it's an Online Racing Simulator. Says so on LFS's main page.
Here's a quote from lfs.net:

Pretty much everything you said from your first post onwards? You seem to believe that anyone that isn't completely obsessed with LFS and spending all their money and time on it does not deserve to be playing the game.
There is nothing wrong with having LFS as your number 1 hobby, go for it but if you can't recognise that some people have different priorities and enjoy other things outside of computer games your an elitist douche. On top of that, some people might not have $400 to spend on a steering wheel. to exclude them because they dont have the latest steering wheel on the market is again, a douche idea. you are just having a cry because you can't keep up with the people using auto-clutch so you want them to be slowed down to your speed.
if an F1 team comes out with a H pattern with clutch should all the other teams be forced to change to a H pattern with clutch so the other team isn't disadvantaged? no, that team should have a cup of concrete and harden the fk up. use auto-clutch or accept you will be a little bit slower.
yep its a sim and a sim is a GAME.

morpha

16th July 2009, 02:13

Pretty much everything you said from your first post onwards? You seem to believe that anyone that isn't completely obsessed with LFS and spending all their money and time on it does not deserve to be playing the game.
There is nothing wrong with having LFS as your number 1 hobby, go for it but if you can't recognise that some people have different priorities and enjoy other things outside of computer games your an elitist douche. On top of that, some people might not have $400 to spend on a steering wheel. to exclude them because they dont have the latest steering wheel on the market is again, a douche idea. you are just having a cry because you can't keep up with the people using auto-clutch so you want them to be slowed down to your speed.
if an F1 team comes out with a H pattern with clutch should all the other teams be forced to change to a H pattern with clutch so the other team isn't disadvantaged? no, that team should have a cup of concrete and harden the fk up. use auto-clutch or accept you will be a little bit slower.
yep its a sim and a sim is a GAME.

So must I repeat once again that we are talking about a server side OPTION
I never said, nor implied, that only fanatic hard core simmers deserve to be part of the LFS community, it was from the start and still is a suggestion to add a server side option.
Do you realize what that means? People are given a choice, it's not a LFS-wide restriction, it does not affect anyone offline or on servers with the option turned off.

Is it really that hard to understand what this suggestion is about? There seems to be a common misconception about it.

Besides, you didn't even bother to read my posts, yet you are calling me a douche... wow, now that's what I'd call a real douche.
I very clearly stated - several times - that it's not about results, I don't care one bit. You make the assumption that I can't keep up with auto clutcher users (checked my race results, haven't you? Oh wait no, you certainly did not) and that it somehow would be a reason for me to cry about. Your whole last post consists of assumptions (with no basis) and swearwords, keep it to yourself please.

NoYPiDRiFTER

16th July 2009, 03:11

This is going no where. You guys don't understand that its an option... You have a choice of having it on like the force cockpit view... So besides of going all up the OP's ass, why dont you lot of jerks READ that this is an OPTION Whats the point of posting ANY kind of improvement if all your gonna do is insult the OP? I mean come on.. GROW UP. What was the point of this Improvement forum if no one can even make a suggestion in a civil matter? You guys need to grow up really. I'm sure you guys are older... ACT LIKE IT AND DONT STICK YOUR HANDS UP THE OP's ASS.... You douches..

pik_d

16th July 2009, 03:14

OPTION

OPTION

morpha's was better, clearly.

Also no one insulted the OP, just some of the guys who came in here with a superiority complex because they have a third pedal.

tmehlinger

16th July 2009, 03:18

So must I repeat once again that we are talking about a server side OPTION
I never said, nor implied, that only fanatic hard core simmers deserve to be part of the LFS community

Lies. I present:

What about the 95% of the players that dont have a clutch pedal?

Hey, that's a good question ...

They can find themselves a game, this is a sim :evil:

How does it feel to be caught with your pants down?

Pretty much everything you said from your first post onwards?

In a hilarious twist, morpha was in fact being a douche from his very first post in the thread. +1 to you for reading the thread (despite morpha's accusations to the contrary).

There is nothing wrong with having the option. Options are great. Everyone gets a choice. You guys can't seem to accept that (a) it's a waste of time for Scawen and (b) you guys want it for all the wrong reasons.

