setup in s2 [Archive] - Live for Speed

Lible

24th February 2006, 07:24

Because driting isn't any good. Yes, you need some skill for that, but... what's the point? :shrug:

There is really important things then giving drifters they're setup-options, get yourself a drifting sim (I'm pretty sure some exist?)

EDIT: LFS isn't a RACING simulator, it's an ONLINE simulator :D

BlakjeKaas

24th February 2006, 07:26

if 40 is good, why are 36 degrees not good then...?

it's not that much difference

axus

24th February 2006, 07:27

Let me get this straight? In LFS there is a drag strip so they made it for drifters and they should go out of their way to make the game unrealistic so the drifters are happy? No. Go home.

Scawen has said he would increase steering lock for the cars only if someone showed him a real-life production car with a greater maximum lock. I think that's perfectly fair enough.

Matrixi

24th February 2006, 07:55

Considering all the suspension setup options there are in all the cars in LFS, none of them are even close to production cars. 45 degree lock isn't unrealistic either, it just has to be built in to the car aftermarket. Many real life drifters do this modification to their car to allow higher angles.

In my personal opinion, I think there would be no harm done having more than 36 degrees of lock in LFS. Since the suspension components have been "slightly" updated in the LFS "stock" cars, why not have the steering worked out also?

Another thing that would be nice to have is offset setting (like in S1).

Cue-Ball

24th February 2006, 16:59

While I don't think having 40+* lock would be a bad thing, I would like to see LESS setup options overall (at least on the road cars). The XR GT, GTT, FXO, etc shouldn't have infinitely adjustable suspension since similar real life cars don't. I'd like to see suspension changes limited to only a few different spring rates, rebound rates, final drive ratios, etc. These cars are meant to represent a mostly stock car and you just can't fine tune to the degree that the game currently lets you.

I don't see any harm in modeling an aftermarket steering setup (45* lock) just as we model aftermarket suspension components. But this stuff really does need to be reeled in from the way it currently is.

Vain

24th February 2006, 17:12

I back up Cue-Balls post. All semi-racers I know (who race in semi-professional leagues with race-prepped street cars) use nearly the same suspension for example. There is the street suspension and a finite amount of others, like a cup-version from the manufacturer and 1 or two other aftermarket-versions. This should be reflected in LFS.

Also this will make the process of making setups easier (of course only when the settings we get make sense, not like the default setups we have at the moment).

Vain

Matrixi

24th February 2006, 17:50

Nah, the settings shouldn't be more limited than what they are now. What fun would that be?

You could get parts to your average street car with some efforth to have similar setting possibilities than what we have in LFS. I think the devs should just go all out with the settings, give us more control! We don't want it to be EASIER (majority doesn't atleast).

What I really, really miss in the XRT for example, is having low and high speed compression settings for shocks. In real life, you get those settings in your average coilovers. Since the XRT suspension is already "built" to be very high-end, why not allow this setting?

My $0.02.

tristancliffe

24th February 2006, 18:54

You might get that adjustment on your average coilovers, but:

it'll be a limited number of steps between 'full' and 'least' damping - say 8 steps, maybe 12.
it'll be a shitty damper if they've got adjustable damping on a cheap product, so avoid if you can, and only get adjustable dampers on quality expensive (£200 each AT LEAST) dampers
on cheaper dampers the adjustment isn't meant really for handling tuning, but as wear compensation.

So I think AT THE MOST the road cars should have 8 settings for damping which don't actually do much, and have no numbers next to them. But I think no adjustment is quite realistic :D

Shotglass

24th February 2006, 19:33

Considering all the suspension setup options there are in all the cars in LFS, none of them are even close to production cars. 45 degree lock isn't unrealistic either, it just has to be built in to the car aftermarket. Many real life drifters do this modification to their car to allow higher angles.

agreed but

In my personal opinion, I think there would be no harm done having more than 36 degrees of lock in LFS.

as long as most everybody has a 180° wheel on their desk and not a dfp in 720° mode all 45° of lock does is make coutersteering easier which basically makes the 180° "cheat" even worse

Matrixi

24th February 2006, 19:42

Proper average coilovers start from 1500€ and up. Sure you can get some cheap chinese knock-off replicas for cheaper, but no sane person would buy them. :)

It might actually be a good idea limiting the steps in the suspension settings, if one wants sheer realism. The infinite steps we have in our current setting system is something I don't even think is possible even in real life (perhaps in F1..).

