Spinoff : ABS in reverse

[Darck.pl]

Scawen, how about not working ABS when driving on reverse ?

[UnknownMaster21]

Scawen, how about not working ABS when driving on reverse ?


Are you sure that ABS will work in reverse?

[Darck.pl]

When snow fall in my city, then I gonna try in my car... But why not?

[UnknownMaster21]

When snow fall in my city, then I gonna try in my car... But why not?

well actually I don´t know about will it work ABS when reverse...

My opinion is that no but...Maybe it´s possible

[Darck.pl]

well actually I don´t know about will it work ABS when reverse...

My opinion is that no but...Maybe it´s possible


So we must wait for a snow :D Or... somebody have snow near house, and car with ABS to try ?

[UnknownMaster21]

So we must wait for a snow :D Or... somebody have snow near house, and car with ABS to try ?


Well, in Finland here, there is not so much snow, but there is many slippery roads :)

[R3DMAN]

i dont think that many cars will beable to go fast enough for abs to be effective in reverse, so its pointless putting it in imo..

i have ABS on the vx, but i turned it off as it was a nuisence

[Darck.pl]

Well, in Finland here, there is not so much snow, but there is many slippery roads :)

ye, but I think that test must be done on snow, because it could be too danegerous to make it on only slippery road :P You must go on slippery road too fast to do this test I think. ;)

btw. sorry for my english.

btw2. I live in "winter capitol of Poland" and there is no any snow. lol. Its like in America. Christmas without snow...

[UnknownMaster21]

btw. sorry for my english.



Read mine Signature :)

And yea, but maybe a test area? :)



EDIT: D´oh, sorry man, you didn´t put that at end of your post :(

[Tazka]

Could you guys just focus on things that really matter, i mean how often do you lock your brakes on reverse gear?

[R3DMAN]

Could you guys just focus on things that really matter, i mean how often do you lock your brakes on reverse gear?



because something is very rarely done doesnt mean it shouldnt be included.

[Whiskey]

Could you guys just focus on things that really matter, i mean how often do you lock your brakes on reverse gear?

What about if you spin? You would like to have all the possible control of the car. Then you'll mind if ABS works in reverse or not :thumb:

[Tazka]

because something is very rarely done doesnt mean it shouldnt be included.
Agreed with that but there's allso some more serious needs in the game that needs to be fixed.

Whiskey, i don't think abs much helps me control my car when reversing in a race. I don't reverse in that high speed that they would come in to play.

Flame me in pm about reverse gear and abs, so this thread wont get full of trash.

[MijnWraak]

Agreed with that but there's allso some more serious needs in the game that needs to be fixed.

Whiskey, i don't think abs much helps me control my car when reversing in a race. I don't reverse in that high speed that they would come in to play.

Flame me in pm about reverse gear and abs, so this thread wont get full of trash.
Actually, ABS could be very important going in reverse. Say you're in an fz5. You clip some grass on a straight, and you're suddenly going backwards. "when you spin, both feet in" Now, if there was abs when reversing, you're tires would have a less chance of having flat spots. It could help quite a lot.

[speed1]

I got my learner's permit recently and have sense screwed around in several iced/snowed over parking lots. One of our cars has no ABS, so that doesnt mean anything, but our honda minivan has it, and it does work in reverse (I dont know about older cars, ours is an 09)

[bbman]

It would make sense too, as the brake bias would be the wrong way round...

[wheel4hummer]

Say you're in an fzr.

The FZR has no ABS.

[Jamesisinthehouse12]

I doubt cars have ABS in reverse, even if we test a car with ABS and it does have it in reverse... How do we know it isn't just that car and maybe a few others?
The VW Sirocco may not have it, but other cars may - even though I see no point...

[evilpimp]

Erm, why would you want ABS in reverse, wether its in LFS or real life... Not like you race backwards... In real life maybe in snowy conditions it can be useful (even then lockups are easy to get) but in LFS where you're sopose to be racing or whatever I doupt you need ABS in reverse O_O.

Wait, after thinking about this, I just realised that it happened to me sometimes that I crash or something and while backing up and braking I lock up. But meh, not really THAT important.

[BlueFlame]

i dont think that many cars will beable to go fast enough for abs to be effective in reverse, so its pointless putting it in imo..

i have ABS on the vx, but i turned it off as it was a nuisence
How can ABS be a nuisence? It's a life saver and only kicks in when you need it so it's impossible for it to become a nuisence.... Your cars ecu must be ****in crazy.

[dougie-lampkin]

Unless we get snow or freezing conditions, I can't see it being necessary. Even if you're reversing around the pitlane, doing fancy manoeuvers, you're not going to be going fast enough in reverse to lock up and slide a hundred yards. Having said that, I'm not sure if real-life cars have ABS in reverse, I'd imagine it differs from vehicle to vehicle though, like the cut-off speed :shrug:

[MijnWraak]

The FZR has no ABS.
Say you're in an fz5... typo.

I can't see it being necessary.
Erm, why would you want ABS in reverse
See my example above

[RIP2004]

Cars do have ABS in reverse. At least my standard coupé does. I often drive reverse because I have to, to get to the street. And I had to break once, while i was very fast. And the brake pedal did move (pump), while ABS was working.

[ripnet]

Yeah, my R32 has ABS in reverse. Just tested it. :)

[UncleBenny]

Nice, I was about to go out and test this in the snow but looks like I don't have to.

[Sub_Atomic]

ABS works in reverse the same as forwards in most cars. Mine included.

Most of the time there's a sensor ring on the front discs that is 'watched', so to speak, by a sensor. Forward or reverse, if it detects a locked wheel, it'll function the same.

[drag1111]

well actually I don´t know about will it work ABS when reverse...

My opinion is that no but...Maybe it´s possible

ABS works on reverse i think. It is a sistem and it works on reverse

[hagenisse]

How can ABS be a nuisence? It's a life saver and only kicks in when you need it so it's impossible for it to become a nuisence.... Your cars ecu must be ****in crazy.
Not only a life saver, but also superior to any human. Obviously, a human with one pedal vs a system that can brake each wheel independently isnt really a fair match..

However, he said he drove a vx, and those cars seems to have some sort of problem with the abs. An unusual number of people turns it off in those.

[tinvek]

there do seem to be some cars which have abs that triggers very early, though why they have been developed that way s open to debate, it may be accidental or it may be deliberate, possibly to cover a potential instability in the car if it is subject to higher braking force or as have seen suggested in the past purely so the customers trigger it more often and feel they're getting their money's worth !

what is interesting to me is an article i read had an abs developer ponting out that if a car has it's weight, weight distribution, springs, shocks, wheels or tyre sizes changed from standard, it should really have its abs re progammed for it to work to its best potential. apart from thinking about all the modded cars out there he also pointed out that a lot of companies have just one abs setting for a model, regardless of spec and almost certainly regardless of any optional extras such as alloy wheels

[Specht77]

Heiko1: "ok tested on moms car Suzuki Vitara V6 2.0 it works ABS backwards :) Buildyear: 1995 :P"

it's on the second page of the test patch Z4

[anarchypredator]

In reality, ABS works in reverse
http://www.dashdriving.com/images/abs.gif
It's just a captor witch detect if there is no movement (http://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=movement&spell=1) anymore (so wheels are locked)
Sorry for my bad english.

[Eldanor]

Could you guys just focus on things that really matter, i mean how often do you lock your brakes on reverse gear?

Simulation is simulation.

If ABS works in reverse, why not implement it? Even if it's not so useful.

[anttt69]

Because its a waste of time & scawen has a thousand more important things to do than worry about weather abs works in reverse.

[marzman]

Because its a waste of time & scawen has a thousand more important things to do than worry about weather abs works in reverse.
Is it? I don't think it's that big a difference with driving forward. Only thiing is your brakes will lock up sooner because the front-back brakeratio is wrong when you drive backwards.

[vari]

Confirmed, does work in reverse. Nissan/2000/Bosch.

[nfrenay]

ABS should work on reverse, as posted by other users, and honestly I don´t think it should be very hard to implement.

Probably have to add an abs(value) on the value used to detect when ABS should work. Should work the same no matter if it´s going forward or backwards.

Maybe needs something more complex like knowing which direction the car is going (fwd or bwd) and use this as reference, so that the ABS won´t "trigger" in odd conditions (like quick acceleration).

[DrBen]

Because its a waste of time & scawen has a thousand more important things to do than worry about weather abs works in reverse.

Sorry for interrupting: has Scawen - once - denied that his implementation was meant to be universal? Because if it is, a fail when in reverse would be considered as a BUG.

In RL ABS is a system that funtions independantly from any driver-input. It detects two or more wheels doing vastly different speeds under brake-pressure - regardless of the direction - thus triggers some electro-pneumatic devices in the braking-system. Simple as that. Now it might not be engeneered to give best results in reverse though, but then again why should it be supposed to do such. I think it will work conveniantly well though, even in reverse.

The other thing that bugs me is the wild misinterpretation of driving assistence-systems:

ABS = Anti-Blockier-System / anti-lock braking system
--> it basically effects all wheels in a similar way since it is modulating the brake force the driver pushes onto the middle pedal. All 4 wheels have sensors on them that track rotation.

Traction-Control: a simple electronic gas-pedal with an intelligent "nanny" between it and the engine/fuel-pump stuff: it will disengage throttle when the driven axxis signals slip through the difference in ABS-sensor readings.

ESP = electronic stability (menagement) program
Now that combines all of the above (/builds upon them) and introduces electronic components inside the braking-system, some yaw-, steering and whatnot-sensors on top of all that, a "dsp" with some sort of predefined reaction paths (programs) and is connected to some kind of computational device which will help you regain a stable "in-lane"-kind of driving-state again, with no slip on any wheel:: by triggering each wheel's brake independantly and -if needed- simutaniously on it's own accord, even when there is NO DRIVER-INPUT on the brakes, what-so-ever.

Maybe the english language has now taken the term "traction control" as a substitute for the rather dull sounding "ESP" - that I don't quite know. JC from TopGear uses that term in this way, though - so might be a given fact.

Have fun!

PS.: I'd prefer my Scirocco un-tamed. But given the fact that the RL-model will prevent you from turning the ESP completely-off, I just wait and see what the Dev-s come up with in 2009 :D

Cheers
DrBen
PS2.: sorry for this hard-to-read post, grammar-wise. It's late, I'm off to my bed!

