FFB Understeer

[danowat]

Is there anyway to get the "light" wheel feeling on an FFB wheel in LFS?, its something thats present in RL (and GTL :)) and something that would be nice to have in LFS.

Sorry if this has asked before, I did a search and nothing came up.

Dan,

[steve]

It'll never be added, to may people think its a 'canned' effect :rolleyes: when it happens in real life..

[danowat]

It'll never be added, to may people think its a 'canned' effect :rolleyes: when it happens in real life..

Really, thats a shame, for something like LFS, that people say is very realistic, to leave out an effect that happens alot IRL.

"Canned" or not

Dan,

[steve]

Ya its to bad, at least have an option for the 'canned' effects so the hardcores wont cry about it :wahh:

[shim]

every so often i do find i get the feeling of understeer throught me wheel.. but it aint that often tho..

[danowat]

But how can the so called "hardcores" say the the FF in LFS is so much better than sim X, when it doesnt even give you feedback from understeer that you get in a real car.
TBH, I was really expecting something a bit better from a FF wheel than I got, sure its more realistic using a wheel controller than a pad, but the way people "big up" the FF in LFS I am a touch dissapointed.
Not saying the FF in GTL is brilliant, its not, its wheel weighting is "vibey", but it does an excellent job of conveying the feeling of a slide or an understeer condition, and TBH I am a bit shocked LFS doesnt.
A cross between the 2 would be great though.

Dan,

[Woz]

Really, thats a shame, for something like LFS, that people say is very realistic, to leave out an effect that happens alot IRL.

"Canned" or not

Dan,


LFS FFB works from the forces being applied to the front wheels of the car which in turn send forces up the steering column. This is what you feel through your wheel.

It gives a very detailed FFB once you "tune" in to it.

[danowat]

OK, so how do I "tune" it to give me realistic understeer FFB?.

Dan,

[Woz]

But how can the so called "hardcores" say the the FF in LFS is so much better than sim X, when it doesnt even give you feedback from understeer that you get in a real car.
TBH, I was really expecting something a bit better from a FF wheel than I got, sure its more realistic using a wheel controller than a pad, but the way people "big up" the FF in LFS I am a touch dissapointed.
Not saying the FF in GTL is brilliant, its not, its wheel weighting is "vibey", but it does an excellent job of conveying the feeling of a slide or an understeer condition, and TBH I am a bit shocked LFS doesnt.
A cross between the 2 would be great though.

Dan,

Head to an EMPTY carpark in your car and try some understeer in a safe way. Pay attention to what you are feeling from where.

Most of the understeer feel will be from the change in G on your body as it levels or drops, depending on how bad the understeer. In the steering you notice more the build up of pressure stop, not the no force effect the ISI engine gives. The wheels go light in LFS during wheelspin as they would IRL.

What LFS lets you feel better than any other sim is the car weight and once you know how the weight is distributed you know what the car is doing.

[danowat]

I'll try it out, I don't hold out much hope because as it is it doesnt feel REAL, regardless of whether it lets you know what the car is doing, G levels etc etc, it just doesnt feel like the effect you get in a real car, in a real car once you are understeering and the front tyres have little or no grip the steering is very light, something that LFS just doesnt convey.
Maybe I was just expecting to much?.

Dan,

[mrbogeyman]

IIRC there is a recent thread about the best FFb settings for LFS in which i also posted.

but here are the settings you should have for LFS specifically.

as said before, LFS generates its own forces, so you can turn off things like the centering spring and damping force in windows. the only force setting i use on my wheel other than those in LFS (@ 50%), is to have the standard FFB level at about 25-50% in windows. this basically just makes sure that the FFB is on.

tbh, i dont think i can comment on the understeer side of LFS as i haven't tested any of the cars enough to check. one thing i can say is that i always know when i am understeering, but off the top of my head i dont know why :D maybe it is the ffb which i pick up subconciously, or maybe i just react to whats on screen...i just cant remember :P
but imo, at least the oversteer feeling is correct but this is often dependant on the wheel. i think my Momo spoils it slightly as it has some constant resistance which negates the feeling of the wheel going light.

[SparkyDave]

maybe post a ss of your FF settings Dan (in LFS and win CP) , this may not be helping I do feel some grip loss at front wheels but it dosent go completely loose .

SD.

[danowat]

Pilot sent me some settings Monday night, can't remember them off the top of my head, but I am pretty sure most, if not all the CP settings are at 0%, I have it set at 270DEG and I think the force in LFS is 60%, any more than that and I feel the wheel loads up a bit too much, plus it extenuates the lack of lightness at understeer.
I also get an odd "patch" of lightness in the wheel around the centre of the steering axis, it is very noticable when practicing on SO Long for the ERCC in the tight left-right turns.
I hope it is a settings issue and I'll post some screenies tonight.

