To improve LFS

[tristancliffe]

Hi

I noticed in an interview with Scawen that he said one day it would be nice to test LFS on a real track (i.e. have a real track in the game). This way, the LFS cars can be tested to see if they produce reasonably accurate (for the type/power etc for the cars) laptimes. Obviously a further test would be to model a real car on a real track, but with LFS's physics.

Obviously a real track cannot be released commercially without licencing it first. Hell, even a community release is technically illegal I believe (note to modders after S3). But what if the real track(s) never got released?

Therefore my question(s) are as follows:

Is it possible for Eric to convert tracks to the LFS format?
Is it possible for 'someone' to get a known realistic version of a track from another game (Nurburgring on GT4 springs to mind as the most realistic probably) and convert into a format with which Eric can work with?

I am not this clever, so I have no idea if extracting the track data from a PS2 game, and inserting it into the development version of LFS is even possible, hence the post.

If this is 'technically' possible, then do we think it would be a good idea? Whilst initially at least we never get to drive on Nurby, we would be able to reap the benefits of a proven physics system. And the devs wouldn't need to pay anything, because they wouldn't officially ever have the track?!?!?

I'm not 100% sure I've made myself very clear, but I'm sure one or two of you will understand what I mean.

A reply from the devs, eventaully, would be appreciated, but I'm sure you want to wait to see what the community response is first.

[dUmAsS]

any game that uses gps will work great for this (gp4)

but wouldnt having s2 full be better then watching the devs drive a real track? ;)

[XCNuse]

rereading my GT4 user manual and box..

and.. i havent read anything about converting or use of something .. at all besides the copyright and trademarks

so.. unless somewhere on the game .. ah; all rights reserved.. neeeevermind
guess that keeps anyone from taking something of theres.. and using it on anything else publically or not (not exactly big on law or anything so .. if anyone can tell me what exactly all rights reserved means.. then please do so; not sure if its reserved to the company; or to the owner of the game)

[Bob Smith]

It's an idea certainly. But wouldn't it work best with a real car to go with it?

[tristancliffe]

XCNuse - I know it's not allowed. But surely if the devs kept it to themselves, and it required an extra password or check to unlock it (in case it got leaked), then no-one would ever know if the devs had it. There would be no release, no profit made, or anything like that.

Bob - we do have real cars! I don't know if the RA has done any laps of Nurby though. Or an MRT type car. But perhaps making a real car in LFS wouldn't be too hard. Again, not released, and kept quiet, so that no-one knows they are breaking laws.

For all I know, the devs could have done this already, and could be driving around Spa in real GTR cars in their development version.

From the MSN's I'm getting, a lot of people don't seem to be realising quite what I mean. I know it's not allowed. And I know we can't use it. And I know mountain passes, and other 'types' of tracks might be better in many ways. But I'm talking about the devs being able to compare LFS to real life without the cost of legally licencing a track. The only way to do this is to use the LFS 'engine' on a real track/car combination and compare the lap times/sector times/apex speeds/braking distances etc.

The devs COULD pay for this, and then release it. But I don't think LFS is big enough yet to afford that (no offence intended). This way we'd get that for FREE (but they would have to keep it reasonably quiet...)

[pb32000]

In which case it probably shouldn't be advertised around the official forums too much. :x

I'm sorry to say I don't its possible - to use a track from another game WOULD require license fees, and if we're talking taking from say GT4 the fees I imagine would be huge. An alternative is for Eric to model the track himself but that would be another large amount of work, although the license fees I would presume would be lower. I don't know who they'd have to pay, the track owner I suppose.

Well those are my thoughts, nice idea but in reality I think not at this stage in the game, maybe not ever.