But still, I wouldn't personally be supporting limiting any of the settings that we have now. All I want is freedom to make my setup as purrrfect as it just can be. :thumb:

Shotglass

24th February 2006, 19:50

maybe this could somehow be implemented if we ever get fixed setups for cars ... so the server could force either a fixed setup or limited setup options

and lfs could finally claim its going down the nfs road with the ability to install a infinetly adjustable suspension :)

Matrixi

24th February 2006, 20:00

agreed but as long as most everybody has a 180° wheel on their desk and not a dfp in 720° mode all 45° of lock does is make coutersteering easier which basically makes the 180° "cheat" even worse
Using 720/900 degrees on DFP is everyones personal option. No one forces you to use it if you got DFP. Actually, using 720/900 mode is pretty pointless while drifting, since you will actually have to work with the steering a lot more than you would in a real car. And worst yet, you can not perform some moves with the DFP that you could with real car due to the turning rate slowness of the DFP electric motor. Currently I'm mostly using 540/270 degrees depending on my mood. :)

You can't say that people who are using 180/200/270° wheel would be "cheating" while comparing them to DFP users. What about people using mouses and gamepads? Are they cheating even more? :scratchch

sgt.flippy

24th February 2006, 20:37

Oh shoot me, but I don't care much about setups, personally I would find it more fun, if all cars were the same, and it was all up to the drivers skill. Now it's always like, what setup would that guy have? He's so fast. Without all those setups it would be: wow, that's a good racer. Now you really don't know if he's a good racer, or he just has a perfect (maybe even cheated/exploited) setup? Especially for the road cars, I like to compare these races with a clio cup, or yaris cup, and the basic rule in those races is to all have the same car, that way it's more exciting.

Shotglass

24th February 2006, 20:47

Using 720/900 degrees on DFP is everyones personal option. No one forces you to use it if you got DFP. Actually, using 720/900 mode is pretty pointless while drifting, since you will actually have to work with the steering a lot more than you would in a real car. And worst yet, you can not perform some moves with the DFP that you could with real car due to the turning rate slowness of the DFP electric motor. Currently I'm mostly using 540/270 degrees depending on my mood. :)

You can't say that people who are using 180/200/270° wheel would be "cheating" while comparing them to DFP users. What about people using mouses and gamepads? Are they cheating even more? :scratchch

well i did put it in quotation marks for a reason ... of course its no real cheat
but 180° really makes countersteering a lot easier than in a real car (same goes for mouse ... i use a copperhead at max sens so i can do some crazy coutersteers but four mouse drivers the digital input limitation makes up for this)
and more max lock obviously makes countersteering even easier than it already is with a 180° wheel so on that basis im against it ... not because its a cheat compared to my input settings (my wheel is always set to 720°) but you sort of cheat reality and the whole idea of lfs being a simulator

ponczak

24th February 2006, 23:36

if in set u have 10*-45* lock is good:
always U can driving on 30* lock:thumb:
45* lock > easier drifting > makes my happy
30* lock > more grip driving > makes U happy:D
good idea?

B2B@300

25th February 2006, 00:41

if in set u have 10*-45* lock is good:
always U can driving on 30* lock:thumb:
45* lock > easier drifting > makes my happy
30* lock > more grip driving > makes U happy:D
good idea?

For racing I drive with 16* lock and can even do it well with the min of 9* on most tracks except SO :x :razz: If you need more than 16* lock in racing you've made a serrious mistake :D

deggis

25th February 2006, 22:15

I wonder how the drifters will react when we'll (I hope so) have more limited road car setups. Goodbye drifting? :D

well i did put it in quotation marks for a reason ... of course its no real cheat
but 180° really makes countersteering a lot easier than in a real car (same goes for mouse ... i use a copperhead at max sens so i can do some crazy coutersteers but four mouse drivers the digital input limitation makes up for this)
and more max lock obviously makes countersteering even easier than it already is with a 180° wheel so on that basis im against it ... not because its a cheat compared to my input settings (my wheel is always set to 720°) but you sort of cheat reality and the whole idea of lfs being a simulator
Buy me a DFP so I can stop cheating...

No, seriously. The most ideal situation would be that EVERYONE had a 900 degree wheel, clutch pedal and a shifter. Why should I use the FFShifter that I made because I'm slower with it? It's a pity. Some certain things (like real clutch emulation) in sims is pointless to develope in the future because the fastest (at least easiest) way to drive is using 240 degree wheel / mode with DFP and no shifter or clutch.

ponczak

26th February 2006, 09:19

Goodbye drifting? :D

yea... and goodbye a lot of lfs players [drifters]
:pillepall
please don't kill drift in lfs ;)

Matrixi

26th February 2006, 10:09

I wonder how the drifters will react when we'll (I hope so) have more limited road car setups. Goodbye drifting? :D
Sorry to burst your bubble, but drifting won't end even if the setups would be limited :)

PS. What is it with you and all your anti-drift thing anyway? Some people enjoy racing, some enjoy drifting, some (like me) enjoy them both. No harm done? No need to bitch about it whenever the chance.

geeman1

26th February 2006, 10:30

LRB_Aly

26th February 2006, 11:14

I agree, the setups on road cars most definatly need do be limited.

B2B@300

26th February 2006, 11:59

In my opinion setups should be even more limited than they are now, especially on the road cars. I am somewhat annoyed about the fact that some you can make 'unrealistic' setups which make cars like XFG and FXO behave weird, like oversteer under power etc.

The oversteer on power issue in FWD cars is there with practically any setup (I haven't tried one that doesn't have it from default onwards :shrug: ), my belief is it is a tyre phusics issue not a setup issue :scratchch

geeman1

26th February 2006, 14:16

The oversteer on power issue in FWD cars is there with practically any setup (I haven't tried one that doesn't have it from default onwards :shrug: ), my belief is it is a tyre phusics issue not a setup issue :scratchch
All fast setups have it because it's better. The issue might originate from some small physics bug, but it's the ability to setup the car so much makes it easy to take advantage of the bug.

Bob Smith

26th February 2006, 20:33

B2B@300

27th February 2006, 02:25

Oversteer in FWD on power? I've yet to see this. I got send a setup that supposedly did this, and found plenty of understeer off the throttle, and yes, less understeer under power. But oversteer? No way. Barely neutral.

Perhaps Colcob will analyse slip angles and prove this. ;)

You don't like FWD's :D so you probably haven't driven them enough to find how :razz:

It is more a technique, than anything else, to get the most of this effect... when powering out of a corner in a FWD at the same time gradually straighten the wheels (even if you need more turn angle) and you will find that the car will turn better :shrug:

In other words if you find yourself understeering on power out of a corner simply straighten your wheels slighty and the understeer will disapear :)

mrodgers

27th February 2006, 03:10

You don't like FWD's :D so you probably haven't driven them enough to find how :razz:

It is more a technique, than anything else, to get the most of this effect... when powering out of a corner in a FWD at the same time gradually straighten the wheels (even if you need more turn angle) and you will find that the car will turn better :shrug:

In other words if you find yourself understeering on power out of a corner simply straighten your wheels slighty and the understeer will disapear :)
I wouldn't call that oversteer, it is correcting understeer.

B2B@300

27th February 2006, 03:30

I wouldn't call that oversteer, it is correcting understeer.

I agree it correct technique for correcting understeer but it works a little too well :shrug: not sure though :shy:

axus

27th February 2006, 06:13

You can get any car's arse to slide out of a corner. I've been doing some research on this for a project I'm working on. Here are the equations for slip angles:

http://home.planet.nl/%7Emonstrous/image/ct_alphas.gif

Delta (that reversed 6-like thing) is the steering angle of the wheel and sgn(x) = -1 for x < 0, sgn(x) = 0 for x = 0 and sgn(x) = 1 for x > 1. Omega (that w-esque thing) is angular velocity and b and c are the Forward distance between the Center of Gravity of the car and the wheel (ie. only on the Y axis) like so:

http://home.planet.nl/%7Emonstrous/image/ctwd.jpg

If the slip angles at the back are greater than those at the front, you will get oversteer. I'd say it is a corner entry techniqe where you have quite a low brake balance (ie. more brakes on the rear) and the car enters a corner with slight oversteer. Then using differential settings, you can keep the slight slide maintained for a while using differential settings. You will however find that the sideslip angle of the car:

http://home.planet.nl/%7Emonstrous/image/ctbeta.gif

is decreasing gradually.

Source: http://home.planet.nl/~monstrous/tutcar.html (http://home.planet.nl/%7Emonstrous/tutcar.html)

B2B@300

27th February 2006, 09:39

If the slip angles at the back are greater than those at the front, you will get oversteer. I'd say it is a corner entry techniqe where you have quite a low brake balance (ie. more brakes on the rear) and the car enters a corner with slight oversteer. Then using differential settings, you can keep the slight slide maintained for a while using differential settings.

Not really sure what you are trying to tell us axus :scratchch but the effect I'm talking about is in the last phase of the corner and I also use it to tuck the nose in just before the apex (i.e. apply a little throttle to reduce understeer). I don't get any sliding of the rear that I'm aware of, but the GTi often has the inside rear wheel off the ground just before the appex and mid corner :D.

deggis

1st March 2006, 19:29

PS. What is it with you and all your anti-drift thing anyway? Some people enjoy racing, some enjoy drifting, some (like me) enjoy them both. No harm done? No need to bitch about it whenever the chance.
That "drifting simulation" reputation that LFS kind of has is starting to turn against the game.