Cheers

Dan,

[Scottie]

OK, so how do I "tune" it to give me realistic understeer FFB?.

Dan,

i think it'll be fixed with the new physics as there does seem to be a prob with tires at a certain force/slip angle... this may be effecting the understeer force felt

[Kegetys]

I do think the LFS forces could use some work. Sure, they are much better than what any ISI engine delivers (imo.), but they still are far away from providing the kind of feedback Richard Burns Rally does. Though a WRC car is of course different than what we have in LFS, but still the feedback effects feel so much more real in RBR; When I'm accelerating or braking I can feel the slight change in the wheel's stiffness to know how much grip the front wheels have, when I lock the front wheels when braking I can instantly feel a slight change in the wheel etc...

For LFS everyone always just says the forces "come through the steering column", but no one seems to know exactly what forces from the "steering column" are there. For example, I would assume the amount of weight on the front wheels would affect the stiffness of the steering wheel, so when I'm braking heavily the wheel should feel different than when I'm accelerating and most of the weight is on the rear wheels. But I haven't felt such in LFS, maybe the effect is there, but it certainly doesn't feel as good as it does in RBR.

[Vain]

The effect is definitely there Kegetys.
Either that or I'm too dumb to evaluate the forces that are put on my hands.

Vain

[Gentlefoot]

I think it just takes a bit of time to tune into the FF. Give it a couple of weeks Dan.

[danowat]

I think it just takes a bit of time to tune into the FF. Give it a couple of weeks Dan.

I hope so, I guess I am a touch frustrated because the wheel has made me even slower (yes, its possible), even though I was warned of this, it is certainly frustrating, that and the fact that the correct understeer feeling is present in GTL, which is ISI based and always gets a slagging.

Anyway, I shall hopefully be on the ERCC server tonight trying to "dial it in" so any help would be greatly recieved :thumb:

Dan,

[AndroidXP]

Because the FF is directly linked to the physics, you should wait till we have the physics patch Scawen is currently working on before judging LFS. He said that the tyre grip is not spot on on the phase of losing grip, so it also affects understeer. Maybe the updated physics will give you more of a understeer feel.

The question that still remains though, does the wheel really get light on understeer on tarmac? Or is it just a myth that seems logical to everybody and is thus accepted without further investigation?

[danowat]

Yes it does, well at least it has on the numerous different car types I have driven, both on the road and on the curcuit.

I am not "judging" LFS, merely stating that I beileve this effect is lacking in its current form.

I love playing LFS as much as the next man, but if it could improved by improving this then I am all for it.

Dan,

[tristancliffe]

As you increase slip angle, the torque required to turn the steering wheel (or keep it turned against the self centering torque) increases until it peaks, at which point you are using the tyres to their maximum - any further increase in steering angle would increase slip angle beyond optimum, reducing cornering force, and also reducing the torque on the wheel. So yes, it DOES get lighter (but not REALLY light), when you induce understeer.

Then, if you're a really bad driver, and you keep turning the wheel hopelessly believing that more lock will somehow cure the understeer, the wheels no longer rorate 'freely', but have to hop across the road surface. Anyone who thinks this is normal needs driving lessons.

LFS simulates all of this afaik (apart from the hopping, but race drivers don't need that simulated because, of course, we never do that. Do we?). It's subtle, and can only be felt if you have Windows Game Controllers set properly (see other threads), but I feel the peak of torque required and the decrease afterwards. Maybe someone should measure it with a Newtonmeter or something :S

[danowat]

So yes, it DOES get lighter (but not REALLY light), when you induce understeer.

Your physics degree might tell you that, but in reality it does get REALLY light, but it will all depend on many, many different factors.
You can chuck slip angles, blah blah fancy whatevers at this, but IT AINT RIGHT, its that simple.

Dan,

[tristancliffe]

I drive an MX-5. Now okay, it's a girly hairdressers car, but it frequently wins (or used to in Mk1 and Mk2 varients) best handling car of the year awards, beating porsches, caterhams, loti, etc. In that, when I drive it hard (and I mean HARD) occasionally I get understeer. When I do, the lightening effect isn't huge and obvious, it's small and subtle, and quite easy to misinterpret, especially on a wet road with reduced friction.

On a FWD car the effect is identical, but being the driven wheels you also get some torque steer into the feeling that LFS doesn't simulate, at least much, as far as I know.

[Gentlefoot]

I agree with Tris and Dan if that's possible. I too do a lot of track driving and I do feel the resistance build to the point where you are past the ideal slip angle. It is subtle though but can be greatly influenced by the amount of caster designed into the suspension geometry of any particular car - more caster = greater 'centering', greater centuring = more resistance to the point of ideal slip angle so the effect becomes more obvious with greater caster. I haven't noticed this built into the game on the few cars where caster is adjustable though.

I can only just detect the lightening of the wheel past the ideal slip angle in LFS. Maybe its not even there and my brain tricks me into thinking I can feel it because that's what I'm used to.

Also, I've noticed this effect is much more apparent on my road car which is rear wheel drive. In addition, its even more noticeable in the wet but I've not done any wet races in LFS yet to compare. My raod car has a lot more caster than my track car. I'll soon be putting that right tho!

Hope you get me.

[Phill]

every so often i do find i get the feeling of understeer throught me wheel.. but it aint that often tho..

so do i! I get it everytime that crappy Raceabout oversteers :D

[der butz]

Test for me

Car: Mini special 1000
specs: 45hp, fwd, 630kg
actions: accelerate with spinning front wheels while steering.
brake with blocked wheels while steering
corner until understeering

lfs car: uf1
wheel: thrustmaster rally gt pro
actions: same as irl

I will try how these very similar cars behave and how my steering reacts.

The advantage is that the mini doesn't have any servo sissi assistances, neither in steering nor braking aids. It also lacks this thingy... how do you call it... steering dampener (??), so I really feel every pebble on the road.

[Shotglass]

Your physics degree might tell you that, but in reality it does get REALLY light, but it will all depend on many, many different factors.

no it doesnt ... it only gets really light when you induce understeer by stepping on the accelerator in an fwd

[danowat]

@shotglass, I'll have to disagree with you on that one then.

Thats right Tris, that something else that could do with being implemented on FWD cars, torque steer.

Dan,

[Gentlefoot]

Friction of road service, caster, Steering Angle of Inclination, quality of tyres, tyre pressures, roll bar stiffness, damping level, spring rates, PAS

These all will have an effect on the level of resistance the driver will feel through the steering.

There's many different factors for you shotglass

[Theafro]

IMHO the 'light' feeling you say is missing, is definately there in LFS, ok it's subtle but it's something that has kept me on the track at most corners i arrive at.

it may be that because FFB as we know it isn't smooth enough to truly replicate what you feel when strapped into a real car, i mean at the limit it's a (relatively) subtle effect for real anyway, so it can get lost in the very clumsy nature of current FFB systems.

I've got a feeling that most of the 'canned' efects used by other games is simply a way to make effects stand out enough to be obvious. LFS is at least very 'pure' in the way it generates its feedback, although they might not be as easy to pick up on as other titles.

:shrug:

[Cue-Ball]

I agree with a few of the other guys here who've said that they can feel the lightness when the front tires lose traction. In fact, the other night I was driving the LX4 on Aston and felt this quite a few times because I was coming into the corners too hot. The effect is definitely there. And I'm another one of the guys who thinks the ISI sims FF sucks. The effects DO feel canned and I can't feel what the car is doing at all in those games. LFS is the only game I've tried that feels right to me (not counting the low lateral grip).

Danowat - You mentioned a small "dead area" in the center of steering in LFS. If you have very little toe out and/or your caster settings are just right, this is exactly what you should feel. I get this same feeling from some setups (seems like it's usually the RAC). Take the same car and enable Bob's Road Going setup and the feeling is gone. This, to me, really illustrates how realistic and detailed LFS's force feedback is, especially given the hardware limitations we have.

[Rob76]

IRL the only time my Malibu (yes I know it's shit) steering goes *REALLY* light when understeering is in the wet. In the dry it is not as noticeable.

In LFS, my DFP feedback is not as subtle as it was with my Wingman Formula Force, but I can still tell that it's understeering but the lightness isn't like a switch. It actually gets lighter under hard acceleration at the start than understeer. But overall the FFB in LFS is by far the best of the racing sims I've tried (most of them). Although I have RBR, I haven't played it much and I find it hard to compare rally with road racing as the style and feedback are totally different.

As for the feedback in GTL - for me it is far more vague than LFS, and even though understeer is very light, the FFB communicates very little else to me (except the normal canned vibration effects). You can feel when you're understeering but it's not very good at warning you're about to understeer. It was the same in GTR - underteer or oversteer was always something I had to anticipate rather than feel the limits, where as in LFS I have much more feedback through FFB to what the car is doing even before understeer/oversteer occur.

[Bob Smith]

It's dead easy to feel power understeer in more powerful FWD cars, the steering goes quite light then.

I've tried GTR at a friends house, the low FFB when turning too far seem so exaggerated, since the wheel goes almost limp. Felt horrible. I've no problems with RBR FFB, I doesn't feel quite so attached but then rallying is going to be different anyway. And the replays make up for any bad words that could be levelled against the game.