[BlackSpider]

Not totally sure, but I think it can be considered illegal to suggest. Conspiring to commit piracy and/or breach of copyright. Of course, I'm not a law graduate, just a hobbyist :D

[dUmAsS]

to license a track your looking at 5 or 6 (mabey more) figure sums

[tristancliffe]

In which case it probably shouldn't be advertised around the official forums too much. :x

I'm sorry to say I don't its possible - to use a track from another game WOULD require license fees, and if we're talking taking from say GT4 the fees I imagine would be huge. An alternative is for Eric to model the track himself but that would be another large amount of work, although the license fees I would presume would be lower. I don't know who they'd have to pay, the track owner I suppose.

Well those are my thoughts, nice idea but in reality I think not at this stage in the game, maybe not ever.

But people use tracks from other games in other games all the time. Lots of ports of Nurburgring from GPL for nearly every other racing game.

So whats the difference. If, say, Eric puts the GT4 version of Nurby into LFS, but does not use it for commercial gain, then he is being no more illegal then anyone else who uses ported version of tracks in other games.

[Tege]

I don't know if the RA has done any laps of Nurby though.
Actually it has. No timed laps or anything like that and I think it was the 2000 version.

[pb32000]

But people use tracks from other games in other games all the time. Lots of ports of Nurburgring from GPL for nearly every other racing game.

So whats the difference. If, say, Eric puts the GT4 version of Nurby into LFS, but does not use it for commercial gain, then he is being no more illegal then anyone else who uses ported version of tracks in other games.

Yer I don't really have an answer for that othen than I suppose you're right. Best to keep it quiet though surely :scared:

[Boris Lozac]

It would be great if Eric could do Spa, or Nurbugring in the feature.. and don't call them like that, but call them trackX, and trackY, is that illegal? If the track is looking like the real one, but the name is fake..?
BUT, i am not forcing anything, i wouldn't want Eric to think that i am ungreatfull for his tracks, because THEY ARE AWESOME!! and better then most real tracks.. but, eventually, after all is done for LFS.. it would be better to Eric creat addon tracks, then some unknown guy.. I don't like the idea of people creating tracks/cars for LFS.. I like LFS the way it is, i don't it to become Rfactor, F1challenge.. i hate mods, and addons, i don't know why..

[bobvanvliet]

It would be great if Eric could do Spa, or Nurbugring in the feature.. and don't call them like that, but call them trackX, and trackY, is that illegal? If the track is looking like the real one, but the name is fake..?
Yes. :tilt:

But if the devs had a legal copy of the game they were extracting a track from for personal use, i don't see how that could be illegal. And if it could be done easily, I think it would be a good idea for testing the physics.

[Bob Smith]

Yeah, personal, not profitable use. It should be OK.

We could always pay license fees but it would probably be cheaper to build a real life Aston. OOooooh yes. :D

[the_angry_angel]

How do we know, that they havent already done this, and Scawen was just trying to throw potential lawsuits off the scent..... :detective

[Huru-aito]

Just to compare laptimes / performance / whatever between LFS and real life the Nordschleife wouldn't be the best choice I think, since the track is so complex and long. I know there's data of RA on at least one Finnish racetrack that isn't very complex - having that track in LFS would be better for comparisons sake (S/E/V wouldn't need to spend half a year practicing the track haha)..

Some of the most popular tracks can be very expensive to have in LFS, but I would think that smaller, club level circuits would be a lot cheaper if not free.

Replicating a track would be hard though, if you really would need if for LFS & real life comparison, since it's not just the shape & elevations but the tarmac properties, small bumps, curb shapes etc. Then you'd need to fine tune these by comparing laptimes and other data, but you wouldn't know which one is more off, the car or the track :)

Don't get me wrong, I sure would like some real tracks in LFS, I just can't see it happening.

[XCNuse]

no one ever said they would do just one test Huru; laptimes are the least of their worries; its how the car handles in the turns, not how fast it goes around them

but thats what i figured; if you own and payed for it.. im pretty positive its legal to do whatever you want as long as its for personal use only

[pb32000]

It's a tricky one, I'm just reading the back of **my brother's** NFSU2 box and it says "Unauthorized copying, reverse engineering... is strictly prohibited". Mind you that is EA speak :p I assume the copying doesn't just apply to the entire game but if extracted, individual parts.

