Time for LFS to grow some teeth.

[Gimpster]

I know this is not the frist thread on the subject but the point keeps getting lost. Damage was added to S2 to reduce the ammount of wall riding and wreching we see while racing. To some degree it worked. But we have grown use to the damage system and I feel its time for bark to gain some teeth.

Crashing needs to become painful to the point where it becomes feared. Whether that means no warping to the pits, no restarting, no rejoing a race in progress, reduced repair ability in the pits, etc. The only way people will start to drive within their abilities and not constantly pushing the very edge is to make exceeding that edge have potentialy hard penalties. People right now are always trying to attack every corner, braking zone, passing oppertunity etc, with no room for error. This is what leads to most of the wrecks and restart requests.

So until the devs can make it more painful its up to us to do so and we have few tools to accomplish this with. The only way I can see to address this now is to setup some servers in the comunity that do not allow restarts, mid race joinging and are runnng long races. Its either that or we will have to just deal with the restarts and the first corner = win mentality that exists in almost all short races.

[EeekiE]

I was just thinking this myself.

While comparing real world track days to this game. The difference is you really don't want to damage your car :razz:. If the same caution could be put into people in the game, it would be one step closer to a true sim.

[mrbogeyman]

there is another thread dealing with the restarts side of things in the improvements section.

but i think you are right about the limiting of the ammount of damage a car can take, and how much can be repaired.

however, i am sure you remember the devs saying that this damage model is very basic and was soley implemented to eliminate wall riding my allowing suspension damage.

therefore, i am pretty sure that the type of damage you are requesting will be implemented along the way.

[tristancliffe]

Race weekends. For some cars you only get one per weekend, others you get two (say the Formula cars and the GTR cars). If you crash you might be able to repair it, but you might miss a session. Some stuff irrepairable in the weekend, so you're out until a restart weekend vote.

Same with changing setups - no nipping into the pits in qually to change your gear ratio's or whatnot, make it take time.

Would be brilliant. And if server configurable (within limits), then the 'fun' races won't be compromised too much.

I bet Scawen's already thought of it though...

[Vendetta]

its pretty hard to put fear into a video game. :D

[Kajojek(PL)]

I know this is not the frist thread on the subject but the point keeps getting lost. Damage was added to S2 to reduce the ammount of wall riding and wreching we see while racing. To some degree it worked. But we have grown use to the damage system and I feel its time for bark to gain some teeth.

Crashing needs to become painful to the point where it becomes feared. Whether that means no warping to the pits, no restarting, no rejoing a race in progress, reduced repair ability in the pits, etc. The only way people will start to drive within their abilities and not constantly pushing the very edge is to make exceeding that edge have potentialy hard penalties. People right now are always trying to attack every corner, braking zone, passing oppertunity etc, with no room for error. This is what leads to most of the wrecks and restart requests.

So until the devs can make it more painful its up to us to do so and we have few tools to accomplish this with. The only way I can see to address this now is to setup some servers in the comunity that do not allow restarts, mid race joinging and are runnng long races. Its either that or we will have to just deal with the restarts and the first corner = win mentality that exists in almost all short races.
:iagree:

[Rtsbasic]

I don't disagree with your suggestion, but I don't drive in a racing simulation to drive like I do IRL, I drive in a sim to push my limits that bit further, and as skill goes, I push that bit harder too. A better damage model that is maybe more realistic would be very nice, but there's a point where you have to realise LFS can't be a perfect sim, like being able to warp to pits, if you couldn't do this I think it would take away from the gameplay more than it would add.

Problems arise when people don't know their limit, and this first corner mentality like you say. I would like to have a damage model in LFS where I have to care about the car (in particular engine damage) more so than now, but how it is now isn't that bad. Take the UF1 around SO classic, you start to fear clipping the walls as you go through the chicane and in T1.

[Infiniti]

Instead of points for winning, it could be cash. Then if you scratch your paint online it won't get repaired until you pay for it. Same with damage:scratchch Although then it would be a simulated pc version of Gran Turismo, :shrug: I wouldn't mind that! :D

[Kajojek(PL)]

Heh three posts at the same time.

