Force Feedback - Any way to feel the car.

[Del-Dredd]

Does LFS2 have any FF effects so you can tell what the car is doing, I can feel bumps and the rumble strips etc but the actual car feels dead. I get more feedback on grip etc from the sound. Without these sounds their would be no feedback on what the car is doing grip wise.
In the GTL demo amongst others, you can actually feel the car on the edge of grip etc and feel cornering forces which enable better control.

Maybe its just my settings, or maybe there are more advanced settings in a LFS file or something, any help would be appreciated.

I am using a Momo Racing Force, and enjoy LFS2 but i think if I can sort the Force feedback would enable me to be quicker.

Del

[KiDCoDEa]

In the GTL demo amongst others, you can actually feel the car on the edge of grip etc and feel cornering forces which enable better control.


i was about to help you cfg until i read that. this is a joke right? isi ff is more canned than milli-vannilli live performance.
only ff better than lfs, is n2003. we'll get there...

[bobvanvliet]

Well, I've got the Momo Racing and I have quite a good feel for the car. Especially front wheel lock-ups are very evident in the FF, you can suddenly turn the wheels with less effort and you feel the sliding. I get a lot of feel from the FF, but as you said, tyre squeel also plays a large role.

I have the FF strength at 100% in the windows settings and at 60 in LFS. Also, make sure to disable "enable centering spring in Force Feedback games" in the windows settings.

[tristancliffe]

Not tried GTL (I refuse to), but GTR's FF was a joke in terms of temming you what was happening. And I've just tried rFactor, and it's got to be the worse FF ever.

LFS tells you all you need to know, and doesn't lie like ALL other games. NR2003 is close in terms of feel, but I still prefer LFS's.

[Gunn]

Del it sounds like your FFB is not working properly, I use a Momo and I can feel everything in the game.

[steve]

Del it sounds like your FFB is not working properly, I use a Momo and I can feel everything in the game.

I also have a momo, but yet we can't feel when a car understeers, the steering should go light, right now it doesnt.

[tailing]

I have the FF strength at 100% in the windows settings and at 60 in LFS. Also, make sure to disable "enable centering spring in Force Feedback games" in the windows settings.

There is a bug with some of the logitech wheels resulting in a small ffb dead zone in the centre of the wheel. To fix this you need to enable the centering spring but set it to zero rather than just disable it. I certainly noticed the difference on my Momo Racing.

[Bob Smith]

There was a discussion about this before, and basically most people agreed it DOESN'T actually go light in a real car, so it's just an affect lots of other racing games have put in as a driving aid.

I can feel when I put too much power down in a FWD car though, the steering goes light then.

[steve]

There was a discussion about this before, and basically most people agreed it DOESN'T actually go light in a real car

have these people actually driven a REAL car and know what understeer actually is? Im gonna assume no and no. When the fronts wheels regain grip from major understeer, its really violent feeling, especially when your moving fast.

Thats because most road cars have power steering, even a car with power steering you can still feel it go light, just nowhere near as much as a car with no power steering. Of course you can feel when the front tires go light when your on the gas in a FWD car, but that has noting do do with not feeling the understeer in the game :)

[Gunn]

I also have a momo, but yet we can't feel when a car understeers, the steering should go light, right now it doesnt.Try the tip above by tailing.

Install the latest driver and software.

[steve]

Try the tip above by tailing.

Install the latest driver and software.

I have the latest drivers/software, and ive used 4 different FF wheels, its quite simple, LFS does not have the effect coded into the force feedback.

[Woz]

have these people actually driven a REAL car and know what understeer actually is? Im gonna assume no and no. When the fronts wheels regain grip from major understeer, its really violent feeling, especially when your moving fast.

Thats because most road cars have power steering, even a car with power steering you can still feel it go light, just nowhere near as much as a car with no power steering. Of course you can feel when the front tires go light when your on the gas in a FWD car, but that has noting do do with not feeling the understeer in the game :)

In LFS you can feel power understeer just fine and the wheels go light as expected and with other forms the steering does not always go light as this depends on SO MANY FACTORS. Have you actually thought about WHAT you are feeling while you drive a car and WHERE you feel it from?

My guess is that you are attributing FAR too much information to the wheel when in reality you feel things light tires losing and gaining grip through changes in G force through your BODY.

[steve]

Try this, go down a straight stretch in a RWD car, turn the wheel full lock left or right so the car is understeering, you tell me if it the steering go's light in the force feedback.

[DodgeRacer]

Try this, go down a straight stretch in a RWD car, turn the wheel full lock left or right so the car is understeering, you tell me if it the steering go's light in the force feedback.
... you cant physicaly turn the wheel fast enough to completly break traction instantly, chance are it would result in a spin, rather than the desired effect, now in FWD car you MIGHT be able to do it but it would still be rather difficult

[Gunn]

I have the latest drivers/software, and ive used 4 different FF wheels, its quite simple, LFS does not have the effect coded into the force feedback.
Did you set the centering spring to 0%?

[Woz]

Try this, go down a straight stretch in a RWD car, turn the wheel full lock left or right so the car is understeering, you tell me if it the steering go's light in the force feedback.

Now try this. Get in a real RWD car and drive down a straight road instantly go full lock... oh wait you cant to that IRL because you normally have 900 degrees of lock to deal with.

Its worth getting a DFP for this game. Having a realistic level of lock on all the cars lets the FF give you far more info. Also if your PC will take it jump the FF steps up to 256 instead of 128 in the settings files.

Light steering does not happen on EVERY car the same BTW. There are many factors such as tires and their compound along with car setup and geometry etc.

[Woz]

I have the latest drivers/software, and ive used 4 different FF wheels, its quite simple, LFS does not have the effect coded into the force feedback.

All you should feel through the FF are the forces that are in play on the front wheels of your car as calculated in real time by the physics engine. There are no other FF effects in LFS at all nor should their be.

So when you feel the rumble strips its because the rumble strips put a twisting force on your front wheels which then get transmitted to your steering wheel as per RL, the same with every other effect you feel.

Hope that helps

[steve]

Did you set the centering spring to 0%?

Yes.

The issue is not about 'full lock' or not. It doesnt need to be at full lock for the cars to understeer, I was trying to give a simple example.

When a car understeers in real life, the feel through the steering wheel gets light, its as simple as that.

[tailing]

I have the latest drivers/software, and ive used 4 different FF wheels, its quite simple, LFS does not have the effect coded into the force feedback.

Just to clear this point up, LFS will never have this effect 'coded into the force feedback'. LFS takes it's ffb directly from the forces exerted on the front wheels in game.
Now I'm not saying it's perfect and I don't have the experience to really comment on what you feel in a real car when the front wheels understeer. If there is something wrong though it's more than likely somewhere in the physics engine, most likely suspension or tyres.

[tristancliffe]

Yes it does Steve. And LFS does the same, for me. However, this violent snap-back you talk about is because, either in real life, or in LFS, you have simply wound too much lock on. If you steered less, you'd never get this violence. It's the tyres hopping and crashing and banging against the tarmac as they cannot rotate freely, because you are trying to force a slip-angle of 30 degrees or something.

[DeliriumT]

Maybe this could help the discussion :):

http://www.windfactor.net/IMG1697.JPG (http://www.windfactor.net/IMG1697.JPG)

DeliriumT

PS: seems I cant post in-line images... typical 10post threshold?
EDIT: nevermind, it was an option in my profile :P

[Del-Dredd]

Hi all

I was not expecting so much discussion and thanks for the suggestions, here are my current settings in windows.

