Let's get real, there won't be S3

[student]

So, Scawen has said somewhere that S3 development time will be twice as long as S2. S1 was released in 2003. S2 will be released in about 2-3 years. That makes it 8 years to develop S2.

That means S3 will be released in 2027. If LFS sells, then they can continue developing LFS. But will there be enough sales for the next 20 years?

Maybe there will be S3 some day, but it's so long time, you won't care about it anyway.

[Vinnylegends]

You're a Demo...
Why would you even care? :really:

[garph]

Wait, wait, I'm getting something.....my keen powers of deduction are telling me that this thread will probably get flamed, spammed and locked.

[hotmail]

So, Scawen has said somewhere that S3 development time will be twice as long as S2. S1 was released in 2003. S2 will be released in about 2-3 years. That makes it 8 years to develop S2.

That means S3 will be released in 2027. If LFS sells, then they can continue developing LFS. But will there be enough sales for the next 20 years?

Maybe there will be S3 some day, but it's so long time, you won't care about it anyway.
If you ask me they can :shy:

look at it in this may,
If you ask me, Lfs is still the Most realistic Race/Drift/Cruise(what ever you want!)Sim out there.

LFS is allready the last years the best sim out there.
So maybe the develement looks slow, but its still better when what the others are doing. otherwise that games would be better then lfs, and we wont play it anymore.

So anyhow , if the keep on going as they did the last years then they will be absolute fine if you ask me...

(!! if you dont agree with me Do Not Quote or Kill Me Please !!)

[student]

See? People active at the forums are relatively new. Nearly everyone who plays LFS regged about 4-5 years ago. Then people move on.

That means, you people who play LFS now, will move on other things when S3 comes out. So for you, there won't be S3.

[anbiddulph]

i think LFS's slow development is one of the best things about it. I love LFS alot more than when i started

[hotmail]

You're a Demo...
Why would you even care? :really:
Look The demo also got better over the years.
it looks like that he is allready a demo from 2006 so that means that he saw s2 growing and probely some parts from s1.

He Has a Forum accound so he can say or Care what ever he WANTS!!:nod:

(There is nothing wrong with a demo user, i was also a demo user for like a year. So what is the problem)

[SparkyDave]

See? People active at the forums are relatively new. Nearly everyone who plays LFS regged about 4-5 years ago. Then people move on.

That means, you people who play LFS now, will move on other things when S3 comes out. So for you, there won't be S3.

Thats just assumptive rubbish, some people play LFS a couple of times and never again while some play every day, its very naive of you to think everyone feels or acts the same as you.

SD.

[MAGGOT]

See? People active at the forums are relatively new. Nearly everyone who plays LFS regged about 4-5 years ago. Then people move on.

That means, you people who play LFS now, will move on other things when S3 comes out. So for you, there won't be S3.

I've been with LFS since before S1 was released. I'm not going anywhere.

[student]

If you ask me they can :shy:

look at it in this may,
If you ask me, Lfs is still the Most realistic Race/Drift/Cruise(what ever you want!)Sim out there.

LFS is allready the last years the best sim out there.
So maybe the develement looks slow, but its still better when what the others are doing. otherwise that games would be better then lfs, and we wont play it anymore.

So anyhow , if the keep on going as they did the last years then they will be absolute fine if you ask me...

The question is, will there be enough sales to feed the devs for so many years, because let's get real, it will take more than 10 years to develop S3.

Anyway, if they will be able to continue developing, most of you will move onto other things when S3 comes out, so in a sense, there won't be S3 for you. Am I right or am I right?

[mcintyrej]

See? People active at the forums are relatively new. Nearly everyone who plays LFS regged about 4-5 years ago. Then people move on.

That means, you people who play LFS now, will move on other things when S3 comes out. So for you, there won't be S3.

Did it cross your mind that people might grow out of playing games? Not just LFS.

If the devs want to make S3, they will - I don't hesitate in saying that the decision will purely be based on sales.

[Kalev EST]

i think LFS's slow development is one of the best things about it.
That's the most retarded thing I've read on these forums for a long time.

[hotmail]

See? People active at the forums are relatively new. Nearly everyone who plays LFS regged about 4-5 years ago. Then people move on.

That means, you people who play LFS now, will move on other things when S3 comes out. So for you, there won't be S3.
Look, i see this in a different way,
There are parts in your live that you dont have that much time left.
Eg: Getting kids, Going to University, and so on.

What you see that some off the old lfs drivers came in this state of there lives. This can mean that they are not that active anymore.

I do need to say that i also have my ups and Downs (but what do you expect a 24/7 online time:shy:)

Anyhow, what i can say from my experiance from the lfs users. The once that are in a nice team will stay long( but probely not post much on this forum) and the one that is alone (team-less) will quit faster.

[student]

I've been with LFS since before S1 was released. I'm not going anywhere.
Yes, there is a small group of active players. How many of you are there? 50? 100? Anyway, you are not paying the devs any money, there must be new sales for another 10 years or more. Is that gonna happen?

[Chupacabras84]

Actually it depends how long ppl can stick to game.
A simple example of a good game in which ppl play trough years its soldat just how old this game and how much ppl still play it:shrug:
Even if its looks belove average (Just old) some ppl still find its a good game and play it for years so its depends on personal preferences.

[hotmail]

The question is, will there be enough sales to feed the devs for so many years, because let's get real, it will take more than 10 years to develop S3.

Anyway, if they will be able to continue developing, most of you will move onto other things when S3 comes out, so in a sense, there won't be S3 for you. Am I right or am I right?
You are right, but not 100%.

i dont see this as a problem or what so ever. Look the devs are smart enough to make this Good Sim, So the would be smart enough the find a way (if they need money) the charts us:scratchch.(where i complety argee with btw.:))

The devs are not that stupid:x.

[ajp71]

I think the chance of S2 being released as the Devs have said they wanted it in the past is slim. LFS is in a strange state where a majority of established players have lost interest in it, but still remain loyal herald it as the best sim out there and remain active on the forum. The quality of racing online has reached rock bottom, mostly because it has evolved into the typical online game where the majority of players turnover every few months and established etiquette becomes forgotten about.

LFS is really quite obsolete now and given the rate of progress (assuming we are actually being told about it) I can't see how LFS can re-invent itself to keep up with iRacing and ISIs next installment. I don't think LFS has had very much effort put into it recently, and certainly don't believe three people have been working on it full time, its their business in the end of the day and there's no reason why we should expect them to keep producing LFS forever.

[Chupacabras84]

Yes, there is a small group of active players. How many of you are there? 50? 100? Anyway, you are not paying the devs any money, there must be new sales for another 10 years or more. Is that gonna happen?

If they decide to make some kind of a subscription or monthly payment I am out :D and I think not only me.
But I think there is a lot of way to make money in web from online service trough simple adds on their website or on load screen in game so they wont die from hunger :smileypul

[SamH]

Yes, there is a small group of active players. How many of you are there? 50? 100?

As I type, there are 1352 people actively playing LFS online. That doesn't include those of us who are thinking about LFS and surfing its forum.

[hotmail]

If they decide to make some kind of a subscription or monthly payment I am out :D and I think not only me.
But I think there is a lot of way to make money in web from online service trough simple adds on their website or on load screen in game so they wont die from hunger :smileypul
i am 100% sure scawen would never do that. He know too good that the would kill the community

[student]

You are right, but not 100%.

i dont see this as a problem or what so ever. Look the devs are smart enough to make this Good Sim, So the would be smart enough the find a way (if they need money) the charts us:scratchch.(where i complety argee with btw.:))

The devs are not that stupid:x.
Yes, this sim is the best there is. But the developing is getting exponentially more complex. It's always like that. First you make a simple thing, but when the system gets more complicated, the development slows down.

We have already seen this, small fixes to the physics model takes very long time for Scawen to implement. What does this mean? S3 is far far away in the future. So far, you won't care about it when it gets released.

The gimmicks like Formula 1 and the coming WV may bring new sales. But how are they going to develop the game and the physics, when making these gimmicks takes so much time?

[Chupacabras84]

As I type, there are 1352 people actively playing LFS online. That doesn't exclude those of us who are thinking about LFS and surfing its forum.
Well its doesn't change the fact we pay devs nothing so we are not a very profitable source for devs :smileypul

Anyway I will be playing LFS till I am get bored or find something else to do and if that happens oh well i couldn't play any game till now for more than year so...I don't think I will be playing LFS for very long time every game just get boring its normal. :shrug:
And if I decide to switch for some other sim i think i will do this only in case it will be better than lfs and if that happen i am still doesn't lose anything don't you think so?

[student]

I think the chance of S2 being released as the Devs have said they wanted it in the past is slim. LFS is in a strange state where a majority of established players have lost interest in it, but still remain loyal herald it as the best sim out there and remain active on the forum. The quality of racing online has reached rock bottom, mostly because it has evolved into the typical online game where the majority of players turnover every few months and established etiquette becomes forgotten about.

LFS is really quite obsolete now and given the rate of progress (assuming we are actually being told about it) I can't see how LFS can re-invent itself to keep up with iRacing and ISIs next installment. I don't think LFS has had very much effort put into it recently, and certainly don't believe three people have been working on it full time, its their business in the end of the day and there's no reason why we should expect them to keep producing LFS forever.

Exactly, you put it nicely into words. I'm not demanding anything from anyone. The devs decide what they do. I'm just beeing real about the current and future state of LFS.

[SamH]

There's already been mention by Scawen of S3 not taking the same form as S1 and S2. What that means I'm not sure, but probably it will come in different stages. After S2, perhaps there will be S3.01 with new tracks, S3.02 with new cars, S3.03 with night racing.. and these stages might come with proportionate costs. For example, the night racing stage might cost £8 and the new tracks might cost £10.

We don't know what will be in S3 or in what form it will come. We don't even have S2 final yet. But I'm pretty sure that the devs either have a plan or will develop a plan for S3 when that time comes. That time isn't now, though, so the negative speculation is pointless.

[ajp71]

I've been with LFS since before S1 was released. I'm not going anywhere.

Yes, your a typical LFS forum member/supporter, you're still sticking by LFS but in the last 6 years you've totaled less distance online than the typical short term member will do in a couple of weeks, so the chance of having a server filled with people like yourself is very unlikely.

As I type, there are 1352 people actively playing LFS online. That doesn't include those of us who are thinking about LFS and surfing its forum.

The number racing is a lot lower though, and the number of people not racing the exact same track combinations for the last 6 years is lower still. It is difficult to find a reasonably competent grid without people acting maliciously on a combination where the top 6 haven't already done thousands of laps on it.

[hotmail]

There's already been mention by Scawen of S3 not taking the same form as S1 and S2. What that means I'm not sure, but probably it will come in different stages. After S2, perhaps there will be S3.01 with new tracks, S3.02 with new cars, S3.03 with night racing.. and these stages might come with proportionate costs. For example, the night racing stage might cost £8 and the new tracks might cost £10.

We don't know what will be in S3 or in what form it will come. We don't even have S2 final yet. But I'm pretty sure that the devs either have a plan or will develop a plan for S3 when that time comes. That time isn't now, though, so the negative speculation is pointless.
100% right:thumb:

[SamH]

Well its doesn't change the fact we pay devs nothing so we are not a very profitable source for devs :smileypul

You're right, of course, and in the Scirocco thread you will find lots of bitchy whiny people who don't seem to understand this.

The devs know the numbers, they know the costs, they've shown time and time again that they have the enthusiasm to continue developing LFS and they've shown that they can live happily on the proceeds. As they always have, they continue to do so. The speculation is partially interesting.. I enjoy a good "what if" scenario to think about.

The "Let's get real, there won't be S3" negativity is just tripe though. Like as if any of us can state that, or anything similar, as if it were a fact? Pffft.

[Not Sure]

Apparently the name of the product is really important to some people. We could have the exact same game as we have now and it could be called LFS, not LFS alpha - version whatever. The lack of immediate sequel, LFS 2, would be more tolerable to some people, as they could be playing the "real thing" not "work in progress".

This makes no sense at all, it's just that most games are developed this way and thats what people expect.

[KOB_CHEESE]

Hell after over 5 years I'm still very interested in LFS - despite quite a few life changing situations.. The big draw for me is that it gives me the most realistic driving feeling of any sim i've played. I go to rfactor for the variety, but still feel short changed in the driving model and end up playing lfs again..

An interesting theory for you all - what would happen if the game was actually marketed and promoted??? Scavier have done amazingly well considering the game is pretty much being spread by word of mouth. IMHO that shows how good the driving model really is :thumb:

Actually getting out there and promoting it could make it grow in a massive way. With the much slated additional language support, and the ability to work on medium spec hardware, there is one hell of a big potential customer base out there- especially if advertised all over the globe..


Ps/ I ain't saying its perfect, but I think there is plenty of mileage in this baby yet ;-)

[student]

The "Let's get real, there won't be S3" negativity is just tripe though. Like as if any of us can state that, or anything similar, as if it were a fact? Pffft.
I admit, the title is very provocative and somewhat negative! But putting all the fanboyism aside and getting real, it's possible the future of LFS won't necessarily be what expected it to be a few years ago.

[zeugnimod]

it's possible the future of LFS won't necessarily be what expected it to be a few years ago.

Does that have to be a bad thing?

[SamH]

The number racing is a lot lower though, and the number of people not racing the exact same track combinations for the last 6 years is lower still. It is difficult to find a reasonably competent grid without people acting maliciously on a combination where the top 6 haven't already done thousands of laps on it.

It's a long time since there were any significant changes to LFS, and there is a boredom factor to consider. Mad as I am on LFS, it's an awful long time since I went online. I've signed up for some league action during the summer, though, so don't write me off yet ;)

Scawen says there's going to be some good stuff coming this year, with updates in the pipeline, so I wouldn't recommend drawing a plotted line from the recent past directly into the future, and assume that that is how things will go. When the BF1 was released, numbers in the game exploded. The numbers tailed off over a few months but then the BF1 simply isn't everyone's cup of tea. A whole bunch of people have absolutely no interest in open wheelers.

I think the VWS, with its limited setups and the differences that that will bring to online racing grids/packs may well have a much greater player longevity. That's my prediction, but of course I can't say for sure. But none of us can. We only know ONE of many things that are coming, so far :)

[SamH]

I admit, the title is very provocative and somewhat negative! But putting all the fanboyism aside and getting real, it's possible the future of LFS won't necessarily be what expected it to be a few years ago.

I'm counting on it not being. I like surprises.

[hazaky]

OMFG, stop doing so damn stupid threads! :weeping:

[student]

Does that have to be a bad thing?

I personally think the development of the physics model and the game engine is going to be really really slow, for the simple reason of increasing complexity.

We'll probably be getting a small gimmick like a new car once per year. But the development of the game itself is likely to be very slow.

Is it a good thing?

[SparkyDave]

IMO the thing that people seem to overlook is the attitude of the Devs, I have always likened it to the BBC series "The Good Life" they don't do it for the money, its a lifestyle choice, a way of living life by your own set of rules, there will always be bills to pay etc, and income is usefull but, people who choose to live life this way (myself included) find a way.

I feel sure the game will continue to develop until such a time as Scawen either considers it complete (S3 Final) or loses interest, and many things that have been made in the past (LX8) and not released, so whos to say that they havn't been making additional content for years and keeping it back for whatever reason?

Money is not the main driving force behind this project, thats my take on it, and its finer in quality that almost everything else in its genre.

SD.

[MAGGOT]

Yes, your a typical LFS forum member/supporter, you're still sticking by LFS but in the last 6 years you've totaled less distance online than the typical short term member will do in a couple of weeks, so the chance of having a server filled with people like yourself is very unlikely.

This is true, I don't race online often. But that doesn't mean I don't play it. I play LFS a lot, actually. Maybe not as much as some, but a few times a week generally. I just don't race online very much; mostly because I don't like the combos, partly because my internet at school is crap. I'm now out of residence, though, so I might be online a little more. We'll see.

The question is, will there be enough sales to feed the devs for so many years, because let's get real, it will take more than 10 years to develop S3.

Anyway, if they will be able to continue developing, most of you will move onto other things when S3 comes out, so in a sense, there won't be S3 for you. Am I right or am I right?

So you're saying that in 10 years time we won't want to play racing games any more? If in 10 years LFS is still on par (or better, as it is now) than most other racing sims then I will still play it. I'm not suddenly going to loose interest in racing sims, and I'm willing to bet that when LFS S3 is released it will still be one of, if not the, best racing sims available.

There is a very real possibility that the devs could stop working on LFS. But really, there's a greater possibility that it will take quite a while for that to happen.

[niels1]

Indeed LFS is a sim of his own. There no sim related or compared to LFS. Sure there is iracing, netkarpro, ISI and so on. But I have tried them all.

iracing, superb graphics, real feel of the car. But teh way you have to pick up a race isnt mine piece of cake. I dislike the system the half build around it.

netkarpro, never felt a car more in a game as in netkarpro. Not many supported so a few servers online. NOt many are interested in a open wheel sim. It will develop though but very slow.

LFS is progressing slowly, but has got the best pickup races on any game. There are defitnly some updates needed on graphice phycics etcetra but there no game what gives the best online racing. As intented.

Agreed I would love to see some more progress but still I keep coming back to the game. Been there for years now. I started LFS back in S1 in the demo.

Plane and simple, LFS is a game which keeps people coming back. Even after years. Believe me seen it happen. So id development is taking years I am happy. I dont pay any monthly subscription, get the best pick up races, a friendly racing enviroment.

[DratsaB]

Indeed LFS is a sim of his own. There no sim related or compared to LFS. Sure there is iracing, netkarpro, ISI and so on. But I have tried them all.

iracing, superb graphics, real feel of the car. But teh way you have to pick up a race isnt mine piece of cake. I dislike the system the half build around it.

netkarpro, never felt a car more in a game as in netkarpro. Not many supported so a few servers online. NOt many are interested in a open wheel sim. It will develop though but very slow.

LFS is progressing slowly, but has got the best pickup races on any game. There are defitnly some updates needed on graphice phycics etcetra but there no game what gives the best online racing. As intented.

Agreed I would love to see some more progress but still I keep coming back to the game. Been there for years now. I started LFS back in S1 in the demo.

Plane and simple, LFS is a game which keeps people coming back. Even after years. Believe me seen it happen. So id development is taking years I am happy. I dont pay any monthly subscription, get the best pick up races, a friendly racing enviroment.


Agreed Niels, nice post.

[anbiddulph]

That's the most retarded thing I've read on these forums for a long time.
gee...... thanks.....


whats actually wrong with it? paying one and not for every single new car/ feature / track? yea. thats retarded

[patko]

So, Scawen has said somewhere that S3 development time will be twice as long as S2. S1 was released in 2003. S2 will be released in about 2-3 years. That makes it 8 years to develop S2.

That means S3 will be released in 2027. If LFS sells, then they can continue developing LFS. But will there be enough sales for the next 20 years?

Maybe there will be S3 some day, but it's so long time, you won't care about it anyway.

Let's get real, you won't be there when s3 is comming...and that's all!

[garph]

gee...... thanks.....


whats actually wrong with it? paying one and not for every single new car/ feature / track? yea. thats retarded
No one said anything and paying more for updates.

You said you liked the slow development cycle, he said that was retarded.

[r_b_l]

Hmm, check the latest test patch Z13 guys...
More specifically the language files (in my case Czech.txt, as that's the one I understand)
There are 2 new interesting strings that weren't there in Z10 (and plain Z):

3g_usrol_s3 - User online on S3 server
3g_hstis_s3 - Server running Live for Speed S3

...maybe S3 is nearer that we think :scratchch

[geeman1]

Why is everyone so obsessed about S3? It's just a name for the version the devs deemed to be the final version of LFS 7 years ago. There might be S3 or there might not. It doesn't really matter, LFS will still get updates regardless.

[Not Sure]

oh the irony!

[Shadowww]

Hmm, check the latest test patch Z13 guys...
More specifically the language files (in my case Czech.txt, as that's the one I understand)
There are 2 new interesting strings that weren't there in Z10 (and plain Z):

3g_usrol_s3 - User online on S3 server
3g_hstis_s3 - Server running Live for Speed S3

...maybe S3 is nearer that we think :scratchch
TRUE!