[skiingman]

in a real car once you are understeering and the front tyres have little or no grip the steering is very light, something that LFS just doesnt convey.


Bullshit.

Sorry, thats not how it works in real life.

I don't know how many times other people have to post that in most cars in most situations, the wheel doesn't magically go light when the front wheels go past the knee in the traction curve.

The steering may feel "lighter" but its more like the feel doesn't get any heavier and these type of very subtle hints do show up in LFS.

[skiingman]

I agree with Tris and Dan if that's possible. I too do a lot of track driving and I do feel the resistance build to the point where you are past the ideal slip angle. It is subtle though but can be greatly influenced by the amount of caster designed into the suspension geometry of any particular car - more caster = greater 'centering', greater centuring = more resistance to the point of ideal slip angle so the effect becomes more obvious with greater caster.

Hope you get me.

Reminds me that the vehicle I am most certain had the biggest "lightening" effect past ideal slip angle was a go-kart that probably had 10 degrees of caster, or something insane like that. Very noticeable jacking effect as well, which LFS simulates and few other "sims" seem to.

[mrodgers]

The steering may feel "lighter" but its more like the feel doesn't get any heavier and these type of very subtle hints do show up in LFS.
You know? I think that is a very good description of what I and others are trying to say here (I bolded). Well put :thumb: .

[Woz]

I drive an MX-5. Now okay, it's a girly hairdressers car, but it frequently wins (or used to in Mk1 and Mk2 varients) best handling car of the year awards, beating porsches, caterhams, loti, etc. In that, when I drive it hard (and I mean HARD) occasionally I get understeer. When I do, the lightening effect isn't huge and obvious, it's small and subtle, and quite easy to misinterpret, especially on a wet road with reduced friction.

On a FWD car the effect is identical, but being the driven wheels you also get some torque steer into the feeling that LFS doesn't simulate, at least much, as far as I know.

LFS does torque steer that you can feel in the FFB. Just take the UFR for a drive as its simple to spin the wheels in and you will notice right away.

[Gabkicks]

i can deffinatly fel the wheel lightten when understeering. of course i'm using a DFP 100% ffb in profiler and 95% ffb ingame.:tilt:

its extremely obvious. everyone else has already taken the words out of my mouth.:shrug:

[steve]

I dont know how you guys can feel the wheel go light on understeer when its not even coded into the FF...

[Gabkicks]

i'm sure it is. either that or alot of people including me are crazy.

[axus]

I think torque steer in LFS is quite noticable with something like the XF GTR on a tight track. Put your foot down hard out of a corner or over some bumps and it goes all over the place.

[Bob Smith]

I dont know how you guys can feel the wheel go light on understeer when its not even coded into the FF...
Just think what you said:
1. Have you looked at Scawen's code?
2. As far as we are led to believe, there are no effects, so NOTHING is coded into the FFB. It's pure physics baby.

[danowat]

Ok,

1) LFS has the best FF ever, it is so good that it could never be improved, its just like driving a real car.

2) In real life the steering wheel never goes light in understeer conditions

3) Everyother sim (possibly bar RBR) has rubbish FF.

Keep it up blinkered masses, the brain washing is working really well........

[Gabkicks]

now u are putting words in people's mouths. no need to get angry. lets try and look at this logically and respectfully.

nobody said that the force feedback was perfect. we know for damn sure that rfactor and gtl arent.:thumb:

[danowat]

Not angry at all my friend, just can't be bothered with it, with being told that a real world condition that I can go outide and feel right now, is wrong, it doesnt happen.
Also, the fact that no one can ever level any critisim at LFS, I am a BIG LFS fan, but that doesnt mean that

a) I can't enjoy other sims

or

b) I can't state when something (I believe) is wrong.

Fanboys are a very odd breed.....

[Woz]

[quote=danowat]Ok,

1) LFS has the best FF ever, it is so good that it could never be improved, its just like driving a real car.

2) In real life the steering wheel never goes light in understeer conditions

3) Everyother sim (possibly bar RBR) has rubbish FF.


Do you truly believe that IRL when you get understeer that it feels like someone has put the car up on bricks and taken off the front wheels because this is what happens in ISI based sims. It just not do this.

If understeer is caused by too much drive to the front wheels it will get loose, this happens in LFS now. If its caused while slowing down it does not do this. its more the pressure build up stops. There is too much weight to the front for it to go loose.

[danowat]

No, I don't believe that, I believe what I feel when the situation happens IRL, it doesnt feel like "someones put it on bricks", but it feels decidedly light, and as my hardware is setup ATM, GTL feels more lifelike than LFS in that respect.
Also, understeer is not just to do with drive, you can understeer IRL without even touching the throttle.

