a thought on acceleration is it correct?

[lerts]

i was thinking if you start acelerating in the corner 1 tenth of a second before at the end of the straight you have not gained on tenth but maybe a whole second, is this correct

[[DUcK]]

Yeah, it is but maybe not a whole seconds worth. That theory is called 'slow in fast out', which works quite well in under-powered cars, or any car for that matter. You'll definitely gain time though, the earlier you can get full power down the better really.

[S14 DRIFT]

.... What? You couldn't calculate how far you would have gained time wise because of the question "How long is a straight?"

Stop confusing my mind.

[lerts]

i think if my suposition is correct im starting using both pedals cause the time i waste lifting depressing the foot might be draining my times

[[DUcK]]

Yeah, most people in LFS use left foot braking. It's just faster and that's all there is to it :p

[lerts]

well i would never use left foot braking for 2 reasons:

im right footed, having more precision on right foot

i dont want to risk to try to brake with the clutch in real life due to a strong habit

so what i do: acelerate with left foot and brake with right foot

like this i keep having my right foot precision and the only risk i have in real life is try to acelerate with the clutch which represents no risk

[sinbad]

so what i do: acelerate with left foot and brake with right foot

like this i keep having my right foot precision and the only risk i have in real life is try to acelerate with the clutch which represents no risk

That is just bizarre but I guess you're trying to prove you're more logical than the rest of us again or something.

In answer to your first question, it all depends how long the next straight is. Sometimes it is better to just get through the corner in as short a time as possible and to hell with that fraction more exit speed because you're immediately at another corner.

[ATHome]

I think you've got a G25? Where is the problem to use your feet like the way it's been since 80+ years?


I imagine yourself driving with 40 - 60 degree steering lock, accelerating with the brake pedal or the clutch pedal, and braking with the gas. Or you are actually crossing your legs just to brake and accelerate with the "other" foot.

That's just... I don't know a matching word, but stupid is what describes it best. :really:

[lerts]

the thing is that im slower using both feet but with this oposition i think ill keep trying

[mcintyrej]

If you try to learn how to drive with 270 degree lock and left foot braking then you'll be much faster than you are now.

[lerts]

i dont drive with 40º lock for being unique i do it cause i tried all kinds of locks and im faster with high sensitivities, just as some people is faster with mouse and other with wheels

i dont like left foot brake mainly cause im afraid of building such a strong habit that i could try to brake in an emergency with my left foot in the clutch

anyway so you dont say im not listening ill try for a while 180º lock

[[DUcK]]

wheel lock is a personal preference. Personally I use 270 because it's a nice intermediate between sensitive and a good feel for the slides.
Left foot braking is always faster, because you'll have much less coast time, and you're able to blip with your right foot while your left is on the brake.
You won't hit the clutch once you're used to left foot braking. I just leave my left foot resting on the brake at all times.

[Gnomie]

i was thinking if you start acelerating in the corner 1 tenth of a second before at the end of the straight you have not gained on tenth but maybe a whole second, is this correct
As has been said already, you're correct. :)

When doing hotlaps, trying to improve your laptimes, it's sort of intuitive to think that "oh, in order to go faster I should brake later". While it might sound like a good idea, my experience is that the opposite tactic is more often better. That is, go slower into the corner and focus on maintaining the balance of the car so that you can get back on the throttle earlier than normal. You'll gain a lot more by doing it this way than the split second you gain from braking later. :) Plus, you'll have better control of the car throughout the corner, which is crucial for consistency. (which, after all, is arguably more important than anyting in a race!)

[Crashgate3]

If you're slow in (ie, you brake early) you're only slower for a few tens of metres as you brake, but if you're slow out (you brake late), you make up the speed for those few tens of metres before the corner but you're slower for the whole length of the following straight, which has a much bigger effect on your laptime.

[theirishnoob]

;1052511']Yeah, most people in LFS use left foot braking. It's just faster and that's all there is to it :p

cause they havent discoveredthe hell toe technique...

left foot stays over the clutch all day long :scratchch

[[DUcK]]

No, most people can heel and toe in LFS, they choose not to because it's not as fast. Think about the time lost, by swapping your right foot from accelerator to brake, then back to accelerator after. Also you usually lose some brake pressure if you heel and toe by lifting your foot or ankle up and over a bit.

[chanoman315]

well i would never use left foot braking for 2 reasons:

im right footed, having more precision on right foot

i dont want to risk to try to brake with the clutch in real life due to a strong habit

so what i do: acelerate with left foot and brake with right foot

like this i keep having my right foot precision and the only risk i have in real life is try to acelerate with the clutch which represents no risk
Weird, RL and PC arent the same, i just cant believe people that think like that...
I use both for pc and the right irl...

[theirishnoob]

;1053180']No, most people can heel and toe in LFS, they choose not to because it's not as fast. Think about the time lost, by swapping your right foot from accelerator to brake, then back to accelerator after. Also you usually lose some brake pressure if you heel and toe by lifting your foot or ankle up and over a bit.

:|


Nice...

give me a few minutes to wipes the tears of laughter from my eyes then ill respond...


...

Lol... just lol...

[DeKo]

;1053180']No, most people can heel and toe in LFS, they choose not to because it's not as fast. Think about the time lost, by swapping your right foot from accelerator to brake, then back to accelerator after. Also you usually lose some brake pressure if you heel and toe by lifting your foot or ankle up and over a bit.
seriously? you cant be being serious, surely?

H&T is a very good technique, mainly because you're rev-matching as you go down a gear, stopping the wheels locking up, giving the car a lot more stability and control and generally making it faster.

i agree with noob ^^, in all the road cars i right foot brake and throttle and left foot clutch, unless its a special occasion when both at the same time can be useful (entering T1 on SO1r, for example), mainly because left foot braking feels really wrong and i dont have any subtlety in my left foot at all. even in SS cars i right foot brake and my left foot doing bugger all.

to those who drive in real life, ever tried left foot braking? because the clutch pedal is usually heavier than the brake pedal, and im far too used to just putting the clutch pedal to the floor, every time i tried left foot braking for a laugh i nearly put myself through the windscreen.

[Speedy Pro]

seriously? you cant be being serious, surely?

H&T is a very good technique, mainly because you're rev-matching as you go down a gear, stopping the wheels locking up, giving the car a lot more stability and control and generally making it faster.

i agree with noob ^^, in all the road cars i right foot brake and throttle and left foot clutch, unless its a special occasion when both at the same time can be useful (entering T1 on SO1r, for example), mainly because left foot braking feels really wrong and i dont have any subtlety in my left foot at all. even in SS cars i right foot brake and my left foot doing bugger all.

to those who drive in real life, ever tried left foot braking? because the clutch pedal is usually heavier than the brake pedal, and im far too used to just putting the clutch pedal to the floor, every time i tried left foot braking for a laugh i nearly put myself through the windscreen.

What Duck may be referring to is left foot braking with revmatching using a clutch button on a wheel, for example. This way you get the best of both - no foot transition time and no wheel lockup (unless you use too much brake). That's what I tend to do, though admittedly I don't have a clutch pedal (I'd like one), and, more importantly, I'm not fast at all. :shrug:

As far as LFS vs. IRL driving, I don't think this practice affects it much. I don't get to drive much IRL due to a lack of car, but all the cars that I do get to drive occasionally are automatics. So in theory, they'd be perfect for left foot braking, yet I always use the right foot. IMO, the frequency, intensity and braking precision required in most day to day driving is not comparable to what you need in LFS. Couple that to a different driving position, weight of controls, accelerative forces, etc. and your brain shouldn't have a problem transitioning to a rfb setup.

[Zen321]

;1053180']No, most people can heel and toe in LFS, they choose not to because it's not as fast. Think about the time lost, by swapping your right foot from accelerator to brake, then back to accelerator after. Also you usually lose some brake pressure if you heel and toe by lifting your foot or ankle up and over a bit.

Not true.

Just the explanation why :
- Your right foot when driving should press the accelerator with the toes, while the heel is at the bottom of the brakes.
- When braking, you switch your toe to the brake pedal
- Heel-toeing as the standard way
- And out of a corner, instead of swapping the toes again, you release the brakes and start pressing with you right heel, then with your toes
- During the straight, you switch back to position way.