3g_usrol_s3 User is online on a S3 host
3a_hostrefu Host refused connection
3a_hstdiffv Host is a different version
3a_hstdiffc Host has a different game code
3a_hstis_s1 Host is Live for Speed S1
3g_hstis_s2 Host is Live for Speed S2
3g_hstis_s3 Host is Live for Speed S3

[SpikeyMarcoD]

Maybe wishfull thinking of the Czech translators... :)

[PMD9409]

Maybe wishfull thinking of the Czech translators... :)

Yep, because the English translation sure doesn't have it.

[geeman1]

Yep, because the English translation sure doesn't have it.
It does. All language files have those two lines...

[Matrixi]

Yep, because the English translation sure doesn't have it.
Updated english text file isn't included in Z13.

I took a look at the language files myself, and all the Z13 language files have that S3 line. Of course this doesn't mean anything yet, as translation files have lots of un-used lines, but it might give a tiny fraction of hope.

[Shadowww]

Updated english text file isn't included in Z13.

I took a look at the language files myself, and all the Z13 language files have that S3 line. Of course this doesn't mean anything yet, as translation files have lots of un-used lines, but it might give a tiny fraction of hope.
English text files are updated by LFS.exe automatically (english is undeletable language)

[Matrixi]

Yeah, just noticed that. I only went through the .txt files which the patch extracted. :)

[S14 DRIFT]

I think the chance of S2 being released as the Devs have said they wanted it in the past is slim. LFS is in a strange state where a majority of established players have lost interest in it, but still remain loyal herald it as the best sim out there and remain active on the forum. The quality of racing online has reached rock bottom, mostly because it has evolved into the typical online game where the majority of players turnover every few months and established etiquette becomes forgotten about.

LFS is really quite obsolete now and given the rate of progress (assuming we are actually being told about it) I can't see how LFS can re-invent itself to keep up with iRacing and ISIs next installment. I don't think LFS has had very much effort put into it recently, and certainly don't believe three people have been working on it full time, its their business in the end of the day and there's no reason why we should expect them to keep producing LFS forever.


Mm pretty well said Alex.

[PMD9409]

It does. All language files have those two lines...

Yep, just looked back and I guess I missed it somehow. :shrug:

[JasonJ]

yay free updates 'till 2027
:thumbsup:

[510N3D]

So, Scawen has said somewhere that S3 development time will be twice as long as S2. S1 was released in 2003. S2 will be released in about 2-3 years. That makes it 8 years to develop S2.

That means S3 will be released in 2027. If LFS sells, then they can continue developing LFS. But will there be enough sales for the next 20 years?

Maybe there will be S3 some day, but it's so long time, you won't care about it anyway.

Well thats a pretty simple equation you've got there. Unfortunately for you, not everything can be calculated with mathematics, especially not at the level of primary school.

Seriously, this makes absolutely no sense at all, let alone the fact that you are not in the position to consider everything that was, is and will be needed in order to create such a game.

Personally, i do hope that the devs wont lose interest soon and continue doing what they where doing for the past "couple of years", which was a great job really. Of course they could have worked faster and release more content and such. But then again, i guess real life would have become a myth for them, or worse...

[DragonCommando]

All I know is that I'm going to be around for a long time, I still play LFS online whenever I have time, and I still enjoy it.

I've been with LFS since before I had a forum account, I found it way back when I had a P3 600mhz. I played the demo and found the physics absolutely amazing then, and its improved alot since then.

People worry about things like graphics and shaders, I look at it as an amazing accomplishment for three people. If I could do something like this with my team (also three people) in the same amount of time I would be a very happy person.

[bmwracer67]

Lfs is still the Most realistic Race/Drift/Cruise(what ever you want!)Sim out there.



I wouldn't say that. Even M3 Challenge is more realistic. Sliding/drifting in LFS is much too easy. Cars just slide unrealistically. In real life, dry tarmac doesn't let you float with your car sideways even if you don't apply throttle. Look at the RA(it's not the only one), you don't even have to push throttle, it just drives on ice. IIIICCCEEE!

LFS has the very best simulation potential, and it would really be the best racing sim IF the tyre grip stuff(feeling of driving on ice, hot tires no-grip issue)would be fixed. I mean if you swing your driving wheel on a straight even a bit then even XF GTI starts sliding and going out of control.

That's why I don't also want rain in LFS, we already are driving in rain(if not on ice), what would happen if theroad cars would loose in more grip :( No other racing sim handles like LFS because of the tyre grip issue(Forza, GT5, GT legends, rFactor, M3 Challenge)

It's a bit off-topic tho, but this major tire grip issue really is the only major problem of LFS

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Yeah it is the most major problem of LFS but that garbage you mentioned still doesn't hold a candle to LFS in overall tire physics. For tire physics: iRacing > LFS > other crap. (Except maybe Netkar Pro I suppose, but if you want to talk about development time... lol)

[nismoCat]

So, Scawen has said somewhere that S3 development time will be twice as long as S2. S1 was released in 2003. S2 will be released in about 2-3 years. That makes it 8 years to develop S2.

That means S3 will be released in 2027. If LFS sells, then they can continue developing LFS. But will there be enough sales for the next 20 years?

Maybe there will be S3 some day, but it's so long time, you won't care about it anyway.


Had a few drinks tonight eh??

[N I K I]

If you ask me they can :shy:

look at it in this may,
If you ask me, Lfs is still the Most realistic Race/Drift/Cruise(what ever you want!)Sim out there.

LFS is allready the last years the best sim out there.
So maybe the develement looks slow, but its still better when what the others are doing. otherwise that games would be better then lfs, and we wont play it anymore.

So anyhow , if the keep on going as they did the last years then they will be absolute fine if you ask me...

(!! if you dont agree with me Do Not Quote or Kill Me Please !!)
I'd just like to add to this.
Makes no difference is it called S2 or S3 or S4. Would it really make you happy to have S2 done like a year ago (with old physics, cockpits, old BL, SO etc) and to be on S3 now with these improvements? Totally makes no difference.
All LFS would need is few more tracks, because it's hard to make a good league with just 6 tracks (and pls don't talk to me about layouts now).

[migf1]

I'd just like to add to this.
Makes no difference is it called S2 or S3 or S4. Would it really make you happy to have S2 done like a year ago (with old physics, cockpits, old BL, SO etc) and to be on S3 now with these improvements? Totally makes no difference.
+1

All LFS would need is few more tracks, because it's hard to make a good league with just 6 tracks (and pls don't talk to me about layouts now).
Yeap, that would be a good start, especially if those tracks were real ones. Besides spending years of practising to master absolutely useless tracks, being TOTALLY disconnected from ALL other sim AND RL motorsports enthusiasts is something worth mentioning as a major con when we talk about "simulators", imho (you talk to the world about... blackwoods, westhills & fernbays and the world looks back at you like you are an alien... and you pretty much are).


If you ask me, Lfs is still the Most realistic Race/Drift/Cruise(what ever you want!)Sim out there.
Physics & ffb-wise LFS is pretty much established by now, although there's always room for improvement. Likewise, LFS's online play along with LFSW & insim technology are more than established as the best organized all around online service ever existed on any sim so far.

The thing is, those LFS pros compared to the competition exist for so long that they gradually lose their advanatage, since the competition closes the gap in much faster rates than before.

Besides closing the gap, the competition also offers way more realistic solutions to almost every other simulated area compared to LFS (graphics, sounds, weather, day/night transitions, real tracks, real cars, variable racing grip... expand the list as you wish).

Personally I've lost hope that LFS will ever reach again the advantage it had over the competition when I fisrt discovered it (that is almost 4 years ago). It's not only the slow development pace, but it's also the dev's updating priorities, as they're shown in every released patch.

[pasibrzuch]

It seems that 'student' is alter ego of ajp's71 or some sort of troll which spend too much time on 4chan beeing high/drunk.

Ignore the smart-ass as he is fooling our minds in b4 very good incompatible patch.

[hotmail]

I'd just like to add to this.
Makes no difference is it called S2 or S3 or S4. Would it really make you happy to have S2 done like a year ago (with old physics, cockpits, old BL, SO etc) and to be on S3 now with these improvements? Totally makes no difference.
All LFS would need is few more tracks, because it's hard to make a good league with just 6 tracks (and pls don't talk to me about layouts now).
that was also the bottom line of my post. only didnt make it clear:shy::D

[rockclan]

See? People active at the forums are relatively new. Nearly everyone who plays LFS regged about 4-5 years ago. Then people move on.

That means, you people who play LFS now, will move on other things when S3 comes out. So for you, there won't be S3.

Sir in December I'm here for 6 years, and I'm TOTALLY not bored, I didn't move over either.

Please stop flaming the devs with this kinda crap, and wait for the beautiful things that are coming and that are might coming this year.

Like VW Scirocco, updated intriours for multiple cars, break-off damage, etc., etc.

[student]

Sir in December I'm here for 6 years, and I'm TOTALLY not bored, I didn't move over either.

Please stop flaming the devs with this kinda crap, and wait for the beautiful things that are coming and that are might coming this year.

Like VW Scirocco, updated intriours for multiple cars, break-off damage, etc., etc.
VW Scirocco might come out this year, even though it was expected last year. But break-off damage? Maybe in 5 years.

Luckily for LFS, there is still no alternative for LFS, being affordable and realistic SIM. But someone big, such as EA might just put 50 millions into developing a realistic sim.

[SamH]

VW Scirocco might come out this year, even though it was expected last year. But break-off damage? Maybe in 5 years.
Oh right, I didn't know that the timetable was made public. 5 years? I remember Scawen said he wanted to include that in S2, but obviously you have newer information than that. 5 years? Damn. :(
Luckily for LFS, there is still no alternative for LFS, being affordable and realistic SIM. But someone big, such as EA might just put 50 millions into developing a realistic sim.
Let me know when EA release that, please. I just hope they do a better job of finishing their own product than they did with ALL their other titles.

[hotmail]

VW Scirocco might come out this year, even though it was expected last year. But break-off damage? Maybe in 5 years.

Luckily for LFS, there is still no alternative for LFS, being affordable and realistic SIM. But someone big, such as EA might just put 50 millions into developing a realistic sim.
Welcome in your own fantasy world....:(

Real Real Bad m8 Real Bad. And this is why we have all the rumors around:nod:.

[DevilDare]

To be honest i dont care if there wont be S3.... As long as they keep working on the game, and keep putting in the new stuff under S2 i dont see the problem..... That "3" wont change anything....

[freddyalek90]

Oh right, I didn't know that the timetable was made public. 5 years? I remember Scawen said he wanted to include that in S2, but obviously you have newer information than that. 5 years? Damn. :(

Let me know when EA release that, please. I just hope they do a better job of finishing their own product than they did with ALL their other titles.
It's only me, or someone else can smell a lot of irony? It's nice :D


On topic (sort of):
Why can't you whiners just WAIT, without being so pessimistic?
I'm sure, ONE DAY we will have our Scirocco, our S3, our new cars and tracks and whatever the devs will want us to have. Until then, we'll just enjoy what we've got.
</thread>

[H0ld3n]

Are you waiting for S3 to pay your license? what's the rush?

Like somebody said before, nobody cares if it's called S2 0.7L alpha or S3. LFS is still alive and getting better with time, that's what matters.

[ajp71]

I wouldn't say that. Even M3 Challenge is more realistic. Sliding/drifting in LFS is much too easy. Cars just slide unrealistically. In real life, dry tarmac doesn't let you float with your car sideways even if you don't apply throttle. Look at the RA(it's not the only one), you don't even have to push throttle, it just drives on ice. IIIICCCEEE!


/facepalm

LFS's tyre model is the best bit about it. Real tyres do produce peak grip at reasonable slip angles (approx. 10° for modern radial road tyres, 5° for radial slicks and above 12° for old cross ply racing tyres) breakaway after the peak slip angles is always gradual, as it is in LFS. Most sims believe in this total nonsense about rubber and asphalt becoming frictionless as soon as the tyre passes a certain slip angle, and sometimes the peak slip angle is botched stupidly high to try and make the car slide recoverably, this is obviously wrong as it means that the in order to drive the car quickly it has to maintain lurid angles to the track (I've seen ISI mods with peak grip occuring at 25° to allow the car to drift). Strangely if you put sensible figures into the ISI engine it produces a car that is similar to LFS and real life behaviour...

The overall grip level is completely irrelevant to what the car feels like to drive, and is nearly always too high in all sims, LFS is much better than most in this regard but I think the road tyres especially have too much grip still. In reality it all feels much faster and you get much better feel. My guess is you haven't been fast in a lightweight rear wheel drive car on road tyres without downforce, or better still been driven fast in such a car. Having driven such a car for the first time then immediately been passengered by someone experienced and fast in such a car the difference is incredible, and also in a few laps teaches you more than you could learn in a day of just driving round on your own, a rear wheel drive car should be driven on the throttle and the tyres should always be sliding, if they're not there's a lot of extra grip you're not using.

It seems that 'student' is alter ego of ajp's71 or some sort of troll which spend too much time on 4chan beeing high/drunk.


I can assure you 'student' is nothing to do with me.


Luckily for LFS, there is still no alternative for LFS, being affordable and realistic SIM. But someone big, such as EA might just put 50 millions into developing a realistic sim.

Presumably LFS isn't providing sufficent income for the Devs to live on, hence the slow development, so what's the chance of a large team who will want more pay and be less motivated than the Devs seeing any financial sense in developing for such a niche market. GPL and RBR are about the only uncomprimising sims to have been released by big companies in the mainstream distribution methods, and neither were huge financial successes despite gaining legendary status in the sim community.

[aaltomar]

I'm trying to stay somewhat positive when it comes to the development of LFS, but honestly, if Scawen can take a 5 month hiatus to "move a house and fix things" and not develop LFS, then LFS is not their priority. I have a one month summer vacation and if needed can take one day of leave to move a house...

But I guess the above reason is one of why the team has chosen to develop LFS on their own schedule, not what people expect them to do. I was hoping the long silence would mean a bigger update being a final S2 and announcing imminent S3 alpha/beta release with Eric having produced new tracks and cars. Seems not to be so...

[LRB_Aly]

Well S1 was released 2003. S2 is in production, but the very fact that SCAVIER still works on it gives credit to them. There aren't a lot of products that once released are worked on for such a long time. I think the guys deserve our respect cause they've not always had the best critics even from the comunity. So common trust them in their plans.

[bmwracer67]

Yeah it is the most major problem of LFS but that garbage you mentioned still doesn't hold a candle to LFS in overall tire physics. For tire physics: iRacing > LFS > other crap. (Except maybe Netkar Pro I suppose, but if you want to talk about development time... lol)

the tire physics are great in its complexity, yes COMPLEX is the word but not accurately. It is much more complex than in other games, but thanks to some bugs or shortages it actually makes car handling feel LESS realistic than the one of some games with more primitive tire models.

The simple fact that real cars aren't swinging, sliding this much as in LFS speaks for itself. I mean even FWD cars can easily POWERSLIDE out of corners in LFS. In real life most FWD cars are struggling with heaps of UNDERSTEER, but in LFS you can get understeer only when you deliberately make an understeer setup. In LFS almost all road cars except UF are very oversteer. Its also very easy to keep drifting(even 7 years olds can drift like pro in LFS), which is not so easy in real life. That's the point where LFS physics need a bit of tweaking.

Still, I have to admit this oversteer and very sliding tire physics is fun to drive :P

[LRB_Aly]

In LFS almost all road cars except UF are very oversteer. Its also very easy to keep drifting(even 7 years olds can drift like pro in LFS), which is not so easy in real life.

Common cut the crap. I'm no pro driver and still got to make all the cars that I possesed to oversteer (all FWD with exeption of my Karts) and could keep them easily. It's much more unrealistic that you don' t feel a car like in R-Factor. Suddenly the car slips away and there's almost nothing you can do. I never had such a behaviour in real life. I always felt the car. And that's a thing LFS transmits to me. Ok I don't tried NETKar Pro and I-Racing, heard they're also good in that thing but I don' t think LFS is bad in terms of feeling

[Byku]

...

This is good thread about tyre physics: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1149568#post1149568 . In LFS drifting is rather realistic, and trust me... nobody will be able to catch a slide in LFS playing it for few hours(my few friends are proofs :p). Remember that also in real life there are forces acting on Your body, so it is harder to focus on countersteering(tried handbrake sliding in FWD at 80-90kmh), moreover setups are the KEY! Most of the setups in LFS for FWD cars are made to be oversteery ;).

Btw. This thread sucks, really hard! Somebody should close it :p, it will simply change to another tyre discussion or flame war.

[ajp71]

...

It's largely due to setup that most LFS cars do not suffer understeer as much, which is slow and uncontrollable, not to mention boring. Most road and some race cars are deliberately setup to understeer more because it is easier for an inexperienced driver to cope with. Try LFS with realistic setups and the front wheel drive stuff will be dull and uninteresting to drive with heaps of understeer unless you deliberately try to get the back out, just like most road cars. The behaviour of the front wheel drive cars cannot be compared to your daily driver due to them all using an LSD (which is unusual in small hatchbacks) or a locked diff (which simply is not used in circuit racing in front wheel drive cars).

[mathew4445]

Back onto S3 being in those language files, This fact actually dissapoints me, It means we will get S3 with less then expected, Or perhaps Scawen was simply using 'S3' mode as a way to show the VWS? Who knows really, But i hope it isnt the first.

[Becky Rose]

:shrug:

I don't care about S3. I care only about the product i've got sitting on my hard disk right now. I've not played much for a fair while, but I essentially had 2 years of play and 3 years of community out of a game that cost £24. I've probably used more than that in forum bandwidth alone.

I ain't complaining.

Why so many people hang on promises of what's around the corner i'll never know. Make the most of what you have and learn to appreciate it, instead of longing for things that don't exist.

Concepts have no value.

[Shotglass]

It means we will get S3 with less then expected

do you really think that all eric did since the s2 release in 05 was 2 cars and a few interiors?

[S14 DRIFT]

Who cares anymore really, it's a game. Most of you people are very sad sad little people if you worry so much about a game.

[mathew4445]

do you really think that all eric did since the s2 release in 05 was 2 cars and a few interiors?

No, But im hoping the stuff he did do was for S2, Not S3.

[Storm_Cloud]

Maybe if Duke Nukem Forever had been released in stages then it would have been finished. Basically we (S2 licensed drivers) have paid for two thirds of a game which is only one and a half thirds finished. With a normal development cycle nothing wold have been released yet.

[jaxx751]

Common cut the crap. I'm no pro driver and still got to make all the cars that I possesed to oversteer (all FWD with exeption of my Karts) and could keep them easily. It's much more unrealistic that you don' t feel a car like in R-Factor. Suddenly the car slips away and there's almost nothing you can do. I never had such a behaviour in real life. I always felt the car. And that's a thing LFS transmits to me. Ok I don't tried NETKar Pro and I-Racing, heard they're also good in that thing but I don' t think LFS is bad in terms of feeling

Could not agree more. I tried rFactor because I wanted to see how it compared to LFS(now that my favorite racing server, CTRA, is offline). It was horrible. LFS has force feedback spot on, and along with the audio and visual cues to the game, I think that it delivers something that is hard to match. I've never really felt disconnected from the car in LFS. I have yet to try NetKar or iRacing, but I'm sure iRacing is pretty good.

...We'll see where everything goes.

[Danny LFS]

All LFS would need is few more tracks, because it's hard to make a good league with just 6 tracks (and pls don't talk to me about layouts now).

I agree with what migf1 said, but LFS has 7 tracks, not 6.;)

[Shadowww]

I agree with what migf1 said, but LFS has 7 tracks, not 6.;)
Autocross isn't a track, really.

[Danny LFS]

Autocross is a testing area, so it is a track for me.

[psychometalist]

Autocross is a testing area, so it is a track for me.

No, it's a track for S2 users:razz:

[Gills4life]

Autocross is a testing area, so it is a track for me.

No it isn't! :razz:

Beaten to it. D:

[Fuse5]

VW Scirocco might come out this year, even though it was expected last year. But break-off damage? Maybe in 5 years.

Luckily for LFS, there is still no alternative for LFS, being affordable and realistic SIM. But someone big, such as EA might just put 50 millions into developing a realistic sim.

Firstly, where on earth do you take your facts from? You are speculating based on your personal emotions and/or disappointment.
This is yet another moan thread, simply because you are addicted to LFS. If you weren't, you'd be well off with playing other games meanwhile, living a successful life and coming back to LFS whenever new content is released.

You being so pissed off about how devs are leading their business, which has nothing to do with you, is indicating that you should really alienate yourself from LFS and focus on other things.

Or was your intention creating a flamewar and getting attention?

[Vykos69]

Yes, there is a small group of active players. How many of you are there? 50? 100? Anyway, you are not paying the devs any money, there must be new sales for another 10 years or more. Is that gonna happen?

just do some maths, look some pics and you know 2 things: They already earned a very good amount of LFS, they are not spending it on bling bling, teh worldwide Racing Simcommunity is not fully equipped with LFS (actually maybe 1/10 got it by now) => A lot more buyers possible, enough time and money to go on with the way they do.

[Riel]

jYes, there is a small group of active players. How many of you are there? 50? 100? Anyway, you are not paying the devs any money, there must be new sales for another 10 years or more. Is that gonna happen


We have 35 active players only in our (small) absolute-beginners league ? :shrug:
Beginners ! As in New Racers, digging everything that is inside S2, learning, having GREAT fun every sunday evening ...

[tristancliffe]

I'm an optimist, but I don't think we'll see S2 Final... I think Scawen is secretly working on S3, and we'll jump straight to that in 2010. S2 will recieve a patch or two until then, but I think they're working on S3 in parallel, which is why S2 seems largely ignored.

I am happy to be proven both wrong and right though. Just a hunch.

[ajp71]

I'm an optimist, but I don't think we'll see S2 Final... I think Scawen is secretly working on S3, and we'll jump straight to that in 2010. S2 will recieve a patch or two until then, but I think they're working on S3 in parallel, which is why S2 seems largely ignored.

I am happy to be proven both wrong and right though. Just a hunch.

That would be the best case scenario, I think S2 could be released very soon in its current state, whilst not exactly what Scawen has said he wanted it to be I think its in a polished enough state to call finished. At least the Sirocco and little updates distract people from moaning about when S3 will be out. I don't see a lot of point in perfecting S2 now, it is very good but the graphics are obsolete and the cars and tracks are in need of a major shake up.

[Glenn67]

This thread reminds me of another http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3643 I was suprised to see how old it is, just seems like yesterday :x :D

[Riel]

That would be the best case scenario, I think S2 could be released very soon in its current state, whilst not exactly what Scawen has said he wanted it to be I think its in a polished enough state to call finished. At least the Sirocco and little updates distract people from moaning about when S3 will be out. I don't see a lot of point in perfecting S2 now, it is very good but the graphics are obsolete and the cars and tracks are in need of a major shake up.


Oh please keep the graphics this way so my old sim-hardware still pulls it off :D

[Mille Sabords]

This thread reminds me of another http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3643 I was suprised to see how old it is, just seems like yesterday :x :D

Good reading, thanks!

Maybe someone could quote a few of Scawen's responses back then, still valid?
I don't have motivation to educate right now. Patience and the ability to enjoy stuff at a leisurely pace are lost it seems.
Reminds me of a song by Queen: I want it all...and I want it now.

[student]

A lot of good replies.

I guess my opening post is a pessimistic view at the situation. Maybe there will be some nice updates sometimes soon, LFS-soon :))), which is 1-2 years.

[Gutholz]

The Duke just DNF as well. Its a sign!
I guess LFS development will continue but I feel really stupid now for getting S2 so late :shrug:

[polepositiondriver]

I've been following Live for speed S3 updates and I personally think that if people are still playing S2 then releasing S3 at the wrong time could work against them. So far S2 is still personally the best Simulator Game/community online, they don't really have any direct competition.

What I think will really get more interested in Live For Speed would be a greater selection of tracks, I don't mind the S2 version at all, just a bit more variety would bring new members.

[Shadowww]

Talking about S2 not going final...

We call it «beta» because it's beta than nothing.

[The Very End]

Scawen said that there were only the bugs and some few things that he wanted to fix / implent in the game before the game goes final.

I also hope the scenario is as Tristan describes, that they secretly has been working on additional stuff while polishing S2. Would somewhat pretty much fit in on all the questions what the devs has done on all these years. But again, we don't know, it's just speculations.

While we're on it, maybe they have been working on the rallypack? :hyper:

[W1ldPort75]

Who cares anymore really, it's a game. Most of you people are very sad sad little people if you worry so much about a game.

You hold your tongue young man !! (in this case fingers) :D

[obsolum]

I've been following Live for speed S3 updates
What do you mean? :really:

[tristancliffe]

What do you mean? :really:
He means he's been keeping up to date with news, announcements and progress with S3 - presumably for his e-magazine.

The fact there hasn't been any isn't the point - he's been following it, and is ready to write a 100 word article on it the moment something comes to light. His proverbial pen has been poised over the proverbial paper for several years now. He hasn't washed for months just in case he misses it.

[webdigga]

He means he's been keeping up to date with news, announcements and progress with S3 - presumably for his e-magazine.

The fact there hasn't been any isn't the point - he's been following it, and is ready to write a 100 word article on it the moment something comes to light. His proverbial pen has been poised over the proverbial paper for several years now. He hasn't washed for months just in case he misses it.

:clapclap:

[Concept-X]

What would have happened, if Simbin buy the engine of LFS instead of ISI's one...:)

[SamH]

I have a vague recollection of the guy at SimBin saying in an interview that he approached the LFS devs, but that they weren't interested in going to work for him. That's a good 2 or 3 years ago.. pretty sure that's how it went.

[Shadowww]

Now I believe in magic powers of SamH.

Dude, do you check EVERY thread? :D

[Nadeo4441]

Scawen said that there were only the bugs and some few things that he wanted to fix / implent in the game before the game goes final.


The remaining GTR updates are part of the needed updates for LFS S2 to lose the ALPHA tag. Some other updates that should mostly be done to get out of ALPHA are :

- Improve collision physics
- Break off wings instead of bending
- Finish and release Westhill updates
- Improve track shadow rendering
- RB4 / UF1 / UFR interiors

Should :/

[SamH]

:/

That doesn't mean "won't ever" any more than it means "will, guaranteed". Just accept that what will come is what will come. There's nothing "END OF THE WORLD IS NIGH" about LFS. :shrug:

[Nadeo4441]

I know, im just a little disappointed because of 5 months...

[Luke.S]

If you think about it. At the moment they are mainly working on physics and damage and things like that. So when it comes to s3 i recon it will mainly be new cars and tracks.

[Joris]

I'm happy LFS is not a democracy. If it is not what you want it to be, just leave it. That's what I did with many of the established sims without spamming any of their forums.

[Shotglass]

There's nothing "END OF THE WORLD IS NIGH" about LFS. :shrug:

well theyve got till 2012... not a lot all things considered

[eRaptor]

Wait, wait, I'm getting something.....my keen powers of deduction are telling me that this thread will probably get flamed, spammed and locked.

Humm... If you decide to open a fortune teller "shop" I will have to remember not to spend a cent there... :D

[senn]

This thread reminds me of another http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3643 I was suprised to see how old it is, just seems like yesterday :x :D


This thread needs more of what that thread has. Lock.

[The Very End]

That thread is close to 4 years old :shrug:
Either way, I cross my fingers that they are currently rolling out the Scirocco + bug fix in next patch, then they go S2 final. Meanwhile, Eric has used 4 years to create some new tracks for us, that we might will get news about this year.. I hope..
If there really is no new track under development or ready for release after 4 years of work..well then...well no.

[ignission]

Scawen said recently that there are going to be some good releases for LFS this year, so considering we are now in May, the more impatient of those here shouldn't have to wait much longer.

[The Very End]

Dude, you joined in 2009! :razz: !!!

When that is said, yes, and I am really looking forward to see what they reveals, they uses to surprise us every now and then.

[Boris Lozac]

The only info we need is did Eric worked on anything all these years and is he even still on the LFS project. That's all you need to know regarding wheather or not there will be S3..

[The Very End]

We do know that he is still in project, since there has been new layouts of the tracks aswell as some new cars, aswell as the post he did on the forum some month back.

I know we shal not feed the n00bs (aka me and others), but a little teaser of what they have done to the trackside of the game the last 4 years would be awesome. By all means the So update and BL update were great, aswell as the two layouts, but I am just curious if there is something new, completely new coming allong while speaking of tracks.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

We do know that he is still in project, since there has been new layouts of the tracks aswell as some new cars, aswell as the post he did on the forum some month back.

Yeah I wouldn't go there. Last time y'all started beaking about his progress, he showed up here (for the first time in years), told some folks to pull their heads out of their asses and "shut yo faise bitches" (paraphrase), locked the thread and slammed the door.

We don't want that again; artists can be sensitive tempermental people.

[mcintyrej]

Yeah I wouldn't go there. Last time y'all started beaking about his progress, he showed up here (for the first time in years), told some folks to pull their heads out of their asses and "shut yo faise bitches" (paraphrase), locked the thread and slammed the door.

We don't want that again; artists can be sensitive tempermental people.

I'm not surprised he did - considering all people were doing was pretty much calling him a sh*t developer who did nothing. I'm pretty sure if I had put work into something and someone said that about me - I'd be pretty angry too!

[The Very End]

If you as an artist, aswell having a forum, canot learn to filter out the usefull critism with the bad ones, well then you have much to learn. Having a forum and beliving everyone will be "oh everything is super super super" for 8 years, then your pretty silly if you ask me. Now, I do not say we are going to call them names or call them shit, I am just saying that they should know better then letting their feelings go out in a verbal attack on users, he as everyone else should know that it would lead to no good and just really make the situation worse.

Best thing is to ignore the whiners that canot provide valuable critism and feedback, while maybe sometimes answering for the valid critism. Saying everything is secret gets old after soon or 8 years.

Edit : But of course it's allowed to get anoyed and reply sharp back, I am not saying that. But the post we talk about was rather a bad choise of words and answers to the community. For all we do know he can have xx number of tracks and cars on his HDD, but I find it questionable that he goes out with a ragepost like that. He could simply do the normal one just saying he still is here, things are ok, tell the whiners to take it easy and aswell giving us a hint of what he is doing or just tell it's something secret waiting to be revealed.

[Boris Lozac]

Can someone please quote Eric for me, i missed that post of his :) Maybe on PM if it's problem here..

[The Very End]

It's getting really boring reading these complaints about why new LFS content isn't released at a rate which suits you. I'm not sure what these posters think they can accomplish, but they'd have to be complete idiots to not realise that they won't change a thing. It's madness to keep doing the same things over and over again and expect a different result everytime.

I really dont feel the need to justify the way or even the pace at which I work to anyone. The conditions I have to work in and the tools I have to work with affect only me, so I will deal with things my own way. I would say I'm sorry if you don't like it, but the truth is I'm not sorry. I am my own boss. I don't answer to anyone. Get over it.

If you don't like LFS or the speed of it's development....or even the fact that we are entitled to live a life outside of LFS, you have the free will to leave and play something else.

If you prefer to stick around and moan endlessly about things you can't change or encourage some kind of weird witch hunt against your least favourite Dev,......maybe you need to check your mental health or get a life. LFS can't help you with that, no matter how good it gets.

That one.

[Antman]

want there a track in miami what was never realeased it says so on wikipedia?

[The Very End]

That track was an early version of the SO track.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

If you as an artist, aswell having a forum, canot learn to filter out the usefull critism with the bad ones, well then you have much to learn.

That's only true to a point. IE I think Scawen has too much patience with this forum TBH. Too much patience, and too much secrecy. Some people just like to know things because it's just plain interesting to have insight, and some people want to know things so they can bitch about them, no matter what they are.

I am just saying that they should know better then letting their feelings go out in a verbal attack on users, he as everyone else should know that it would lead to no good and just really make the situation worse. . Screw that mentality. It's the modern "I am customer hear me roar" bullshit that companies have come to lay down and take, and "customer service" has to put up with it - I think that's crap. I was happy to read Eric's post actually. And I think they're entitled to say whatever the hell they want - this forum sure does, and it shouldn't be a one way street.


But the post we talk about was rather a bad choise of words and answers to the community.

No it wasn't :shrug:

It was refreshing and honest; not some politically correct mumbo-jumbo.

[Matrixi]

Screw that mentality. It's the modern "I am customer hear me roar" bullshit that companies have come to lay down and take, and "customer service" has to put up with it - I think that's crap.
I guess things are fairly different across the great pond. Customer service here in Finland is sometimes pure crap. "Customer is always wrong, we are always right" is the mindset that is going on in most companies in here, and it's kind of sad to see people actually wanting something like that. It gets pretty tiring after enduring it for over 20 years, I can tell you that much. I'd love to have customer service that wouldn't always fight back at me claiming they know everything better.

Not that this really has much to do with Erics post, but I think that being his first public post after all these years, it could have gone a bit better with more thought put in to it. Bashing your customers isn't pretty, no matter are they whinging assholes or not as long as they have purchased your product and given you money for it.

[NoFear1989]

LFS Comunity its good :D but i dont like S2 Users who says You are DEMO :( What the point this ? i dont have cracked version of game, this game game dont have cracks and otcher inleagal stuff, ufff :x.

Let's get real, there won't be S3 ?

Good point S2 still beter, i dont need new part of this game.

[The Very End]

I guess things are fairly different across the great pond. Customer service here in Finland is sometimes pure crap. "Customer is always wrong, we are always right" is the mindset that is going on in most companies in here, and it's kind of sad to see people actually wanting something like that. It gets pretty tiring after enduring it for over 20 years, I can tell you that much. I'd love to have customer service that wouldn't always fight back at me claiming they know everything better.

Not that this really has much to do with Erics post, but I think that being his first public post after all these years, it could have gone a bit better with more thought put in to it. Bashing your customers isn't pretty, no matter are they whinging assholes or not as long as they have purchased your product and given you money for it.

I totally agree with you on this mate. Well put.

[Boris Lozac]

That one.

I gotta say it is a bit "rude", well not rude, but if people are fu*king sticking with your project for so long, they deserve a couple of words now and then. I mean, WE are the ones that made them "work at their own pace", "work without worying about alarm clocks", "to be their own bosses" etc.. :really:

It's their baby, i get it, but people "moan" cause they love this game so much, they wouldn't be sticking with it so long, and defend it fanatically, if that wasn't the case. :shrug:

If i had a project like LFS, which made me live confrontably from it, not have a boss, etc, i would be very greatfull to the people who stick with it for so long, and i would write them some explanation now and then.. which Scawen IS doing, but Eric doesn't have to be a caveman and be mute on us for 6 years..

[Byku]

OMg... this thread is going in the wrong direction...:x

[NoFear1989]

Byku yes yes, dont talk about something NEW in LFS.

Scirroco threads DEAD

Now S3 thread (Ganon)MUST DIE

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

"Customer is always wrong, we are always right" is the mindset that is going on in most companies in here, and it's kind of sad to see people actually wanting something like that.

Whoa, where did I say I wanted what you described? :shrug:

Careful of the context here as well, nobody in their right mind could ever accuse LFS team of bad customer service. They take a lot of input from this community and actually have conversations about things, at least in the past. 5 years ago things were a lot different though.

What I am talking about is the mentality that customers are having something owing to them, over and above what they agreed to pay for.

Example: there things I would like in LFS, and I couldn't pretend for a second that the visible development pace hasn't slowed to a crawl. That's fine, I can feel that way, but I also know that I have no right to expect anything from the devs. I bought S2, and I have a version thereof - end of story.

Thankfully, there's another good sim to have fun with on the market for a change whilst I wait for further developments here! :D

Not that this really has much to do with Erics post, but I think that being his first public post after all these years, it could have gone a bit better with more thought put in to it. Bashing your customers isn't pretty, no matter are they whinging assholes or not as long as they have purchased your product and given you money for it.

Nah, you still don't have perspective on it. Here:

a: yay! Cool product, can I buy?
b: Sure, it's not done, but will be someday. ok?
a: Great! Gimme!
b: Sign here.
(1 year later)
b: here's the next peice of the project, since you paid, you get it free of course
a: Sweet! thanks
(1 year later still)
a: Hmm, this isn't done
b: er, yeah we told you that. It will be one day.
(1 year later again)
a: GRR, THERE's no more cars to drive. wtf?
b: uh, who said there's be more cars?
a: Arhg.. lazy tards, don't you know I paid for this?
b: mm, right - and you have it.
a: MRGrgrlrlr - what have you been doing the last 6 mos FFS?
b: Huh?

[Matrixi]

No, no, no, no, no, that's not what I'm saying at all. I have understood the perspective of LFS as well as any other old schooler here. We have what we have, devs owe us nothing yadda-yadda, yeah, that much is clear as sky. Has always been.

I was talking about how Eric presented himself for the first time ever for the whole LFSF community. Your A-B example doesn't work for this either, since this was the first time Eric ever spoke to us! :D

[hrtburnout]

This is a very interesting discussion. I'm not going to write a long reply though.

Your A-B example doesn't work for this either, since this was the first time Eric ever spoke to us! :D

Eric posted on RSC every now and then, back in the old days. :scratchch

[Matrixi]

Ah, that could be. I always disliked RSC and didn't bother posting or spending much time there. I was mainly talking about LFSF. :)

Was going to read what has been said there, but knowing RSC, it's down as always! :D

[Joris]

Nah, you still don't have perspective on it. Here:

a: yay! Cool product, can I buy?
b: Sure, it's not done, but will be someday. ok?
a: Great! Gimme!
b: Sign here.
(1 year later)
b: here's the next peice of the project, since you paid, you get it free of course
a: Sweet! thanks
(1 year later still)
a: Hmm, this isn't done
b: er, yeah we told you that. It will be one day.
(1 year later again)
a: GRR, THERE's no more cars to drive. wtf?
b: uh, who said there's be more cars?
a: Arhg.. lazy tards, don't you know I paid for this?
b: mm, right - and you have it.
a: MRGrgrlrlr - what have you been doing the last 6 mos FFS?
b: Huh?

Excellent summary! :thumb:

[SamH]

Must admit, I find the discussion interesting too, but that's because I've worked as a business process developer/engineer for most of my working life.

I guess I straddle both camps to an extent. LFS belongs, lock stock and barrel, to the devs. It's theirs to screw up any which way they choose. It's delusional to believe that, having spent £24 on a licence, we are collectively owners of LFS's destiny. Nevertheless, I see this erroneous theme repeat frequently here on the forum.

For programmatic reasons that I'm not even slightly knowledgeable about, the external view of LFS development is that it has indeed slowed to a crawl. The only thing I know for sure is that this doesn't mean that development has. It's entirely possible that Scawen has been repositioning code to enable more rapid development and deployment of future features. I don't know this for sure, but when I postulate, this is what makes the most sense to me, outside the internal workings and peering through the smoky glass of LFS development.

In keeping with my determination to have my own opinion, as distinct from that of "var moderator.lfsforum=='fanboy';", if I were asked advice by the devs, I'd recommend a regime of "we're alive" communiqués during quiet periods. That said, I totally understand the reason why Scawen et al have been quiet - they really did burn themselves by trying to bring much-requested information into the public domain.

I just don't think the lesson to be learned needs to result in an absolute on/off infoStream. Vykos suggested a "media manager" might be a good idea, and in my opinion he's probably right. LFS's current business model is 0% external marketing and 100% word of mouth. My opinion (and only my opinion) is that regarding the existing, paid-up community as a burden, rather than as an asset, is not healthy for the current model. Saying that, I must stress that I've had absolutely no indication at any point from any of the devs that they DO perceive the community as a burden. I'm postulating, nothing more.

But, back to an earlier point, it's not my business it's the devs. It's theirs entirely, exclusively, and it's for them to make their own calls. As long as I'm happy (and I am happy), I'll continue to support the devs in their decisions.

Or...

What BBT says. :)

[ignission]

Dude, you joined in 2009! :razz: !!!

