Test Patch Z4 - online compatible (no VW)

[Scawen]

WARNING : THIS IS A TEST

NOTE : THE VW SCIROCCO IS NOT INCLUDED


Hello Racers, here is a new Test Patch : Z4.

It is fully online compatible with version Z.
You can view hotlap replays made in version Z.

ABS brakes have been added to 6 cars (as a setup option) so for now you cannot upload hotlaps made in Z4.

Although the list of changes is short, there are a lot of internal changes and optimisations.
So you should probably keep a backup of your LFS.exe from version Z.



Changes in TEST PATCH Z4 :

Attempted fix for polygon errors seen on some graphics cards
FIX : It was impossible to join an online race with a demo car


Changes in TEST PATCH Z3 :

Updated wheels on Formula BMW
Implemented ABS brakes in XFG / XRG / RB4 / FXO / XRT / FZ5
Improved wheel drawing system including rotating brake discs
Improved shadows - sharper and ambient shadow effect now included
InSim : New packets to start / search replays and take screenshots
FIX : Player name was wrong in entry screen on entry or after replay
FIX : Added checks to prevent guests joining with no user name or ID
FIX : OOS starting race after joining autocross host in entry screen


DOWNLOADS :

PATCH Z to Z4 (Version Z must already be installed) :
www.liveforspeed.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_PATCH_Z_TO_Z4.exe (1.6 MB)

[J@tko]

Thanks for the quick fix scawen.

If you're in the Mini-FBM you can safely download this patch :thumbsup:

[Luke.S]

woot ty scawen

[Heiko1]

thanks Scawen :)

Congrats the FBM wheels loking nice :) GREAT WORK!

[MikoZ]

Good stuff, thanks Scawen and others.

[kaynd]

The artifacts – polygon problem is solved for me now. (FX5200 @ 16bits) there was no problem at 32bit in patch Z3

[Amynue]

That was fast, thanks!

[EliteAti]

Very fast, gotta get all bugs out of your way :D

[fraghetti]

Great... i can now put max brake force on the cars and not care for anything.... srsly abs sux

but the fbm wheels are fricken sexey!

[nesrulz]

FIX : It was impossible to join an online race with a demo car

Thx. :thumb:

[Töki (HUN)]

Great... i can now put max brake force on the cars and not care for anything.... srsly abs sux


You can switch them off! You're not forced to use it...

[Heiko1]

found a bug....

u can turn Brake Help (ON) but wont change anything.

Hope can be fixed fast :)

[nesrulz]

Great... i can now put max brake force on the cars and not care for anything...

Yeah, sure... NO! :)
Go testing, and u will see...

[kaynd]

That’s not the case. The tires still lockup rapidly and you will mess your lines if you do not have enough control over that.

ABS works as it sould do :thumb:
nice work :)

[rusty8]

:thumb:good work scawen.....ABS works perfect :D

[AndroidXP]

found a bug....

u can turn Brake Help (ON) but wont change anything.

Hope can be fixed fast :)
Brake help still works...

[Scawen]

found a bug....

u can turn Brake Help (ON) but wont change anything.

Hope can be fixed fast :)I'm not sure what you mean. It seems to work - try it on a car without ABS.

Brake help is really for keyboard and mouse users who don't have an axis brake.

[Falcon140]

Thanks so much Scawen. :thumb:

[danthebangerboy]

That was officially the FASTEST fix in history. Thanks a lot!:thumb:

[Heiko1]

Ah okay :)

Damnit how the h** u know that i got a Wheel? [JustFun] :D
Scawen is a god :trampolin

LONG LIVE SCAWEN ,,HIP HIP HORAY!"

[JVL]

nice work! thanks scawen!:D

[Napalm Candy]

It works perfectly fine, what are you talking about?

E: In case you don't know, if you put the brake bias back the rear brakes will have more strength and the front brakes will have less.

Yes, i know what is brake bias. What I want to say is, if rear wheels blocks with brake, but no front wheels, then ABS does not work. I don't know if it is the normal function of ABS... so I say "possible fail on ABS"

[Andrei221]

maybe you can put some red on the brakes when they are hot too :D like in forza motorsport

[msk]

MRT5 has got lights indicator(it's working, when you press lights button, it's purple(or blue?)), but it does not have lights. Isn't it bug?

[Napalm Candy]

Scawen what exact changes has FBM wheels?

I had testing with defaul set in City Long and i noticed that with red tyres you can run without "drift" I feel easy to drive. I noticed too that if you slid to much tires don't burn up having a stable temperature. Any change in tires?

[Heiko1]

does ABS works in reallife if you drive Backwards? if yes it does in LFS not :thumb:

[kaynd]

Yes, i know what is brake bias. What I want to say is, if rear wheels blocks with brake, but no front wheels, then ABS does not work. I don't know if it is the normal function of ABS... so I say "possible fail on ABS"

It does work. It's the first thing I did try. Use the force view to see... you just do not hear it as much as when locking the front tires.

(I haven't tested backwards braking though :scratchch )

[J@tko]

does ABS works in reallife if you drive Backwards? if yes it does in LFS not :thumb:
Yah I was gonna say that. I think it must do :shrug:

[Danas]

Everything works fine now, thanks for the update. It would be nice to get this sort of update on the new CMX viewer :scratchch :thumb:

[Scawen]

Everything works fine now, thanks for the update. It would be nice to get this sort of update on the new CMX viewer :scratchch :thumb:http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1005753#post1005753

Waiting for your reply over there :)

[Napalm Candy]

It does work. It's the first thing I did try. Use the force view to see... you just do not hear it as much as when locking the front tires.

