Mouse vs Keyboard

[Pellit]

What do you suggest?

i use the keyboard as (being new) if i use the mouse, when i clip grass e.t.c and swerve, i panic and go crazy, lol:D So i use the keyboard.

However, i have heard two people say that mouse is better, so...yeah...like i said before, what do you think?

[Zero7]

Mouse definitely. I still use a mouse and you'll get far more precision with it over the keyboard. Just practice, practice practice. I can now just about control the single seaters with a mouse (you'll need an S2 license for those cars).

Some tips though when using the mouse with the XRT - set the button reduction rate (I think that's what it's called under the control section) to a low value, that way the acceleration increases more gradually and helps prevent wheel spin and the backend snapping out.

[Jakg]

mouse, easier to catch slides IF it is correctly set up, can someone please post a half decent mouse set up please?

[Thorvertonian]

I'll be the first to say it, neither, buy a wheel!

[geeman1]

I'll be the first to say it, neither, buy a wheel!
Yeah. If you are even half serious about LFS (or simracers in general) you should get a wheel. Prices should not be an issue, since cheapest wheels cost under 30€/35$/20£ and you probably can get one used for even less.

[NetDemon01]

Pellit is asking about Mouse versus Keyboard, not about buying a wheel. So lets not turn this into yet ANOTHER thread where the "serious":rolleyes: racers try to convince us "nonserious":rolleyes: racers to buy a wheel. I can tell you Pellit from personal experience, mouse is better and will make you faster. I used KB all through S1 and I thought it was fast. But I've adapted to using the mouse with S2 for analog controlling of braking, throttling, and turning, and my lap times have dropped majorly. Sometimes it can get crazy if you panic and jerk the mouse around too much. That's where practice comes into play. The movements need to be gentle.

[bbman]

Where is GianniC when the keyboarders need him? :D

No, honestly, it's totally up to your liking... I myself drove with mouse before I got a wheel, but there are many fast keyboarders out there also...

[Funnybear]

There are fast keyboarders out there, but I have never met one.

I use the mouse for steering, Throttle and braking. With a manual box going through the k/b.

There is another thread here that has some good tips mate. Reading through that should give you some hints.

[fujiwara]

Pellit, being a demo racer and using keyboard i strongly advice you to forget the keyboard.
It seems really easy to control, but wait till you starting seeking for fast times, it will become painfull ant stressfull.
Devote (lol) the most possible of time in LFS racing with with the mouse.
And when you buy LFS (oh yes, you will feel the urge to do this), the best choice will be the wheel, till then i think you really don't need the wheel.

PS: I did 1.32.44 a few days ago in BLGP using the XFG, but i took ages, and now this time is easly beaten by mouse, wheel players with a few weeks of gaming.
cya

[xgen]

I am having a problem with the button reduction rate, I have it on the lowest setting possible and I still cant get a gradual start in the high power cars, does it make a difference if I use left or right click for throttle? I am using right for throttle and left for brakes, just like a real car, and still cant drive anything that has some power behind it without spinning out of control, the only way I can get most cars going is double clicking a bunch of time untill it speeds up.

This is very annoying and I cant enjoy all of the cars, I dont have the money for a FF wheel yet and this is all I have.

[danowat]

If it were a choice between mouse and keyboard, I would say mouse, simply because it allows for "analog" control over the steering, the keyboard is a very on/off affair, its can be used no problem, but I find it very slow to drive this way.
The main problem with the mouse is that you still have digital (on/off) acceleration and braking controls, unless there is a way to move the mouse up and down to accell and brake.
If you are low on funds, but serious about LFS, then to start with get at least an analog pad, these are very cheap or you can even use a console one with an adaptor, you will then have both analog steering and throttle/brake.
Then save up enough to get a decent wheel, it really does make a big difference.
To to summurize, mouse or keyboard : mouse , start from there and look to getting a better control method in the future.

Dan,

[Funnybear]

For them that is asking about mouse Tips. Read through the thread 'Help for a fellow racer'.

Good mouse hints a plenty in there . . .