Dan,

[AndroidXP]

Also, understeer is not just to do with drive, you can understeer IRL without even touching the throttle.
That's nothing different to what he said? :shrug:

The point was,
understeer without/with little throttle = heavy wheel
understeer with heavy throttle = somewhat light wheel

Exactly like it is in LFS now.

But again, we should really see what the new physics change in the FF behaviour, maybe we will get a bit lighter wheel on understeer. Maybe the wheel force will stay completely the same, but the force just BEFORE losing grip will be higher (remember: physics currently aren't that perfect in this tyre state), so it will seem like a lighter wheel.

What we will not get is this bullshit from the ISI sims. I've yet to see someone let go of the wheel on understeer, because magically all forces are gone.

Btw
LFS has the best FF everYes.it is so good that it could never be improvedNo.its just like driving a real car.Not quite there, but far closer than any other sim (sans RBR).

[tailing]

I dont know how you guys can feel the wheel go light on understeer when its not even coded into the FF...

LFS just doesn't work that way, like others have said the ffb is influenced by the forces acting on the front wheel. If LFS is incorrect then it's more likely to do with something that affects those forces. LFS doesn't have any effects coded into the ffb, it's all generated by the physics engine.

Anyway I'd try playing with some settings Dan, I personally don't like the way most set up their ffb, the feel of the ffb is so subjective.
When it comes to understeer I do definately feel it in LFS so maybe it's just not pronounced enough. The XFR is the best car to test it out in but it's there in all of them.

[tristancliffe]

If you're adament your real cars get a really light wheel with understeer, might I suggest you drive a few experiments?

Be careful because inducing understeer could lead to an accident, so don't try it on busy streets or blind corners. <-- Disclaimer.

First, go into a corner a bit too fast, and turn the wheel a bit too much to induce understeer, but with NO throttle. You'll find the wheel will only go a bit lighter.
Second go into a corner a bit too fast, and turn the wheel a bit too much to induce understeer, but with medium throttle. You'll find the wheel will go a bit lighter and pull left and right as the different wheels get different levels of traction.
Third, go into a corner, and turn... blah blah, but with full throttle. The wheel will go very light, but will also move around quite a lot as the various wheels get different levels of grip.

It's very important that when trying to compare real life values with simulated values you test certain conditions. In a front wheel drive car, the front wheels steer and drive, and this will mean you get mixed signals through the steering wheel. You must reduce the 'torque steer' lightness before claiming it's the understeer that makes steering wheels go light.

Then, if you can, do the same thing with a decent RWD car. Without the driven wheels interferring so much with the steering feedback you'll notice that the LFS simulation isn't far off (bearing in mind FFB technology).

Then, also in the rear wheel drive car, kick the back end out. You'll see that the steering wheel appears to automatically countersteer. Don't touch the wheel, let it automatically countersteer, and it will correct the slide for you (but it'll take more room than if you did it manually, and only if you allow it correct it rather than keeping full throttle on). LFS simulates this 'automatical countersteering', and I don't recall feeling that in any other sim.

[danowat]

Not sure if your trying to be funny or not, but I have been driving cars both on and off the track before you were out of primary school.
Bottom line is, how I feel the wheel in understeer conditions IRL is not how I feel it through my FFB wheel, its that simple, I am prepared to accept that my wheel settings may not be correct, in which case, give some other settings to try.
Just don't try to condesend me.

Dan,

[tristancliffe]

I was trying to condesend no one. And just because you're older than me doesn't mean diddly squat. My grandad has been driving cars for over 70 years, but that doesn't make him a better driver than me...

All I am suggesting is that you either aren't getting the forces properly throught your wheel OR yuou don't know what forces you should really expect. It's sometimes difficult to separate what you think you feel (with sound, vibration, g-forces, bumps, and fear) with what your hands actually feel.

But not only do you not like LFS's FFB much, you also prefer rFactors. This leads me to think that perhaps it's your perception of what it should be like rather than what it IS like, because rFactors canned effects are very poor.

This sin't meant to be personal, I'm just explaining why I posted what I did.

So to cure it. Go into windows control panel. Click 'Enable force feedback'. Set Overall Effect Strength to 50%, and the two below that to zero. The uncheck Enable Centering Spring in Force Feedback Games, and set it's slider to zero too. Some people say you have to have that list box checked, but I prefer it without. In LFS I set the FFB level to about 40% depending onthe car and my mood. To much will swamp the detail with force, too little will be too floppy and weak.

I don't need to tell you that you'll need to get used to the new settings, so you should aim to use these settings for at least an hour, if not more, with a good setup - most WR sets seem to be quite good, but it there is little caster (and other things) it may ruin the feel.

In exchange, perhaps you could post your settings that you use in rFactor and Windows for your wheel so I can see how 'good' rFactor's FFB is with known good settings. I'm prepared to spend a couple of hours trying out your settings.

[danowat]

It's got nothing to do with being a better driver, I never said I was a better driver.

Also, I never said once I prefer the FFB in rFactor, I don't like rFactor, I have stated that numerous times on here, maybe you need to take more attention of what I have said rather than putting words in my mouth.

All I said was that I believed that the representation of understeer feedback, that and nothing else, "FELT" better and more realistic in GTL than in LFS, again, I have said all along that I am prepared to accept my settings are not correct.

I meant to post my settings last night, but had an hour on the track trying to get it sorted, I have used a WR setup from the setupfield, and also another from Sparkydave, the only thing that did feel better was the "snatch" understeer which is now more pronounced.

Also, I should state that I have ONLY been driving the FXO (non-GTR), I havent tried anyother cars.

I will post my settings tonight.

Dan,

[tristancliffe]

rFactor, GTL, all the same to me. Except I don't own GTL. And I won't buy it because of a) GTR (which I wasted moeny on) and b) Starforce. Short sighted? Maybe, but I've played GTL at a friends house on a DFP and it felt just as bad as rFactor did to me...

But sorry for forgetting you were referring to GTL :shy:

[Theafro]

i'm beginning to wonder if you're all getting a little excited, from my point of view the FFB in LFS is pretty damn good, better (ie more like reality) IMHO than any other i've tried, that's not to say it's perfect but it's along the right lines.

my feeling is that LFS's FFB must be pretty close to RL, if something happens IRL and i react a certain way, the chances are i'll react the same way in LFS given the same situation, barring G related sensations of course.

it's not like i'm a blinkered 'fanboy' anyway, i HAVE played 99.9% of sims and LFS is the closest thing to reality as far as the sensations you're talking about are concerned. that's why it's my sim of choice.

[Barroso]

well i have my own opinion, in my real life car, a corsa diesel with no power steering, the wheel does get lighter but not that much, on a friends punto with power steering i could barely tell the diference when i was understeering. just my 2c

[jtr99]

Dan, not trying to bait you or anything here, your frustration with the FFB issue and the responses you're getting seems very genuine. But can I just ask which real-life car is it that you've had the most relevant experience in? I wonder whether there's something going on with the steering geometry of your favourite real-world car that leads to a lighter wheel feel under understeer conditions. You mentioned in a previous post that you had experienced this phenomenon in a range of car types, but in what sort of car would you say it was most pronounced? FWD, RWD? Power steering? Extreme caster settings? Could any of these variables be at play in producing this difference in experience between yourself and some of the respondents?

[danowat]

Many, many different cars, from Mini Coopers, "Mighty Minis" spec, to Impreza's and a whole lot inbetween in the last 15+ years, on the whole it has been mainly FWD, and some AWD (most of which understeer more than FWD anyway).
At the moment I am basing this on purey the FXO, and my experiance with reletivly powerfull FWD cars.
Again, I have put a good hour or so in tonight of tweaking, and maybe its as good as I am going to get it, I still don't believe its there yet, its not bad, but I do think it could be better, I am going to post my wheel settings in the hope that some changes to them.

Dan,

[Gabkicks]

are you using dfp?

[Cue-Ball]

270* of rotation in Windows settings, and 360* of rotation in LFS. Certainly not what I would expect to see. What wheel do you use?

[Woz]

Many, many different cars, from Mini Coopers, "Mighty Minis" spec, to Impreza's and a whole lot inbetween in the last 15+ years, on the whole it has been mainly FWD, and some AWD (most of which understeer more than FWD anyway).
At the moment I am basing this on purey the FXO, and my experiance with reletivly powerfull FWD cars.
Again, I have put a good hour or so in tonight of tweaking, and maybe its as good as I am going to get it, I still don't believe its there yet, its not bad, but I do think it could be better, I am going to post my wheel settings in the hope that some changes to them.

Dan,
One thing I noticed is that your wheel lock in CP and LFS is different. They should be exactly the same to get best feel. Also looking at your windows control panel implies you have a DFP as you can adjust the lock. If this is the case you do the following.

1) Set your rotation to 720 in LFS and CP
2) Set wheel comp to 1

This will then let LFS know you have 720deg (Max used in LFS cars) of lock and the wheel comp will then reduce the lock used to relate to match the type of car being driven. You will only get the hard lock endstops at 720deg but LFS will just ignore the lock that is beyond the range of the current car. Saves having to muck around with lock ranges when you change cars.

Running like this normally means you need to increase the steering lock in your car setups to be max allowed (about 30deg) in the cars with full lock range but once done means the more road based cars feel very natural.

As a side note if you have your wheel lock set below the range of the car you are driving you will NOT get a flat response on the steering there will be a notch in the middle of the steering range where it moves at a slower rate to that near the edge of the lock range. This effects how you feel FF as well.

Final note, if you have not found them there two groups of setups by Bob on the forum. The first are road going setups for many cars and the other group are called easy race. Both groups have more "natural" car setups compared to the defaults in LFS.

[sinbad]

Also give it a try with much less wheel turn compensation. (I use 0.10, though I don't know what everyone else uses).

[mrodgers]

First thing, Danowat, uncheck "combined pedals" in the windows options and select "separate" for throttle/brake axes in LFS. This way, you can use them at the same time to balance the car, or whatever. Now you have it so they work as a single axis, y for example, and can only do one at a time.

Second, someone else chime in on how to set up the DFP for 900 degrees. I don't have a DFP. You can either set the windows options up to match the car you are using, ie, racecars have smaller rotation than roadcars. Then set wheel turn to the same in LFS. Or, this is where others chime in as I'm not sure, you can set both at 900 degrees and use "wheel turn compensation" to have it automatically set to the rotation the car uses.

Next, I like the overall strength in windows and force strength in LFS you are using. I use similar, 60 in windows actually and adjust LFS 35-50 depending on car. I use 50 for FWD and the lower for RWD.

Windows spring effects strength. I go off the wall compared to the majority here and have mine set at 138% (is this the thread I explained a while ago this?:shrug: ). Anyways, in RWD, I always had the feeling of the FF being lagged behind when the back end would break loose. I couldn't catch and countersteer at all. Someone back at RSC claimed the same feeling and found setting the spring effects strength high (above 100%) fixes this. I found that to be true and have been using it that way for months now. The majority may disagree, but some back then agreed and it fixed it for them and I've had some tell me it helped when I suggested it to them as well. The majority will say it should be set at 0%. Try it both ways and see for yourself.

Damper effects strength should be set at 0% period.

Centering spring (this simulates having a spring in the wheel to return it to center automatically like a non-force feedback wheel) should be UNCHECKED and set at 0%.

In LFS, I see you have "throttle and brake centre reduction" set at 25% (0.25). This should be set at 0.00.

One final thing. You don't show it in the pic, but click on "Axes/FF" where you assign the throttle, brake, and steering. At the bottom you should see "remove deadzones". Make sure you select "yes" for that. If not, you will have a deadzone and it will make the steering real goofy when you are trying to keep it going straight.

Hope that helps out. I'm sure as I type this and stop often to yell at the kids fighting, someone else probably beat me to it.

[Woz]

Also give it a try with much less wheel turn compensation. (I use 0.10, though I don't know what everyone else uses).

Wheel comp only have the negative non linear impact when the controller sterring lock is less than the natural wheel lock of the car you are in. If its the same there is no effect and if the wheel lock is greater than the car you keep linear steering but LFS just ignores the extra lock beyond the natural range.

[danowat]

Ok, let me paraphrase whats been said,

Firstly, yeah, I noticed the difference in "lock", I havent actually been driving that way, it was the result of taking screenshots at 2 different times while trying different settings.

Tonight I am going to try,

1) Set both CP and LFS to 720DEG
2) Uncheck combined axis
3) Keep turn comp at 1
4) Make sure remove deadzone is checked
5) Post shot of axes page.

Any comments on the above?, or anything else I should try?

P.S. Yes, its a DFP

Dan,

[Gentlefoot]

When you split up the brake and accelerator axis you'll notice a mssive improvement in the control you've got in corner entry. I changed mine recently too.

[deggis]

Any comments on the above?, or anything else I should try?

P.S. Yes, its a DFP

Dan,
And remember to set Damper and Spring effects to 0%.

I think we really need a (un-)official steering wheel setup FAQ. So many players don't get the most out of LFS's FF because they're wheels are set up incorrectly. :( Someone volunteer to make one? Maybe it would be just a sticky post in the beginner section.

[mrodgers]

And remember to set Damper and Spring effects to 0%.

I think we really need a (un-)official steering wheel setup FAQ. So many players don't get the most out of LFS's FF because they're wheels are set up incorrectly. :( Someone volunteer to make one? Maybe it would be just a sticky post in the beginner section.
Agreed that a sticky wheel FAQ in the beginner's section would be good. But as I say up in my post earlier, I don't agree with the Spring effects at 0%. So, it shouldn't be a "this is how you should have it!" but allow some proven "off the wall settings" to be said as well. I just suggested in another thread my Spring Strength settings to someone who is having a problem with the way the forces are acting. Perhaps it's a difference in PC's that make the few of us doing that do it, I don't know. Most of us are ok with the 0%, but a few do have problems with "occillation" and wierd feeling FF.

[Barroso]

the wheel compensation at 1 is too much for the normal cars i believe, or atleast im used to lower values, i use 0.1 for all road cars and 0.5 or more in the formula cars.
how can you drive with the combined axis?? must be pretty weird hehe, hope you sort out those issues.

[joeynuggetz]

Ok,

1) LFS has the best FF ever, it is so good that it could never be improved, its just like driving a real car.

2) In real life the steering wheel never goes light in understeer conditions

3) Everyother sim (possibly bar RBR) has rubbish FF.

Keep it up blinkered masses, the brain washing is working really well........

If anyone is doing the brainwashing it's ISI with their canned effects. All I know is that LFS tells me everything I need to know about the car and what it's doing thru my DFP. LFS feels like driving a car that actually has functional suspension - the other "sims" feel like hovercrafts once you turn off the canned effects. It's a shame that people think that ISI sims got it right. This is a sim right here fellas. Sure, some problems here but at least I can feel the suspension and that's pretty much all I need.

[Cue-Ball]

the wheel compensation at 1 is too much for the normal cars i believe, or atleast im used to lower values, i use 0.1 for all road cars and 0.5 or more in the formula cars.
how can you drive with the combined axis?? must be pretty weird hehe, hope you sort out those issues.Wheel compensation only matters when using a wheel with a lower lock-to-lock distance than the car in LFS. For instance, using a Logitech Wingman with a 270* lock you would need compensation when driving any of the cars with >270* lock (most of the road cars). For people who use a DFP wheel compensation does not matter. Setting it at 0 or setting it at 1 both give the same effect because there is no compensation needed. 1 degree of wheel movement equals 1 degree of movement in-game, so long as the DFP is setup to use 720*.

[Barroso]

thx for explaining, i have a msff and i certainly feel the difference, and i agree it must be different for other wheels, but who races with 720º??

[Vain]

Real drivers?

Vain

[Gabkicks]

i think 540 fo the gtr cars, and 450 for formulas is much more realistic than 270.

[Woz]

Wheel compensation only matters when using a wheel with a lower lock-to-lock distance than the car in LFS. For instance, using a Logitech Wingman with a 270* lock you would need compensation when driving any of the cars with >270* lock (most of the road cars). For people who use a DFP wheel compensation does not matter. Setting it at 0 or setting it at 1 both give the same effect because there is no compensation needed. 1 degree of wheel movement equals 1 degree of movement in-game, so long as the DFP is setup to use 720*.

That is not quite true.

With wheel comp 0 and 720deg lock you will ALWAYS have 720 lock in every car

With wheel comp 1 and 720deg lock the steering lock will be updated to match that of the car you are in so 540 for GTR cars, 260ish for MRT etc. The lock outside of the cars range is ignored by LFS in this situation so you end up with the correct linear lock for the car.


You are right that you end up with non-linear when your wheel lock is less that the car you are in.

[danowat]

Ok, well, after a good few hours tonight of racing and tweaking and racing and tweaking, different cars, different tracks etc, I think I have found a "sweet" spot, its a lot better, still room for improvement in the FFB, but I am reasonably satisfied.

Dan,

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Probably a bit irrelevant now that this seems to be calming down... One thing that I'll NEVER forget was when S1 was released, and having played the demo for so long I was used to the XRT. The first time I tried the LX6, it gave the sensation of just being a rocket because the steering would go so light on WOT from a slow start, since the car was so much lighter and the power weight ratio was so huge compared to the XRT. I remember just cruising around FB, just gunning that car where I could because it translated such a sense of acceleration through the wheel, which I hadn't noticed in anything else before. Kind of related to the topic in a way.... :)

[mrodgers]

Glad to here you're enjoying it more now, Danowat. Have fun with it.

(Next week, someone new will join and complain about the force feedback and Danowat will jump right in to argue that LFS has the best, LOL :thumb: :thumb: )

[theblackrabbi]

Ok,

1) LFS has the best FF ever, it is so good that it could never be improved, its just like driving a real car.

2) In real life the steering wheel never goes light in understeer conditions

3) Everyother sim (possibly bar RBR) has rubbish FF.

Keep it up blinkered masses, the brain washing is working really well........

I just find LFS FF to be the easiest to communicated with, if that makes sense. You feel the wheel go this way, you turn the other way, then you correct. Maybe i have been playing this game too much, but it seems to have the most direct feel of any other game I have played. I used to think it felt like a real car, and still do kinda, but now I just think it's the easiest FF to use in a game. Not saying it's a baby game, but the feeling I get while driving just tells me exactly what to do, and doesn't leave me with a million other things to worry about.

It's so simple, but at the same time so much fun, and challenging that it makes it my choice over RF or GTR.. The only thing I love about those games is that I can feel the car on the pavement more so then I can with LFS. But the FF is much harder to get a feel on, and takes much more patience to get it just right.