(I haven't tested backwards braking though :scratchch )

Ouch... was a mistake. I have tested with an old Set, and of course not have ABS activated.... sorry :x Works fine!

[Shotglass]

how many channels does the abs have? looks like a 2 channel system to me which doesnt seem like an accurate choice for how old an xrt must be
also its too fast by rather a lot for that time

[John5200]

was in a cruise server for 3 min and got this massage: "MP Replay : Out of stash space" and got kicked out

bcause of the new patch??!!:scratchch (never had that before)

[mcintyrej]

was in a cruise server for 3 min and got this massage: "MP Replay : Out of stash space" and got kicked out

bcause of the new patch??!!:scratchch (never had that before)

Thats been around for ages, had that loads of times on cruise servers in the past.

[Danny LFS]

Scawen my buddy!

Yes the patch has some bugs, but it works fine on my computer.

Thanks! can't wait until next week!:woohoo:

[shiny_red_cobra]

Does anybody know if (IRL) ABS is supposed to work when you're in reverse?

[Shadowww]

I bet ABS will be very popular on cruise servers (place where all the people can't drive are)

[Heiko1]

ok tested on moms car Suzuki Vitara V6 2.0 it works ABS backwards :) Buildyear: 1995 :P

@ Shadoww ur just jealous that it dont exist a Cruise server on demo anymore. its nothing against u but....

[Shadowww]

ok tested on moms car Suzuki Vitara V6 2.0 it works ABS backwards :) Buildyear: 1995 :P

@ Shadoww ur just jealous that it dont exist a Cruise server on demo anymore. its nothing against u but....
There IS a demo cruise, just it is private. It is always full, and there is no cheaters, trust me.

[XmaX]

dont if thats a bug but, see in my atteched file.

6 LED's in FZR

[der butz]

patch tested with all the cars, sound turned of due to sleeping missus. Looked at brake discs, abs functionality and texture/model bugs. everything fine here. I really like the coice of cars with and without ABS, like in real life! ABS also kicks in nicely - however I didn't completely get the orangey stuff in F9-view. Is an orange-looking tyre the indicator for blocked? If yes, then the idea is great! One can't always feel a blocking inside tyre in a game...

Another job well done. Tanks and merry christmas scavier!

greetz

der butz

[Heiko1]

.

Another job well done. Tanks and merry christmas scavier!



his name is Scawen not Scavier

[J@tko]

his name is Scawen not Scavier
But the devs as a whole are known as Scavier (mix of their names) :thumbsup:

[AndroidXP]

however I didn't completely get the orangey stuff in F9-view. Is an orange-looking tyre the indicator for blocked?
Actually it shows the wheel(s) that ABS is currently active on, not if a wheel is locked :)
his name is Scawen not Scavier
Scawen Victor Eric

[XmaX]

You cant change the texture of the new brakedisc so you dont see if that rotate, pls change it. The rest is fine

[Ruben_Drifter]

There IS a demo cruise, just it is private. It is always full, and there is no cheaters, trust me.
There's a cruise without password in demo ;)

Scawen, I like this very much!! The ABS and the brakes!!

[Anzeee]

I bet ABS will be very popular on cruise servers (place where all the people can't drive are)

You fail. First buy license, than comment. If people on demo cruise servers cant drive, that dont mean that they cant on licensed too. I saw many good drivers on cruise servers, so your theory failed.

And good job for patch :thumb: !

[rc10racer]

You cant change the texture of the new brakedisc so you dont see if that rotate, pls change it. The rest is fine

Yes you can... the file is only a dds file so you can overwrite with another file.

http://www.lfs-database.com/index.php?categoryid=2&p13_sectionid=17

[tonyonparas]

ok tested on moms car Suzuki Vitara V6 2.0 it works ABS backwards :) Buildyear: 1995 :P

@ Shadoww ur just jealous that it dont exist a Cruise server on demo anymore. its nothing against u but....

Isn´t the V6 Vitara 3 litre engine? :D

FBM rims are great and the new shadows also. I´m not sure but it looks like there has been something changed with the reflections :shrug::scratchch
Thanks a lot so far Scawen AND Eric AND Victor :nod: (people always thank only Scawen :()

[AndroidXP]

You cant change the texture of the new brakedisc so you dont see if that rotate, pls change it. The rest is fine
???

If you want a brake disc with ventilation holes then just install a custom texture. Normal cars with a stock/road setup rarely if ever have such brakes, so why should the default texture have them?

[shiny_red_cobra]

You cant change the texture of the new brakedisc so you dont see if that rotate, pls change it. The rest is fine

Try mine. :thumb:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=51321

[XmaX]

Thanks guys, but i overwrite a file and that dont worked so im posted it again.... i try it again ;)

Max

[Velociround]

dont if thats a bug but, see in my atteched file.

6 LED's in FZR

I noticed it too, and I managed to know what 5 of them are, except the first one (from the left to the right)

respectively:
don't know, engine (on/off), red light, speed limiter, lights (G), 'pisca' thing (7-8-9-0)

What is the first one? I thought it could be ABS or traction control, but FZR doesn't have any of these :shrug:

The patch is awesome, thanks devs :)
No bugs found yet

[Heiko1]

nope my mums Vitara is 2.0Litre ^^ 138hp

[John5200]

Try mine. :thumb:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=51321
yeah thx! (the filename changed)
http://de.xfire.com/video/50fd7/
works perfect scawen =)

[shiny_red_cobra]

Yep, you have to overwrite the correct file. The one LFS uses is the one without the holes, that's the one to overwrite.

[mrfell]

love the force feed back coming thro the wheel!!!!!!!!

