Whose in fault?

[MyBoss]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3984612778462445397&q=caterham


Some great driving, but who is to blame at the end?

My opinion is that the guy in the white Caterham is the one. But I'm not shure.

[Vain]

Definitely the white Caterham.

Vain

[danowat]

The guy in the white, although he was clearly faster than the driver in front, that was a nasty dive into a place with no room, in fact he had to drive completely off the track to try the move, almost the whole car was off the track.

I also can't believe the liberties they were taking with the corners, didnt realise Caterham's made good off roaders LOL.

Dan,

[tristancliffe]

Yeah the white driver. He was too far back and didn't make enough effort to stay REALLY tight in the corner.

Should have hung back and waited, he was obviously quicker, BUT we all know what it's like in the heat of the moment - he felt he could make it and would have if the other driver had given more room.

[LRB_Aly]

Great driving :) But definately the white one was to blame.

[Gunn]

Great topic guys. :thumb:

The white car was at fault and although he was faster, the leading car was really making him work for it, that front guy looked like he was trying hard to keep his position. great stuff. :)

**This shouldn't really be in the general LFS discussion but will leave it here for a while because it promotes the benefits of clean racing in LFS.

[Fetzo]

yep the white one :). he was quiet careful before i don't understand why he did this move there. the leading driver couldn't possibly forseen that one.

[Fonnybone]

Hehe, i'll have to go with the white guy also. Just to repeat, he was faster
and the guy in front sure seemed to know it, but this is the kinda move
that can end very badly.

Oh, and i was gonna say the same as Gunn, this isn't really about LFS...

[Greboth]

the white car, he was faster etc etc etc blaa blaa blaa (cant b bothrered to say it all again)

Unless anyone knows what lap it was on, maybe it was last lap saw half a chance and went for it. A bad attempt none the less.

[Theafro]

It looked as if he had the better speed but was all over the back of the blue one, a very defensive driver can lead you to try something unexpected, i've got a feeling there wouldn't have been contact if the blue guy thought he'd attack there.

My tactic when given a tough (but slower) guy to pass, is to give pressure in your strongest corners, except one, save your strongest corner for making the pass, don't give 'em any hints you like to pass there. and hopefully it will come as a surprise when you do go for the pass, as long as they can see you coming. you gotta make sure they know you're there tho' !

[poirqc]

I don't know anything about racing, but it seems to me that even if the white guy was faster, he was'nt faster enough to pass the front one. Every time he tried to pass, he was always a bit short and could'nt do the move.

I may be wrong, but i don't think the other guy(i know he was not doing it) should let him pass.

[AJS]

Other question :

What steering ratio do caterhams have ? The wheels turn very fast ! Could be interesting to know the real value for the DFP :)

[danowat]

2 turns lock to lock I believe, so 540DEG, could be wrong though.

Dan,

[AJS]

Thanks !

[Hyperactive]

Hmm, looking at it you can see that the blue one was a bit out from the racing line at the point when the white decided to attack (he was all the way to the left and stayed there quite long too). So in a way the blue gave him a chance.

So in my opinion the pass was correct but a damn risky one. The blue car hadn't started to turn into the corner so the game was still on.

:flamed: :bananadea

[BlakjeKaas]

I think it's the fault of the caterham...
LOLZ :P

[danowat]

Hmm, looking at it you can see that the blue one was a bit out from the racing line at the point when the white decided to attack (he was all the way to the left and stayed there quite long too). So in a way the blue gave him a chance.

So in my opinion the pass was correct but a damn risky one. The blue car hadn't started to turn into the corner so the game was still on.

:flamed: :bananadea

But to even attempt the move the white guy had to get almost his whole car off the track, there simply wasnt enough room for him to try and overtake.

Dan,

[Bawbag]

That's what the LX4 should be like, I might download slickmod and see what it's like with slicks but it looks dman fun, love watching good Knock Hill races as it's the closest track to me and is a great little circuit. :thumb:

I wont even give my opinion as it's been said many times up there ^^:D

[KiDCoDEa]

gr8 vid.
the car with cam is to blame 100% for accident.

[Funnybear]

At first glance would appear to be the white car.

BUT.

As the blue car is our of shot our driver in the white car might have spotted an opertunity that he wouldn't have normally taken. Obviously the Blue car got his line wrong going through that complex if that is the case then maybe a certain amount of wielding should have taken place. But Cat 7's is uber competative and relativly cheap to race in so knocks and bangs are always happening.

What did strick me was the handling. People mention how badly the LX's oversteer in LFS, they oversteer badly in real life too. The diffence being that in real life there is so much more feedback to the driver enabling him to control the more extreme handling attributes of the Cats.

I actually think that LFS doesn't have it too far off in terms of simulation of a rear wheel drive, front engined Lotus 7 repilica. People just need to understand that the car does not respect those that don't respect it . . . .

[sshhaabb]

Some racing, this just goes to show what real fun LFS can be.

[Jakg]

id say the cam car, although the blue car should look at the position of the other cars, but there really wouldnt have been anything for him to do other than run onto the gravel or just hope that the cam car would do something, but as it happened the cam car just held the racing line, and as both cars cant occupy the same space, they crashed

[NotAnIllusion]

White cat's fault: I thought it was obvious the blue cat was going to turn in. You see the white cat backing off and not trying silly maneuvres in the clip and that the blue cat's driver is less experienced. Hence: the white cat's driver should have taken more care knowing the aforementioned as it was him/her still the one to attempt the pass.

[Hallen]

It was a racing incident caused by both drivers. The white car made an overly optimistic move. The blue car took a way different line on that lap than on previous laps. He had scrubbed off a lot more speed than he was normally carrying through that corner. (This may have led the white car to dive in because he would not have been able to avoid hitting the blue car... maybe). I guess you could also ask which car took the racing line, and which didn't?

The blue car was obviously way loose and having trouble hanging on to the car. The white car was much more in control. I think the blue car was overly optimistic about keeping the car on the track, let alone staying in front of the white car.

The reason the passes did not carry is these cars have exactly the same power and it is very difficult to get a good run without drafting help. Watch some other Cat 7 videos, and they use bump drafting heavily to make passes.

[bbman]

Really guys, where has the blue car been off the line? Look at that video again and notice that both drivers took the outmost line to drive to that corner because it is a rather sharp one... The one with the camera is fully to blame for that accident, as he tried to force the pass at a place he clearly couldn't do that (I call that "crowbar-passing") and just hoped that the other one would back off (which he didn't, because he wouldn't even thought the white caterham would try to pass there, thus he was caught by surprise for sure)... You can see that the white car driver's passing attempts get more desperate and more aggressive with the progression of this video, leading to this suicidical move at the end...

The only error the blue car made was not being aware of the white car at this corner (which even that you can't really blame on him, nobody would have passed at that corner... well, ok, someone did)...

[Barroso]

i'd say he did that dive the same way the blue cat did it in the lap before.

[Gimpster]

The white car despite being faster did not have enough overlap at the turn in to be awarded room thoug the corner. The Blue 7's rear tire hit the White 7's front, clearly less then 50% overlap was achieved. This was entirely the fault of the White 7 though if the Blue 7 had ben paying mre attention he could have left room easily. It was a pissing match, and the White 7 had better postition to come out of it ahead of contact was made. It was and he did. Dirty, dirty, dirty.

[Funnybear]

Followed by a Cardiff bus driver. 'Dem guys are nuts . . .

[Hyperactive]

The white car despite being faster did not have enough overlap at the turn in to be awarded room thoug the corner. The Blue 7's rear tire hit the White 7's front, clearly less then 50% overlap was achieved. This was entirely the fault of the White 7 though if the Blue 7 had ben paying mre attention he could have left room easily. It was a pissing match, and the White 7 had better postition to come out of it ahead of contact was made. It was and he did. Dirty, dirty, dirty.

I think there is enough overlap if the front tire of the other car next to the other's rear tire. Also in that situation there was enough overlap just before the blue car turned into the corner. It was an odd move by the blue one to drive so left before the incident. The other car was almost next to his bumper and defenately the blue one should had though that the line he chose created a situation for the white to try a pass.

Still a risky move. Almost dirty :) But within rules.

[Gunn]

Within which rules exactly?

[Gabkicks]

i'd say he did that dive the same way the blue cat did it in the lap before.

lol ur right :D the blue car did the same thing the lap before but the white car gave him room. i guess he thought the blue driver would return the favor.

[Hyperactive]

Within which rules exactly?

Well, as I see it you have the right to try a pass until the other one starts turning into the corner or makes a blocking move. (The corner rights.)

The other car didn't do neither of these things. Of course he had the right to drive the left side of the track at that point but it was obvious that such driving line leaves a possiblity for passing for the other car. Also he turned into the corner later than the best racing line would...

The whole situation reminds me a lot from some accidents seen in LFS. Passing under blue flag. The other car A (who has the blue flag) drives like the blue one did in that vid. The A chooses the outer line into the corner and at the same time gives the hint of "make a pass, I'll stay here" to the driver who then attempts the pass. Suddenly the A turns into the corner and there is the accident. They both had the equal right for the corner but the body languahe of the A doesn't match with his intentions/actions.

Result is usually a new thread on LFSforums ;)

Still imho he had the right to attempt that pass though it was a risky move. :)

[Vain]

I saw no "hint" in the blue car's drivers behaviour. He drove a pretty normal line for his driving. In all corners he stayed out a bit too long and this corner wasn't unusual at all.
Definitely the white car's driver's fault. Actually I would beat him to a bulp for ruining my car with such a stupid attack of bad driving.

Vain

[colcob]

Anyone who thinks this move was on, should go back to that GPL driving advice page and read up on the 'false overlap' phenomenon. He had only just acheived a slight overlap by the apex, which means he was nowhere near at the turn in point.
And maybe I'm just being daft, but I thought the standard way to approach a right hand bend was by staying to the left until the turn in point.
Watching it over a few times, it looks like the blue car was aiming for a late apex to get a good run onto the following straight. The white car was taking such an early turn-in point and early apex, there was no chance that he wouldnt hit the other car on the way out of the corner.