I did indeed and I'm certainly not stamping my feet for a new release, I was merely pointing out to those who seem to believe nothing new is going to happen that one of the developers has stated that there are going to be some good releases this year :thumb:

More fool me maybe? :razz:

[SamH]

More fool me maybe? :razz:

No, not at all I don't think. Scawen's very cautious about putting anything out into the community. I think we can be confident that, barring catastrophes of significant magnitude (including the earth opening up and swallowing the British Isles), we'll see a stream of new bits and pieces this year :)

[amp88]

No, not at all I don't think. Scawen's very cautious about putting anything out into the community. I think we can be confident that, barring catastrophes of significant magnitude (including the earth opening up and swallowing the British Isles), we'll see a stream of new bits and pieces this year :)

Scirrocco was supposed to be released the week starting 19th December last year (5 months ago). We had the announcement here and on the main site. We had the YouTube video. It still isn't here. Scavier like to use the phrase "at some point" when they talk about updating content and fixing bugs or issues. The community has been getting smaller lately because people are moving to greener pastures. LFS might still be the best sim overall in terms of physics, but a lot of people seem to prefer to have a go with a slightly inferior sim that has continual updates and improvements.

[SamH]

Given that there's actually a lot of good information about the whys and wherefores regarding the delayed Scirocco, there's no excuse for blatant oversimplification of the current patch situation. I find it rather irritating, actually.

[ignission]

No, not at all I don't think. Scawen's very cautious about putting anything out into the community. I think we can be confident that, barring catastrophes of significant magnitude (including the earth opening up and swallowing the British Isles), we'll see a stream of new bits and pieces this year :)

Although I've joined this community very late in the day - so forgive me if I come across a little naive - from the posts I've read from Scawen, he seems like a really stand up guy and I'm more than happy to give the Dev's the benefit of the doubt.

Let's see what the year brings is all I say :)

[amp88]

Given that there's actually a lot of good information about the whys and wherefores regarding the delayed Scirocco, there's no excuse for blatant oversimplification of the current patch situation. I find it rather irritating, actually.

Why make the announcement in the first place if there are actually problems that warrant 5+ months of delays? Either there was a last minute discovery of a raft of problems that required fixing or the original deadline was never going to be met and Scavier just wanted to get some extra buzz going around Christmas. I think you can probably guess which camp I'm in.

[zeugnimod]

The community has been getting smaller lately

Has it?

The activity on the forum definately but the people racing online not so much. :shrug:

Why make the announcement in the first place if there are actually problems that warrant 5+ months of delays?

IIRC, those problems were only discovered during the public testing when people with different hardware than the beta testers reported bugs that apparently were hard to fix. Add to that the fact that Scawen moved house and had problems with establishing a working internet connection and you have a pretty long delay.

[SamH]

Yeah, I can guess which camp you're in. :rolleyes:

Don't have any time for that mentality tbh, sorry an' all that.

[mclarenmatt]

Scavier just wanted to get some extra buzz going around Christmas.

Hmmm never thought of that :scratchch

Would make a bit of sense, but I don't think the Dev's would do something like that.

They have already said they could earn more money doing thing's elsewhere and I doubt they would "let us down" like that without a valid reason.

[S14 DRIFT]

Hmmm never thought of that :scratchch

Would make a bit of sense, but I don't think the Dev's would do something like that.

They have already said they could earn more money doing thing's elsewhere and I doubt they would "let us down" like that without a valid reason.

I very much doubt they care about "letting us down" or not.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I just don't think the lesson to be learned needs to result in an absolute on/off infoStream.

Dagnabbit I knew I'd have to compliment you on a perfect post eventually!

This part especially. I personally think that the Devs need to be looked at as human. Sounds obvious right? Seems to go over the head of a lot of people. Beyond that, Scawen seems like a really great guy. Just watching his demeanor & voice in the video he released, his hawt wife has the "quiet & sexy" look etc (lol). Whenever he posts he's pretty much always pleasant and composed. The problem is that they've been burned by wanting to appease us, and he's not willing for that to be a remote risk anymore. That's why the idiot saying he mentioned the VW to get a rise out of us is an idiot (in the truest sense, not just colloquially; he really doesn't understand).

But I agree with Sam. Ideally I wish they would just talk about stuff simply because I am interested to know what it's like developing a sim, what kind of research he likes to do and so forth. I'm not waiting with baited breath for a release since there's another decent simracing outlet at the moment. Bottom line is I really don't think their skin is as thick as we think it is. I don't think they're crying themselves to sleep or anything of course, but really - bitching at them isn't going to do anything but piss them off, whether they tell you where to go like they should (Eric) or they just (mostly) hide it well and occassionally appear to reassure they're not dead (Scawen).

Hmmm never thought of that :scratchch

Would make a bit of sense, but I don't think the Dev's would do something like that.

They have already said they could earn more money doing thing's elsewhere and I doubt they would "let us down" like that without a valid reason.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I very much doubt they care about "letting us down" or not.

Then you can't read (at least not well).

[S14 DRIFT]

Then you can't read (at least not well).

Sorry because I don't think LFS is perfect in every single ****ing way makes me unable to read?

Either way as I've said many times before IDC about a patch or an update.

[SparkyDave]

Then you can't read (at least not well).

Or write (without profanity)

This tread shows the LFS communitys worst aspects, people with a little knowlage and big mouths are making the rest of us look bad to any newcomers here.

when the patch is released, maybe a delayed version for anyone flagged for foul language or abusiveness, make them wait a few days extra :)

SD.

[S14 DRIFT]

Or write (without profanity)

Damn you got me again. :D

This thread shows the LFS communitys worst aspects, people with a little knowlage and big mouths are making the rest of us look bad to any newcomers here.

when the patch is released, maybe a delayed version for anyone flagged for foul language or abusiveness, make them wait a few days extra :)

SD.

Fixed for you. :shy: :razz:

[NightShift]

Or...

Wow I'm amazed. For the most part that post is something I could have written (of course in a less beautiful english) So many opinions in common, and I never ever suspected about that through the past 6 months, how blind I am :tilt:

[amp88]

That's why the idiot saying he mentioned the VW to get a rise out of us is an idiot (in the truest sense, not just colloquially; he really doesn't understand).

1) When I post a message on this forum, I will do my very best to write in a polite manner and not use foul language and / or insult an individual or group of people.

Play nice.

My post about the VWS delay was a direct response to SamH's post saying that basically whenever Scavier said they would do something they actually did it. In the case of the VWS they haven't delivered yet and there's been a 5 month delay with no end in sight. I have no doubt the VWS will be released, but how far behind schedule will it be (their schedule, remember)? 6 months? 12 months?

I do understand the situation. I've had an S2 license for years, I've been active in the community (both in the racing side and the organisational side) for the vast majority of that time. I have spent a lot of time loving LFS and the community. I was not just bitching for the sake of it. I've seen how the development goes, how the number of online racers waxes and wanes with every new patch. I hope LFS continues for a long time, but with alternatives like iRacing, GTR and rFactor people have more options open to them if they want sim/semi-sim action than they did a few years back. LFS isn't in the position it once was, and it's my feeling that it has been losing and will continue to lose its community unless the pace of development (or the pace of fixes/new content) increases. We've heard Scavier say work is going on in the background, but until we see the fruits of that labour the work doesn't attract new people or keep the restless current ones.

[SamH]

Play nice.
With respect, BBT made the distinction between the colloquial (insult) and the literal (doesn't understand) and indicated that he meant the latter.

And furthermore, implying that Scawen scammed the community with a direct, manipulative lie is anything but "playing nice". As BBT rightly pointed out, the devs are humans. They don't deserve to be maligned the way you seem to enjoy maligning them and I have to be honest, you don't inspire me to jump to your defence by pulling that kinda crap.

My post about the VWS delay was a direct response to SamH's post saying that basically whenever Scavier said they would do something they actually did it.

I think you'll find that Scawen did exactly as he said he would - he delayed the release of the Scirocco because of problems that came to light during the public testing phase. He said he would delay it and he did. No grounds for complaint, in my opinion. He gave several very clear reasons for the delay, too, so you can't pretend that we were all kept in the dark either.

You can, of course, pretend that he just failed to do what he said he would and didn't give any reasons, but that'd just be a lie. I won't help anyone perpetuate that kind of lie on this forum.

[marzman]

I very much doubt they care about "letting us down" or not.
With posts like that (and the above, so i've deleted your nick from the quote since it's not personal) the question is more if they don't feel the community lets them down. That's a legit reason to quit project LFS.

Just let them do there thing and enjoy LFS as is. There is just a new testpatch released by the way, that could not have made its self.

[MAGGOT]

I very much doubt they care about "letting us down" or not.

Then you can't read (at least not well).

Sorry because I don't think LFS is perfect in every single ****ing way makes me unable to read?

Either way as I've said many times before IDC about a patch or an update.

Obviously BBT was right, as you totally missed the point he was labouriously trying to make.

[Gil07]

Why do people always have to have opinions and make theories of things they don't know a thing about?

[S14 DRIFT]

Hmm, perhaps I can better explain myself.

Let's go back to Christmas.

"VW Scirocco is coming out blah blah blah".

All the hype came. Forum was a buzz with "new" energy, excitement and joy.

A few days later "We'll have to delay it blah blah blah and give you a good patch early 2009.."

People started kicking off. Cast your minds back and some of you will remember I was one of the few (at the time) that stood by the Devs and wished them well and reassured them it wasn't a problem..

Either way, a few months had passed without much. Then all of a sudden a thread or two pops up about a house move.. Again, I supported the Devs and didn't have a problem with it. Infact I just skimmed read the thread thought "Yup it's going to be delayed :rolleyes:" and got back on to other things that actually matter in life.

I've been involved in many different ongoing gaming projects as a player and a community member and delayed patches and updates are nothing new to me. I'm not like some of the people that sit on LFS Forum spamming F5 looking for updates and new releases.. Equally I'm not a demo user asking for more or, again, a demo user moaning about the Scirocco not being released (nothing personal to demo users mind..!)

Many months have passed since then (we're almost half way through the year) and as of yet nothing's been released except for a small test patch that adds nothing of value, except a little directional arrow and a few bug fixes. Being a part time LFS'er I have obviously used it since this test patch and report nothing back that requires any form of attention.

Anyway, my point is that LFS desperately needs a big once over. It needs a few more licensed cars (at the very least some new ones!) and it DESPERATELY needs a few real tracks. Whether it's going to happen or not, it cannot be doubted that if we had some real licensed products the income that LFS would create would be 3 fold.

As (was in Amp88?) said, other products have come along that represent more to the average sim racer.

iRacing, yes it's expensive but you can see the development of it and you can feel it's evolving. It feels like a 2008/2009 product. Basically, it feels new. There are real cars and real tracks, etc etc.

Equally, the GTR/Race 07/rFactor games, physics wise not perfect, but with some tweaks to the settings and a few mods, they aren't bloody far off it. What's more, I don't see many other games that have brake temperature, water AND oil temperature, tyre temperatures and the like all modelled. It feels like a 2008 product if you have the right updates, but even so, I went on Race 07/GTR Evo the other day and with the HDR mod it still looks and feels like a fresh product. And what's more, it was fun blasting round the Nordeschliefe, in a 450bhp GT car in the rain. It's almost infinitely customizable and even as standard comes with real cars and tracks.

LFS feels (and this is being honest) like a 2005/2006 product. The graphics are just a start. Some little bugs remain after years and years (example being the barriers, even some random guy managed to fix it!) and it just "feels" dead.

Some of you (and this is in no means towards anyone in particular) can sit there in your chairs (http://www.autobahnpower.com/images/office_cr1.jpg) and talk down to people that play racing simulators for fun, who don't take it as seriously as you.. who aren't as quick as you.. who prefer other software to you ("omg you play rfactor fgt ur noob.. WTF GTR SUCKS STFU.. OMG IRACING IS GEY STFU), but at the end of the day, 99% chance is you drive a 1.2 saxo in RL and couldn't control a real powerslide to save your life (no pun intended). Why don't you open your mind as well..

I've noticed it, (and some others have as well) that there's something just "off" with the LFS Forum as of late. The community seems to have gone into segregation.. In one corner we have all the super fast people hardcore LFS fans. Then we have the (endangered species) regular forum goer. Then we have people that always "out to get someone". Then we have the people that think LFS is completely perfect, or (and this is quite hard to explain) those that will shun anyone who questions the Devs, who has doubt in the project or complains about something. We're all guilty of being a member of the above at at least one point or another, myself included... and that isn't helping. It feels like a dead community and a dying game. Although I do hope I'm wrong.

While we're on the subjects of the Devs, I've recently started to doubt them (whisper it) for some of their actions, such as banning AMB in game and telling him if he buys another licence, that'd get banned as well. Some of their posts (not many though) are also borderline rude. Your project or not, we're paying users as most of us have paid our money..

Now let me just put myself back into perspective. I still play LFS and still am reasonably happy with it. It's (fairly) stable compared to other software and I haven't even "completed" it yet (IE drive every combo blah blah blah), but just occasionally I go to "car select" and can't decide what pick because they're all so bloody samey samey. Same for the tracks.... LFS's physics engine is fairly good and it would just be nice to be able to blast round a RL track that actually has bumps...

I've looked at some of these edited vobs and while most of them are terrible, some are actually pretty good and a very welcome change. Although I can proudly say I haven't installed them simply because I cba to sign up to a website (and the consequent spam) to download it.

May I reiterate I'm not bothered at all by the delay of the Scirocco or any consequent update. There's just something amiss, that's all.

[bunder9999]

While we're on the subjects of the Devs, I've recently started to doubt them (whisper it) for some of their actions, such as banning AMB in game and telling him if he buys another licence, that'd get banned as well. Some of their posts (not many though) are also borderline rude. Your project or not, we're paying users as most of us have paid our money..

while i don't agree with their methods, seeing as rockclan, a known speedhacker is still allowed to play LFS... amb was a numbnuts for creating many forum accounts to constantly annoy the moderators. as such, he got exactly what he deserved. if i remember correctly, he was told when he stopped being a nubcake, the ban could possibly be lifted.

edit: hrm, maybe i'm confusing amb with someone else... i forget what dumb things he did to get banned...

[MAGGOT]

..blah blah blah...:soapbox:

..After all that, you still managed to miss the point.

[S14 DRIFT]

while i don't agree with their methods, seeing as rockclan, a known speedhacker is still allowed to play LFS... amb was a numbnuts for creating many forum accounts to constantly annoy the moderators. as such, he got exactly what he deserved. if i remember correctly, he was told when he stopped being a nubcake, the ban could possibly be lifted.

The point about rockclan being able to play is EXACTLY the sort of thing I mean. As for AMB, well one could argue how can he stop being a nubcake if he's not allowed to play. Besides, forum bans should never extend into gameplay bans on any game.. it's just not right.

AND EVEN IF(!!) it does, he should be allowed to purchase another licence without having to worry if that gets caught as well. All the bloody speedhackers can do this. It's unfair and unjust. A blanket rule needs to be set out!

..After all that, you still managed to miss the point.

tl;dr

[imthebestracerthereis]

<extra long snip>
QFT + Excellent points.

[MadCat360]

Smaller teams with lesser budgets and resources have completed far larger projects than "S3". :) There is plenty of hope for LFS's expansion... I'm sure it will come quicker than most of you are expecting.

[510N3D]

-snip-

You are yet failing to understand the concept of LFS. See at LFS as a sine curve kind of thing where there are ups and downs regarding development progression and community activities at the same time.

While it may be true or obvious (for you) and the records are showing both "types" at a rather low level at the moment, the golden days will return eventually
(oddly enough though, there are still about a thousand players online each day, and that for the past couple of years already, iirc :shrug:).

Not as much for some of those who are actually around for quite some time now but as with everything in life, that's a normal or typical cycle. Once you got used to something, you'll get bored of it most likely at some point, regardless of how much time you have actually invested, motivation you can come up with and perhaps even at some point, how much it'll be updated/ fixed/ renewed et cetera.

Now im also failing to understand why LFS needs to have more licenced cars and/ or tracks. Whats wrong about heading into a different direction? I mean not that i wouldn't want to have the nordschleife in LFS but thats not the point (i already got other games for that and the experience wont differ too much i guess). LFS is different and most likely also successful because of its unique content. I mean, at the point LFS is using real life tracks and even more licenced cars, it will get commercialized and is at some point, not that different anymore, compared to all the other products that are available.

But maybe its going to happen anyway, at least when modding tools are officially available (/rumours). I do hope that it's not an inevitable step to take really and/ or maybe the devs already have got or will have a solution for this "issue" and im wasting my time right now.

Besides, the so called competition hasn't popped up just recently, most of the games are around for at least half a decade or even longer. So i really dont understand the fuzz about people migrating (or making use of other games simultaneously...)

Your opion about this community is also way too much stereotyped thinking. The signature of yours and i quote "You know what I hate most? People that think LFS is totaly perfect.." is underlining my statement. There is most likely more to what you are personally witnessing and all the people can't be categorized and put into just a few "drawers". Im sorry if you feel the way you do about this community but its is just an opinion, not a fact (or to answer your doubt: Yes you are wrong. ;) ).

AMB has got what he deserved. Not to speak about his history thought :x.

Im also somehow interested in what you are actually referring to "some of their actions". Care to give some examples (Hint: Rudeness that wasn't justified, at least to some extent.)?




My opinion about LFS? Just check my history in this forum. Or to save you some time: Im hoping for the best and im prepared for the rest.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

edit: Aww, STONED beat be to it :( Damn hippies.

S14.... Look man,


Read over what you wrote - seriously - here's what it says:

1) Woof!
2) I am finding LFS Boring lately. Although there are fast road cars, medium road cars, slow road cars, front engine, rear engine, mid engine, front drive, rear drive, all wheel drive, turbocharged, normally aspirated, open wheeled, GTR style and a Kart type of car - the selection and variety of cars sucks - they're "samey samey". Interesting!
3) The forum is a bunch of wankers
4) The devs are wankers
5) The tracks are smooth wankers (I'll give you the smooth part)
6) The graphics are a wanker

I just can't help wonder why you haven't moved on to iRacing for now? I have, and I love it. Some hate the price, and that's fine - it doesn't bother me so I run it. Pretty simple.

Why are you making this so complicated for yourself and everyone else here reading your blatherings? If you really feel what you wrote (and I think you do) then assuming there is no piano tied to your ass, why are you still running LFS? :shrug: I truly don't get why you're still here. When LFS has some things going on again, I'll be back to check it out, and I'll buy S3 just out of point of principle even if I stick with iRacing after it comes out - variety is the spice of life. I don't see anywhere - not one person - saying LFS is perfect, I only see you with a megaphone stating the obvious, and when you pause I can hear crickets in between while you take another deep breath to continue the spew.

[510N3D]

edit: Aww, STONED beat be to it :( Damn hippies.


Oh YEAH? Well at least yours is much more fun to read though!! Im an EX-hippy btw, at least regarding the "unhealthy part" of that lifestyle ;).

Edit: Damn that wasn't insulting at all. Well look at your avatar then and...ahh whatever man. :D

[The Very End]

edit: Aww, STONED beat be to it :( Damn hippies.

S14.... Look man,


Read over what you wrote - seriously - here's what it says:

1) Woof!
2) I am finding LFS Boring lately. Although there are fast road cars, medium road cars, slow road cars, front engine, rear engine, mid engine, front drive, rear drive, all wheel drive, turbocharged, normally aspirated, open wheeled, GTR style and a Kart type of car - the selection and variety of cars sucks - they're "samey samey". Interesting!
3) The forum is a bunch of wankers
4) The devs are wankers
5) The tracks are smooth wankers (I'll give you the smooth part)
6) The graphics are a wanker

I just can't help wonder why you haven't moved on to iRacing for now? I have, and I love it. Some hate the price, and that's fine - it doesn't bother me so I run it. Pretty simple.

Why are you making this so complicated for yourself and everyone else here reading your blatherings? If you really feel what you wrote (and I think you do) then assuming there is no piano tied to your ass, why are you still running LFS? :shrug: I truly don't get why you're still here. When LFS has some things going on again, I'll be back to check it out, and I'll buy S3 just out of point of principle even if I stick with iRacing after it comes out - variety is the spice of life. I don't see anywhere - not one person - saying LFS is perfect, I only see you with a megaphone stating the obvious, and when you pause I can hear crickets in between while you take another deep breath to continue the spew.