[Chris P]

Finally someone explained how an ABS system works. I really cba doing it myself. If you look at the way an ABS system works there shouldn't be any reason why it shouldn't work in reverse. The only thing that could be different would be if the manufacturer programmes into the system to ignore wheel speed differences when the speed is negative (read: reverse). That would simply be programmed into the system.
Another thing which I've noticed, is that the car's speedo isn't yet 'wired-up' to the abs system in lfs. Car speed on modern cars is calculated through the abs system. Perhaps Scawen hasn't had the time to programme that correctly, but I sure hope to see it implemented correctly one day.

edit: DrBen... what you didn't add is that the abs system isn't entirely independent to user-input. The brakepedal has a sensor attached to it. Only if the brakepedal is engaged will the abs system work.

[wheel4hummer]

it will disengage throttle when the driven axxis signals slip through the difference in ABS-sensor readings.

It depends on the traction control system. With some systems, ignition is cut in one or more of the cylinders, or fuel reduced slightly. There's so many different implementations of traction control.

[DrBen]

Thanks again for your help in clarifying this.
So my aim to introduce some rationality into this "discussion" finally met it's purpose.

On another note: Since engine-management is done mostly elctectronically nowerdays I imagine those other kinds of traction control implementations are soon do "die out" given the widely adapted use of stability management systems on new cars (Most not-too cheap new cars have them installed as standard on the german market). Would not make too much sense economically if any such cars didn't have a "drive-by-wire" accelerator - and therefor I expect all the variety-models based on a common drive-train and featuring TC to use a similar aproach, as well, as to keep dev-costs down a bit.
Am I wrong here? I'm no mechanic of any sorts, so that's why I'm guessing as well. Although sports cars might be a whole different story :D

[Chris P]

I am a mechanic and what you're saying is mostly correct. The car electronics nowadays are combined by what's called a can-bus networking system. So your abs/tc management will use the signal provided by your electronic gas-pedal, clutch-, and brakepedal sensors, for example.

... seems as though we're going a bit off-topic though. :)

[anttt69]

Sorry for interrupting: has Scawen - once - denied that his implementation was meant to be universal? Because if it is, a fail when in reverse would be considered as a BUG.

tbh if you find yourself driving backwards then you've already failed.

why on earth do we need brake help when driving backwards?

[skstibi]

ABS works no matter what you are doing to the car. The sensors detect rotation, they do not care which direction they are going. I have not worked with systems newer than 1995 but the general idea is the same. I don't know if the ABS now days has settings in the main ECM but in <1997 GM cars there was no such thing.
If you end up backwards then either you have failed or some joker failed and took you with him. There is always those people that send you spinning for the heck of it. I don't want any help driving so I don't care about ABS in reverse or Forwards, or sideways but some people want ABS to help them stop when their car starts going backwards for one reason or the other. I have done 235kph going backward headed for the pits before. I made it but I can see how someone with a mouse would have problems braking.

In my sisters VW, you can turn the ESP off and you can do stupid things without any electronics trying to help you. I am going to wait and see how the ABS compares to my sisters GLI.

I like my cars without any assists.
My VW lacks about every driving assist known to man. :D

[Darck.pl]

Hmm. I tested it in my Ford Escort mkVI, and ABS is working on reverse.

[Drift[EST]]

Dont know what i'm saying is correct or not but my opinion is that ABS only works when you brake so it shouldnt matter if your going forward or rewersing. ABS always works when you brake, thats only my thought about it.

[Karl Morytz]

ABS working on reverse on VW Golf IV here:nod:

[Napalm Candy]

I tried with a new Peugeot Partner, and ABS works in reverse

[J@tko]

I think all over the world people are getting very confused as everyone is coming down their street flat out in reverse then braking really hard to check that their ABS is working whilst going backwards :)

[The Radness]

tbh if you find yourself driving backwards then you've already failed.

why on earth do we need brake help when driving backwards?

In a spin, ABS when going backwards may be a good idea. :shrug:

[shurcooL]

I can imagine the headlines:

"Some kid crashes his moms car going in reverse at 30 mph to test ABS for a video game. Video games are bad."

[Zen321]

I can imagine the headlines:

"Some kid crashes his moms car going in reverse at 30 mph to test ABS for a video game. Video games are bad."

That is most likely to happen in the USA :nod:

[DragonCommando]

ABS won't help you in a spin, and it wouldent be usefull going backwards anyway. ABS isn't designed to stop your car, its designed to help you steer it away from a collision. If you try to steer going backwards you will just cause another spin. I ususaly use this to my advantage and do a J-turn.

The most common misconception about ABS is that it is there to help stop your car, this is why people still hit stuff even when ABS kicks in. ABS won't magicaly stop your car, it will allow most drivers to steer around a collision with the brake pedal to the floor. Its idiot proofing that doesn't quite idiot proof. This is because most people just put the brake pedal to the floor and brace for impact, even though they could very easily, thanks to ABS, steer around.

I've asked alot of people and they all say "ABS helps you stop your car" That is NOT what it was designed for.

[The Radness]

ABS won't help you in a spin, and it wouldent be usefull going backwards anyway. ABS isn't designed to stop your car, its designed to help you steer it away from a collision. If you try to steer going backwards you will just cause another spin. I ususaly use this to my advantage and do a J-turn.

The most common misconception about ABS is that it is there to help stop your car, this is why people still hit stuff even when ABS kicks in. ABS won't magicaly stop your car, it will allow most drivers to steer around a collision with the brake pedal to the floor. Its idiot proofing that doesn't quite idiot proof. This is because most people just put the brake pedal to the floor and brace for impact, even though they could very easily, thanks to ABS, steer around.

I've asked alot of people and they all say "ABS helps you stop your car" That is NOT what it was designed for.

I will agree with that. Idiot proofing underestimates the idiots.:razz:

[BlueFlame]

ABS won't help you in a spin, and it wouldent be usefull going backwards anyway. ABS isn't designed to stop your car, its designed to help you steer it away from a collision.
I've asked alot of people and they all say "ABS helps you stop your car" That is NOT what it was designed for. It is what it was designed for. You couldn't avoid the collision at a higher speed, it's designed to reduce speed as fast as possible. Therefore, designed to stop the car.

[Chris P]

It is what it was designed for. You couldn't avoid the collision at a higher speed, it's designed to reduce speed as fast as possible. Therefore, designed to stop the car.
DragonCommando is right here, really!
An experienced racing driver will be able to stop a car without abs faster than a normal human with abs! That's a known fact. ABS is simply a driving aid... it helps you, the driver, still control the car under extremely heavy braking allowing you, if you're smart enough, to steer away from the danger. That's what abs is designed to do.

[J.B.]

An experienced racing driver will be able to stop a car without abs faster than a normal human with abs!

Wrong, in both series I know of where ABS was used (DTM and F1), the laptimes came down thanks to ABS allowing deeper, harder braking. Your statement may be true for slower Roadcar ABS but I can't say for sure what the current state of development is for typical roadcar ABS.

[bbman]

Wrong, in both series I know of where ABS was used (DTM and F1), the laptimes came down thanks to ABS allowing deeper, harder braking. Your statement may be true for slower Roadcar ABS but I can't say for sure what the current state of development is for typical roadcar ABS.

An experienced driver can stop a car faster in a straight line than an older ABS-systems can.

Can we agree on this rule?

[J.B.]

Yep, sounds ok to me. :petals:

[DragonCommando]

It is what it was designed for. You couldn't avoid the collision at a higher speed, it's designed to reduce speed as fast as possible. Therefore, designed to stop the car.

This is exactly what I am talking about, ABS is designed to alow the average person to push the brakes to the floor and steer around the hazard, but most people think exactly like you do. And most people smash into the car infront of them and come away going "But the ABS kicked in, why coulden't I stop?"

I have practiced high speed steering, and belive me, If I needed to steer around something braking from 100km/h, I could do it. And if I can, anybody can learn how to control thier car properly. The problem with drivers today is that they don't take the time to learn thier car.

Edit: I also forgot to mention a trick I learned for avoiding collisions in a medium-low speed situation. I call it the "Lock and Pop" And it only works on cars without ABS.

What you do is lock the wheels and turn the steering wheel, this causes the car to continue to slide straight even though the wheels are turned, then you pop your foot off the brake and apply proper pressure so you don't relock them. This will cause the cars front end to shoot out in one direction allowing you to steer around a hazard very quickly. The maneuver should only take a split second to do, but you have to watch where your car goes afterward and steer to avoid hitting something else.

They used to teach you that when you take your drivers test, but now they don't teach you any of the important maneuvers anymore.

[BlueFlame]

This is exactly what I am talking about, ABS is designed to alow the average person to push the brakes to the floor and steer around the hazard, but most people think exactly like you do. And most people smash into the car infront of them and come away going "But the ABS kicked in, why coulden't I stop?"

I'm not going to hit the middle pedal and wonder why I didn't stop in time, of course I'd attempt to avoid collision but I imagine turning whilst ABS is engaged is extremely weird and unnatural to the car, given body roll etc too..

[DragonCommando]

Just try doing it without ABS, thats imposibble to do with the wheels locked, hence why Lock and Pop is a good thing to know.

There's a reason ABS doesn't kick in below certain speeds, thats because it's not designed to stop your car, its designed to allow you to brake hard and steer at the same time, something you don't need to do at low speeds.

[BlueFlame]

Just try doing it without ABS, thats imposibble to do with the wheels locked, hence why Lock and Pop is a good thing to know.

There's a reason ABS doesn't kick in below certain speeds, thats because it's not designed to stop your car, its designed to allow you to brake hard and steer at the same time, something you don't need to do at low speeds. ABS = Anti-lock Braking System, so therefore with it's use it helps you to stop more quickly than without ABS. If your car stops faster than anothers car the chances of your car being stopped before the collision are way higher than the others car. Of course you cannot steer when your wheels are locked and yes, people who have passed their test don't realise this either. At a low speed it's impossible to lock your brakes unless the surface is slippery or unless you pull the handbrake in which all of the braking is put to the rear wheels, if you halfed that force and put it on the front aswell as the back you wouldn't lock up in the same way. What you are saying isn't correct, ABS is to get you to stop BEFORE you have to divert your course, any idiot would divert whilst braking, it's just common sense but ABS is there so you are able to slow down before you even need to avoid but truthfully steering a car under ABS than locked wheels is obviously going to be safer and easier.

[Zachary Zoomy]

ABS works in revese on 2002 Honda Accord. my dad was driving (backwards down an icy hill).
/2cents

[bbman]

ABS = Anti-lock Braking System, so therefore with it's use it helps you to stop more quickly than without ABS. If your car stops faster than anothers car the chances of your car being stopped before the collision are way higher than the others car. Of course you cannot steer when your wheels are locked and yes, people who have passed their test don't realise this either. At a low speed it's impossible to lock your brakes unless the surface is slippery or unless you pull the handbrake in which all of the braking is put to the rear wheels, if you halfed that force and put it on the front aswell as the back you wouldn't lock up in the same way. What you are saying isn't correct, ABS is to get you to stop BEFORE you have to divert your course, any idiot would divert whilst braking, it's just common sense but ABS is there so you are able to slow down before you even need to avoid but truthfully steering a car under ABS than locked wheels is obviously going to be safer and easier.

Rubbish, I suggest informing yourself before you (once again) make a fool of yourself... ABS NEVER was intended to provide better braking, it had and still has only one purpose: to give you the ability to steer while fully on the brakes... Modern ABS-systems are very sophisticated and may provide a lesser braking distance to the average driver's braking skill, but they still don't deviate from their original purpose...

[BlueFlame]

Rubbish, I suggest informing yourself before you (once again) make a fool of yourself... ABS NEVER was intended to provide better braking, it had and still has only one purpose: to give you the ability to steer while fully on the brakes... Modern ABS-systems are very sophisticated and may provide a lesser braking distance to the average driver's braking skill, but they still don't deviate from their original purpose...
It's purpose is to prevent your wheels from locking. You said that ABS isn't intended to help you slow down more quickly than without? How does ABS not spell that out?
People can interpret the sub-purpose how ever they want but the name is what it is, you don't call a banana, a banana when it's a carrot do you?

[shurcooL]

A quick tidbit: 2005 Subaru Forester 2.5XS (AT) doesn't have ABS when going in reverse.

I had the opportunity to test it out on the ice-covered driveway, by going around -5 km/hr I slammed on the brakes and the wheels got locked without the ABS kicking in (the car back slid to the side too).

Of course, it kicked in right away when I tried going +5km/hr forward on the same driveway.

Just wanted to throw that out there, since it seemed here most cars do have ABS in both directions. I was actually surprised.

[DragonCommando]

It's purpose is to prevent your wheels from locking. You said that ABS isn't intended to help you slow down more quickly than without? How does ABS not spell that out?
People can interpret the sub-purpose how ever they want but the name is what it is, you don't call a banana, a banana when it's a carrot do you?


I realy hope you wake up and actualy do some research.

I am an AUTOMOTIVE TECHNICIAN, that means that I know alot about the braking systems on a car and how/what they are designed to do.

I had to study this stuff for two years, I know what ABS is designed for, and I don't know how you get "STOP YOUR CAR FASTER" out of "ANTI-LOCK BRAKE SYSTEM"

The whole point to preventing the wheels from locking is to allow an inexperianced driver to steer thier car when they panic and smash the pedal to the floor. It was never intended to allow you to stop your car in a straight line, that is what your foot is supposed to do.

IF YOU NEED ABS TO STOP QUICKLY YOU ARE NOT AN EXPERIANCED DRIVER

[marzman]

I realy hope you wake up and actualy do some research.

I am an AUTOMOTIVE TECHNICIAN, that means that I know alot about the braking systems on a car and how/what they are designed to do.

I had to study this stuff for two years, I know what ABS is designed for, and I don't know how you get "STOP YOUR CAR FASTER" out of "ANTI-LOCK BRAKE SYSTEM"

The whole point to preventing the wheels from locking is to allow an inexperianced driver to steer thier car when they panic and smash the pedal to the floor. It was never intended to allow you to stop your car in a straight line, that is what your foot is supposed to do.

IF YOU NEED ABS TO STOP QUICKLY YOU ARE NOT AN EXPERIANCED DRIVER
If you need to make an emergency stop most people will slow down faster with ABS. Because in the moment you floor the brakepedal. That also counts for "experienced" drivers that don't expect that they have to make an emergency stop (because they are shaving/making phonecalls/looking on a roadmap). In normal circumstances you don't need ABS, not experienced and not unexperienced drivers.

[wheel4hummer]

If you know how to properly brake (not that difficult to do), then you can probably stop faster without ABS. The thing is, tires and suspension technology was alot less advanced when there was no ABS. But ever since ABS started being used, tires have become safer, etc.

BTW, on my car, ABS doesn't even engage on dry pavement.

[tristancliffe]

Lets say you're doing 60mph (100kmh) and you come across a hazard blocking the road that you really don't want to hit. The thing is, it's only ~40m in front of you, so you won't stop in time, regardless of what magic abilities you or your car possess.

The average driver, who almost certainly lacks sufficient training to control 1 tonne of vehicle in anything but perfect non-critical conditions, will probably panic and lock up. They will crash.

The ABS equipped car will probably slow down a bit quicker than if the wheels had locked, but the main advantage is that the average driver can allow his built-in sense of self preservation to going around the obstacle. Hurrah.

Of course, with proper training and practice the average driver would have been able to cadence brake (or even "Lock and Pop") around the obstacle, and still maintain enough presence of mind to stop the car safely, hop out and use as many imaginative swear words at the driver/owner of the obstacle as he can possibly manage. Without proper training (but with ABS) he'd be so scared that the only thing on his mind would be filling up his pants.

ABS in a nutshell - great when you've not been taught enough to be allowed to drive.

[Michael Denham]

I'm not going to get into the e-penis competition that's going on here; you guys have fun with that...

Just wanted to chime in and say that my Mum's VW New Beetle has ABS in reverse.

[BlueFlame]

I'm not going to listen to people who are just arrogant in thinking they can still avoid a crash without ABS or don't even need it. Most cases an experienced driver is already taking action because they have forseen the crash before anyone 'average' has anyway. ABS makes the car slow down more quickly than without ABS, nobody can argue this because it's true, there no way in HELL you can modulate all 4braking wheels with 1pedal manually.

[Huru-aito]

I'm not going to listen to people who are just arrogant in thinking they can still avoid a crash without ABS or don't even need it.

I have the feeling you aren't going to listen to anyone, no matter how right they are. Anyways, I've managed to avoid many crashes without ABS driving on snow and ice.

nobody can argue this because it's true

:D

Have you ever even driven a car? Or just seen your uncle driving one? Would explain a lot.

[DragonCommando]

It's obvious that BlueFlame doesn't have alot of experiance behind the wheel of a real car.

I've driven all sorts of vehicles over the past years, not all of them have had ABS (bikes don't). You know what saved me from a crash more than once, actualy realizing that you CAN'T STOP, you need to go around regardless of ABS or not. Trying to stop a car within 100m at 100km/h isn't possible, even with ABS. I've seen people try to, and it wasn't a pretty scene.

If people can't comprehend that ABS isn't designed to stop your car faster, thats not my problem as long as I'm not the one they hit. But if someone rear ended me because they didn't have the common sence to either steer or lock and pop, then I'll be damned if I don't give them my two cents.

Nobody said modern ABS doesn't stop your car faster, all we are saying is that it's not designed to stop your car faster, it's designed to allow you to steer with the pedal to the floor. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.

IT WAS EVEN IN A SERVICE TECH TRAINING BOOK.

"ABS or Anti-Lock Brake System is a system encorporated into the computer system of most modern cars, when active it allows a driver to steer thier car in a panic situation where they would normaly lock the brakes and slide."

I wish I still had the damn book, because then I could scan the whole page, instead of taking it from notes.

Maybe when I actualy have my Service tech license people will actualy listen to me :shrug:

[DragonCommando]

If you need to make an emergency stop most people will slow down faster with ABS. Because in the moment you floor the brakepedal. That also counts for "experienced" drivers that don't expect that they have to make an emergency stop (because they are shaving/making phonecalls/looking on a roadmap). In normal circumstances you don't need ABS, not experienced and not unexperienced drivers.

I just HAD to make another post just for this, experianced driver shaving behind the wheel? Thats not an experianced driver, thats an idiot who wants to die.

I never do any of that while driving, its just plain ignorance to do so.

[BlueFlame]

I never do any of that while driving, its just plain ignorance to do so.
You're right, when you are behind the wheel, you're instantly putting peoples lives in YOUR hands. If one of your hand is doing something other than driving, you gotta think about what you are doing more carefully.

As for ABS, I don't care what it was intended for, my arguement was that it doesn't matter how experienced you are, ABS will slow your car down faster than without ABS no matter what braking technique you use.

[vari]

Trying to stop a car within 100m at 100km/h isn't possible, even with ABS. I've seen people try to, and it wasn't a pretty scene.

Not tested on same day so some results may seem odd compared to others:


- Koenigsegg CCR 31 m:
- Porsche Boxster S = 34.8
- Lamborghini Murcielago = 35.4
- Porsche 911 GT3 = 35.4
- Chevrolet Corvette C5 = 35.5
- Nissan 350Z Track = 35.5
- Honda NSX-R ('02) = 35.7
- Ferrari 360 = 35.7
- Chrysler Crossfire SRT-6 36 m:
- Audi TT 1.8T Quattro = 36.1
- Honda S2000 = 36.1
- BMW Z3 Coupe 3.0i = 36.1
- Porsche 911 GT2 = 36.1
- Porsche 911 Turbo (996) = 36.1
- Mercedes CLK55 AMG = 36.3
- Audi RS4 = 36.4
- BMW M3 E46 = 36.4
- Mercedes C43 AMG = 36.4
- Renault Clio Sport V6 = 36.7
- Porsche 911 Carerra ('02) = 36.9
- Mercedes SL55 AMG = 36.9
- Ferrari 575 = 37.0
- BMW Z4 3.0 = 37.0
- Audi S3 = 37.1
- BMW M Roadster = 37.1
- VW Golf R32 = 37.1
- Honda Civic TypeR = 37.4
- Audi S4 = 37.5
- BMW M Coupe = 37.5
- BMW Z8 = 37.5
- Porsche Boxster ('03) = 37.5
- Mercedes 500SL ('02) = 37.5
- Aston Martin DB7 Vantage = 37.8
- BMW M5 E36 = 37.8
- Alfa 156 GTA = 38.0
- Maserati Coupé Cambiocorsa = 38.0
- Renault Megane 38 m
- Ferrari 550 = 38.2
- Maserati 3200GT = 38.2
- Mercedes SLK32 AMG = 38.2
- Lotus Exige = 39.0
- Mercedes C32 AMG = 39.0
- Jaguar XKR Coupe = 39.4
- Lamborghini Diablo GT = 39.8
- VW Gold Gti = 40.0
- Mitsubishi EVO6 = 40.6
- Porsche 911 Carerra4 (996) = 40.6
- Subaru WRX = 41.0
- Lotus Esprit Sport 350 = 41.9
- VW Golf V6 4Motion = 41.9

Exotic cars sure so here's some more 'normal' ones:

Ford Focus 1.6 TDCi Trend Wagon 80 kW
Opel Astra 1.7 CDTI Wagon Cosmo
Skoda Octavia Combi 1.9 TDI Ambiente
Toyota Corolla 2.0 D-4D 116 Linea Sol Wagon

39,7m
38,9m
41,3m
41,7m


Even with added reaction time of one second it should be far less than 100 meters. :scratchch

[wheel4hummer]

Even with added reaction time of one second it should be far less than 100 meters. :scratchch

True, a one second reaction time only adds about 30m onto the stopping distance. But, reaction time is from the point at which you notice the obstacle to when you react to it. But if you don't notice the obstacle like some idiot changing the radio station, looks up, and realizes that there is a stopped car in front of them and slams on the brakes. Their reaction time may have been 1 second, but the perception time is greater then that. It takes humans a little while to identify a problem, figure out what to do, and do it. The reaction time is just the latency between deciding on how to fix a problem, and actually doing it. But you still have to perceive the obstacle, and decide how to react, before you react.

[vari]

Yes of course, I just put 1 second there as it's commonly used 'by the experts'. Then again it's also clear that it takes longer when the situation is difficult and there's few options to choose from. Funnily enough, an amateur driver often doesn't think in this case and just slams the brakes and then turns the wheel which is exactly the right thing to do in most cases when you have ABS :) Yet again in some accident reviews it has been so that a driver who is considered to be skillful hasn't reacted for a very long time in any way.

Anyways, you'd have ~2 seconds to react in this case which is plenty in my opinion. (He said it isn't possible at all)

[NightShift]

Nobody said modern ABS doesn't stop your car faster, all we are saying is that it's not designed to stop your car faster, it's designed to allow you to steer with the pedal to the floor. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.

I agree with you on this, though are a couple 'but's.

1) The ABS has been marketed with that stated aim, but then it has evolved over the last 30 years, I wouldn't be too surprised if current systems, especially on faster cars, were able to do better than the mythological skilled driver.

2) If the ABS fitted on most shopping carts were indeed able to break better than the skilled driver, are we sure the manufacturers would say this clearly?

For the sake of safety, I think they could decide to keep it to themselves as well.

[geeman1]

Modern ABS can indeed stop the car faster than any driver possibly could. A person can't threshold brake as closely as ABS system can.
Only exception is with studded tyres on ice where locking the tyres is the fastest way to stop.

[Horci]

I think if you have ABS you can stop your car faster, without ABS, IF your speed is more than (as far as I can remember) 40km/h. Above that speed, the electronics works better than a professional driver, and of course much, much better than a regular driver, who just steps on the brake, the wheels are locking, and he just presses the pedal with more power ...

On the other side, if your speed below 40, the locking wheels can stop the car a bit faster (maybe in wet conditions too) than the ABS can do, with well calculated brake force, and let the wheels spin.


About the topic: I think ABS have to work is reversed too ... (there are a lot of comment about its operation), So it have to be implented to the game, because this is a simulator which simulates real cars :)

[DragonCommando]

I'm talking a big car here guys, like the average canadian car. They go from 100-0 in alot more space than a europian car.

I just realize I put the wrong unit to, I meant feet, not meters. :razz:
The crown victoria goes from 100-0km/h within 167ft.

ABS still has the same intended usage no matter how advanced it becomes. My brake book was from 2003, And I'll quote it again.

"ABS or Anti-Lock Brake System is a system encorporated into the computer system of most modern cars, when active it allows a driver to steer thier car in a panic situation where they would normaly lock the brakes and slide."

[wheel4hummer]

Why not make an ABS system that is more sensitive when you turn the wheel more then a certain amount. Turn it a little, no ABS. Turn it past a certain point and the ABS is enabled.

[DragonCommando]

Because at high speeds you only turn the wheel a little. ABS won't stop you from lossing contol of a car because of excessive steering, it can only do so much.

[BlueFlame]

I'm talking a big car here guys, like the average canadian car. They go from 100-0 in alot more space than a europian car.

I just realize I put the wrong unit to, I meant feet, not meters. :razz:
The crown victoria goes from 100-0km/h within 167ft.

ABS still has the same intended usage no matter how advanced it becomes. My brake book was from 2003, And I'll quote it again.

"ABS or Anti-Lock Brake System is a system encorporated into the computer system of most modern cars, when active it allows a driver to steer thier car in a panic situation where they would normaly lock the brakes and slide."
Well your book isn't openly stating that this is the only use for ABS anyway it just says when it's engaged you can steer round and object other without the threat of locking your brakes it doesn't say that's the only reason for its existance.

[DragonCommando]

My god, you are thick headed.

[STF]

Long story short, i`ve had my first and only fender bender, because of ABS.
He suddenly braked on clean asphalt, because he thought the car coming the other way didn`t have enough room(narrow road, 2 cars + 10cm).
I was on asphalt+sand, speed 20-30km/h, and used very little brake pressure but the ABS still engaged.
Did not slow down at all. I was just a spectator, waiting for it to stop, it did.. 20-0 in 0.1 seconds. There was no room to go, except.. a big concrete wall.
I preferred his bum, thinking it would be ok, he wasn`t on his brakes. Turned out he was, but the brake lights were not functional. So i got a little kidney massage, some damage. He got none.

From then on, i took out my ABS fuse.. and in time, i managed to avoid similar or worse situations.

From what i read, and from what i observed, the tyre friction is max, when there is a degree of slip, like 5-10%. A little chirp.
My car`s ABS system seems to engage well before it even has 0.1% slip :shrug:. No thanks. Really.:really:
I never heard "chirp" under heavy braking, dry asphalt. But i got ABS. Me wants chirp. Me haz chirp with no ABS. Chirp it is :razz:.

And then i drove some BMWs, VWs, even an old Mercedes. It didn`t suck THAT bad, and it ~changed my opinion about ABS. But not about my car's ABS.
Snow is coming.. Ice + ABS = .. love.:tilt:

[SniperX]

...
I was on asphalt+sand, speed 20-30km/h, and used very little brake pressure but the ABS still engaged.
...That is the difference between old ABS systems and newer ones..
On old systems you stop pressing the pedal because you feel the ABS working and it feels like the car is "floating" when the ABS engages.
This does not give you max brake effect. If you continue to press the pedal harder you will get more brake effect. (giving more brake pressure to the rear wheels and/or the wheels with better traction than the one(s) blocking).

On newer systems there is something called "pannic assistant" (if I remember the correct English word) that automatically gives you max brake effect when the ABS engages.

[geeman1]

"ABS or Anti-Lock Brake System is a system encorporated into the computer system of most modern cars, when active it allows a driver to steer thier car in a panic situation where they would normaly lock the brakes and slide."Stop repeating yourself. Of course ABS is supposed to help you maintain control of the car without having to worry about locking the brakes.

[BlueFlame]

My god, you are thick headed.
And you seem to think that ABS doesn't decrease braking distances, I find this laughable.

[el pibe]

It's obvious that BlueFlame doesn't have alot of experiance behind the wheel of a real car.

I've driven all sorts of vehicles over the past years, not all of them have had ABS (bikes don't). You know what saved me from a crash more than once, actualy realizing that you CAN'T STOP, you need to go around regardless of ABS or not. Trying to stop a car within 100m at 100km/h isn't possible, even with ABS. I've seen people try to, and it wasn't a pretty scene.

If people can't comprehend that ABS isn't designed to stop your car faster, thats not my problem as long as I'm not the one they hit. But if someone rear ended me because they didn't have the common sence to either steer or lock and pop, then I'll be damned if I don't give them my two cents.

Nobody said modern ABS doesn't stop your car faster, all we are saying is that it's not designed to stop your car faster, it's designed to allow you to steer with the pedal to the floor. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.

IT WAS EVEN IN A SERVICE TECH TRAINING BOOK.

"ABS or Anti-Lock Brake System is a system encorporated into the computer system of most modern cars, when active it allows a driver to steer thier car in a panic situation where they would normaly lock the brakes and slide."

I wish I still had the damn book, because then I could scan the whole page, instead of taking it from notes.

Maybe when I actualy have my Service tech license people will actualy listen to me :shrug:

u kno what ? just put BIGGER and MORE EFFICIENT brakes and you will stop in less than a 100m at 100km/h . u have the rights to not reading me coz i am a teenager and i dont drive yet but i am 99.9% sure that my option will work better than your ABS or no ABS discussion....

[The Radness]

u kno what ? just put BIGGER and MORE EFFICIENT brakes and you will stop in less than a 100m at 100km/h . u have the rights to not reading me coz i am a teenager and i dont drive yet but i am 99.9% sure that my option will work better than your ABS or no ABS discussion....

If your wheels lock with "smaller" brakes, "bigger" brakes wouldn't solve the locking issue. :shrug: Right?

[SniperX]

If your wheels lock with "smaller" brakes, "bigger" brakes wouldn't solve the locking issue. :shrug: Right?
(And the 100m should be 100 feet, its corrected in this thread... (approx 33 meters))

[The Radness]

(And the 100m should be 100 feet, its corrected in this thread... (approx 33 meters))

I saw that. But doesn't it take the same amount of force to lock a tire regardless of how "big" the brakes are? Bigger brakes wont make your car stop faster if you're already locking them up in the first place(no abs). That was my point to the person I quoted.

[DragonCommando]

And you seem to think that ABS doesn't decrease braking distances, I find this laughable.


Are you even reading my post? I said NOBODY SAID ABS DOESN'T DECREASE BRAKE DISTANCE.

I'm just saying that its not there to stop your car faster, thats just a side effect of its intended use.

Damnit I wish people would read the whole thread instead of running off at the mouth.

@el pibe,
And how are bigger brakes going to stop the car faster if the small ones already lock the wheels? wheres the added traction come from?

Wider tires are about the only way you can stop a car faster than normal brakes, hell, even drum brakes will stop the average car pretty well.

[BlueFlame]

Are you even reading my post? I said NOBODY SAID ABS DOESN'T DECREASE BRAKE DISTANCE.

I'm just saying that its not there to stop your car faster, thats just a side effect of its intended use.

In a previous post you lol'd at me when I said ABS improves stoppage distances. Make your mind up.

[DragonCommando]

Dude, no I didn't.

And if I did I was refering to older ABS like the cars in LFS would have.

Older ABS does it's job well, unfortunately, the peole who drove those cars equiped with older ABS didn't know that you still have to go around the obstacle, and when they pressed the pedal and felt the car "float" they would re-pump the brakes and that would cause an accident. In worst cases I've heard of people panicing when the ABS kicks in and just completely releasing the brakes.

Modern ABS has improved on the stopping distance when ABS is engaged, but its not the point of it, modern ABS has been improved so that people are more likely to hold the brakes and steer than repump and brace for impact. Unfortuanately many people still do.

On my fathers 99' 6.5l turbo diesel van you can stop faster on most surfaces without ABS than with, But thats 3 tons of truck plus payload, so when the ABS pulses it doesn't keep enough pressure to maintain optimum brake force for the weight. On most cars the pulses are ususaly enough to preven the wheels from locking without loosing a considerable amount of brake force.

On my fathers van, when ABS is engaged the brake distance increases by as much as 5ft, may not sound like much, but it can mean the difference between hitting something or stoping just short.

I will add that you can't steer around in all cases, because sometimes you will be blocked in, but thats no excuse to slam the pedal to the floor.

[nihilist]

Let's clear this up a little shall we:
- ABS was designed purely to allow you to steer/control the car whilst you are braking heavily by stopping the wheels from locking
- Modern ABS brakes will usually reduce stopping distances, especially in an emergency braking situation. However, dependent on the driver, road conditions, tyres and a lot of other conditions, it is possible to stop more quickly with ABS disabled, especially on track
- On snow, ice and other slippy surfaces ABS increases stopping distances

And usually the best way to reduce stopping distances is with better tyres, not bigger brakes ;)

[BlueFlame]

Let's clear this up a little shall we:
- ABS was designed purely to allow you to steer/control the car whilst you are braking heavily by stopping the wheels from locking
- Modern ABS brakes will usually reduce stopping distances, especially in an emergency braking situation. However, dependent on the driver, road conditions, tyres and a lot of other conditions, it is possible to stop more quickly with ABS disabled, especially on track
- On snow, ice and other slippy surfaces ABS increases stopping distances

And usually the best way to reduce stopping distances is with better tyres, not bigger brakes ;)
new account Nihil?

[zeugnimod]

new account Nihil?

If at all, it's an old account. Joined in 2005. :tilt:

[BlueFlame]

If at all, it's an old account. Joined in 2005. :tilt:
Yea... Didn't notice that.. :D

[tristancliffe]

And you seem to think that ABS doesn't decrease braking distances, I find this laughable.

It didn't until very recently on road cars - the last three or four years. And even then only on the slightly more expensive cars (i.e. those in the £15k+ market. I doubt that the cheap Tatas in the £6k region have such advanced ABS just yet.

Drive a 90s car with ABS and you'll need to use quite long rules to measure how much worse the braking distances will be in most (but not all, I grant you) situations.

[BlueFlame]

Well to suggest a human can brake better than ABS I find arrogant. You can't modulate braking with all 4 wheels with just one pedal, you are just pressing the pedal as much as it allows before it locks up, and even then you can have 1 or 2 of the wheels still locking.

[tristancliffe]

And old ABS systems weren't able to do that - they could reduce the pressure on one wheel, but not increase it. So you never had more braking that you asked for - and only less. Therefore a skilled driver could maintain threshold braking for longer.

[vari]

It didn't until very recently on road cars - the last three or four years. And even then only on the slightly more expensive cars (i.e. those in the £15k+ market. I doubt that the cheap Tatas in the £6k region have such advanced ABS just yet.

Drive a 90s car with ABS and you'll need to use quite long rules to measure how much worse the braking distances will be in most (but not all, I grant you) situations.

I'm gonna raise the gospel flag and just link to this old post :p

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1006453#post1006453

(Many other tests support these findings if it should be unsatisfactory in any way :))

[BlueFlame]

And old ABS systems weren't able to do that - they could reduce the pressure on one wheel, but not increase it. So you never had more braking that you asked for - and only less. Therefore a skilled driver could maintain threshold braking for longer.
I see, thanks for this information Tristan, I stand corrected.

[DragonCommando]

Also, the Mitsubishi starion (which the XRG/XRT is based on) only had single channel anti-lock on the rear wheels.

I find it odd they would put it only on the rears, but thats what all my sources say.


I have done 4 replays with a layout I call Lock and Pop test, I did a no ABS lock and pop, an ABS steering maneuver, and straight stop with both (and crashed with both doing it).

I also set up my car like a Starion, that means moderately loose suspension and Starion ratios.

The thing is, I've never posted replays before. So I have a question, do I need to post the setup and layout files as well, or is that in the save file somehow?

[BlueFlame]

Also, the Mitsubishi starion (which the XRG/XRT is based on) only had single channel anti-lock on the rear wheels.

I find it odd they would put it only on the rears, but thats what all my sources say.


I have done 4 replays with a layout I call Lock and Pop test, I did a no ABS lock and pop, an ABS steering maneuver, and straight stop with both (and crashed with both doing it).

I also set up my car like a Starion, that means moderately loose suspension and Starion ratios.

The thing is, I've never posted replays before. So I have a question, do I need to post the setup and layout files as well, or is that in the save file somehow?
You can just post the replay, but I suppose you should post your .lyt file too, since i'm sure some people will want to try it

[freddyalek90]

Just tried in my '01 Opel Astra and, yes, ABS works in reverse.

[Interjmt]

Also there is one other side ABS function. ABS also helps you to maintain straight line braking when your car is on different surfaces, for egg. left side on tarmac, other on mud. In such conditions when braking wheels on more slippery surface would lock quicker than on other, so car would start to spin at that direction. ABS as you all already know has ability to apply pressure to each wheel independently so it applies less pressure on those who are on gripper surface maintaining full control of the car.

[DrBen]

once again:
happy new year to you all.

and PLEASE don't confuse the different driving aids, again:

read the first 2 pages & understand what's presented there.
ABS does nothing more than to prevent overbraking, thus preserving you traction on all 4 wheels under full brake-load so that you could still steer (and actually make it around an obstacle if there was any). And sure enough nothing less. AND YES it does it "in reverse", as well since it functions independently from any gears (although it won't cut in at walking-pace! 6 km/h minimum speed on my car, as stated in the manual)

What you Interjmt and BlueFlame are going on about is NOT 'ABS', but the more advanced stability management systems present in newer cars. They might (in their individual implementation) integrate with the ABS-function to assure best results - but they are originally designed for another purpose and thereby named seperately. I guess that's all what it was: a name-confusion of all things :thumbsup:

[Patrick v H]

Also, the Mitsubishi starion (which the XRG/XRT is based on) only had single channel anti-lock on the rear wheels.

I find it odd they would put it only on the rears, but thats what all my sources say.
Well, try to lock your rear wheels without locking your front wheels ;)

[Heiko1]

take Handbrake :P

[senn]

ABS on most older cars was only meant to help you be able to steer (ie not lock the wheels so you could attempt to steer around obstacle) not really decrease braking distances. just my 2cents worth.

[mortenmorfar]

on a real car the ABS works what ever way you are going, it just senses if your car is moving but the wheel's aren't, then it releases the pressure on the brakes, so it starts to rotate again.

[hagenisse]

it is possible to stop more quickly with ABS disabled, especially on track
Not on track..? Why do race cars use it (in series where its allowed of course) then?

[The Radness]

Not on track..? Why do race cars use it (in series where its allowed of course) then?

So they can still steer around a crash and not slide into it.:shrug:

[AstroBoy]

To my knowledge and what ive got from this thread is that.
ABS can decrease the stopping distance to avoid a crash but it also allows you steer around a crash if you cannot pull the car up in time, without the fear of locking the brakes.

Thats what ive pulled from it, please dont hurt me

Also Mazda 3 hatch, ABS works in reverse

[simon2]

It's important to have ABS both if you go forward or backwards. If you didn't have ABS there would be a great risk that the car either will understeer or spin around when you brake. A car without ABS always stop faster if it's going in a straight line but when it comes to braking and turning at the same thime, the ABS is almost a must. Otherwise it will be really hard to steer. Specialy when going backwards and you have say 75% braking on the front wheels that act as backwheels atm.

[zoopy juice]

Just to stop all the confusion about antilock brakes that are going on in this thread (dont actually know why someone hasnt done this yet)

Quote from the highway code section 120 http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070304

ABS. If your vehicle is fitted with anti-lock brakes, you should follow the advice given in the vehicle handbook. However, in the case of an emergency, apply the footbrake firmly; do not release the pressure until the vehicle has slowed to the desired speed. The ABS should ensure that steering control will be retained, but do not assume that a vehicle with ABS will stop in a shorter distance.

For those who dont know what the highway code is, its basically the rules of the road over here in the UK

[heson]

Not on track..? Why do race cars use it (in series where its allowed of course) then?

So they can have a more break % on the rear and break deeper into the turn without spinning.

[Bluebird B B]

Obviously, a human with one pedal vs a system that can brake each wheel independently isnt really a fair match..


People can brake better then abs if conditions are (more or less) constant like on track, however on public road, you never know exactly how much grip there is and how exactly the brakes will perform when hit hard after hardly being used for some time. That' s why on public road having abs is much saver for most people.

Also, what you describe is a stability-control system, abs is a much simpler system. If just reduces brake-force to avoid the lockup of any tyre and it would be very dangerous to this on one side of a car at a time. Left and right-brakebalance must always be exactly 50,0-50,0 or you gonna need a:littleangin case of an emercency stop. (except if your car also has a stability-system equipped)

[RIP2004]

Those opinions about ABS having longer brake distances is out of date.

This was the case with early ABS Systems, which didn't react quick enough.

Today ABS is very fast and will get the tires to about 20-40% slip. 30% would be for the perfect stopping power and a lot better than locked wheels. If it will even get faster, it will be even closer to 30%.

Just watch here at about 2.20:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSqGPyWroes&feature=related

This is a braking test with exactly the same kind of new car and the same new tires on perfectly easy and dry conditions.
In one car wheels are just locked and the other uses ABS.

In the wet the difference is even more significant.

The only situation where ABS is possibly braking less is on snow or a lot of dirt on the street. A locked wheel will then push it in front of the wheel and it helps stopping. So a locked wheels is better in those situation.

Today ABS Plus will be used in cars. This takes into account these situations and will lock the wheels a bit to use this also.

A usual driver will always lock the wheels a bit if braking hard without ABS and therefore have a longer brakingway.
A very good driver can try to get the wheel as close to those 30% as possible. But I bet he won't beat a modern ABS System which interacts many times per second.

So longer braking ways are of the old days where ABS was reacting slowly and only a few times per second. Today it will always be at least as good as a good driver, but most times even better. And nobody has to concentrate ... just hit the brakes hard and you can concentrate on steering and other stuff.

But one thing is right: ABS was developed mainly to preserve the possibility of steering around an obstacle while braking hard and not to have the shortest possible way, because that was at that time not the case. A good driver could do this too by just not locking the wheels ... ;)

[hagenisse]

If I remember correctly they tried abs in DTM during the early 90's (long time ago..) and lap times where reduced - with several seconds. It got banned fairly fast..

Modern abs does not just reduce braking pressure, it tries to optimum brake each wheel individually - something that just isnt possible for a human to do with one pedal.

[RIP2004]

Modern ABS is better. It is even used in some races ... and always an advantage :) But it is often forbidden to show driving skills instead ;)

[ma70nismoEd]

LOL at this thread.

reverse driving is getting pretty intense nowadays aint it?

[bbman]

Those opinions about ABS having longer brake distances is out of date.

This was the case with early ABS Systems, which didn't react quick enough.

Today ABS is very fast and will get the tires to about 20-40% slip. 30% would be for the perfect stopping power and a lot better than locked wheels. If it will even get faster, it will be even closer to 30%.

Just watch here at about 2.20:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSqGPyWroes&feature=related

This is a braking test with exactly the same kind of new car and the same new tires on perfectly easy and dry conditions.
In one car wheels are just locked and the other uses ABS.

In the wet the difference is even more significant.

The only situation where ABS is possibly braking less is on snow or a lot of dirt on the street. A locked wheel will then push it in front of the wheel and it helps stopping. So a locked wheels is better in those situation.

Today ABS Plus will be used in cars. This takes into account these situations and will lock the wheels a bit to use this also.

A usual driver will always lock the wheels a bit if braking hard without ABS and therefore have a longer brakingway.
A very good driver can try to get the wheel as close to those 30% as possible. But I bet he won't beat a modern ABS System which interacts many times per second.

So longer braking ways are of the old days where ABS was reacting slowly and only a few times per second. Today it will always be at least as good as a good driver, but most times even better. And nobody has to concentrate ... just hit the brakes hard and you can concentrate on steering and other stuff.

But one thing is right: ABS was developed mainly to preserve the possibility of steering around an obstacle while braking hard and not to have the shortest possible way, because that was at that time not the case. A good driver could do this too by just not locking the wheels ... ;)

One FATAL flaw in your thinking: this only shows what a numpty would do, namely lock the wheels and compare that to the wonder that is ABS... Never trust a statistic you didn't forge yourself...

ABS makes sense if a) you have an unskilled driver at the wheel (which unfortunately most are), or b) you have to steer while braking hard...

[RIP2004]

A usual driver will always lock the wheels a bit if braking hard without ABS and therefore have a longer brakingway.
A very good driver can try to get the wheel as close to those 30% as possible. But I bet he won't beat a modern ABS System which interacts many times per second.



@bbman : What do you think I wanted to say with this? ;)

Sure, a good driver won't lock the wheels completly for the whole braking distance like in the youtube clip. So the difference won't be as big or he is even as short as the ABS car.
But I would bet he can't beat a modern ABS, which regulates over 10 times a second and can release every single tire break.

Racing ABS Systems, if allowed, are even more efficient. I saw somewhere a clip where Sabine Schmitz (who won the 24h race at Nuerburgring in Germany and was third last year) was happy to have ABS in her racing car. And she IS a hell of a driver.

Take modern very fast cars ... like Porsche for example. ESP (called PSM at Porsche) can be switched off for very fast driving.
Can ABS be turned off in any modern car? Even for a racing track day?
No? Ask yourself why ;) The very old Audi 100 of my grandpa had this feature ;)

[Riel]

Pull the fuse and ABS is off, quite easy.



Still, when it comes to simulation ...

When the ABS hits in, i would NEED to feel it in 1) the brakepedal!! (today's FF don't have it), and 2) in steering wheel.

Well, I think making a mod that ticks the brakepedal is possible to get the feeling. But LFS would have to send a signal out. Too bad i am really not into this things.


How can I corner while ABS is hitting in, and I don't feel a thing about it ... I'd turn it off and feel my wheels block ;)

[loopingz]

Old ABS at least will perform with around the same braking distance as locked wheel, a perfect braking without locking remaining a bit better. Now there are abs working better, the ones used in F1 were not so bad even if it felt strange to some drivers (pedal to the metal and dont think!).
Take a normal car on a gravel road, and you see how much it can suck...

[dollarek]

Just tested on my car renault megane II and abs works on reverse

[MijnWraak]

Pull the fuse and ABS is off, quite easy.



Still, when it comes to simulation ...

When the ABS hits in, i would NEED to feel it in 1) the brakepedal!! (today's FF don't have it), and 2) in steering wheel.

Well, I think making a mod that ticks the brakepedal is possible to get the feeling. But LFS would have to send a signal out. Too bad i am really not into this things.


How can I corner while ABS is hitting in, and I don't feel a thing about it ... I'd turn it off and feel my wheels block ;)
If you engage abs and steer a bit to left or right, the wheel pulsates, so its pretty easy to tell if ABS is engaged.

[Riel]

Didn't think of that ;)

* you have dutch nick, any story behind that? *

[NightShift]

Just for the record, the new Fanatec wheel has a rumble effect on the brake pedal to simulate ABS action. I don't think that is supported in LFS though.

[Warper]

Also there is one other side ABS function. ABS also helps you to maintain straight line braking when your car is on different surfaces, for egg. left side on tarmac, other on mud. In such conditions when braking wheels on more slippery surface would lock quicker than on other, so car would start to spin at that direction. ABS as you all already know has ability to apply pressure to each wheel independently so it applies less pressure on those who are on gripper surface maintaining full control of the car.

Nope, actually not. If you have a ų-split situation (different friction on the sides of the car) and ABS would limit all tyres to the maximum slip, it would actually do exactly what you do not want it to do. Because the braking force on one side would be a lot higher because of the higher friction and the result would be a yaw-momentum around the vertical axis of the car, which would result in a self accelerating spin without countersteering by the driver. Thats why some ABS really suck on ų-split, for example the MK6 Ford Fiesta (even the ST i used to have) really sucked on these conditions, on several test i used all the testtrack length and more to stop. Why? Because the Ford engineers where over carefully, they let the ABS limit the brake pressure to the Minimum, to the maximum possible brake pressure without blocking the low-friction side. Result: No yaw-momentum, no need for countersteering but a very long brake distance.

Thats one of the reason there has been a ESP-2/ESP-2+ development, howerer its named in different cars. Its adding steering force to the steering shaft, so the car does the countersteering on its own, while braking as hard as possible and still going in the right direction.

Regards,
Steffen

[Chris P]

Nope, actually not. If you have a ų-split situation (different friction on the sides of the car) and ABS would limit all tyres to the maximum slip, it would actually do exactly what you do not want it to do. Because the braking force on one side would be a lot higher because of the higher friction and the result would be a yaw-momentum around the vertical axis of the car, which would result in a self accelerating spin without countersteering by the driver. Thats why some ABS really suck on ų-split, for example the MK6 Ford Fiesta (even the ST i used to have) really sucked on these conditions, on several test i used all the testtrack length and more to stop. Why? Because the Ford engineers where over carefully, they let the ABS limit the brake pressure to the Minimum, to the maximum possible brake pressure without blocking the low-friction side. Result: No yaw-momentum, no need for countersteering but a very long brake distance.

Thats one of the reason there has been a ESP-2/ESP-2+ development, howerer its named in different cars. Its adding steering force to the steering shaft, so the car does the countersteering on its own, while braking as hard as possible and still going in the right direction.

Regards,
Steffen

I imagine the last thing you mentioned be implemented when parking assist becomes more common. The technologies are combined nowadays and that's the beauty of these CAN network systems. The speed/force of the countersteering is what would worry me though. Anyway... that's slightly off-topic.

As for the straightline braking... that might be the case in some cars, but definitely not always as I myself have experienced in a relatively modern VW Polo ('07 model).

[Warper]

I imagine the last thing you mentioned be implemented when parking assist becomes more common. The technologies are combined nowadays and that's the beauty of these CAN network systems. The speed/force of the countersteering is what would worry me though. Anyway... that's slightly off-topic.

As for the straightline braking... that might be the case in some cars, but definitely not always as I myself have experienced in a relatively modern VW Polo ('07 model).

ESP 2+ including steering force is already integrated in all the new BMW since the E90 3series, I dont know about other brands, i bet atleast Mercedes is already par.

And what do you have experienced in your Polo? Dont really get you :)

Regards,
Steffen

[Audrius]

Tested today on snow my HONDA CIVIC 2008 5D. ABS works in reverse. ;) in LFS it will work too :) LFS is LFS :)

[Chris P]

And what do you have experienced in your Polo? Dont really get you :)

While braking on motorway from +/- 110 km/h ABS kicked in, but car didn't maintain a straight line. I had to steer a bit.

[Warper]

While braking on motorway from +/- 110 km/h ABS kicked in, but car didn't maintain a straight line. I had to steer a bit.

Exactly my point, i prefer the VW version. Most of the people will be able to countersteer a bit (even though i dont know if it should really be called countersteering or just steering in this case) instead of not being able to brake at all (The Ford way of life) :)

[Bluebird B B]

As for the straightline braking... that might be the case in some cars, but definitely not always as I myself have experienced in a relatively modern VW Polo ('07 model).

Be carefull with modern cars, the abs might using some features of the esp, because on a lot of recent cars the esp option is just a software switch with a few extra sensors fitted.

[DragonCommando]

You can just post the replay, but I suppose you should post your .lyt file too, since i'm sure some people will want to try it


I appologize for not responding sooner, My internet was cut off at home. I'm on a laptop right now.

I'll post the replays and layout in a new thread at some point.

[janipewter]

My car is 10 years old and the ABS works in reverse. Don't ask me how I know this, it's a long story.

[UnknownMaster21]

LOL at this thread.

reverse driving is getting pretty intense nowadays aint it?

yeah let's do some reverse driving cup.

RDC :thumb:

[DrBen]

yeah let's do some reverse driving cup.

I'll be there with you, too :D

[Kazu2799]

How can ABS be a nuisence? It's a life saver and only kicks in when you need it so it's impossible for it to become a nuisence.... Your cars ecu must be ****in crazy.

sorry dude but abs on icy/heavy snow condition is bs, i can do alot better without it. It's not bad on dry/wet condition but i still prefer using "my own" foot to brake.

And i really don't see why ABS would not work in reverse... it's kinda useless though lol

[ice63de]

sorry dude but abs on icy/heavy snow condition is bs, i can do alot better without it. It's not bad on dry/wet condition but i still prefer using "my own" foot to brake.

And i really don't see why ABS would not work in reverse... it's kinda useless though lol

Sorry but you are totally wrong!

ABS is very important on wet, icy and heavy snow. Because it allows to fully push the breaks without locking the tieres and you can still stear the car under breaking and reduce the chance to spin. The only disadvantage of ABS is a increased breaking distance in dry conditions.

You may mixed ABS up with ESP (DTC) on icy/heavy snow. ESP should be disabled in these conditions. Read your car's operating manual. :)

[RIP2004]

@ice :

You are mixing something up ;)

ABS is bad on snow, but good on the dry and really good in the wet. At least not worse than a good driver, better than a bad driver.

On Snow manual braking WITH locking wheels will result in a shorter braking way. The snow is pushed in front of the tyres and helps braking. You can't steer but you can stop earlier. So it depends if you should release the break.

Really modern ABS (ABS Plus) though will lock the wheels automaticly for short periods on snow to push it in front.

So modern (!) ABS is better in 99% of the cases than an average driver and most times as good as a pretty good driver.
Racing ABS is always better ...

[emreerokyar]

i wonder how long topics we will see when esp/esc (which i guess is a much more complex system compared to an abs) will be released on lfs. looking forward to.. lol

[emreerokyar]

also, doesn't anyone has anything to tell about static/dynamic friction forces which i learnt while i was in highschool? i guess it should be talked about in such a long discussion going on abs and locking wheels and stopping distance and friction etc...

[Kazu2799]

Sorry but you are totally wrong!

ABS is very important on wet, icy and heavy snow. Because it allows to fully push the breaks without locking the tieres and you can still stear the car under breaking and reduce the chance to spin. The only disadvantage of ABS is a increased breaking distance in dry conditions.

You may mixed ABS up with ESP (DTC) on icy/heavy snow. ESP should be disabled in these conditions. Read your car's operating manual. :)


True ABS is good on the wet and dry(altought i've never experienced it even under heavy breaking situation(went to a race track with my mom's 06 civic) but on ice/snow it's scary, it feels like you don't control whats happening with the brakes and on ice it feels like the car will never stop. But i guess for an average driver they are still beter then normal brakes

[The Stig PL]

my E30's ABS is working in reverse

[JackCY]

my E30's ABS is working in reverse

yeah why not, ABS got nothing to do with which way are you going or which gear you are on
in normal cars it is a separated brake system, in those new shitty full of electronic cars it is for sure connted with stabilisation system etc. and it that can apply brakes on its own... but never heard a thing of automaticswitching off ABS on reverse

[Mojo1987]

Well Fiat Panda 1.2 (BJ 2006) - ABS works in reverse.

[janipewter]

What a ridiculous argument this is.

Since most of you have no idea what you are talking about, I will clear some things up.

The anti-lock braking system is designed to help the driver maintain steering control under maximum braking by preventing the wheels from locking from excessive brake pressure in emergency situations. It is not designed to make you stop faster. Although on some surfaces, this is a side effect of the system. I won't go into specifics but it's all about forces, rolling and sliding friction, etc etc. On a dry asphalt road you'll stop faster with locked wheels. On a very wet asphalt road you'll stop faster with ABS. On ice you will stop faster with ABS. On very loose gravel, snow, mud etc, you will stop faster with locked wheels, and on these particular surfaces it will take what seems like a lifetime to stop with ABS.

Simply put, ABS is there to help you brake really hard and steer at the same time. It's not to stop you faster.

Yes ABS does work in reverse. But I don't see the need for it to. If you find yourself in a situation where you are going backwards fast enough to warrant the use of ABS then you've severly messed up somewhere, and in such a situation, locked wheels would probably help you more than ABS. Remember, ABS helps you brake and steer. If you're going backwards at 50mph, why on earth would you need to steer? You'd want to stop as fast as possible, and if you're in a spin, ABS will not help.

And the system does of course have its limits, as I found out the hard way when I may have taken a corner too fast on a country lane, I went into a spin and ABS could do nothing to help me, only the wall that I hit could stop me then. Situations like that are where you want ESP, to prevent the spin in the first place.

[S14 DRIFT]

Finally, someone actually knows what they're talking about.

+1 to you mate.

[NightShift]

I hope you're being ironic S14. If locking wheels was the fastest way to stop on asphalt, then all the fuss about cadence braking what would be? elitism? :really:

Bullshit:

On a dry asphalt road you'll stop faster with locked wheels.
Scientific reply to bullshit:

Track test data clearly shows that for most manoeuvres stopping distance are smaller in ABS-fitted than non-ABS fitted vehicles, particularly on wet or icy surfaces. Exceptions are on dry bitumen, where braking performance at higher speed (>35-50 km/h) with ABS is greater than locked wheel braking.(*)

Get over it, most of us will never be better than ABS and no amount of ABS bashing will change this. If you think you are the mythological skilled driver, go to a track and see for yourself - if you do not have the money for a trackday, that's not a good excuse to wrap yourself around a tree on a public road - you know innocent bystanders have the nasty habit to be around when shit happens.

Every sunday I could just open the newspaper and then post here the names of some kids who thought to be the new Schumachers. But really the only way they could get a headline with their driving is hugging that tree in their dad's car.

as I found out the hard way when I may have taken a corner too fast on a country lane

ESP won't do naff if you go into corners too fast. The lesson to be learnt here is: drive slower, you never know what's behind the corner on a public road.

(*) excerpt from http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/Other/RACV%20ABS%20braking%20system%20effectiveness.pdf

[freddyalek90]

I hope [...] road.
What he said. :thumb:

[S14 DRIFT]

blah blah blah

The anti-lock braking system is designed to help the driver maintain steering control under maximum braking by preventing the wheels from locking from excessive brake pressure in emergency situations. It is not designed to make you stop faster. Although on some surfaces, this is a side effect of the system.

Fact.

[freddyalek90]

Fact.

Ok, noone can argue that. But, in most of the situations, it does; it's a side effect, if you want to call it like that.
For us, normally experienced drivers that can't cadence brake (or that can in theory, but in an emergency stop panic and press the pedal to the floor), a car with ABS is just better, because it lets you go around the obstacle AND it makes you stop faster. Full stop.

[S14 DRIFT]

Yup, and I never denied that fact. That said a while ago in Bike or RiDE (Motorcycle stuff I know :really:), it had an experienced racer aboard 2 bikes. Both exactly the same (I think they were CB1000Fs), but one had ABS and the other didn't. The racer could stop quicker without ABS, but a normal road rider stopped faster with ABS, so it's just down to experience and feel. :tilt:

[NightShift]

Fact. (It's not designed to make you stop faster)

The fact is ABS stops faster than most drivers on most surface types. A number of indipendent tests have been made over the years and the outcome is always the same.

ABS truly is 'electronic cadence braking', better performance hardly is a side effect or by-product. ABS was marketed in another way, true, but that's marketing, i.e. bullshit someone has to say to sell things better.

And mind you S14, I was not blaming you for missing the BS in the post above yours - actually I thought you were being ironic, this stuff has been going on for so long we're all sick of it.

My post was actually trying to make a broader statement about the ever-going 'ABS yes or no' argument.

[DragonCommando]

I say ABS should be an option in LFS, but it should be realistic to the car, ABS on the starion (xrt/xrg) should be rear wheels only and single channel.

As far as the debate about what ABS is designed for, I already stated the facts, the REAL facts. ABS is NOT designed to stop your car, it IS designed to give you steering control/prevent spins.

On the starion the implementation of ABS was intended to prevent the car from spinning when you mashed on the brakes and turned the wheel, the front wheels could still lock if you realy pushed on the pedal, but the rears would not, allowing you to get maximum brake force from the front wheels without locking the rears.

The problem with that was that drivers would just mash the pedal and lock the fronts, so future systems included the fronts in the ABS system. A car stopping faster from ABS is a happy accident of the design and not its intended function.

I started this debate when I tried to tell people the truth about ABS, this is not something I just said because I belived it true, I learned this information while working on and learning about brake systems. Any experianced mechanic who has read the proper books on ABS systems will tell you exactly the same as I have. I have yet to find any book that says ABS is to stop the car faster, they all say it is designed to allow steering control in a panic situation.

As a note on that, NEVER listen to car dealers about what things in your car do, they will almost always give you wrong or incomplete information.

I realy hope people will listen to me, I have read the books, looked at the studies and talked to people with alot more knowlege/experiance about it than myself, and they all say the same.

Lets just put this one to bed people, shall we?

[Flame CZE]

I say ABS should be an option in LFS
It is. :scratchch

[DragonCommando]

It is. :scratchch

Then let me re-state that, ABS should stay an option in LFS.

[Mojo1987]

Well, VW Scirocco 1.4l 160hp TSI - ABS works in Reverse.

[bbman]

Well, VW Scirocco 1.4l 160hp TSI - ABS works in Reverse.

:rofl: Scared the living sh*t out of the poor salesman/owner trying that out?

[S14 DRIFT]

Maybe he bought one. :D

[Mojo1987]

Yes i bought one. Got my car on friday and tested it out last saturday.
Can upload some pics if you would see my car ;)

Edit:
Here there are already 2 pics in my racing teams forum. they want to paint my car in teamskins *scared*

http://forum.lightning-racing.de/showthread.php?tid=262&pid=4780#pid4780

[Neoman15M]

Just for your information, ABS in LFS does work both ways.........I am a Reverse driver and Erm, why would you want ABS in reverse, wether its in LFS or real life... Not like you race backwards... In real life maybe in snowy conditions it can be useful (even then lockups are easy to get) but in LFS where you're sopose to be racing or whatever I doupt you need ABS in reverse O_O.

Wait, after thinking about this, I just realised that it happened to me sometimes that I crash or something and while backing up and braking I lock up. But meh, not really THAT important. yes i DO RACE/drive in reverse. That said, the system needs refining. Say i was travelling down a straight in reverse in a FZ5 at 220kmh..........i saw a car pull out from the grass and i swerved to avoid him. When it's time to brake, the car 's steering/body dynamics (i mean by body roll etc) not straight.......the rear wheels can start to lock, but the left/right wheels take turns to lock so the car seems to be wavering.......definitely need refining this system.

[STF]

Just for your information, ABS in LFS does work both ways..

Shh, it did not, before this thread.:thumbsup::)

[Schoultz]

In my opinion the best way to learn cadence branking is to use a car that lacks the feature of abs. (Normally a car from mid-90's or older)
Take a wet road, a cardboard box (or similar to avoid damage), and a spot where there's no traffic and stuff to accidentally hit in case anything bad happens. Then speed up and try to stop as close to the box as possible, raising the speed each time to really learn what speed does with brake distance.

How I learned this technique is basically by not having ABS in my car (Volvo 440 2.0 '94) and as I tend to drive quite fast I've had some "training". The car is really lightweight, which makes it somewhat more difficult (in my opinion) to get any grip when braking on wet surfaces.

I think it's mostly a factor of panic or hesitation that prevents most drivers to not use the technique only because they want to stop as fast as they can. (Duh')

[EeekiE]

The only way to learn braking is in an 80's VW Polo.

Unstable front suspension with a single arm located by an ARB.
Boat like steering.
No ABS.
No vaccuum assisted servo.
Solid discs with single-piston sliding caliper up front (overheat really fast)
Drums at rear.

I love the ABS on my RX-7. It's really unobtrusive, and when you DO floor the brake pedal, you can hear the front wheels chirping right on the edge.

Not like my dads numb plastic feeling civilised Audi.

[plehto]

What a ridiculous argument this is.
On a dry asphalt road you'll stop faster with locked wheels. On a very wet asphalt road you'll stop faster with ABS. On ice you will stop faster with ABS. On very loose gravel, snow, mud etc, you will stop faster with locked wheels, and on these particular surfaces it will take what seems like a lifetime to stop with ABS.
And the ridiculousness goes on. Dry and wet asphalt behave somewhat the same regarding slip ratio - braking force. The optimum is achieved with 10-30 % slip and there is a ~30% reduction in braking force with a locked tyre. This is reflected in a finnish test, where using non-studded winter tyres braking distance on dry asphalt increased from 32 m on ABS to 45 m on locked tyres.
On loose surfaces and ice, a locked tyre will yield a shorter braking distance. On loose surfaces partly due to the tyre digging into the ground. Also in test conditions threshold braking on ice demonstrated significant gains over a locked tyre(191 m - 230 m). It is worth mentioning that in emergency braking situations nobody will be able to perform threshold braking to it's full potential.
www.autoshop101.com/forms/brake09.pdf (http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/brake09.pdf) Here you go, page 3.

All of these test results are from straight line braking. While cornering ABS benefits from being able to control each brake individually to achieve the system's desired slip ratio. With conventional brakes, no matter who the driver is, you will be unable to do this due to different loads on each tyre and having only one pedal, d'uh :Looking_a


Yes ABS does work in reverse. But I don't see the need for it to. If you find yourself in a situation where you are going backwards fast enough to warrant the use of ABS then you've severly messed up somewhere, and in such a situation, locked wheels would probably help you more than ABS. Remember, ABS helps you brake and steer. If you're going backwards at 50mph, why on earth would you need to steer? You'd want to stop as fast as possible, and if you're in a spin, ABS will not help.
I give you props for your logic 'ABS helps to steer'->'You don't need to steer while reversing fast'->'ABS will not help'. However that isnt the reality. There might be some buddhist thinking behind not needing to steer while reversing, but I'm not familiar with that religion.

The reason why ABS would be needed on reverse is simple. Due to brake bias of the car, which in traditional systems is achieved with a pressure regulator for the rear brakes, you will not get much brake force to the rear tyres that act as front tyres. You'll also lock up the fronts, causing tyres to loose their lateral traction and make you prone to spin. With ABS brakes more brake pressure can be applied to the rear brakes. This in combination with the front brakes not locking up (while reversing) will yield in a much shorter braking distance with much greater stability. Which, by the way, happens to be one of the key benefits of ABS: you will maintain directional stability even when one side of the car is on ice and the other on asphalt.

Oh and just my favorite quote to end this post:
Since most of you have no idea what you are talking about, I will clear some things up.

[BlueFlame]

Not like my dads numb plastic feeling civilised Audi.
You drive an RX7 yet you think an Audi feels plastic? You got somethin real wrong in your head boy.

[apo3d]

what the about the menu option found in options / player / brake help ?
the one that can be toggled on/off...
it seems to be a really slow abs, or better yet one of the first versions of the abs system as it only works on all four wheels at once.

[91mason91]

:thumbsup:

[S14 DRIFT]

:thumbsup:

Excellent post.

[Gaz00m]

LMAO
i subscribe to the test patch section of the forums, eagerly waiting for the next LFS update (so i dont get too obsessed and check every day)... and this is all i get... a thumbs up

[91mason91]

Excellent post.

LMAO
i subscribe to the test patch section of the forums, eagerly waiting for the next LFS update (so i dont get too obsessed and check every day)... and this is all i get... a thumbs up

hehehehehe

[Kazu2799]

bought my first car during last winter! an 01 civic with no abs (crappy brakes in general) and average winter tyres. Let me tell you that without abs I have way more control over braking/handling in snow/ice condition then I had in my mom's civic(with abs). Now that the snow is gone i've been able to check for a difference between abs and non abs on a dry road : pretty unexistant =/ --> about the same braking distance, I can brake in a curve in both cars without any problems. My opignion stays the same, abs is an useless piece of technology for anyone who really knows how to drive which, in quebec atleast, means... about 15% of the population :D.

P.S. ABS do work in reverse on a civic, I've tried it during last winter :nod:

[Whiskey]

ABS is one of those things that you think are useles until they save you from a huge crash. Even in most emergency brakings it doesn't make a difference, but in one it does...

Plus, ABS is the basis of the ESP (in cars with ESP xD).

[Kazu2799]

I guess you are right whiskey, with one exception : ice --> abs does not give you any more control then non abs in any situation simply because there just not enough control/grip to begin with rendering pretty much everything useless (when you hit an ice pad and the tyres looses all their grip theres not much to do but wait until you they regain some)

[Whiskey]

Yes, in ice it does not make any difference. And in snow/gravel it could be better block a bit the tires to "sink" a bit in the terrain and stop earlier, but thats not probably in a normal road to happen.

[Jakg]

Since most of you have no idea what you are talking about, I will clear some things up.

On a dry asphalt road you'll stop faster with locked wheels
Thanks for clearing that up.

*files your facts under "B" for "bullshit"*

[spook113]

greeting all simply abs walks as well forward as behind for the simple reason that this toujour the meme sisteme of stopping....

[Whiskey]

greeting all simply abs walks as well forward as behind for the simple reason that this toujour the meme sisteme of stopping....

Going in reverse could show negative speed, that could make ABS not able to work if the software is not prepared to work

[S14 DRIFT]

Thanks for clearing that up.

*files your facts under "B" for "bullshit"*

A skilled driver can stop faster without ABS than with in most cases...most ABS triggers are very sensitive (Like the Toyota Prius) which means that the ABS is going off before the actual limit of the tyres grip....

I read a test in one of my bike mags where a bike without ABS was able to stop quicker at the hands of a skilled rider (not me) than with ABS. However a regular average Joe stopped more quickly with the ABS.

On a wet surface, ABS was quicker across the board. However as it's a similar sort of though, the same would very likely be true about cars.

[E.Reiljans]

skilled rider (not me)http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_F9FG-FUxs9g/TP_bkDvormI/AAAAAAAAC5M/5LLZFis-K5o/s1600/Captain%2BObvious.jpg

Sorry, I couldn't resist :D

[S14 DRIFT]

:/

[Jakg]

A skilled driver can stop faster without ABS than with in most cases...most ABS triggers are very sensitive (Like the Toyota Prius) which means that the ABS is going off before the actual limit of the tyres grip....
As a technology, ABS should beat an ordinary driver.

ABS for a start, can control all 4 wheels independently which *no* driver can, and it can also keep recalculating 500 times a second.

You can't use "bad" ABS (single channel or just over-active) as an example unless you also compare a bad driver to good ABS.

Bikes are quite different - you've got more roll (up front) that you can get away with, and also there's only two wheels which the rider can independently modulate. You don't get this in a car.

My ABS is actually fairly good in terms of activation (at least, on tarmac - on gravel it's useless), but theres no way I can stop quicker without it.

[S14 DRIFT]

If you read what I wrote you'd see it's basically wha you've written.

And the braking tests were performed with the front brake only. The rear brake adds extremely little to the overall stopping of the motorcycle, I hardly used mine unless I wanted to help keep the rear from spinning while exiting a very fast corner, or trailed it throughout to keep the nose pointing where I want it to.

Ah well.

[DrBen]

As a technology, ABS should beat an ordinary driver.

ABS for a start, can control all 4 wheels independently which *no* driver can, and it can also keep recalculating 500 times a second.

ABS as it started out was a system to help keeping the wheels from locking-up through independently triggered automatic brake-pressure-interrupts. Earlier systems like I am driving up to this day and age don't have the benefit of the contemporary-fast computing capacity found in today's systems. So they will behave a little worse at times. For example on uneven, loose surfaces like freshly fallen snow residing on a thicker conditioned layer of snow with a few holes in there where tarmac and icy-tarmac shines through. In Germany where spikes are prohibited from actual use (destroys the road surfaces that get built here) these systems will probably get tuned for maximum safety through consistency. Not for maximum stopping-power under all circumstances and road-conditions. Naturally this means such systems will interfere at a very early stage in the "drama of loosing grip".


You can't use "bad" ABS (single channel or just over-active) as an example unless you also compare a bad driver to good ABS.

I just returned from test-driving my next car (yes it was on Friday 13th...) and I did the compulsory braking tests that every good driver knows they should be included into the process of test-driving a car. And I didn't trigger the ABS. Since a '2006 model could not possibly have left it's Japanese factory withouth it (call me an anti-patriot, if you so will, for having driven our old Family's Mercedes E220 auto-sedan for more than 10 years without crash, even though the seating and positioning are clearly not made for my hight which is 186cm) I came back to the dealer and asked the inevitable question:
Does it really have ABS? I made the tyres squeel, I felt the stopping power and evaluated it more than average and more than enough for German country roads where I will be using it most of the time. That said, I was amazed that the pedal had this much feel and that I didn't trigger the ABS (i.e. didn't lock the wheels at all) on all of the 4-5 tries where I had the chance to put my foot down. Funnily the dealer's spokes-woman didn't know what to answer me and instead explained to me (thoroughly and rather without fail) what the ABS is really for and so forth. I listened whole-heartedly and remembered this thread...

Bikes are quite different - you've got more roll (up front) that you can get away with, and also there's only two wheels which the rider can independently modulate. You don't get this in a car.

My ABS is actually fairly good in terms of activation (at least, on tarmac - on gravel it's useless), but theres no way I can stop quicker without it.

Well - for racing bikes I guess this is a useless debate. For road-bikes this might be a helpful tool for less-experienced riders. But why no ABS-off switch for those that want to play with their bikes - and some of those, that even want to play with their lifes at stake (and that of other people)?

To cut a long story short: People who say, it was not originally planned to make a car (/bike / boat) stop in less of a distance, are absolutely and spot-on on the right track.

But what was originally planned 25 years ago, is yesterday's news, anyway!

[L@gger]

I think you need to be an expert bike driver to say you dont need ABS. You can know the braking limits but if you get to abnormal situation with a oil/sand on ground you can press front brake a little more than its traction limit and you are a death man. Instead in a car you will just feel the locked tyre / understeer. I also thought how easy it is as I know the limits but little sand in turn and I was lying on the ground.

Anyway. Im pretty sure that in some today cars is ABS shortening the braking lenght. Some can 15 times a second mechanically open valves. Braking the every single wheel with different torque at the traction limit.