[alex_du_77]

I think the new lights are like that : (See attachment)

[Rascar13]

Nice with a little patch before scirocco release :nod: :thumb:

[Flame CZE]

I think the new lights are like that : (See attachment)
Probably the "oil temp" are lights.

[Pablo.CZ]

Sometimes car looks like it is flying (car is not moving)

[Velociround]

I think the new lights are like that : (See attachment)

There's no oil indicator that's the red light for shifting, but thanks you remembered me of the HANDBRAKE. That is what the first light is on about :D

so, the correct list:

Handbrake, engine on/off, revs redline, lights, pit lane limiter, hazard/indicator lights....
:thumb:

[tonyonparas]

I think the new lights are like that : (See attachment)

The oil temp is the revs redline ofcourse.

Or is it... :really: Damn I´s so confused nowWWw :D:D

EDIT: nah veloci was faster..

[alex_du_77]

Sorry, I don't remenber there is red light for shifting because I disabled this light :x

[rc10racer]

From my post over in the other thread

Blue = lights are on or off
Green = Pit line limiter
Yellow = Hazard/indicator lights

Edit: from what i know it is a new feature for the new patch because in patch Z the lights are in a different order but in 0.6A the lights are rearranged to handbrake, Not sure, rev limiter, lights, pit limiter, Hazard/indicator lights.

Edit 2: from what i can tell the xrr has an oil light warning so i am guessing it could be for that.


http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1005783#post1005783

[Stefani24]

Could you please move the gear numger in the external views back where it was?
Other then that, Great Work!

[nesrulz]

Sometimes car looks like it is flying (car is not moving)

Cars can fly. :)

[Zyrez]

Thanks scawen

I love the ABS. Im driving with mouse and i allways had the problem with no braking or full braking.. so glad my prayers have been heard :D

[Kid222]

Sometimes car looks like it is flying (car is not moving)
Happens to me too, it's probably old bug. (Aston, down on the stadium)
http://kidcz.ic.cz/lfs/lfs_00000007.jpg

[Michalxo]

Thank you coders!

Is this FZR's cocpit only mine issue? That white stripes.
Seems to me, like textures are bit away? While looking to the sides then appears and disappers...
Everything else seems to be okey.

[Danny LFS]

There IS a demo cruise, just it is private. It is always full, and there is no cheaters, trust me.

Can you send me the password through PM? Thanks!

[John5200]

Thank you coders!

Is this FZR's cocpit only mine issue? That white stripes.

I don´t have that problem :shrug:

[Shadowww]

You fail. First buy license, than comment. If people on demo cruise servers cant drive, that dont mean that they cant on licensed too. I saw many good drivers on cruise servers, so your theory failed.

And good job for patch :thumb: !
I already saw how far cop vehicle can fly after hitting a barrier using LFSRemote, so, i will never cruise in S2. Cruising in single player with AI's as police even is better!

[EliteAti]

I already saw how far cop vehicle can fly after hitting a barrier using LFSRemote, so, i will never cruise in S2. Cruising in single player with AI's as police even is better!

That barrier thing is fixed (minor bugs may be) so cars wont fly anymore.
Secong thing BUY S2!!!

[plehto]

I deeply hope there will be a server side option to force abs on/off. If you don't use it while others do, you are giving up a huge advantage. I haven't tested complete laps, but i did a braking test.
Car used was xrg, brake force at maximum(1840Nm) with and without abs, 810Nm without abs(typical for current setups).

Findings:
With abs you can trail brake as deep into the corner as you want, not having to worry about flatspots whatsoever. On top you will maintain perfect controllability over the car. Also as the back to front weight shift has been done already and deceleration is somewhat constant, car's behavior remains very predictable and stable.
Abs also reacts very quickly, around ~0.02s from the moment of abs engaging to disengaging. At 153km/h abs allows wheel speed to drop to 106km/h before taking action. At 73 km/h the same figure is 55km/h. I don't know what kind of speed differences real abs systems allow, so can't comment on this.

To compare braking distance i did a 160-0 brake test with xrg and analyzed the rafs with f1perfview. Results and graph are attached.
It can quickly be seen that with abs you achieve far greater avarage deceleration from 160-60 km/h, the difference is nearly 9%. As a result braking distance is shortened by 10 meters and it takes 0.25 seconds less to do so. This combined with being able to brake deeper into the corner with zero risk of flatspotting, you really can't be competitive without abs.
Keeping in mind this was with road_normal tyres, I'm fairly sure the differences would be even greater with road_super.

In essence the abs takes away from the challenge of driving these cars. It becomes dull and boring when you can get that perfect braking everytime without flatspots. The challenge and fun of trailbraking deep into the corner and keeping the car balanced while doing so is what motivates and rewards drivers. Learning driving techniques and mastering them is what should make a driver faster, not a button to enable abs.
Also now it really doesn't make a difference whether you drive with keyboard, mouse or wheel. Each of them can be equally fast, mouse probably being the fastest on the low power road cars.

I am not trying to say abs cannot be this effective, but driving aids should make it easier to drive around the circuit, not faster. In the older versions brake help eliminated some of the lock-ups, but it certainly didn't shorten your braking distances or make your laptimes quicker. LFS is supposed to be a pc simulator, but seeing how easy these cars are becoming to control it's ready to be ported into a console game.
Also i would like to know which road car racing series, or any racing series for that matter, allow the use of abs.

[EliteAti]

I deeply hope there will be a server side option to force abs on/off. If you don't use it while others do, you are giving up a huge advantage. I haven't tested complete laps, but i did a braking test.
Car used was xrg, brake force at maximum(1840Nm) with and without abs, 810Nm without abs(typical for current setups).

Findings:
With abs you can trail brake as deep into the corner as you want, not having to worry about flatspots whatsoever. On top you will maintain perfect controllability over the car. Also as the back to front weight shift has been done already and deceleration is somewhat constant, car's behavior remains very predictable and stable.
Abs also reacts very quickly, around ~0.02s from the moment of abs engaging to disengaging. At 153km/h abs allows wheel speed to drop to 106km/h before taking action. At 73 km/h the same figure is 55km/h. I don't know what kind of speed differences real abs systems allow, so can't comment on this.

To compare braking distance i did a 160-0 brake test with xrg and analyzed the rafs with f1perfview. Results and graph are attached.
It can quickly be seen that with abs you achieve far greater avarage deceleration from 160-60 km/h, the difference is nearly 9%. As a result braking distance is shortened by 10 meters and it takes 0.25 seconds less to do so. This combined with being able to brake deeper into the corner with zero risk of flatspotting, you really can't be competitive without abs.
Keeping in mind this was with road_normal tyres, I'm fairly sure the differences would be even greater with road_super.

In essence the abs takes away from the challenge of driving these cars. It becomes dull and boring when you can get that perfect braking everytime without flatspots. The challenge and fun of trailbraking deep into the corner and keeping the car balanced while doing so is what motivates and rewards drivers. Learning driving techniques and mastering them is what should make a driver faster, not a button to enable abs.
Also now it really doesn't make a difference whether you drive with keyboard, mouse or wheel. Each of them can be equally fast, mouse probably being the fastest on the low power road cars.

I am not trying to say abs cannot be this effective, but driving aids should make it easier to drive around the circuit, not faster. In the older versions brake help eliminated some of the lock-ups, but it certainly didn't shorten your braking distances or make your laptimes quicker. LFS is supposed to be a pc simulator, but seeing how easy these cars are becoming to control it's ready to be ported into a console game.

+1!

Second thing i would like to add that Hotlaps in LFSW cannot be made with ABS ON (luckily) and i hope it will remain the same in next patches. It will be just too fast then with not much braking distance...

[Töki (HUN)]

That barrier thing is fixed (minor bugs may be) so cars wont fly anymore.
Secong thing BUY S2!!!

He has. But the barrier bugs are not fixed yet.

[EliteAti]

He has. But the barrier bugs are not fixed yet.
Aint that much for me, tried to go thru barrier, it just pushed me back :shrug: instead of being a super trampoline. Yes, Shadowww has S2 (i know what you mean )

[tommer]

ABS? i'll give it ago

Not to be a downer but i've never been to keen on ABS anyway, kinda makes the racing less "dirty" in a sense that it kinda takes the skill out of it, but i suppose some people are incapable of pushing the button for the right amount or tapping the brake button at the correct speed :x


I like the fact that clutch is now in outside veiw gauge - but could you move it so it doesnt effect the old gears? it looks cramped with the gear moved up like that.. lol
http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/6999527c9fb3780b457e224ac7e69ac44g.jpg

[Nadeo4441]

Attempted fix for polygon errors seen on some graphics cards

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1005753#post1005753

Waiting for your reply over there :)

Both viewer and Z4 works perfectly with my FX5700. I love you :nod:

[Töki (HUN)]

Aint that much for me, tried to go thru barrier, it just pushed me back :shrug: instead of being a super trampoline. Yes, Shadowww has S2 (i know what you mean )

Yes but you don't fly away all the time when you hit a barrier. Sometimes you are pushed back.

[Drift King CZ]

Happens to me too, it's probably old bug. (Aston, down on the stadium)
http://kidcz.ic.cz/lfs/lfs_00000007.jpg
There are more places like this on different tracks :(.

[tommer]

I think most of the places i've seen were you "float" is Out Of Bounds (OOB) ie the picture earlier with the RAC - there minor problems that can be fixed later imo :thumb:

[Anzeee]

I deeply hope there will be a server side option to force abs on/off. If you don't use it while others do, you are giving up a huge advantage.
+1, i hope that servers will be able to force it too :thumb:.

[k 1778]

where do we put the file?:scratchch

[Inouva]

Shadows still overlay over the roof of pit and some bridges

72662

[Flame CZE]

where do we put the file?:scratchch
Just put it in your LFS directory, open it and press Extract. But it's recommended to backup your LFS directory first.

[wien]

Shadows still overlay over the roof of pit and some bridgesAnd? This isn't a bug, it's a side effect of the shadowing technique used in LFS. It's not visible when racing, so I don't see why it's worth spending time on?

[SpikeyMarcoD]

I see, with more and more leagues streaming there races.

[Juls]

Crazy polygons gone here too (fx5200).

[XmaX]

Another little bug, maybe known already
The Window cut of the object and smoke, see attachments

Max

[imthebestracerthereis]

so,the correct list:

Handbrake, engine on/off, revs redline, lights, pit lane limiter, hazard/indicator lights....
:thumb:

???
How come it doesn't come on when the car is shut off?

[Inouva]

And? This isn't a bug, it's a side effect of the shadowing technique used in LFS. It's not visible when racing, so I don't see why it's worth spending time on?

Changes in TEST PATCH Z3 :

Updated wheels on Formula BMW
Implemented ABS brakes in XFG / XRG / RB4 / FXO / XRT / FZ5
Improved wheel drawing system including rotating brake discs
Improved shadows - sharper and ambient shadow effect now included
InSim : New packets to start / search replays and take screenshots
FIX : Player name was wrong in entry screen on entry or after replay
FIX : Added checks to prevent guests joining with no user name or ID
FIX : OOS starting race after joining autocross host in entry screen

[wien]

...I'm well aware of what the changelog said, thank you. What about that made you think projected shadows suddenly wouldn't work like projected shadows anymore?