Actually S14 wrote a fairly good post, witch did not just contain normal bitching. He gave a valid opinion about how he think the game and the community is. Now I can't agree on everything in that post, but he got some points in it.

I have NEVER in ANY game seen people get banned from the game if they behave like asshats on the forum. No matter how much they screw up, they will get their forum accounts banned but still will be able to play the game. I agree with Jamie on this that speedhackers getting a more gentle aproach than AMB(w?) is kind of bullshit. Now, I did not even like that guy, and a ban was ok for me, but I do not agree or can think of any justify to ban him from game. But then again, most likely people will shout that I am an asshat and the devs can do what they want since it's their product afterall.

Also with the community he had some right, but I will take it the step further and divide it to just two parts.
It's the one part that questions the development, and we have the totally ignorant fanboys. Yeah, you heared right, fanboys. People that are absolutely certain that everything is perfect in LFS, and everyone that question the methods of development or the speed littler can go **** themself. Often the very same users use very downtalking replies when they reply to the people questioning. If you got your head so far up the ass you canot even discuss a matter or question without using the typical downward talk on member, then, with all respect, you can **** off.

It seems that LFS is not open for discussion, no one can comment on it, unless it's a fanboy feast where everything just is cooooooool maaaaaate. A forum, and specially the LFS forum needs to be open for discussion, both in term of development of the game or the forum itself without the damn same people beeing offending and rude all the time. LFS community used to be great and helpfull, but lately people just have turned into assholes, with little or no patience against new users that asks totally fine question. I can dare you if there is a new user that asks for Scirocco, that he will be flames into oblivion, by the allways-the-same "hardcore" fanboys of LFS.
If you can get that much upset of it, you should take a brake from the forum.

With this community as it is now, there will be no "good old days back". The community need to change, and be more tolerant, instead of offending, rude and intimitating fanboys ready to launch their obvious nuke on the poor bastards that did the mistake question LFS.

[ignission]

Or write (without profanity)

This tread shows the LFS communitys worst aspects, people with a little knowlage and big mouths are making the rest of us look bad to any newcomers here.

SD.

You make a good point here about threads like this creating the wrong impression to newcomers. I must admit, having started to browse this forum it is easy to find a lot of negative and destructive threads which give the impression that there is a lot of frustration and antagonism within the community.

Having said that, scratch a little deeper and look past the negativity and there are some great/helpful/friendly/positive/witty (delete as appropriate) people here and as for the LFS multiplayer stuff, I've met some really nice folk and enjoyed some excellent racing, so all in all I'm really glad I stumbled across this sim :thumb:

[Byku]

With this community as it is now, there will be no "good old days back". The community need to change, and be more tolerant, instead of offending, rude and intimitating fanboys ready to launch their obvious nuke on the poor bastards that did the mistake question LFS.

Remember that it also goes the other way, there are lot of other people who don't like the speed of LFS and are moaning, bitching without any constructive criticism(and in a rather offending manner to the devs).

[RMachucaA]

STAGNATION

verb (used without object), -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing
1.to cease to run or flow, as water, air, etc.
2.to be or become stale or foul from standing, as a pool of water.
3.to stop developing, growing, progressing, or advancing: My mind is stagnating from too much TV.
4.to be or become sluggish and dull: When the leading lady left, the show started to stagnate.



Yep, LFS smells like diry old water to me, with an ecosystem of annoying viri and bacteria.

[The Very End]

Remember that it also goes the other way, there are lot of other people who don't like the speed of LFS and are moaning, bitching without any constructive criticism(and in a rather offending manner to the devs).

Yes, that's a very good point aswell. The feedback allways need to be contructive, either if it's positive or not. What anoys me is that sometimes even very contructive critism just gets nuked down by the fanboys before it even reach a fruitable discussion. I am not saying we all shal moan and bitch all over the place, but we need to be open for suggestion, impression, and thoughs - even if they are negative. If the posts are somewhat reflecting and not "LFS SUCKS BIGTIME" they deserve to be taken as serious as any other posts. Lately it seems it's ok to just go all out verbal attacks on people if they do question the development. It's a interesting thing, and it must be allowed to discuss before someone drops the nuke.

[SamH]

The LFS devs don't need to listen to any criticism if they don't want. This is the "ownership delusion" that some people have, where they think they have a right to say what they want on this forum and the devs have to listen and take notice. If anyone still believes that, it's time to finally put that silly idea to bed.

I haven't seen any criticism this year that isn't a repeat of someone else's criticism, or just the same person repeating themselves over and over and over and over and over and over and over.. damn, it's boring. Who wants to re-read the same crap over and over, when only the day and the post-count changes? I don't. The devs don't need to re-read it. It's been said, it's been read. Where's the benefit? What's constructive about it? What will it change?

And I dunno why AMB keeps cropping up. He abused the system as a whole, over multiple accounts. I suggest you consider his ban as an equivalent to "punkbuster". He abused the system really offensively and was removed from it. Only the devs know the full extent of the abuse, and the mods have a fair idea of the extent. If you think you know, but you're not a mod or a dev, then you're wrong. I don't need to defend either his forum ban or his game ban. The master server belongs to the devs, and them alone, and ONLY they can decide who connects to it and who deserves to be "punkbusted".

I see some people think that some other people should be banned from the game for the abuse that they've given the system in the past, but I would suggest that, if anything, they should be banned AS WELL AS, not INSTEAD OF.

It's a interesting thing, and it must be allowed to discuss before someone drops the nuke.

What does that even mean!?

[The Very End]

The LFS devs don't need to listen to any criticism if they don't want. This is the "ownership delusion" that some people have, where they think they have a right to say what they want on this forum and the devs have to listen and take notice. If anyone still believes that, it's time to finally put that silly idea to bed.

I haven't seen any criticism this year that isn't a repeat of someone else's criticism, or just the same person repeating themselves over and over and over and over and over and over and over.. damn, it's boring. Who wants to re-read the same crap over and over, when only the day and the post-count changes? I don't. The devs don't need to re-read it. It's been said, it's been read. Where's the benefit? What's constructive about it? What will it change?

And I dunno why AMB keeps cropping up. He abused the system as a whole, over multiple accounts. I suggest you consider his ban as an equivalent to "punkbuster". He abused the system really offensively and was removed from it. Only the devs know the full extent of the abuse, and the mods have a fair idea of the extent. If you think you know, but you're not a mod or a dev, then you're wrong. I don't need to defend either his forum ban or his game ban. The master server belongs to the devs, and them alone, and ONLY they can decide who connects to it and who deserves to be "punkbusted".

I see some people think that some other people should be banned from the game for the abuse that they've given the system in the past, but I would suggest that, if anything, they should be banned AS WELL AS, not INSTEAD OF.

That has not really been much for discussion earlier, most people have accepted the ban we're talking about, but rather want a more strict veiw on people that uses cheats online. If you get caught - perm ban, end of story, zipit, the end.

I do not say that the discussions allways are aimed for the devs, it's more on the level user to user now, that we are allowed to talk formly to eachothers and discuss matters and point of veiw, without getting flamed our ass off. A forum is doomed to have various kind of people, that will not agree, but at least there should be possible to discuss normally without having to take shit from the fanboys.

It's kind of frustrating, aswell that the moderators seems to take part with the ones that hails the game into the skies, while people that do critisise doesn't deserve the open their mouth before all hell brakes lose.

I am not mentally disadvantaged, I know it won't change one little bit if I moaned til I died to the devs, but that has never been my intention either. I want to discuss my point of veiw, and demand respect without having to answering offending and rude comments by the other users and moderators.

[SamH]

Then I guess I'm missing some big point. Are you saying that, because I'm a moderator that I'm not allowed to support the devs for the choices they make? Because that doesn't work for me, and to me it doesn't make much sense. I hold the opinions that I hold because those are my opinions. As I said on the previous page, and other places recently, I choose my own words. If I support the devs it's because I personally, myself, support the devs. I'm not just towing the "moderator line". There is no such line, we're not coached on what to say by anyone else.

If you're referring to me when you're referring to "moderators", I wish you'd say so. :shrug: I much prefer it when people speak honestly and directly. I'm always direct and honest when I speak out. If you don't mean me, then I don't know which moderator you mean so it makes it very difficult to address the points you make. I wonder if it would be too much trouble to link to particular posts made by people when referring to them, so that we can all get quickly up to speed. It also means that what you refer to can't be dismissed as rumour/speculation/supposition.

Just on a completely separate point, I don't hold with "demanding respect". In my experience, to command respect you first have to earn it. As BBT said, this "I am a customer, hear me roar" idea doesn't cut it ;)

[The Very End]

Ok, I'll talk honest then.

I don't agree with you SamH, infact I don't do much nowdays. I have not shouted up before beacuse I give up going into serious discussion, because my english is just not good enough to let me give a valubale and serious discusission. No matter how much I tries, it will look like something I just throw down in a hurry, but in fact I would want to say things a lot different and maybe a bit more informing if I had the english knowlege for it. That's main reason why I usually don't join deep discussions, because someone will just outtalk me or twist on things I say and take it out of contex, and I often catch you particuallary doing it.

I canot find posts right away that proves this, maybe it's just in my head. But over the times, we're talking years here, I have seen some replies that really, really wants me to smash my head into the wall, where people actually have a good point in the discussion, but you and other that know how to say things twitch it out and turns it completely out to a discussion that usually ends with flaming of the user that in the start basically just asked a question.

I agree, and I like the point you saying that you supports what you feel for, not like an duty as a moderator, I give you kudos for that. But as stated, your persuative way of saying things with great language often gets things out of context, and I have more than once as said above, seen totally inocent discussion turn out rather nasty because you seem to take part in the LFS hailclub.

Again, as you said this is your free choise, but for me it seems you are pretty intimitating to people who makes critism about LFS. You often don't stop offending / rude posting by other members towards people that asked the questios in first place. Sometimes it looks really bad, and it goes beyound disgusting before someone eventually locks it, and when it locks it's usually locked with a message that again leads to the point that critism of LFS doesn't bellong here. You of course don't say it directly, but indirectly and between the lines thats my honest opinion about it.

[Fetzo]

the very end pointed out very much pointed out the reason, why i don't care about discussing lfs-topics in this forum anymore.

it's not about understanding and discussing opinions anymore. it's about finding the flaw in a post, ignoring valid points or purposely understanding things the wrong way just to talk down the guy who is not that satisfied with the lfs-development. some others join the bashing till the guy finally shuts up.

that and the fact there is nothing to talk about is imo the main reason nothing much happens anymore in this (general lfs) forum.

yes, i think a moderator is allowed to express his opinion and most moderators know what is constructive/informative and what is driving forum users away from the community. when even a mod uses the above mentionend practices, what hope do we have ;) ?.

just wanted to point out my view on this. i am not interested in a fight, i just don't care that much about lfs anymore to put much energy in that ( especially in a foreign language).

[SamH]

Thank you for being honest! :tilt:

Yes, it's true what you say. I do use language very carefully to convey what I think. It's also true to say that I'm pro-LFS. Combine the two, and I guess I can make a pretty difficult opponent in a debate. I'm what they call an "orator".. I use different language methods to make my point. But I can't help it.. it's what I've always done. :shrug:

I don't win every argument that I enter into, either here or anywhere else that I type/chat. I'm frequently handed my ass in a debate, in fact.

What I do promise, though, is that I never play devil's advocate (arguing one thing while believing another). I always believe in the argument that I make. Perhaps sometimes I argue more passionately than I need to, I don't know. Probably, though. I also promise that I never intentionally use someone else's lack of English as a first language as a weapon against them. I see people taking the piss often, pointing out spelling or grammatical mistakes and trying to make that an argument against the point being made.

I'm sorry if I'm intimidating. I'd rather people regard me as another forum member than as a moderator. The downside of being a moderator, and I noticed it on the very first day, is that that "moderator" tag is intimidating to some people. Without realising it, many people find themselves "hearing" me differently. When I'd rather they fight with me, and argue out a particular point in a discussion, far too many people just see what I say as being "the last word". I only feel like a moderator when I have to take action, and I prefer not to take action unless it's absolutely necessary.

Separate from all of the above, the CTRA subforum. All section owners have absolute power over what goes and what stays. My moderation of the CTRA forum I regarded as separate from the LFS forum generally. I had no problem having the last word in there and locking a thread if I didn't like it. I moderate on the LFS forum as an LFS member, but I worked a hell of a lot of hours on CTRA because I wanted to, and none of the CTRA admins, including me, had to take any crap at all in the LFS forum CTRA section. I'm afraid I stand by that. If that's where you've got a sense that I'm all-powerful and abusing my powers, please consider whether you saw me being that way inside or outside the CTRA subforum.

[pik_d]

- The Very End, here's a perfect example of what you're trying to say.

It's kind of frustrating, aswell that the moderators seems to take part with the ones that hails the game into the skies, while people that do critisise doesn't deserve the open their mouth before all hell brakes lose.

Are you saying that, because I'm a moderator that I'm not allowed to support the devs for the choices they make?

The Very End was saying that the moderators (possibly SamH in this case?) "hail the game into the skies", or act fanboyish. SamH takes that as "oh, I'm not allowed to support them at all?" which to me is clearly much further than The Very End meant it. Of course it's alright to support LFS, but to praise it as "the perfect sim" or even "the best sim" is closeminded at best, arrogant at worst.

Now I don't know if SamH does this because I don't pay too much attention to the forums, but I thought it a nice coincidence (or maybe not?) to point out to support The Very End.

[Byku]

So in simple matter, a person who approves the way LFS is(or the fact how devs work), is immediately a fanboy? So simply put, if You do not want to be a fanboy, You have to be (very)critical againts LFS(and againts devs)? In my personal opinion, except that LFS' development slowed recently(what I mean by that, is not that DEVS are not working on it, it is simply more complicated to update it), this is the best sim in terms of feel(played GTR, RFactor, IRacing, Race07). Personaly i also doubt that we will get new tracks or cars in S2, as it is what it should be in terms of cars/tracks. We will get physical updates etc, but cars and tracks are reserved for S3 I suppose. So most of You will have to endure this time. I don't think that SamH ever "hailed the game into the skies", he is rather calm and simply accepting the way LFS is.

[typhirion]

I know I have not posted in this topic before now. and its because im trying to work out the following
1. why the f*** is a demo racer complaining about the:
a S3
b the VW

2. why are there so many of these **** topics springing up.

3. why cant people be Patient. I am! and alot of other people are. I hope

4. why you are constantly on about EA games. this is a multi billon Pond/dollar Company, and they can have hundreds of programmers etc helping them to create games. the lfs is a team of three developers working on one game that im my opion is one of the best. even tho it is not finished, but saying that no game is ever complete. aka you have the big company ea relesing one game then relesing another one call Game 2 or 3 as the case can be.

all of the above are my opinions. if you dont agree then thats fine.

regarding #1 Im not a persion to put demos down it just seems a bit odd. if that makes scence

[pik_d]

So in simple matter, a person who approves the way LFS is(or the fact how devs work), is immediately a fanboy? So simply put, if You do not want to be a fanboy, You have to be (very)critical againts LFS(and againts devs)?
This is also exactly the type of "arguing" that The Very End is talking about. You're straw-manning the heck out of me. There is clearly a difference between supporting something and supporting something so much that you bash/flame/misconstrue the arguments of/etc of anyone who seems to be criticizing (constructively or otherwise) whatever it is you support. If you honestly have yourself convinced that I (or The Very End) think that anyone supporting LFS is a brainless fanboy then you should take a step back and re-read what people are actually saying.

There are plenty of people who take things to the extreme here (it's easy to notice even for someone who tries to not pay attention) and it makes it difficult to have a well thought out argument about pretty much anything. This thread is literally at the point of arguing about arguing because of these types of people (directly because they are doing it, and indirectly because it's being pointed out by those of us frusturated by it).

Byku, out of curiosity how many other sims do you own? I recently started messing around with Netkar Pro (just the demo) and it's impressed me pretty well. I use a gamepad but it feels just as good, if not better, than LFS. Unfortunately it has even less in the way of choices for what to drive (four different formula cars ranging from 110hp to 230hp, and that's it!) and costs €36 so isn't really worth the money to me.

And finally, so far as "S3" is concerned it does matter because if new stuff gets clumped under the title of S3 then we have to pay £12 for it (which I certainly will). If it stays S2 we get it for free. :D

[The Very End]

Edit : was a reply to the post above the pots above me :p And thanks for clearing out those points I don't manage to make clear myself pik d.

No, because fanboys and whiners are two seperate cathegories, what I trying to air my opinion is the ones that can produce constructive critism and how they are handlet by some of the forum users.

I will never support anyone that just says LFS sucks, and devs sucks and blabla, because that ain't true. In fact LFS is the best racing game I have tried, and probally the reason why I have stayed around for as long as I have.

But there is a other side aswell, the ones that never ever accept that there is anything better than LFS, that LFS is the god himself. Don't dare to talk about arcade games or you will be flames into oblivion while others launches the obvious nukes on you to nuke down the ressitance.
That is what I tries to discuss in the replies I have done in this topic, that I personally feel the LFS forum and community ignorant, rude & offending, intimidating and very closeminded. There is NO room for discussion, because there will ultimately end in a flame war and xxx number of other "fanboys" that canot produce any more valid answers than agreeing on what others said with replies like "+1" or "qft".

So, shal I try to actually give my constructive critism of what I feel about LFS?

I like LFS, a lot. The feeling is just great. I don't care about fancy stuff as real life cars og tracks, just as long the contest in the game is enjoyable. And so it is, and has been. But at some point it stopped progressing. There was 2 new track layouts, some new cars and some fixes here and there, but the REAL big changes we saw in S1 and up to S2 just stopped coming. Of course it's natually, that the further into the development it comes, the longer time will it be to come up with new stuff and fix the stuff that allready are in game, due to it's complexity. But having no track additions on over 4 years IS slow, even in term of LFS progress. By all respect the updates to SO and BL were great, but they are still - just BL and SO. No matter how many times you facelift them, they still are SO and BL, and the barriers are the barriers enough said about them.

It's also totally understandable that the developers get tired of having the silk gloves on, when there are silly replies that just tell them how they suck and that more money and employers could solve everything. But still it don't justify that reply Eric did throw back at us, as I quoted on last page. A lot of people though when they saw a post from him, that he would reveal THE secret, what he had been doing, what we could expect, hell - answer ANY questoins we had been wondering around LFS for 4 years. But that did not happend, instead he used the opertunity to let his emotions take overhand and flamed users by calling the ones question him or the develop of the game idiots.
Sure, there are people in this board that just don't get it, that will moan endlesly even if you do implent barrier fix, more tracks, more cars, weather and such, but still that reply of him revealed NOTHING. It did not answer one question at all, it just fueled the fire. Instead of answering question he made up new ones, by posting the good old "working on something" replies.

I understand that the things are best to be kept secret, so it don't turn into things like the LX8 or the rallypack. Myself I have too many times posted silly jokes about the rallypack, but that's just because I really wanted it, and somewhat never stopped dreaming about it and hoping it one day would be released. As much as I try to say to myself that it won't happend, I still not to this day has given up beliving that they will surprise us with it one day.

So The Very End, you big silly moaner, what do YOU want then, what do you think is needed for LFS then?
- Tracks. Something new, completely new, not a facelift of what we allready have. To be honest I think we allready have enough cars in the game to suit most of the needs, but we have too few tracks to test and race them on. Even if we have like 999 combos to do, there still only are these tracks we saw in the release of S2. A combo is entertaining for some weeks or maybe a month or two, but a track or two with layouts attached to them could keep the new feel of the game for much more longer time. That's at least what I think.

And since I am at it, as Scawen actually was very kind of replying to, a question I had regarding the layouts in autoX editor. It's such a small feature, yet still people have made BIG things with that little thing! Just think of what people could create with more amounts of objects to play with, that would boost the freshness a lot, and still not be that hard to implent. But again, it's not just to "implent" a thing into the game, so much do I know, but I am pretty sure that some love to the autoX editor itself could bring unexpected results, that would be positive. And please don't suggest things like corners, roads and such, it's purely objects we are talking about. Like fences, maybe ramps, trees(?) and such, small things but could let people give their personal "feel" over the track.

I am overall very happy in LFS, and I play it from time to time. No game has costed me more I think, due to the lisences I have buyed to the various people I found enjoyable, aswell as skins and my own lisence(s).
Maybe that's why I gets so frustrated aswell, since no one will let me and other discuss what's bottering us without beeing called whiners? I don't classify myself as whiner, maybe a little spoiled, and a little bit in the moan direction, but I see nothing wrong with question the development as long as it's constructive and have valid points. I don't know if I can produce valid points, or if this post is just a big BLARGH, but at least it tells how I feel about things. I don't think I am asking for too much, I don't care about the weather effects people cry for, lisence material or anything, I just want something fresh. I understand things are not easy to implent and never will, but I were really dissapointed Eric didn't take the opertunity to answer some question we have been dying to know for several years.

But hey, they are humans right? Myself I get pissed off pretty often by users on this forum, so why shouldn't he be allowed to be it? Of course he can be pissed off and shout back at us, but if he just had wrote some few lines with what he has been working on, thoughts, ideas, basically anything it would be so much better. Even if it would be rumor mill, who cares - rumor mills are normally harmless and just proves people are interesting in the project. That people moan also shows they have great interest in this project, or they would just move allong.

Please, let people have their opinion without flaming them. If you do read what they write, there are some truth in many post around here that has been classified as trolling, spam and just bitching. Aswell, if you are going to reply with "QFT" or "+1", don't reply at all. People have their invidual opinions, and devs, moderators, and other users must understand that most of the whining is just better to ignore than going all-rage on. And hey, every now and then the whiners might got a point eh?

Edit : And I just want to clear out that it's not a question about money. I do not care on the money I have invested in LFS. I would happely pay on monthly basis without complaining about the price. I feel that I allready have got too much for my money for S2, now they should get S2 done and get S3 ready for alpha release when that is ready. I happely pay for anything, and so far it's been my best computer game investment.

[Boris Lozac]

The best possible solution right now for LFS is to release the Scirocco and close the doors for S2 finaly, maybe some other minor tweaks and fixes and that's it. Let it be called "final" finally, maybe advertise it officialy via some magazines, racing events, or even TV, if it's financially doable. That way plenty of new people fill find out about it and it could gain a lot of sales because of no more "alpha" in the name.

Let all Eric's work (if there is any) be a part of S3. I don't know how many new people are buying LFS, it sure can't be enough for a proper living?
I think it's fair if any new content comes out, tracks, more cars etc, that we should be paying for it. I had MORE then my moneys worth out of this game, and if new content means another 12 pounds, then bring it. I'm giving a LOT more then that for some single player games for my PS3.

Then again, if Gran Turismo 5 delivers, if the physics become good enough, cars get damage, if cars can be flipped over for a change, etc, and it gets good online play, i'm not sure how much patience i would have for LFS.
The setups issue, the burning tires after 4 laps, mouse drivers wiping floor with wheel drivers, etc, that's SOME of the things that are putting me away from LFS lately..

[ryansmith1984]

i agree with the original demo man,

i love LFS now but its been 3 years now and nothingabout it has changed?

lots of people are buying licences and paying for skin downloads so wheres the money going ?
its a shame casue LFS is awsome (compaired to rfactor and stuff) but it needs new content every so often (tracks/cars) even every year would be nice

[510N3D]

blah...

Here you go. (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=50199#post50199) I guess this is still valid.


blah...

Please, without really making a comment on your join date, have you ever visited this site (http://www.lfs.net/) and checked the news archive let alone reading the update details of each patch that has been released in the past three years?


Its people like you that usually makes me ignore this forum. People too lazy to read what has been said countless times before or people that are too dumb (forgive me but im too lazy or dumb right now myself to put it in a more polite way) to understand a "relatively simple" concept and come up with the "best" ideas how LFS could or should be developed.

[marzman]

i agree with the original demo man,

i love LFS now but its been 3 years now and nothingabout it has changed?

lots of people are buying licences and paying for skin downloads so wheres the money going ?
its a shame casue LFS is awsome (compaired to rfactor and stuff) but it needs new content every so often (tracks/cars) even every year would be nicerFactor doesn't give you updates. The mod-community does. I think LFS is the only sim that still gives free updates after this development time. Sims that give regular updates are Race07 (but you have to buy the updates) and iRacing (but you have to get a payed subscription for the updates).

[dumbass0]

Okay, so I dont want to sound like an annoying bastard but here goes...

The LFS devs don't need to listen to any criticism if they don't want. This is the "ownership delusion" that some people have, where they think they have a right to say what they want on this forum and the devs have to listen and take notice. If anyone still believes that, it's time to finally put that silly idea to bed.

THIS is what is currently wrong with the project as is (and indeed with many things regarding life itself). Its the mindset that gets people nowhere.
That fact that a person has the right to do something (or ignore something) doesnt mean he/she is right in doing it. Its like burning witches, "the book" and the moral at the time said yes but was it really the right thing to do? As and analogy we could consider an artist making THE MOST perfect painting in the world, he then decides not to listen to other peoples criticism (because he has the right to do so) and makes the painting extremely ghastly or just half-asses it.

What Im trying to imply is that justifying something with political correctness doesnt make it OK.
Also, I doubt a man could have walked on the moon if everybody had shouted GTFO over the idea.



Oh, and FYI I wasnt really talking about the devs as much as the community itself.

[Breizh]

I was talking about how Eric presented himself for the first time ever for the whole LFSF community. You mean when he co-released the game said community is so crazy about?

[Boris Lozac]

Here you go. (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=50199#post50199) I guess this is still valid.

Blah what? What that has to do with my post? :really:

[Matrixi]

You mean when he co-released the game said community is so crazy about?
Well done giving a fine example about how TVE described fanatics twisting the original words of a post to have a whole different meaning than intended. 10/10 points, fine performance sir.

[NightShift]

Wow TVE wrote some nice posts here. Plenty of other interesting contributions, too.

BTW regarding certain topics getting repetitive, let me say just one thing.

As long as LFS stays still, the discussions about it will go round in circles too. People will always find the same things missing, and will always want the same bugs/shortcomings/flaws fixed. There's only one man that can provide a solution to this problem.

[S14 DRIFT]

Wow TVE wrote some nice posts here. Plenty of other interesting contributions, too.

BTW regarding certain topics getting repetitive, let me say just one thing.

As long as LFS stays still, the discussions about it will go round in circles too. People will always find the same things missing, and will always want the same bugs/shortcomings/flaws fixed. There's only one man that can provide a solution to this problem.

Mm.. +1 to all of that. :razz:

Especially to TVE's points. :o

Edit : 51OND or whatever.

Sorry you find my signature offensive. It's also true. There are some really jumped up, up their own arse LFS Fanboys who can't see anything wrong with it. This thread shows just that. :shrug:

(Sorry TVE I know you don't want me +1'ing. :hide: :D)

[evilgeek]

it was good to read in the test patch thread that scawen is actually alive and writing code.

i for one don't give a rat's ass about the VWS. it will be even more boring to drive than the FBM.

what i really want is a new track or three. the moment S3 drops i'll poney up the cash for the upgrade. in the meantime i'm spending most of my gaming time playing poker. at least the uncertainty there is part of the fun, and not a source of groaning.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

There are some really jumped up, up their own arse LFS Fanboys who can't see anything wrong with it. This thread shows just that. :shrug:

Ok, I'll contain myself here.

There seems to be a lofty principle here that is beyond my scope of reason, or I just haven't been back & reading here often enough to fully grasp what the heck is going on...

As far as twisting words go - come on, S14 - Explain to me very clearly, with quoted posts from this very thread, how in ANY way this thread shows even one single "LFS Fanboy who can't see anything wrong with it". Those are your exact words, and one of us is being a moron because I can't see it. Therefore the one being a moron is either me for being too thick to see where one single person says "LFS is perfect", or it's you, for propagating more crap to degenerate this thread further. If you can't find me a post with someone saying "LFS is perfect", then I expect full admission that you're being a moron. Note: user must intimate clearly that they feel LFS is a perfect product, as is, and requires no further work to be viewed as "complete". This does not include 'supporting the devs decisions'. I'll be waiting.

TVE:
I appreciate your soliloquy, I do understand what you're saying, for the most part, but I still just don't understand what your overall purpose is, and/or what you're hoping to accomplish, or if you even think you'll accomplish anything - maybe you're just venting.

I'll ask one more time, and I would sincerely invite an answer - if you're bothered enough about the state of things in different facets of LFS (forum, and the sim itself)... why do you torture yourself by remaining involved? I just don't get it. Why does some folks actions on the forum bother your life enough to make massive posts about it? Perhaps you're taking it too seriously.

Sam did make a very important point, in that there is very little "constructive" criticism to be made on the sim side of things. We have a suggestion thread that is ancient and long. An original idea is very rare these days. Just look at the elephant thread if you want to see what a decent discussion on LFS's flaws looks like (the tire physics thread as of late, it's a good read). You've been around long enough to know that LFSs flaws are well known and mostly obvious.

I don't know what else to tell you. You bought S2, and you have a copy of it - case closed. You have everything that you're entitled to, despite it's unfinished state. You can wish there was more tracks - fine who wouldn't like more? You can wish there were more cars - that'd be peachy; nobody would say 'no' to that. The problem is that you're not, in any way shape or form, entitled to any of it, whatsoever. I think you need to grasp that. Check it out: Scawen could, this very moment, make a post saying "LFS S2 v Z13 is the finished version of the stage, S2. There will be no further updates, and we're not going to make S3" If he did that, you STILL have everything you paid for, and everything you're entitled to. :shrug:

[The Very End]

Why I hang around? Well, because I like to get skins, setups, tips, layouts, discussion, laughs and everything LFS and it's forum gives me. Because there are good things with the community, no doubt, I just focused on what I think it's some problems with it.

Why I wrote long post?
Good question, maybe I now and then need to remind myself and other that I just are not a spamming whore craving for attention, but actually likes to discuss without having grammar police and captain obvious'es to flame me. I wrote a long post to put down most of what I think about this discussion, and I felt it nessesary to post in that lenght.
I also has other reasons to hang around, to check the contribution to the competiton and such.

But the soul reason is that I am interested in LFS. I check it often, but I do not hit the F5 button every 5 minutes for a update.

Not a tidy post of mine now, trying to discuss with a rather angry person on telly, while writing is not easy, BUT, utlimately I have long thought about posting what I did, as a reply to the endless flamewar going on.
People canot air their opinions and thoughts nowdays, without beeing attacked, and that is just wrong in my eyes. I remember back in really old days where people would help out any people with almost any questions, even if there were asked each day. Now I do know people get tired of it, but the friendliness of the forum has gone much down and left there are only arguing and not much good discussions.

Hopefully I archive to contribute something in that discussion, alltho I don't think so. I have no problem writing posts of that lenght if the topic interests me, and this one caught my interest.

I don't know what more to say, I really have not much to archive or want to do, rather than giving MY opinion about LFS, and the (in my eyes) downgoing community that gets more and more divined and hostile.

[AcesHigh]

blah blah blah........... I think you need to grasp that. Check it out: Scawen could, this very moment, make a post saying "LFS S2 v Z13 is the finished version of the stage, S2. There will be no further updates, and we're not going to make S3" If he did that, you STILL have everything you paid for, and everything you're entitled to. :shrug:

This is something i feel alot of LFS players dont quite understand, they should be very happy s2 wasnt completed and the LFS series ending, years ago.

The good thing about LFS is that you have been given the privelige to be part of and come with suggestions about further development. It´s a fine privelige and NOT a right you automaticly are entitled to once you buy the game.

[S14 DRIFT]

Ok, I'll contain myself here.

There seems to be a lofty principle here that is beyond my scope of reason, or I just haven't been back & reading here often enough to fully grasp what the heck is going on...

As far as twisting words go - come on, S14 - Explain to me very clearly, with quoted posts from this very thread, how in ANY way this thread shows even one single "LFS Fanboy who can't see anything wrong with it".

Those are your exact words, and one of us is being a moron because I can't see it. Therefore the one being a moron is either me for being too thick to see where one single person says "LFS is perfect", or it's you, for propagating more crap to degenerate this thread further. If you can't find me a post with someone saying "LFS is perfect", then I expect full admission that you're being a moron. Note: user must intimate clearly that they feel LFS is a perfect product, as is, and requires no further work to be viewed as "complete". This does not include 'supporting the devs decisions'. I'll be waiting.


You completely miss my point. And what's more you know EXACTLY what I mean. You're just taking what I say as literal instead of actually understanding. You're just trying to pick apart holes in what I'm saying for a reason beyond my understanding.

You have to admit there are people that see no fault in LFS, or rather they seem to stand by it throughout everything. They can't see what other people who aren't so fanboy-ish. There's a handful of people that think LFS is the be-all-and-end-all of racing sims. They flame and insult, talk down to other users who think otherwise, or who aren't as happy as you. It's a very "look down your noses" viewpoint..

And no, no-one has said, quote on quote "LFS is perfect". But it's the view they give across when say suck the Dev's ****s and kiss ass, while at the same time shooting down everyone else that makes a suggestion that, to them, would improve LFS. This sheer ignorance and one upmanship is what's literally tearing the LFS community apart at this time.

Hope you have a newspaper ready, you'll be waiting for a very long time.

[jaxx751]

I have NEVER in ANY game seen people get banned from the game if they behave like asshats on the forum. No matter how much they screw up, they will get their forum accounts banned but still will be able to play the game. I agree with Jamie on this that speedhackers getting a more gentle aproach than AMB(w?) is kind of bullshit. Now, I did not even like that guy, and a ban was ok for me, but I do not agree or can think of any justify to ban him from game. But then again, most likely people will shout that I am an asshat and the devs can do what they want since it's their product afterall.

while i don't agree with their methods, seeing as rockclan, a known speedhacker is still allowed to play LFS... amb was a numbnuts for creating many forum accounts to constantly annoy the moderators. as such, he got exactly what he deserved. if i remember correctly, he was told when he stopped being a nubcake, the ban could possibly be lifted.

edit: hrm, maybe i'm confusing amb with someone else... i forget what dumb things he did to get banned...

While we're on the subjects of the Devs, I've recently started to doubt them (whisper it) for some of their actions, such as banning AMB in game and telling him if he buys another licence, that'd get banned as well. Some of their posts (not many though) are also borderline rude. Your project or not, we're paying users as most of us have paid our money..

1.5 Extreme disruptive or offensive behaviour by a user, towards the developers or members of the community, may result in temporary or permanent suspension of the user's Live for Speed license.

just sayin'.

[S14 DRIFT]

Saying we're not happy, or have issues is not "offensive" or "extremely disruptive". Anyone who think's that simply doesn't like..and can't take.. criticism.

[jaxx751]

Saying we're not happy, or have issues is not "offensive" or "extremely disruptive". Anyone who think's that simply doesn't like..and can't take.. criticism.

so here's everybody's proof that you can't read. Good Game.

[BlackEye]

Saying we're not happy, or have issues is not "offensive" or "extremely disruptive". Anyone who think's that simply doesn't like..and can't take.. criticism.

Wait, what?! AMB was just not happy?
He did not spam forums with multiple accounts and annoy everyone?

And btw, nobody is saying or thinking LFS is perfect or anything like that.
People (myself included) are just fed up with constant moaning about same old things, that's it.

You can call me a fanboy (word to much put in use these days), but I would also love improvments in tire model, suspension, engine, damage etc etc.

Difference between you and me is that I'm not moaning about it every now and then, but quietly waiting for it to happen while doing other things.
Moaning will do nothing good about this situation, that's a fact.

Enough from me, this thread has shortened my life by 3 years :(

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

You completely miss my point. And what's more you know EXACTLY what I mean.

Wrong.

If you can't say what you actually mean, it's not my fault or anyone else's that you say things you don't mean. :shrug:.

You're just taking what I say as literal instead of actually understanding. It wasn't a euphamasim, or idiom. :scratchch

You said:
There are some really jumped up, up their own arse LFS Fanboys who can't see anything wrong with it. This thread shows just that

Where is the figure of speech that should not be taken literally?


You have to admit there are people that see no fault in LFS, or rather they seem to stand by it throughout everything.

Two different things - which one do you actually mean? Or I am expected to mind read again?

They can't see what other people who aren't so fanboy-ish. There's a handful of people that think LFS is the be-all-and-end-all of racing sims. They flame and insult, talk down to other users who think otherwise, or who aren't as happy as you. It's a very "look down your noses" viewpoint..

Sure there is. I don't agree with them either. What's the big deal? :shrug: Those people have just as much right to post their drivel as you do yours. And hey, it's on the LFS FORUM FFS.

And no, no-one has said, quote on quote "LFS is perfect". But it's the view they give across when say suck the Dev's ****s and kiss ass, while at the same time shooting down everyone else that makes a suggestion that, to them, would improve LFS. This sheer ignorance and one upmanship is what's literally tearing the LFS community apart at this time.

Oh, the humanity.

Seriously, I didn't see any of that in this thread anyway.

Hope you have a newspaper ready, you'll be waiting for a very long time.

Or I could just "read between the lines" and see that you're being a moron in this thread anyway :D

[yeager]

Or I could just "read between the lines" and see that you're being a moron in this thread anyway :D

In just this thread?

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Just trying to maintain context :razz:

[rockclan]

About the VWS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuoQOQp8wgA


0:39 :)

[Koa128]

And...

what if we quit discussing on subjects we can't make happen sooner or faster? It's a "still in development" software we agreeded to buy, we have to deal with that and manage to keep alive.

Anyway, this simple/recurrent thread (S3, improvements, critiscim, wishes, moans :D) brought a few really good posts that are worth reading, really well explained and made some interesting points out of them.

The Very End, don't worry about your english, I totally undestand your point with the language thingy. When we don't write in our native language, we can't lvl or equal some really good writers in here (Hate your perfectly british english Sammy boy :D:D)

[S14 DRIFT]

Or I could just "read between the lines" and see that you're being a moron in this thread anyway :D

Well since I'm such a "moron" I don't have to bother replying to you. No need to start getting personal.

Wait, what?! AMB was just not happy?
He did not spam forums with multiple accounts and annoy everyone?

And btw, nobody is saying or thinking LFS is perfect or anything like that.
People (myself included) are just fed up with constant moaning about same old things, that's it.

You can call me a fanboy (word to much put in use these days), but I would also love improvments in tire model, suspension, engine, damage etc etc.

Difference between you and me is that I'm not moaning about it every now and then, but quietly waiting for it to happen while doing other things.
Moaning will do nothing good about this situation, that's a fact.

Enough from me, this thread has shortened my life by 3 years :(

I don't think that's fan boyish at all mate. I share many of your sentiments. There's nothing wrong at all with wanting improvements (as said before, it's what makes the sim better) and hoping they come. :)

The whole fanboyish thing is just people that think LFS is everything and dislike it when others come up with flaws.

And yes, while AMB's ban was deserving (on the forum at least) I don't think telling him that he can't purchase another licence a bit of a.. well, a piss take personally. Ok so ban him, if he wants to pay another £24 then let him...Ok so he was a loudmouth on the forum but he was a decent driver..As other people have said, ex speed hackers are allowed to purchase new accounts, or even have their other ones unbanned (unless I'm misunderstanding. At the very least there are KNOWN speedhackers who are not banned)

I'm just calling for a blanket rule that governs everyone, not second chances for one and none for another. I find that "unfair". You can shove the whole "well it's the devs game/forum they decide", it's just downright unfair in that respect. But then again as I've said they can do what they like......................

I wouldn't think I'm moaning as such. :shrug: TBH this thread is the only time I've really spoken about my personal dissatisfaction with the LFS project publicly. But I do agree that there are some issues which come up time and time again, but then again this would suggest that it's an issue that most of the community agrees with and this should stand for something..
:schwitz::shrug:

[Hallen]

Well since I'm such a "moron" I don't have to bother replying to you. No need to start getting personal.


The whole fanboyish thing is just people that think LFS is everything and dislike it when others come up with flaws.

I'm just calling for a blanket rule that governs everyone, not second chances for one and none for another. I find that "unfair".

What I generally see is that when somebody points out a "flaw" whether with the development model, physics, or lack of features, and that post is responded to with valid reasons why certain things are the way they are or why the original posters position is invalid or just plain wrong, then the responding poster is called a fanboy and dismissed. That's a personal attack as much as being called a moron. It's labelling somebody else's opinion as invalid by labeling them and dismissing them. It's a typical response by somebody who can't understand why somebody else does not agree with them.

Secondly, the world and life is unfair. Get used to it. The only way to make things perfectly fair is to bring everything down to the lowest possible level... and that still won't work because you will need enforcers who aren't treated the same as everybody else (and that in itself isn't fair) to enforce the fairness doctrine and quash anybody from rising above the perfectly level floor.

It's the dev's product, it's their forum, they can choose who they want to sell to and who they don't. Besides, anybody can buy another license if they want to, the dev's really can't stop that. If that person came back and never caused another problem, nobody would know. One size fits all rules are generally suck because they dehumanize us all. The dev's treat us personally, I like that and am willing to accept some of the limitations that come with it.

Sorry for the rant.:shrug:

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Well since I'm such a "moron" I don't have to bother replying to you. No need to start getting personal.

I never called you a moron :shrug:

[S14 DRIFT]

What I generally see is that when somebody points out a "flaw" whether with the development model, physics, or lack of features, and that post is responded to with valid reasons why certain things are the way they are or why the original posters position is invalid or just plain wrong, then the responding poster is called a fanboy and dismissed. That's a personal attack as much as being called a moron. It's labelling somebody else's opinion as invalid by labeling them and dismissing them. It's a typical response by somebody who can't understand why somebody else does not agree with them.

I do understand what you're saying. Really, I actually do. But when I say fanboys of LFS I just mean that they stand by it too faithfully and always act, say and think positive when they have no reason to.. Perhaps it's just how I'm looking at it but I've spoken to people on MSN (won't drag them into it personally as it's not their battle as such) that agree with me. There are some very snide and conceited souls on the forum.

Secondly, the world and life is unfair. Get used to it. The only way to make things perfectly fair is to bring everything down to the lowest possible level... and that still won't work because you will need enforcers who aren't treated the same as everybody else (and that in itself isn't fair) to enforce the fairness doctrine and quash anybody from rising above the perfectly level floor.

It's the dev's product, it's their forum, they can choose who they want to sell to and who they don't. Besides, anybody can buy another license if they want to, the dev's really can't stop that. If that person came back and never caused another problem, nobody would know. One size fits all rules are generally suck because they dehumanize us all. The dev's treat us personally, I like that and am willing to accept some of the limitations that come with it.

Sorry for the rant.:shrug:

I know the worlds unfair and all that, blah blah. I'm just saying what's worse to you, an LFS player. Someone who spams the forums but in game is fairly cool and drivers pretty cleanly and fast, or someone who may not hardly be noticeable on the forum but who has been banned and consequently unbanned for use of speedhacks? :shrug:

And yes AMB could buy another licence, but he was told in an email that if he did that would be banned as well. Life isn't unfair but it should be made as "fair" as possible. :shrug:

I never called you a moron :shrug:


:shrug:

[Toddshooter]

This is something i feel alot of LFS players dont quite understand, they should be very happy s2 wasnt completed and the LFS series ending, years ago.

The good thing about LFS is that you have been given the privelige to be part of and come with suggestions about further development. It´s a fine privelige and NOT a right you automaticly are entitled to once you buy the game.

Here Here:thumb:

[SamH]

when I say fanboys of LFS I just mean that they stand by it too faithfully and always act, say and think positive when they have no reason to..
But what if they don't see a reason not to stand by it? You make it sound like anyone that doesn't have an issue with LFS is a fanboy and is wrong. :shrug:

What about if it's actually just a way of looking at things that isn't the same as you? So you get to call them "fanboys". What do they get to call the people, like you, that have a problem with them just being happy? :really:

Perhaps it's just how I'm looking at it
Ya think? :really:

but I've spoken to people on MSN (won't drag them into it personally as it's not their battle as such) that agree with me. There are some very snide and conceited souls on the forum.
It's this whole thing of stating that the forum is being polluted by people who think LFS is perfect.. which I haven't seen at all, anywhere.. and this "my friend on [other unquoted source], who I won't say who it is, also agrees with me" stuff that just doesn't wash with me :shrug:

I remember the MP Tony Benn getting completely busted on Question Time when he kept quoting supposed "constituents that write to me, saying..." to punch his points home. It's political posturing and, historically, it's just been fictional fluff.

It's time to stop this phoney posturing. Quote it or it didn't happen. Put up or shut up, please, come on. Or if you just want to gripe, sell it as a gripe and stop pretending like you speak for a silent majority that only you know about. I've much more time for someone who admits they just want to bitch for 5 minutes to get something off their chest than someone who cranks out all this fake and fictional nonsense.

[danthebangerboy]

My go! :D

I can quite honestly say, hand on heart, that anyone who says that they think LFS is totally perfect in every way is either lying, or deluded, thats if these people exist at all, which could be doubtful, as there are plenty of people who would refuse to accept that certian bugs are a problem, or that they even exist, but i havent seen anybody quite as mental as to protest that the whole thing is perfect from start to finish, Yet.

Having said that, nobody should ever expect LFS to be perfect in its current state, i mean, it hasn't even gone beta yet, and for an alpha work in progress sim if you will, it isnt bad at all.

Very very good, leading the way, Yes.

Perfect, No.

[SamH]

I can quite honestly say, hand on heart, that anyone who says that they think LFS is totally perfect in every way is either lying, or deluded.

...Or fictional.

I'm going with fictional. I don't know anyone, nor have I seen a post by anyone, ever, who's ever said that. Or even implied it.

[danthebangerboy]

...Or fictional.

I'm going with fictional. I don't know anyone, nor have I seen a post by anyone, ever, who's ever said that. Or even implied it.

Wait, im still re-editing, i can never say what i mean without re-wording it lots of times and fixing my retarded spelling! :nod:

[S14 DRIFT]

But what if they don't see a reason not to stand by it? You make it sound like anyone that doesn't have an issue with LFS is a fanboy and is wrong. :shrug:


That's not what I said... I simply said that some people find it difficult to see and accept obvious flaws in LFS both as a sim and the model behind it.

What about if it's actually just a way of looking at things that isn't the same as you? So you get to call them "fanboys". What do they get to call the people, like you, that have a problem with them just being happy? :really:


I have a problem with them being happy? Far from it......:really:




It's this whole thing of stating that the forum is being polluted by people who think LFS is perfect.. which I haven't seen at all, anywhere.. and this "my friend on [other unquoted source], who I won't say who it is, also agrees with me" stuff that just doesn't wash with me :shrug:

I simply said that there's a very select, elite acting group of individuals that tend to talk down to many people if they express their dislike of either the sim of of the business model. I tend to talk to people on LFS Forum differently on MSN then I would necessarily here, I've spoken to them and said the same thing. That there are some very arsed members, that as far as we can see progress has all but died and there remains a few that will seemingly stand by the devs and their decisions, no matter what. It's the blind leading the blind, for all we know.

I remember the MP Tony Benn getting completely busted on Question Time when he kept quoting supposed "constituents that write to me, saying..." to punch his points home. It's political posturing and, historically, it's just been fictional fluff.

So now you're making assumptions that it's lying? Very mature and fitting of you Sam.

It's time to stop this phoney posturing. Quote it or it didn't happen. Put up or shut up, please, come on. Or if you just want to gripe, sell it as a gripe and stop pretending like you speak for a silent majority that only you know about. I've much more time for someone who admits they just want to bitch for 5 minutes to get something off their chest than someone who cranks out all this fake and fictional nonsense.

It's both. I don't believe I speak for a silent group of users. However some that are on my MSN list, while in general discussion about LFS have agreed with me on one or more things about either LFS being dead/dying and that there's some members who tend to shoot down others when speaking against LFS. Phoney posturing? Pah, what a ****ing joke.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

That's not what I said... I simply said that some people find it difficult to see and accept obvious flaws in LFS both as a sim and the model behind it.

So what? Good for them.
(By the way, a business model is only "flawed" when it fails to work for those that implement it. I think the devs are happy with it, thus it's inherently impossible for it to be flawed).

I have a problem with them being happy? Far from it......:really: Ah, so you just have a problem with these phantom badgers disagreeing with you. Either way, you really seem to feel that the world revolves around you and your MSN friends.

You're not impressed, and neither is your army of MSN friends. Very well, that's enough information - got your point, what else do you want?

That there are some very arsed members, that as far as we can see progress has all but died and there remains a few that will seemingly stand by the devs and their decisions, no matter what. It's the blind leading the blind, for all we know.

Fine, let them be arsed. Why does it affect you? I don't get it. For it to be the blind leading the blind; those arsed ninnies would have to leading something but they're not. YOU on the other hand, seem like you're desperate to champion some bizarre cause. You really should put this energy to something useful in life!

So now you're making assumptions that it's lying? Very mature and fitting of you Sam.
Nah, he's just got some life experience. "pics or it didn't happen" is a pretty reasonable attitude sometimes these days. :smileypul

It's both. I don't believe I speak for a silent group of users. However some that are on my MSN list, while in general discussion about LFS have agreed with me on one or more mores about either LFS being dead/dying and that there's some members who tend to shoot down others when speaking against LFS. Phoney posturing? Pah, what a ****ing joke.

Aren't you embarassed of yourself yet? Come on now. With each subsequent post, you distill your "case" down even further, and it's getting pretty sparse at this point. That pretty much means that there is lots of phoney posturing going on here.

[SamH]

That's not what I said... I simply said that some people find it difficult to see and accept obvious flaws in LFS both as a sim and the model behind it.
Okay. Quotes/links would be good. The business model is different, wouldn't describe it as flawed though. Seems to be working from where I'm sitting.


I have a problem with them being happy? Far from it......:really:
I don't know what to tell you. You seem to have a problem with people not having an issue with the issues in LFS. That's the impression you've been giving :shrug:

I simply said that there's a very select, elite acting group of individuals that tend to talk down to many people if they express their dislike of either the sim of of the business model.
There is? Quotes?

Quotes would be good. Or do you mean me? Because I address points being made against LFS with points in its favour?
So now you're making assumptions that it's lying? Very mature and fitting of you Sam.
I'm saying that you're not backing up what you're saying with anything to support it. In my opinion, you're using unsound methods to back up your argument, but you could easily solve that by actually quoting some of the stuff you say you've seen on the forum, whenever you feel ready.

I don't believe I speak for a silent group of users. However some that are on my MSN list, while in general discussion about LFS have agreed with me on one or more mores about either LFS being dead/dying and that there's some members who tend to shoot down others when speaking against LFS. Phoney posturing? Pah, what a ****ing joke.
I get MSN messages every week from people telling me how much they love LFS, and how excellent it is and how glad they are they found it, and how all their friends are going to buy it. Not going to mention any names, but.. yeah..

Okay, that's not true. I made it up, to show you how it looks from the other side. Looks like bull, doesn't it? Real quotes work much better.

I'm guessing you're just bored with LFS right now, and you want the devs to crank out some stuff to get you excited about it. I understand that.

[edit] Slow typing.. what BBT said. Again :)

[edit] PS: I don't use MSN.

[Breizh]

Well done giving a fine example about how TVE described fanatics twisting the original words of a post to have a whole different meaning than intended. 10/10 points, fine performance sir.

Says you. Fudge.

[ajp71]

It's both. I don't believe I speak for a silent group of users. However some that are on my MSN list, while in general discussion about LFS have agreed with me on one or more things about either LFS being dead/dying and that there's some members who tend to shoot down others when speaking against LFS. Phoney posturing? Pah, what a ****ing joke.

I think there are fewer long term members who are unrealistic about the speed of LFS development or the floors in it than there used to be. Most have now gone out and sampled other sims, and generally (with a few notable exceptions) no longer shun them for the sake of it. Notice that most of the people who are still blindly supportive of the Devs and the majority of those complaining about slow progress have registered relatively recently. The general consensus that I got from the LFS meet in January was that most had given up playing LFS, knew its flaws and weren't too bothered about how soon it got updated, that's not to say they weren't faithful fans though ;)

[S14 DRIFT]

*sighs*

:blahblah:

TL;DR

Aren't you embarassed of yourself yet? Come on now. With each subsequent post, you distill your "case" down even further, and it's getting pretty sparse at this point. That pretty much means that there is lots of phoney posturing going on here.

And you think I care? Kawaiii kawiiii :D Since I'm being such a moron as you said earlier I'll not waste my already low energy resources with you.

Okay. Quotes/links would be good. The business model is different, wouldn't describe it as flawed though. Seems to be working from where I'm sitting.

So admit to me that the LFS is a good model. Admit to me it's not lagging way behind the competition.


I don't know what to tell you. You seem to have a problem with people not having an issue with the issues in LFS. That's the impression you've been giving :shrug:

No that's the impression you're taking away.


There is? Quotes?

Quotes would be good. Or do you mean me? Because I address points being made against LFS with points in its favour?

I'm saying that you're not backing up what you're saying with anything to support it. In my opinion, you're using unsound methods to back up your argument, but you could easily solve that by actually quoting some of the stuff you say you've seen on the forum, whenever you feel ready.

It's not any actual "quotes" per say. It's the attitude that's given across in posts. And yes you're one of the forum members I deem to be up their own arses. That's not just in this thread (because I don't see much of it) but elsewhere you seem to have the holier than thou demeanour. Whether you intend for it to come across or whether you are knowingly like that's another matter.


I get MSN messages every week from people telling me how much they love LFS, and how excellent it is and how glad they are they found it, and how all their friends are going to buy it. Not going to mention any names, but.. yeah..

:scratchch


I'm guessing you're just bored with LFS right now, and you want the devs to crank out some stuff to get you excited about it. I understand that.


Partly. I'm happy where I am with LFS. I only race XFG and sometimes the XRT and LR Race Center accommodates me and I'm happy there. I'm physically tired of "life" and don't have the energy. It'd be nice to go on and not feel like I'm playing a dated product. I went on iRacing at my freinds house a few weeks ago and it felt fresh, it felt new... I check the iRacing website and oh look, you can see and feel the development. It feels like an alive project.

LFS feels dead.


Perhaps not call bullshit quite so often Sam.. If you really want me to spend 4 hours looking through hundreds of hours of conversations to multiple people for your precious quotes I will.

I think there are fewer long term members who are unrealistic about the speed of LFS development or the floors in it than there used to be. Most have now gone out and sampled other sims, and generally (with a few notable exceptions) no longer shun them for the sake of it. Notice that most of the people who are still blindly supportive of the Devs and the majority of those complaining about slow progress have registered relatively recently. The general consensus that I got from the LFS meet in January was that most had given up playing LFS, knew its flaws and weren't too bothered about how soon it got updated, that's not to say they weren't faithful fans though ;)

See what you're saying Alex :)

[Glenn67]

While LFS has slowed, I still see it as alive and well :shrug: But then I feel alive and well also... so maybe it's all about how we ourselves see life that determines how we feel about other things that are in and around our lives (i.e. LFS or people on the road or service at the supermarket, etc)

[migf1]

Guys, what a mess? :shrug:

Fanboys, whiners, devs and anyone in between, they are all entitled to express their opinions, as long as they don't insult anyone. And they are entitled to repeat their opinions as many times as they wish. That's the very essence of any forum: conversation, dialog (preferably constructive, but not necessarily)

Those who know me, already know that I belong to the category of those who after years of intense involvement with LFS they have lost hope and consequently stopped completely their LFS activities. I have already explained my POV in one of the first pages (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1154286#post1154286) of this topic, so I won't bother you... repeating them :D

But I'd like to address a few points regarding the devs vs users "rights". And before you ask me "why bother, since you have abandoned LFS?", the answer is simply "because I care, since LFS was my main source of entertainment in the last 4 years. I want it to attract me again, as it did when I first discovered it".

So, the argument "that's how the devs have decided to grow their own baby, so accept it or shutup/leave" sounds pretty poor to me. TBH I think that this kind of attitude shows nothing more than lack of real arguments against the growing complaints about known cons of the sim and its progress pace/model.

The devs themselves "use" the users at least for beta testing, when they seek feedback through the test patches. Also, they depend on users to spread the word. On top of that, according to the devs, LFS's existance, progress and future is not based on money but on a vision instead. So, when you make the users part of your vision you can neither just shut them up at will nor suggest them to leave every time they address some totally valid points.

LFS has been mainly a 2 parties working project (devs & users) so far and it worked. It makes me sad to say, but the way I see it right now it doesn't look good in either party (or at least it doesn't look as good as it looked until some time ago). Neither in the community, nor in the sim itself.

[88Reasons]

My biggest problem with all of this is that the same tracks are starting to get really, really, REALLY old. The game is great, and likely the most realistic sim ever made for PC, but that only carries so far when the actual content is lacking and development is at a standstill. They need to at least allow us to create our own tracks. I've heard the argument that they want to avoid "mod hell". Well, I dont see the big issue there. Its not like we're editing the physics of the cars or anything like that, just trying to have a fuller, richer experience. If they cant give us that, then theres no way I'll be buying S3 anyway. And for those of you that are going to say "You can make your own tracks, its called autocross", Im not talking about autocross. For my own purposes I just wanna be able to create some more challenging ovals like Darlington, Dover, Martisville, Bristol, Indy, etc.

[SamH]

So admit to me that the LFS is a good model.
Okay, I admit it. LFS is a brilliant business model. If I could devise and work by any business model, this is the business model I'd choose to work by.

Admit to me it's not lagging way behind the competition.
Yes, okay, I admit it. LFS is not lagging way behind the competition.

Happy now? :D

On a serious note, I don't think there is any direct competition for LFS at the moment. Neither do I think that iRacing sees LFS as direct competition. They're two different beasts, with different approaches to sim racing and I'm seeing increasingly that people happily flip between them to satisfy their needs in the week. Right now, especially with the free trials that are available for iRacing, nobody should feel like they're stuck without any options. There are lots of options. Times are good right now, if you broaden your horizon a little.

There are very few people who perceive racing sims as mutually exclusive, and I'm also of the opinion that you can have and enjoy more than one sim without feeling like you're betraying the developers of another.

You say you went on iRacing the other week and "it felt fresh, it felt new". Well.. it IS fresh and it IS new. You've played LFS a long time, so cut yourself a little slack and give iRacing a try. You owe it to yourself and you shouldn't feel bad about it. If you get bored with it, there's a good chance that LFS will feel alive again when you come back to it - and it might even have a new car by then, too :)

[MAGGOT]

But when I say fanboys of LFS I just mean that they stand by it too faithfully and always act, say and think positive when they have no reason to..

No that's the impression you're taking away.

Do you think before you speak? That's exactly what you said.

It'd be nice to go on and not feel like I'm playing a dated product. I went on iRacing at my freinds house a few weeks ago and it felt fresh, it felt new... I check the iRacing website and oh look, you can see and feel the development. It feels like an alive project.

LFS feels dead.

Then go play iRacing and leave us in peace for christ sake.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I think there are fewer long term members who are unrealistic about the speed of LFS development or the floors in it than there used to be. Most have now gone out and sampled other sims, and generally (with a few notable exceptions) no longer shun them for the sake of it. Notice that most of the people who are still blindly supportive of the Devs and the majority of those complaining about slow progress have registered relatively recently. The general consensus that I got from the LFS meet in January was that most had given up playing LFS, knew its flaws and weren't too bothered about how soon it got updated, that's not to say they weren't faithful fans though ;)

This is rather well said. Once again; it'd be head in the sand to think that the excitment level over LFS hasn't dropped over the last couple years - understandably so. The problem is when people get so subjective that they tune out normality and spaz out over it basically. The main thing to me is that if you're hot & bothered over a sim so much that you freak out, start accusing the devs of things and throwing feces at the people that don't feel the same way - then you probably REALLY need to either A) grow up, B) get a life, C) both. This is what Eric was really getting at, and he's 100% right and he should make no apology for saying so IMO.


TL;DR
That's too bad, you could've learned a thing or two, and possibly been less of a twit about it. What a baby.

And you think I care? Kawaiii kawiiii :D Since I'm being such a moron as you said earlier I'll not waste my already low energy resources with you.
If you didn't care, you would not have been saying the trash you've been saying over, and over, and over. You're transparent enough to make it obvious that you're torn up over the whole issue - using profanity, gnashing your teeth - I wouldn't be shocked if you've pounded your desk a few times already, maybe even bit some rope. Sunshine is healthy my friend!

So admit to me that the LFS is a good model. Admit to me it's not lagging way behind the competition.

I as well admit it 100% - and if I could work that way, or had the sack to venture out and do something so cool then I would. It's great. Now- why don't you admit to me that you could do better in his shoes, and / or wouldn't work the way they do given the opportunity - yeah, you'd be at your forum's beckon- call 24/7, delivering JUST what everyone bitched about post haste... right? :rolleyes:

No that's the impression you're taking away.
No, it's precisely and accurately what you're conveying, 100%. Either that or we should not beleive anything you say as what you really mean.

It's not any actual "quotes" per say.
No of course not - that'd be too simple, because that's what you've been saying... Hmm, call me craaaazy, I'm seeing a pattern here :scratchch

That's not just in this thread (because I don't see much of it)
Oh? before you saw lots of it; in fact, in a phrase I quoted you as saying twice, you said this thread was a perfect example of it.... remember?

:scratchch
Ever hear a swooshing sound when you read things?

I went on iRacing at my freinds house a few weeks ago and it felt fresh, it felt new... I check the iRacing website and oh look, you can see and feel the development. It feels like an alive project.

Well then, FFS, PLAY iRACING :)

Perhaps not call bullshit quite so often Sam.. If you really want me to spend 4 hours looking through hundreds of hours of conversations to multiple people for your precious quotes I will.

Not sure about him, but I'm dying to see it. But; if you don't care (as you said) then don't worry about it :tilt:


But I'd like to address a few points regarding the devs vs users "rights". And before you ask me "why bother, since you have abandoned LFS?", the answer is simply "because I care, since LFS was my main source of entertainment in the last 4 years. I want it to attract me again, as it did when I first discovered it".

Everyone wants that first romance again - but you'll never, ever have it no matter what they release. LFS was my main source of entertainment as well, and the nostalgia about it is great. But as with anything in life, you can't stay in one place forever :)

So, the argument "that's how the devs have decided to grow their own baby, so accept it or shutup/leave" sounds pretty poor to me. TBH I think that this kind of attitude shows nothing more than lack of real arguments against the growing complaints about known cons of the sim and its progress pace/model.

Fair enough, but the problem is that they haven't asked us for anything. If you want to buy it, great go for it. It is a good product and whatnot, but no matter how attached to or involved you become with it, you have no authentic right to it at all, and some struggle with that. We don't need "real arguments against the growing complaints", they are Just... Not... Relevant at all, in any way, objectively speaking. The progress (or lack thereof) and the pace (or lack thereof) is completely, 100% in the developers hands and has ZERO to do with US, AT ALL, EVER.... I don't know how to make this more clear? I'm seriously at a loss - why is this so hard to get? In fact here: guess what; there ARE no arguments against the complaints. The complaints ARE VALID to those that make them... The pace is slow, but it's the pace regardless of how anyone feels about it, period, end of discussion. yes it's slow. yes LFS could have some more features. WE *KNOW* that. It's just plain NOT up to us. Not sure what else to say about it.

The devs themselves "use" the users at least for beta testing, when they seek feedback through the test patches. Also, they depend on users to spread the word. On top of that, according to the devs, LFS's existance, progress and future is not based on money but on a vision instead. So, when you make the users part of your vision you can neither just shut them up at will nor suggest them to leave every time they address some totally valid points.

Wrong, the users PAY to use the software, and if they don't want to they don't have to. We are 100% free to give zero feedback in the test patch forum. When said users buys LFS, it's very clear what the implications are - I know what you're saying - "without us there'd be no LFS business model", and that's true. But everyone who's bought it did so whilst forfeiting any rights regarding it. If the majority was the S14s of the world, it would not have worked thus far - but it has.


Yes, okay, I admit it. LFS is not lagging way behind the competition.

Quite correct. Whilst iRacing generally does drive better, has better graphics and sound, LFS still has things iRacing doesn't. The detail in the secondary tier tire physics are better (sectioned tires, dirt in tires, visible flex etc). iRacing has no transmission modelling yet; or stalling even. I have no doubt that iRacing is moving foward of course, and technologically speaking they are the only two real sims that are viable at the moment, and both have some things over the other - but as you allude to below, they are focusing on different markets to a degree. Which is fine. I'll run both and be happy doing so; win/win.

[S14 DRIFT]

Then go play iRacing and leave us in peace for christ sake.

Ladies and gentlemen I present you exhibit A..............

To both BBT and Maggot. Because I say that iRacing is alive and (more importantly) feels like a life project, means I should go and play it? It's not the lack of so called updates about LFS that's bothering me. It's the lack of any sort of visible comeback from the Devs. Do we have a devblog? No... do we have frequent patches (less important but still).. No....

Someone above suggested it (sorry I forgot your name and CBA to scroll up) allowing people to mod LFS. I thought a while back this was a big no no.. However in the recent light of things I now think differently...


Consequently yes I can agree, iRacing is lagging in some some terms behind LFS, this is not plus and minus points of these sims. This is purely about (to me) the development speed and the "passion" that goes with it.

LFS feels like an old romance. And a seriously big update would bring in a few new toys and a few late nights, if you see what I'm saying. ;)

BBT, I'm beyond caring if you think what I'm saying is bullshit or not. It's my (and that of some others) opinion.

No I probably couldn't do better than Scavier in terms of coding a game. But I could sure as heck do a better job of keeping faith in the community and letting them know what's going on. But then again Scavier have never really told us what's going on. But that "oh well what if you were doing it" doesn't really work. I'm not so I don't have to think about that.

I don't think the idea is to give them everything they want. Infact it's nothing they want. Just to let them know they're working and some teasers as to what they're doing.

As I said to someone else this evening, you can call me what you like because a) you don't matter in my life b) sticks and stones? c) I've been called worse :shrug:

One point I will directly combat :

If you didn't care, you would not have been saying the trash you've been saying over, and over, and over. You're transparent enough to make it obvious that you're torn up over the whole issue - using profanity, gnashing your teeth - I wouldn't be shocked if you've pounded your desk a few times already, maybe even bit some rope. Sunshine is healthy my friend!

I swear alot across the forum. And in real life as well. Nothing's meant by it 99.9% of the time that's just me. I haven't even thought about hitting my desk, I'm relaxing listening to some music (thanks guys btw from my thread :)) and talking to some people. To think I'm getting even slightly worked up about this is a HUGGE (and very wrong). Nothing really matters less in my life. As I see it, we're all people with our own views, who will continue to clash heads until the thread is closed.

As for sunshine, well are you insinuating I don't have a life? Again a poor and perhaps ignorant judgement...

[MAGGOT]

Ladies and gentlemen I present you exhibit A..............

Excuse me? You are using my quote, telling you to do something else with your time which you claim is better, as an example that people can't see faults with LFS? What?

LFS DOES have faults. Many of them. I know this, I accept this, and I realise some may never be fixed. I have also never claimed otherwise, ever, and I am most certainly not a fanboy. I just think you're a moron and would love it if you left. I don't see how my comment could have led you to any other conclusion.

[S14 DRIFT]

Excuse me? You are using my quote, telling you to do something else with your time which you claim is better, as an example that people can't see faults with LFS? What?

LFS DOES have faults. Many of them. I know this, I accept this, and I realise some may never be fixed. I have also never claimed otherwise, ever, and I am most certainly not a fanboy. I just think you're a moron and would love it if you left. I don't see how my comment could have led you to any other conclusion.

Yay4u. I'm not talking so much about actual flaws with the program. I'm talking about flaws with the development (ie actual updates rather than the content of them).

And I'd have to draw a line at insulting someone. And some of you think I'M getting worked up? :razz:

FTR I have never said I'm going to stop playing LFS. I have also said that yes I do like iRacing but can't see it a financially viable outset for me at the moment. I have also said that since the only times I do tend to race on LFS is using the XFG do you really think a patch (flat out) bothers me? I'm not arguing for one, I'm just questioning why. If you want to continue I'll happily do so without the personal insults thankyou very much..

[jbirdaspec]

Lately I have been doing iRacing a lot. Since about March or so. I've had quite the eye opener being a part of that community. I feel bad saying it... but.. honestly the problem here (lfs) isn't the dev's or The number of cars, tracks, new drivers coming and old drivers hanging around etc... it's honestly the attitude and the lack of attempting to better the community surrounding LFS. Be a fly on the wall and look at this thread. Nothing! And I mean NOTHING! is getting any closure or going any which way of a direction. Very few good feelings being passed around and very little support to each other. Shit.. when someone does have a good idea 9 times out of 10 around here someone decides they are going to shoot down their good feeling. Maybe they like the company. Reminds me of every man for him self mode in UT99.

Perhaps that is why the iRacing forums are closed to currently subscribed members. It weeds out the people who don't care to better the situation.

I would really like to know when someone is going to try get noticed by the devs for a being a positive member and not a bitching fool. Maybe. Just maybe we should do something that gets the devs excited instead of us waiting around for them to get us excited. How often do you think they get that chance? I do believe this to be a 2 way street.

--Jay

[The Very End]

when someone does have a good idea 9 times out of 10 around here someone decides they are going to shoot down their good feeling.



Excelent said, and well true. And god forbid that demo users give a suggestion. A suggestion is a suggestion, and doesn't matter if your a demo user or not. I have seen good suggestions from demo users, but that just get flamed with comment following like this :

"You demo :really:"
"How can you ask for anything when you have not paid for the game?"

And blabla, flamewar ON.
True they have not payed for the game, but they are allowed to come with suggestion on the same line as everyone else, but again - as long as it's CONSTRUCTIVE. This forum seriously need to learn how to write constructive feedback to eachothers, specially when it comes to suggestions. Even if the topic creator did a poor job with explaining himself, and maybe the idea really is no good at all, it's better to be ignored or nicely be told "no" with a reason. Again we agree and disagree a lot on this forum, but neither of the cases should be needed to invovle flaming.
But it's not only demo users this is about, but any users that air their opinion / suggestion.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

That's a great post Jay.

And I do agree. The current tire physics model thread is rather good, and reminiscent of the old days, just a bit. There's even a good suggestion about how to improve the sounds now (one I don't beleive I've read before). However; rants generalising the forum or the devs, or the project at large are fruitless and contribute more to the problem the self appointed martyrs claim they are vigilant about. It's called hypocrisy.

iRacing is a totally different, and very professional atmopshere - even in terms of the heat that rises up now & then (which I haven't personally witnessed yet). I hate to say it but I think the fact that you have to pay really filters out a lot folks that just don't have a level of maturity. Surely some great people get excluded too but I guess whatever business model one choses, there will be compromises in one area or another.

"Bitching fool" .... that has a nice ring to it, I must say.

[Gunn]

What does this mean? S3 is far far away in the future. So far, you won't care about it when it gets released.I've been playing racing games and sims since they were invented and will probably always be interested in them. I am certain that I will care about any future releases. You can pretend to know what you are talking about, but your assumptions are completely irrelevant in this case.
Good racing sims have proven that they can enjoy a long life, your credibility however will evaporate even before the next test patch is released.

[Dibblah]

SamH - I know you like an open discussion and all, but Scawen has intimated a number of times (not recently, since he's been busy) that this forum is for good, clean wholesome discussion, not the airing of squeeky wheels impatiently waiting for their oil.

Please close this thread - It's been going round in circles for 4 pages now.

I would use the 'report post' button on many, many of these comments - for language alone, even though they pass filters. However, that adds to Scawen's workload, which NONE of us should want.

Cheers,

Allan.

[geeman1]

I would use the 'report post' button on many, many of these comments - for language alone, even though they pass filters. However, that adds to Scawen's workload, which NONE of us should want.That's why there are moderators on the forum...

[yeager]

Then go play iRacing and leave us in peace for christ sake.

Hear, hear, hear... S14... for the time you've spent tippy typing away on this forum you could've...

A) Gone outside and boosted your vitamin D production
B) Actually played a game to blow off a little tension which you seem to suffer from
C) Masturbated a lot, and to be honest, I think it would be more satisfying

You pontificate beyond belief to no real end and it seems only for attention of others on this forum. LFS is a great racing game, yes it lacks elements that some would consider "modern" e.g. graphics and user created content but it works and is great fun for the odd race. From your posts you display a level of irritation and dissatisfaction which is bordering on obsession.

Who cares about when S3 will be born and in what incarnation. LFS is fun to race on now, if your not happy, do something else. No seriously, the world is FULL of wonderful things to do, go do them...

[yeager]

My biggest problem with all of this is that the same tracks are starting to get really, really, REALLY old.

Bah... typical youth of today :) F1 has been racing at Silverstone since F1 began, I don't hear of drivers complaining "we need more new circuits, Silverstone is so last year!"

I find that some tracks come to life when I race on some servers. e.g. I used to really dislike the South City tracks, I could never really drive them well. Then the CTRA came along and I got into some awesome races with experienced drivers in the GT2 class and the city tracks had a totally new lease of life... it's not about the game its about the racers and the servers.

S3, bah, who cares! S2 has hours and hours of great racing to be had and it doesn't require more tracks, more cars or fancy shading algorithms. I just requires MORE racers, even better when those racers are experienced...

Since the CTRA went pear shaped, SR and FM have been hosting some most excellent FOX and GTi races. Sure I sometimes get frustrated by poor collision detection issues, but overall life is good in LFS. Live for the now people!

[yeager]

To think I'm getting even slightly worked up about this is a HUGGE (and very wrong). Nothing really matters less in my life.

Are you trying to insult my intelligence? The amount of time you've spent waffling on this and many, oh my SO many, LFS threads and yet you try to convince the community that nothing matters less?

Poppycock... you are in total need of the attention that is directed at you as a result of the constant, obsessive posting on this forum. If you really think otherwise you need to see someone about your mental health.

[migf1]

Everyone wants that first romance again - but you'll never, ever have it no matter what they release. LFS was my main source of entertainment as well, and the nostalgia about it is great. But as with anything in life, you can't stay in one place forever :)
Especially when this place stays still, while everything else around it evolves :)
Actually LFS was not my first romance, Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix 2 was, back in mid 90s. This is not about first romance for me, it's about loosing hope and honestly worrying for the future of a sim I really got involved with, since the whole thing around it inspired me to do so back then

I happen to be one of those who created, organized, administrated, promoted, managed and maintained the LFS Greek community through GVR team (http://gvrteam.gr/) in the last 4 years. The important thing here is that during the last year or so I was pretty much left struggling alone with the LFS organizing/maintaining/administrating part of the community, while the LFS racing part of the community not only keeps loosing old timers but it also suffers from gradually lower numbers of new people joining in. Fortunately all those years we managed to attract a lot of guys in the community, so it can run in almost "auto pilot mode" for some time. Sadly though, without hope, progress and feedback to spice up users' interest, chances are that things will go even more downhill.

So I like to believe I know first hand what I'm talking about.

Fair enough, but the problem is that they haven't asked us for anything.
Yes they have! Through their working and business model they have directly or indirectly asked us to help them achieve their vision and to spread the word. In other words, they want(ed) us to share and be part of their vision. They want(ed) us to share with them their 2-parties (devs and users) philosophy of doing things. Unless I'm living on another planet in the last 4 years or so, Scavier never intended their vision to be another cold, soul-less, strict business product. They seek(ed), even invested on a cozy, interactive environment, inspiring both the devs and the users to be able to give & take, based more on human feelings instead of common business/advertising rules and methods of doing things.

Devs delivered more than they promised, but also users delivered more than expected. Both being naturally compromised now and then.

So, the point of view I developed above hopefully also answers the rest of your comments regarding my previous post.

To sum it up in a line, when something is built on mutual inspiration for a project, it's at the very least awkward for either party to completely forget about this fundamental basis when things get a bit rough :razz:

[Mackie The Staggie]

Lately I have been doing iRacing a lot. Since about March or so. I've had quite the eye opener being a part of that community. I feel bad saying it... but.. honestly the problem here (lfs) isn't the dev's or The number of cars, tracks, new drivers coming and old drivers hanging around etc... it's honestly the attitude and the lack of attempting to better the community surrounding LFS. Be a fly on the wall and look at this thread. Nothing! And I mean NOTHING! is getting any closure or going any which way of a direction. Very few good feelings being passed around and very little support to each other. Shit.. when someone does have a good idea 9 times out of 10 around here someone decides they are going to shoot down their good feeling. Maybe they like the company. Reminds me of every man for him self mode in UT99.



Perhaps that is why the iRacing forums are closed to currently subscribed members. It weeds out the people who don't care to better the situation.



I would really like to know when someone is going to try get noticed by the devs for a being a positive member and not a bitching fool. Maybe. Just maybe we should do something that gets the devs excited instead of us waiting around for them to get us excited. How often do you think they get that chance? I do believe this to be a 2 way street.



--Jay


100% Agree with this and quoted just to bring it onto the new page.

This whole thread has been one embarrassing fail after the other, and I so wanted not to get involved, however some of the cack that is coming out from certain people is beyond a joke, and from people who should really just know better.

The forum has taken a serious nose dive; from whatever reason I’m not going to portion blame or single out posters. I will however single out steps that I think we should ALL take in an attempt to return the friendly atmosphere and generally good feeling that has disappeared from the board.

1- All Scirocco threads to be closed and any poster creating one to be warned only once….do it again and bye bye, forum rights removed.

2- Anyone flaming suggestions (yes even those that were posted before) should be in turned flamed…..preferably on a BBQ drenched in a BBQ sauce glaze, for about 2 hours or until nice and tender.

3- A pinned, closed thread used by the devs to update users on how things are going. It does not need to be a weekly blog, but more of an update every 2/3 months stating plans and problems which they have ran into.

4- Cake……everyone reading the board should do when eating cake. Nobody argues or bitches when eating cake. The world is too good when you have cake.

5- It should be a Chocolate cake Amendment - any cake is acceptable, however Choclate cake should remain the ideal cake to have

6- Those with diabetes….there are low sugar alternative cakes on the market, or recipes can be found using google.

7- At the end of the day, it’s a game. Enjoy it, cherish it, and race it. Join leagues and try new combos. Push your self and take yourself out of the comfort soon. I can guarantee that about 80% of those who are complaining that LFS is stale, have not raced the LX class around South City, or haven’t taken the MRT out on Fern Bay, or…well the list goes on

8-Remember laugh, and the world laughs with you (just don’t do it on the street corner at 4:15 in the afternoon. That’s my time, and you may be taken to a padded room)

[tristancliffe]

Not speaking for myself, but what if you don't like chocolate cake? My girlfriend is much keener on cheesecake for instance...


I'd love to see the LFS community as closed knit and friendly as it was 5+ years ago, but with so many people, and so many opinions about the direction of LFS, combined with the frustration that LFS's development 'strategy' brings to impatient users that's highly unlikely. Every aspect of LFS has at least two factions - the +1s and the -1s - some think ABS is a benefit to newbies, whilst others think it's for girls. Some want to see advertising hoardings server-side customisable, whilst others don't want to suffer the bandwidth hit that'll bring (however small).

With hundreds, no, thousands of aspects and multiple 'factions' within, combined with this being an internet forum, I'm shocked so many of use get along. Sure there is the odd stirrer trying to breach the peace, but in the most part (and I've been here a while, so I think I have an idea what it was like) we're a nice place to be. Just as long as you don't mention traction control or newer BMW F1 models :p

[Gills4life]

Not speaking for myself, but what if you don't like chocolate cake? My girlfriend is much keener on cheesecake for instance...

I suppose you want Jaffa Cake. :tilt:

I really don't see why there is so much impatience. I have been playing LFS since 2005, granted that's not as long as some of the old timers, but even so, most games that I have played I would have been completely bored of after 4 years! Yet... everytime I go and try something different, I find myself coming back to LFS time and time again. Just because it's not being updated every bloody second does not mean you cannot just enjoy what you have now. Surely the best way to wait for new things is just to enjoy what you've got?! That's a better way of passing the time than moaning about it. :shrug: