sequential gearboxes and footwork?

[ultrataco]

I guess this isn't really a LFS-specific question, but oh well. When using race cars with a sequential gearbox (in LFS and real life), are you supposed to rev-match when down-shifting and lift off when up-shifting? I know some street cars (i.e. F430) do it automatically, but what about race cars like F3000 or (some) GT cars?

[Forbin]

You don't necessarily have to cut or blip manually, but you probably should. Alternatively, you can use the clutch.

Flat-shifting a dog-engagement sequential isn't as bad as flatshifting a syncromesh, but it's still pretty hard on it.

[JeffR]

Some race cars use a computer to control throttle and clutch (if needed) during shifts. One example is an XTRAC shifter. Formula 1 race cars use a computerized sequential no lift shifter. In 2002 the Formula 1 trannies were fully automatic, both upshifts and downshifts. I don't know what percentage of these computerized shifters require blips on downshifts.

Computerized sequential shifter (turn down sound, rear end is loud):
http://www.supercarchallenge.nl/video/Assen-bmwSTW.wmv

What appears to be a non-computerized sequential shifter (driver is lifting and blipping):
tsunsx.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/real/tsunsx.wmv)

[obsolum]

Some race cars use a computer to control throttle and clutch (if needed) during shifts. One example is an XTRAC shifter. Formula 1 race cars use a computerized sequential no lift shifter. In 2002 the Formula 1 trannies were fully automatic, both upshifts and downshifts. I don't know what percentage of these computerized shifters require blips on downshifts.

Computerized sequential shifter (turn down sound, rear end is loud):
http://www.supercarchallenge.nl/video/Assen-bmwSTW.wmv

What appears to be a non-computerized sequential shifter (driver is lifting and blipping):
tsunsx.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/real/tsunsx.wmv)
Man, the gear whine in that first vid is insane :x Also, is that BMW in another car class than everybody else? He catches and passes all the other drivers with such great ease you can hardly call it a race.

[Not Sure]

None of the LFS cars has auto-blip, so you have to do it manually. Heel-toe is not required, but i would like to know if real life racers do it. Or do they just press gas and brake simultaneously without clutch?

[obsolum]

None of the LFS cars has auto-blip, so you have to do it manually. Heel-toe is not required, but i would like to know if real life racers do it. Or do they just press gas and brake simultaneously without clutch?
Heel & toe is what you do if you have to use the clutch, so yeah, real life race drivers do it if the car requires it. In the Tsunsx vid in Jeffr's post the car doesn't seem to have a clutch, so in that case there is no point in heel & toe'ing; you can just use your left foot to brake while blipping the throttle with your right.

There's plenty of videos on Youtube of real racedrivers heel & toe'ing, just do a search. It'll become much clearer.

[DragonCommando]

Real race car drivers sometimes heel-toe, watch austrailian V8 supercars on youtube, they have alot of foot cam videos of it. About 4 out of 5 will show heel-toe footwork. And just about every other race car foot cam video on youtube will as well. I looked at alot of these videos when I was learning the footwork.

However, V8 supercars also have ignition cut for upshifting, its done with a microswitch on the shifter that allows the driver to cut ignition while he changes gears with the H-pattern shifter. So they generaly don't have to lift while changing up. Some drivers don't use the clutch at all and brake with thier left foot, but I have only seen this in a video once.

In a sequential box there isn't a neutral state between gears, it just switches to the next as it dissengages the last. Heel-toe on a sequential requires you to have the clutch in while you blip, if you do. And there is no way to double clutch on a sequential.

Old F1 in the 60's had H-pattern gearboxes and they also used heel-toe back then.


As far as rev-matching and lifting off on a sequential.

Generaly, if the car doesn't do it for you, it's ok to do it for the car. I prefer doing it myself because it gives me the control of when and if I do it. Sometimes it can be useful to not rev-match, and if you know the car well enough you don't need to use the clutch all the time.

It's all about knowing the car and what you need to do and when. I don't rev match in the FBM, because it isn't critical to do so, and in the BF1 most of the time you realy dont have time unless you have a bionic foot. But in the XRR it can help keep the car balanced if you are running lower downforce settings.

[JeffR]

Also, is that BMW in another car class than everybody else?That video was of a multi-class event. There was some issue that prevented the BMW from qualifying, so it started at the back of the field, with the lower class cars. That's why it passes so many cars at the start.

[Not Sure]

Heel & toe is what you do if you have to use the clutch, so yeah, real life race drivers do it if the car requires it. In the Tsunsx vid in Jeffr's post the car doesn't seem to have a clutch, so in that case there is no point in heel & toe'ing; you can just use your left foot to brake while blipping the throttle with your right.

There's plenty of videos on Youtube of real racedrivers heel & toe'ing, just do a search. It'll become much clearer.