[Luke.S]

Ok i'm getting a really big problem now. I'm not sure if it is lfs or the host. I keep connecting and it is coming up saying › WS.C • Luke : JOOS - SET. I think this might be a setup related error.

[Ricerguy]

Just got a random crash, so I thought I'd post this.

Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: LFS.exe
Application Version: 0.0.0.0
Application Timestamp: 4943e997
Fault Module Name: d3d8.dll
Fault Module Version: 6.0.6000.16386
Fault Module Timestamp: 4549bcbf
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 00045bd7
OS Version: 6.0.6000.2.0.0.768.3
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Information 1: 34be
Additional Information 2: 930908fa4f3aa3e9b72cbee0cfd38581
Additional Information 3: e490
Additional Information 4: 443ecac083971922dce4d4ee089ff04e

[Christofire]

On closing LFS it crashed. Info:
Appname: lfs.exe
Modname: lfs.exe
Offset: 00151b55

This happened to Samh too - same info as above. We both quit lfs while on track after a race had finished. Sam did Alt-F4, I clicked the Windows Close Program red X.

I didn't have ABS enabled at the time (but I had previously during that session). Sam did have ABS enabled. Going to try to reproduce it reliably - will edit this if I get something.

Edit: Reproducible. Three of us have been able to do this.
Start a race, put either tyre temp or suspension overlays on and then close LFS. All crashes have reported the same offsets up there.
Things that don't cause the crash:
Other overlays.
If you quit before the race starts.

[Velociround]

???
How come it doesn't come on when the car is shut off?

It only shows if you manage to make your engine die (e.g. using manual clutch and gearbox, change to first gear and then let it die by taking out your foot/finger of the clutch pedal/button... you'll see that this indicator will turn on, just like on real life cars :thumb: )
It is supposed to make the driver know when the engine dies, so if you turn off the engine it wont show up because it didn't really died...

[KanseiDneova]

thanks for ABS, should help us mouse users :D

[Pablo.CZ]

I got OOS error in single player 0.5Z replay (LX4 race).

[Flame CZE]

Nice, now in Z4 it's not possible to drive a valid hotlap with going through the pitlane, thanks for that!

[WheelMan_92]

I cant say i have noticed this one before:
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s109/WheelMan_1992/bug1.png
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s109/WheelMan_1992/bug2.png
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s109/WheelMan_1992/bug3.png

And after some time i got out, and i was liek
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s109/WheelMan_1992/bug4.png
:x

[WheelMan_92]

I got OOS error in single player 0.5Z replay (LX4 race).
U get an OOS-error when the set you are using is edited in Z4, for some reason. According to Elmo the server gets confused :P

Try using a Z-set, and it should work. I also found out that it works if u make a "new" set.

[dougie-lampkin]

Seems a few people are getting the DX8 crash - see crash info sticky :(

[Flame CZE]

Yes, it's a a bug.

Modding!! Not welcome :)

And Scawen, please update Czech translations in next (test) patch ;)

[WheelMan_92]

Yes, it's a a bug.

Modding!! Not welcome :)
Sorry for that, just testing some for my friend.

Is it not allowed to attach screenshots with a modded car? I can remove it if u want :)

[[UKR] Race King]

Are car shadows suppose to look like that?

[MAGGOT]

It only shows if you manage to make your engine die (e.g. using manual clutch and gearbox, change to first gear and then let it die by taking out your foot/finger of the clutch pedal/button... you'll see that this indicator will turn on, just like on real life cars :thumb: )
It is supposed to make the driver know when the engine dies, so if you turn off the engine it wont show up because it didn't really died...

I'm thinking that would be the 'ignition on' light.

Thanks for the test patch Scawen. Seems to all be working fine on my end.

[John5200]

Another little bug, maybe known already
The Window cut of the object and smoke, see attachments

Max

yep already known. that happens with all unusual things like smoke and all moving objects exept cars(that got moved or tuched from their usual position.
:shrug:
for example: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=49232
or http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=50181

[Zen321]

I've got a little question concerning the hotlaps.

I tried to upload once XRG hotlap at WE1R, and I can't because that it's a test patch Z4 hotlap.
My question is : will I have to do it again? or well the test patch hotlaps can be converted anyhow in a future patch :)

Thanks for answering (I'm not ranting, I don't care about redoing it, since it's nowhere near the WR, I just need to know whether I should take a break of hotlapping :) )

[S14 DRIFT]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I think ABS is the biggest LFS boo-boo to date. I'm not for a bunch of people who, frankly, can't drive, being able to brake the same as me, if not under MORE control because some anti-skid thing is working for them. Some of us spent along time learning how to drive on the limit, only to find some fellow racer can do just as good as us on his/her first day. I hope you include some sort of server-side force option (i.e ABS can be ON or MUST BE OFF), or that (even better in my eyes) you limit ABS to keyboard and mouse users only.

Apart from my rant, I'm happy to report this Z4 test patch is working smooth with no problems that I've noticed :)

[John5200]

I've got a little question concerning the hotlaps.

I tried to upload once XRG hotlap at WE1R, and I can't because that it's a test patch Z4 hotlap.
My question is : will I have to do it again? or well the test patch hotlaps can be converted anyhow in a future patch :)

Thanks for answering (I'm not ranting, I don't care about redoing it, since it's nowhere near the WR, I just need to know whether I should take a break of hotlapping :) )

Most cars hotlaps will be unaffected, although some minor changes may affect some cars and so make some hotlap charts invalid. I can't give a definite list at the moment, sorry.

To avoid too much anticipation I'd like to make sure you know that there will not be any new content in the new patch other than the VW Scirocco.
btw... the second quote from scawen is false already now ^^ (ABS)

[D_Thrasher]

I think the ABS is a great inclusion personally. Road cars in real life have it, so why not the road cars in LFS? Leaving it out would make the sim *less* realistic. And of course, it's likely to make laps faster; the whole point of ABS is that it shortens braking distances and helps maintain control. I'm not saying that it should necessarily be used in races (the ability to ban ABS at the host's end would be a great idea IMO - I'm all for racing without ABS), but it's just an extra facet of the sim. Perhaps something to use on cruise servers, or just for playing around with. It could also help new drivers, as a learning aid.

If the racebred cars all had ABS too, then that'd obviously be unrealistic and would cause real problems, but since it's just the road cars, I don't see what the problem is.

Oh, thanks for the patch Scawen! The new shadows are a great improvement. :-)

[pearcy_2k7]

Its unfair though, especially to make the test patch compatible with Z, i currently don't have the test patch or abs but on CTRA Race 1 no matter how fast someone is they pwn the crap out of me under braking (one even went round the outside of me!)

[Anzeee]

Ye, i know you're feeling S14 DRIFT and that's why i realy hope that servers will be able to force ABS on or off for everybody. But ABS is great thing and i absolutely wish that it will stay in LFS forever (maybe with little updates). It's realy welcome on cruising and some racing servers. But as some people already said, forcing ABS on or off for everybody on servers will be realy good :thumb: !

[S14 DRIFT]

Maybe that's your driving mate (pearcy), I found no difference in overall braking distances (or being able to brake later) when using ABS and not using ABS. Of course, EASE of doing so varied greatly, one requied 100% brake and hold on, the other required limit braking and careful clutch control. Shame that 95% of people will go for the former. :(

(omg ppl agree with me HISTORY IS BEING MADE)

[jayhawk]

[To avoid too much anticipation I'd like to make sure you know that there will not be any new content in the new patch other than the VW Scirocco.

btw... the second quote from scawen is false already now ^^ (ABS)

omg teh scavier administration has lied

ghey

[Zen321]

I think the ABS is a great inclusion personally. Road cars in real life have it, so why not the road cars in LFS? Leaving it out would make the sim *less* realistic. And of course, it's likely to make laps faster; the whole point of ABS is that it shortens braking distances and helps maintain control. I'm not saying that it should necessarily be used in races (the ability to ban ABS at the host's end would be a great idea IMO - I'm all for racing without ABS), but it's just an extra facet of the sim. Perhaps something to use on cruise servers, or just for playing around with. It could also help new drivers, as a learning aid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3L4Pi5PmV4&feature=channel_page

At the end, there is a comparison with the ABS engaged (after the threshold of the grip, brake pedal depressed to the max), and at the end, just right before reaching the ABS threshold (it does not kick in).

The ABS at full braking can be compared to "cadence" braking we can see earlier in the video.

@Scawen : the ABS is a really good idea for LFS. However, maybe reducing its frequency (making the time when it releases the pressure a bit longer), or even lowering the pressure it applies when it releases the pressure so that it can't stay at the optimum braking point for too long would make it more balanced, and emphasize on the driving skills, instead of putting the brake pressure to the max and kicking it hard :nod:

[Riders Motion]

I think the new lights are like that : (See attachment)

Nice 246 FPS. :schwitz:

[gohfeld23]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I think ABS is the biggest LFS boo-boo to date. I'm not for a bunch of people who, frankly, can't drive, being able to brake the same as me, if not under MORE control because some anti-skid thing is working for them. Some of us spent along time learning how to drive on the limit, only to find some fellow racer can do just as good as us on his/her first day. I hope you include some sort of server-side force option (i.e ABS can be ON or MUST BE OFF), or that (even better in my eyes) you limit ABS to keyboard and mouse users only.

Apart from my rant, I'm happy to report this Z4 test patch is working smooth with no problems that I've noticed :)

As LFS is a SIM (simulated real life vehicle physics, racing, etc) and ABS is part of real life, it's quite logical for ABS to be included.
LFS is NOT a personal e-dick extender and as such should not be limited to hotlappers who perfected the track.

LFS is all about close racing, at least to a vast majority of people. If someone who just started racing has the ability to give me the closest race of a lifetime, so be it. I welcome it with open arms, regardless whether ABS helped them. We all have the same tools at our disposal.

Leagues should have the ability to force ABS off for logical reasons, however it would be a shame if the majority of servers forced it off.
And if added features make LFS more inviting to a wider crowd of "gamers" by making it more accessible, how could one possibly dislike that?

It's not about who finishes first. It's about the ride IMO.

[wheel4hummer]

The inclusion of ABS could reduce the amount of accidents that new drivers (virtual LFS drivers, that is :P) get into.

[plehto]

I think the ABS is a great inclusion personally. Road cars in real life have it, so why not the road cars in LFS? Leaving it out would make the sim *less* realistic. And of course, it's likely to make laps faster; the whole point of ABS is that it shortens braking distances and helps maintain control.

Yes, road cars do have abs for safety reasons. But abs is prohibited in almost all racing. So choose your poison, which realism is the one we want to go after? A super safe volvo or a race car, i know which one is my choise. Take the mainstreaming approach and you'll have a console game in your hands. Not really challenging, easy to learn, loss of interest in a couple of months.
Also the idea of abs is to maintain steering, not to shorten braking distances. In many cases braking distance with abs is longer compared to locked tyres.