[Tyrion]

I think there is enough overlap if the front tire of the other car next to the other's rear tire. Also in that situation there was enough overlap just before the blue car turned into the corner. It was an odd move by the blue one to drive so left before the incident. The other car was almost next to his bumper and defenately the blue one should had though that the line he chose created a situation for the white to try a pass.

Still a risky move. Almost dirty :) But within rules.

I'm starting to wonder if my understanding of racing terminology is up to par.Both you and Gimpster (although you disagree on everything else) seems to agree that the turn in point is immediately before, or at the point of contact?

That's the turn-in point? :Looking_a

I was looking at this (http://www.asrg.org/gpl/gplac/rec_dvr_beh/rec_driver_beh.htm)
again, and the situation he describes there seems quite similar to the one in the video imho ( look in the 'corner rights' section, the illustration there).

Anyway, my new perspective on turn-in points gave rise to some thoughts about how such a situation might unfold in LFS.So let me present:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Battle of Turn-In & Tyrion.

Driving along an imaginary track, Turn-In and Tyrion battle for the lead.Turn-In is ahead for the moment, but only by a car length.They approach the next corner.

Turn-In looks in the mirrors.
Hm, a good car length behind.I should be in the clear, unless he is privy to the real meaning of turn-in points.No, he can’t be.

Tyrion sees Turn-In is still a car length in front.
Hmm, normally I would never attempt a pass in this situation, but now that I have obtained the secret knowledge of the true turn-in points, things are a little different.I will brake late, and dive in on the inside.When we reach the true turn-in point I will have achieved sufficient overlap to justify my actions.Haha, I’m a racing genious!

*crash* *clonk* *screech*
As the cars make contact, Turn-In's car spins out of control and off the track.Tyrion continues unaffected.

Turn-In: WTF??
Tyrion: Bwahaha
Turn-In: Wtf are you doing moron, you didn’t have corner rights!!
Tyrion: omg noob? I SO can't believe you just said that.There was sufficient overlap at turn-in point! Hahaha, noob
Turn-In: What are you smoking? Ffs
/Turn-In disconnects

Unable to contain his laughter any longer, Tyrion erupts .

Tyrion: Bwahahahaha…Muahahaha..ah…ah..Ahahahaha!

And thus ends the battle of Turn-In & Tyrion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


:nol2:

[DasBoeseC]

.....you forgot about the ban vote which Turn-In started.....

[Noccy]

I always thought the front driver has right to the racingline, unless u have more then half a car overlap during the braking zone. (so your front wheels are past his front door)
So in this case the white car is clearly at fault..just like anyone in LFS would be when trying a pass, if he barely overlaps the other guys back wheels.
Thats a recipe for disaster, even when passing a lapped car. It is the passing drivers responibility to make a clean pass. Imho that doesnt include diving down the blindspot in mirrors and expecting the other guy to smell your car and give way.
Not beside him in the brakingzone => he has right to the apex..and 9/10 will turn into u, so better brake a bit more and try that pass later on.

[MyBoss]

lol ur right :D the blue car did the same thing the lap before but the white car gave him room. i guess he thought the blue driver would return the favor.


But in that situation the Blue car wasen't a car length behind

[DasBoeseC]

:) 100% agree with Noccy :)

[tristancliffe]

It's not always something that can be reduced to 'rules'. There are grey areas, there is politeness and sportsmanship (or lack of) to consider, not just your own but the likely behaviour of your oponent.

Braking so late as to achieve sufficient overlap by the turn in point is not acceptable if the braking was so late that he wasn't going to make the corner or if the driver being passed risks being hit even if he gives room. If you are going to go for the pass you should always ensure (or try to) that you can slow down and take a safe line, staying totally to the inside out of the corner and only moving across the track if you have a sufficient lead (i.e. you can squeeze but not shove).

In the video it's quite obvious that the blue driver isn't as polished as the white driver or is struggling with a bad car. His line into the collision corner wasn't quite like the previous lap but he had sufficient lead at that point, bearing in mind they were fairly equal under braking, to assume the corner was his. You can't ALWAYS be looking in your mirror.

The white car almost certainly knew it was a risky maneuver, tell-taled by his larger than normal corner cutting to try and make it through the gap he saw was disappearing. Bearing in mind he was obviously faster it was only a matter of time before he got passed, and barging wasn't necessary. However, if it was the last lap of the race (as has been suggested) then the blue car should expect more 'do or die' moves on him, and therefore could be considered at fault for being asleep, and doing a Jarno (or Rubens, from Monaco last year).

I don't think there is a specific RULE that says he was wrong to attempt it, but there are racing standards, some of which are unwritten, that make moves like that less than welcome.

[thd]

Bearing in mind he was obviously faster it was only a matter of time before he got passed, and barging wasn't necessary.

Nah. If the slower driver defends his lines well, you can't expect to get by even if you are significantly faster. I've experienced this many times, both as the faster car and the slow guy in front :tilt:

However, if it was the last lap of the race (as has been suggested) then the blue car should expect more 'do or die' moves on him, and therefore could be considered at fault for being asleep, and doing a Jarno (or Rubens, from Monaco last year).

The last lap or not, you cannot pull a move like that and there is no way you could possible put the blame on a driver in front for 'not expecting a kamikaze move' just because it's the last lap!




Besides the crash in the end, it's a very nice video of how two race-setup caterhams behave when driven on the limit. Thanks for sharing :thumb:

[Hyperactive]

After all it wasn't smart move by the white. A risky move but imho it was acceptable in a way. But not worth it obviously ;)

[Noccy]

Hyperactive..i dont mean to flame u

But keep that in mind when some lunatic rams u off the track, then says :hey i overlapped your back wheels..i had right of way u noob.

I would definatly not call that an acceptable move..if he pulled it off without contact..no problem , but there clearly was not enough room for that.
If u look closely u can see he is behind! the blue car at the turn-in point and barely overlaps the rearwheels at the apex.

It is a situation that happens often ,both in RL and LFS..but that doesnt make it a valid passing move.

[Gabkicks]

the fast drivers use tactics like that all the time in lfs. its strange to see people here saying that when i see it all the time in lfs. I dont see it as dirty to dive in like that as long as you hold the inside or outside line and the other driver doesnt attempt to block. Like hyperactive said the other car didnt really attempt to block he just turned in as well. It was a desperate move by the white car but most people in LFS drive pretty desperately :).

[danowat]

err...no, most people in public servers drive like they are the only ones on the track with scant regard for anyone else, let alone any "rules".

Dan,

[Gabkicks]

lol. should i bust out the replays of all the crazy passes i've had used on me and ones i've used myself? alot of well known people here use moves like that. I sorta considered the decent servers to be cleaner than most real life races.

infact i cant remember the last time i was in a situation like that and the other driver didnt try to pass me.

[Hallen]

Watch some of these videos and then see what you think. I still think it was a racing incedent. Sure, the overlap was not there and it was probably an overly optomistic move, but we don't see everything from the view we had. Anyway, it is just my opinion, but after watching some of the videos on this site, I realize that these drivers can see so much more than we can on the video, that their situational awareness is much higher than what we have available.
Anyway, the videos on this site are outstanding to watch...

http://supervroum.noalia.net/chameau/spy/

[dave_w11]

If you do a search on google video for 'caterham knockhill' there's a little report alongside one of the other videos of that race. I think it seems to suggest stewards decided against the white car and deducted 12 seconds from his time unless that was another incident.

I agree that it was the white cars fault (well the driver...).

[bbman]

I always thought the front driver has right to the racingline, unless u have more then half a car overlap during the braking zone. (so your front wheels are past his front door)
Ok, I hear this BS every time and I'm really sick of it... There is no such thing as a "right" to a line... BOTH drivers have to take care and USE COMMON SENSE... You just can't shove another car off arguing with "I had the right to take this line cause you hadn't enough overlap..." It's just rude, stupid and damn risky... And it just provokes nitpicking like "Yeah, I had enough overlap, my bumper was 1 mm in front of your B-pillar!"

[Noccy]

Bman, if there is no such thing as "right to the racingline"..then why do racers, not adhering to the rule i posted above, get penalties in 99% of the real leagues that run worldwide. In the above movie that last driver will almost always get a penalty..unlike the front driver, who wont ever be penalized.
Guess why?

Maybe in your vieuw the blue car should have gone offtrack and on the grass to make room for the other guy,even if he tried an impossible pass? :pillepall

Offcourse both drivers have to be carefull and always try to avoid accidents. But there ARE rules about it (they might differ slightly per league ..but each and everyone of them has rules about such stuff)
Same when someone tries a pass and u close the door on him..close the door too late and u are in fault, end of story.


There is no such thing as a "right" to a line

say that to any steward at a trackday and he would call your words BS..not mine :)

[Noccy]

small exerpt from a link posted above

Corner Rights
If you watch the odd few drivers in action you might think the rule for corner rights goes something like, " Whatever piece of ground I can barge my way into I have the right to ". Well, ... not so. There is actually an etiquette for corner rights. Its not just for racing sims, but is basically the same for every level of real-world motor racing - from Formula Ford to Formula 1 and everything in between. " What ! ", you say. " You mean I don't have the right to throw my car into any gap I see ? ". Actually no, you don't - and if you raced in any real-world competition the way you may race, instead of being hailed as a motor racing genius you may find yourself banned from even the lowest levels of the sport.

n brief, the concept is, you must establish substantial overlap with the car ahead before a corner's turn-in point to have the right for room to be left for you by the ahead driver. Substantial overlap means at least that the front of your car is up to say the driver's position in the ahead car - and that's at the very least. You probably should have more in many circumstances. The ahead driver has ever right to be fully committed to the racing line of his choice without any interference if there was no overlap before he turned in.

Just to prove my point really..aka there ARE rules about passing and who has right to the racingline.

[bbman]

Please, before smart-assing me, read my posts, thanks... Because I stated before, that the white car driver was out of his mind to try to pass there, where it's just too obvious that he wouldn't achieve anything but a crash...

And I said, you don't have "the right" to take a line, you're taking (driving) a line right or false, but you don't have "a" right to take one... Try to understand that, there is a huge difference in it... If you can't, please ask anyone who can...

[NotAnIllusion]

1. Not Enough Overlap At Turn-in To Corner
-the car in front has the right to take any line thru the corner at racing speed
-the car attempting a pass does not have the right to put any part of the car on the line the car in front is taking so that it causes the line of the car in front to change, or so that collision is imminent if the car in front does not back off

2. There Is Sufficient Overlap At Turn-in To Corner
-the car being passed must take either the inside or the outside line depending on which side s/he is on at the beginning of the turn, and has the right to take it unhindered
-the car making the pass has the right to take either the inside or outside line unhindered to attempt a clean pass

In (2) the car being passed may not push the passing car off the track at corner exit because 'he didn't make the pass stick'.

A good example of this was the last F1 GP where Coulthard was pushed wide. That was an illegal move and whoever else it was in that incident was penalised for the maneuvre.

[DasBoeseC]

Anyway, the videos on this site are outstanding to watch...

http://supervroum.noalia.net/chameau/spy/

.....amazing stuff.....really.....especially when you watch these guys starting bump-drafting like mad.....somehow I am not sure if I had the nuts to do something like that in real life :Looking_a

On the Topic......START USING COMMON SENSE!!!!!!!

....I think that should be sufficient ;)

CU, Sebastian

[JohnPenn]

"Ok, I hear this BS every time and I'm really sick of it... There is no such thing as a "right" to a line"

I'm sick of driver's who try and pass on the inside who are "WAY" behind at turn-in and find out they dont have the grip to carry it off and use my car to hold the inside line.

This issue goes to the heart of racing in LFS, If my opponent is even slightly ahead, and I'm on the inside,I pull over and get back on his tail, and begin the hunt again:).

I expect him to use the raceline and act accordingly, yes there are grey areas but I drive with the "car infront has the line" mentality.

Worked for me since 1998 :)




John

[filur]

you don't have "the right" to take a line

But you do, like pretty much everyone else is saying, a car reaching a corners turn-in point uncontested has the right to get thru that corner without giving any kind of consideration as to what the car behind him is doing.

Two cars reaching turn-in at about the same time has the right to the line they are currently holding, outside has outside, inside has inside, without interfering with the other one's line.

Purely common sense safety rules.

[richy]

who usually decides who is at fault in real racing? its like a body of people i cant remember the name of though theres probably lots of them for each type of racing, usually you get some drivers fighting or arguing after an incident but i dont think they decide who was at fault do they? i would think that both drivers would have their own views on what happened and only a lot of people who have no bias can really decide those things. and are some just said to be a racing incident and noone is actually "to blame"?

or maybe i just watched too much touring cars :D

[traxxion]

Overly optimistic manouvre of the guy in the white car, no doubt in my mind it's his mistake here. He wasn't next to the guy in front before turn in point, which is what I always see as the right to the racing line (and which is the official FIA rule as well, as far as I know!).

Great racing though!

[bbman]

Ok, then please copy this rule in here that says: "If a car is behind x inches of another car, it has to back off at the next corner" There simply is none, and that is for a reason... The driver of the car in front can't just do as he pleases, he might be right to do so, but he hasn't the right to take a specific line... He doesn't own it, he hasn't patented it, he drives it, that's all... BOTH drivers should take care, and yes of course, the driver behind has the moral obligation to back off, but what if he doesn't? Because as we all know, turning in on another driver, fully aware of his position at my side, is agreed to be WRECKING by all of us here... From this fact alone, you can see that there can't be anything like a right to drive a particular line, you just might be right to do it... Please notice the difference now...
I have never said that the car in front has to go wide, nor have I ever encouraged behavior like the one shown in the video... Common sense has to tell both drivers what to do, as every situation has to be evaluated individually... I just say that you can't put something complex as overtaking into one simple right (which is even false)... :)

[Vain]

of course, the driver behind has the moral obligation to back off, but what if he doesn't?Then the driver behind is guilty of causing a crash.

Vain

[bbman]

And you're out too, what point would you've made with that? Common sense again...

[NotAnIllusion]

Contact should be avoided as far as possible and because someone has the right to take whatever line he chooses doesn't mean he shouldn't make space if the driver behind does something silly. Course, LFS not being RL one can "teach a lesson" by holding the line and letting the collision occur so that the passing driver notices what was wrong with that move :scratchch

Hardly ethical, but neither is a silly overtaking move. :schwitz: Obviously it's a big deal in longer races but in your average 5-lapper it might just pay off in the long run.

[Vain]

I think I have to clarify this:
When you approach a normal crossing on a public road you may have the right to enter the crossing section because of the public rules. That doesn't mean you should do it when someone else violats your right and drives into the crossing without looking!
In a similar manner you can have the right to drive your racing-line on the track. Which doesn't mean you should do it when there is someone standing in the way.

The term "right of way" just determins who gets the penalty points when a crash occurs.

Vain

[Becky Rose]

but who is to blame at the end?
That was so the fault of the white car that I want to question the need to question it... You just wanted to show the video didn't you?

It's typical of Knockhill, it's so lacking in a strait you have to wonder if the layout was concieved during a magic roundabout episode.

[ajp71]

I think they were both somewhat at fault for that and had certainly been asking for it with all the overdramatic slides.

[Vain]

I don't think there is a single set of rules in effect in a racing-series that would not expressively state that the white and only the white car is at fault here.
Except of course if there is a banger-racing-series. :)

Vain

[Becky Rose]

Those slides appear to be the norm for those cars. Both drivers make the odd mistake, but I dont think you could rule, "They where both driving like boy racers and deserved to crash".

The white car is at fault here because the door was not closed - the blue car was taking racing line because the white car had not pulled "alongside", so he had no right to interfere with the blue cars line.

RACMSA, FIA and CIK all say the same thing about that one... :)

If you picture it in LFS terms, think of yourself as the blue car. You look in your mirrors on the approach to a corner and see someone behind in your mirrors, they do not get alongside - you take racing line but the other guy doesn't slow down enough and taps you around by clipping your rear corner.

[Hyperactive]

One thing I have learned from LFS is that after the start you really need to look on your mirros because there is always some hotshot trying to pass you inside and in the process he brakes too late. Specially the first lefthander after AS nat for example. So it's like trying to stay away from bullet's path that is coming behind you :shrug:

[Gabkicks]

yeah on that turn for some reason even when i'm attacking i find i'm more successfull if i attack from the outside on the 1st turn :shrug: if u mean the other left hander after that.. yeah that turn is tight but somehow we always manage to run sideby side through it. :schwitz: i just hug the inside and pray the other guy doesnt hit me.

[Hyperactive]

I was talking about those who just brake way too late before the 2 slow corner section in the end of the longish straight after T1.

[Beasty]

Some cool driving there but its gotta be the guy in the white. Hes way to far back to make a dive down the inside. :D

[lucky]

The blue one was 100% at fault. Let's face it: if you want interesting racing, there's only one rule: leave room for the other car. As iI have written many times: FIA rules are wrong and stupid (as are people leading FIA). There sjould be no bullshit about who's in fromnt at the corner entray, that's just justifiying bad drivers. It's easy: if 2 cars overlap (or even if the driver is not suzre that they do not overlap), or basicalkly if there's any doubt that there maybe could be somebody overlapping with your car, you should leave room - on the inside and on the outside (at the corner exit). Side by side raciunmg is only fun that way.

[colcob]

Um, you obviously speak as a viewer rather than a competitor.

The guy in front doesnt really care about 'interesting' racing, he cares about winning.

[Vain]

FIA rules are wrong and stupid1. I'm glad I won't ever meet you on the track.
2. If you ever finish a race successfully, you are truely honoring your name.

Vain

[danowat]

The blue one was 100% at fault. Let's face it: if you want interesting racing, there's only one rule: leave room for the other car. As iI have written many times: FIA rules are wrong and stupid (as are people leading FIA). There sjould be no bullshit about who's in fromnt at the corner entray, that's just justifiying bad drivers. It's easy: if 2 cars overlap (or even if the driver is not suzre that they do not overlap), or basicalkly if there's any doubt that there maybe could be somebody overlapping with your car, you should leave room - on the inside and on the outside (at the corner exit). Side by side raciunmg is only fun that way.

Hahahaha, obviously never done any racing IRL then :pillepall

Dan,

[colcob]

Indeed, or even any raciunmg.

[Ramses]

For me it's like this:

The head tells me the white car is at fault (I, sort off, know the rules)

The heart tells me the guy in the blue car should have his *** kicked so bla, bla, bla...

IMO there is something wrong with the rules in these kind of situations. I've always felt that when someone behind me manages to squeeze part of his bodywork in between before I reach the apex, it's my duty to give him enough room. If I would have done what the blue car did, I would have reached for my "sorry!" bind ASAP.

I like racing and I like winning but I play LFS for fun. A good race for me is a race with lots of overtaking and fighting for positions, if possible side by side. It's not that important how high I finish. I rather finish last of a group of three while all three are cheering how much fun it was, then finish first because in the hairpin I had officialy the right of way and number two is therefore now parked against the fence...

Besides, are these rules really stricktly implemented in LFS? It would be interresting to try that and see how much racing will improve... Probably a lot of exiting overtaking becomes impossible because you need such an enormous slab of metal in between there to have any right to hold your line that you might as well just stay behind. Sure there are lots of other ways to overtake but this is a basic overtaking move that is seriously hampered by the rules. I think the leader simply has too many rights in these kind of situations.

As far as real racing goes I have no hands on experience but from a spectator point of view I think this rule alone has done a fine job making racing a pritty boring thing to look at, honestly.

So the white car is at fault.
But the blue car is a lamer... :)
I would classify it as a typical Shumi move.

Sorry for the rant but this rule has bothered me from the moment I became interrested in racing.

[bbman]

Basically, it is always better to be more careful, even if you may be right... I too back off one time more than necessary, to keep my car in a good shape before I would risk ruining my whole race... As I said, you wouldn't have proven any point but you're willing to be reckless just to claim you were right... :shrug:

But it's up to everyone himself how to handle such a situation... But I would't turn it the other way round like you mentioned... You just can't overtake someone on the inside if you're just at his rear bumper... The two cars would be side by side at corner exit (at best), but then still he has much to do to get past the other car... Isn't very useful either... :shrug:

[Becky Rose]

FIA rules are wrong and stupid
Interesting, but I regret to inform you of two very important errors in your post.

The series shown in the video is held under RACMSA regulations (or whatever the RACMSA became when the RAC sold it).

The FIA, specifically Max Mosley, did actually want to introduce a rule whereby if there was any overlap the car behind had right of way. The rule was set to come into force until it was pointed out that the guy infront only has 1 pair of eyes and they are in the middle of the car. "Significant overlap" remained the rule, and it's the rule because it works :). Even with such favoratism to the car infront the last few seasons of F1 have been brilliant fun to watch.

[tristancliffe]

Interesting, but I regret to inform you of two very important errors in your post.

The series shown in the video is held under RACMSA regulations (or whatever the RACMSA became when the RAC sold it).

The FIA, specifically Max Mosley, did actually want to introduce a rule whereby if there was any overlap the car behind had right of way. The rule was set to come into force until it was pointed out that the guy infront only has 1 pair of eyes and they are in the middle of the car. "Significant overlap" remained the rule, and it's the rule because it works :). Even with such favoratism to the car infront the last few seasons of F1 have been brilliant fun to watch.

Agreed, but expect to see a lot of people disagree with the bit about F1 being exciting. I do, but I don't think many people really appreciate the depth of F1 and just want banging wheel racing and cool crashes.

On the side note, why has no one started a RIP Paul Dana thread? Normally we get threads dedicated to the lives lost in motorsport, but not this time :/ For what it's worth, my thoughts go out to his friends and family, I know how hard it is to deal with such situations.

[Hallen]

Good points, guys.

The necesity to see and avoid is an important issue. I think that is more the reason for the rule than who has rights to the line. Unless you have a reasonable chance to see the other car, you can't avoid them. It then beomes a safety issue instead of an overtaking rule.

Lets face it. The white car was a lot faster. The blue car was blocking. They could block because they had a "right" to the line. He was not doing illegal or even unethical blocking, he was just trying to stay on his line. But he had to know the white car was there and trying to pass. In my opinion, he opened the door into that corner and was irresponisble to try and close the door after opening it. But, if you go by the letter of the FIA rules (I know it is sanctioned by another body), he might still have had the right to the line, but the vid is still not conclusive... to me.

From the other videos I have watched of this type of car, the type of sliding the blue car was doing is not normal. Either his car setup was crap, or he did not have the skill that he needed in that car. The rules are one thing, but if you know you are going to get eaten up, then you better be ready for people to try and pass you. Being right according to the rules does not magically unbend your car.

[Gabkicks]

i dunno.. i dont really find f1 racing boring. i watched the whole bahrain race from beginning to end.

[MyBoss]

i dunno.. i dont really find f1 racing boring. i watched the whole bahrain race from beginning to end.



hehe, I've watched every race (that I have had the chanse to see, which means the most of them) the last years, and the last season and the start of this have been great.

I just don't hope the new rules in 2008 will ruin anything.

[Ramses]

The FIA, specifically Max Mosley, did actually want to introduce a rule whereby if there was any overlap the car behind had right of way. The rule was set to come into force until it was pointed out that the guy infront only has 1 pair of eyes and they are in the middle of the car. "Significant overlap" remained the rule, and it's the rule because it works :). Even with such favoratism to the car infront the last few seasons of F1 have been brilliant fun to watch.

Yeah, that makes sense. Should have thought of that before :scratchch

Agreed, but expect to see a lot of people disagree with the bit about F1 being exciting. I do, but I don't think many people really appreciate the depth of F1 and just want banging wheel racing and cool crashes.

So intelligent people like F1. When you don't like F1 it's because your too stupid to understand it... Worse, your a wheelbanger that just likes crashes................................

Got to love those simplified point of views. I wish the real world would be so simple... :D

I like everything about F1 except the gossip and the actual race. But last year was a exception to that rule. And this season looks to be even better.

But I dumped my TV cause it was standing in the way... #$%@% :D

[Becky Rose]

Looking at the different points of view in this thread, when the fault in my opinion is quite clear, explains so many accidents in LFS.

I think LFS should come with a pdf of the racing regulations section of the blue book... Not that it'd help !

[Jakg]

The blue one was 100% at fault. Let's face it: if you want interesting racing, there's only one rule: leave room for the other car. As iI have written many times: FIA rules are wrong and stupid (as are people leading FIA). There sjould be no bullshit about who's in fromnt at the corner entray, that's just justifiying bad drivers. It's easy: if 2 cars overlap (or even if the driver is not suzre that they do not overlap), or basicalkly if there's any doubt that there maybe could be somebody overlapping with your car, you should leave room - on the inside and on the outside (at the corner exit). Side by side raciunmg is only fun that way.so basically your saying that in that incident, the car ahead should of thought "Oh, well the person behind me wants to get past, so i better leave him lots of room and nt defend my position", what do you want him to? Pull over and stop? you would of thought the driver of the cam car would of had more sense!

[Astro [ BJRL ]]

The racing line was hard for me to determine as it seemed to me the blue car in front was 'all over' the place. The way they handled the cars made me just sit and wait for something to go wrong, had I not known it in advance something would happen.

[Ramses]

Looking at the different points of view in this thread, when the fault in my opinion is quite clear, explains so many accidents in LFS.

I think LFS should come with a pdf of the racing regulations section of the blue book... Not that it'd help !

When you happen to talk about my comment, I ageed with you. No sarcasm there :)

[Rotary]

Great topic guys. :thumb:

The white car was at fault and although he was faster, the leading car was really making him work for it, that front guy looked like he was trying hard to keep his position. great stuff. :)

**This shouldn't really be in the general LFS discussion but will leave it here for a while because it promotes the benefits of clean racing in LFS.

Huh? But it's two LX4's racing... oh... hehe :razz:

Those cars look like fun to drive :D

[bbman]

They already ARE fun to drive, just choose them if you got the chance to do so... :razz:

[lucky]

1. I'm glad I won't ever meet you on the track.
2. If you ever finish a race successfully, you are truely honoring your name.

Vain
To you and colcob: did race (still do), finished races, never been warnbed or penalised. And I'd do the move anytime.
As for colcob: the point of racing is being entertaining to spectators/Wiewers. No public interest, no sponsors, no racing ...

[lucky]

Interesting, but I regret to inform you of two very important errors in your post.

The series shown in the video is held under RACMSA regulations (or whatever the RACMSA became when the RAC sold it).

The FIA, specifically Max Mosley, did actually want to introduce a rule whereby if there was any overlap the car behind had right of way. The rule was set to come into force until it was pointed out that the guy infront only has 1 pair of eyes and they are in the middle of the car. "Significant overlap" remained the rule, and it's the rule because it works :). Even with such favoratism to the car infront the last few seasons of F1 have been brilliant fun to watch.
1. st part: dod not know that, but I think RACMSA is under FIA.
2. F1 is booring. And as fopr 1 pair of eyes: if you're not 100% sure there's no overlap then act as there is overlap. Easy. Who do you blame in an incident? The guy who did not leave enough room.

[lucky]

so basically your saying that in that incident, the car ahead should of thought "Oh, well the person behind me wants to get past, so i better leave him lots of room and nt defend my position", what do you want him to? Pull over and stop? you would of thought the driver of the cam car would of had more sense!
NMo, more like: he's behnid me, attacking, I need to watch him carewfully. And if he lunges besides me, then I leave room. I canb still get him at the exit, cause he needs to take tighter line.
I race like that IRL and in LFS.

[Becky Rose]

1. st part: dod not know that, but I think RACMSA is under FIA.
I checked up recently because I know the RAC sold it off a while ago now (the year after I last raced TKM and moved to Pro's where I didn't need that license), it's now just called the MSA and governs all National and Club racing in Britain. It is not under the FIA which is a corporate money making machine based in France which happens to be partially owned by a Brit, but the majority shareholder is Fiat.

2. F1 is booring. And as fopr 1 pair of eyes: if you're not 100% sure there's no overlap then act as there is overlap. Easy. Who do you blame in an incident? The guy who did not leave enough room.
So you've never raced then? Welcome to LFS. :)

[MyBoss]

Conclusion.

You are being chased by a dude thats faster than you, but he just can't pass. Then, because you don't know if he is inside you, you will give room for him in every corner? Yeah, thats entertaining.

Seriously, you can't just dive into an atempt like that, its dangerous and extremely risky.

[lucky]

I checked up recently because I know the RAC sold it off a while ago now (the year after I last raced TKM and moved to Pro's where I didn't need that license), it's now just called the MSA and governs all National and Club racing in Britain. It is not under the FIA which is a corporate money making machine based in France which happens to be partially owned by a Brit, but the majority shareholder is Fiat.


So you've never raced then? Welcome to LFS. :)
MSA is member of FIA and therefore it's rules must be in accordance with FIA rules.

And I have raced (as stated before) IRL and still do.

myyboss: yes, if I'm not 100% sure that there's NO overlap, I'll leave space (and squeeze him gently, just for fun).