I know about heel & toe (and always use it in LFS) and it's importance with synchronized gears.

It is still unclear to me how one should downshift with a dogbox, which method causes least stress to the drivetrain, and which upsets the car the least.

As there is no neutral between the gears, blipping does not work the same way as in "normal" gears. Pressing the gas pedal while braking increases the braking distance, right? Not blipping will cause the driving wheels to break traction, unless one shifts down at the right time.

[bunder9999]

Pressing the gas pedal while braking increases the braking distance, right?

if it doesn't also burn out the clutch... depending on your braking and drivetrain setup, it could also destabilize the car. (think: trying to burn out and the back end slides out instead of the car going forward) :shrug:

[Forbin]

For minimum stress on the transmissioin, the idea is to neutralize the input force from the transmission, perhaps with a slightly positive force in the direction the transmission wants to speed up/slow down. This means you use some very small amount of throttle when downshifting and cut a lot when upshifting.

[ultrataco]

ok, thanks for the replies. The reason I asked was I was playing GTR Evolution :x :hide: and I was driving the F3000 against the ai in a pre-quali practice session and I was doing pretty bad (2-3 seconds off) partly because I could not shift down to second without the rear end locking up a bit and causing oversteer:schwitz:. I had to take second gear corners in third gear, which seemed to hurt my exit speed. I don't recall ever having that problem in LFS (though LFS has much better feeling of grip, especially under braking.:nod:)

[tiagolapa]

GTR evolution auto blips and there is no way to remove that option in player files :(

[deggis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAWgGFyB9pE

Watch closely at 1:03 and 2:29.

[bunder9999]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAWgGFyB9pE

Watch closely at 1:03 and 2:29.

he's not even H+T'ing it... it looks like the gas pedal is connected to the clutch pedal... :shrug:

[RS1T]

As my pedals dont have a clutch, i use autoclutch, and i always blip the throttle when shifting, as if i dont the clutch burns out over time

[S14 DRIFT]

GTR evolution auto blips and there is no way to remove that option in player files :(

I found that games just best played in sequential. I try it in H pattern and it's just not feeling right for some reason. :shrug:

[tinvek]

Computerized sequential shifter (turn down sound, rear end is loud):
http://www.supercarchallenge.nl/video/Assen-bmwSTW.wmv




forget about sounding like a dentist's drill that sounded like it was inside a tooth being drilled by a dentist's drill :ambulance:ambulance:ambulance


alos he doesn't really seem to grasp the idea of the yellow flags at the start of the second lap does he ?

[ultrataco]

he's not even H+T'ing it... it looks like the gas pedal is connected to the clutch pedal... :shrug:

that's what I was thinking :scratchch

I found that games just best played in sequential. I try it in H pattern and it's just not feeling right for some reason. :shrug:

That may be because even if you turn off auto clutch, you don't really need it. All the cars (even the few with an h-box) shift like they have a sequential gearbox (except you can skip gears if you have an h-shifter like the g25). If the car has an h-box, I use the clutch just for fun.:shrug:

[JeffR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAWgGFyB9pE&fmt=18
Watch closely at 1:03 and 2:29.An example of a real world auto-blip. It appears to be activated by depressing the clutch pedal (one way linkage from clutch to throttle), but there are also computerized auto-blip systems. I don't know if the computerized ones would move the throttle pedal. Perhaps computerized auto-blip wasn't allowed or wanted for this particular race car, so they made a mechanical "macro" driven off the clutch to implement blip without heel and toe.

[DragonCommando]

I realy think thats just the sissy's way out.
That driver could just as easily press the pedal himself.

[skstibi]

I find myself doing the heel-toe routine in the XRR, FBM, FOX, and the FO8 when I am downshifting into second or first.
I have the biggest problem with the XRR, it just does not like to go into those low gears without causing the rear wheels to slow down way too much.

The only experience I have had shifting a sequential gearbox without a clutch is on a motorcycle when that clutch lever gets snapped clean off. Downshifting without the clutch there is really not something I liked but up-shifting was fine.

[deggis]

I realy think thats just the sissy's way out.
That driver could just as easily press the pedal himself.
With that logic, F1 cars would still have H-gate gearboxes. Easier, in theory faster too... and I think it's stupid. With left-foot braking becoming apparently quite common in GT cars too, and if these kind of systems are future then they might as well as allow them to use semi-auto paddle shifting (if it wasn't for cost reasons). :shrug:

[Bandit77]

this wendlinger video shows us one thing: creating clutch-macros for LFS isn't really cheating :D.

for a moment I was thinking he had 4 pedals: clutch, accel1, brake, accel2 :D... and a hand-clutch.

How would he launch with such a mechanic "macro" setup?