Combined axis - No
Enable FF - yes
Effects strength - 97%
Spring strength - 97%
Damper strength - 0%
Center spring enabled - yes
Center Spring strength - 0%

I tried setting Spring strength to 0% and it did help and seemed to drive a lot better. This was suggested in another forums thread which I read.

I know different Sims feel better with various settings as some rely on spring strength others do not. I was just after some settings to try.

As for GTL and GTR for that matter, I have all aids switched off and dont use the default FFB settings. I use the settings produced by Zevious Zoquis in my plr file. These make a vast improvement to the quality of feedback. My N2003 settings again have been researched on the Net but I cannot remember where from, but I get excellent feel in GTP and the 330 Mod which are the ones I run most with this engine.

And KiDCoDEa, if you had bothered to help maybe I would have changed my settings and agreed with you.

Del

[tpa]

I share the opinion, that the steering doesn't get light enough when understeering heavily :nod:
I am not a fan of GTR either, but it's a known fact that it has been developed with the help of professional race drivers. So if they coded this artificial effect for light steering into the FF, I dare to say they did it for a reason.

[tristancliffe]

Drive to Win ^^^ Nice book, although a bit misleading in places imo...

[BlackSpider]

From experience, under-steer at high speed (If slight) can cause the wheel to become 'light' and loose. Heavy understeer normally results in a 'thrashing' from the wheel. This was without power steering, by the way. I think the difference is slight, but noticable. I don't have FF wheel, so I don't know how it works/feels, but this is my experience of throwing a car in to a spin at 112mph. It can feel lighter.... But if it feels light enough to make a 'genuine' difference to the feeling, that's worthy of such a long discussion, your car is likely to roll... Per experience again.

[Gunn]

I have removed the off topic posts from this thread.

And just for the record, it's ok for people to disagree with each other. We don't mind debates as long as it doesn't get abusive and personal. :)

Please don't bait each other. If you find someone really annoying, add them to your ignore list instead of provoking them. Peace.

Now back on topic please :wave:

[avellis]

IMHO the best force feedback feeling I've experienced is in Richard Burns Rally. One cannot emphasize how realistic this game is.

LFS comes second. :)

[Gunn]

Now back on topic please :wave:
3...2...1...Now!

[tailing]

Combined axis - No
Enable FF - yes
Effects strength - 97%
Spring strength - 97%
Damper strength - 0%
Center spring enabled - yes
Center Spring strength - 0%


I've also seen it recommended that you should set damper to 0% but it just felt terrible to me, no resistance in the wheel whatsoever and a weird click/bump as the cars weight would shift from one side to the other. Spring and Damper are the two main forces produced by the wheel, putting either to 0% just doesn't make sense imo.

Edit: Talking in relation to the Momo Racing here.

[Woz]

I've also seen it recommended that you should set damper to 0% but it just felt terrible to me, no resistance in the wheel whatsoever and a weird click/bump as the cars weight would shift from one side to the other. Spring and Damper are the two main forces produced by the wheel, putting either to 0% just doesn't make sense imo.

Edit: Talking in relation to the Momo Racing here.

Setting spring and damper to 0% is what is recommended by the developers beecause the only forces created are done by the physics engine.

[tailing]

Well I could be wrong but my understanding of it all is that setting them to zero is like telling the wheel to ignore all the information that the game is sending it.
In the end I think ffb is so subjective that you should just adjust things until you find what is right for you.

[durbster]

From experience (with power steering in my car, and none in karting :D) I know the wheel should go light with understeer and I'm surprised anyone is suggesting otherwise. If the front wheels aren't gripping then how could they put up any resistance?

The FF in LFS seems a bit odd at times but with so many other forces acting on you in real life, it's really difficult to relate that to a PC. The FF on oversteer seems a bit strange to me too, as it seems to encourage you to lose the back end and you have to fight it to counter-steer. I've never experienced that in real life but like I say, it's almost impossible to compare the two directly.

I doubt FF in LFS models the front wheels only. If that were true then why the see-saw effect on straights? Has it actually been stated by the devs or is it one of those rumours that's become fact? ;)

It wouldn't make any sense to do that anyway, since FF is a fantastic opportunity to give lots more feedback to the user, about weight distribution etc. GPL simply based it around the centre of gravity iirc, and that worked extremely well.

I agree that RBR has excellent FF. You don't notice it working when you're driving, which is always the sign that they've got it right. It's extremely fluid :)

[Del-Dredd]

Thanks for the info, I think my problem was that I did not have the FF set high enough in game (racing on tarmac course). I increased it to 145% and the car felt a lot better, I could even feel what felt like torque steer. From what I have read the setting obviously depends on what car and what track surface or type ie Autocross, Rallycross or Tarmac you are racing on.

The ability to change the Force volume so to speak while in car and racing is a great benefit and enables you to do this.

By the way I have been having a great time on some of the Autocross layouts people have posted here and on RSC, will have to give it a go and design something.
I will keep an eye on the thread incase someone proposes more settings, but I am happy with what I have set up at the moment.

Thanks again

Del

[Rotary]

My windows settings are as follows:

Combined axis - No
Enable FF - yes
Effects strength - 100%
Spring strength - 0%
Damper strength - 0%
Center spring enabled - yes
Center Spring strength - 0%

I like the above. I usually tweak the ffb strength in game along with castor to get a better feel.

[ruckus37]

Not tried GTL (I refuse to), but GTR's FF was a joke in terms of temming you what was happening. And I've just tried rFactor, and it's got to be the worse FF ever.

LFS tells you all you need to know, and doesn't lie like ALL other games. NR2003 is close in terms of feel, but I still prefer LFS's.

Rfactor has not even been released yet, not even a demo, it's a Multiplayer Test, and you are referring to the FF in a multiplayer test version????

[Bob Smith]

The FF in LFS seems a bit odd at times but with so many other forces acting on you in real life, it's really difficult to relate that to a PC. The FF on oversteer seems a bit strange to me too, as it seems to encourage you to lose the back end and you have to fight it to counter-steer.
You know that's odd, I've read other people mentioning that, yet I can practically let LFS doing the countersteering for me (though it won't recover the slide as quickly as I could, nor prevent it in the first place).

Perhaps it's more related to the users wheel and settings. I can feel everything happening almost before it's happened, which helps me keep the car pointing in the right direction.

[durbster]

You know that's odd, I've read other people mentioning that, yet I can practically let LFS doing the countersteering for me (though it won't recover the slide as quickly as I could, nor prevent it in the first place).

Perhaps it's more related to the users wheel and settings. I can feel everything happening almost before it's happened, which helps me keep the car pointing in the right direction.

Interesting. I haven't really played with the FF settings much so perhaps I was a bit premature in commenting. So do you get light steering when the fronts wash out (on the RWD cars specifically)?

[bobvanvliet]

I do. And when the back starts going, I can also feel that in the wheel (because the fronts want to keep going straight).

And as the other Bob said, letting the wheel do what it wants and just helping it a bit usually recovers a slide.

[DeliriumT]

Yes, me too.

I feel the wheels going 'light' and as Bob said I almost can let the FF to countersteer by itself when oversteering.

My Momo Racing settings are:
Overall=100%
Spring=0%
Damper=0%
Enable centering...=Unchecked

DeliriumT

[steve]

You guys are only feeling the FWD cars steering going light turning while accelerating I bet, and that is not what we were talking about :)

[Bob Smith]

My Momo Racing settings are:
Overall=100%
Spring=0%
Damper=0%
Enable centering...=Unchecked
Same as me, although I've got centering check (but at 0%).

Steve - this is RWDs as well. The feeling is certainly nowhere near as obvious as in other games though. I mean my friend had a go on LFS the other day and asked me "Is FFB on?" and I'm like "errr, yeah". So I turn it down to 0% and then he can feel the difference. My point? The FFB in LFS is really subtle, it takes time to get used to it. But it IS good. I can often feel a slide about to happen in RWDs and prevent it from occuring with a little centering of the wheel. And the RB4 on rallycross is awesome, I can just position the car into any angle of slide I want without spinning. Such fun. :D

[ysu]

I think while the matter has been discussed over and over many times, and yes the devs said the FF is simply the forces coming through the front driving axes from the wheels, it worth a few words.

I think GTR's FF was fantastic...on MS FF wheel. I tried it with my new DFP and it's not so good.

Also my opinion that simply giving the forces to the FF wheel seems to have it's merits, while on the other hand - indeed - we knowingly put aside the chance to give even more feedback on what the car's doing. Yes, this is simulator. But it's also a game.

And (also IMO) the LFS FF is not too great. The ff basically locks the wheel when the car is stopped and you press the brake. It is sawing in the middle. It does not seem to give me correct info on RWD cars (some does not agree some does, this is merely my opinion)

I think the physics need some fixing too, so these may be interconnected. (grip of tyres, gravity, jumping/rolling on curbs, flying when hitting the pit wall parts...)

Until the physics and/or ff effects are fixed I judge by the tyre noise, it's very accurate. The ff usually lags quite a bit anyway (see the 301 threads for proof if you need).

But hey, this is merely a game in development. It's great, great fun, but needs fixing in probably many areas in my opinion.

On a side note: there's no such thing as 'it uses the forces so it's accurate'.
There are way too many thigns simulated - more or less correctly - to say it's the real thing. It'll always be canned to a certain level. It's a programmed virtual simulation of a reality with highly reduced number of variables and components, represented on a 2D screen and a plastic wheel (actually many different wheels with different characteristics).

Please don't tell me it's real. :-) but it's a good game! :thumb:

[Woz]

From experience (with power steering in my car, and none in karting :D) I know the wheel should go light with understeer and I'm surprised anyone is suggesting otherwise. If the front wheels aren't gripping then how could they put up any resistance?

The FF in LFS seems a bit odd at times but with so many other forces acting on you in real life, it's really difficult to relate that to a PC. The FF on oversteer seems a bit strange to me too, as it seems to encourage you to lose the back end and you have to fight it to counter-steer. I've never experienced that in real life but like I say, it's almost impossible to compare the two directly.

I doubt FF in LFS models the front wheels only. If that were true then why the see-saw effect on straights? Has it actually been stated by the devs or is it one of those rumours that's become fact? ;)

It wouldn't make any sense to do that anyway, since FF is a fantastic opportunity to give lots more feedback to the user, about weight distribution etc. GPL simply based it around the centre of gravity iirc, and that worked extremely well.

I agree that RBR has excellent FF. You don't notice it working when you're driving, which is always the sign that they've got it right. It's extremely fluid :)

I am sure Scawen stated how it works although it might take a huge search on RSC to find the post. And as to it being strange to just base the FF on the front wheels, Why?

When the back steps out the front wheels will try to track the direction of travel etc so just by letting the forces on the fronts drive the FF you get all of the required information about the front and back of the car in a way that will be natural to you if you have put a real car into under or oversteer. you also feel the steering forces lighten slightly as the back nears edge of grip. As stated by Bob, it is more subtle than other games that play effects when certain things happen, but all the information is there.

For info the FF in RBR is actually done in the same way as well from what I know.

[atledreier]

'Everybody' agree the FF in RBR is good. 'Everybody' agree the FWD FF in LFS is good. 'Everybody' agree RBR and LFS do FF the same way. All the cars in RBR have driven front wheels, no? :scratchch

[steve]

All I would like it to feel front wheels understeer, thats not to much to ask. Other sims have it, why not LFS? LFS is supposed to a the all mighty SIM and be very accurate, well when you understeer hard in a real car the steering goes light and sometimes shaky, but why not in LFS? People say they can feel the steering go light in the game, they lie, I played LFS on about 10 different PC's and with 5 different force feedback wheels.

[atledreier]

Calling me a liar is not gonna get you very far, Steve. Settle down.

[AndroidXP]

I think the only instantly noticeable difference between LFS and Real Life™ FF is the obvious missing vibrations of many things that you not only feel through the body, but also through the steering wheel. Things where you don't have any sideways forces acting on the front wheels (and are therefore not felt in LFS) like some road bumps and the general roughness of bad tarmac for example.

Now, I know that we'd need a FF wheel that could also generate vibrations or up/down/forward and back movements (not only rotating left/right) to accurately simulate this, but leaving something completely out just because we cannot do it 100% is not the way to go IMO.

So what I'd like to see is: an option to turn simulated vibrations on, which would translate bumps etc. in actual small & short left/right movements. These should not be 'canned' (aka pre-programmed) effects but the actual up/down/whatever forces should be used to calculate an appropriate FF behaviour.

I know that there would be some guesswork included and the ideal device for this would probably FF pants, but I'd rather have only 97% "real" FF but I can feel when I go straight over rails (or other big and obvious obstacles) than having 100% and not feeling anything at all, because behold, that thing didn't produce any sideways forces because the angle wasn't right for this to happen.

And before I have to get my flameproof suit, I repeat: option.

[steve]

Calling me a liar is not gonna get you very far, Steve. Settle down.
where did I call YOU a lier? oh wait nowhere, roofles

[bobvanvliet]

People say they can feel the steering go light in the game, they lie, I played LFS on about 10 different PC's and with 5 different force feedback wheels.
Q.E.D. :tilt:

[BWX232]

For the first poster- "Del-Dredd" -- just try this and see what you think.


Overall 55, spring 145, damper 0... See if you get more feeling "around the center"....
Or maybe even 60/140/0... Also try un-checking the centering box altogether.

Adjust FF in game while driving with < and > keys.. Some cars feel like they need about 100 in game and some feel really strong with as little as 30... so don't be afraid to dial it in with each car until it feels right. I have a driving force, a Momo racing, and a DFP.. DFP is great with LFS BTW, but so is the momo racing, it is just super sensitive compared to a DFP in 540 degree mode.

I think the mechanics of the wheel add enough drag so that no damper is needed in the Logitech CP. The damper just adds a constant force, slowing down all the movement.. It helps control your movements though, and might even simulate the naturally occurring drag in the steering system of a real car.. Don't go crazy with it though, try 5 to 10, even that much makes quite a difference in the game.

[durbster]

I am sure Scawen stated how it works although it might take a huge search on RSC to find the post. And as to it being strange to just base the FF on the front wheels, Why?

Simply because the only time the steering wheel really tells you anything is when the fronts have no grip and it goes light. Everything else that you need to know when driving comes from the feeling in your arse. You don't drive according to the feeling in your hands, if you did you'd always react too late.

Basically, the forces acting on a steering wheel in real life are not the most important ones, and therefore it doesn't make sense to use the only tool we have to translate feeling for that purpose.

Anyway, next time I fire up LFS I'm going to play with the settings. It's not bad by any means, but there are some things about it that don't seem quite right.

[bobvanvliet]

Simply because the only time the steering wheel really tells you anything is when the fronts have no grip and it goes light.
That's not true, as I stated before:

I do. And when the back starts going, I can also feel that in the wheel (because the fronts want to keep going straight).So when that happens, you can feel the fronts wanting to steer outwards.

But you are right that you will always miss the feeling of the car through your backside. That said I don't know if it's the best idea to compensate this with unrealistic FF (as in more than just the force from the simulated front wheels).

[durbster]

That's not true, as I stated before

OK, I thought you were talking about the effect in LFS, whereas my comment was about the effect in real life. Confusing eh :)

[tristancliffe]

I'm sorry, but I DO feel the front go a bit light on the limit. I may not have the consistency to do well in every race, but I have the raw speed, so I kinda know what I'm talking about.

The wheel force seems to build up to a peak, then drop off a bit (although the drop off never goes back to zero, there's always some force there). It's a subtle effect, but I'm positive it IS there...

[mrodgers]

I will second the opinion of BWX232

[QUOTE]For the first poster- "Del-Dredd" -- just try this and see what you think.


Overall 55, spring 145, damper 0... See if you get more feeling "around the center"....
Or maybe even 60/140/0... Also try un-checking the centering box altogether.

Adjust FF in game while driving with < and > keys.. Some cars feel like they need about 100 in game and some feel really strong with as little as 30... so don't be afraid to dial it in with each car until it feels right. I have a driving force, a Momo racing, and a DFP.. DFP is great with LFS BTW, but so is the momo racing, it is just super sensitive compared to a DFP in 540 degree mode. [/QOUTE]

Since the arguement on RSC about the FF in RWD, I've tried these settings with my momo and can now feel the RWD much better. I use to have an occillation at center and couldn't countersteer the rear coming out at all. I would overcorrect everytime, then occillate the opposite way and around I went. BWX's settings cured this for me. I now find myself easily reacting and correcting the tail coming out in the FZR and FZ50. I'm not very good with a loose setup, I tend to hang the tail out quite often and these settings helped me tremendously. Trouble with these settings is that when I switch to FWD, they seem to do the opposite and I have to change the spring back to "0" for them. But I no longer like FWD since I've started using the spring setting for my Momo. I now want to drive RWD. In the S2 demo I had to switch to the GTi from the GT because of the FF. In S2 alpha I really wanted the FZR, but couldn't drive it until I tried the spring setting.

And FWIW, I think people set the FF way too high. I see people setting it at 100%, even saw a post here I think about setting it at 145%. I've never driven a vehicle that the wheel was that difficult to turn as when you have LFS set at 100+%. I use 60% in windows/profiler and about 35% in LFS.

[Bob Smith]

And FWIW, I think people set the FF way too high. I see people setting it at 100%, even saw a post here I think about setting it at 145%. I've never driven a vehicle that the wheel was that difficult to turn as when you have LFS set at 100+%. I use 60% in windows/profiler and about 35% in LFS.
I was going to post something similar. I use 100% in windows and 60% in game AND I DON'T CHANGE IT BETWEEN CARS. Why? Because some cars are supposed to have light FFB and others strong, so why make them all feel the same? They are supposed to be different and that's one of the plus points of the FFB in LFS.

[-wes-]

I dont think you should be switching your weel settings when changing cars, You should alter your driving to suit the car instead.

The cars are MENT to feel and handle diferently. And you will stunt the development of your driving skills if you refuse to adapt to the car your driving.

I think you should keep the settings the same for all the driving sims you have, it will make it easyer to compare them.

lfs doesn't use the damper effect you can set it to what ever you want, gtr might but I cant remember.

The most important one to have at 0% or off is the 'centring spring strength'
As the weel driver will add a fake force that pulls the weel to centre.

http://www.-wes-.f2s.com/dfp.jpg

[T.K.Jode]

Interesting thread, I think I will toss in my 2 cents....

I've driven only a handful of cars in my life, and I'd like to think I know a thing or two about the dynamics of understeer and oversteer, and possibly how they apply to LFS.

I've found that the amount the wheel loosens up when understeering varies car to car slightly. There's still a definite FEELING to it, almost as though you've just driven over something slippery. The amount of bucking the wheel does is extremely dependent on the road surface, of which LFS's is utterly flat for the sake of argument.

I think everyone will agree that when you're understeering, your front wheels are not rotating at the rate which the road is passing under you... on top of that the road is not moving paralell to the wheel's preferred axis of travel. This means that a small perpendicular force is being applied to the side of the wheel, while at the same time, the usual forces that apply on the axis of travel are reduced (which is what causes that loose feeling).

Depending on the weight of the car, the amount of weight transfer during understeering, and more importantly the inclination on the steering assembly on the actual wheels, more or less of that force is translated to the wheel. An inclination perfectly centered on the wheel, you will feel very little, but an inclination slightly off-centre (normal for sports cars) will translate more of that perpendicular force caused by sliding the fronts to the steering column.

Now that we've lost the ability to adjust the inclination value for the cars, it's hard to test to see if this would give us more or less feel. I've found that in S1 that different inclinations send more or less road forces to the wheel. Driving in the dirt with higher inclination would give me sore arms sending the RB4 through the rally courses.

In real life, I'll equate this to driving my mom's old Pontiac Sunbird vs her Pontiac Grand Am. The Sunbird was a smaller car, but fairly heavy, and had a very tight steering column. Road forces were translated relatively well to the steering column, despite the power steering and everything. When I'd understeer (usually in the rain or snow) the steering column would loosen slightly, but it was still tight enough as the wheels were still trying to follow the road as much as possible. The Grand Am, on the other hand, is a larger heavy car with a little more power, but is much easier ride in terms of the steering column. I've found that understeering this car made a larger difference, possibly due to a different inclination on the steering assembly (possibly something else), where the wheel turns to nothing and it feels like I'm in mid-air (kinda scary the first time it happens).


So it's my humble opinion that the understeer feedback (or lack of force on the wheel, rather) is due to the static inclination set per car.

Personally, in LFS, when I'm sliding under coasting, I can feel the wheels slowly start to regain grip as it slows down, and this is how I can gauge when I can snap the wheel back into place. I've got a DFP running in 900 degree mode, and even then it's quite a quick ramp-up to full grip, so it's possible that on the MOMO's with a much smaller lock, that you're hardly even feeling it. And if you're going straight and you turn to lock instantly at 120mph, you're just going to have a wicked perpendicular force on the sides of the wheels... even at only 30 degrees lock, it's a much higher force than any lack of grip on the preferred axis of travel for the wheel, so don't be surprised if it doesn't go 'light' because the sidewalls are getting the workout of their life and all that perpendicular force is getting sent to the steering column.


That's my best diagnosis :)

[VorTeX3k]

Del it sounds like your FFB is not working properly, I use a Momo and I can feel everything in the game.
No, he just doesn't know, that the FF from a game like GTR "simulates" all forces that will take effect on the driver. LfS only simulates (like in reality) the forces that can be felt on the steering wheel.

[Bob Smith]

I think everyone will agree that when you're understeering, your front wheels are not rotating at the rate which the road is passing under you...
If you're talking about RWD cars, then the front wheels aren't powered, and assuming you're not braking, won't the slip ratio of the front wheels be zero? In other words they will be rotating at the rate at which the road is passing under them.

[atledreier]

Then you wouldn't be understeering, Bob...

[Bob Smith]

Understeer is when the slip angle (not ratio) of the wheels exceeds the optimum of the front tyres (and the rear tyres have yet to lose traction).

[atledreier]

So it is! My bad, I should start to read posts properly before I open my virtual mouth. I keep getting feet in it! ;)

[BWX232]

Yeah I mean even if you are in an under-steer situation, the front wheels in a RWD car are still rotating, they are just turning (rotating) while at the same time sliding laterally.

They still will put pressure on the steering wheel, but it seems like since they are sliding laterally compared to the forward motion of the car, that the pressure (torque) they put on the steering column will be less than if they were not sliding laterally.


Also something else to think about in a front drive car is torque steer.. If the LFS physics engine/FF code is actually working exactly right, it seems that torque steer would surface quite a bit in a FWD car while accelerating out a turn.. I do feel something happening that feels like torque steer, but it doesn't seem to be completely accurate.

Torque steer in a FWD car will be different when a car has a LSD compared to car that uses an open diff. - but I wonder how accurate LFS is in that regard?

[Bob Smith]

I thought torque steer was caused by unequal length drive shafts? And that modern cars have greatly reduced this affect (by use of counterweights and stuff I think).

[Woz]

Simply because the only time the steering wheel really tells you anything is when the fronts have no grip and it goes light. Everything else that you need to know when driving comes from the feeling in your arse. You don't drive according to the feeling in your hands, if you did you'd always react too late.

Basically, the forces acting on a steering wheel in real life are not the most important ones, and therefore it doesn't make sense to use the only tool we have to translate feeling for that purpose.

Anyway, next time I fire up LFS I'm going to play with the settings. It's not bad by any means, but there are some things about it that don't seem quite right.

You are 100% wrong on what your hands can tell you because the front wheels can tell you about the state of the rear along with the loading of the front wheels etc

Try this in a RWD car IRL... In a safe place. Induce oversteer and then watch the steering wheel spin as the front wheels try and track the direction the front of the car is going in. Or if you dont feel safe doing this watch an in car vid of someone drifting

Yes the most important feeling while driving come from your body via G force but, and this is a HUGE BUT, it is not possible to translate these G force feeling to a FF device which has a single axis that is not in line with any of the axis you will feel g force in. So the only way to create these is to map those axis to the FF which just results in noise that will mask the subtle feelings the FF is trying to tell you. Trust the FF that is there and just learn to listen to it a little more and not fight it.

[ColeusRattus]

Yes the most important feeling while driving come from your body via G force but, and this is a HUGE BUT, it is not possible to translate these G force feeling to a FF device which has a single axis that is not in line with any of the axis you will feel g force in. So the only way to create these is to map those axis to the FF which just results in noise that will mask the subtle feelings the FF is trying to tell you. Trust the FF that is there and just learn to listen to it a little more and not fight it.

Actually I read an article about japanese scienists who invented a headphone wich stimulated the sense of balance eletronically. With this technology you could either simulate acceleration forces or remote controll humans (roughly... just make them think, the worlds flipping to the right, and they will go that way to compensate... for a similar effect, try turning yourself very fast for two minutes ;) ) Anyways, all kinds of games wold could use this: Racing games, flight sims, and heck, even the ride-preview in Rollercoaster Tycoon :D
Thing is, I can't find the article anymore, but it can't be older than a week.

[Woz]

Actually I read an article about japanese scienists who invented a headphone wich stimulated the sense of balance eletronically. With this technology you could either simulate acceleration forces or remote controll humans (roughly... just make them think, the worlds flipping to the right, and they will go that way to compensate... for a similar effect, try turning yourself very fast for two minutes ;) ) Anyways, all kinds of games wold could use this: Racing games, flight sims, and heck, even the ride-preview in Rollercoaster Tycoon :D
Thing is, I can't find the article anymore, but it can't be older than a week.

This would work on the fact that your ear is the centre of your balance information and this is the fact that motion platforms use to trick you into feeling G etc. Without input from other senses or context it is actually impossible for your body to tell the difference between lying down and going through 1G acceleration because they are both the same.

Not sure how the headphones would work though because they would need to effect your inner ear. Also any lag between visuals and the effect of the headphones would make you vomit very quickly.

[tristancliffe]

I thought torque steer was caused by unequal length drive shafts? And that modern cars have greatly reduced this affect (by use of counterweights and stuff I think).

Yup, correct. And modern FWD cars go to greater lengths (no pun intended) to ensure that the affective length of the driveshafts are the same. But balance weights, counterweights are other such 'stuff' is also widely used.

Therefore an LSD mades little or difference to torquesteer on a car. It either suffers from it or it doesn't.

[tailing]

All this talk made me look into things a bit more about adjusting the 'damper' and 'spring' forces as I don't believe it is right to recommend they should be set to zero. I came across this (http://www.wingmanteam.com/discus/messages/4/2875.html?1095058169), apparently tom writes the drivers for the logitech wheels.

I'd quote some of the text but can't seem to paste into the reply window.
Essentially what he says is that the defaults (overall force 100%, damper 100% & spring 100%) will give you what is intended by the programmer. I'd like to see what the devs say about this, from memory and what woz said the devs have said that 0% is best for spring and damper. It would be nice if one of them could clarify this for us all.

btw, I also agree with bob that it shouldn't be necessary to adjust ffb for different cars.

[BWX232]

btw, I also agree with bob that it shouldn't be necessary to adjust ffb for different cars.


Whether is should be or not is debatable.... whether is actually is necessary or not is another question. Just like the volume of the engines of the cars are on a scale too large.. (some too loud, some too soft compared to all the other sounds, making you constantly adjust it in-game for the sake of "realism")- so is the scale of the difference of the FF between the cars.

If you want good feel "around the center" for some of the lower power - lower grip cars, you need to crank the FF up a lot in game compared to the settings you would use for the GT cars- especially with a DFP.

The FF in LFS is not perfect enough to just leave it the same for all cars.. It has a lot of little bugs that make it necessary to adjust it I think. Oscillation around the center is one reason- if the FF was completely accurate, it would not do that.. that oscillation is caused by lag in the FF or something. That causes you to have to adjust the FF down for the higher grip cars unless you want a lot of oscillation.. If you adjust the FF down enough to avoid that oscillation if the cars with the strongest FF, the cars with weakest FF have no feel to the FF at all around the center.. in a real car, no matter how much grip it has, you still have a lot more feel than that coming through the steering wheel.

[AndroidXP]

what about spring effect strenght and damper effect strenght , do they have any effect on LFS?I don't know what they do but they should be set to zero whatever they do. Because LFS will handle the forces by simply sending the steering axis torques straight to your wheel.

Anything the wheel software would add, due to incorrect (non-zero) settings, would simply interfere with those LFS forces and be wrong, because the wheel software does not know what your car is doing.
...
OK... so... maybe i'm wrong to say that the spring strength should be zero. It seems strange - i can't understand what it can really mean. The thing is, i've always assumed that "Spring Strength" was related to an auto-centering spring.

But then, "enable centering spring" is switched off, so there shouldn't be a centering spring, so what "Spring Strength" means, i don't know.


Anyway here's a simple test to check for "correctness" of your wheel driver settings :

- Start LFS and sit on the track in any car
- Press the "<" key to set the force right down to zero
- Now, your wheel should be loose - no force, stays where you put it


LFS sends no forces when the force is zero, so that's why the wheel should be loose. If it has any centering forces with force set to zero, then that force will be interfering with the FF provided by LFS.

If the wheel is loose when LFS force is set to zero, then that should be ok, anything else will be down to user preference.
...
No, spring strength and auto-centering spring are absolutely not related.

Auto centering ( the bottom slider in Logitech driver adjustment panel ) is a driver specific force, centering the wheel, returning the wheel to its center position from whatever position it is. It is not game/engine dependent, as it is a force imposed by the (Logitech) drivers to whatever game/engine. Being completely unrealistic, no such force exist in a real life car, it should absolutely be turned off.

Spring strenght ( the second from top slider in Logitech driver adjustment panel ) is indeed fully engine dependent. I'm not a programmer to know exactly what kind of forces it handle ( see above post(s) ), but Scawen should know best if there are such forces in LFS. For a fact, it is known for example: the Papyrus engine ( GPL/NR ) does not use/generate spring forces and Spring strenght should be set to 0%. The ISI engine (EA F1 series/GTR ) on the contrary, uses/generate Spring forces and the slider should be carefully adjusted, or better kept at 100% not to disturb any specific in-game FF adjustment.

A side note about Centering spring: it was reported several times during past years that disabling it completely can with some Logitech wheel lead to some oscillations and other negative effect. It was recommended to keep it enabled ( checked ) but adjusted to 0%...somewhat illogical but worth a try, good results were always reported.

Snippnets of a conversation found in this thread (http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=215790).

[colcob]

Just to try and clarify a couple of things, firstly understeer is when the slip angle of the front tyres is greater than the slip angle of the rear tyres. Doesnt matter if its above optimum or not.

Secondly, FF systems work in a number of different ways. You can either send 'effects' to the wheel via directX, ie preset patterns of forces like a wave or ramp, which the wheel software interprets and sends to the wheel, or you can send a 'constant force'.
The way that the effects feel on your wheel will be determined by your 'spring strength' and 'damper strength' in the control panel. For example, directX might send a bounce effect of given magnitude, then your wheel driver software will modify the actual spring force and damping amount based on your control panel settings.

However, if the software isnt sending 'effects' but rather is sending a constant force, then that force will not be modified by the spring and damper settings in the control panel, it just gets sent as is.

Thats why for sims that use constant force variation like GPL and LFS, the spring and damper setting in the control panel are not relevant. As I understand it, ISI sims and most arcade racers do use the spring and damper effects, so they will be effected by those settings.

[BWX232]

Thats why for sims that use constant force variation like GPL and LFS, the spring and damper setting in the control panel are not relevant.

They make a difference when adjusting them though- especially the spring force.. The damper to a lesser affect, but the spring really makes a big difference, you can "tune" the FF with it.. when you adjust it in relation to the overall force. It helps with the oscillation and feel around the center a great deal- especially with a DFP using high rotation (same as car in game)...

Although it is a driver level adjustment, I think it tunes the output of the FF affects.. not necessarily giving you a "false" or "canned" affect either. I think in LFS, when adjusting the damper in the Logi. CP, that is introducing a canned affect. That is just the way it feels to me after testing for countless hours, not based on any hard evidence found in the code.

[AndroidXP]

It is indeed a canned effect, a simple constant centering force, where the force is set by your spring strength. This force is added to the forces created by LFS, so it does alter them quite considerably. If you have a LFS generated force to the right, and you are currently steering left (from the wheel center), the centering spring will add to that force and make it stronger. On the contrary, if you steer to the right, the centering spring will counteract the intended force generated by LFS and make it weaker. So overall, depending on your current steering, it will alter the forces of LFS in a completely unrealistic way with a force that doesn't exist in real life.

Any centering forces in RL are generated by the front wheels alone and these forces are already in LFS with varying degrees of strength, depending on your setup.

The damper value shouldn't do anything, as it would only affect "spring" forces which aren't generated by LFS anyways.


Also try what Scawen said in the post quoted above. Set your ingame force to 0% - if your wheel generates any forces now your wheel alters the one generated and inteded by LFS. It's like you added a device to your real car that always tries to center the steering wheel no matter what.

[Bob Smith]

Just to try and clarify a couple of things, firstly understeer is when the slip angle of the front tyres is greater than the slip angle of the rear tyres. Doesnt matter if its above optimum or not.

OK my bad. :)

[BWX232]

It is indeed a canned effect, a simple constant centering force, where the force is set by your spring strength. This force is added to the forces created by LFS, so it does alter them quite considerably.


Nope it isn't. I am not talking about the centering spring. Do you have a Logitech DFP? EDIT- I ask because if you do you could run some very scientific tests to see what the spring does, and what it does not do. The centering spring should always be unchecked, that is true.

[AndroidXP]

Oh well, ok then. I rest my case :)

I have an MS FF wheel and that ignores any settings regarding centering spring and effect strength as soon as LFS runs. And if your DFP has a different behaviour on those spring settings I'd blame it on a faulty/buggy driver because that spring setting shouldn't touch the forces generated by LFS.

I thought about getting a DFP but I always hear that the pedals are crap and that the FF is better on the Sidewinder. Also the drivers seem to always interfere with the FF so I dunno :shrug:. But then again... 900° and a myriad of buttons... arrggh decisions.

[atledreier]

I did some tests today, in my real car.

It was wet, and I do have a fwd. Fairly wide, sticky tires. And all tests are done by feel. That means I did not actually measure any forces on the wheel. But I did concentrate on the forces, trying to exclude my seat-of-the-pants input.

Anyways:

Going straight, I had the normal centering forces, as well as doing a constant radius turn. The force required to keep the turn was increasing slightly as the radius got smaller.
Accelerating, I got a little bit of torque steer, and violent bucking if I got a little wheelspin. If I had a lot of wheelspin, the wheel went very light, and I lost all steering. These are all effects easily seen in LFS.

going straight, pressing the clutch so I was coasting, and the turning the wheel a fair amount resulted in the wheel getting harder and harder to turn, as per the constant radius turn, but at the point where wheelslip started to occur, the force stayed constant. However much more the wheel was turned, the force needed was constant.
During fwd power-on understeer, I got a fair bit of feedback as long as only the inner wheel was slipping (open diff), but once both wheels were slipping I had a very light wheel.

The surprising thing here is the fact that in a wheel-slip situation, the wheel-force was constant. In the beginning I thought the wheel got lighter, but then I started thinking about actual forces vs expected forces. I think the term 'the wheel goes light' is not the actualt fact, but the fact that the force needed increases up to a point, and then stays constant when you expect it to keep increasing.

Disclaimer: It could also be the wet surface, or my power-steering could mask out the effects, but I'm pretty certain my observations are correct under the prevailing conditions.

I'll get the flamesuit ready now, I think.

[BWX232]

Oh well, ok then. I rest my case

I have an MS FF wheel and that ignores any settings regarding centering spring and effect strength as soon as LFS runs. And if your DFP has a different behaviour on those spring settings I'd blame it on a faulty/buggy driver because that spring setting shouldn't touch the forces generated by LFS.

I thought about getting a DFP but I always hear that the pedals are crap and that the FF is better on the Sidewinder. Also the drivers seem to always interfere with the FF so I dunno But then again... 900° and a myriad of buttons... arrggh decisions.
..

[BWX232]

Well since this forum LOCKS IE6 if I quote or insert a link or anything. I will quote then write the message.. :pillepall

No the driver is not buggy at all...

The guy who writes the drivers explains exactly why the spring and damper forces are there, it has to do with how game devs used to write code for FF and how different manufacturers FF wheels interpret those signals.


The spring setting should and does affect the forces generated by LFS...


Yeah the older pedals are crap, at least some of them. They have a significant probability of being defective- it is a design flaw. The new Rev. B00 has metal POTS and for me they work flawlessly. I can compare them to my Momo force pedals which have the touchy plastic POTS.. The new DFP pedals work perfect. Smooth as they could possibly be.

Get the DFP, it is far superior to your MS Wheel in many ways. The place where you see if it is a rev B00 or later is on the inside of the box though, on the plastic bad that holds the manual.

[BWX232]

http://www.wingmanteam.com/discus/messages/4/3425.html?1120866791


I hope you appreciate the info- I had to make this post 6 times.. WTH! this forum is screwed up.


DEVS please test this forum with IE6!!!!
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=179

It is broken.

[AndroidXP]

...You just showed that LFS does it right. No flamesuit needed :thumb:

[steve]

You just showed that LFS does it right. No flamesuit needed :thumb:

But it is not simulating 1 important 'feeling'

[atledreier]

Which is?

It's simulating the forces acting through the steeering column, and it does that pretty accurately, it seems.

[steve]

The feeling when the wheel go's light from massive understeer.

[atledreier]

Did you even read my post?

[tristancliffe]

It doesn't. Either in real life or in LFS.

[steve]

It doesn't. Either in real life or in LFS.

LOL is that right? I cant believe some people, wow. Im just gonna assume none of you have driven a real car hard in your life.

[tristancliffe]

Yes. Lots. Today in fact. My wheel goes a bit light as I start to understeer, a bit more light if I understeer more, then stays about constant after that, until the wheel starts juddering cos the road wheels are hopping along the road surface rather than rolling.

[steve]

I thought you just said the wheel doesnt go light? make up your mind

[tristancliffe]

Of course it goes light, and that's been said in real life. But you said

"The feeling when the wheel go's light from massive understeer", and this DOES NOT HAPPEN.

LFS gets this right.

[steve]

Now im confused :S

Of course that doesnt happen in LFS, but it should cause it happens in a REAL car.

[tristancliffe]

No no no

LFS models the steering going light at moderate levels of understeer, as explained in posts (not just mine) above. This is correct and realistic.

It does not model the steering going REALLY light at EXTREME understeer, because this DOES NOT happen in a real car. If anything, at EXTREME levels of understeer, when so much lock has been wound on to make the tyres skip rather than rotate, the wheel forces tend to go up. The steering going really light IS NOT modelled in LFS, and it is REALISTIC because of it.

Apart from the bucking wheel when the wheels skip, LFS get's it pretty right.

No offence, but I think you need to go for a drive in a decent car, preferably without power steering (although difficult as all cars have it now new, which just goes to show that modern people are generally a bit girly. Thats why they want/demand Traction Control :P). I do this on an almost daily basis, and part of my job at work is to assess handling. They might not be the most modern cars, but they run on Radials, are either FWD or RWD, handle well, and use the same laws of physics.

[atledreier]

And like I said, our brains expect the forces to increase. When they don't, it's interpreted as less force. We're easily fooled by our own expectations.

[durbster]

Actually there is another factor in this that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet, and that's the road itself. My own experience of the steering going light when understeering is when there has been something on the road that causes a serious loss of grip, like ice or spilt diesel. In those situations, you get understeer and the resistance through the steering wheel is virtually zero. This isn't modelled in LFS because low grip surfaces aren't modelled in LFS, so I was probably wrong to use this as my own experience.

The steering going light due to excessive speed is a different matter, and I think this is where the confusion has crept in.

I think you need to go for a drive in a decent car, preferably without power steering (although difficult as all cars have it now new, which just goes to show that modern people are generally a bit girly.
Well, that wouldn't really be much use since the real equivalents of all the cars in LFS (excluding the MRT?) would almost certainly have power steering. Girly? No, I'd say it's more to do with the fact that engineers can do a lot more to improve the feel of a car with power steering than without it.

[tristancliffe]

Actually, one of the main reasons they fit PAS to most hatchbacks/shopping trolleys is because the manufacturers fit wheels and tyres that are far too big for general city driving, because grip sells.

Saying 'Our car is shit slow round a track, but at least you can park it, and you save £200 in the process' isn't as good as saying 'our car has loads of grip, despite Mrs Granny never ever using 10% of it'.

Of course, a slightly more aggressive wheel setup can also be used, with faster racks, more caster, wider wheels/tyres etc etc. But there is no NEED really, and if they engineered the cars without it only about 4 people would ever notice the difference on a day to day basic.

[BWX232]

Actually my old Prelude had torque sensitive power steering- It felt like NO power steering until you really needed it, like in a parking lot. I also had 2 other cars w/o Power steering, one a RWD and one FWD... They were both great handling cars, and a blast to drive- but a pain in the A.. errr Arms.. in the parking lots.

At the that time I was benching 250LBS though, so it wasn't too much work. It felt like I was ripping to wheel off the car all the time though, similar to what the DFP feels like in LFS without any spring adjustment set.

[BWX232]

Actually
Actually
Actually

LOL.....

[tristancliffe]

Actually, it's a very normal way to start a sentence :P

[steve]

No offence, but I think you need to go for a drive in a decent car, preferably without power steering

I actually race cars all the time and im talking from experiance, and none have power steering, when I understeer, steering goes light, and sometimes hops. LFS does not model this at all, simple as that.

[tristancliffe]

If you are racing and it sometimes hops, try steering less. One of the best ways to cure understeer (as I'm sure you know) is to allow the front wheels the slip angle they want (by reducing lock), letting them bite, and considering having another go at the corner (if you need to).

[durbster]

Saying 'Our car is shit slow round a track, but at least you can park it, and you save £200 in the process'...
What are you on about? Who would buy a car that will be awful to drive and look at on the road but might go a couple of tenths quicker if they ever happened to take it to a track?

Power steering is simply about making the wheel easier to turn. Non-PAS cars are a pain in the arse to park, often have less feel and are more difficult to control.

Actually :D

Edit: Oops, this is rather OT now...

[tailing]

Whether is should be or not is debatable.... whether is actually is necessary or not is another question. Just like the volume of the engines of the cars are on a scale too large.. (some too loud, some too soft compared to all the other sounds, making you constantly adjust it in-game for the sake of "realism")- so is the scale of the difference of the FF between the cars.