NoYPiDRiFTER

16th July 2009, 03:29

pik_d

16th July 2009, 03:30

This isnt a insult then... huh?
Who is the OP?

lEl E Talon

16th July 2009, 04:10

Who is the OP?

beats me :/ i just thought morphas attitude towards anyone that doesn't live and breath LFS was a bit rank to say the least so no way i would support something to satisfy people with that kind of elitist attitude.

pik_d

16th July 2009, 04:15

My point was that the OP (original poster, the thread starter) is gxgung, who no one was insulting.

NoYPiDRiFTER

16th July 2009, 04:40

Oh yeah, mixed that up, I did mean morpha :P

MadCat360

16th July 2009, 05:19

Why is it so bad that the other players use autoclutch?

Furryappleseed

16th July 2009, 06:14

Cant a group of the guys that want non auto-clutch just use a password protected server?? Anyways I say give em the option

Maybe the forums can add another line under the license status so it can say "clutch user" for those that have the 3 pedals, though my momo won't let me have it......:really:

Glenn67

16th July 2009, 06:44

Um can I have an option to filter out all the drift an cruise servers and I'd love an option to filter for server country of origin too, while we are talking about options :p

But I guess all the above arguments for not having a clutch only option (except for the point regarding hardware equality) could be said about these options also :shrug:

Matrixi

16th July 2009, 06:54

(Wall of text.)
Sorry mate, the only deluded one here is you. As I stated before, I don't care if you use a gamepad or a mouse, or hate anyone that does, I just don't want to race with people who do use them.

Glenn, agreed on that filter. :D

Not Sure

16th July 2009, 06:57

ITT: some people can't read..

Matrixi

16th July 2009, 07:16

Had a little time to spend on replying on this most likely a troll post before heading out.

3) I called you ignorant and then pointed out WHY you're ignorant. You use 900° where there is literally no reason (not even realism) to use it. As tmehlinger said you're doing it basically to have some 900° merit badge. You can't even counter that argument so you simply link to some image that does nothing for your argument.
You haven't pointed out a single damn thing. Please, I beg you, show me one single common real world street car that has under 900 degrees of lock.

Yes, I am telling you it is unrealistic to drive a non-existent 720° car with 900° of steering, while I do the same thing on a gamepad.
I think I'll have to sig this one.

You're wrong
And here we have it children, the core of all arguments.

I dunno man
Yes, we have all noticed that by now.

Besides, my steering has about one inch of travel, you've got a steering wheel close to a foot across (well, closer to a foot than an inch I can guarantee).
A little twitch of a thumb in 0.01 seconds for max lock to recover, or 1.5 seconds for turning a large circular device around. Mmm, yees. I can see it is much easier for wheel drivers.

You're right, it probably wouldn't take anything away from the majority of racers
Wait, so why are you still spurting out your hatred on my posts if you actually agree on the suggestion? Oh, I know: Arguing for the fun of arguing.

STF

16th July 2009, 07:21

Maybe the forums can add another line under the license status so it can say "clutch user"

Why ? That`s like wanting to have a third testicle. And this is not the case.:shrug:

Furryappleseed

16th July 2009, 08:02

Why ? That`s like wanting to have a third testicle. And this is not the case.:shrug:

.....

Anyways, as a former rumblepad user for my first 2 months in lfs I would have to say it is much easier for me with the wheel. You have that twitch recover, but that's because when entering the corner you twitched and sent the car into a slide. Having your entire steering input crammed into a half inch space didn't help me especially once i got a little faster and was pushing cars more towards their limits.

pik_d

16th July 2009, 08:12

You haven't pointed out a single damn thing. Please, I beg you, show me one single common real world street car that has under 900 degrees of lock.
Really? Then why do you cut out most of what I say when you reply? You did the same thing with the post you just quoted. Clearly if you cut my posts down to stuff like "I dunno man" it looks like you're right. I have no idea where to find out a huge list of steering lock angles on common cars, and I've got a feeling you don't either. Maybe next you should ask me what the meaning of life is.

The developers of LFS came up with most of the cars in the game, albeit with some obvious influences. If they say the car has 720° of lock then that's what it has. They designed the cars and who are you to say that they should have 900° of lock instead?

Actually, I did find some cars googling around a bit. The Lancer Evo V had about 2.25 turns from lock to lock, which is about 810°. The Alfa Romeo 147 GTA has only 1.75, a mere 630°. Oh, and here's a good one, the BMW 3-series. It's got 1.7 turns to lock (though at higher speed active steering increases that).