This way you are sur to have NO intereference between your brake pedal and your gas pedal. People I know that brake with the left foot while lifting off tend to release the gas-push the brake in a synchronized motion, that reduces slightly the brake power at the beginning (because you are still accelereting). So, the tenth of a second they gain by not moving the foot is balanced by two tenth when they start braking and there is still some gas.

Also : most of the people who use a wheel brake with their left foot, because most ofthe people that have a wheel only have 2 pedals ;) (I think so)

[Speedy Pro]

Not true.

Just the explanation why :
- Your right foot when driving should press the accelerator with the toes, while the heel is at the bottom of the brakes.


Don't think this is necessary. You can have your right heel at the bottom of the gas pedal, and under braking you just pivot your foot on the heel to put the toes on the brake pedal, while blipping the throttle either with your heel or with the side of your foot (I've seen both). If you look at some of the "driving" shoes by Piloti, Puma, Adidas Goodyear or even driving mocs/loafers (like Tod's), they have the heel curved lengthwise or spherical, so that it's easy to pivot on. Just thought I'd clarify that.

[[DUcK]]

Okay, so you tards are saying that controlling the throttle your right foot, and controlling the brake with your left foot is slower? You can still blip the throttle on the way down the gearbox, you still have the right foot on the throttle. You guys obviously didn't get what I was saying. Besides it's sometimes faster to not rev match or heel toe if that's the only way you know how to say it, because it will get the rear end around a lot faster for tight corners.
We're not talking about real life here, we're talking about LFS.

Compare the two, it's simple:
Driver a uses left foot braking, driver b uses right foot and the heel + toe technique.
Driver a is able to hold on full power before braking, because he does not need to shift his right leg over. Driver b starts braking, he is on maximum pressure for a while, untill he has to change down and heel toe, he loses some brake pressure for a split second. Driver a can hold his foot on the threshold of braking for the whole time, controlling the rev match and anything else with his right foot.
If you can't see how that is faster, then I don't have time to argue with you.

[S14 DRIFT]

It's faster for the better driver, Scotteh. The one who's perfected their technique.

[Shotglass]

to those who drive in real life, ever tried left foot braking?

do it all the time when im bored

and theres a reason why most race drivers use left foot braking in cars where you dont need the clutch... its quicker gives you more control and its what theyre used to from when they were 5 and went from karts to real cars while others got left behind

[sinbad]

to those who drive in real life, ever tried left foot braking? because the clutch pedal is usually heavier than the brake pedal, and im far too used to just putting the clutch pedal to the floor, every time i tried left foot braking for a laugh i nearly put myself through the windscreen.

Yeah it's hard to get the sensitivity, not something to first attempt in heavy traffic!

A lot of newer cars that I have driven cut the power for a few seconds if you so much as brush the brake pedal whilst still on the throttle. Presumably some weird safety measure against clumsy people hitting both pedals in an emergency. Not much fun either though.

[G!NhO]

Lerts is just freaking crazy, left foot on accelerator!!! ffs

[lerts]

oh come on

1st most people dont mind left foot braking cause most people dont block the wheels with maximum pressure applied

if you can block wheels braking with left foot is like shooting penalties with left foot, you just dont have the sensibility to brake on the limit

unless you are left footed that is when it makes sense left foot brake

this is an example how little self thinking there is

if you are left handed would you use your right hand to write just cause everybody does it?

[DeKo]

;1053245']Okay, so you tards are saying that controlling the throttle your right foot, and controlling the brake with your left foot is slower? You can still blip the throttle on the way down the gearbox, you still have the right foot on the throttle. You guys obviously didn't get what I was saying. Besides it's sometimes faster to not rev match or heel toe if that's the only way you know how to say it, because it will get the rear end around a lot faster for tight corners.
We're not talking about real life here, we're talking about LFS.

so what magical 3rd foot is controlling the clutch while your doing all this?

and lerts, i am left handed, write with my left hand, and it has no factor in which foot i use for what.

[Bandit77]

oh come on

1st most people dont mind left foot braking cause most people dont block the wheels with maximum pressure applied

if you can block wheels braking with left foot is like shooting penalties with left foot, you just dont have the sensibility to brake on the limit

unless you are left footed that is when it makes sense left foot brake

this is an example how little self thinking there is

if you are left handed would you use your right hand to write just cause everybody does it?

it's a matter of practice, really. and you can't try it just once with your RL manual and say it doesn't work.
do you think you could clutch with your right foot right away? have you actually been able to clutch smoothly with your LEFT foot right away? so it's not because the right foot is more sensitive. that's just bullocks, really. do it softly first and it'll finally work.

as for LFS / RL confusion with pedals. I don't think this will happen. I used to hit the clutch on my G25 a few times instead of the brake because I was used to left-foot-braking with my cheap 2-pedal-wheel. But the moment I'm in a real car, my brain switches, because it's just soooooo different (as was mentioned). No problem there.

But well, if you've only just begun driving in real life or you haven't yet, it's probably a bit different.

[lerts]

ill be honest though ill be called an idiot

i used to play f1 and brake with a button in the wheel

i was all relaxed driving in rl and on a long no problem straight i found myself searching for a button in the whhel to brake

i recall a guy saying he even tried to press a button to talk with his real pasanger

its just a matter of habits and dont aviation pilots learn with simulation as real as this one

for example thats another reason why i block my wheels with full travel brake pedal to have good habits in rl learn from this simulation

[[DUcK]]

so what magical 3rd foot is controlling the clutch while your doing all this?.

;1053245']...We're not talking about real life here, we're talking about LFS.

You don't need a clutch pedal axis in LFS, as most wheels don't come with them anyway. Paddles and auto clutch are what 99% of the fast guys use in LFS :thumbsup:

[sinbad]

ill be honest though ill be called an idiot

i used to play f1 and brake with a button in the wheel

i was all relaxed driving in rl and on a long no problem straight i found myself searching for a button in the whhel to brake

i recall a guy saying he even tried to press a button to talk with his real pasanger

its just a matter of habits and dont aviation pilots learn with simulation as real as this one

for example thats another reason why i block my wheels with full travel brake pedal to have good habits in rl learn from this simulation

So to avoid picking up bad habits from the game, you decided to reverse the pedals from the way that they will be in every single car you drive in your life?

Your logic is totally flawed.

i dont want to risk to try to brake with the clutch in real life due to a strong habit

so what i do: acelerate with left foot and brake with right foot

like this i keep having my right foot precision and the only risk i have in real life is try to acelerate with the clutch which represents no risk

You use your right foot for the brakes in LFS. This is the foot that controls the throttle in real life! You think it's any better to hit the throttle instead of the brakes than it is to hit the clutch instead of the brakes?

You're just being different for the sake of being different. There is no logic at all to what you're saying. If, however, you genuinely can't differentiate between a game or a go-kart and a real car on the road then I strongly suggest you give up the games or road driving.

[NickC]

I totally agree with duck.

Left foot braking will make you stay on throttle longer. Just practice a bit and you will get the feeling in the left foot quite fast :). I'ts proven to be faster.

In formula renault, we did left foot braking and just blip with your right foot ( seq, powershift ).

Sometimes it's better to not blip to get the rear end a bit loose. For the endurance guys right foot braking is better, thats spares fuel!!

[garph]

ill be honest though ill be called an idiot

i used to play f1 and brake with a button in the wheel

i was all relaxed driving in rl and on a long no problem straight i found myself searching for a button in the whhel to brake

i recall a guy saying he even tried to press a button to talk with his real pasanger

its just a matter of habits and dont aviation pilots learn with simulation as real as this one

for example thats another reason why i block my wheels with full travel brake pedal to have good habits in rl learn from this simulation
Stop either driving in real life or playing racing simulators as you are very real danger on the roads if you really cannot differentiate a driving game and real life.

I have no problem telling the difference between LFS (DFP 2 pedals. Throttle, right foot and brake left foot) and real life (throttle and brake right foot and clutch left). I have never even when really relaxed got confused between the 2.

Like sinbad said, your logic is flawed (like always) and I'm glad you don't endanger my life by being anywhere near me when driving in real life looking for the brake button on your real life car.

[lerts]

man i came with reasons why i like right foot brake youre not discussing any, im glad also to be far from you

ill stick to drive lie rl

actually you dont think by yourself, one brakes fully without blocking the wheels and 99% of people copy it, you just have no personality

[garph]

...forget it.

[tobiasu]

IRL driving...

Röhrl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYv28ctVab8
McRae: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEqOGejlrw

Now what :razz:

[sgb27]

oh come on
if you can block wheels braking with left foot is like shooting penalties with left foot, you just dont have the sensibility to brake on the limit


You could charge millions by teaching that "fact" to most of the F1 drivers!

[Speedy Pro]

IRL driving...

Röhrl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYv28ctVab8
McRae: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEqOGejlrw

Now what :razz:

:razz: yeah, but McRae isn't using the clutch at all, and Rohrl...he's just a friggin' monster behind the wheel. Right foot braking and left foot braking! I want mad skills like that! :tilt:

[Becky Rose]

:razz: yeah, but McRae isn't using the clutch at all, and Rohrl...he's just a friggin' monster behind the wheel. Right foot braking and left foot braking! I want mad skills like that! :tilt:
practice :shrug:. I use whichever foot is most appropriate at any given part of a circuit, to brake. I tend to think of race driving as a bit like riverdance tbh. It does not take much practice to develop sufficient sensitivity with your left foot to start doing it on the roads, just make sure you get the basics of it in a safe place.

I tend to view race cars as a machine designed for purpose. In LFS for instance it is faster to set the drivers side to the inside. For example at Blackwood a RHD car is faster, on Blackwood Reverse a LHD. So i'll switch sides as appropriate. Some drivers cannot adjust to this because they are used to their car and the way they like it, I say drive more different cars and learn the skill of adaption.

@Lerts: As you currently only have one sensitive foot this should ideally be used for throttle, as a general rule you will make more time up by exiting corners well onto a straight with good throttle control than you will by gaining a tenth under braking by cadencing well. In the meentime try working on the sensitivity of your left foot by increasing your braking force sufficiently to force you to cadence brake. You might loose some time initialy, but you will be a better driver at the end of it. In sim racing you have an ideal chance to learn by using autoclutch. Once you've mastered the basics you can goto a manual clutch and start learning the racing drivers river dance.

[evans]

oh come on

1st most people dont mind left foot braking cause most people dont block the wheels with maximum pressure applied

if you can block wheels braking with left foot is like shooting penalties with left foot, you just dont have the sensibility to brake on the limit

unless you are left footed that is when it makes sense left foot brake

this is an example how little self thinking there is

if you are left handed would you use your right hand to write just cause everybody does it?
You're speaking as if being left- or right-footed makes you completely unable to use the other foot for anything but on-off use. This isn't exactly right. As everyone else here said, it is a matter of learning to be sensitive with the foot (or hand for that matter) that you don't usually use. It's a way of "integrating" the various parts of your brain, and I can guarantee you that learning to do so properly will result in better driving.

Besides, you're using your left foot for the clutch - surely that requires some sensitivity in your left foot? ;)

[S14 DRIFT]

Why do people bother even explaining things to lerts when he obviously (and from past experience) won't heed a damn word of it? :confused:

[Becky Rose]

Why do people bother even explaining things to lerts when he obviously (and from past experience) won't heed a damn word of it? :confused:
So if anyone in the future finds the post on search they can find an answer, along with lerts' interpretation of said answer admittedly, but it's the best way we've found to help the next generation of sim racers to at least leave them something of use !

[S14 DRIFT]

Ahh I see. :razz:

[NightShift]

In LFS for instance it is faster to set the drivers side to the inside.

Or maybe just switch to chase view, use button clutch instead of a pedal, rely on paddles, 240 degrees lock, whatever, just for the sake of speed.

Who cares if it's realistic or not? It's not like LFS is a simulator striving to achieve the best possible realism...

And eventually somebody end up using cheats in league racing. If time is all we should care why don't go back to playing some arcade game, that would be less pretentious :shrug:

Not meaning to bash you Becky, that bit of a quote is sort of a final point in a discussion which is drifting away, and I'm using it to make a more general statement.

[Becky Rose]

Or maybe just switch to chase view, use button clutch instead of a pedal, rely on paddles, 240 degrees lock, whatever, just for the sake of speed.

Who cares if it's realistic or not? It's not like LFS is a simulator striving to achieve the best possible realism...

And eventually somebody end up using cheats in league racing. If time is all we should care why don't go back to playing some arcade game, that would be less pretentious :shrug:

Not meaning to bash you Becky, that bit of a quote is sort of a final point in a discussion which is drifting away, and I'm using it to make a more general statement.
A racing machine is a built for purpose machine. Any advantage that can be taken in racing can and should be taken. The placement of a driver in a race car is a critical design decision. In sim racing, due to the interface given to us by the developers of LFS, and the non-fixed nature of the drivers side in the specific vehicles, we have the ability to change the drivers side prior to 'attending a race event'.

In much the same way as many race teams make lots of modifications to cars for given events. Extra winglets in single seaters, or in touring cars if you think that ballast doesnt move about on a race car depending on the circuit being raced, then take a look at the ballast placement slider in the setup screen. The driver is a significant piece of ballast, and the drivers position is not a fixed value in many of the cars featured in LFS.

Any driver with the ability to adapt to driving on either side of the car should take the opportunity to do so. If you dont have this capability you should be considering the merits versus effort reward ratio of doing so. It's about 0.5 seconds a lap at some car/track combo's.

I think you need to step back from your idealism far enough to realise that race cars are not a fixed and static design, they evolve over the course of a season in every series from club level to international.

[tristancliffe]

race cars are not a fixed and static design, they evolve over the course of a season in every series from club level to international.Sadly, I find my wallet evolves slightly faster, in a negative way.

[NightShift]

I think you need to step back from your idealism far enough to realise that race cars are not a fixed and static design

Never thought they would be, though it's quite obvious you can't switch sides that easily IRL even if the car is designed to allow both versions to be manufactured (and some cars are only designed for RHD anyway).

I guess that's one of the reasons many race and trackday car designs opt for a central seating position, but that's not the case with about half of the cars in LFS.

That said, the bit about RHD vs LHD is not particularly important ATM, what I'm thinking about is a system of payoffs which will make natural for players to choose the most realistic attitude given a certain situation.

E.g. Improved simulation of suspension damage would constitute a payoff system which greatly rewards drivers who choose not to cut curbs on Fern Bay curbs at 150+ kph.

You would call that idealism?

[Becky Rose]

Sadly, I find my wallet evolves slightly faster, in a negative way.
awww ain't that the truth, still it's better than ... watching a rocket launch.

You would call that idealism?
No, I would call it a different forum thread :P

[STF]

ill stick to drive like rl

Isn`t that negated by the fact you`re not using 1080 degrees of steering, like IRL?
Or at least match lock-to-lock degrees the(current) car is capable of.. ? http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/65.gif
I would also say IRL, LFB is not as hard as you may think. It all depends on the amount of time(and gas:razz:) you dedicate for practice.. Starting slow also helps, but slow is slower than you think. I once asked a friend of mine, to try and brake with his left foot, VERY gently. Good i was wearing the seatbelt..:schwitz:

[legoflamb]

On the contrary to the argument that one might mistake pedals. A competent driver won't easily make the mistake of confusing pedals. If the person driving is not competent, then they should probably not be on the race track at all.

Especially when left foot braking in cars with out a clutch less shift mechanism, its hard to confuse the pedals because the driver has to constantly switch pedals.

Also, for cars that use clutch less shift, knowing the position of the pedals in what ever car that is currently being driven is second nature in competent drivers. It's like knowing where your mouth is when you put a cup to your face to drink, or a fork when you eat. On that note, switching back to a regular manual car is not a problem for competent drivers.

[Glenn67]

For example at Blackwood a RHD car is faster, on Blackwood Reverse a LHD. So i'll switch sides as appropriate.

Not always the case :p sometimes in the LFS world of physics and setup choices the opposite is the fastest...