XGEN - It's all in the setup mate. Button reduction won't do alot on it's own. Read through the above thread to get some pointers on how to start contolling the big mothers.

I drive the Big Rear Wheel GT predominatly (How come I can't remember three little letters when I've been playing this for ages now!) And got my PB down to a 1.33.55 on AS. NAT. Not too fart of the WR record and pretty spankingly good for a mouser. I can now use that setup on most tracks and crack out a few good times with only a few adjustments.

Read some of the manuals going around. They will really help to get to grips with the basics, from there we can all help you out here.

But go check out the other thread, I've been helping some others in there and I can't be bothered to repeat myself.

[NetDemon01]

The main problem with the mouse is that you still have digital (on/off) acceleration and braking controls, unless there is a way to move the mouse up and down to accell and brake.

Like I've stated in some other threads, along with many others, I have the mouse for analog steering, analog braking, analog throttle. So that isn't a problem. The only problem with this setup is that you have to select the wheel option as your controller(so you can assign y-axis of the mouse), so the game and lfsworld designates you as a wheel driver even though you're using a mouse.

[Pellit]

ok, i'll give the keyboard a go

[Funnybear]

Nooooooo. Not the Keyboard. Leave the keyboard alone. Put the Keyboard on the floor and step away from the moniter . . . . . er. Ok, use the keyboard for the gear change, but use the mouse for everything else . . .

[Takumi_Project.d]

a mouse+keyboard combination is technically better than the keyboard alone, since you can have analogue steering. only thing is it will feel totally unnatural when you are first learning. however when you get used to it, it's quite an amazing control method, turn as quickly as you want and with dead accuracy.

im a mouse racer and have no problem keeping up with wheelers, even have 2 WR's outright :)

however i will say..
some people also use the up/down motion of the mouse to enable analogue acceleration and brake (and at the same time, left and right on the mouse to steer), i would advise against this as it simply gives the mouse too many things to do and your racing will no doubt suffer from this. also, others use the mouse buttons for accelerating and braking.. but for me this also feels like again the mouse hand is doing too much

the answer? use A for accelerate, Z for brake, X for clutch, space for handbrake. this gives your left hand complete control over all the speed related controls. you can easily blip the throtte while braking, or even blip the throttle while braking and using the clutch, the finger which is used for brake can move across to hit both Z & X together, etc.

this leaves your right hand free to steer with the mouse, and shift gears with the mouse buttons.

that's the setup i use, and i personally havn't found one for this control type which is better! hope this is helpful

tak

[NotAnIllusion]

I can vouch for the above, been using exactly that controls layout from day 1 :D

[NetDemon01]

i would advise against this as it simply gives the mouse too many things to do and your racing will no doubt suffer from this.
I wouldn't say that is a fact for everyone. Just depends how coordinated a person is. I have my keyboard do the shifting and clutch, and mouse do throttle/brake/steer. Works fine for me. Though while I don't have any WR times, I'm anywhere from .5 to a few seconds off of them.

[Takumi_Project.d]

I wouldn't say that is a fact for everyone. Just depends how coordinated a person is. I have my keyboard do the shifting and clutch, and mouse do throttle/brake/steer. Works fine for me. Though while I don't have any WR times, I'm anywhere from .5 to a few seconds off of them.

its true, i can only share my point of view. i tried it for a while and it came across as slightly clumsy - actually its method seemed very familar to using a joystick - each direction is controlling something. if your car snaps into oversteer and you rapidly try to counter steer, the odds that you may accidently move the mouse up or down slightly as you slide the mouse sideways across the mousepad is quite high! i dont think its much to do with coordination, if you spend time with any controller setup you can master it.

i have a hard mousepad, i often have a problem with feeling grit under the mouse, on a straight i am able to lift the mouse up and brush the grit away with the back of my hand, i cant do that if the mouse is controlling my throttle ;)

but in my view, i see controlling a car is made up of 2 main controls, the "pedal" controls (throttle/brakes/clutch) and the "steering+shifting" controls. real cars splits the tasks between your feet and your arms. imo on a keyboard and mouse it makes sense to split them up also, so essentially my left hand are my feet, and the right hand are my arms so to speak.

whatever you choose to do instead is upto you :)

[Chaos]

the answer? use A for accelerate, Z for brake, X for clutch, space for handbrake. This leaves your right hand free to steer with the mouse, and shift gears with the mouse buttons.
Excatly the set I used for over a year until I got a wheel and I can say i was very competetive with the wheel guys...

I'd vote for this to be the default mouse setting for LFS...

[Funnybear]

See, I do it the other way around, gear change on the K/B and throttle/brake on the mouse buttons . . . . Strange isn't it, everyones little idiosyncrasies.

But I think I will try something different, if you guys are fast with the acc./ brake on the Keboard then I might just give it a go. Take me a bloody age to get used to it and I'm not sure if its a good idea to chop and change you control methods but it might just work.


BTW, when do you guys use the clutch? I have never felt the need to use during racing? Is there a certain time and a place when the clutch aids your speed or handling? (I am using auto clutch.)

[Chaos]

BTW, when do you guys use the clutch? I have never felt the need to use during racing? Is there a certain time and a place when the clutch aids your speed or handling? (I am using auto clutch.)
not in normal racing, but it's handy when you spin out and want to get the car facing the right way quickly...

[Takumi_Project.d]

BTW, when do you guys use the clutch? I have never felt the need to use during racing? Is there a certain time and a place when the clutch aids your speed or handling? (I am using auto clutch.)

I use autoclutch, however I dont use throttle cut or blip. It's really handy to have the clutch button on hand as there are certain times I'll use it, like when changing down multiple gears at once or recovering from accidents, etc.

I'd only change your accel/brake to keyboard if your current style bugs you.. If you've taken the time to learn that way you may as well stick to it :) I cant really say either style is better than the other, just personally for me one way makes alot more sense.. in the end its just my opinion :)

[janm]

I, for instance, like the keyboard ''feeling'' very much. As said in the upper posts, practice is vital to get results and also getting to know how the car reacts to your style of driving and adapting the style to the car if needed...
I'm currently only a second off the wr in demo and there are even faster keyboarders out there...I find the mouse a bit tricky and can't drive as agressively as with a keyboard. The mouse steering is a specific thing and requires spot on accuracy to get the fastest times i guess...

[Chaos]

I, for instance, like the keyboard ''feeling'' very much. As said in the upper posts, practice is vital to get results and also getting to know how the car reacts to your style of driving and adapting the style to the car if needed...
I'm currently only a second off the wr in demo and there are even faster keyboarders out there...I find the mouse a bit tricky and can't drive as agressively as with a keyboard. The mouse steering is a specific thing and requires spot on accuracy to get the fastest times i guess...
well i can imagine driving alone on the keyboard, but what i can't imagine is racing... how do you handle if someone hits your rear wheel or when you find yourself having to drive across curbs, etc. or you find yourself in any other unexpected situation, that requires quick and precise steering input?

I know it's not a prob with mouse/wheel, because you can steer as fast you manage, but with keyboard you are limited to what you have set in options...

[janm]

well i can imagine driving alone on the keyboard, but what i can't imagine is racing... how do you handle if someone hits your rear wheel or when you find yourself having to drive across curbs, etc. or you find yourself in any other unexpected situation, that requires quick and precise steering input?

I know it's not a prob with mouse/wheel, because you can steer as fast you manage, but with keyboard you are limited to what you have set in options...
Yes, you got a point there... A keyboard is not the best option in such cases. The keys sensitivity can't be set both for quick steering in situation of spinning or loosing the rear and for clean racing, smooth turning...Maybe a good setup is possible for the keyboard to be more ''allround'', but i'm not sure...

[Zero7]

I am having a problem with the button reduction rate, I have it on the lowest setting possible and I still cant get a gradual start in the high power cars, does it make a difference if I use left or right click for throttle? I am using right for throttle and left for brakes, just like a real car, and still cant drive anything that has some power behind it without spinning out of control, the only way I can get most cars going is double clicking a bunch of time untill it speeds up.