[filur]

Short races are really the source of people racing in hotlap mode, i've never ever been on a south city / fox / <=10 laps server where even the fastest most experienced racers actually put completing the race reasonably safe as a priority, instead they're in hotlap-pb-limit-n-then-some mode, and crash badly every 2-3 races or so.

That said, even in demo i could see xrt hotlappers transforming into safe driving tyre hugging racers, as the laps were pushed into the 20-30's.

I do however also agree that crashing should be feared even in a 3-lap race.

7 posts while i was writing this, i'm so slow :(

[Highsider9]

its pretty hard to put fear into a video game. :D A FF effect wich destroys your Wheel maybe? :shrug:
That would take some time to get fixed. :D

[MyBoss]

The problem with long-public races is that the no restart tingie will stop after 60 seconds, so when youre on lap 12 of 15 the race just might be restarted. Which is veeery frustrating.

[sgt.flippy]

I like the idea very much. It's kinda dumb how people play the game when you think of it. Everybody wants it to be the perfect sim, but when someone crashes, you have to zap yourself to the pits as fast as possible, so the crash isn't noticable for other players :pillepall If you want it to be real, avoid the crash like it was real. Honestly, how many people actually slow down when the yellow flag comes up? :scratchch

[AndroidXP]

Well, I don't. But atleast I'm prepared that there might be an obstacle on the track, activating my subconscious escape-route-search routine.

[filur]

The problem with long-public races is that the no restart tingie will stop after 60 seconds, so when youre on lap 12 of 15 the race just might be restarted. Which is veeery frustrating.

The no restart thingie is a configurable setting, you can set it to a week of no restarts if you want to :)

[Hyperactive]

I don't think the mid-race join causes really troubles. It's the people who join mid-race, don't obey blue flags and vote for restart every time they spin.

But it's always the same thing with longer online races. There are people coming in and going out all the time and waiting 30 minutes or more for the race starts isn't really going to attract people on any server. I think the optimum race length for random online races is something between 20 and 35 minutes.

I don't know why the forced pitstops aren't more common on more servers because it shortens the gap between slower and faster drivers!?

[MyBoss]

The no restart thingie is a configurable setting, you can set it to a week of no restarts if you want to :)


aite, I thought it only lasted either 30 secs or 60 secs :shrug: :thumb:

[BuddhaBing]

If you crash hard enough, LFS should permanently disable your user account and irreversibly uninstall itself from your system. Since they already have your credit card information, they should clear out your credit card account. And hire someone to go around and kick your dog.

[Ben-Pepito]

Ya the only thing that came to mind for me was the money idea, but I wouldn't enjoy that. I play LFS to race, not to manage my money. Thats why I have a manager :)

[EeekiE]

I don't know why the forced pitstops aren't more common on more servers because it shortens the gap between slower and faster drivers!?

When I host private servers for mates, we always have forced pit stops. It adds way more tension to the game :thumbsup:

[HugeF1]

If you crash hard enough, LFS should permanently disable your user account and irreversibly uninstall itself from your system. Since they already have your credit card information, they should clear out your credit card account. And hire someone to go around and kick your dog.
Best suggestion yet :thumb::thumb:
I love this game, I really do, and the current damage model is great (if a little wacky), but what I'd really like to see is wheels coming off (especially for the Single seaters). But engine and gearbox damage would be good as well.

[Flycantbird]

If you crash, it should take relatively the same time to fix your car as it would in real life. Flat tire - almost a lap. Damaged suspension 5-10 laps.
Flipping over and taking out 3 other cars - race over.

The 'laps' could be percentage of race, so 5 or 500 laps, you still get
an equivilent penalty.

You should also be able to use duck tape, and wander around in 4th gear.
And throw your helmet through someone's windshield.
And make free long distance phone calls.
And drink O.J. out of a carton.