The suggestion of making abs response rate slower and making the brake pressure release greater/longer sound like viable options. As said in my previous post, right now it takes ~0.02s for the system to release brake pressure making the abs system work at around 50Hz. From googling i found results varying from 15 up to 20Hz.

[S14 DRIFT]

How about a super safe volvo race car? (http://image.automobilemag.com/f/green/2008-volvo-c30-race-car-burns-e85/10301028+cr1+re0+ar1/volvo-c80-e85.jpg) :D

As LFS is a SIM (simulated real life vehicle physics, racing, etc) and ABS is part of real life, it's quite logical for ABS to be included. A racing sim, where ABS is banned in nearly all motorsports.

LFS is NOT a personal e-dick extender and as such should not be limited to hotlappers who perfected the track. Very true, it's a game where people who are better than others should be able to drive better than others. Limit braking is a pretty simple skill to learn, and I think your comment is rather unfair. I'm far from a hotlapper, and I perfectly accept that others may not be as quick as myself, however what I don't approve of is them being able to make up some of the extra time, that they'd lose because they don't know about limit braking, by having anti-lock do it for them. :shrug:


LFS is all about close racing, at least to a vast majority of people. If someone who just started racing has the ability to give me the closest race of a lifetime, so be it. I welcome it with open arms, regardless whether ABS helped them. We all have the same tools at our disposal. I would prefer to race with someone who is of the same ABILITY of me, not 15% slower than me but has all sorts of driving aids. ABS does not make them increase their mid-corner speed and will only be 'better' on the brakes.


Leagues should have the ability to force ABS off for logical reasons, however it would be a shame if the majority of servers forced it off. Semi-agreed. Servers such as CTRA were there are established track record systems and extra points awarded for fast laptimes should have it off - because then it's not skill that's driving, it's a computer helping you.

And if added features make LFS more inviting to a wider crowd of "gamers" by making it more accessible, how could one possibly dislike that?



It's not about who finishes first. It's about the ride IMO. It's racing, so to me, it's about who finishes in the top 3. :razz:


Responses in bold, cba with extra formatting.

[Hyperactive]

The suggestion of making abs response rate slower and making the brake pressure release greater/longer sound like viable options.

Indeed. And it would make the ABS to handle more like the ABS you'd find in those old cars instead of some super advanced racing ABS that also acts as ESP. Which I guess is next?

[hda]

if, while braking with ABS on you push the handbrake the rear wheels will light up in the tire temperature display (F9) like abs is being applied onto them while it is not.

Tried it with 95% brake balance in the front wheels, first didn't push the handbrake to confirm my assumption was correct and by the second time I did, creating a flatspot on the rear tires

[wheel4hummer]

if, while braking with ABS on you push the handbrake the rear wheels will light up in the tire temperature display (F9) like abs is being applied onto them while it is not.

That's how it works in real life too. ABS cannot be applied to the handbrake, but it attempts to apply it to the regular brakes, whether or not they are applied at all.

[pearcy_2k7]

Maybe that's your driving mate (pearcy), I found no difference in overall braking distances (or being able to brake later) when using ABS and not using ABS. Of course, EASE of doing so varied greatly, one requied 100% brake and hold on, the other required limit braking and careful clutch control. Shame that 95% of people will go for the former. :(

(omg ppl agree with me HISTORY IS BEING MADE)

It wasn't my driving, i was on the combo earlier and if im half a car lenght infront down the inside, before ABS i sually end up infront unless i hit the grass on exit, my braking was perfect, even hit the limiter trying to get some extra braking power and he still went round the outside and he was like a sec slower a lap than me, it doesn't just give you stability during braking, pauli said it gives extra braking power which from what ive seen seems to be pretty accurate.

[S14 DRIFT]

:x Sounds wierd

But yeah, does give some extra power, I'm sure, but I haven't noticed it first hand. What I have noticed is that it cuts in when I trail brake (I have a pretty rearward setup so it's lovely and neutral under braking, and it insists on stopping the rear wheels locking up, even if they would lock momentarily.)

Overall I'm probably around the same with ABS as I am without, and unless I find myself being swamped by people who have to use it to win, I shant be using it myself. Any time I make up underbrakes is lost because I can't trailbrake properly, so yeah. Just waiting for my beloved FE Gold REV record to be taken by some monkey who is ABS happy (that's a track where ABS could really help ._.)

[hda]

That's how it works in real life too. ABS cannot be applied to the handbrake, but it attempts to apply it to the regular brakes, whether or not they are applied at all.
but if that was the case wouldn't the rear wheels "light up" in the F9 display while braking normally instead of just lighting up when you use the handbrake?

[wheel4hummer]

but if that was the case wouldn't the rear wheels "light up" in the F9 display while braking normally

They do if you lock them up.

[Demon68]

The ABS option is available for the slow cars only. It make's it easier for beginners. It helps them driving their first laps, so I think it's a good thing..
More experience drivers don't drive these slow cars anyway.

[wheel4hummer]

FZ5 isn't my idea of a slow car. ABS is on the cars that would realistically have ABS on them. Obviously, the LX's wouldn't realistically have ABS. And neither would any of the race cars, the UF1, or the RAC.

[Krammeh]

Mirrors are all black while in chaseview... I'm sure they used to work, could be wrong though!

[Velociround]

Mirrors are all black while in chaseview... I'm sure they used to work, could be wrong though!

There's a option on "view" where you can set "real/virtual/both" :thumb:

Anyway, by default chase view have never had real mirrors working, just the virtual ones...