This is very annoying and I cant enjoy all of the cars, I dont have the money for a FF wheel yet and this is all I have.

What I've found to help with this is to switch on the Throttle Help for most of the GTR's (except FXR) and the Single Seaters. The side effect of course is that off the line you can be stranded a bit, so you still need a few double-clicks thrown in there.

[Funnybear]

I've swapped. I'm using the mouse for the gear changes and the keyboard for dah power to wheely things and stoppinging of the shiny thing . . . And changed a few things in my settings, Analogue steer thing and button adjustment thing. And I reckon, once I get used to it, I have some kick arse times in that car of mine . . . It's taken at least 20-30m of my braking zone already and my steering is a lot freerer now I don't have to worry about the 'pedals' with the same hand. Still getting confused but that will sort it self out ofter some serious Muscle Memory retraining.

Thanks for the info guys. LFS has just reached another level . . . . Just when I think I've learned all there is to know . . . .

[Zero7]

Interesting Funnybear. Like you I've been using the mouse to control throttle/brake and the k/b for gears, so I might try swapping it over.

[Funnybear]

It is taking ages to get used to . . really confusing, but the mouse feels so much free'er in the hand now whilst steering. I'm not fast yet but you know when something just feels like it has a lot of potential. . . . A bit of practice it'll soon come together.

[deggis]

What I've found to help with this is to switch on the Throttle Help for most of the GTR's (except FXR) and the Single Seaters.
Do you mouse/keyboard users use Throtthe / Brake Help in general? I just can't understand you can control GTR cars with just tapping the buttons and still drive fast times. :)

[Zero7]

Not in general for me. The only reason I use it is to preserve tyres (especially on the XFR) and for starts. I can floor it at the start in the FOX, let it spin and then the throttle help kicks in (a bit like traction control I suppose) and helps prevent the car from skidding sideways. It's still very tricky on the V8 which is why if you look at my stats on LFSW you'll see I don't generally drive that one. For example, my FOX on SO Classic is 2 seconds off the WR, still someway to go, but good mousers can keep up with the pack.

One of the tricks I find with the GTR's is to use the engine to brake through the corner, then hit the gas just past the apex. Tapping the buttons generally comes in when you're on a long sweeping bend (Kyoto especially). I still get a buzz even with this control method, but I'm eyeing up the DFP as a treat :)

[Takumi_Project.d]

I've swapped. I'm using the mouse for the gear changes and the keyboard for dah power to wheely things and stoppinging of the shiny thing . . . And changed a few things in my settings, Analogue steer thing and button adjustment thing. And I reckon, once I get used to it, I have some kick arse times in that car of mine . . . It's taken at least 20-30m of my braking zone already and my steering is a lot freerer now I don't have to worry about the 'pedals' with the same hand. Still getting confused but that will sort it self out ofter some serious Muscle Memory retraining.

Thanks for the info guys. LFS has just reached another level . . . . Just when I think I've learned all there is to know . . . .

congratulations! :D

[janm]

Sorry for interrupting the disscussion...Just wanna know if this Analyze for speed programm is for licensed users only? I'm a demo racer and when i run the programm it says ''can not load a track for Blackwood''...
I've downloaded the meshes...And i've output the lap data for the laps desired(.raf files). Thanks for the reply.

[NotAnIllusion]

Nah it works for demo users all the same, make sure you entered the correct LFS path in AFS:

Open AFS, under View>Preferences ensure you have the path to your actual LFS installation.

[janm]

don't have a ''Preferences'' option under ''View''...only zoom in, zoom out, move left, move right...No preference option anywhere in afs...

[Funnybear]

Nah. Couldn't get it together. Gone back to Mouse throttling and weighing the anchor. And managed to get the fastest AS. Nat. first sector times I've ever had. Couldn't keep it together for the chicane though, kept pressing the wrong buttons . . . . lol.