(yes, I call it DUCK tape)

[B2B@300]

All good suggestions :)

I don't think how it is at the moment is necessarily bad though, it would just be nice if you could set up a server to be more real and then encourage drivers to drive within there limits abit more on those servers, but still have your standard servers also. That way we get the best of both worlds.

I do get tired of racing against guys that often are very fast but crash out of every 3rd race or so (and their the good ones) because they just push too hard. And quite often look for longer races for that reason. So to get that same mentality of longer races into the shorter ones (20-30min) would be a great feature for some servers. I would definately frequent such a server :)

[Blowtus]

I'd suggest we need more realistic crashes before we worry about more realistic damage... clipping the pit bay exit at 5km/h in real life doesn't launch you skyward, end over end :)

[Hankstar]

(yes, I call it DUCK tape)



Good, because it IS duck tape! There's no better way to make running repairs to your duck...or fasten two or more ducks together.

:tilt:

[[RCG]Boosted]

i would love to see REAL damage..
when u smash in the wall 1000 parts flying around.. and ur car - done :)
= more reality
= more players will drive more safe
= more action
= more fun for sure ^^

[StanleyCarter]

I don't know about you guys.

But I do FEAR of getting bumped, crashed in LFS. :)

[Julppu]

Well, I don't. But atleast I'm prepared that there might be an obstacle on the track, activating my subconscious escape-route-search routine.

Heh, nothing personal (or dead serious for that matter :razz: ), but isn't this "I'm completely aware of the situation and can still drive as fast as possible" attitude the main cause of most real life crashes? :D

[AndroidXP]

Well, good thing that LFS != RealLife™. Of course I'd slow down IRL, but in LFS the result of a crash doesn't really warrant the slowdown. Also, in LFS, most of the time a crash can be avoided or softened up when I know someone messed up beforehand.

The whole point of this thread is actually to change ^ this ^ by making crashes more severe. If a slight bump on the front could mess up my radiator, thus leading to engine overheating then I'd sure as f*** slow down ;)

[shim]

yeah it would be interesting to see a piston fly out through the bonnet.. :P

[Rappa Z]

If you want people to fear crashing in a 3 lap race you need a track lke the Monaco Grand Prix.

[Vain]

If you want people to fear crashing in a 3 lap race you need a track lke the Monaco Grand Prix.Two words: The Ring.
*runs away scared*

Vain

[v4forlife]

ive got it, but only one person will be able to arce at a time.

you book in a time to experiance 'real' racing and during this booked in time, i come over your house, and stand next to you. depending on the severity of the crash, i punch you in the head. if your a wrecker and crash really hard, i hit you with the sink.

that would bring fear to crashing.

[sgt.flippy]

I will hit you back

[deggis]

But it's always the same thing with longer online races. There are people coming in and going out all the time and waiting 30 minutes or more for the race starts isn't really going to attract people on any server. I think the optimum race length for random online races is something between 20 and 35 minutes.
Yup, race weekends are good for singleplayer (if the AI ever gets better) and for leagues. I don't understand how some rFactor/GTR/GTL guys complaint about this fast and simple 3D shooter multiplayer style game joining. I don't want to join a server, practice a track for 30 mins which I already can drive fast enough and then drive a 20 min qualification, then a warm-up and finally the race itself.

When I host private servers for mates, we always have forced pit stops. It adds way more tension to the game :thumbsup:
I agree. We need a fix that prevents the pitstop cheating on last lap.

I'd suggest we need more realistic crashes before we worry about more realistic damage... clipping the pit bay exit at 5km/h in real life doesn't launch you skyward, end over end :)
It's not about crash physcs itself more about the car model collision problems.

[Hallen]

There are always people who are willing to take higher "risks". Having a more severe damage model will not change the fact that some fast people will be more prone to wrecking than a more conservative driver.

Also, some of the suggestions here might just make it too onerous to try and drive pick-up races. It only takes one dope to launch you into a wall. Then you are sitting in the pits for 20 minutes while you get fixed while everybody else is racing, including the dope that sent you into the wall. He may be very sorry he did it, but that doesn't change the fact that you can't race.

Leagues are great for long races and there is plenty of risk out there now. Get caught in the sand, or get flipped on your roof... you are done. I have seen it happen with just a few laps to go on a very long race. Not a happy moment. For pick-up races, you just have to expect some people to drive in stupid ways...

[Gimpster]

I agree that this is not somthing that needs to be implimented LFS wide but rather a server option for those that want a more serious feel to their online racing. We don't want to remove features that attract different crowds, just add more options for those that want them.

I still have fun in the not so sportman like races. It's great practice for my incident avoindance, perdiction and control skills. But some times I would like to race on a server where every one knows that its better to back off a bit and save the car for a better oppertunity.

I wish I had the time for a regular league but with my schedule and car preference its been difacult to find a league that will work for me.

[sgt.flippy]

Compare it to a shooting game, in some games (let's say America's Army, cause I know that). You say one guy sends you flying and you're out, while they play, in AA it's the same, if someone shoots you right at the start, you have to wait untill the game is finished before you can restart. Or even worse, a teammate shoots you and you have to wait a whole round. Only difference is that AA rounds are maximum 10 minutes :D

[filur]

Compare it to a shooting game

QuakeWorld!

Someone crashes you out, you respawn pretty much instantly, sometimes inside someone else, crashing them out and giving you a point! :razz:

[NaBUru38]

The extreme physic damage model would be awsome... The problem is that intentional wreckers would have a much easier job.

We're already talking about race options, so I'll add some more:

-> One-click tournaments: the admin chooses FE2 R 5laps, race over, points for everybody; then SO1 4laps, race over, points... then final results. then you will have them in lfsworld.net stastistics.

Three to eight races are OK. No championship restarts, no race restarts after the first split, but optional mid-race joining.
The FIA pointing system will not be enough, at least 80% of the drivers should get points.

-> Ghost / hotlap / rally races: no car collision, goals can be:
- a normal race - useful for when rally stages are available.
- best hotlap - drivers have N laps, when they finish the hotlapper wins
- best three laps - after N laps the best three laps of each racer are added up - the best one wins
- "Less Worse Lap" © NaBUrean Prodooktionz 2006 - After N races, the worst laps of each racer are compared. The one who did the less worse lap wins!
- "Hotlap Knockout" © NaBUrean Prodooktionz 2006 - Each lap the driver who did the worst lap is eliminated. If someone completes lap N before a driver does lap N-1, the driver is also eliminated.

[tailing]

I think if you really want serious racing then a league is your only option and I don't see much changing that.

[mrodgers]

Leagues are tough over here in the States for us older fella's, you know, the ones who can't race during the day because they are too in touch with their feminine side and have to play Barbies during the day with the 2 and 5 yr old daughters :Looking_a . We only have 1 league in North America (er, the North American League) and to get everyone in, it is too late (right before bedtime for work) for us east coasters and too early (dinner time) for the west coasters. I run in it, but, it really makes Monday morning a real pain for the first day back to work.

[NaBUru38]

The good side of instant tournaments is that you will race a couple of races in less than e.g. 2 hours and get final results in the same day. If you find a gap in your agenda, you race a tournament in that period. With a real season, you have to "book" free time, which is not always possible.

[duke_toaster]

Respawn as fast as you currently do, but 250m backwards from where you hit the button. Limit respawns to N/20 where N is the number of KM the race is. After that (rounded up) Respawn in the pits. Cars should respawn where they are with the same state of damage but flipped cars should come back the right way up.

IMO that would sort it.

People will driver faster in LFS than in real life. Just stop wallriding and Plato impersonations.

[Funnybear]

ive got it, but only one person will be able to arce at a time.

you book in a time to experiance 'real' racing and during this booked in time, i come over your house, and stand next to you. depending on the severity of the crash, i punch you in the head. if your a wrecker and crash really hard, i hit you with the sink.

that would bring fear to crashing.

Yes. Oh yes. That would so work. A real world crash simulator to bring the real experiance into your home.

'How did you get that black eye and broken arm Chris?'

'Oh. Crashed my FZR into the armco at a hundred and sixty.'

'Shit man. Hows tha car?'

'Oh the cars fine. Respawned and is running like a dream.'

'But'

'Oh the injuries? It's a pretty good simulation.'

'Must be.'

[vanirl]

Got my vote that's for sure. I reckon we do away with restart and add more "damage" - it is a sim after all and not a game.
Yes, we do want to enjoy it and have fun, but play some arcade game if ya don't want to "feel real"

[PLAYLIFE]

More realistic damage, please. I don't mean the the kind where every little detail of the car must come to parts, but the kind where if you shunt heavily then you cannot drive further.

I used to love the Nascar 2 game for the realism. I just couldn't get enough of the fact that if I crashed badly I needed to start all over again.

[Dupson]

"Crashing needs to become painful to the point where it becomes feared. Whether that means no warping to the pits, no restarting, no rejoing a race in progress, reduced repair ability in the pits, etc"

NO NO NO NO

Why i love LFS ?? cause it includes quite real phisics model from the perspective of arcade game. Yes ! I love you can warp to PIT i love you can join , you can restart ! yes ! that what makes the LFS !! very easy and powerful about phisics!! And i dont want it to be changed. Are we goin for another GTR or what ? That what makes it different and that what makes it better. As I said - kinda hardcore driving model and very easy race options/settings/possibilities

let LFS stay this way

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I'm afraid that I too agree there should be more consequences to incidents of a physical nature lol. Not much else to say, the first post says it well.

[maczo]

i think we are coming back to the "hardcore mode"-for-the-hardcore-drivers-and-"as-it-is-now mode"-for-everyone-else suggestion :scratchch

[keiran]

Damage will be improved but the suspension damage in LFS is a great start and also the dirty tyres. Other games I've tried just don't seem to punish the driver for cutting the track and hitting the walls etc.

Keiran

[hammer it]

There are good places to be had where good racing exists, but that aside.....

Maybe we can put these useless points to work in this aspect. Create a new server area so then we would have.... demo, main, advanced servers to choose from.

In the Advanced server connections it would cost you points to get your car fixed when you crash. If you run low on points you could go back to the main servers and win some races to build up your points again.

Hmmmmm........

[Breizh]

Sounds like the GPL easy/medium/pro damage modes.

[hammer it]

I didn't mean different levels of damage... not at all
Just that it would cost you points to get your damage fixed
Perhaps there should be a limit too.... you have to have XXX number of points or you cannot connect to the advanced servers. Would help to keep wreckers out

[SlamDunk]

Disabling the pit shortcut key and the reset key would be a really effective way of making people to really start avoiding crashes and driving more carefully. It's of course also a step towards realism.

If you crash and can't recover then that's it, you're done and if you damage your car enough you have to drive to the pits.

But, yeah... would that system actually scare the people away from LFS? :scratchch

[Breizh]

Encrypt credit balance, and make damage repair paid for in credits.
There'd need to be an accomodation for less serious/skilled players, or make it a server toggle, so one could race to refill their balance with a clear conscience (wrt to the risk of crashing) on repair-for-free servers.

There could also be a separate system for leagues, where anything to do with damage (repair/teleporting to pits/resetting/anything i forgot) would have its balance independent from races outside the series.
This would be like ballast, organizers and participants would come to a consensus beforehand (duh).

[tailing]

Why i love LFS ?? cause it includes quite real phisics model from the perspective of arcade game. Yes ! I love you can warp to PIT i love you can join , you can restart ! yes ! that what makes the LFS !! very easy and powerful about phisics!! And i dont want it to be changed. Are we goin for another GTR or what ? That what makes it different and that what makes it better. As I said - kinda hardcore driving model and very easy race options/settings/possibilities

let LFS stay this way

I totally agree, the useability of LFS is second to none but people would throw it by the wayside all for supposedly more realistic racing. Like I've said alreay leagues are where you'll find the most realistic racing, in an hour long race I do my darndest not to make any contact with anything because it will cost you. Expecting this type of racing in your average pickup race is just not realistic and making things more and more restrictive will not stop the fools or those who just want some fun but it will make LFS a more difficult piece of software to use.
I know not everyone can run in leagues but I think you still have the option of finding a bunch of like minded racers, setting up a server and getting together regularly for some racing more to your liking.

[Gimpster]

I am sure that most of the people asking for a way to make the sim more hardcore do not want it to be the only way LFS can be. I still enjoy racing in less strict races/sprints, but some times I am in the mode for some close clean serious racing. The ability to setup a server to carter to this crowd enable LFS to cater to a wider slice of the population.

I don't want to see LFS become in accesable to any group, drifters, banger racing, auto cross, stunt drivers, KBers, Mousers the casual racer or the hard core racers. I would just like the ability to setup a server to cater more effectivly to each different group. So that people intrested in one type of racing over another can build a place to do so, without having to make it private and then screen people or distribute passwords, etc.

[NaBUru38]

Nice one, Gimpster. Clear, straight, true.

[_rod_]

I personally like hammer ideia. I think that, this way it will please more people, those who a deadly serious about racing, where to have access you have to have credits, and to rapair would cost points, with or w/o resets(warping to pits). And another area where you can do the things you can now in lfs, such as reseting your car, free damage, and no restrictions to get in.

The down side about this is that will split the comunity ingame, so meaning that will have even more empty servers on the free side (wich we already have today)

PS: If that didnt make any sence, dont worry its not you, its me. If doesnt make sence i´ll edit it tomorow.

[AleksejBASOwarrior]

I think thata crashs model in LFS is more then good.

It would too much if it was more realistic...

Come on people, is it not enough for U ?

For me yes, even if I dont crash so much...

Little bump ower something and your suspension is allready not same, and some contact and U feel unstabiliti when driving, braking....

Only thing that need improvemen is ELASTIC effect when chrash with barier or so!!! :scratchch

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

The goal in the end is create an experience that emulates racing reality as closely as possible. Therefore it needs improvement! I have a hard time thinking that real cars put up with as much as the LFS cars do even now!

[Hankstar]

Yup :nod: I can't remember hearing about any car hitting a wall head-on at 100kph and managing to finish a race (not without a very long pit stop). The LFS cars either have alien safety-cell technology or the damage model needs improvement. But I'm sure the devs know that, even without coming to this forum and reading it every other month :)

Alekse - in sim-world, no amount of realism is EVER enough! :D

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Yeah, once things are where they should be there will likely be lots of complainers at first. People are going to have to learn to drive A) on the track all the time and B) with more concern for "incidental contact". If you look at the size of some of the curbs you can hop right now, and do it every lap, there's no reason to try and drive clean yet.

[Hyperactive]

I just can't wait the moment when I am driving the FOX in fern bay and accidentally drive over one of those high curbs: result being that the steering rod in front left suspension is broken, the rim is slightly bent and the front wing is there no more. :lovies3d:

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I just can't wait the moment when I am driving the FOX in fern bay and accidentally drive over one of those high curbs: result being that the steering rod in front left suspension is broken, the rim is slightly bent and the front wing is there no more. :lovies3d:

This will be GREAT!
:clapclap: :wow: :bananalla

[Darkone55]

I have to agree. Tonight I was bouncing across the kerbs at the FE chicane at nearly 100mph in the FOX, as was everybody else, never any damage when it should've probably smashed the front suspension to bits.

Well, I must say, I had a race on Blackwood with the FOX some time ago. And after about 20 laps I noticed my suspension has bend. :D

[sshhaabb]

:thumb: Boosted']i would love to see REAL damage..
when u smash in the wall 1000 parts flying around.. and ur car - done :)
= more reality
= more players will drive more safe
= more action
= more fun for sure ^^