I think I'll have to sig this one.
Ah yes, the old "I'll take something out of context to make someone look foolish" trick.

And here we have it children, the core of all arguments.
That was the conclusion of the argument. That you avoided rebutting with your quips. Guess what, quips aren't going to prove anyone wrong, ever. I may call you names, but at least I follow that up with why I feel I'm right in my assertion. If you think I'm being foolish maybe you should try and back up such claims with... well... anything really.

Yes, we have all noticed that by now.
Yes, more stuff taken out of context to make me look silly. You're really good at this arguing game, oh wait... you might take that out of context too... crap!!! If you're not going to bother coming up with ideas based on logic and actual experience then maybe you should just give up.

A little twitch of a thumb in 0.01 seconds for max lock to recover, or 1.5 seconds for turning a large circular device around. Mmm, yees. I can see it is much easier for wheel drivers.
Wow. Again you're making it out to seem like I said something completely different than what I said. I made a statement talking about how it's more difficult for me to make precise and delicate movements, and you cut that out and talk about reaction times due to the physical input device.

Not only that but you pull times out of your ass to make it look like I can react 150x faster than you. If it really takes you 1.5 seconds to react then you'd already be in the grass before you even attempted a recovery. You're probably too dangerous to be racing anyway if you can't even properly recover from an accident.

Hint: It does not take you 1.5 seconds to steer yourself into a recovery slide.

Wait, so why are you still spurting out your hatred on my posts if you actually agree on the suggestion? Oh, I know: Arguing for the fun of arguing.
I believe that for the most part, your reasons (not just you, also some others who have posted in this topic) for wanting this form of segregation are wrong. You specifically seem to be afraid to lose to someone with a lesser setup. Guess what, you'll lose if you're worse than your competitor, regardless of input device. You'll beat people if you're better than them, even if they have the magic speed race enhancing auto-clutch enabled. Some simply look down on those of us without a third pedal. As has been recently pointed out morpha really does seem to think he is more entitled to this game than others.

Not to mention that in the long run this option will be a total flop, almost assuredly a waste of Scawen's time. I have a feeling though that this makes too much sense for you to quote in your next reply, should we ever be graced with it.

.....

Anyways, as a former rumblepad user for my first 2 months in lfs I would have to say it is much easier for me with the wheel. You have that twitch recover, but that's because when entering the corner you twitched and sent the car into a slide. Having your entire steering input crammed into a half inch space didn't help me especially once i got a little faster and was pushing cars more towards their limits.

Thanks for this. It's nice to know that Matrixi is 100% wrong.

Matrixi

16th July 2009, 09:37

Really? Then why do you cut out most of what I say when you reply? You did the same thing with the post you just quoted. Clearly if you cut my posts down to stuff like "I dunno man" it looks like you're right.
Because I'm a mean bastard, who's tired of writing 1 hour posts on this forum, especially since this suggestion most likely will never come true. You can't call the other party an ignorant, delusional hypocrite with plans to be treated with silk gloves. You get what you give.

The developers of LFS came up with most of the cars in the game, albeit with some obvious influences. If they say the car has 720° of lock then that's what it has. They designed the cars and who are you to say that they should have 900° of lock instead?
If that's what you are basing your ridiculous claims upon, what do you have to say about the fact that the developers do not officially support a gamepad at all? You are driving with controller with ingame settings meant for wheel drivers. What's the icon next to your name in the connection list? Is it a 'W' as in WHEEL? Quite right my friend. In other words, with your own logic, you shouldn't be playing LFS at all since devs didn't find a gamepad realistic enough driving controller to be supported at all in the first place!

Actually, I did find some cars googling around a bit. The Lancer Evo V had about 2.25 turns from lock to lock, which is about 810°. The Alfa Romeo 147 GTA has only 1.75, a mere 630°. Oh, and here's a good one, the BMW 3-series. It's got 1.7 turns to lock (though at higher speed active steering increases that).
Can't say I agree on the EVO, as the one I've driven has 2.5 turns of lock, could be possible that other country import versions differ on that part. You have me on the Alfa, granted, however it's more of an exception than a rule. The 3-series.. which model would you happen to be speaking of? Having owned several of them, I can tell you from this standing, that an powersteered E30 has 1440 degrees of lock (4 turns!), an E36 has 1260 degrees of lock (3.5 turns) and as far as I know E46 has the same 3.5 turns as E36 since they share the same steering components. I recall some TVR that has way under 900 degree lock aswell, but that isn't a very common road car.