If I had used the k/b for the throttle from the start then I might be fast, but not now. Plus I have a free hand (Gear change hand) to do al sorts of K/B stuff (all the F functions as well as everything else). So i have reverted to what I was. Possible regressed in some opions, but I am faster than ever, once I stop pressing the wrong buttons.

[Takumi_Project.d]

oi!!!!!! change it back!! lol. if you had made it through the change over period you would have been set ;)

its true my way is harder to do other things, but ive learnt to basically do everything except talk... no big problem

[janm]

Nah it works for demo users all the same, make sure you entered the correct LFS path in AFS:

Open AFS, under View>Preferences ensure you have the path to your actual LFS installation.

Had an older version... It should work now, i guess...
Thanks.

[Rooble]

Mouse all the way baby:smileypul
As a beginner i know how difficult it is to get used to a mouse setup, its all twitchy, and each imput is too much. All you have todo is set it up correctly. Here are some things i did that ive always done since using mouse for gaming (mostly FPS's)

In Windows

Mouse Acceleration : I always disable this when playing games that require mouse input, it helps with precision in the long run.
Pointer Speed : I have mine 4 clicks from the last click, this is because my mouse pad is a bit rough, but i like the response it gives.
Enhanced Pointer Precision : I have this on, because my mouse and pad arent too great, and i feel it helps.

In Game

Steer centre reduction : At first its handy with a really twitchy mouse setup, but the lower the better IMHO.
Analogue steer smooth : This helped me alot, it just smooths out the action of turning, i keep mine around 40/45.


Here is a link to the mouse fix : http://koti.mbnet.fi/jaza/tomb4/XPMOUSEFIX.reg
(http://koti.mbnet.fi/jaza/tomb4/XPMOUSEFIX.reg)If any of the moderators feel this link should be removed, then i totally agree.


This beats using keyboard! I got a 1.32.95 on my 5th day playing LFS using a mouse! You need a good set of controls before you get fast:thumb:

Does anyone else use mouse1/2 for accel/brake? That must get so tedious after awhile.

[Takumi_Project.d]

what's this mouse fix?

[NotAnIllusion]

It changes the smoothness of the mouse from Windows settings

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Mouse]
"SmoothMouseXCurve"=hex:00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,a0,00,00,00,00,00, 00,00,40,\
01,00,00,00,00,00,00,80,02,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,05 ,00,00,00,00,00
"SmoothMouseYCurve"=hex:00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,66,a6,02,00,00,00,00, 00,cd,4c,\
05,00,00,00,00,00,a0,99,0a,00,00,00,00,00,38,33,15 ,00,00,00,00,00

[Rooble]

Mouse fix removes the acceleartion that Windows adds to your movements.

NotAnIllusion is partly right, it does smooth it. But it just gives you a more precise imput. Each time you flick your mouse with it ON it will jump across the screen, to make up for the small input. With it OFF it will only move as far as you make it move and not an accelerated guess :)


That's as best as i can explain it. You'd need to test it for yourself!

[deggis]

I'm not a mouse driver but acceleration is pain in the ass on FPS games. I got mine away with "MouseWare Advanced" program.

download: http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/downloads/software/US/EN,CRID=1792,contentid=6034,OSID=1,softwareid=6819

Of course this works only if you are using Logitech mouse and Logitech's MouseWare drivers (I don't know if the SetPoint drivers has this same issue).

[Funnybear]

I started using Analogue steer smoothing, but I just couldn't get it tigether. I've taken it back off again and I'm faster than before . . .

[Rooble]

Funnybear, its probably because you're already so used to racing without it that it feels awkward, it helps for me, i used it alot when i was racing with the XR Turbo, would soften the mad amount of counter-steer i had to put in.

Each to their own or whatever that saying is:shrug:

[Takumi_Project.d]

well i leave acceleration on, also i believe my dead zone is at .8, quite large. it probably isnt vital - just whatever setting you choose, stick with them. i certainly dont feel impaired, i know exactly where the mouse needs to go :)

[Funnybear]

Yep, each to their own. I like trying things out to see if they work or not, but if they don't no biggy.