Round 2: Race Discussion and Penalties

[DeadWolfBones]

PENALTIES

Qualifying:
N/A

Race:
#06 - DT for avoidable contact with #08
#17 - DT for incorrect skin
#28 - DT for incorrect skin
#26 - DT for avoidable contact with #18

[Mysho]

The server for me simply dissapeared from LFS when I wanted to join to do a stint, I tried to find by name - it said he is NOT online while he was driving on the server, never seen anything like this before... :shrug: I tried like 10 people and all offline, how the blah can server be not on the list of LFS? Bug or what?

[J@tko]

The server for me simply dissapeared from LFS when I wanted to join to do a stint, I tried to find by name - it said he is NOT online while he was driving on the server, never seen anything like this before... :shrug: I tried like 10 people and all offline, how the blah can server be not on the list of LFS? Bug or what?
I had that before :shrug:

[rc10racer]

The server for me simply dissapeared from LFS when I wanted to join to do a stint, I tried to find by name - it said he is NOT online while he was driving on the server, never seen anything like this before... :shrug: I tried like 10 people and all offline, how the blah can server be not on the list of LFS? Bug or what?

This what victor told me about it.


hi, the master had to be restarted twice just now. But it's up and running now and will remain so.

victor

weird. I did see it on the remote, though it wasn't on lfsworld's host list. Apparently the host didn't register with the master, so noone could join it.
However now I see it back again, in the master and on lfsworld.

Too bad you've had to stop the race

victor

[DeadWolfBones]

To clarify, the "gaps" that one car had over another at the end of the first part of the race were erased with the race restart, as they would have been in a real life race. The result on the tracker will be final, barring any penalties, and plus 65 total laps.

[Megin]

PENALTIES

Race:
...
#17 - DT for incorrect skin
...

I watch replay and i see proper skin... what was wrong with our skin? :shrug:
Could u upload printscreen of our car? :smileypul

[DeadWolfBones]

I watch replay and i see proper skin... what was wrong with our skin? :shrug:
Could u upload printscreen of our car? :smileypul

New plates, introduced for this round. See skin thread.

Also, you continued to drive after we told you to stop in T1 at the end of the race. This may incur a further penalty, we need to investigate.

[CSF]

After that, I'm going to the pub. :thumb:

See you at AS7. :schwitz:

[Easy_Mike]

i want replay from first start, IGTC server.
got badly owned by the cars behind when i stopped for an accident ahead were cars were blocking the track.

safe to say that someone made me the bullit to clear the road.

also an incident in lap 20 ish that i need a better look at.

thx in advance.

#27

[boothy]

http://www.mediafire.com/?ycjetbxc3zy First half of race :)

[BenjiMC]

http://www.mediafire.com/?ycjetbxc3zy First half of race :)
thankyou

[Megin]

New plates, introduced for this round. See skin thread.

Also, you continued to drive after we told you to stop in T1 at the end of the race. This may incur a further penalty, we need to investigate.

1. About new skins... now I know I have to read not only drivers meeting, make confirmation but also every thread in this forum before race (and also read some crap with it). It will be useful to announced changes like new skins also in drivers meeting or better by pm (for example with PM announcing confirmation)
2. Oh, I didn't catch those messages about stopping in T1, really sorry for troubles

[DeadWolfBones]

1. About new skins... now I know I have to read not only drivers meeting, make confirmation but also every thread in this forum before race (and also read some crap with it). It will be useful to announced changes like new skins also in drivers meeting or better by pm (for example with PM announcing confirmation)
2. Oh, I didn't catch those messages about stopping in T1, really sorry for troubles

Yeah, perhaps we ought to announce skin changes and such via PM, but the posts about the new logos were in the skins thread since about 2 days after the last race. Plenty of time for everyone to see them. In general, if there's a new post in the IGTC forum, you should read it.

If we're using the MoE tracker, you ALWAYS need to stop in T1 (or somewhere before the sector 1 split), because the tracker can mess up if you go further.

Thanks!

[hyntty]

Can I make a point (or a semicolon if you like). I think it's rather absurd that the penalties given are for incorrect numberboards (to which no one pays attention to) (and arguably when the info of it being changed is not even being announced in an info thread) when teams who do not show up after making their confirmation when there is a mile long waiting list are not penalized at all.

[srdjanmilasinovic]

First, grats to podium!!! :thumb::thumb::thumb:


And can anybody upload second race on second server, I don't have replay.

[DeadWolfBones]

Can I make a point (or a semicolon if you like). I think it's rather absurd that the penalties given are for incorrect numberboards (to which no one pays attention to) (and arguably when the info of it being changed is not even being announced in an info thread) when teams who do not show up after making their confirmation when there is a mile long waiting list are not penalized at all.

The rules state that teams who miss two consecutive (or three total) races during the season will be demoted to the bottom of the waiting list.

Both AMT and Mercury gave good enough reasons for failing to attend, and I'm 99% sure that n!faculty's absence was due to a time zone mixup (given that their driver connected at 18:59, as if he were showing up for quali. That's silly but not unforgivable.

[CSF]

I would like to ask what the admins will do if a situation like the one we had yesterday with the server occurs again. Will we have the same mumbo jumbo with the lapped cars racing each other while they were being 'lapped', while the admins tell us that we should check the tracker... which they had not checked was working correctly before restarting? Or will you guys now rethink that calamity and present a better solution in the future?

[boothy]

The way you could resolve the blug flag situation by using LFS, is to have the drivers start the 2nd part of the race in the tracker order, and then have the the cars on the lead lap go around the circuit and lap those at the back who are 1 or 2 laps down, then reset all cars and then begin the rolling start - don't know how much that would muck up the tracker though, but it would preserve the blue flags! :scratchch

[AMB]

and I'm 99% sure that n!faculty's absence was due to a time zone mixup (given that their driver connected at 18:59, as if he were showing up for quali. That's silly but not unforgivable.

Correct, sorry I should of known this, although I wasn't actually driving but came on to support the team and found out they had a mix up :x

[DeadWolfBones]

I would like to ask what the admins will do if a situation like the one we had yesterday with the server occurs again. Will we have the same mumbo jumbo with the lapped cars racing each other while they were being 'lapped', while the admins tell us that we should check the tracker... which they had not checked was working correctly before restarting? Or will you guys now rethink that calamity and present a better solution in the future?

In the future, should this happen again, cars will be ordered in tracker order (rather than on-track order) for the subsequent restart. We did it the way we did it yesterday because I thought it had to be that way for tracker continuity, but that turned out not to be the case.

As for the tracker not correctly continuing on from the original race, that was a mixup on the tracker admin end that will also be done more smoothly in the future.

[CSF]

In the future, should this happen again, cars will be ordered in tracker order (rather than on-track order) for the subsequent restart. We did it the way we did it yesterday because I thought it had to be that way for tracker continuity, but that turned out not to be the case.

As for the tracker not correctly continuing on from the original race, that was a mixup on the tracker admin end that will also be done more smoothly in the future.

Thanks for the quick response. :thumb:

[Dragonmen]

I would like to ask what the admins will do if a situation like the one we had yesterday with the server occurs again.

As I see it, and this is only my 5 cents to this topic, the solution could be something along the next lines:

1. If server is laggy or there are problems like we had them in this last race: Choose time when you want to end the first part of the race. I.e. in the case of this last race, admins could have changed the length of the race to 2hrs, announce on server that every one on track should finish the race as it is regular end of race. That way you will have exacts gaps between teams saved and you can make a screenshot on server and announce it before the 2nd part of the race so the managers and who ever from the team wants, can take a look and calculate positions... when part 2 is over, add all the results and that is final result.

2. If server crashed: Take the second to last full lap of the leader and count it as the end of the race part 1. In that way you will have time differences between all cars on track, when they cross the line in that lap, after the leader crossed it. Start the part 2 of the race in order that the lap in question is finished. Add all the times of this two races and you will have your standings. Same as in case 1, before starting part 2 of the race, announce gaps between cars (could be some kind of screenshot of tracker or in-race screenshot, it's a little bit harder in this case...).

I believe saving gaps is the only fair solution. I remember watching some races in real life that had to be stopped and they had aggregate time for final standings... also, to be full fair in saying this, there were opposite cases in real life too, when drivers lost their gaps, but I think there is less of those...

[DeadWolfBones]

I believe saving gaps is the only fair solution. I remember watching some races in real life that had to be stopped and they had aggregate time for final standings... also, to be full fair in saying this, there were opposite cases in real life too, when drivers lost their gaps, but I think there is less of those...

I can't think of a single circuit racing series that does it this way. All series that I know of, when red-flagged, line up the cars nose-to-tail and then have a regular rolling restart, which is what we attempted to approximate yesterday.

[Dragonmen]

I can't think of a single circuit racing series that does it this way. All series that I know of, when red-flagged, line up the cars nose-to-tail and then have a regular rolling restart, which is what we attempted to approximate yesterday.

Did I say something different to this? I just added that the results should be aggregate, both parts added together with gaps of the first part.

I know my english is not excellent but I do not think it is that bad to understand me... :shrug:

I remember seeing this in openwheel c'ships which I like the most of the all racing series... I believe I saw it in F1 in some very old races, also in some lower openwheel series... very clearly I remember seeing it in motoGP and bike races...

[BenjiMC]

i personally don't think it's a practical solution. Essentially a red flag situation is just a safety car period but because of a more dire situation which we can have little or no control over.

[hyntty]

F1 Japanese GP of 1994?

[dekojester]

Did I say something different to this? I just added that the results should be aggregate, both parts added together with gaps of the first part.

I know my english is not excellent but I do not think it is that bad to understand me... :shrug:

I remember seeing this in openwheel c'ships which I like the most of the all racing series... I believe I saw it in F1 in some very old races, also in some lower openwheel series... very clearly I remember seeing it in motoGP and bike races...

If my memory serves, F1 no longer does this aggregation.

Imagine how confusing it would be for everyone, especially me in the booth having to say something like, "And here we see F1RST racing in the lead on-track by 9 seconds over spdoRacing, but spdoRacing is in front by 21 seconds." That would get a lot of o_O reactions.

Erasing gaps is easiest for admins, easiest for spectators, and easiest for competitors, on my view. You simply have to worry about finishing ahead. Laps are the only gaps that easily can be saved. Doing gaps of partial laps can lead to epic confusion.

Admins did a great job yesterday. Also great compliments to the drivers for their patience (I didn't see any impatience) and compliance in the issue.

Great racing all other times.

d

[boothy]

If my memory serves, F1 no longer does this aggregation.

Yeah F1 seems to have removed the two part race from their regs, so like the 07 Nurburgring red flag, where a complete restart isn't available (after 2 laps) cars stop at the s/f line and the SC then restarts the race.

[Dragonmen]

In case of series where you have SC like in IGTC we can say that a red flag situation came up after SC period and that way the gaps are erased, that's fine... and because this is IGTC part of forum I will not mention MoE although they share some admin personnel.

I did not say it is practical, I just think and I will always think of that as only fair... nothing can be totally fair in this situations.
Yes, it can make confusion, but it is better to have something that will determine the result during the race than nothing which we had in some races (well it seems I have to mention MoE over here :shrug:)...

Any way, what ever is decision on the ruling on this, I just hope it is well written in rule book... and then it is fair enough for everybody...


@huntty> yeah, that was the last one I think in F1. Good memory! :thumb:

[PMD9409]

Just put it in the rule book so teams don't find out with 30 minutes to go in the race that the gaps will be erased.

[DeadWolfBones]

Just put it in the rule book so teams don't find out with 30 minutes to go in the race that the gaps will be erased.

Teams should never have assumed something that wasn't in the rulebook, anyway.

The rules of section N, Force Majeure, state:

2) In cases of force majeure, the race will move to the designated backup server and be restarted.

2.1) An interrupted race will be restarted with the time remaining rounded to the nearest hour. If 15 minutes of a race are completed before the server crash, the race will be restarted with 4 hours remaining. If 30 minutes or more of a given race hour are completed, that hour will be counted as completed--i.e., a race in which the server crashes at 1:30 or 1:31 will be restarted with 2 hours to go, whereas 1:29 would mean 3 hours to go.

2.2) The grid for a restarted race will be set using tracker data. Furthermore, all IGTC admins and marshals will have auto-save enabled as a backup.

2.3) Restarts following a server crash will be handled in the same manner as a normal race start. See rules G1 to G4.

Nowhere in this section does it indicate that gaps would be preserved.

Nevertheless, we'll be glad to put it in the rules if the teams feel it is necessary.

[PMD9409]

Teams should never have assumed something that wasn't in the rulebook, anyway.

The rules of section N, Force Majeure, state:



Nowhere in this section does it indicate that gaps would be preserved.

Nevertheless, we'll be glad to put it in the rules if the teams feel it is necessary.

Read rule 2.3, it states it would resume as a "normal race start". This should mean that lappers will not be mixed in with lead lap cars (as on a normal race start there is no such thing as a lapped car). We started 2nd (on tracker), but 8th on track. After seeing this not go as stated in the rules I thought I could assume anything else had the possibility of changing, guess not.

Also, I'm guessing since we didn't do the full 4 hours that the 80% rule doesn't apply?

[DeadWolfBones]

Read rule 2.3, it states it would resume as a "normal race start". This should mean that lappers will not be mixed in with lead lap cars (as on a normal race start there is no such thing as a lapped car). We started 2nd (on tracker), but 8th on track. After seeing this not go as stated in the rules I thought I could assume anything else had the possibility of changing, guess not.

As already explained above, the lappers were mixed in with the lead-lap cars because I (incorrectly) believed that the tracker needed them to be that way for continuity reasons. In the future the grid for a restart will be sorted according to the tracker rundown, not the on-track rundown.

Also, I'm guessing since we didn't do the full 4 hours that the 80% rule doesn't apply?

In this case, it doesn't matter, since no one went over 80% (Jonathan Hopwood had 79.9%). If they had it would have been something for the admins to consider--and yes, this is probably something we should decide anyway and put in the rules.

[Myros]

I think this should be taken like normal SC situation and then restart should be in position taken from tracker rather then on-track so this was only one mistake from admins I think.I hope there will be no next time.After red flag we were last on track (on tracker we were on lead lap)so we had to overtake all slower cars (no blue flag) some of them were blocking our drivers massively for 1-2 laps so it was even harder race :schwitz:

[PMD9409]

As already explained above, the lappers were mixed in with the lead-lap cars because I (incorrectly) believed that the tracker needed them to be that way for continuity reasons. In the future the grid for a restart will be sorted according to the tracker rundown, not the on-track rundown.


Salt in wound. :razz:
No problem, just lost us a lot of track position, and made things a little annoying as Myros stated.


In this case, it doesn't matter, since no one went over 80% (Jonathan Hopwood had 79.9%). If they had it would have been something for the admins to consider--and yes, this is probably something we should decide anyway and put in the rules.

I knew no one went over, I was just wondering if something about it could be put in the rules.

[DeadWolfBones]

I think this should be taken like normal SC situation and then restart should be in position taken from tracker rather then on-track so this was only one mistake from admins I think.I hope there will be no next time.After red flag we were last on track (on tracker we were on lead lap)so we had to overtake all slower cars (no blue flag) some of them were blocking our drivers massively for 1-2 laps so it was even harder race :schwitz:

Yeah, I'm sorry about this. It was my mistake (playing it conservative, not sure what the tracker was capable of) and it hurt some teams and really helped some others. I'm sorry it affected the race like that.

Anyway, congrats on a great finish (I think your best in IGTC?). :thumbsup: