Current CTRA state

[SamH]

During the closing months of 2008, I examined the possibility of restructuring the CTRA to add a new service layer that would pay for the server, add monthly prizes that would pwn anything offered by anyone to date, and possibly even create something close to a salary for me.

However, despite my best efforts I haven't been able to create a realistic business plan based on the CTRA public server structure. Despite certain angry little claims to the contrary, the fact is that the CTRA as it exists can and will only ever be staffed voluntarily. I have a good deal of experience creating and running start-ups and I've explored every avenue. There is no money in it.

While I'm very proud of the work that I've put in over the last couple of years, originally developing the database backend to support Becky's fantastic X-System, building the CTRA website from the ground up, devising an extremely functional administrative website for report handling, extending the X-System featureset a little and processing multiple thousands of reports, after 2 years I have to report that I'm just about out of steam.

For the past 6 weeks I have been suffering complete burn-out. Not just regarding CTRA but in all aspects of my life. The number of hours per day/week required to keep CTRA at the standard that we set out to achieve became unsustainable. I'm knackered. At this time, the future of the CTRA system is uncertain.

I've discussed the current state of affairs with other members of UKCT and I can report that there is resistance to my suggestion that we close CTRA. Because of that, I am not making any permanent decisions at this point. Keeping a time-intensive LFS project like CTRA running continuously for this amount of time is an achievement in itself, and one that I don't think has been matched by anyone, so regardless of future decisions, I view the CTRA as a definite "win".

I had suggested closing CTRA temporarily, taking a time-out to recharge and to get on top of some of the issues within the X-System that need addressing, rewriting the last of the unstable code, making some optimisations on the MyCTRA website and clearing the backlog of reports. There is also resistence to short-term closing, fearing that the CTRA would lose its appeal and become forgotten - resulting in empty servers when we re-open, and wasting the time and effort spent getting things back on top.

I'm posting this to bring folks up to speed. I'm not really fielding opinions at the moment - you all know I don't apply forum chatter to LFS server decisions anyway - I just wanted to get into a situation where I was up-front with everyone and where everyone who's interested understands what's happening right now. I will do my best to keep people informed as and when the current situation changes, and in what way.

[GreyBull [CHA]]

I'm sad to hear that. :( .Without CTRA LFS wouldn't be the same. I hope that you'll keep it up.:thumbsup:

Is there any way to recrut new moderators btw? I'm sure that a lot of people would done this with pleasure and nicely.

Good luck for your personal future, to UKCT's and to CTRA's one. You've done an astonishing work so far, I would be sad if it'd end like that.

[Fuse5]

Oh well. It was too good to be true. Was fun while it lasted.

And if the people around here really are enthusiastic about LFS, it will be matched. If not beaten.

[Mp3 Astra]

A system like this could only last so long; voluntarily manning suite of 7 servers containing thousands of drivers and reports would always be a tough job and would have always cost a lot of time and money.

I would very much miss CTRA if it went down, even for a little while, and I think that many other drivers would share that sentiment. The statistics say it all.

I would say outsource and get some new volunteers on board, but it's clearly not as simple as finding some helpful people and saying 'hey, come help us, please'. If something is becoming a detriment to your life, then it's best to close it for a while or for good. Or downgrade it so you don't have to do so much work for a while.

Good luck, whatever your plans are; us humble racers can do nothing than thank all of you guys for the massive amount of work you have put in over the last couple of years to bring us award-winning servers time and time again... Long may it continue (if you want).

[N I K I]

As astra said, new volunteers will help a lot, MoE survived huge crisis like that and you guys can too.
Unfortunately I don't have the time nor knowledge needed to help. :shy:

Long live CTRA :bowdown:

[NightShift]

That's very bad news, I can only wonder what pickup racing will turn into in the aftermath of CTRA's demise, was that the only possible solution.

Assuming a worst case scenario, I just want to thank you Sam and all the others for what CTRA has been so far.

Of course I hope it will be possible to set up a soft landing for it, Passo's suggestions sound good to me.

[S14 DRIFT]

Why on earth would you close CTRA?

Doing so would be an incredibily stupid, but since you're not going to take anything we guys have to say, you probably won't even read it. :D

If you're that "knackered out" from running CTRA (although I can't, tbh, see why, maybe I'm missing something :x), how about get some help? Would be the logical thing to do. :)

GL with whatever you do.

[AlienT.]

That's sad news Sam. CTRA or STCC system as it was before is what got me really hooked on sim racing.....so you owe me my life back you barstuard! :tilt:

I understand that the system must take up most of your life mate and for no return to even cover costs is not good.

I can't speak for others but I would certainly be happy to pay something towards the upkeep of what is the best server sytem in LFS, if not sim racing in general.

All the best to you anyway what ever happens :)

[Joris]

Sad to read this but not suprising. The past years must have been quite a sacrifice.

Just keep in mind the CTRA community owes you a lot, not the other way around.

[Jakg]

If you're that "knackered out" from running CTRA (although I can't, tbh, see why, maybe I'm missing something :x), how about get some help? Would be the logical thing to do. :)Sam has done 2,000 reports since CTRA was opened - he also puts a lot of work in updating the websites, sorting out stats, fixing the app etc.

I tried to do some reports the night before last - I put in a few hours and chewed through about 5 - 24 hours later I checked the page and 15 new reports had come through - with Sam down they have been coming in faster than we can get through them...

[Tomson(FIN)]

I can understand your position :shrug: Sadly just hear it now. Was fun while it lasted. Hopefully would last even longer! like s14 drift said, maybe you are just in that situtation, that you just need to call somekind of "outside" help. Im sure that there are some peoples who would be glad to help you :thumb: But lets see what gonna happen.. lets afraid for the worst and hope for the best.

[timurrrr]

Sam & Co,
You did a really great job making and maintaining CTRA X-System. It's a brilliant among other LFS servers/systems. Thank you very much for all the happy hours a lot of people had at CTRA servers!
I hope you'll find a solution to the problem.

I will be really happy to see CTRA in the future because it is the very thing that keeps me racing.

[Jakg]

What would the LFS community think to a weeks downtime, on the condition it comes back online with all reports processed?

[DevilDare]

Good job Sam and others on the system. Its great, i really do hope it stays online in the future, like others said without it racing online on LFS wouldnt be the same :shrug: Good luck!

[bunder9999]

What would the LFS community think to a weeks downtime, on the condition it comes back online with all reports processed?

it would suck, but you gotta do what you gotta do... i'd probably die if ctra disappeared forever though. :(

sam - sorry for being a pain in the ass. :shrug:

[S14 DRIFT]

What would the LFS community think to a weeks downtime, on the condition it comes back online with all reports processed?

Or, how about don't run a system you can't maintain?

No offense, there are PLENTY of trusted users that, I'm sure, would help to admin CTRA servers by doing some of the reports if asked, or if I an application thing was made..

Wouldn't a better idea, surely, be to simply remove the ability to report people for a week while you deal with the backlog? An ever better idea would have been to stay on top of the reports, hiring help if and when you needed it, rather than pretending there wasn't an issue/not bothering to fix it when you guys realised you had a problem..

I couldn't care less for reports... what I couldn care less about was not having a (decent ish) STD racing server.

Since most of the reports come from the busy servers (race1/ufbr) how about you just close them, since then the silver+ STD racers would use race 2 and above would use race 3/combination of the two..

sldsdfbsdjkbfksdjbfjksdb gjksdfg jkf

Excuse me if I see rude in my post, I just couldn't think of any other way to word it..

:hide:

[marzman]

I don't drive arount on CTRA very much anymore, but i've had lot's of fun there. Goodluck with whatever solution you will choose.

I can understand that such a project becomes to much if it doesn't pay the bills and you have to do it all in your spare time.
What would the LFS community think to a weeks downtime, on the condition it comes back online with all reports processed?
If that is your biggest problem, i'm sure you can find volunteers for that. Keeping the servers up and the code running with future updates of LFS was what i was thinking you had trouble with.

[Wilko868]

It's really sad to hear that such a large base for the LFS community is on it's last legs. CTRA has brought clean racing without the hassle of joining leagues etc. We all owe Sam and all the moderators alot for the work they've done for the community

[AlienT.]

Too many reports to deal with, no idea why as I have rarely seen deliberate wreckers on CTRA servers.

I've never reported anyone, apart from reporting myself for being slow :really:.

Maybe people should calm down before sending in reports. It really should be only real wreckers that are reported and not people out for some fun on a pick up server who happen to make a mistake or two or are new.

[Storm_Cloud]

I'm guessing you looked at IRacing and thought if they could make a living off regular subs etc then with 20,000 members paying 50p per month etc etc.

That will never work. You will never, ever be able to run a simple pickup server system and make a living off it. Charge even 1p a month and everyone will disappear to Redline or Conedodgers.

Make CTRA manageable or close it. It's a great facility but probably not worth devoting all your spare time to for no reward.

[S14 DRIFT]

I'd donate, say.. £5-£10 a month... But things would have to change in terms of how CTRA is run...

If it became a "pay to play" thing, if no-one else bothered, I wouldn't either. No point racing the same 5 people...

Just cut down on the bandwidth.. keep the logging thing.. get rid of the report system and get normal admin manning/reporting by PM.. as it could cut down bandwidth..

[Jakg]

Bandwidth or cost isn't the issue - after all the people who pay for the server (i.e. UKCT members) are paying for a dedicated box with pretty much unlimited bandwidth rather than a 500servers dedi or something.

[JohnPenn]

I've been expecting this post since way before Xmas,Really enjoyed my time on the servers, have a break and see how things look.

Many thanks

[niall09]

What would the LFS community think to a weeks downtime, on the condition it comes back online with all reports processed?

Don't get stuck up on all this reporting business. It's only a small element in my view. I have only reported someone once, and that was because he was using a speed hack. Maybe just delete the whole backlog of reports, I'm sure it won't cause any harm.

Seriously, just let the racing flow. Take a break, and come back stronger than ever.

Best of luck with whatever you choose to do :thumb:

[Mackie The Staggie]

If you decide to turn off the system for a few weeks, sure I'll be disappointed, but I can live with it. It was the same when the STCC servers disappeared (different reason I know but the point stand) for a while only to come back better and stronger as the CTRA servers.....sometimes a break can be a good thing.

If you want any volunteers to help with the back log, well it has been offered before, and I'm sure the offer still stands from some. I'll through my hat into the ring also.

[StableX]

If you do close it, pass it over. I can think of quite a few money making ways of adding revenues that will work! Have taken quite a few startups too all the way to float and I have to say with what's in place currently, there are are many ways to earn decent revenue that wont impede on the users that frequent it!

If you can't see ther revenue possibilities ask for help from people that can. There are many very talented people that use CTRA!

[sermilan]

I just want to say that I've enjoyed CTRA for more than a year. You guys have done tremendous job in promoting both LFS itself and some standards in fair racing.
So sad to hear that you've mostly got exhaustion out of it in the end :(

[teedot]

If you do close it, pass it over. I can think of quite a few money making ways of adding revenues that will work! Have taken quite a few startups too all the way to float and I have to say with what's in place currently, there are are many ways to earn decent revenue that wont impede on the users that frequent it!

If you can't see ther revenue possibilities ask for help from people that can. There are many very talented people that use CTRA!

+1

Sam, I have never seen one attempt at asking for some assistance from those who may actually be able to help you... so really... im not surprised about this. :shrug:
It really would be a total waste to let the system die though just because your "Knackered".

As a business owner myself I can say that I am completely knackered with what I do... I don't enjoy it very much .. .but I don't give up on it either!!
Plus, I can think of a bunch of ways that CTRA could be monetized as well.... and same deal.. it wouldn't affect any users... so It seems to me that you have only explored about 10% of your available options.... That's not at all close to "All Avenues" as you have stated.



Just my 2c

[StableX]

+1

Just my 2c

well, that's 2c toward the fund :P

[jbirdaspec]

CTRA and STCC are the reason I found LFS a little over a year ago. I had little sim racing experience prior and this has opened a whole new world for me. I haven't really touched another PC title since. I even sold my Brand New XBOX360 just to keep the dirt off it. Thanks for everything. Truly good times here. This won't stop me from continuing LFS to yet you know. The choice is still up to you guys. Anything that is needed from the community, Please Ask. I've never been involved in anything like UKCT has built here, so I can't judge. If you think your heart isn't in it, shut it down. Better to go with a bang then having it die slow.

Thanks Again and Good Luck.

Jay Odom

[SpikeyMarcoD]

I am still waiting for X2 anyway.......where did that go...seemes like a nkpro patch. ALthough that one eventually came :x

[obsolum]

I'm sorry to hear that keeping the CTRA up and running has affected your health in such a way. If you're really suffering from a complete burn-out you really should take time off. How you do that is up to you. However great the CTRA is, it's not worth risking your health for, which is what this comes down to, ultimately. A burn-out is not something to laugh at, I can relate.

Personally I don't even think I would really notice if the CTRA servers went down; I hardly race there anymore. But it would be a great loss for the LFS community, no doubt about that. It would be a shame letting something that's taken so much blood, sweat and tears to build up and that is so successful just die off.

Would it make life a bit easier on the CTRA staff if the beginner servers were closed temporarily, like S14 said? Keep Race2 and 3 open, and SS2 and 3 as well. Surely that would reduce the number of reports that come in, making it easier to stay on top of things? I can hear all the arguments of "what about the copper/bronze licensed drivers then?! you can't just leave them in the cold?!" Well... sure you can! :shrug: You owe them nothing. Your health comes first. And if it benefits the CTRA system and more importantly its administrators, then that is what should be done. Plus, it may even help populate the Race 2 and SS2 servers again ;)

Whatever decision you make, make sure it's one you've thought long and hard about, and one that will make life easier on you.

Good luck!

[danowat]

Sam, I TOTALLY understand where you are coming from, been there numerous times in the past, and am sure to be there again in the future.

CTRA is a very large "concern", and staffing it, voluntarily, is a big call for anyone.

That said, it would be a very sad day for LFS if CTRA were to close, not that LFS wouldn't continue, it would, however, I would sincerly hope that if it were to close, the devs would someone step in and either take up CTRA, or find someway of producing something similar to CTRA, officially, for LFS.

I personally think there are/must be, ways of making CTRA a viable business concern, just look at iR's model, it works, and I am sure it would work for LFS.

I personally don't use CTRA, and haven't for a long time, however, that doesn't stop be seeing what a blow to LFS it would be were it to go.

[TAYLOR-MANIA]

There is truth in saying that all good things come to an end...

For sure it will be a quite a loss to the pick-up racing community should CTRA come to an end.
It's been a month since i was last on but half of my races have been on the CTRA servers & i've had many enjoyable races, so thanks!
It has served us racers extremely well and it's served LFS well in doing so too.
The people responsible for running & maintaining CTRA should take great satisfaction from what has been accomplished.
I also hope that the CTRA system has now set the standard and will pave the way for a similar, better & hopefully even official system in the future (again, should CTRA come to an end).

[Kristjan.J]

Sad to see such thing, CTRA was the place where I learned to drive and got a lot training in CTRA and have had great times racing on CTRA.
I understand you Sam and if it's best for you then you should do it.
Don't think that CTRA will be forgotten, I bet that servers will fill up more than ever if you're going to re-open.
Good luck.

[GreyBull [CHA]]

Since most of the reports come from the busy servers (race1/ufbr) how about you just close them, since then the silver+ STD racers would use race 2 and above would use race 3/combination of the two..



I totally agree with that. Many newcomers would complain if you do so, and would probably spam this forum with messages full of rage, but for me this could be definitively a good solution. Personnally I've written 7 reports so far, and all comes from entry servers, even if I raced a lot more on higher servers. That shows that CTRA 3 or SS2 could run without being adminned. CTRA could also run with its base of high licensed drivers for months, if you see the current afluence on Race 3.

On the contrary I don't think that paying for CTRA license would be a good solution, as many drivers do race on LFS instead of iRacing because it's cheap. Presonnally I would give maximum 5€/month, and I would probably have some reflexion from my parents if I do that.
And even if we'd have better standards in entry servers, it'd reduce the amount of people racing on the servers. And many of us don't like to drive on empty servers I guess.


But... Anyway, good luck Sam. But don't give it up please. As some other guys said, it wouldn't be an intelligent decision after these months of works on the system.:thumbsup:

[HVS5b]

I can't speak for others but I would certainly be happy to pay something towards the upkeep of what is the best server sytem in LFS, if not sim racing in general.

All the best to you anyway what ever happens :)

Indeed, and thats coming from two tight-ar$ed Scotsmen :razz:

Enjoyed the ride no matter what, I learnt and developed so much on your servers. Thanks.

Chin up Sam, this time of year is usually a bit grim!

[SabersKunk]

Swallow whatever it is that is stopping you asking for help and ask for help already.

[-wes-]

CTRA is an exellent system would be a shame to see it go.

I had no idea you wanted or needed help,I'm sure there are plenty of people from the community willing to help. At the very least we could clear the report backlog.

Removing the abiltiy to report people in crta1 might reduce the workload. Its ment to be a server for new guys to learn. Any high ranked driver going in there should not be expecting perfect driving standards.

[Klouczech]

Im adjective to CTRA racing for a long time. I can abreact here. I will pay forr it, but i understand you Sam. Its hard work! GL!

[The Moose]

Removing the abiltiy to report people in crta1 might reduce the workload. Its ment to be a server for new guys to learn.

Race 1 is the one place that reporting should never be removed from. Educating people to race properly on race 1 is what keeps the standards higher on the other servers.



Lets hope it doesn't come down to closing CTRA, but if it does then that's fully understandable.

I very much doubt it would be a permanent thing. It would give those involved time to recharge their batteries and restructure the things that need looking at to prevent the massive workload and huge backlog of reports happening again.

Whatever the outcome i thank those involved for making CTRA the best public servers in LFS (and possibly sim racing in general). I have no doubt that if it disappears for a few months it will return bigger,better and more populour than ever.

[FOX 1977]

Im sad to hear that Sam... I must agree that LFS wont be the same if CTRA servers and X-Sistem ceased to exist. It just wont be the same "product". It will still be LFS, but without an important online advantage.
Maybe it's time for a small vacations or maybe start considering "sitting down and talk" with the devs and try to find a path. Im sure that they know the proven magnitude of CTRA nowdays and that they wouldn't like their product to lose interess.
But i can be wrong. :D


:razz: My advice: Go out a bit at night, have a laugh, a smoke, a drink, a one night stand...get really laid!! Then sleep alot....wake up, take a hot shower, a good cup of coffe or tea, and send them a email. who know's ....can be your lucky day. :thumb:

Cheers...

[S14 DRIFT]

Swallow whatever it is that is stopping you asking for help and ask for help already.

Direct but effective.

I believe it's called 'pride' :shrug:

[Jakg]

Not really - several non-UKCT members already help with the reports, but I don't think Sam wants to give out admin rights "randomly" - i.e. without knowing someones character.

@S14 - You can be a real tosser about a service you don't even pay for, you know.

[S14 DRIFT]

Sorry Jack, I've already said I'd pay a small monthly fee to support CTRA.

Since Sam doesn't even (and he's said this already) take note of anything we say on the forums anyway, looks like he won't be wanting it... I'd hardly call it a 'service' though.. :really::shrug:

[Jakg]

Service - "work done by one person or group that benefits another"

UKCT made the CTRA app and then hosted the servers and dealt with the reports for the benefit or LFS drivers - sounds like a service to me...?

EDIT - Either way, money isn't gonna fix this, and I don't really want money to be brought into CTRA (at least not in a dodgy "Pay2Race" way R2P did it - adverts might be ok) unless it's a silly amount of cash on a cheque with the name made out to "Jack Green". :P

[dan12s]

Ahhh, Sad to hear this, i hope CTRA will live! it is my life! Also if you need my help in anyway just PM me :thumb:

[S14 DRIFT]

That's what you'd call "running a busy and popular server"...

If you wanted to make a profit out of it, or be on some sort of "upper echolon", maybe you shoulda tried it on a different game where people aren't cheap-skates. :D

[Jakg]

Running a server is a service, no? CTRA does that, and more (which is why it takes more effort than just setting up a Dedi - and why it's so popular).

Profit making was never CTRA's intention - but if it can make profit it might as well when you look at the rediculous amount of hours Sam pours into it

[The Moose]

Running a server is a service, no?

Of course it is Jakg. Best bet, ignore S14. Permanently.

[S14 DRIFT]

It's not like he pays any attention, anyway. :razz:

[Jakg]

I do read your posts, S14 DAFT. :P

[The Moose]

I do read your posts, S14 DAFT. :P

You cant really avoid them these days. ;) I swear he posts in every single thread.

He'll catch your post count by the end of the year at this rate :razz:

[S14 DRIFT]

Daft both by name, and by nature.

Anyway, I'll say it real now.

I don't know what way to put this without it sounding... mean/harsh/rude but it seems like there's some else there.

Maybe it's something else, but yeah. If Sam (a person) is that tired out FROM RUNNING A SERVER FOR AN ONLINE GAME, two things (in my twisted opinion) need to happen.. well, 3, if you want to be like that.

1) Recruit some help. Not doing this would be a completely stupid thing NOT to do.
2) Maybe find a job? It seems like Sam spends all his time doing CTRA, that wouldn't be working (i.e in an office or something). Perhaps that'd be a better thing to spend your time doing... (i.e you're a grown ass man get a job, if you don't have one..:x)
3) Close CTRA unless he doesn't want to find help to run/admin his servers. Why he wouldn't find help is beyond me.

Saying that, making completely irrelevant/baiting posts (like his one towards Becky above) doesn't help him, it's only gunna make (Sam) him more stressed 'cause he's just being a grouchy git about everything..

(which have since been deleted.. suprisingly! :D)
My wierd opinions^.

[Mille Sabords]

4) Grant Platinum racers and above with a yellow ratio under 10-15% admin rights and duties. X reports done per month to maintain their status :)
After all these guys spend their life on CTRA, what about a few report processing hours as well?
Make it a 2 admin mandatory review for the newcomers and you have a nice bunch of "volunteers" cleaning the pile.

[FOX 1977]

You cant really avoid them these days. ;) I swear he posts in every single thread.

He'll catch your post count by the end of the year at this rate :razz:


+1

And btw S14 Drift... who the hell pisses on your cereal everyday? :shrug:
I bet you are nice guy, but damn... the way you show your opinions is soo negative, angry and brutal, that it's starting to make you look like an polemic-maniac or something imo.
Get laid! That's an order! :D

Cheers...

[S14 DRIFT]

Woot! That makes me an admin.. although I don't see that happening.

Although I've said, I often only do 2 or 3 races a night and wouldn't mind cutting out my racing involvement almost completely to help admin... somehow I don't think I'm the right person for the job.. ;)

As I said Fox, I couldn't think of another way to put it.. I've (or I'd like to think) I've been a much more amiable chap recently, unless you'd rather me revert to being like that to every single person in every single thread. :shrug:

I was thinking out loud..

[FOX 1977]

As I said Fox, I couldn't think of another way to put it...

There's allways another way to put it.....just ask my ex's! :D

[Joris]

4) Grant Platinum racers and above with a yellow ratio under 10-15% admin rights and duties. X reports done per month to maintain their status :)
After all these guys spend their life on CTRA, what about a few report processing hours as well?
Make it a 2 admin mandatory review for the newcomers and you have a nice bunch of "volunteers" cleaning the pile.

There many people driving around with sub 10% yellow flag ratio's which are totally ignorant of rules or common sense. I would not mind reviewing some reports myself, but hey, everybody trusts their own opinion.

[modelmotorracing]

Sorry to hear CTRA is having troubled times. I hope it keeps going as it's the first place I look for competitive fun racing most times of day. And I'm still working my way up the licence tree!

Some ideas I had that might alleviate the situation, in no particular order:
a) have "seasons" with a week or two's break every couple of months to give an opportunity to clear any report backlogs, have a break, implement bug fixes / improvements / rule changes etc.
b) try and further automate some aspects of racing that can cause situations that lead to reports, e.g. quickly auto-spectating idle drivers, those who drive the wrong way, those who are overly slow, those who have a blue flag on their screen for more than (n) seconds - if any of these were possible it could ease the reports pressure a bit
c) open the pits later in the race for mid race joiners
d) as others have said, recruit some more assistance for report processing although maybe reducing the possibilities for report situations to occur would make this less necessary

Probably others too. Let's hope it can keep going as it's a very good framework, retaining interest in pick up racing for experienced racers whilst offering a structured introduction to sim racing for newbies.

[StableX]

UKCT made the CTRA app and then hosted the servers and dealt with the reports for the benefit or LFS drivers - sounds like a service to me...?



I think you're missing out the key ingredient here, Becky!

[james12s]

i wasnt gonna get involved in this one but here i go

first of all its something i have seen coming for a while like a few people, and it doesnt suprise me that sam is tired of all the work involved with it, hell many paid jobs are less work, but what happens happens, and if the ctra closes, temperary or permaneant, it will only be because it was nessasary. im not getting to far into the money side of things but what i will say is that donations are surely a possibility and i think would prove to work but it depends.

to stablex: remember when the ctra app was made becky was a member of ukct so jack is intirely correct

[S14 DRIFT]

Becky isn't a member of UKCT anymore, hasn't been for quite a while..

[StableX]

to stablex: remember when the ctra app was made becky was a member of ukct so jack is intirely correct

Becky was still the key ingredient :)

Anyway, back on topic, if you think there isn't a way to earn good money, get people in that are more geared to that so people like Simon can get some money for all the hard work put in!

[james12s]

yes i know s14, somehow i dont think ide miss the fact since i a aukct member myself

what i was saying is that the project was done by ukct and when becky was working on the system she was part of ukct. if she had worked on it while not it the ukct jack would be wrong

stable x: i am not disbuting the fact the becky was one of several key ingredients

[StableX]

stable x: i am not disbuting the fact the becky was one of several key ingredients

yup, I'm not disputing Jack's comment either :) Just saying what a key part Becky was ...... sorry for misunderstanding...

[S14 DRIFT]

Well I'm sorry, I didn't notice.. don't take it personally.

But to take your own theory.. say you're working for a supermarket. While you're at the checkouts one day, no-one's shopping so you're sat there doing nothing.. You come up with an ingenious plan that is of great interest to many people.

You set your idea up and it's all going well. You then leave the supermarket, but the supermarket try to claim credit for what you're doing.. would you let them?

Anyway, this whole thing is offf topic.

Lulz :D

[NightShift]

Not really - several non-UKCT members already help with the reports, but I don't think Sam wants to give out admin rights "randomly" - i.e. without knowing someones character.

That's understandable, but there are so many fine chaps in the LFS community, I find hard to believe there are no more suitable candidates :shrug:

[james12s]

np stable and s14 i totally agree about the supermarket thing lol, all im try to stop is people try to say is that mst the hard work was done by becky, she did do alot of hard work and is an excellent programmer but others have worked equally as hard :)

anyway that tbh is a bit off topic,

and im goning to bed lol cos im fing tired lol

[Becky Rose]

For the record, X-System is an evolution of the STCC Servers which I wrote before joining UKCT, X-System was coded whilst at UKCT, but is infact only the 3rd significant milestone of the server management project. So it's only sort-of right to say I was UKCT at the time I wrote it, I was for some of the time yes but the whole thing was devised and coded before joining the team. I first got close to UKCT when looking for somebody to host the league races, and didn't really spend that much time with UKCT until looking for hosting for the tiered server project.

I wont comment on some of the negative things mentioned earlier or indeed in the deleted post, and I wont give any advise as i'm sure it wont be received well.

Instead i'll keep to the positive and thank some of the postee's for their nice comments and hope you have all enjoyed the servers since they first saw light in, crickey was it 2006 ? I really am terribly with dates, maybe it was '07... Somebody will correct me i'm sure. They sure have lasted a long time and no small part of that was the team of admins working silently and tirelessly in the background. It's sad that that team has broken up and not stayed as a unit. When X launched it was all about being a team effort, but somewhere along the way it's all ended up on the shoulders of 1 man. It's too much for 1 person.

[S14 DRIFT]

Sorry to go off topic, but do you have any idea when your Blue thing is going to be coming out? :D

[obsolum]

Sorry to go off topic, but do you have any idea when your Blue thing is going to be coming out? :D
You're in the same team as Becky, and your team is going to do the beta testing. I think you (SR) will be the first to know :nod:

[CSF]

You're in the same team as Becky, and your team is going to do the beta testing. I think you (SR) will be the first to know :nod:

:really: Wrong [SR], he is in Storm Racing.:)

I can just imagine his joy if he were involved in it though. :D

[obsolum]

Ah, I see. There are way too many similar - or even identical - teamtags :razz:

[Neilser]

Firstly, I have to echo the fine words from others - Sam and the whole team behind CTRA (past and present) have done us all a great service, and I'm very grateful. Most of my last few hundred races have been on CTRA servers.
But burning out because of it is a Bad Thing, so put yourself first Sam.

On the report backlog issue - one suggestion which doesn't seem to have come up in this thread: Wipe The Slate Clean. How about an amnesty for all unprocessed reports?

Someone said in another thread that they would personally delete their old reports if they could, as they felt it was unfair for someone to get hit with a punishment months after the offence, perhaps even after they have become a reformed citizen... I have a lot of sympathy for that approach.

And wiping the slate clean would lift a very large weight off the shoulders of the admin(s)...

It's not a total solution of course, and the ongoing burden may still be too much to bear.

Whatever happens, many many thanks for CTRA, and good luck for the future.

[Gnomie]

Very sad news indeed. During my first year with LFS I did virtually all my racing in the CTRA, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. IMO the system is unique and very well maintained.

I was also curious to see how X2 would play out. From what I've read, it could have pretty much revolutionized the whole LFS experience. It might even have been a model for other sims as well (iRacing for example). Did you ever consider "exporting" your stuff to other sims..? That might bring in some steady income!

[Becky Rose]

Did you ever consider "exporting" your stuff to other sims..? That might bring in some steady income!
Simbin asked me to look at broadcasting with their products and asked what I wanted. I sent them insim.txt

[NightShift]

On the report backlog issue - one suggestion which doesn't seem to have come up in this thread: Wipe The Slate Clean. How about an amnesty for all unprocessed reports?

Of course it didn't pop up, it would mean rewarding those same behaviors which the whole X-System is supposed to fight. If there was a chance to be listened to, I would have said shut Race1 down for as much time it takes to get all the backlog processed. Whoops I shouldn't have said that.

[S14 DRIFT]

:really: Wrong [SR], he is in Storm Racing.:)

I can just imagine his joy if he were involved in it though. :D

I'd be pretty happy, although it wouldn't be orgasmically awesome. :p

[niels1]

Hmmm its a shame if CTRA is going away. This although I dont drive there that often anymore. Due to the CTRA I am where I am now. However saying that the CTRA is developt by UKCT is B.llshit.

I was one off the test people in the days before CTRA went live. We had dialy contact about bugs and things that needed to test out. And it was becky who build the system. All the credits go to her. Off course it has been altered by teh whizzkids from UKCT but never the less, Becky wrote the base of CTRA. You just cant deny that.

Anyway not trying to be a asshole or stir up the pot but ignoring the fact that someone else wrote it is kinda strang to me. :shrug:

[Christofire]

The non-LFS demands on the original team have changed, as life does. The system can't change without compromising the ideals and ways of running the system that have contributed to the success as much as the code and website have. Certain things haven't changed, such as the quality of reports we get in, trying to make the software rock-steady, the whole Becky-was-involved-but-now-isn't-but-still-posts-about-it-all thing that I thought had been put to bed over a year ago but we still hear about it on a regular basis.

In my opinion the system can either be fully automated so that there's no manual involvment on a day-to-day basis or closed. There's no place for a system that needs this amount of unpaid manual work.

If you think you can monetise the system and want to make us an offer so you can put your ideas into practise, send it over to me via PM and we'll discuss details. If you won't put your money up, please don't tell us we should be taking the risk. Somehow, I'm not sure I'll get that many PMs.

Once we get this sorted out we can look to the future, which will hopefully hold a brighter prospect for everyone. :)

[SamH]

niels, you seem to be under the mistaken belief that the CTRA is just one application running on a server. It's far from just that application, it has a massive back-end as well. It's many things working together - databases, web APIs, websites and server hardware. To work, it has always depended on them all working together, and for them all to work together it has always required several different people doing things that they know best how to do.

So you know who you saw doing the front-end bit that connects to LFS during beta testing, and I'm glad for you. What you don't know was who was doing what on the back-end at the time, or in the year and a half since then either. I'm pretty sure that Becky will even admit that at the end of building the X-System, she still couldn't construct a SQL statement on her own. I know times have changed now, but a lot of people in UKCT will and have taken exception to the suggestion they made diddly shit contribution to the X-System.

Anyway not trying to be a asshole or stir up the pot
Failed, niels, big time.

[StableX]

Nobody has said you haven't done a HELL OF A LOT for where CTRA is right now. You need to re-read things if you think that. All that's been said is the concept and the initial work was by Becky...... and acknowledgement for that, there should be!

Here's what you need!!!!

http://www.bloom-design.com/images/horlicks01.jpg

[SamH]

I was specifically referring to niels' post, Andy. When Becky left UKCT and CTRA, the role of project lead moved to me. Becky objected, wanting to remain project lead despite leaving the project, and demanded that her name be removed entirely. We complied.

If Becky had asked to be recognised as the originator of the code or something, we would have complied but that wasn't what Becky demanded. Becky now apparently wants credit again and if that's the case, she can have it. But I won't accept that the whole thing was Becky's work. It's simply not true.

The entire project was the work of Becky and myself, and several UKCT members, including huge help from Dave Thornton-Cousins, Mike Hayward and Alistair Baillie. Becky wrote the InSim application and I devised and created the supporting database backend and the CTRA websites, and many other people did many other things as well, because Becky and I couldn't do it all ourselves.

[Joris]

I somehow have the feeling this thread has peaked in terms of constructiveness.

[niels1]

niels, you seem ...............

Did I say you werent involved or UKCT ?
Did I say that becky was the one and only ?


Hmm I think not, read between lines Sam. I only said regarding to this thread that becky is the one who wrote the base of it. Starting off with STCC and building forward towards the X system. I know about backend etcetra takes a lot of work. Webpages etcerta. Nobody including me said you didnt do nothing. Sure it is a big task. But they were denying here within reading between the lines that becky wasnt invovled.

You need to relax a bit here. Like I said I am where I am today thanks due to the CTRA. I had good times there, some off the best and would be a shame to close it. It seperates the wreckers from the drivers and is the learning school for LFS. But you just cant deny the fact becky has had a strong influence in the system. That just wouldnt be right.

Really Sam I never thought you look at me this way. Dont treat me like a child and stop patronise me.

[SamH]

Okay, niels, then let's recap:

"saying that the CTRA is developt by UKCT is B.llshit"
I'm saying it's not "B.llshit", it's a fact. Am I supposed to agree with you, and insult the UKCT guys this way? No, niels.

"it was becky who build the system"
Actually, there was a whole team of people building the system. Becky wrote the InSim interface, and she did a fantastic job, but "the system" was built by ALL of us.

"All the credits go to her."
No, niels, all credits go to everyone involved in UKCT, including those who just gave us money to pay for the server so that we could keep this up.

"Off course it has been altered by teh whizzkids from UKCT but never the less, Becky wrote the base of CTRA. You just cant deny that."
I've never denied that Becky wrote the X-System insim interface. That would be ridiculous. I removed her from the credits when she demanded it, but now that that is being used as a weapon against me, I'm not impressed. I feel like I've been set up.

I'm not interested in reading between the lines. If you have something to say, bloody well say it. If not, then quit with the cloak and dagger crap because I'm not into that nonsense.

[D.Zanetti]

So no CTRA MRT Challenge? :shy:

I love CTRA, best servers and racing LFS has to offer by far. Would be a shame to see it go.

If the inevitable does happen, id like to thank all involved for providing the best system in sim-racing.

[SamH]

So no CTRA MRT Challenge? :shy:
NEVER say never ;)

[Becky Rose]

Stop this bollocks now. I can see several lies already, here is a clear one.

I was specifically referring to niels' post, Andy. When Becky left UKCT and CTRA, the role of project lead moved to me. Becky objected, wanting to remain project lead despite leaving the project, and demanded that her name be removed entirely. We complied.
I dont know if I didnt come over right, it wasnt easy speaking to you then, but you appear to have missunderstood - how would I be project lead when I didnt even have access to the servers? That's just daft. I think, perhaps, you where being so irrational back then that you failed to understand what I was saying, and perhaps this is my fault for being too emotionally distressed at that time to take the necessary step back and explain myself clearer.

If Becky had asked to be recognised as the originator of the code or something, we would have compliedp
I spent several emails explaining exactly that, to no avail. You seemed to have it in your head at the time that you where no the project lead and I was programmer no #5.

EDIT: I should also point out for the befit of observers, that I too had my nose out of joint and I wont claim to be an angel, far from it as personalities go i've probably spent more time dodging the old bill around here than most of the forum. When I spotted that i'd been demoted to insignificance on the credits contact with Sam at that point was completely hostile so I tried to keep it formal, I sent a cease & desist, not for the system, but for the slander of the credits. I did not handle the situation any better than Sam did at the time. I'd argue that since then I have grown, and I think Sam would accept and indeed frequently boasts he's the most obtuous person in living history.

I've been watching this argument and not getting involved, I wanted to sit it out, but these are outright lies here and i've had enough.

Cut it out: Post your last twisted history and lock the thread as you usually do please. I dont care if you get the last word, i'm not being spoken about like this.

Becky wrote the InSim application and I devised and created the supporting database backend and the CTRA websites
The supporting database used by X-System was devised by me. The supporting tables and fields used by the web site where added to it. Just because I didnt type CREATE table doesnt make it your "invention", ****ing hell man I sent you text fields with field names and var type/size definitions that I wanted...

roflz. This thread is madness, the CTRA attacking their own users... :shrug:

Look, I came up with STCC, then the server control system, I roped you guys in I lead the project I was the visionary behind it and I pulled off stuff that even made you guys, informed as to what was going on as you where, say wow and be suprised. We then rowed, I wont go over that here, and you guys carried on with development ... although development has been light.

What I never did myself was much of the admin work, the guys who did that where fantastic to give so much of themselves for very little credit, most of them still havnt been named publicly, that's real sad in a way, because the X-System by it's end will have had more involvement from them in man hours than anyone else.

"Oh did I forget to mention the guy who did the little web page? Silly me. Not to worry the web page was never a big part of it it's trivial and doesnt really matter somebody I dont like wrote it..." - See what I did there Sam?

Sick, ****ing sick. Swear at me, type some more lies, and lock the thread having had the last word as you usually do.

[SamH]

All I can say is that this is classic "Becky" stuff.

After some pretty foul correspondence following your departure from the project, I did as you demanded.

I must say that I am deeply offended that, amongst your numerous credits, you have assumed "Project Lead".

It might displease you to hear that database grunt and web guy is not usually accredited with being the creative lead on a project.

Whilst I have no problem with not getting credit I find it extremely offensive for somebody to assume credit for something I did.

Remove your false accreditation as the Project Lead. That is not a title you have earned.

[..]

I would rather be removed from the credits completly

FTR, after Becky left the project, I DID take over the role of Project Lead. Ask anyone in UKCT who was leading the project. :shrug:

[The Moose]

How about taking it to PM's. This is turning fu*king ugly and i don't think we want to see it tbh.

It's been bloody obvious for a long time that there is bad blood between you guys. It's very boring watching your public squabbles.

(no offence meant Sam and Becky.... I respect the work you've both done, but fighting about who did what in public is starting to get a bit tiresome.)

[Shotglass]

or in other words... get a room

[SamH]

Nahh, I have absolutely no interest in discussing this stuff here or in PMs. Let Becky say her stuff, those that matter know the facts.

[teedot]

Sam stop twisting the story!

Becky obviously wanted nothing to do with the project or YOU after what you did to her... which is totally understandable considering you basically just STOLE it from her! yes, STOLE it!

Remember when I was developing a small insim app for one of my servers and happened to ask you how to get the player name when a blue flag is waved? You admitted to me that you had no idea how to use the programming language that Becky used to create the X-System... I still have those PM's too... maybe i should post them and refresh your memory? You should rethink what you are saying here and stop acting like a twat!

As far as im concerned ... the only thing you are responsible for is the website.

[SamH]

Okay, thanks for the input teedot. I'm well impressed. I had no idea I stole the X-System. Yowzer.

[SamH]

Thanks to everyone for your input. This thread has, in the end, helped me to make a final decision regarding the CTRA.

Apologies for locking and running but there's absolutely no point in discussing this topic one moment further.