[tristancliffe]

Altering any aspect, or extracting any aspect of any game for use somewhere else is illegal. All the GPL Nurburgring ports are, technically, illegal. Most of F1C's mods are illegal.

My suggestion for using Nurby was because it's the most accurate reproduction so far. GP4 claimed to have GPS mapped tracks, but then GPS was only accurate (for civvies) to about 10m, so that just means the track is accurate to +-10m big deal. I think the accuracy of the new one was supposed to be 1cm (which is obvious b*****ks), so is probably about 1m, or even 50cm. Thats good enough for me.

However, until mods are allowed and encouraged (illegal or not) in LFS, then WE wouldn't get to see the test track, be it Fiorano, Nurburgring, Spa, Suzuka, Monaco etc.

What I want to know is NOT whether it's legal/illegal/frowned upon, but whether it's TECHNICALLY possible to extract the track from GT4 (or another real-life and particularly accurate track from another game) [this bit needs the community answer I guess], and whether Eric can import that [i.e. do the LFS dev tools allow importing of data, or would he have to copy it manually?]?

[BlackSpider]

Personally, I think there is a better option. Instead of 'ripping' the information out of one piece of software, and converting it to use with another piece, simply re-write the information. You could probably create a 3d repr of a race-track in a few days, given the right information (measurements). You wouldn't have to re-create every element (trees, bridges, grass color, or any textures for that matter). Doing it this way, you would avoid having EA or some such on your arse for ripping content from their software.

That at least one less law suit to worry about ;)

---

And if you really skirted around the rules and laws, you could no doubt create subtle but definate differences between Track.I.Made and Real.Monaco, and say 'Hmm. They're simliar, sure, but they aren't the same track'.

No license fee induced. Much the same way you could create a Lotus Esprit for LFS, and call it a 'LZR-200', make a few subtle changes to the look/style of it, and you have no law suit.

[Michel 4AGE]

AFAIK a game called "Racer" has a Nordschleife-mod too. I think it's data came from GPS and it's damn sweet & accurate. And this game is made by 1 person. I'm too lazy to find more info about it but I'm sure you can Tristan :)

[XCNuse]

PB.. were talking about GT4; not NFSU.. nfsu has no real tracks; thats completely different there.. dont go off topic

@michel.. i dont know; i tried it.. didnt know track that well, but iirc i dont think it was all to accurate

..anyone up for GPL? :D
there is a number of nurbs that you can download for GPL at no cost
..nvm.. someone already said its "illegal"

if one of the devs has GPL.. then it wouldnt though
but then again; im sure the nurb in gpl is fairly inaccurate


and AFAIK.. i havent heard any word from anyone that has been able to extract anything from GT4 (including even the music)

[tristancliffe]

Wasn't the racer Nurby a rip of the GPL one. It was when I used to play Racer (and I have a video of my friend playing it on my PC whilst wearing a helmet, at the Nurby in an F3000 car).

[ButterTyres]

Sony would have them dragged over hot coals, they are very protective of their intellectual property. Plus LFS is a rival to GT4 and that would fuel the fire.

Just my 2pence :P

[Bob Smith]

LFS vs. GT4? Only Sony would think there's even competition.

[Gunn]

LFS vs. GT4? Only Sony would think there's even competition.Agreed. There's a lot more to making a simulator than just printing the word on the retail packaging.

[XCNuse]

Sony would have them dragged over hot coals, they are very protective of their intellectual property. Plus LFS is a rival to GT4 and that would fuel the fire.

Just my 2pence :P

if they are so protective... then they wouldnt sell the game to the public..

its like.. buying a car, if you BUY it.. you can do whatever you want.. same with all games you BUY.. some have regulations; but all pertain to releasing to the public.. quite honestly im pretty sure they dont care what you do with it.. just as long as you give them money

[hrtburnout]

Convert a track from Racer - FREE car simulation. You could just ask the author for permission?

[BlackSpider]

if they are so protective... then they wouldnt sell the game to the public..

its like.. buying a car, if you BUY it.. you can do whatever you want.. same with all games you BUY.. some have regulations; but all pertain to releasing to the public.. quite honestly im pretty sure they dont care what you do with it.. just as long as you give them money

Actually, that's totally incorrect, I'm afraid. You have the permission of the author/producer to use the software, you do not 'own' the software. The people who make it are the owners, you're just an end-user. Never read the EULA that come with games?

[L(Oo)ney]

Never read the EULA that come with games?

Does anyone? :tilt:

[BlackSpider]

Yes, I do. Reason? Ever heard of a game called 'Fire&Ice' on the Amiga? I don't recall who made it. They had a EULA on the discs that came it came on. One part said something to the effect of: "The publisher of the software states that failure to say 'WhoWillyWolly' will result in the legal ownership of the running machine to be transfered to the publisher".

Unfortunately, had they been serious, they would have had *legal* grounding to sieze control of many Amigas. Sad, really, but an unfortunate truth. Also, rumours of Windows 3.11 (For Workgroups) EULA containing a section relating to shoes. Publishers have humour, but a publisher who's humour is a little *too* serious can actually result in legal battles.

EULA's are there for a reason. Not reading them is no excuse if you get burned. ;)

(By the way... I always add 'Failure to read this will result in ten cows dying on your front lawn from some bizare illness' to the EULA/agreement/disclaimer of my software.... You've been warned!)

[RAYfighter]

Talking about licences and law, do devs know about the image used for this Siemens game computers banner?

http://www.fujitsu-siemens-b2c.de/fsc_b2c/catalog/special17.service?part=catalog&kid=16035onlban1

Another even more apparent AI driving GT screenshot was used for a banner I clicked to get there. :trampolin

[XCNuse]

because so far i havent found anymore than what the back of the box says.. no EULA that i've found.... anywhere; unless its on the game itself

but what you've said makes since

about racer... dude.. that track was converted from GPL; technically its not "legal" and ontop of that; im sure its not nearly as correct as GT4 is

[Michel 4AGE]

http://luuk.xs4all.nl/

Scroll down, you'll see

[XCNuse]

soooo its not free; its from SCGT

Full conversion of the SCGT version from GEETi

..unless one of them happens to own SCGT (never even heard of such a game :S)

[pb32000]

PB.. were talking about GT4; not NFSU.. nfsu has no real tracks; thats completely different there.. dont go off topic

@michel.. i dont know; i tried it.. didnt know track that well, but iirc i dont think it was all to accurate

..anyone up for GPL? :D
there is a number of nurbs that you can download for GPL at no cost
..nvm.. someone already said its "illegal"

if one of the devs has GPL.. then it wouldnt though
but then again; im sure the nurb in gpl is fairly inaccurate


and AFAIK.. i havent heard any word from anyone that has been able to extract anything from GT4 (including even the music)

What I said was not off topic, I was explaining licensing laws. Just because it doesn't have real tracks doesn't mean it falls under a different law category.

[tristancliffe]

It changes it slightly. They are not licencing a real track (of which they wouldn't own the rights etc), but making their own (of which the have rights automatically).

But talking of fake tracks here is silly - the only way to REALLY test LFS is to try it on the most accurate representation of a real track we can muster. When I say 'we', I mean the devs I suppose (at least til post-S3).

[XCNuse]

autocross... thats the best possible place of anywhere..

[BWX232]

When and if a track editor is released, we can make our own "real" tracks, and just not name them with real names..

Add a an extra corner or something and then there will be no legal issues- right?

[M.Mos]

When and if a track editor is released, we can make our own "real" tracks, and just not name them with real names..

Add a an extra corner or something and then there will be no legal issues- right? I thing you dont even have to add "an extra corner" because the 3D Track won't be a 100% copy of the real track anyway.

This is something similar: ATP Automotive Testing Papenburg (http://www.atp-papenburg.com/index_intro.html) , they rebuilded the real small Hockenheimring , but they call it Handlingcourse. Maybe because of licensing issues :scratchch