[tinvek]

as has been said, you tend to automatically adapt to where you are, i tend to left foot brake when im driving an automatic in real life but if im driving a manual i right foot brake and nevr get confused about it.

before anyone asks, i got in the habit of doing it when i had a garage as there was nothing worse than trying to manuver an auto that either wouldn't idle and died if you take your foot off the throttle or had a very high idle and wanted to dissapear through the wall if you put it in gear.

also the late great LJK Setright pointed out that one of the biggest advantages of an auto is that in a car where you right foot brake the first thing you do when wanting to slow is in fact just to stop accelerating as you move your foot to the brake pedal where as when left foot braking, you can apply the brakes as your removing preasure from the throttle.

one other advantage is of course that you can use the brakes whilst accelerating to tame wheel spin or understeer which is why it was used in rallying even with gearchanges that neded a clutch.

[tinvek]

just a quick extra thought, if lertz is scared he'll left foot brake in real life and press the clutch, doesn't the same logic mean that he'll expect a car in real life to respond like it's only got 40 degree steering movement and go straight into something because he hasn't turned the wheel far enough ?

[[DUcK]]

Now that's a scary thought :D

[J.B.]

i was thinking if you start acelerating in the corner 1 tenth of a second before at the end of the straight you have not gained on tenth but maybe a whole second, is this correct

No. Why should it be like that? If two identical cars accelerate from the same line, with a one second head start for one car, why would one expect the time difference to change by the time they reach the end of the straight?

[tristancliffe]

But if they accelerate from the same line, one with a head stand and an initial speed advantage then the gain difference at the end will be more than the head start.

e.g. Car one at line at t=0 and V=60
Car two at line at t=0.5 and V=58 (i.e. the first car got on the power earlier, possibly from an initially lower speed and is therefore faster at corner exit, where the line is).

At the finish line some distance further on it might be something like:

Car 1: t=15 V=150
Car 2: t=17 V=149

And so, by going slower INTO the corner but faster OUT of the corner car one is ultimately quicker.

Does that make sense? Numbers picked from thin air of course, but prove the point.

[Becky Rose]

Absolutely, it's the first thing I teach when my friends come to me for tips for karting days. It's a rudimentary concept that 0.1mph faster out of the corner is 0.1mph faster right up until you come off the throttle, the cumulative effect of being that little bit faster for a sustained period of time translates to a net gain substantially more than what is gained by being 0.1mph faster into a corner, except when doing so keeps a position.

[Bandit77]

...but prove the point.

ILLUSTRATE the point...


Actually we have to be precise here. If you do a drag race with two identical cars that accelerate identically but one starts half a second later, the time difference will always be half a second, while the distance grows until both cars reach topspeed.

"Being earlier on the gas" on a circuit isn't quite the same. It's earlier in the meaning of "a few inches or feet earlier", which then leads to a higher corner-exit-speed, less time needed for the following straight and therefore a time difference to the car that accelerated "later".

[S14 DRIFT]

If you have a higher exit speed at any given corner, it is certain that (as long as you are in cars that accelerate at the same rate) you will arrive at the next corner before someone who had a lower exit speed. :shrug:

[J.B.]

But if they accelerate from the same line, one with a head stand and an initial speed advantage then the gain difference at the end will be more than the head start.

e.g. Car one at line at t=0 and V=60
Car two at line at t=0.5 and V=58 (i.e. the first car got on the power earlier, possibly from an initially lower speed and is therefore faster at corner exit, where the line is).

At the finish line some distance further on it might be something like:

Car 1: t=15 V=150
Car 2: t=17 V=149

And so, by going slower INTO the corner but faster OUT of the corner car one is ultimately quicker.

Does that make sense? Numbers picked from thin air of course, but prove the point.

Well the simplest cornering model I can come up with is that two cars are absolutely identical, in speed and position, at the apex of a corner, and then one car fully accelerates while the other car will first continue at the apex speed for 0.1 s and the accelerate.

In this case the second car will actually be less then 0.1 s behind the first car when they reach the end of the straight. This is because, compared to the pure drag racing example, the second car is actually moving and shortening the length of the following straight instead of just waiting.

The way I see it, the most you're going to get out of accelerating earlier is a time advantage that is exactly the amount of time that you started accelerating earlier. To get a time gap that increases along the straight you need to accelerate better than the other car i.e. go from zero to full throttle faster.

[lerts]

if you acelerate 1 tenth before youll go all time with 1 kph faster

so tthe diference would be the time that lasts the staright going at 1 kph while the other go at 0 kph

thats how i see it

[Chrisuu01]

if you acelerate 1 tenth before youll go all time with 1 kph faster

so tthe diference would be the time that lasts the staright going at 1 kph while the other go at 0 kph

thats how i see it

WHy the hell would you go 1kph??

[sinbad]

It isn't about the moment at which drivers hit the throttle alone, it's about maximising the length of the straights and being on full throttle for a longer distance.

The drag racer comment by bandit 77 is of course correct but it doesn't work like that on the track, as he says.

A way to relate that to the corner to corner thing we see on the track is to imagine one of those drag racers (car B) starting the drag race 20 yards further back from the line, but the other guy (car A) cannot leave the line until car B is halfway towards it (10 yards still behind it). Let's assume slow cars so it's easier to envisage.

Because the length of the "race" is different for the two cars and they left at different times, the time gap between them will not stay the same even if acceleration curves are identical, and who wins the race depends on where you put the finish line, the further away it is the more chance car B has of winning. The time gap would actually only full stabilise once both cars have reached their maximum speed (assuming equal cars).

This is how slow-in, fast-out works. Instead of a start line being further back, your slowest point of the corner is further back. Its value is completely determined by the ratio of sacrifice to reward at a particular section.

[G!NhO]

WHy the hell would you go 1kph??

he means that if you put the gas on earlier in the corner you will gain more speed out of the corner and so you might go 1kph faster on the straight :)

[NickC]

I'ts not only the point of throttle. I can go 10 meters earlier full throttle and still loose time at the end. If the horizontal forces are much bigger then if i go 10 meters later on throttle the car wont accelerate fast.

I can post some data from my Formula Renault at Spa if anyone finds that interesting.

[Chrisuu01]

he means that if you put the gas on earlier in the corner you will gain more speed out of the corner and so you might go 1kph faster on the straight :)


Lol like that makes a difference :D

[[DUcK]]

Do it. What datalogger do you use?

[Bandit77]

what you wrote

I totally agree.

We can also picture the moment when both cars are at the same point on the track in sinbad's example:

Car B will travel at a higher speed at this point, in this moment. So provided the cars are absolutely identical in acceleration and topspeed, car B will pass by and will 'never' catch it again.

[NickC]

This is just a picture to confirm what i just wrote. Taken 2 random laps from a free practice at SPA last year.


Note= Blue engine had some small problems, but the point stays the same

http://img3.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/3366/336659379d1ff01d7078f1a9d7209295ed310c4.jpg

We used AIM btw, but i don''t know what i'll be using this year. Since im going to race something else

[sinbad]

I'ts not only the point of throttle. I can go 10 meters earlier full throttle and still loose time at the end. If the horizontal forces are much bigger then if i go 10 meters later on throttle the car wont accelerate fast.

I can post some data from my Formula Renault at Spa if anyone finds that interesting.


Well I think we take it as read that you only accelerate as early as is possible, not so early that you do not accelerate properly because you are turning too tightly or because you need to lift again- Full throttle only being valuable if it actually accelerates the car. Perhaps I should have used the phrase "at maximum acceleration" rather than on full throttle.

[NickC]

But it's really hard to feel ( you wont feel it at all :P ) this in a sim, when or whether you are TO early on the throttle. It's not only with full throttle. Like the last corner on Classic rev, sometimes if you are a bit to early the car tends to understeer outside a bit. So it's better the wait a bit.

[sinbad]

But it's really hard to feel ( you wont feel it at all :P ) this in a sim, when or whether you are TO early on the throttle. It's not only with full throttle. Like the last corner on Classic rev, sometimes if you are a bit to early the car tends to understeer outside a bit. So it's better the wait a bit.

I think you've missed the point of the thread (or at least the argument within). It's about the value of slow-in, fast-out, the choice of line through a corner, not about when is the best moment to open the throttle which is always simply "as soon as opening the throttle is faster than not opening the throttle".

[NickC]

Oké

Slow in fast out works better then fast in slow out. But i always try go fast in - fast out ;) .

"as soon as opening the throttle is faster than not opening the throttle".

If only this was so easy!! how do you know when exactly? It's harder then you make it sound