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View Full Version : Blue Flags & Overtaking: A discussion


Gunn
17th March 2006, 04:39
Let’s take a look at some of the problems associated with blue flag rules interpretation in the real racing world. These issues also exist in multiplayer sim racing and are therefore relevant to LFS racers.

Before we continue, it is necessary to understand that different race series and classes around the world may use different rules to each other. It is important to be aware that any information or rules you see published either in print or online may not be universally applicable to all forms of motor racing.
Some uniform rules, however, can be applied to most race situations.
Much of the world’s motor racing regulations are governed by a body called the FIA (Federation Internationale De L’Automobile) and FIA events include the likes of Formula One Racing and many of your other favourite and famous race series too. The FIA is known as a governing body but, as stated above, not all types of racing are governed by the same body or rules, indeed not all racing falls under the FIA’s umbrella of rules, regulations and standards.
In a minute we will take a look at the FIA blue flag and overtaking rules and see why there are often conflicting ways of interpreting or applying them on the race track. My goal here is to hopefully shed enough light on the subject so that racers can participate in a quality discussion about blue flag rules and their application to sim racing. Perhaps our community can reach a consensus on this issue that may lead to cleaner racing with less confusion about what to do when presented with a blue flag?

Now let’s examine some of the main gripes that drivers and race officials have applying current blue flag rules.

- Many drivers do not notice the blue flag or they take too long to respond to it.
This slows down the faster drivers who have a legitimate right to an easy overtake. Races can be won or lost due to the behaviour of back markers (cars that have been, or are about to become, lapped cars).

- Dangerous incidents may occur due to the manner in which a driver yields to the overtaking car.
In racing, rapid changes of direction, erratic driving or suddenly changing your line are all to be avoided for reasons of safety and fair play. Unpredictable driving is dangerous to other racers, especially at high speeds when there is little time to react.

- Some blue flag rules are difficult to apply in some situations and may appear to contradict certain overtaking rules.
Confusion about the wording of rules and their apparent application makes the adoption of a consensus difficult. In some situations a literal interpretation of the rules seems illogical or simply unsafe in application. Furthermore, ten-second stop & go penalties and black flags are not popular among fans or teams and tend to generally detract from a positive motorsport experience. By the same token, too casual an application of the rules may disadvantage the overtaking car even to the point of losing the race or championship.

Listed below is an example of blue flag rules taken from the FIA’s International Sporting Code & Appendices for 2006.

Light Blue flag:
This should normally be waved, as an indication to a driver that
he is about to be overtaken. It has different meanings during
practice and the race.

At all times :
- A stationary flag should be displayed to a driver leaving the pits
if traffic is approaching on the track.

During practice :
-Give way to a faster car which is about to overtake you.

During the race :
- The flag should normally be shown to a car about to be
lapped and, when shown, the driver concerned must allow the
following car to pass at the earliest opportunity.

I’ll briefly deal with the basic stuff here first:
- As a driver, if you are presented with a blue flag it means a faster car is approaching you from behind. So that is the main thing to remember, the blue flag is an indicator that a faster car is approaching. This is the main job of any blue flag. It is a warning, not a penalty.

- If you are leaving the pits and a car on the track is approaching the area near where you will exit the pits a stationary blue flag will be shown at the pit exit. This is a basic blue flag warning to let the driver leaving the pits know that caution is required and technically the approaching car should be yielded to. This is a rarely-penalised offense, however if an accident ensues or the approaching car lodges a protest to the actions of the car that is under the blue flag then a penalty is likely to be the result.
* In modern pits the blue flag is often replaced by a blue light which has exactly the same meaning as the flag.

Now that we have a basic understanding of what a blue flag is for we can explore different situations where it is used:

- A waved blue flag means more than just the basic definition tells us. When a blue flag is waved the driver who it is meant for must take action. Sometimes a blue flag is not waved (it is just held stationary) although it is a rare sight these days it serves as a warning of a faster car approaching. I can’t find any special rules about the stationary blue flag; its meaning seems only to be loosely implied. It seems to be a safety provision more than a disciplinary tool and I mention it here only to contrast with the meaning of a waved blue flag.

- So a waved blue means that you must take action, but what type of action should you take? The FIA has different rules for practice and racing. Here is where the confusion begins.
During practice the driver must “give way” when shown a waved blue flag but in the race the instruction changes to “…must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity”. Seemingly, the FIA doesn’t feel that a driver must “give way” in a race when shown a blue flag. What do they mean by “giving way”? Below is an excerpt from the code of driving conduct which can be found in appendix L of the sporting code, notice the reference to giving way.

2. Overtaking
a) during a race, a car alone on the track may use the full width of
the said track. However, as soon as it is caught up on a straight
by a car which is either temporarily or constantly faster, the driver
shall give the other vehicle the right of way by pulling over to one
side in order to allow for passing on the other side.

So if that is the FIA’s idea of giving way then one may assume that in a race situation this is not what a driver is required to do when presented with a blue flag. Instead a driver “must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity”. But, according to the above overtaking rule, the correct way to be overtaken is to move to the other side of the track and let the pursuing car through. Who decides what is “the earliest opportunity” to allow the faster car to pass? Why then doesn’t the blue flag rule just say “give way to the following car during race or practice”? Another curious point we find in this rule is the mention of the car that catches up “on a straight” as being eligible for right of way. If a car catches you in a twisting part of the track or a corner this rule seemingly does not apply. This rule then seems to apply to cars traveling on a straight.
Perhaps the reason for the wording of such rules is because the flagged car is in the middle of a battle for position with another car, both of these back-markers must obey the blue flag but they wouldn’t want to throw away their current battle by moving immediately to the other side of the track. Just because you are placed tenth and eleventh in the race doesn’t mean your race is less important to you and your team than the faster cars' race is to them.
Another reason may be because it would be dangerous to move over to the other side of the track at that point in time. A loose rule allows for some justified flexibility here. Many rules in racing are a bit open-ended to allow for flexibility in interpretation to cover these special incidents.
It is the flagged driver(s) who decides when the acceptable time to yield has arrived, sometimes the pursuing drivers (or the race stewards) won’t agree with his timing. Sometimes disagreement arises from the manner in which the flagged drive responds. Let’s now look in more detail at overtaking safety:

2. Overtaking
a) during a race, a car alone on the track may use the full width of
the said track. However, as soon as it is caught up on a straight
by a car which is either temporarily or constantly faster, the driver
shall give the other vehicle the right of way by pulling over to one
side in order to allow for passing on the other side.
b) if the driver who has been caught does not seem to make full use
of his rear-view mirror the fl ag marshal(s) will give a warning by
waving the blue fl ag to indicate that another competitor wants to
overtake.
Any driver who does not take notice of the blue fl ag may be
penalised by the Sporting Stewards.
Systematic or repeated offences may result in the exclusion of
the offender from the race.
c) curves, as well as the approach and exit zones thereof, may be
negotiated by the drivers in any way they wish, within the limits
of the track. Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be
done either on the right or on the left.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as
premature changes of direction, more than one change of
direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the
outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction,
are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the
importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties ranging
from a fi ne to the exclusion from the race. The repetition of
dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in the exclusion
from the race.
d) any obstructive manoeuvre carried out by one or several
drivers, either having common interests or not, is prohibited.
The persistent driving abreast of several vehicles, as well as fanshaped
arrangement, is authorised only if there is not another car
trying to overtake. Otherwise the blue fl ag will be waved.
e) the penalty infl icted for ignoring the blue fl ag will also be applied
to the drivers who obstruct part of the track and shall be more
severe in the case of systematic obstruction, thus ranging from
a fi ne to the exclusion from the race. The same penalty shall be
applied to drivers who swing from one side of the track to the
other in order to prevent other competitors from overtaking.
f) the repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack
of control over the car (such as leaving the track) may entail the
exclusion of the drivers concerned.
g) the race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the race.

Now we can understand how blue flag rules and overtaking rules share common ground. Although there is an issue of fair play to consider for both the overtaker and the overtakee, the main issue, as far as rules go, is one of safety.

I suggest that there are two main types of drivers when it comes to lapping back-markers or slower cars and this stands for real racing as well as sim racing.
- One type of driver expects the slower car to move over immediately and leave the normal racing line clear for his approach.
- The second type of driver expects the slower car to stay close to the normal racing line, avoiding any sudden moves and allowing a safe and easy pass to occur. Able to predict where the flagged car will be allows the driver to overtake safely and without incident.

I suggest that there are three main types of drivers when it comes to being lapped by a faster car.
- One type of driver judges the current situation in relation to safety, his own race position and battle, with consideration for the faster driver in accordance with the rules. He will allow the following car(s) a safe and easy pass at the first reasonable opportunity.
- The second type of driver understands that a faster car is about to lap him but is not prepared to disadvantage himself too much in his current battle or position and makes little attempt to make a pass easy. He knows the faster car will overtake him eventually so why lose any time by slowing down for a car which is clearly faster? This type of driver will still yield to the faster car but when only at a time that serves their own needs best.
- The third type of driver is one who lacks understanding of the proper way to respond to a blue flag situation and may hesitate or rush at a critical moment to the detriment of all cars nearby.

Sometimes drivers just don’t realize the blue flag is for them, many drivers from rookies to world champions alike have made this error.

Summarising the above rules:
- “Giving way” to a lapping car seems to mean moving over to one side and allowing the car to pass on the other. In a practice session you should give way to faster car immediately.
- “Allowing a car to pass” seems to mean something different from giving way though it is not made clear how this is to be achieved exactly.
- The rules governing overtaking seem to suggest predictable and non-erratic behaviour from all parties involved, especially from the car which is being overtaken. Presumably yielding to a blue flag under race conditions should be performed within the boundaries of these rules.
- There appears to be some contradiction or lack of clarity between what is acceptable and what is legal under the blue flag rules. The main debate focuses on the difference between giving way and simply yielding; allowing the faster car to pass easily. Giving way has been the cause of real life accidents when the overtaking car did not expect the flagged car to move over into its path. Many drivers prefer the flagged car to hold its line and simply reduce speed to allow a clean and fast pass to occur. Other drivers see the blue flag as their right to a clear track, indeed it is understandable that the two schools of thought exist given the way the blue flag and overtaking rules may be read.
- Taken literally the rules demand that (on a straight) any car should yield to any faster car, regardless of race position, yet we know this is not how things really work. The dynamic nature of a motor race demands some flexibility in the way rules are applied and therefore some rules are open-ended or muddy in their detail.
- Without human management (race stewards and officials fill this role) rules alone can not govern or manage a motor race. For race simulators this means that the creation of a fully automatic and fully comprehensive flag and penalty system managed by software is only a remote possibility. There are going to be many situations where a decision needs to be made in a more flexible manner, requiring several variables to be considered. Even in real life this process is far from perfect.
Some latitude is required by sim racers if they are to be satisfied with the quality of racing that a race sim may provide when software is making the decisions relating to penalties and warnings.

As I stated in the early parts of this presentation, the FIA rules don’t govern all of motorsport. You can find plenty of non-FIA events that use similar rules with varying degrees of interpretation. You may even come across some rules that seem very stupid indeed. The thing to remember is that no single body of rules is perfect, rules are put in place for safety and fairness and it is difficult to create a perfect proportion of each for a given genre of motor racing. As drivers we all want a system that seems to offer a chance of competing fairly and safely. But more importantly we want a system that reduces unpredictable driving behaviour, whether it is due to poor interpretation or poorly-written rules. To win a race first you must finish it.

How can I help?
If you are shown the blue flag it is important to make a good judgment about how to react and when to react. Your own race position is important to you of course, and you will want to minimize the disadvantage that often accompanies yielding to a faster driver, but the rules state that the faster driver must be allowed to pass. Find an early opportunity to allow him to go by, don’t put yourself out of the race though, just make it easy for him to continue on his way.

If you are about to lap a slow car or back-marker, try to drive smoothly and remain calm. If he is engaged in a battle with another car or is negotiating a difficult part of the circuit, don’t expect him to leap out of your way immediately, he has a race on his hands too. In LFS, repeatedly spamming: “Blue flag move over now!!! blue flag move over now!!!” is likely to have the opposite effect than you desire.

If you are the organiser of events or racing clubs please consider writing a code of conduct and some clarifying rules to ensure predictable and uniform behaviour in relation to blue flags and overtaking. Educate and inform your members so that your racing is a clean and high quality experience with minimal incidents and conflict.

Thank you for taking the time to read this!
I have only presented some basic information here and in no way is this meant to be a detailed expose on race rules. I am merely inviting discussion about some of the more confusing aspects of a common race rule, and one that affects sim racers worldwide. If you are interested in digging deeper into this topic I have supplied some links below for your convenience. When interpreting rules it is wise to keep an open mind and consider all situations where the rule may apply. Some rules are very specific and clear. Other rules are trying to cover many situations or variables and can suffer from being too general to be applied literally to a given situation or incident.

My aim in this topic is not to spark an argument about who prefers to take whatever stance, but rather to promote discussion and understanding so that when race time comes around more racers are conforming to a workable rule-set that is both as safe and fair as possible within the limits of software controlled warnings and penalties of a race sim. At this point in time I believe that truly realistic and comprehensive race management for online racing events can only be achieved with some human intervention. Literal interpretation of warnings or penalties can sometimes be inadequate in such a dynamic and complex event as a motor race.

Information quoted for this presentation can be found here:
INTERNATIONAL SPORTING CODE AND APPENDICES - 2006 Regulations (http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/sportcoderegs.html)

An example of applying CAMS and FIA regulations to Australian Saloon Car Racing.
Tascco Track Control & Flag Signalling (http://www.tascco.com.au/downloads/Driving%20Conduct.pdf) (Based on CAMS manual)

An example of NASCAR flag rules for comparison. Check out the blue flag (with orange stripe) rule to see an alternative application to the FIA one.
Flags (http://nascar.about.com/od/nascar101/ss/flagsofnascar.htm) In Nascar Racing

nfsjunkie91
17th March 2006, 04:55
Wow, that's a good err essay there, I find it interesting, and informative. For the record, I move over to one side and honk the horn twice whenever I get the blue flag.

B2B@300
17th March 2006, 08:10
Great post Gunn :thumb:

My interpretation has always been if I am lapping slower lapped traffic they should hold their line and allow me too pass by slowing on a straight section of track just enough for a safe pass, but at the same time avoid unexpected or erratic behaviour, if that stops me getting a new pb because I have to slow a little in the corner it doesn't bother me :D. If they are on the same lap as me I generally am dissapointed if they don't defend their position (by that I don't mean weaving from side to side though :x)

The driver expects the slower car to stay close to the normal racing line, avoiding any sudden moves and allowing a safe and easy pass to occur. Able to predict where the flagged car will be allows the driver to overtake safely and without incident.

If I am being lapped then I try and allow a clean overtake by staying on my normal racing line but slowing alittle on a straight section (not a corner). If on the other hand I have joined part way through a race I give way well before the faster car is near me by pulling off the track or if it is an unfamiliar track/car combo will even pit (shift + S) well before the leaders are near me and will generally try stay on the opposite side of the curcuit in such circustances where I am warming up or learning the car/track combo :tilt:.

One type of driver judges the current situation in relation to safety, his own race position and battle, with consideration for the faster driver in accordance with the rules. He will allow the following car(s) a safe and easy pass at the first reasonable opportunity.

Vykos69
17th March 2006, 08:15
You are lapped, so:

- stay on your line on straight, dont brake or lift as long as other is behind you. Why? Cause this way your behaviour is most predictable, and lapping driver can adjust to that.
- take outside line in turns and let faster pass inside easily.

DONT CHANGE YOUR LINE ON STRAIGHT IF OTHER CAR APPROACHES YOU FROM BEHIND!! THIS WILL CAUSE A MESS!

Gunn, I appreciate your c&p effort ;) But it is actually really really simple. ;)

Funnybear
17th March 2006, 09:19
Excellent input Gunn, but my view differs slightly. If your are on a closed server in a proper 'simulation' of race conditions then yes, all your above points stand and are applicable if agreed on by the racers. If I was racing with them on these servers I would be uber respectful of these rules.

But.

On open servers it very often comes down to more urbane reasoning. If I know I am faster than the blue flag'ee behind me then it's quite possible that I would not yield knowing full well I am a few seconds faster than him on any given lap. (E.G whilst exiting on a pit straight or recovering from an off or a bad corner). Not to say I will not yield. I am reasonable aware about who's fast and who's racing in any given race. I am definatly not one to hold up a good race just thinking with my ego rather than with my dignity. On the flip side I can't get too imapatient when approaching backmarkers. I consider myself a seasoned and experianced racer (Not in everything, but I'm getting there.) If I am then I should be able to take into account the random actions of lesser drivers and approach them either with confidence or extreme caution. It is annoying on public servers when you get obstinance in letting you pass, but, hey it's a public server. Sometimes you just gotta deal with it . . .

Vain
17th March 2006, 09:40
I actually found it quite uninteresting. A very long read that says merely more than "use common sense".

Vain

Fetzo
17th March 2006, 09:42
You are lapped, so:

- stay on your line on straight, dont brake or lift as long as other is behind you. Why? Cause this way your behaviour is most predictable, and lapping driver can adjust to that.
- take outside line in turns and let faster pass inside easily.

DONT CHANGE YOUR LINE ON STRAIGHT IF OTHER CAR APPROACHES YOU FROM BEHIND!! THIS WILL CAUSE A MESS!

Gunn, I appreciate your c&p effort ;) But it is actually really really simple. ;)


*agree*

i just want to mention that the most common situation with blue flags on a public server is the one that the "lapped" driver joined the race after it started some time ago.

imho, the driver who has joined the race later has no right to hinder the leading drivers AT ALL. he has to be very careful and has to take evasive actions even before the field is approaching.

the driver normally has no right to be on track anyway. so he has to
'disappear' when participating racers show up behind him.

Tick
17th March 2006, 09:44
Understanding what a blue flag means and how to react is great info! Thank you.

What I can only assume is how the blue is activated durring an online race. I have been racing along and have been given the blue flag, look in my mirror and see a car appear. It gets closer, I move to one side showing my intention and lift to allow a pass. Other times I am given a blue flag and see nothing in my mirror. Usualy this happens after a bad line in a corner. Adding both of these up I can safely assume that the blue flag is raised by the server based on distance + speed.

Doing the math (to early in the am) Im traveling at 130 mph and the car behind me is going 165, I would see the blue flag sooner than if I was going 160 and the car behind me is going 165. I have yet to read anywhere, even the manual how it actualy works! It might help if the flags were different shades depending on how close the car was to your car. Like light blue for 300 meters and bark blue for 100 meters.


Tick

Vain
17th March 2006, 09:58
It's easy. When you are one lap down to the car behind you, you get a blue flag when the car has a specific distance to you. No math involved. The car behind you can be 120mph slower than you and you will still get a blue flag (obviously, until you pull away and the distance gets too big).

Vain

sshhaabb
17th March 2006, 10:34
An excellant discussion.

garph
17th March 2006, 11:05
I tend to move offline and slow down, not suddenly jump to the left or right when the car is right behind but do it so they can see I'm getting out the way.

If I'm on a straight I think I'll just stay on the racing line and slow a little, that seems the way to go from what people have said.

Gentlefoot
17th March 2006, 11:53
The only time I've found myself involved in discussions about blue flagsis when I have been competing in a long race i.e. 30 laps or more, and had some incident early on causing me to be lapped. I then pick up the pace and find myself catching drivers who are a lap ahead of me. If I pass them I am instantly blue flagged, even though I'm lapping say 1 second a lap faster. Even if I get clear straight away, I've had drivers moaning about this.

Or, I get passed by a faster driver who then proceeds to make a mistake and I re pass them. The faster driver then complains because he has to pass me once more.

What do you do in these situations? Should you just follow the slower driver round until the end of the race? I would rather disconnect TBH. If a faster driver passes u then loses it on the next corner, should u wait for them to recover and not pass? I would say not. I will repass and then let the driver who made a mistake pass me again.


Also, I remember in the early days when I was much slower, if I was caught by a fast driver in the middle of a fast chicane I cannot move over to let them pass as there is only one line through these types of sections. I would then hold off on the accelerator to let them past on exit. But I would still get complaints.

I don't believe blue flag means "get out of the way , even if it means driving off the track". I'm a bit faster now and the tables are turned but I still believe even the slowest drivers have as much right to use the track as the fast ones. I wouldn't expect someone to drive off the track to get out of my way.

danowat
17th March 2006, 12:10
Just for the record, I think anyone that spams "BLUE FLAG, BLUE FLAG, MOVE OUT THE WAY" is a complete tool.

Dan,

Vain
17th March 2006, 12:13
In real life the blue flag is only shown when a faster car is coming up from behind. So no matter the laps, it's about who is faster and who not. And you're definitely faster, so you don't get a blue flag. In real life.
In LFS the blueflag is badly done and in such a situation there is no need to obey it. Stick with the FIA.

Vain

thd
17th March 2006, 12:18
You are lapped, so:

- stay on your line on straight, dont brake or lift as long as other is behind you. Why? Cause this way your behaviour is most predictable, and lapping driver can adjust to that.
- take outside line in turns and let faster pass inside easily.

DONT CHANGE YOUR LINE ON STRAIGHT IF OTHER CAR APPROACHES YOU FROM BEHIND!! THIS WILL CAUSE A MESS!

Gunn, I appreciate your c&p effort ;) But it is actually really really simple. ;)

:thumbsup:

Keep it simple :x

Funnybear
17th March 2006, 12:24
The only time I've found myself involved in discussions about blue flagsis when I have been competing in a long race i.e. 30 laps or more, and had some incident early on causing me to be lapped. I then pick up the pace and find myself catching drivers who are a lap ahead of me. If I pass them I am instantly blue flagged, even though I'm lapping say 1 second a lap faster. Even if I get clear straight away, I've had drivers moaning about this.

Or, I get passed by a faster driver who then proceeds to make a mistake and I re pass them. The faster driver then complains because he has to pass me once more.

What do you do in these situations? Should you just follow the slower driver round until the end of the race? I would rather disconnect TBH. If a faster driver passes u then loses it on the next corner, should u wait for them to recover and not pass? I would say not. I will repass and then let the driver who made a mistake pass me again.


Also, I remember in the early days when I was much slower, if I was caught by a fast driver in the middle of a fast chicane I cannot move over to let them pass as there is only one line through these types of sections. I would then hold off on the accelerator to let them past on exit. But I would still get complaints.

I don't believe blue flag means "get out of the way , even if it means driving off the track". I'm a bit faster now and the tables are turned but I still believe even the slowest drivers have as much right to use the track as the fast ones. I wouldn't expect someone to drive off the track to get out of my way.

You are also racing, friend. If the driver goes off, or is slower than you. That's their beef. Not yours. If you are driving consideratly and competativly then they really can't argue too much.

Gunn
17th March 2006, 12:35
Thanks for all of your input guys, it's excellent participation. I haven't presented my own opinion here really, I've just highlighted why and where blue flag arguments and conflicts begin. I hope I have given enough resources and facts so that people can understand the situation with popular rules and interpretations. Despite the common sense involved in potentially proper bahaviour, the rules don't allow for just one interpretation. Ask a hundred people who know the rules and you'll get differing interpretations of what is both legal and fair. As a racer I prefer the car in front to hold it's line and just ease up enough to allow a clean pass. No nasty surprises that way and the behaviour is predictable.

Good sportsmanship and common sense should always prevail in motorsport, but as soon as an official protest is lodged people always go reaching for the rule book. In this particular case it is best to be informed. At least I think so. :)

What do you do in these situations? Should you just follow the slower driver round until the end of the race? I would rather disconnect TBH. If a faster driver passes u then loses it on the next corner, should u wait for them to recover and not pass? I would say not. I will repass and then let the driver who made a mistake pass me again.In real life you may be shown a stationary blue flag to warn you of the car behind. Only a waved blue would mean you should yield. It is up to the race officials to know their stuff in this regard and present the correct flag. Of course the best course of action for any blue flag is to drive away into the distance. Unfortunately this is often easier said than done. :p

shim
17th March 2006, 12:42
if im gettin lapped, i try and stay well clear of the clean racing line to give the quicker follower as much room as possible so he/she has more than enough room to do any overtaking manuver as they feel like..

Vain
17th March 2006, 12:45
I think what helps a lot is to spare two buttons to the indicators. I have a switch-key on my MOMO Racing and switch+paddles enables/disables the indicators. So when someone comes up from behind in a corner I set the indicator f.e. left and stick with the left side of the road after the corner. That way the one behind me can plan his line early and neither me nor him loose much time.
This also works pretty well with pitting... Far better than "PIT IN!".

Though of course I never get lapped. NEVER! :)

Vain

Hatemaker
17th March 2006, 13:05
- The second type of driver expects the slower car to stay close to the normal racing line, avoiding any sudden moves and allowing a safe and easy pass to occur. Able to predict where the flagged car will be allows the driver to overtake safely and without incident.

- One type of driver judges the current situation in relation to safety, his own race position and battle, with consideration for the faster driver in accordance with the rules. He will allow the following car(s) a safe and easy pass at the first reasonable opportunity.


This is how I view the situation. It seems reasonable in my oppinion. If someone catches me in a chicane, however, it is dangerous to move far enough out of line to allow the faster car to pass, so upon the exit of the last corner, I would stay hugged to the inside, and allow him to keep the faster line out to pass. I've only run into a problem once with my understandings (from actually racing cars), but it was oly a minor accident caused by the faster car diving across the grass on the inside of the turn to try to overtake. While I say minor, our cars were barely damaged, but we were still out of our races, and our battles lost. :shrug: It was still a fun race however.

And good point about the indicators Vain. I like to use them to signify pitting as well.

Tick
17th March 2006, 13:13
Just for the record, I think anyone that spams "BLUE FLAG, BLUE FLAG, MOVE OUT THE WAY" is a complete tool.

Dan,

How do you spam BLUE FLAG. I thought it was an automatic occurance?
Tick

BlackEye
17th March 2006, 13:14
How do you spam BLUE FLAG. I thought it was an automatic occurance?
Tick

Press "T" and write: BLUE FLAG BLUE FLAG!!! :razz: :D

danowat
17th March 2006, 13:16
How do you spam BLUE FLAG. I thought it was an automatic occurance?
Tick
Certain "racers" have it typed into one of thier F keys, they think its big and clever to spam it whenever they come up behind someone.

Dan,

Tick
17th March 2006, 13:28
Press "T" and write: BLUE FLAG BLUE FLAG!!! :razz: :D

But of course.......... It was an honest question.

Besides using the f keys or the T function. It shows up in your normal view.

Posted after #23's reply

danowat
17th March 2006, 13:29
But of course.......... It was an honest question.

Besides using the f keys or the T function. It shows up in your normal view.

Your right, it does, but for some tools its not enough :pillepall

Dan,

tristancliffe
17th March 2006, 14:22
When I get blue flagged I try to let them past with the minimum loss of time for both of us. I won't just jam on the brakes and let him fly by, I'll wait until he's within passing distance and do something depending on the exact situation so we can both keep racing (not each other). I always however move offline, as the leader has, in my book, a right to the racing line over a backmarker.

One time in Vixen I was being lapped after a 1st lap disaster, and the guys in 1st and 2nd were very close, and I was catching someone for position. The leader drafted me, and I let him nip down the inside into the turn without a challenge. The guy in 2nd caught me as I was about to pass the guy in front of me.
I went down the inside of the last turn at Aston Club, the 2nd place (a Frenchman with dubious hotlapping history) guy tried to go in between us. I had the inside line round the corner, and he started hooting his horn. So, because he hooted his horn at me after doing a stupid attempt at lapping me, I decided to race him. I kept him alongside me down to T1, then braked as late as I could to keep him behind.

But being the obnoxious type he tried to turn in on me anyway, and spun. I was fine and drove off. Eventually he caught me again though, and this time he was much more sensible about lapping - he had dropped his whole 'I own the road and if you don't get out of my way I'll hax you' attitude. So I let him pass without a fight.

I know it was technically wrong, but this particular chap is not very nice, so I'm not very nice back. I din't wreck him - his own inability to lap safely led to his accident.

bbman
17th March 2006, 14:26
I actually found it quite uninteresting. A very long read that says merely more than "use common sense".

Vain
There are some that really need this explanation to start using common sense, believe me...

I was on a server recently, and I was the fastest by far there (doesn't happen to me very often :D)... Anyway, the other guys seemed to have a weird understanding of being lapped: When they saw you approaching (on the map), they let of the throttle and wait for you, just to stomp on throttle again just to either block the way (this particular driver obviously found that funny :pillepall) or to attempt to drive side-by-side with a much faster car... :shrug:

X-Ter
17th March 2006, 15:44
This is taken from the SCORE GT-Challenge rules. It has proven to work out fairly well so far.

About general overtaking:

§04 - Overtaking
§04A - Overtaking is the responsibility of the overtaking car. Pushing cars out of the way is not tolerated and if deemed deliberate, it will result in a lifetime ban from SCORE.
§04B - Overtaking during Yellow Flag is prohibited. If the Yellow Flag appears you must stay in line. Even if you're about to lap a slower opponent and even if you think it's safe to overtake.


About the blue flag:

§07 - Blue flags
The blue flag must be respected. Failure to respect the blue flag will result in one warning and if repeated, a ban. The blue flag does not mean you have to come to a complete stop. You should however let a lapping car by at the first available spot. Generally this is done by going wide in a turn and leave room on the inside, or keeping to one side of the track at straight's.


IMO it doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

nfsjunkie91
17th March 2006, 23:00
Press "T" and write: BLUE FLAG BLUE FLAG!!! :razz: :D

I was playing demo, and someone had ****BLUE FLAG GET THE F*CK OUT OF MY WAY**** and they kept on spamming it! Bah, they got vote-kicked.

filur
17th March 2006, 23:29
I suggest that there are two main types of drivers when it comes to lapping back-markers or slower cars and this stands for real racing as well as sim racing.
- One type of driver expects the slower car to move over immediately and leave the normal racing line clear for his approach.
- The second type of driver expects the slower car to stay close to the normal racing line, avoiding any sudden moves and allowing a safe and easy pass to occur. Able to predict where the flagged car will be allows the driver to overtake safely and without incident.
You missed me :)

I don't expect the car i'm about to lap to do anything at all, i'm not surprised if someone lets me pass, but i'm not surprised or really bothered if someone doesn't. If i'm given a blue flag, i'll ease off throttle on a good bit of road.

BBO@BSR
18th March 2006, 00:16
You are lapped, so:

- stay on your line on straight, dont brake or lift as long as other is behind you. Why? Cause this way your behaviour is most predictable, and lapping driver can adjust to that.
- take outside line in turns and let faster pass inside easily.

DONT CHANGE YOUR LINE ON STRAIGHT IF OTHER CAR APPROACHES YOU FROM BEHIND!! THIS WILL CAUSE A MESS!

Gunn, I appreciate your c&p effort ;) But it is actually really really simple. ;)

I totally agree. Actually really simple if everyone would do it like this :thumb: in LFS

mrodgers
18th March 2006, 00:59
About the "move over and let by" and "hold your line" debate... Here's my thoughts.

Normal race situation, I'm in the back and the leader's are catching up to me. I see "Blue Flag" staring at me in the middle of my screen. I will pay a little extra attention in my mirror in anticipation of the leader coming up behind me. When he does, I hold the racing line and wait to see his overtake move. When I see his move, then I will let up on the throttle to allow him by easily. You must remember, it is possible that the leader may want to use you to his advantage by getting a little bit of draft before making the pass. Therefore, even lifting at this point can be disastrous.

In LFS, blue flag only means someone is close behind you but ahead in position. It doesn't mean he is faster, just that he is a predetermined distance behind you. It may well be you are receiving the blue flag because you spun, touched the grass and are slow at the time, pitted, etc, but you can actually be faster than the one giving the blue flag. This is why you should just wait until they catch up and make a move to pass before easily letting them go. If you do happen to be faster, then you will outrun the blue flag situation after a few corners.

If I am the lead car and I give you the blue flag... I fully expect you to do the same and hold the normal racing line. When I make a move to go by, only then do I expect you to allow me an easy time by lifting the throttle. I have been in several NAL races where the guy in front of me was an orange dot on the map, but we were running the same times. I couldn't catch up any further to make a passing attempt and did not expect him to slow down because he saw "blue flag". I remember running for several laps at Westhill like this. He must have pitted and reentered up ahead of me as I came around.

In the situation that you join an already race in progress, then my thoughts are the same as B2B@300 and others in that you have absolutely no business being mixed in with any of the racers and interrupting the session. Sit on pit-road before entering and wait for them to pass by or pull off as soon as you see the blue flag to let them by. And by off, I mean OFF the racing surface. One or 2 cars you can pull way off the line, but if the entire pack is coming, just pull over off the track or shift-s back to the pits. You are not involved and have no business being on the track amongst a pack of racers. I usually always try to time my pit-road drive so that I will pull into a large gap between 2 separate packs of cars (I mean large gap as in they are not in the same section of track to be battling) or behind all the racers if they are all very close. Nothing drives me crazier than to be trying to catch the position in front of me and have someone who just joined zoom out between us causing me missed opportunities to make any headway to the guy in front of me. I yell at them and usually get "I didn't wreck you or mess you up!" Ah, yes you did, you interupted my trying to catch the guy in front and caused me to hold back so you don't wreck me.

filur
18th March 2006, 02:26
You must remember, it is possible that the leader may want to use you to his advantage by getting a little bit of draft before making the pass.

This, imho, isn't a good idea at all, for either the lapped car or the passing car to consider. Passing car should remember no two drivers treats a blue flag situation in the exact same way, and lapped car shouldn't be stressed, unless he's obviously blocking the pass. Both drivers should - imo - interfere as little as possible with each others race, staying as far away from each other as possible.

I'm thinking normal road circuits, oval might be different.

mr grady
18th March 2006, 08:17
Tristancliffe wrote: I know it was technically wrong, but this particular chap is not very nice, so I'm not very nice back. I din't wreck him - his own inability to lap safely led to his accident.

amen:thumb:

Dupson
18th March 2006, 10:56
Good post. Take note that every quite inteligent driver will come to conclusion "don not disturb those who are in race" pretty quick. So you ll get that rules even without reading it.

To everyone else use BAN :) ( sorry i just hate when ppl dont THINK ! )

B2B@300
18th March 2006, 11:04
sorry i just hate when ppl dont THINK !

And you have been a demo racer since early 2004 :razz: you must be going crazy by now then :pillepall :D :scratchch

SparkyDave
18th March 2006, 11:10
I think what helps a lot is to spare two buttons to the indicators. I have a switch-key on my MOMO Racing and switch+paddles enables/disables the indicators. So when someone comes up from behind in a corner I set the indicator f.e. left and stick with the left side of the road after the corner. That way the one behind me can plan his line early and neither me nor him loose much time.
This also works pretty well with pitting... Far better than "PIT IN!".


Vain

I fully agree with you Vain , and I also use this method (I have wired a gamepad to extra buttons on my momo red) . it clearly indicates to the following car/s what your intentions are and is more like real life IMO.

good dissusion here I think whoever said "common sense" was spot on the money also ;)

SD.

Dupson
18th March 2006, 14:26
And you have been a demo racer since early 2004 :razz: you must be going crazy by now then :pillepall :D :scratchch

i play from time to time - demo fully suits me. I dont mind racing on the same track. Not everybody is a hardcore racer try to understand that.

B2B@300
18th March 2006, 14:41
i play from time to time - demo fully suits me. I dont mind racing on the same track. Not everybody is a hardcore racer try to understand that.

I din't mean anything nasty :tilt: was just having a laugh :shy:

I race demo fairly often too, and was just making a humorous comment about the difference between S2 servers and demo servers i.e. the number of people that don't think :D when they join the server mid race and drive out amoungst the race leaders :x

That's not to say you can't find good racing on demo servers, you can :) but there is generally less people that just drive out on the track and mess up a perfectly good race in S2 servers :thumb: I guess my humour was just lost in translation :Looking_a sorry about that...

Dupson
18th March 2006, 14:56
np bud peace :) :thumb:

Calum
19th March 2006, 08:27
In my limited experience on the DEMO ( soon to become S2 ) license , then i have found that , if blue flagged before or during a a chicane or series of sharp , close turns , then i reall dont do anything different to be honest. I just concentrate loads on getting to the straight the fastest my car will take me round the track , then of course on the straight way , i just hold the line , and keep going as fast as i can.

I think this is quite a fair way ? surely in real world if a cars going to be blue flagged at the chicane , then they cant do much differently , just wait till the end of it.

:)

Calum

Renault F1 tm

bbman
19th March 2006, 10:40
When you're new to LfS, you surely don't got the experience to both keep your car on the track and let someone through... Granted, it is harder to let someone pass in a chicane... But you'd want to be lapped in a sharp turn, as you don't lose much speed and time when you go wide, letting the lapper through on the inside... ;) It's also a matter of experience to be able to estimate, where it would be a safe spot to let someone pass... :)

X-Ter
19th March 2006, 10:47
But that's a prefect example actually :)
If I see the blue flag first time shortly before the righthander into the chicane at Blackwood, I keep my line trought the chicane and then go as fast as I can on the straight. Chances are that the lapping car behind me will use me to slipstream down the straight, and by going just a little wide in the right hand turn, I let the faster car by without losing so much as a second.
That's how it should be done, but sadly, there are much to many impatient fast guys and much to many nervous new guys on the same tracks.

Becky Rose
19th March 2006, 11:42
The important thing I reckon is too often forgotten about being blue flagged is that it doesn't mean the other guy demands right of way over you. It means that it isn't worth racing the guy - let him go, it's not worth the lost time to race somebody on a different lap.

In terms of being blue flagged spelling it out clear and simple isn't the problem. It's not that people dont know how to move over/let a faster car through - the accidents happens because:

A) Sometimes, **** happens.
B) They don't want to let you through.

In case of B, i've never found any benefit to getting out of my pram about it. If a driver wont move over (this is more in karts than in LFS because i'm not that competetive in LFS yet) for me I just bide my time and get on with it - i've tried hand signals to marshalls and i've tried nerfing ... both of those result in a flag we dont see in LFS ... the black and white diagonal. (which is a caution, naughty naughty flag :) ).

Greboth
19th March 2006, 14:33
There are times when blue flags are had to obey straight away, an example of this when i first started playin iw as no where near competitve and at time i wuld b be cuaht mid corner as i was traveling slower and its hard to move then. But the easiest is to just go offline and not stay full throttle. You dont loose too mch time and its easy for the lappers to pass.

I still race demo, for the fact i reli like the xfg on blackwood and no one plays it on s2 really. In those servers if sumone spams blue flag im not wuite so the gentleman in letting them past, i wont fight i just wont make as easy as it can be.
Thr thign i hate is when people wont let you past at all, I udnerstand a complete noob not knowin what a blue falg is and blocking, but when people force u off the track.(usually in demo servers again) This normally results in me turning into the rear end of their car and spinnig them. I no its wrong to do so but when ive been blocked for too laps under blue falg i get annoyed. Also means they dont do it again lol.

Even though there are many rules on blue flag, its simple - Be a gentleman (or lady if im being politically correct) Dont ruin your race but do everything possible to get out the way.

Edit : Sorry about the spelling mistakes and typos, not got time to correct them now.

Dupson
19th March 2006, 20:48
In my limited experience on the DEMO ( soon to become S2 ) license , then i have found that , if blue flagged before or during a a chicane or series of sharp , close turns , then i reall dont do anything different to be honest. I just concentrate loads on getting to the straight the fastest my car will take me round the track , then of course on the straight way , i just hold the line , and keep going as fast as i can.

I think this is quite a fair way ? surely in real world if a cars going to be blue flagged at the chicane , then they cant do much differently , just wait till the end of it.

:)

Calum

Renault F1 tm

Sorry bud , but for me you re typical example od ar*ehole.

Explanation.

Race is in progress and two drivers have been having a close battle for 1st place since 4 laps. Then some prick gets on their way and literally "reall dont do anything different to be honest" and he ruines race of both of them cause usually one of them is blocked/bumped/crashed and second wins without any fight. You propably never had a good battle that lasts for all the race. So.. heres a recipe :

1.Go to a dark room
2. get some ear plugs
3. focus really hard
4 think about above situation "wouldnt be fair to get off the way and let them have fun??? would be??"

hope you ll get to proper conclusion .. or you re just another prick.. so a good person for a ban.

tristancliffe
19th March 2006, 21:10
Sorry bud , but for me you re typical example od ar*ehole.

Explanation.

Race is in progress and two drivers have been having a close battle for 1st place since 4 laps. Then some prick gets on their way and literally "reall dont do anything different to be honest" and he ruines race of both of them cause usually one of them is blocked/bumped/crashed and second wins without any fight. You propably never had a good battle that lasts for all the race. So.. heres a recipe :

1.Go to a dark room
2. get some ear plugs
3. focus really hard
4 think about above situation "wouldnt be fair to get off the way and let them have fun??? would be??"

hope you ll get to proper conclusion .. or you re just another prick.. so a good person for a ban.

Part of good close racing is knowing how to deal with lapping people, and how to avoid losing time or being hit. It is just as much the obligation of the leaders to avoid any accidents as it is for the lappee. Throwing your toys away because someone slower than you (and therefore almost certain less skilled or practiced) hit you by accident just means you have more to learn...
Blue flag is a hint to the slower car not a right for the faster car.

Oh, and calling someone an arsehole after a clear well argued post isn't going to win you friends. But I guess speaking against you fairly makes me an a-hole too.

Vain
19th March 2006, 21:17
In a narrow section the only sensable thing to do when being blue flagged is to drive on normally and try to leave the section as soon as possible to make space in a safer space. Exactly like Calum said.
So please, Dupson, rethink your interpretation of the blue flag.

Vain

Rtsbasic
19th March 2006, 21:31
I will handle the blue flag differently based on if I'm in a long race and being lapped, or I joined mid-race. If I join mid-race, I will if necessary pit, run myself off the track, anything to prevent interfering with the person(s) lapping me.

If I'm being lapped in a long race, I won't fight them for it. If they're a lot faster than me I will go wide at the first opportunity and let them by, if I'm close to their pace I will wait for them to be close enough to safely lap without me loosing much time, and without them loosing any. Blue flag to me does not mean screw your own race for them, it means let them by without a fight when the time comes. In part of the track - 1st chicane at BL GP for instance, you end up slowing them down more if you change your line halfway through, than if you just go through normal and let them by when its safe to.

Just my opinion, I agree it all comes down to common sense really.

Calum
19th March 2006, 21:35
Thanks to the two posts above for backing me up ,

Dupson , thats your opinion , i dont mind what you think , i really dont think / didnt mean to write my post in a way that makes you think i am the cause of this type of situation for every server , you write it as if you are telling the person who always gets in the way , perhaps i am one of the decent ones who you always pass without any problem ? :)

Like i say , in real racing , i am pretty sure just cause the leader or a lapping driver is coming past , like many have said in this post , doesnt make him special , sure , he is a concern to me now that i realise the blue flag , but hey , if he is truly faster , then he should be able to get past very well if i drive normally , and just keep my line during a straight. If he/she is not faster but still a lap ahead , then i like to think these drivers that have the skills , also have the sense , and just hold off for one or two seconds while i take the series of turns , or the chicane , or whatever it is. I am positive drivers are fine with being 1 or 2 seconds off of there lap time just for 1 lap , while they wait for me to get out of the way / onto a safe place to let them pass. Then for all the other laps , ( chances are they wont lap me again , or if they do , its doubtful it will be at another difficult place for me to let them past ) then they can continue getting those fast lap times.

If someone is trying to overtake in an obviously difficult place to pass safely , then i admit a little bit of respect from me to them dissapears , and i just concentrate on myself getting through , and driving normally.

If you are " fighting for 1st and 2nd by racing someone for 4 laps " , which i am sure you always are ;) , then maybe its the RIGHT decision to slow down just a touch while i get onto a safe place to move over. If the " cowboy " goes ahead and tries to overtake , and ends up wiping me and him/her out , then all the better for you , you end up being first because of decent racing sense ! and that is just as good as being fast , kudos to you.

See how it works ?

In fact , i would even go as far to say that , in SOME situations , if it is difficult for me to get out the way , and its a blue flag i am getting , and i end up getting wiped by some " ar*ehole " who thinks he owns the track just cause he is near the front of the race pack , then my opinion would be that it was NOT my fault , they should not have been trying to overtake in that difficult area.

Thanks again to the two posts for seeing the same sense as i do , but to all guys and gals , is it not just common sense reading these posts ?

:thumb:

Calum

Renault F1 tm

EDIT : looks like another person above just posted with the same sense i write about , ...

"1st chicane at BL GP for instance, you end up slowing them down more if you change your line halfway through, than if you just go through normal and let them by when its safe to."

thanks RtsBasic as well :)

Dupson
19th March 2006, 21:54
First
i wasnt talkin about drivers that are lapped say in .. 20 lap race and they started the race just like others - in this case i fully agree with you Tristan

Second
I belive you should use ur head during the race. When i drive and some faster driver is about to lap me i just give him as much space as he needs ( BUT not as much as it wont slow me down - as much as it wont SLOW DOWN THE FASTER DRIVER )
WHY ??
SIMPLE KINDNESS, a little favour for a faster driver - i loose NOTHING but those in race can get their race ruined. Simple as that. Im not sure what EXACTLY blue flag says. I just expect a little kindness thats all !!
I ll repeat - what a big deal is to make way for a faster driver ESPECIALLY when you re not participating in RACE??:pillepallHELL O !?

Thats what i do , thats what i expect.

And some other example i dont think you ll read about it anywhere in manuals or something like that.
First chicane on Blackwood track. I am first and about to leave that chicane but i make mistake and my car is in rolling over process , behind me are 11 cars that will crash me without doubts - i pressed that damn SHIFT + S ehhh ...

Was there flag "press Shift + S" any flag says about it ??
Next race guy in front of me repeated that - great ! fair play to him , fair play to every fair driving person.

Im not walking jesus , i make mistakes as well , i just want ppl to use their damn heads and to be a little gentelman on track.

Person that gets on track in the middle of the race and blocks others = arsehole - i wont change that opinion.

EDIT

Calum now you wrote that it isnt like that you dont care about others in race what I misunderstood before. I still cant fully agree with you but you made yourself clearer to me.

Dupson
19th March 2006, 21:59
I will handle the blue flag differently based on if I'm in a long race and being lapped, or I joined mid-race. If I join mid-race, I will if necessary pit, run myself off the track, anything to prevent interfering with the person(s) lapping me.


thats what im focused on. And thats what im talking about.

SparkyDave
19th March 2006, 22:02
I would rather be in a race with Calum than with Dupson ;)
I think it is common sense ,just some people have more than others :) lol .EDIT: just read your post above Dupson some respect, were not talking Wreakers just late joiners , with ya. however Calum never mentioned he didnt start the race same as everyone else just a section of a lap.

Lapping traffic is part of racing ,and expecting someone to just get off the track or pull over is really not going to win points with any of the more experienced drivers here .

If were talking BL1 1st chicain, I would take a normal line in and hug the lefthander to take a wide (left) line out, with my left signal on and allow the lapping car to gain a good exit (dosnt allways happen that way :)) but thats just me .

Bitching about or banning people because you dont like to use the brake pedal for traffic is somthing Ill never understand, we are all here to race (or drift :shrug: ugg) and have fun .

SD.

PS Hurry up and buy a S2 licence you Demo guys :D

Calum
19th March 2006, 22:16
Hello there all ,

Dupson i think you just slightly contradicted yourself from what you posted when i made my first reply earlier , but i did read your edited part at end of post and am happy to leave it as this , good luck in future races :)

Person that gets on track in the middle of the race and blocks others = arsehole - i wont change that opinion.

i never said i did this when joining in middle race , and have posted the exect opposite about blocking racers , yet you still insult me in first post , but oh well.

SparkyDave ,

hello there m8 , good to speak to you :)

If were talking BL1 1st chicain, I would take a normal line in and hug the lefthander to take a wide (left) line out, with my left signal on and allow the lapping car to gain a good exit (dosnt allways happen that way :)) but thats just me .

me too m8 ! thats the one to do

Bitching about or banning people because you dont like to use the brake pedal for traffic is somthing Ill never understand, we are all here to race (or drift :shrug: ugg) and have fun .

too true

PS Hurry up and buy a S2 licence Calum :D

cant wait m8 , i'll get one as soon as i can ( which shouldnt be long ) , i am very interested in the V8 and other karts / formula 1 / 2 / 3 type cars ( hence my name in LFS ( at bottom of post )) , so i use the GTI in DEMO at the moment , but once i get S2 license , i will be onto the formula 1 type cars immediatly.

I'll let you know when i get it m8 , i think i am a safe enough driver for you to show me round a few of the courses one weekend or evening , without me causing any kafuffle ;)

Thanks

Calum

Renault F1 tm

Dupson
19th March 2006, 22:23
i never said i did this when joining in middle race , and have posted the exect opposite about blocking racers , yet you still insult me in first post , but oh well.


sorry mate. I did it from misunderstanding and didnt call this off ( call this out??)

I apologize.

Calum
19th March 2006, 22:28
no its fine hehe ,

they bounce off me like a michelen dropped from 30ft m8 , it comes from baring hundreds of them most times on LFS DEMO servers lolol :schwitz: :D

a discussion is definely what this topic turned out to be hehe :) its good to read other drivers veiws on this subject , thank you for sharing yours , i will remember it when driving and maybe act differently when thinking upon it in a race :) :thumbsup:

Calum

Renault F1 tm

EDIT : for first sentance , i am talking about insults lol

Fonnybone
20th March 2006, 15:20
What makes me smile is comments like "use common sense/use your
head". Surely most here realise how that can be the cause of problems.
Common sense is very subjective and often implies that YOU are the one
using common sense and others must be stupid or something for not
thinking the same. I prefer the term gentlemen racer :D .

For the record, when i get a blue flag i usually do one of 2 things, move
to the side before a turn and use the horn to indicate i acknowledge the
blue flag THEN lift off a bit early to leave the corner to the faster car. If
the faster car is not close enough, i will usually try to yield right after the
turn by moving way off the racing line (read: staying on the inside after
the turn and slowing down a bit.). Of course, i prefer to let the guy pass
before the turn since then i can tuck in behind him and possibly draft him
a bit and use him to gain some ground myself without being in his way.
Between you and me, there's much more to be gained by following a faster
racer than by holding him back.

If we are on a straight, then i move off the race line (usually a function
of the upcoming turn) and lift off ONLY if he hasn't passed me before
the next turn. Then, once again, i'll usually tuck in behind him to draft him
a bit. Hey, i'm racing too after all.

bbman
20th March 2006, 19:13
Of course, i prefer to let the guy pass
before the turn since then i can tuck in behind him and possibly draft him
a bit and use him to gain some ground myself without being in his way.
Between you and me, there's much more to be gained by following a faster
racer than by holding him back.

If we are on a straight, then i move off the race line (usually a function
of the upcoming turn) and lift off ONLY if he hasn't passed me before
the next turn. Then, once again, i'll usually tuck in behind him to draft him
a bit. Hey, i'm racing too after all.
In a non-downforce car, am I right? Because with downforce, good luck even staying on the track... :D

I always try to let someone lap me by going wide through a turn... This way (if it's done right), you're just behind the faster driver at corner exit, allowing you to use the slipstream to gain a little advantage (don't lap back though, there's a reason why you got lapped ;))...

Gentlefoot
28th March 2006, 14:45
Sorry bud , but for me you re typical example od ar*ehole.

Explanation.

Race is in progress and two drivers have been having a close battle for 1st place since 4 laps. Then some prick gets on their way and literally "reall dont do anything different to be honest" and he ruines race of both of them cause usually one of them is blocked/bumped/crashed and second wins without any fight. You propably never had a good battle that lasts for all the race. So.. heres a recipe :

1.Go to a dark room
2. get some ear plugs
3. focus really hard
4 think about above situation "wouldnt be fair to get off the way and let them have fun??? would be??"

hope you ll get to proper conclusion .. or you re just another prick.. so a good person for a ban.

You really don't get it do you m8!

Gentlefoot
28th March 2006, 14:49
The important thing I reckon is too often forgotten about being blue flagged is that it doesn't mean the other guy demands right of way over you. It means that it isn't worth racing the guy - let him go, it's not worth the lost time to race somebody on a different lap.



But this is a very good point.

Sometimes I let faster drivers past even if they are on the same lap as me. It saves me losing loads of time trying to drive defensive lines and not being able to use all the track.

Vain
28th March 2006, 15:32
I view it like this:
If the one behind me is faster I should let him pass because I'll just loose time fighting him off. If he isn't faster I will get my position back anyway.

Vain

Hyperactive
28th March 2006, 16:12
I view it like this:
If the one behind me is faster I should let him pass because I'll just loose time fighting him off. If he isn't faster I will get my position back anyway.

Vain

I think everyone is entitled to fight for his position. It doesn't give me (or the person behind me) any rights to get pass as soon as possible. If you both can handle the situation and are aware of the situation I see no reason to let anyone pass without a fight.

Anyone who can drive safely (knows the track, is familiar with the car and knows the places) doesn't need to let pass anyone, imho.

Vain
28th March 2006, 16:29
When I actually see a possibility to gain a position by fighting back that car behind me I will surely do so. That way I gained the 3rd position in the 60 Lap ATC on Westhill Rev against much faster drivers :) . It wasn't that easy to drive 30 laps with someone (who's a second per lap faster) knawling on my bumper, but I do fight for my position when it makes sense. But I will also see when it doesn't make sense and wait for my time. It's just a matter of "Is it worth the risk?".

Ah, that ATC I spoke about was a nice race. Greets Dadge! :)

Vain

Jakg
28th March 2006, 16:46
one thing i find is that on some servers where i join mid-race, a driver is just behind me, but cannot get pst and as my tires warm up i start to pull away, of course, the person behind drafts back behind me, and as i pull away again they shout "Blue flag - move it n00b" or something similar, even though they cant catch me!

filur
28th March 2006, 18:40
one thing i find is that on some servers where i join mid-race, a driver is just behind me, but cannot get pst and as my tires warm up i start to pull away, of course, the person behind drafts back behind me, and as i pull away again they shout "Blue flag - move it n00b" or something similar, even though they cant catch me!

That's kind of missing the point i think, the driver behind you isn't supposed to have to race you to get past, of course, if you're obviously just leaving him behind right away it's silly to obey the flag since it will do neither of you any good.

If a driver is giving you a blue flag, and is close enough to be in your slipstream, it's past time to let him go already, imho.

mrodgers
29th March 2006, 03:04
If you mid-race join, you should not put yourself in a position to have someone directly behind you. You should STOP at the end of pitroad and wait for the racers to clear before pulling out. Then tag along behind not interfering with their race at all as you ARE NOT RACING. Respect needs to be given to those who were there at the start of the race and midjoiners need to stay clear and not interfere. That is why people put the no mid-race join up on the servers. It's very annoying to those who do respect the race in progress and wait, but it is neccessary due to those who think they can jump in and run with the pack.

If you can't wait freakin 5 or 10 minutes until another race starts, then sheesh, go offline and race by yourself. This running out on the track infront of the racers really gets to me.

jtr99
29th March 2006, 15:35
Perhaps we need a brown flag, which means that you have unfairly called someone an arsehole and need to apologize at the first opportunity. Good to see Dupson responding to the brown flag without too much delay there.

And Jak, I agree with Mike on this issue -- what the hell are you doing mid-race joining and then allowing yourself to be in a spot where someone is on your tail?

r4ptor
30th March 2006, 01:18
Very interesting reading.

I have a question I have been wondering about:

I once experienced a faster driver getting upset by the fact that I was too long to let him pass - maybe I was, but maybe he was being too intolorent, as I suspect he was.

When the race was over he told me to pull over - even STOP entirely when receiving the blue flag.

My own logic says it's a very bad thing to do and in the end, has nothing to do with racing - but.. thats just me - what the word on this one?


Anotyher thing:

Something similar (documentation) regarding negotiating corners would be appretiated too. I see way too many ppl ignoring the racing line (and the fact that they are clearly behind another car), and head straight for the apex (sharp turns) - only to force the faster driver (the one on the correct racing line) to brake hard and by doing so gain a position or more. I find this behavior rude, but I don't know the exact rules - would appretiate some reading on this also - in another topic ofcouse.

filur
30th March 2006, 13:13
I once experienced a faster driver getting upset by the fact that I was too long to let him pass - maybe I was, but maybe he was being too intolorent, as I suspect he was.When the race was over he told me to pull over - even STOP entirely when receiving the blue flag.

Just another silly driver thinking the blue flag is a magic pass-when-you-like ticket. Pulling over can be hazardous to other drivers, and stopping of course even more so.

bbman
30th March 2006, 20:07
Yeah, when given a blue flag, pick a line and STAY ON IT (when the lapping car is near enough)... By doing this, the lapping driver can lap you safely because he knows where you are... Braking and crossing the ideal line just to stay on the wide side of turns makes you unpredictable/more dangerous than you have to be...

And believe me, almost (if not even) all of us encountered such an idiot at least once...

jtr99
30th March 2006, 20:15
Something similar (documentation) regarding negotiating corners would be appretiated too. I see way too many ppl ignoring the racing line (and the fact that they are clearly behind another car), and head straight for the apex...

Hi Raptor. If you google for "GPL recommended driver behaviour" you'll get an excellent guide to corner rights and motor racing etiquette. Sounds like exactly what you're looking for. (The hard part is getting the other guy to read it too, sadly.)

www.asrg.org/gpl/gplac/rec_dvr_beh/rec_driver_beh.htm (http://www.asrg.org/gpl/gplac/rec_dvr_beh/rec_driver_beh.htm)

Cheers,
Jason.

r4ptor
30th March 2006, 21:00
Thanks jtr99,

I already have the guide bookmarked. It's a very good guide.

The reason I was asking was because I se lots of ppl - even faster driver behave the opposite way.

I would say it a very dirty way to race - crossing ur racing line and force you to brake hard - or staying next to you even though they have a big dissadvantage of beeing there - but they pursist... accident happends... and they are the once to bitch about it :(

I just dont think it's fun at all.

jtr99
31st March 2006, 13:42
Agreed, raptor. These people probably also push to the front in the queue at the all-you-can-eat buffet, so what can we do? Just smile and wave, as Mr. Funnybear would say, and keep looking for a server with nicer people on it.