There isn't a real world car, with similarity with LFS cars, that would have this low steering lock as the devs have given the cars. That is why, I prefer to drive realistically according to real life physics, rather than what the developers have deemed "realistic".

Ah yes, the old "I'll take something out of context to make someone look foolish" trick.
That was a direct quote, not taken out of context of anywhere. Can't you remember what you've written yourself? :)

If you think I'm being foolish maybe you should try and back up such claims with... well... anything really.
I've given you plenty of reasons, you just choose to ignore them out of your own will just to argue some more.

Yes, more stuff taken out of context to make me look silly. You're really good at this arguing game, oh wait... you might take that out of context too... crap!!! If you're not going to bother coming up with ideas based on logic and actual experience then maybe you should just give up.
Again, I and others have given you the reasons and feelings why we want this suggestion in. There is hardly any logic involved when you choose to ignore them.

Wow. Again you're making it out to seem like I said something completely different than what I said.
I think I'm sensing similar feelings here.

I made a statement talking about how it's more difficult for me to make precise and delicate movements, and you cut that out and talk about reaction times due to the physical input device.
The fact is, you do not need precision when steering with a gamepad in LFS when you need to do a quick save. I have tried driving with a gamepad myself (just to see what it feels like, can you say the same about yourself and wheels?) and the same rules do not apply that do in real life. You say you need precision for everything, while you actually don't. You need it for certain things, I grant you that much.

However, it is simply physically impossible in reality, to do what you can do with a gamepad in LFS. You can not escape that argument, no matter what you think you can pull off. And that is why I do not want to race against people using controllers who can pull off manouvers that could not be done in real life. There, said it once again, feel free to ignore it this time aswell.

Not only that but you pull times out of your ass to make it look like I can react 150x faster than you. If it really takes you 1.5 seconds to react then you'd already be in the grass before you even attempted a recovery. You're probably too dangerous to be racing anyway if you can't even properly recover from an accident. Hint: It does not take you 1.5 seconds to steer yourself into a recovery slide.
Have a little look in to my standings, and notice that I'm far from dangerous to race with. 1.5 seconds was simply an example, though a very realistic one if you would drive with a DFP. I think, if I turned my G25 REALLY REALLY fast from one lock to another, it would take about one second. But hey, how would you know this. You don't drive with a wheel, yet you claim to have all the knowledge of driving with one.

I believe that for the most part, your reasons (not just you, also some others who have posted in this topic) for wanting this form of segregation are wrong.
Just admit you love arguing.

You specifically seem to be afraid to lose to someone with a lesser setup. Guess what, you'll lose if you're worse than your competitor, regardless of input device.
Not this again. We have told you OVER AND OVER, that standings do not matter. I think this is the source of your whole misunderstanding. If the standing you are at is all what matters to you at the end of the race, I understand you perfectly now. For us, it is the trip before getting to the checkered flag that is exciting, not the standings afterward. That is why we choose to drive with FFB enabled wheels, feeling the cars suspension and tires with your own hands is something you can not get on a gamepad, but if something like that isn't what you care about, you can not possibly understand us.

You'll beat people if you're better than them, even if they have the magic speed race enhancing auto-clutch enabled. Some simply look down on those of us without a third pedal. As has been recently pointed out morpha really does seem to think he is more entitled to this game than others.
Again, making up stuff and ignoring what I've said in my previous post. I don't look down at you any more than the next guy. You try to victimize yourself too much. Morpha, like myself, should have our own preference who to race with.

It hasn't been written in the license agreement, that everyone must race against everyone, no matter of the controller. If the "HC" hardware guys want to race evenly against each other, there is absolutely no reason for them not to. It's not like you can go in to a Lamborghini meeting with a VW Polo either. This world isn't built on fairness.

Not to mention that in the long run this option will be a total flop, almost assuredly a waste of Scawen's time. I have a feeling though that this makes too much sense for you to quote in your next reply, should we ever be graced with it.
Ah, the good old "waste of development time"-argument. Those just have to work!

Thanks for this. It's nice to know that Matrixi is 100% wrong.
Thanks for showing your true (http://nismo.1g.fi/wrong.jpg) personality.

Sorry, I can't humour your inner arguing machine any further. I have already wasted too much time writing these posts just so you can get your kicks of calling me delusional and what-not.