Imo it shouldn't be necessary and for me it isn't necessary. I have no problems whatsoever with oscillation in any car and I never change any of my ffb settings ever. Not in the CP or in LFS (well I did slightly adjust strength in LFS when S2 came out :)) Imo oscillation is a sign you have the ffb set too strong.
Anyway it is pretty wheel specific it seems and down to personal preference but seeing as I have no problems doing so, not adjusting settings for cars gives me a nice feel for the difference in different cars. Jump from the XR GT or something similar into a GTR and I can feel the difference of the wide slicks on the front and the extra resistance they cause in the steering. Jump into the LX4 and it's all a lot looser, as I figure it's supposed to be (could be wrong here though).

Anyway, I'm pretty satisfied now that as I thought, the spring and damper settings are integral to the ffb supplied by a Logitech wheel and do not add any forces not generated by the game. They simply provide a means to balance the two main forces the wheel generates according to personal preference.
As an aside, my theory is that setting both spring and damper to 0% does little to change the nature of the ffb in LFS except to lower the overall strength of these forces. I figure this is why people who do so also tend to use quite high overall force in the CP and within LFS as they're simply compensating the lack of ffb strength overall.

btw, thanks AndroidXP for posting those comments from Scawen.

[tailing]

It is indeed a canned effect, a simple constant centering force, where the force is set by your spring strength. This force is added to the forces created by LFS, so it does alter them quite considerably. If you have a LFS generated force to the right, and you are currently steering left (from the wheel center), the centering spring will add to that force and make it stronger. On the contrary, if you steer to the right, the centering spring will counteract the intended force generated by LFS and make it weaker. So overall, depending on your current steering, it will alter the forces of LFS in a completely unrealistic way with a force that doesn't exist in real life.

Any centering forces in RL are generated by the front wheels alone and these forces are already in LFS with varying degrees of strength, depending on your setup.

The damper value shouldn't do anything, as it would only affect "spring" forces which aren't generated by LFS anyways.


Also try what Scawen said in the post quoted above. Set your ingame force to 0% - if your wheel generates any forces now your wheel alters the one generated and inteded by LFS. It's like you added a device to your real car that always tries to center the steering wheel no matter what.

As you don't have a Logitech wheel it seems you may be getting 'Spring' and 'Centering Spring' mixed up a bit. They bear no relation to one another, most people in this thread refering to their spring settings are not talking about the centering spring.

[Bob Smith]

I don't suffer from any oscillations problems. High FFB is certainly one cause, but you need to remember FFB is a driving aid, you shouldn't be fighting it to turn the wheel.

On my old wheel (Thrustmaster F1) it used to oscilate like crazy, then I updated the drivers and it went away (better than my Momo which replaced it). However S2 seems to have removed the problem completely, I can let go of the wheel down the straights now without fear.

So it's certainly not LFS that's to blame.

[tristancliffe]

What are you on about? Who would buy a car that will be awful to drive and look at on the road but might go a couple of tenths quicker if they ever happened to take it to a track?

Power steering is simply about making the wheel easier to turn. Non-PAS cars are a pain in the arse to park, often have less feel and are more difficult to control.

Actually :D

Edit: Oops, this is rather OT now...

Take a good, engineering view at both a car designed to run without PAS, and one designed to run with, preferably of a similar age, and you'll notice the car with PAS has more castor, more offset on the wheels, a faster rack etc. Because the steering wheel is easier to turn they make the steering geometry much more 'aggressive'.

Next test. Take a car with and one without (each designed originally to have it or not), disconnect the power steering stuff, and you'll find the one that is designed not to need PAS will be easier to turn.

[durbster]

On my old wheel (Thrustmaster F1) it used to oscilate like crazy, then I updated the drivers and it went away

Blimey, I've not updated my wheel drivers in years! :)

[durbster]

Take a car with and one without (each designed originally to have it or not), disconnect the power steering stuff, and you'll find the one that is designed not to need PAS will be easier to turn.

I'm not sure what your point is. If the car has a different steering system, then the setup should be tweaked to make the most of that, obviously. Similarly, if it had a different braking system, then you would also tweak the setup to get the best out that.

In fact you could say that about any feature of the handling. To get optimum handling, you adjust a car to what it has not what it has not.

Anyway, to get back to the original point (whenever that was), power assisted cars make better race cars because they are easier to control, which is why most, if not all, of the cars in LFS would have PAS.

[BWX232]

Imo it shouldn't be necessary and for me it isn't necessary. I have no problems whatsoever with oscillation in any car and I never change any of my ffb settings ever.

What are your settings then?








As an aside, my theory is that setting both spring and damper to 0% does little to change the nature of the ffb in LFS except to lower the overall strength of these forces.

It does more than just lessen the overall strength. It does more than raise overall strength when turning the spring setting up too.
You can tune the forces with it, not just raise or lower the overall strength.

[tailing]

I probably didn't word things very well and the thought process wasn't quite right. The point I was making is setting both spring and damper to 0% is removing these forces from play (whether they are completely removed is a little unclear). It will change the balance of things in regards to the forces that do remain but seems to largely result in people having to compensate and ramp up the overall strength.
If this is how you like it then there's nothing wrong with that from my pov.

My settings on my Momo Racing are basically the defaults apart from the centering spring fix. In LFS I have strength at 45%. It seems that most don't like these settings, maybe it's just what I'm used to but I feel I get all the feedback I need.

btw with regards to oscillation, I maybe should test it a bit as I virtually never drive without at least one hand on the wheel. So it is possible I do still get some oscillation but nothing that simply resting my hand on the wheel won't stop.

[BWX232]

Yeah I have a momo and a DFP, the DFP responds quite a bit different due to it's higher rotation and I think it has stronger motors too. The higher rotation is the biggest difference though for sure.

After reading one of the post here I tried something for the heck of it..
I went on SO City- with the fox.. A slightly tuned Race1 set.


Set all the SAME in the DFP CP.. overall - damper- spring to 70.. Then went in game and set it to 70.. (with proper rotation or 450 set in DFP CP and in game)

Man.. very very realistic, you can catch slides because the FF is so strong, it ramps up just perfectly.. I also tries 100/100/100 in DFP CP and 100 in game.. Holy crap! Very strong but very realistic feeling too! You steer with pressure more than rotation of the wheel- like in RL. It oscillates, but so fast that it just kind of follows the track of the car. You really need to keep your hands on the wheel though, but in a real car I imagine you would too- especially driving like that..

Probably way to extreme for a momo- But it is something to experiment with - with a DFP.

[tpa]

yea, that oscillating is really weird. When I set all forces to max in windows as well as in LFS, the wheel oscillates heavily, even when standing still in the pits :pillepall
On a momo racing that is...

[inCogNito]

do you have wheel compensation on 1.0?

this should reduce oscillating.

[-wes-]

RBR has the light weel on understear effect,if you want to feel it for your self.

Oh yes 'wheel turn compensation' !!
Ok if you dont know what it does;

It will match your pc weels movments with the cars in game stearing weel when set to 1.0
This is a good thing btw, as it makes sense to match the movements it also tends to make the cars less twitchy around the centre.

I not sure that it works correctly on all weels, but its fine for dfp owners.

Set your dfp to 900 deg in the cp, now when you drive a car with less lock than your dfp. The movments will still match but your pc weel won't stop rotating when you reach the cars lock limit you also lose ffb after the limit.

If you have to turn the weel so much that you pass the cars lock limit your weren't going to save it anyway.

Set all your sets to max lock.
Banger racing in a uf with max lock is hard work :razz: