Round 6 Post-Race Discussion [Archive]

J@tko

14th June 2009, 22:20

Probably the most exciting race I've ever seen in my life :nod:

Quali was amazing - Gratz to Timo for pole in the dying seconds.

Race 1 was the usual mega exciting stuff, the SC at the end of Race 2 was nearly unbearable, I dunno if deko was having an orgasm or a heart attack when Diaz rolled it.

Race 3 was another fantastic reverse grid race. Kudos to Jack for doing really well and nearly grabbing that maiden win, putting away memories of the last round :hide:

Overall, another NDR epic fail from Timo [you really do like those tyres don't you], another AMAZING broadcast [which meant I did no work - cheers guys :D] and some more fantastic racing to round off the season.

Thanks to the iCON guys for putting this on - it has been by far and away the most exciting league I've raced in. Even from my POV at the back, there's been close racing all the way, and as several people have shown, there's always someone who tears up the form book and appears at the top from the middle of no-where.

Highlights of my season:
Test races were great. It's amazing to think that, 6 months ago, we had a little test race with about 20 of us around Aston GT. What amazing racing that produced, including my best ever race in LFS, catching Yann for 3rd place at the end of race 3.
Westhill was a bit of a failure, managed to wreck my team-mate, go backwards over the finish line and crash under SC :doh:
Fern Bay was just one of those races. Got my series best finish of 6th place in Race 2, just by staying on the road. I then led 95% of a lap in Race 3 before going off. Blackwood was just a fail for me. South Shitty I wasn't at. Kyoto started well with 10th in Qual, but it all went downhill after T2, and wrecking Jack W twice didn't help :(
Didn't turn up at Aston, but was treated to an amazing race.

Please put me down on the list for next season - I can't wait already. My only suggestion would be to give more people points. When there's only points for the top 10, and you have about 30 aliens in the race, it's kinda dishearteneing to us mere mortals who turn up and grind out to get a top-20 position. But ah well, I spose it does make those amazing top-10 finishes even more special :)

See you all on track

Jack "J@tko" Atkinson, Car #26 :thumb:

Tomhah

14th June 2009, 22:43

I want to thanks the organizers for iTCC (iCON :D). It has been an awsome season, and you have done a great job. I cant wait for the next season! :) The broadcasts were amazing, and the driving were super-close. Its sad that its over already.

Thanks everyone! :)

Kid222

14th June 2009, 22:56

Sad, sad evening. First race i DC-ed from 14th, second race i crashed in T1 and waited for Diaz and when i finally had chance for points in R3, i timed out again from P6. FFS...

Anyway, it was good racing whole season, either i was in or not. :)
Big thanks to orgnanisers, they put so much effort in this and it was really great, all those broadcasts and all stuff around, good job.:thumb:

scotty2888

14th June 2009, 23:13

ROUND 6 ASTON NATIONAL (AS3)

RESERVE SHOOT OUT

Only the top 16 cars of the reserve shoot out would go through to the event. In practice the big guns were doing low 1.51’s to mid 52’s. I could hit mid 52’s.

However this was were things started looking dim for me. I managed to get into the 52’s however I would still only be the 12th fastest. But that’s enough to be in the event. But here’s the kicker. There was only 12 cars that showed up. So everyone got to enter the event.

QUALY

Qualy was once again close but I wouldn’t hook the car up like I had been. Nothing seemed to go right. I could only manage a low 53. This made me start 23rd and dead last for race one.

RACE 1

It was awesome. I couldn’t believe I was finally apart of a big league. I am more than happy to have been apart of it. I got a great start from last place and immediately went for slipstream of the nearest car. It worked for me. I kept up as cars fell off the track all over the place ahead of me. I battled hard with those around me. Up to 19th by the end of lap 2.

I would climb through the places as others lost there cool ahead of me and I would even rise to run at best 16th around lap 4. But then I started falling off the pace as I hadn’t managed my tyres too well. I went back wards. I eventually stabilised in 19th place of 21 runners left.

I was right on the tail of 18th. I got in his draft and then got along side him going down the flat out section on the back of the track. I fell behind him on the run to the hairpin before the final chicane. He braked a little early and caught me off guard. I hit the brakes and tried to pull to the right to avoid him but just clipped him as I tried to avoid him spinning him off. He would rejoin in last place.

The next lap I was Running comfortably in 18th place and looking set. But I judged the chicane wrong. I didn’t cut enough of the first part throwing me off for the rest. I went up on two wheels clipped the tyre wall on the right to throw the car back down but then it tried to roll the other way. The car was bouncing and dancing all over the place. How I stopped it from rolling was amazing. I eventually got going again but my front left suspension had collapsed and broken. I was forced to drive three laps with a broken suspension.

I finished 21st and last.

RACE 2

Race two and I was hoping for something a little better. I know I can fight with them I proved it in the first race. So I went for it. Again I got a great start. I stayed with them again picking up the slipstream. Into turn one and I’m on the left with two cars to my right. Dunno if the cars to my left made contact but the middle car slid into me nudging me off into the sand trap. I kept it going and dug y way out but then the other two did make contact sending a CORE car into the same gravel trap about 50 yards ahead of me and the car that remain on track came to a stop So I gained two places.

However the next lap and on the run to the first of two hairpins I clipped the grass under braking spinning my car and I had to wait for the two behind me to pass before rejoin putting me back to last and falling back. I would remain there in last place and 23rd for the rest of the race. Or so it would seem.

On lap 12 of 13 the safety car was deployed bunched everyone up and was my saviour. A one lap last lap mad dash to the finish. On the restart coming out the chicane I was a little slower than the cars in front which would mean I fell away by about 4-5 car lengths. This would play into my hands.

Turn one there is a big crash involving several cars and I manage to somehow pick my way through the wrecks and come out the other side in 15th place, FROM 22nd. I finished in 15th of 22 finishers I think it was.

RACE 3

Nolan Scott had already won the championship now so everyone went a little crazy. I started 15th didn’t get a great start and immediately dropped to 16th of the line. But I jumped straight into his slipstream and got round the outside of him before turn one and then ended up on the middle line for turn one giving me the inside line for turn one and the flick right after it.

At the flick right I was side by side with a couple cars for 12th I think it was. I got tapped putting two wheels on the grass, I spun and ended up sideways in front of everyone. Someone collected me and sent me rolling down the track were I would end up on my roof and out the race.

So my first ever meet in the big league and I end up in a huge accident. Doc says I will be fine and can race on. I was lucky the car was built so well. Welcome to the ITCC Scotty boy.

pacesetter

14th June 2009, 23:27

................................

So my first ever meet in the big league and I end up in a huge accident. Doc says I will be fine and can race on. I was lucky the car was built so well. Welcome to the ITCC Scotty boy.

Last paragraph is my favourite :D

dan926

14th June 2009, 23:31

u see scottys not all there so he does say some random things :D

AstroBoy

15th June 2009, 01:45

Timo's rear wing = win :)

Just watched some of the broadcast that was a crazy last round.

scotty2888

15th June 2009, 01:54

Last paragraph is my favourite :D

I like to keep the readers happy. :razz: But I am surprised anyone bothered to read it. Thank you. :shy:

hyntty

15th June 2009, 06:18

I'm happy :)

Pole with quite a margin (O_o), tho I knew it wasn't going to last in the race as I hadn't driven a lap of this combo before yesterday morning. So I only had the time to do short stints. I decided to concentrate on quali, since last time around i was like the 14th in shootoout and if someone had come along...

Anyway, I didn't really expect the races to be that bad tbh. I discovered on the start that my set isn't good at it. It didn't help that the phone rang in the middle of race 1. That dropped me a few places down. Had some awesome overtakes, Pickard was a good fight. But the server was quite laggy. Something overall lagged badly in qualifying (lfs took a while before realising I improved my time) and on the last lap the timing also froze, which ment I didn't know Nolan had actually passed me. (I saw him ahead when pickard/ward did something weird and decided to epicdivebomb me. But since he was neither ahead nor behind I figured he was a alap down..) So ultimately your awesomely crap server cost a position there. *cough* racesim *cough*

Race 2 - all the same. Climbed a few positions after start. Noticed that r3's had no grip whatsoever.

Race 3 - I did know there was a 2,5 sec gap between me and Faurie. But I decided to go after P1/2 and made a small mistake which borked the car a bit. But I don't care tbh, 5th in this company is a good position.

As said, I'm happy for the quali. I was pleased with it already, and didn't feel pressure after that anymore in the races. I was just a bit unlucky.

Thanks icon for a great season, I don't know wheather I can make the next one. But change your server provider. Your current one isn't especially reliable from what I've seen during the past feew months.

Oh, did anyone notice my special rear wing?

snoring_snoopy

15th June 2009, 07:54

Hi there!

Replay and (provisonal) results of round 6 will be uploaded in the afternoon (If work let me..)

Thanks to all competitors who take part in this league, to the amazing commentary box (scot/american/english) and of course to Joe, who made the mainpart of organizing stuff, Stoney and Darren for admining the events.

I hope you enjoyed the league and hopefully I see some of you at the next season :thumb:

Cheers

mattydread

15th June 2009, 13:48

thxs to all racers... You have made your best, a fairplay race with crashes that couldn't be avoid... I was just spectating the race in livestreaming yesterday...
Amazing livestream and great commentaries....
i might do the race, i was qualified for the reserve shootout but i arrived too late to take part of it...

I will subscribe to the next season... I'll work for it...

Good jobs guys, a real race..

bye, see you on the server and forum...

R4R Matty° (mattydread)

Ps : Thxs Joe_Keaveney for your reply.. i apologize for not being there yesterday but it wasn't my fault..(I went to the airport, my friend's flight had 1 hour of delay...) i just waited for him, thinking that i would be probably not there... and that's just what happened...

Great job to the Renesis Team

DeadWolfBones

15th June 2009, 14:48

Race 1: Went from 10th to 2nd by the first sector split in lap 2, which was a pretty big rush. Then I made a few mistakes in the chicane over the next few laps, and the two Renesis guys caught back up. I battled with them for a few more laps (probably the best fight of the entire season for me) and then completely missed the chicane and had to go Dukes of Hazzard style over the sand. Spent the rest of the race trying to keep my teammate Arni behind me, and got really lucky when Bitan flipped it with a lap to go (sorry, Bitan!).

Race 2: Got another good start and was trying to bump teammate Rik ahead of the Renesis guys going into T1. Didn't realize one of them was still on my inside as I went for the apex. Got loose on the contact and had to do a bit of defensive driving before I caught back up to the top 3. Spent most of the race trying to bump Arni back up to the top 2. Then the yellow came out, which, frankly, I wasn't too happy to see at the time. However! After gree-white-checkers restart, I managed to get a massive bumpdraft with Arni on the backstretch and pass whichever of the Renesis guys it was that we were racing with as we went into the final hairpin. That was totally awesome.

Race 3: Blegh.

CSF

15th June 2009, 14:58

Wow just watched race 3, 71 please give yourself a big upper cut and take a good long hard look at yourself. Utterly shocking driving.

TexasLTU

15th June 2009, 15:22

Wow just watched race 3, 71 please give yourself a big upper cut and take a good long hard look at yourself. Utterly shocking driving.
If someone will post a report about me, I'll agree with this.

I just squeezed a bit too hard in T1 there, and had a incident with Rik with some lag. So, please, no need to shout all over thread I'm driving very dirty and etc.

BigTime

15th June 2009, 15:38

Utterly shocking driving.

I don't think there was 5 guys on the track last round that didn't drive like lunatics. I've never seen such a lack of respect going into the final round of the season for any league I've ever run in or spectated. With that said, I have no room to complain, because I had my fair share of issues in round 5. We can all agree the contact makes the series what it is, and I love that. The simple fact is that everyone makes mistakes, the problem is that we're beyond the mistake factor, at least for this final round.

If I had a dollar for every dive bomb that was attempted on me that resulted in contact that race, I'd have like 7 bucks.

hyntty

15th June 2009, 15:49

Besides, the bold moves are what makes it the funnest series ever. That said, we should aim for higher driving standards.

:shrug:

Rikje

15th June 2009, 15:49

Race 1: Had a good first lap and a bit of luck and got into the lead. Then it was just a matter of keeping a balance between pushing and keeping the tyres from not burning. I think I did a decent job at that one

Race 2: Bad start but had some help from Ben (thanks!) to keep me in the lead. After that it was basically the same as race 1, drive as fast but don't kill the tyres. I actually had my first restart from the lead this time and I think I didn't do that bad.

Race 3: Had a wonderful first lap going from 10th to 4th until I got rear ended and got last. After that I tried to bumpdraft myself back to a top 10 finish which eventually worked.

Even though it wasn't the cleanest race I have to admit I've had some of the best fun of the season!

Thanks again for this league iCon racing and the bunch!

Tomhah

15th June 2009, 15:55

Besides, the bold moves are what makes it the funnest series ever. That said, we should aim for higher driving standards.

:shrug:

Yeah, it is :P I mean, some times, you're unlucky, sometimes, you're not. We dont (at least, not always :P) drives like crazy idiots. Most of the passes is close, but fair in my eyes. Its touringcars, and touches happends, its just in which way that makes them bad. We're driving so damn close that mistakes happends, and is being punished more than ever. Never seen so much three-wide etc :P Its so damn fun to race, even if you're put off the track, its still fun! :P

Joe_Keaveney

15th June 2009, 16:07

I think the challenge this season has been to choose where 'touring car' racing ends and where dirty driving begins. It's not always easy, especially when there are perhaps team interests at play. We've tried always to just look at the incidents reported to us objectively and on their own merits.

Overall, I'm very pleased with how the season has been received, all of us at iCON hope we given to the LFS community something of value that everyone (y'all) will want to experience again.

We're not going to rest now, though and wait for the 2010 season. My own objective now is start asking you the racers to contribute your ideas on how we can improve iTCC.

Over the next few days, I'll be starting some new threads asking for your opinions and ideas about certain areas that we want to improve to make the 2010 iTCC Championship better, brighter and more enjoyable both for the racer and for the viewer. We're not going to be 're-inventing the wheel' (no massive changes), so don't worry - it will still be the same pedal-to-the-metal, hard racin' that you all know and love. :thumb:

The broadcasts this year have been fantastic, we've had a constant 50 or so viewers at every round which doesn't sound much but we're happy with that! The commentary team of Dekojester, boothy and Passo have been magnificent, very slick production and excitable commentary have kept us all watching. The on-demand feature means all the racers can re-watch the race to see what they missed while on-track, and for that we have Mogulus to thank. Lastly, we're very grateful to Alan Zadro (Thunderhead) for producing a great intro movie for the iTCC. He did a great job, awesome movie, and I hope he returns to LFS sometime.

I'll post the consultation threads in a few days. Stay tuned! :thumb: Thanks again..

Lastly, but most importantly - a massive thankyou to all the racers who competed in this first season of the iTCC. You're the stars of the show, guys! A big thankyou and well done to you all! :D:thumb:

Tomhah

15th June 2009, 16:13

Mogulus has renamed to livestream :shy:

Joe_Keaveney

15th June 2009, 16:15

Mogulus has renamed to livestream :shy:

Smartass. :thumb: OK Livestream....

Tomhah

15th June 2009, 16:47

:thumbsup::D:razz:

Wilko868

15th June 2009, 16:56

That race was so frustrating for me =/ Every race I managed to get a fantastic start, only to be punted off.

Ah well, racing I suppose :shrug:

Anyway, thank you very much to the whole team at iCON and others for making this series possible. Put me down for next season :thumb:

And next year I WILL get a point :tilt:

Hypothraxer

15th June 2009, 16:57

The qualifying was surprisingly good - the rest was pretty much the same old 'get sent to the back of the field' like in all rounds. But I can at least claim to have finished all races of the iTCC!

boothy

15th June 2009, 17:06

And next year I WILL get a point :tilt:

Erm, you got a point this year as well :smileypul

Bft-Master

15th June 2009, 17:17

Wilko868

15th June 2009, 17:20

Erm, you got a point this year as well :smileypul
When? :D

J@tko

15th June 2009, 17:24

When? :D
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pmcC7ozaPYqc8C-vrj7h6YQ :thumb:

Hypothraxer

15th June 2009, 17:52

I'd like to thank Joe, Darren, Tom and all the others who were organizing this. I already knew that you guys are great but now a lot more people know, how amazing iCON racing is! ;)

scotty2888

15th June 2009, 18:04

hyntty

15th June 2009, 18:07

Downforce must be set to say front 10 rear 12 at all times.

That would be nice.

DeadWolfBones

15th June 2009, 18:16

Do you smell the Renesis revenge against Core racing in 2010???

Great Job core racing,

Awesome job ITCC admins, and comentators

I can't wait for next season.

PS : Thx again DeadWolfBones for that fantastic battle on race 1

Next year, CoRe will have 28 drivers per race. :D

Yeah, awesome battle. Too bad I went through the gravel there in the chicane. Would have loved to continue it to the end.

Great racing all season, Renesis guys!

DeadWolfBones

15th June 2009, 18:17

That would be nice.

Why would that be nice?

hyntty

15th June 2009, 19:06

Why would that be nice?

Because then you can't accidentally the whole aerodynamics?

DeadWolfBones

15th June 2009, 19:57

Can't accidentally what the whole aerodynamics? :shrug:

Gil07

15th June 2009, 20:06

Can you please ban bumpdrafting next season?

Tomhah

15th June 2009, 20:13

Can you please ban bumpdrafting next season?

Saw that one coming:D:schwitz:

Gil07

15th June 2009, 20:30

It's nothing to laugh about tbh...

scotty2888

15th June 2009, 20:51

Bump drafting is apart of touring car racing. Bump drafting should remain legal. :razz:

Tomhah

15th June 2009, 21:05

It's nothing to laugh about tbh...
Did I laught? Dont think so :P I smiled :P And it should remain, IMO :P

Dennis93

15th June 2009, 21:17

Did I laught? Dont think so :P I smiled :P And it should remain, IMO :P

Yeah because otherwise noobs like you wouldnt be in the top, apart from the pro drivers, who can't find anyone who wants to bumpdraft them.

:D

Gil07

15th June 2009, 21:28

Bump drafting is apart of touring car racing. Bump drafting should remain legal. :razz:

It is? I've never seen it, apart from some yank circle racing... :really:

Wilko868

15th June 2009, 21:29

It is? I've never seen it, apart from some yank circle racing... :really:
IMO, Bumpdrafting isn't used in touring car racing. However, it increases overtaking and racing, and gives the stragglers a chance to catch back to the lead pack, so I would keep it

Mp3 Astra

15th June 2009, 21:35

I would agree about banning bumpdrafting; it was very clear at Aston and Kyoto especially, that if you got yourself a partner you could cruise past everyone. It made for good commentating but I'd rather have standard racing and cut out the silliness.

J@tko

15th June 2009, 21:41

IMO, Bumpdrafting isn't used in touring car racing. However, it increases overtaking and racing, and gives the stragglers a chance to catch back to the lead pack, so I would keep it
I'd say its easier for us to catch up without bumpdrafting for me, personally.

And it's way more interesting without it.

DeadWolfBones

15th June 2009, 21:54

Bumpdrafting enhances the team/squad aspect, IMO. Plus it's crazy fun.

Tomhah

15th June 2009, 21:57

I use bumpdrafting in real life racing. Unluckily, since Im driving formula cars, the nose always get broken for some reason:shrug: (just kidding :P)
But as Ben says, it stranghten the team aspect of the series.

rc10racer

15th June 2009, 21:57

Bumpdrafting enhances the team/squad aspect, IMO. Plus it's crazy fun.

Yea i agree with DWB, me and bigtime did it alot at KY2 to stay out infront so if it is there why should it be banned.

Mp3 Astra

15th June 2009, 22:11

Bumpdrafting enhances the team/squad aspect, IMO. Plus it's crazy fun.

Yes, but when your team/squad has 5+ drivers in the series, it gets a little ridiculous... Know what I'm saying?

It looks silly and unrealistic and, for me, I like to have a realistic race that's not enhanced by lag-induced bump drafting.

J@tko

15th June 2009, 22:14

Yes, but when your team/squad has 5+ drivers in the series, it gets a little ridiculous... Know what I'm saying?
:nod:

And it sucks if your only team-mate is alot faster than you :D

DeadWolfBones

15th June 2009, 22:50

Yes, but when your team/squad has 5+ drivers in the series, it gets a little ridiculous... Know what I'm saying?

It looks silly and unrealistic and, for me, I like to have a realistic race that's not enhanced by lag-induced bump drafting.

Ever tried to bumpdraft more than 2 cars at once in LFS?

Doesn't work very well.

So, ultimately, the number of people in a team doesn't matter unless you're just talking about the availability of bumpdrafting partners in general. And in that case, tbh I didn't discriminate between teammates and non-teammates when I wanted to bump up the field this season. The only discrimination comes when it's a choice between a teammate and a non-teammate.

scotty2888

15th June 2009, 23:05

It is? I've never seen it, apart from some yank circle racing... :really:

Yeah my bad, its the rubbins racing rule I was thinking of. :razz:

Mp3 Astra

15th June 2009, 23:20

Ever tried to bumpdraft more than 2 cars at once in LFS?

Doesn't work very well.

So, ultimately, the number of people in a team doesn't matter unless you're just talking about the availability of bumpdrafting partners in general. And in that case, tbh I didn't discriminate between teammates and non-teammates when I wanted to bump up the field this season. The only discrimination comes when it's a choice between a teammate and a non-teammate.

Check the 'cast, we had 4 car bumpdrafts on regular occasions. Lag really seems to help those ones, the speed boost is unreal. Literally.

DeadWolfBones

15th June 2009, 23:49

Eh, the risk is far too high for me to do it. I've been the meat in the 3-car sandwich too many times and seen it end in tears.

Tomhah

16th June 2009, 00:14

ever tried to bumpdraft more than 2 cars at once in lfs?

Doesn't work very well.

So, ultimately, the number of people in a team doesn't matter unless you're just talking about the availability of bumpdrafting partners in general. And in that case, tbh i didn't discriminate between teammates and non-teammates when i wanted to bump up the field this season. The only discrimination comes when it's a choice between a teammate and a non-teammate.

+1

Mp3 Astra

16th June 2009, 00:29

BigTime

16th June 2009, 03:27

Point still stands: the whole thing is dangerous, unrealistic and unfair on a guy who managed to make a break on the rest of the field. That's my 3.5 pence. EDIT: Actually, it's more like 1.75 pence. Fail.

It's not unrealistic at all...

The simple fact of the matter is, this whole bump drafting thing is being brought up because a select few drivers care to take part in it. Round 5 I was bump drafting a Merc skinned Pickard all over the place. I was doing the same in round 6 to any and everyone in front of me on the straights. The problem is, 12 guys in the series have caught on to and do it, while the others don't. Why not make a rule that says you must bump draft and are not allow to pass a driver until 300 meters before a corner entry? It solves the same issue you appeal, but in reverse. Sounds dumb doesn't it?

I really can't believe we're arguing this when drivers were dive bombing 5 and 6 cars back this last round of the season, and not a word has been said. "It's touring car racing, contact is part of it" is what we heard all year over the broadcasts... Yet you can't safely bump draft a car down the straight? Thats just a simple lack of vision...

The truth is, I wish a lot more drivers bump drafted. You can scream it's an unfair advantage, but it's not. Everyone can do it and I for one encourage it...

PMD9409

16th June 2009, 05:31

I waited a long while to respond to this thread, mainly because I just wanted a real good laugh, but this is just over the line retardation! Basically, what you guys are saying by us not being allowed to bumpdraft is this:

"Guys, we will not allow you to bump on the straights to wisely work your way up the field, instead, we are allowing to dangerously bump in corners, even at high speed. You might ask why? Well that's because this is for a good show, and people acting wisely is just plain wrong."

Thanks guys, I fully understand your concerns now.

Gil07

16th June 2009, 10:05

Joe_Keaveney

16th June 2009, 10:18

Yes, way to go to miss the point...

I'll try to explain again... In which racing series do you ever see bumpdrafting? It's just something that is not part of racing, end of! It's ridiculous that it was allowed in the first place during this season imo.

Please remember this is the first season of the iTCC. We wrote the rules back in 2008, and revised them after the 're-start' incidents at Round 1. Bumpdrafting was not disallowed - it just wasn't mentioned in the rules. From then on we just ran with the rules as they were. We were determined not to change the rules mid-season. Which meant bumpdrafting was not outlawed.

Now the season has finished, we'll be looking at what has made the season such good fun and we'll concentrating on how to keep the fun going for the 2010 season. At the same time, we'll be looking at what 'touring car racing is about' - to my mind that means short, intense races between closely matched cars with robust but fair racing. Whether bumpdrafting makes it into Season 2 remains to be seen. Anyway, let's get on with enjoying what we've had this season, go and watch the races again, they're great fun to watch, if only to listen to Deko,Passo and Boothy having repeated cardiac arrests!

dekojester

16th June 2009, 10:19

Yes, way to go to miss the point...

I'll try to explain again... In which racing series do you ever see bumpdrafting? It's just something that is not part of racing, end of! It's ridiculous that it was allowed in the first place during this season imo.

It is allowed in NASCAR. And NASCAR is a racing series, no matter how much some people will argue it isn't.

The point is, is that it was allowed this season, and there is no bloody point for anyone in tossing a fit about it. It was what it was, and it's time to deal with it. Why the uproar about it now ? Why not right after Kyoto ? Is there a difference between then and now ? If it was a problem, it should have been brought up after Kyoto, not after the season's done. The only thing this discussion can affect now is future runnings of the iTCC. But to be honest, this is more of nit-picking than really anything productive to me. Perhaps there's something here that some are miffed that some realized that bumpdrafting would be an advantage over standard slipstreaming.

To my mind, there was nothing wrong with bumpdrafting on Sunday, or ever. Sure, lag can give someone an uberboost if it doesn't spin them. But who's to say that it won't cause them to fall off the track ? I'm kinda with those here who say that "You can allow door banging in turns, but no nose to tail bumping in a straight ?" Okay, it has an element of apples to oranges to it, but I do see the potential double-standard here.

Anyway, the input should be welcomed by the admins, but afterall, it's their series, their call.

:shrug:

Gil07

16th June 2009, 10:23

I brought it up now, exactly for the reasons Joe mentioned... Let season 1 run its course, and then improve the rules for the next one ;)

Oh and deko, I did make an exception for yank circle racing a couple posts back :razz:

Tomhah

16th June 2009, 14:20

Bump drafting is a part of the racing, the end. Its possible, it doesnt hurt and in my eyes, it will make the driving more safe. Just think about that you pass a guy, then, he tries to divebomb you into the next corner to retake his position. Im sure that will happend a lot.

Mp3 Astra

16th June 2009, 14:21

I really can't believe we're arguing this when drivers were dive bombing 5 and 6 cars back this last round of the season, and not a word has been said. "It's touring car racing, contact is part of it"

A little bit of contact is touring car racing. Note A LITTLE, like rubbing door panels in a corner. Bump drafting isn't minor contact, it's crashing into the back of someone at 15+mph. Bump drafting is to be left on the oval, in my opinion for all the reasons I stated above. This is just my opinion and, as you can see, even my crazy co-commentator disagrees with me. Maybe I'm in a minority here but whatever.

I waited a long while to respond to this thread, mainly because I just wanted a real good laugh, but this is just over the line retardation! Basically, what you guys are saying by us not being allowed to bumpdraft is this:

"Guys, we will not allow you to bump on the straights to wisely work your way up the field, instead, we are allowing to dangerously bump in corners, even at high speed. You might ask why? Well that's because this is for a good show, and people acting wisely is just plain wrong."

Thanks guys, I fully understand your concerns now.

Thanks Phil, I fully have absolutely no idea where you got that nonsense from. You were a perfect example of bump drafting going wrong, in race three of round six. You hit Nolan and you were off, no control. Luckily there was nobody near you to pick up the pieces.

hyntty

16th June 2009, 14:45

I don't care tbh wheather bumpdrafting is dis- or -allowed. I haven't done it much myself and won't do in the future.

If I got to decide I'd ban it. First of all these cars IRL would be so fragile you couldn't possibly do it without breaking your cheesemobile. The fact that some hillybilly yanks, who only succeed in racing when there are no right hand turns and when there are a sacked ex-F1 driver who used to crash his teammates beats them all, do it in America with solid iron cars that weigh thirty tons - well is a COMPLETELY ****ING DIFFERENT thing. Besides what good has ever come out of America anyway?

Secondly it's dangerous. Online racing /= a ping of 0.

Thirdly, when one team has 173 drivers in this series it becomes unfair. I don't think being passed on a straight by two bumpdrafting teammates is quite fair, though that's just my opinion. I'm sure PMD will disagree on this since the latter of the two bumpdrafting cars won't be along side of the first one and will epically try to divebomb him/it. (I know this sentence made no sense. Sarcasm is sometimes quite odd.) What was wrong with the nice pass-from-the-draft-and-nicely-get-the-inside-line-and-don't-wreck-the-car-in-front -type of pass(ing)?

This will most probably end in the majority voting for "yes bumpdraft" since Core drivers outnumber everyone else :thumbsup:

DeadWolfBones

16th June 2009, 14:49

The fact that some hillybilly yanks, who only succeed in racing when there are no right hand turns and when there are a sacked ex-F1 driver who used to crash his teammates beats them all, do it in America with solid iron cars that weigh thirty tons - well is a COMPLETELY ****ING DIFFERENT thing. Besides what good has ever come out of America anyway?

Aaaand there goes any credibility, and any reason for me to pay attention to you. Thanks! :)

edit: I also find it interesting that bumpdrafting was essentially a major factor only in two races during the season, which is somewhat similar to how often it's a factor in NASCAR.

hyntty

16th June 2009, 15:02

Obvious sarcasm is obvious.

Gil07

16th June 2009, 15:24

Oh my, Timo making valid points... What has the world come to?! :x:D

Tomhah

16th June 2009, 15:49

bumpdrafting happends in real life racing, and I dont see any problem with it here. I agree with Nolan and Ben completely.

Gil07

16th June 2009, 15:58

bumpdrafting happends in real life racing, and I dont see any problem with it here. I agree with Nolan and Ben completely.

Care to give examples? And ones that suit (ie touring car racing) please :)

NotAnIllusion

16th June 2009, 16:11

I remember a Caterham race vid posted a long while back here on the forums, where there was obvious and intended bumpdrafting. At one point the driver getting bumped actually was trying to wave through the drafter who must have been trying to gain time since he took a while to make the pass.

I'll go away now since I have nothing to do with this series *runs* :D

Bft-Master

16th June 2009, 17:24

The problem of bumpdraft is just if the driver you bump wouldn't be bumpdrafted, and a lag cause an incident....

The driver in front can post a protest?

TexasLTU

16th June 2009, 17:27

LOL bumpdraft is a great thing, no need to ban it! :D Guy in front is going like on 218 Km/h and you go like 240 Km/h. Its such a awesome thing.
/sarcasm

DeadWolfBones

16th June 2009, 17:58

The problem of bumpdraft is just if the driver you bump wouldn't be bumpdrafted, and a lag cause an incident....

The driver in front can post a protest?

I certainly would. If you bump with someone who you haven't cleared it with previously, you do it at considerable risk. That said, sometimes the risk is worth the reward. :shrug:

scotty2888

16th June 2009, 18:25

The problem of bumpdraft is just if the driver you bump wouldn't be bumpdrafted, and a lag cause an incident....

Lag can happen at anytime even when your side by side banging door handles TOURING CAR STYLE and cause an accident. I see no difference. :shrug:

Mp3 Astra

16th June 2009, 18:26

Lag can happen at anytime even when your side by side banging door handles TOURING CAR STYLE and cause an accident. I see no difference. :shrug:

Because crashing into the back of someone to get a speed boost is a deliberate action. Banging doorhandles is a side-effect of some overtaking maneuveres. Moreover, bump drafting is not a touring car-style action.

scotty2888

16th June 2009, 18:29

I wasnt talking about deliberate crashing. I was looking at it from the lag point of view. :razz:

Plus bump drafting done properly is just a gentle bump on the rear as the cars make contact then should stay touching surley?

Tomhah

16th June 2009, 18:38

I've seen car pushes in WTCC? We have a norwegian series here in Norway where they do push each other. Similar in Sweden etc. Its not FORBIDDEN. They are allowed! Not everyone DOES, but some do. The guys that dont do it, doesnt because they wont get any marks on their car :P The CoRe mechanics is so good that I dont need to be afraid of that :P

scotty2888

16th June 2009, 18:47

They have done it in the past in the BTCC but rarely. Again I dont think it is forbidden but they just rarely do it.

boothy

16th June 2009, 19:50

Only series in the UK I've seen it done with is the Legends at Knockhill, which has ended in tears before...

In the BTCC its not done - in LFS the draft is too big and the damage is too little.

Tomhah

16th June 2009, 19:57

Only series in the UK I've seen it done with is the Legends at Knockhill, which has ended in tears before...

In the BTCC its not done - in LFS the draft is too big and the damage is too little.

And thats why its perfect. :P But the draft is NOT too big in LFS. We get much more draft in the formula series Im driving in, than on LFS. The slipstream is just huge in those cars. Its more than in LFS :P The LFS drafting isnt too big. Its big, but not too much :P At least, not much. The damage is little, yes, thats why it is perfect, and less dangerous than IRL.

Gil07

16th June 2009, 19:58

:rolleyes:

Mp3 Astra

16th June 2009, 20:14

With great respect to all the racers who have provided thrilling races for the last few months, here's a video showing my feelings for bump drafting [in circuit racing].

I nicknamed it 'Touring Car Techniques (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV8tM2r4hRY)'

TexasLTU

16th June 2009, 20:18

:sadbanana

zeugnimod

16th June 2009, 20:20

Point very well made. :D

Hypothraxer

16th June 2009, 20:25

I was wondering if you have to apply to this bump drafting - when someone came from behind he always chose the other car to bump leaving me in the dust, making me think that I forgot to pay my dues? ;)

Mp3 Astra

16th June 2009, 20:30

J@tko

16th June 2009, 20:34

It's an exclusive club. You have to prove your worth!
He has to get into the Communist Order of Racing Enthusiasts first :hide:

boothy

16th June 2009, 20:38

I think if I was a driver and was left out the C would be replaced by a different word... :p

Gil07

16th June 2009, 20:44

Passo, I love you :D

PMD9409

16th June 2009, 21:08

How is my post nonsense? You guys said yourself that this is touring car racing, where bumping happens. So if in real touring cars they don't bump down the straights (because they don't get as big of a draft as in LFS), they can only bump in the turns. I don't know about you guys, but bumping the turns sound mighty dangerous.

You want to know the ignorant part about that video Passo? All the "accidents" happened in the turns, so that must be touring car racing! :thumb:

Mp3 Astra

16th June 2009, 21:16

I didn't like your post because you refused to understand the point, and also decided that we're all retarded.

... but this is just over the line retardation!

How is my post nonsense? You guys said yourself that this is touring car racing, where bumping happens. So if in real touring cars they don't bump down the straights (because they don't get as big of a draft as in LFS), they can only bump in the turns. I don't know about you guys, but bumping the turns sound mighty dangerous.

But it seems you still do not understand. Bump drafting is deliberate contact. Contact in touring cars is inevitable but is mostly (and should be) accidental.

You want to know the ignorant part about that video Passo? All the "accidents" happened in the turns, so that must be touring car racing! :thumb:

As for the video, well, I'm sorry you found it ignorant but the cause of all the crashes was bump drafting. If you're going 10+ mph quicker into a corner because of that technique, you're always going to have a greater likelihood of problems/contact: Which is precisely the point I am making.

PMD9409

16th June 2009, 21:32

I didn't like your post because you refused to understand the point, and also decided that we're all retarded.

But it seems you still do not understand. Bump drafting is deliberate contact. Contact in touring cars is inevitable but is mostly (and should be) accidental.

As for the video, well, I'm sorry you found it ignorant but the cause of all the crashes was bump drafting. If you're going 10+ mph quicker into a corner because of that technique, you're always going to have a greater likelihood of problems/contact: Which is precisely the point I am making.

You are retarded for saying we are allowed to get away with bumping in turns, but not on straights.

Deliberate contact, yes, but what's your point? The person you are either pushing is either your team mate or someone you are benefiting. At no point is it unfair because anyone can do it, choosing not to is your own fault.

None of those accidents were caused by bumpdrafting, except the one between me and Nolan, and that was a minor off course where no one was harmed. The first incident you have me making a 3 wide pass on the inside, and last time I checked you have to have more speed in order to pass someone, in which I did (not from bumpdrafting). And yet I was bumped at the apex of the corner, after completing the pass, and almost spun. Next you have the 4 car bump train, which had no danger in it unless lag tookover, in which it didn't. The cars go 3 wide into T1, an early apex into the turn, and the car on the outside cuts down on the car in the middle. So, if he is going too fast into the turn Passo, how can he cut someone off at the apex of the turn?

Mp3 Astra

16th June 2009, 21:42

You are retarded for saying we are allowed to get away with bumping in turns, but not on straights.

First, stop insulting me.

Deliberate contact, yes, but what's your point? The person you are either pushing is either your team mate or someone you are benefiting. At no point is it unfair because anyone can do it, choosing not to is your own fault.

So because I'm out in the lead, all by myself, being the best driver in the race, it's my fault that the guys behind are bump drafting right into my ass and straight past. Of course. How could I be so retarded?!?! If you need to bump draft another car to make yourself 3 positions (and lose them again), then you're not in touring cars. Head back to the oval (no insult, it's a fact. BD belongs on the oval).

You are driving into the back of another car, hoping to God they know exactly what is about to happen, and that lag won't screw you over.

None of those accidents were caused by bumpdrafting, except the one between me and Nolan, and that was a minor off course where no one was harmed. The first incident you have me making a 3 wide pass on the inside, and last time I checked you have to have more speed in order to pass someone, in which I did (not from bumpdrafting). And yet I was bumped at the apex of the corner, after completing the pass, and almost spun.

It was from BD; you took Texas with you and he did not react in time and nearly ended up piling into the back of everyone. He had to take to the grass because of his extra speed. Not really good racing there. As for your move, you nearly didn't get round the corner, the guys you passed were quite shocked you appeared in front of them from such a long way back, because of the bump drafting.

Next you have the 4 car bump train, which had no danger in it unless lag tookover, in which it didn't. The cars go 3 wide into T1, an early apex into the turn, and the car on the outside cuts down on the car in the middle. So, if he is going too fast into the turn Passo, how can he cut someone off at the apex of the turn?

There shouldn't be that many cars, so close together, going at such high speed. That can be attributed to bump drafting, as well as poor race-craft.

In conclusion, Bump Drafting still has no place in touring cars.

Gil07

16th June 2009, 21:46

Are you being deliberately obtuse, PMD? :shrug:

TexasLTU

16th June 2009, 21:57

Wow.

PMD9409

16th June 2009, 22:08

Are you being deliberately obtuse, PMD? :shrug:

Pretty much. You have Passo saying not to insult him, after dedicating a video to me (I was the main person in it).

Nothing about it was mentioned in the rules, and we had no warnings. If something happens, you protest, the same as if you are bumped in a turn.

Passo, you ever heard of "strategy". That word does exist you know, in most series you just see it used in the pits, but in others you will see racing strategy, consisting of all different things. This series seemed to show bumpdrafting as strategy, and tbh half the time that was the safest way around people.

What do I know, I am just a stupid Yank that does circle racing.

DeadWolfBones

16th June 2009, 22:09

Bumpdrafting made several of the races quite a lot more fun for me (namely, the ones where the track included a straight so stupidly long for such slow cars that I'd otherwise be asleep). It adds an element of strategy and risk to the races, and I really enjoy it, personally. I don't really care if it's done in real touring car racing or not--it's done in iTCC and that's great, IMO.

If they change the rules to outlaw it, we'll still pwn y'all. :nod::thumbsup:

Tomhah

16th June 2009, 22:10

Passo. That movie didnt prove anything. For the first, as Phil says, most of them wasnt caused by bumpdraft. You drive as fast as you can into the corner, and you KNOW you are going faster, you BRAKE earlier. That collision was NOT caused by bumpdrafting.

So because I'm out in the lead, all by myself, being the best driver in the race, it's my fault that the guys behind are bump drafting right into my ass and straight past

Then, you're not the best driver, because you do not use your advantage to bumpdraft. You should then do your best to get behind them as fast as possible and start your way up. this is not hotlapping, this is racing. Where the speed isnt everything. Use your mind to how to get back up to that place. Have a tactic. THEN, you're the best driver. If you win, you're the best. Easy as it can be. Its the same as saying as drafting is not allowed. Drafting makes you move faster, THE END: ANd then, you're coming too fast into the corner, and you will spin off. Thats at least what Passo says. So I hope I wont get a better out-corner than usual, since I brake at the same point every lap. You also included 4 cases in the movie. Include the ones that was NOT "caused" by bumpdrafting, and you will have as many as you wont be able to upload the movie to youtube, because its too big. Crashes happends in turns (mostly), not because of bumpdrafting. Of course, some crashes is caused by bumpdrafting, but very few of them is. Its the same as saying as passing should be dissallowed, since THATS dangerous.

This is silly

dekojester

16th June 2009, 22:12

DeadWolfBones

16th June 2009, 22:13

I think we can all agree, at least, that the LFS aero and damage modelling need to be fixed sooner rather than later. The bumpdrafting we have in LFS with these cars at the moment is directly traceable to the indestructible front bumpers and the massive air wedges the cars cut.

jwardy

16th June 2009, 22:15

is it me , or do people take this a tiny bit too serious :scratchch

DeadWolfBones

16th June 2009, 22:15

It's not you!

Mp3 Astra

16th June 2009, 22:17

It wasn't meant as an insult, just a demonstration as to what happens when it goes wrong. Anyway, you were calling me retarded before I even had the idea for a video in my little brain.

Passo, you ever heard of "strategy". That word does exist you know, in most series you just see it used in the pits, but in others you will see racing strategy, consisting of all different things. This series seemed to show bumpdrafting as strategy, and tbh half the time that was the safest way around people.

You're right, this series did show bump drafting as a viable strategy; but that still doesn't make it right or realistic, in my opinion. It's not a safe way around anyone: it's a farce because it takes next to no skill. I'd much rather see someone draft and then pull out of the draft and attempt to pass as opposed to following a train of cars past an driver who is all alone.

And now 4 posts have been made since I started writing this one. Let me make this clear: my video was really just a satircal look at bump drafting and wasn't intended to offend. I'm passionate (and have been for many years) about touring car racing so I'm going to fight its corner whenever something comes along to bring it into disrepute.

Wilko868

16th June 2009, 22:19

IMO until LFS has the damage model and the lack of a git big tow behind the car ahead, we might as well use what we have :shrug:

(Let the flaming commence)

J@tko

16th June 2009, 22:19

is it me , or do people take this a tiny bit too serious :scratchch
http://nissaninfiniticlub.net/photopost/data/500/4455internet_serious_business.JPG

TexasLTU

16th June 2009, 22:19

I'm with you guys! (Bit Too Serious&Co.)

Mp3 Astra

16th June 2009, 22:21

@Deko, I feel this discussion is important for the future rules of the series. I'm just making my point and arguing the case against bump drafting.

DeadWolfBones

16th June 2009, 22:24

I'm with you guys! (Bit Too Serious&Co.)

Racername: SRS:Passo

Mp3 Astra

16th June 2009, 22:25

racername: srs:passo

:D l

TexasLTU

16th June 2009, 22:25

And everyone will argue to the drop. iTCC forum moderators should lock this thread.
:shrug:

Mp3 Astra

16th June 2009, 22:26

And everyone will argue to the drop. iTCC forum moderatotd should lock this thread.
:shrug:

We're having an interesting discussion. What are you contributing?

TexasLTU

16th June 2009, 22:26

Racername: SRS:Passo
Nonono, we have BTS tag here. SRS is a shortcut of SRSLY

TexasLTU

16th June 2009, 22:27

We're having an interesting discussion. What are you contributing?
It will never end! CoRe is saying its OK, and you saying its not. And its all over the thread for christ sake!

Tomhah

16th June 2009, 22:29

@Deko, I feel this discussion is important for the future rules of the series. I'm just making my point and arguing the case against bump drafting.

Did you read my post? :P

This is too silly :P But I really do care about it, and Im giving my opinion. And I do counter-attack when I feel its needed :P But I dont feel I insulted anyone though. :)

PMD9409

16th June 2009, 22:30

It wasn't meant as an insult, just a demonstration as to what happens when it goes wrong. Anyway, you were calling me retarded before I even had the idea for a video in my little brain.

You're right, this series did show bump drafting as a viable strategy; but that still doesn't make it right or realistic, in my opinion. It's not a safe way around anyone: it's a farce because it takes next to no skill. I'd much rather see someone draft and then pull out of the draft and attempt to pass as opposed to following a train of cars past an driver who is all alone.

And now 4 posts have been made since I started writing this one. Let me make this clear: my video was really just a satircal look at bump drafting and wasn't intended to offend. I'm passionate (and have been for many years) about touring car racing so I'm going to fight its corner whenever something comes along to bring it into disrepute.

I never originally called anyone retarded, I was referring to the retarded comments of "Bumping is a part of touring cars, but not on the straights".

Ok, so it shows no skill to hold the throttle down and bump someone, but it does take brains.

BTW, lets make this series more realistic. Lets have mandatory downforce, only one tire compound, and all cars FWD!

Tomhah

16th June 2009, 22:36

and race at real tracks. Oh wait, LFS doesnt have that. Real cars then, oh no, we dont have that neither :P

boothy

16th June 2009, 22:37

BTW, lets make this series more realistic. Lets have mandatory downforce, only one tire compound, and all cars FWD!

Finally, someone talking sense :tilt: FWD would be great (ie at least 75% FTS) - would make slides easier to control as well, a fixed rear wing and specified setup ranges, and would all be making the series more like the recently announced NGTC spec cars the BTCC announced (FWD, 2 litre, 300bhp turbo). Tyres - what compound were you thinking of?

Mp3 Astra

16th June 2009, 22:38

Well, it certainly was an interesting debate. I'm glad lots of opinions were expressed so the iCON guys can see what the drivers think about the issue. Same time tomorrow? Tomorrow's subject: the PIT maneuvre.

jwardy

16th June 2009, 22:39

sure :)

Tomhah

16th June 2009, 22:40

Sure. Why not.

PMD9409

16th June 2009, 22:42

Finally, someone talking sense :tilt: FWD would be great (ie at least 75% FTS) - would make slides easier to control as well, a fixed rear wing and specified setup ranges, and would all be making the series more like the recently announced NGTC spec cars the BTCC announced (FWD, 2 litre, 300bhp turbo). Tyres - what compound were you thinking of?

You do realise I was being 100% sarcastic right? :shrug:

What BTCC is doing with the FWD thing IMO is terrible. And the last thing I want to see is easier saves, LFS is too forgivable as it is. Fixed wings won't change much, because after races when some drivers talk about their setup, 80% of the time the downforce settings are already the same.

Maybe the tire compound idea wasn't full sarcasm. :razz: Of course I would look at making it more difficult for drivers, so I would say R2s only.

EDIT: I call for a iTCC Season 2 Discussion lol. By the time we agree it will be 2010 :razz:.

Mp3 Astra

16th June 2009, 22:43

I'm obviously for the pit maneuvre, so it'll make an interesting discussion.

Gil07

16th June 2009, 22:44

Yes, indeed. It's better than bumping in corners...

(insert massively huge safety wink here :razz:)

PMD9409

16th June 2009, 22:50

I'm obviously for the pit maneuvre, so it'll make an interesting discussion.

Oh it's on now! :razz:

Tomhah

16th June 2009, 22:52

This is a weird thread :D:feedtroll

Kid222

16th June 2009, 23:12

To add my few into this thread... i saw myself lot of times in Passo's video and that reminded me this whole thing again. When i was in the race, i was staring with open mouth into my mirrors at cars closing faster than rocket propelled snail. Though i joined that fun later few times, i felt like something is wrong and yes, i think this kind of action should remain for oval racing, not on regular tracks. Lot of damage can be done either by just helping your teammate or bumping to/into unlucky stranger, who hasn't any f*cking idea, what the hell is going on, or just by (as said before) destroying a hardly built gap between you and some other car.
It's up to admins, how the rules will stand for next season, but i hope, they will ban this part.

Joe_Keaveney

17th June 2009, 07:38

This entire bumpdrafting arguing is getting completely silly. Seriously, going to the level of trolling/personal attacks ? This is absolutley stupid. Anyone doing any attacks or anything of that nature is by default, excluded from the dsicussion. Make your points without cheap shots or calling people names, that's just completely childish. This behavior is NOT what you want in public for a series that has a rather high public profile. This is NOT good for the reputation.

So, calm down, get over it, it happened. Discuss why or why it shouldn't be allowed for next season to your minds, but remember, it's the admins final call, and deal with that comes from them.

To be perfectly honest, some of the discussions seen here make me want to never take part in this series again if some people act like this. This does NOT reflect well.

dekojester

Well said, Deko. :thumb:

Thanks guys, for your honest opinions - but let's keep it to your opinions and stay away from personal attacks on someone with a different viewpoint.

I actually think a healthy debate on our rules is good for the iTCC - it shows how passionate we all are about our racing and it helps to inform the admins about where the racers want to see the series go. But let's keep the comments civil and polite, please :thumbsup:

Rudy van Buren

17th June 2009, 09:00

hyntty

17th June 2009, 15:39

FWD would be great

No.

Ok, so it shows no skill to hold the throttle down and bump someone, but it does take brains.

BTW, lets make this series more realistic. Lets have mandatory downforce, only one tire compound, and all cars FWD!

a) Howcome you smartasses haven't thought of bumpdrafting in qualifying?

b) How would fixed wings help?

This entire bumpdrafting arguing is getting completely silly.

No it isn't.

The problem in this debate is that the ones for BD haven't actually got any better point than being able to do so by LFS. That means that inevitably the only way for them to get their message heard is to repeat it as many times as possible. That annoys the guys against it and a flamewar begins.

I do not especially care to make anyone angry by insulting dear religion Bumpdrafting. Neither do I claim that it somehow differs from gaining advantage by drafting normally (even though it in reality might be true) or gaining in any other way. However I would like to emphasize that this series is supposed to be like an European Touring car series where this action does not happen, and that in reality it would not be even possible to do so.

This is a weird thread :D:feedtroll

Plus one.

Imo make it like it is atm then in WTCC, give us 2 cars with a fwd and a rwd.
fwd is boring anyway.. :shy:

Eh? There's 3 cars in wtcc? Would we then get a UF1 to pose as the diesel?

Rudy van Buren

17th June 2009, 16:12

Eh? There's 3 cars in wtcc? Would we then get a UF1 to pose as the diesel?

Eh? most of your post is good but now you go to far :razz:

yea oke 3 cars in wtcc, good guy if you get the fxr xrr and fzr equal though :tilt:

BigTime

17th June 2009, 19:37

Originally Posted by dekojester http://www.lfsforum.net/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1188094#post1188094)
This entire bumpdrafting arguing is getting completely silly.It it silly.

It's the fact that the iTCC touring car format encourages bumping, (according to what the broadcasters said all year) yet we are all sitting here arguing about people bumping, in a controlled manner.

God forbid we talk about all the low racing standards in the series, the ballast issues, or the uncontrolled bumping (and crashing) than was literally all over the series at the end of the season? Thanks to Michael, we have a community wide debate, that is bringing in a bunch of opinions that quite frankly shouldn't be taken into account. Hell, I've spent more time in the movie thread telling a cruise driver the flaws in his statements, than I have giving input to what could make this series better. This should have been discussed with the iTCC drivers and admins, not Bob the cruise driver.

Simply put, bump drafting is a part of racing. When you remove that ability, you are in someway taking the driver out of the sport. As I said earlier, I encourage bump drafting because it's a part of racing. You didn't hear me complaining when Rudy bump drafted past me, and went from 6th to 3rd in the last lap of one of our BL1 races... That's because everyone can do it. So please, let's not turn iTCC into F1.

pipa

17th June 2009, 22:53

My name aint bob and sometimes i get lost in racing servers too.

PMD9409

18th June 2009, 00:22

a) Howcome you smartasses haven't thought of bumpdrafting in qualifying?

b) How would fixed wings help?

A) We did, but the word sportsmanship is very important to us, so we saw a "fastest lap with help" as being unfair. Which it is.

B) It wouldn't, read more often, notice the sarcasm.

yea oke 3 cars in wtcc, good guy if you get the fxr xrr and fzr equal though :tilt:

I would love a RWD more than anyone in this world, but I don't want to have another IGTC/MoE/Devs who don't know how to make cars equal (no offense but it's true).

hyntty

18th June 2009, 07:39

A) We did, but the word sportsmanship is very important to us, so we saw a "fastest lap with help" as being unfair. Which it is.

B) It wouldn't, read more often, notice the sarcasm.

a) How is getting help in qualifying different from getting help in the race? WTCC drivers do drafting in quali anyway for example. How can you possibly be sportsmanlike enough in qualifying not to use help from yarr mateys, but it's okay to do so in the race?

b) That wasn't my point. What series that has cars with wings have them fixed? Previously you talked about BTCC new regs sucking arse so I presumed you ment that going towards real life would be crap.

I would love a RWD more than anyone in this world, but I don't want to have another IGTC/MoE/Devs who don't know how to make cars equal (no offense but it's true).

Why not do a DTM like ballast among car classes? Say, for the more/most succesfull car model you'd give x kg or x % restriction after each race. And remove some from the model that performs worsely?

Rudy van Buren

18th June 2009, 08:19

well since gtr's have to much grip for the 'wtcc' level why not do some test with tweak and put slick's under the tbo cars :scratchch?

PMD9409

18th June 2009, 09:05

a) How is getting help in qualifying different from getting help in the race? WTCC drivers do drafting in quali anyway for example. How can you possibly be sportsmanlike enough in qualifying not to use help from yarr mateys, but it's okay to do so in the race?

b) That wasn't my point. What series that has cars with wings have them fixed? Previously you talked about BTCC new regs sucking arse so I presumed you ment that going towards real life would be crap.

Why not do a DTM like ballast among car classes? Say, for the more/most succesfull car model you'd give x kg or x % restriction after each race. And remove some from the model that performs worsely?

a) Because qualifying has to do with a single driver doing his/her fastest lap. In a race it is the first across the line. You don't have to be the fastest driver to win.

And if you want to go on a sportsmanlike rant, ask yourself: What is more unsportsmanlike? Cleanly bumpdrafting past someone, or divebombing someone and making contact? Clean passes seems hard to do in this series because the tracks were big and fast (even FE3R and SO4R), and the cars grip so much that you are nearly flatout in many places (WE1R, AS3, KY2R).

b) Read my post! I never said fixed wings were good! I even said my post was sarcastic. That "realism" aspect in this series would be either too difficult (to balance, if different cars) or it would just get too complex(somehow) , and confuse drivers and viewers.

I love a high realism factor in sim-racing, after all, that is what it's all about. But sometimes going too far throws out either the fun factor, or it shows the flaws of the sim.

On a side note: Looking back on the series, one of its best rounds (IMO) was Blackwood. The racing there was close, but also you had the right "speed" in which you could make clean passes. And don't forget the greatest move there, which was Rudy's bumpdraft from 6th to 3rd on the last lap, passing Nolan, which changed up the points quite a bit.