[Glenn67]

To say experienced drivers wouldn't choose to drive the slower cars is totally incorect and even bordering on arrogant imo. I choose to drive most of the time in road cars, it's a choice that has nothing to do with experience, competitiveness or the size of my epenis :p

[Demon68]

To say experienced drivers wouldn't choose to drive the slower cars is totally incorect and even bordering on arrogant imo. I choose to drive most of the time in road cars, it's a choice that has nothing to do with experience, competitiveness or the size of my epenis :p
sorry I didn't want to offend anyone, but in real life every racedriver want's to procede to a faster race class if he get's the change.
the ultimed goal always is the F1.
Maybe in LFS people are happy to stay in those little cars.
That's perfectly fine, but not for me.
A car is never fast enough :)

[ADOLF1612]

A Bug here, i think it was noticied by annother guy in this forum too, btw the new shadows works fine, except by this bug (see pic, those "shadow Lines"), is there a way to solve it? really focuse on it, please.

PD: here i´m using an ATI radeon 9200/9250 Series, 128Mb DDR, it works fine with normal patch Z, but with this one (as you can see) not:shrug:.

Adolfo Herrera.

[Glenn67]

sorry I didn't want to offend anyone, but in real life every racedriver want's to procede to a faster race class if he get's the change.
the ultimed goal always is the F1.

You didn't offend ;) I just wanted to state an alternative view.

You say every racedriver, well I beg to differ. Irl alot of race drivers aspire to progress as high as possible, but that has more to do with fame and fortune than it has to do with racing. I am damn sure that is not the driving motivation of all race drivers though :p

In LFS we have the opportunity to race for enjoyment and passion so that doesn't automatically mean I want to progress to the GTRs, F08 or F1. Infact I have always recieved alot enjoyment out of racing the uf1, xfg or xrg. I get the most enjoyment out of the lx6, rac and fz5.

So to insinuate changes made to the slower cars are unimportant as all serious drivers want be driving them is way off base.

And as to a car is never fast enough, my take on it is - striaght line speed is irrelevant; it's how quickly you can go around corners that matters :razz:

I think both the posts quoted below are very valid.

As LFS is a SIM (simulated real life vehicle physics, racing, etc) and ABS is part of real life, it's quite logical for ABS to be included.
LFS is NOT a personal e-dick extender and as such should not be limited to hotlappers who perfected the track.

LFS is all about close racing, at least to a vast majority of people. If someone who just started racing has the ability to give me the closest race of a lifetime, so be it. I welcome it with open arms, regardless whether ABS helped them. We all have the same tools at our disposal.

Leagues should have the ability to force ABS off for logical reasons, however it would be a shame if the majority of servers forced it off.
And if added features make LFS more inviting to a wider crowd of "gamers" by making it more accessible, how could one possibly dislike that?

It's not about who finishes first. It's about the ride IMO

Yes, road cars do have abs for safety reasons. But abs is prohibited in almost all racing. So choose your poison, which realism is the one we want to go after? A super safe volvo or a race car, i know which one is my choise. Take the mainstreaming approach and you'll have a console game in your hands. Not really challenging, easy to learn, loss of interest in a couple of months.
Also the idea of abs is to maintain steering, not to shorten braking distances. In many cases braking distance with abs is longer compared to locked tyres.

The suggestion of making abs response rate slower and making the brake pressure release greater/longer sound like viable options. As said in my previous post, right now it takes ~0.02s for the system to release brake pressure making the abs system work at around 50Hz. From googling i found results varying from 15 up to 20Hz.

[DragonCommando]

Even on modern vehicles, ABS will increase brake distance when compared to threshhold braking.

From longest to shortest brake distance it goes:
-Locked wheels
-ABS
-Threshhold

I know this for a fact because I've driven a vehicle with modern ABS and I hated how it would increase the brake distance when it kicked in.

If the ABS in LFS gives you an advantage right now, it should be adjusted so that it doesn't. Considering the age of the cars it should pulse the brakes from On to almost completely off, and do it about 4-5 times a second. I actualy timed the pulses on an old car before, to see how fast it worked. I did this on an old mercury 4 door. This car also had an old version of traction control.

[mxpxun]

this looks like a bug

[MijnWraak]

Even on modern vehicles, ABS will increase brake distance when compared to threshhold braking.

From longest to shortest brake distance it goes:
-Locked wheels
-ABS
-Threshhold

I know this for a fact because I've driven a vehicle with modern ABS and I hated how it would increase the brake distance when it kicked in.

If the ABS in LFS gives you an advantage right now, it should be adjusted so that it doesn't. Considering the age of the cars it should pulse the brakes from On to almost completely off, and do it about 4-5 times a second. I actualy timed the pulses on an old car before, to see how fast it worked. I did this on an old mercury 4 door. This car also had an old version of traction control.
JasonJ, Skstibi, and I did a test today with the XRG on which distance is longer; abs threshold or locked wheels. Our tests concluded that ABS was shortest distance, threshhold was second, and locked were longest. (im sure JasonJ will make a thread or post about our findings later ;)) But in the Fz5, the data was far different. The locked wheels went a lot further, and the threshold was a tiny bit less than ABS. We could have tested more cars, but eh.

[Snake2]

Can't wait for the VW:D

[Danas]

I can still see this, problem? :scratchch

[Shadowww]

Just pointed that with ABS on mine hotlaps are slower :x

[AndroidXP]

I can still see this, problem? :scratchch
No. This is a sideeffect of the brake discs now rotating with the wheels or was implemented specifically as optimization.
btw... the second quote from scawen is false already now ^^ (ABS)
I guess you don't understand what "content" means then? Content refers to cars and tracks, the substance of the game. ABS is just a new simulation feature.
Also the idea of abs is to maintain steering, not to shorten braking distances. In many cases braking distance with abs is longer compared to locked tyres.The only case where this is true is a specific kind of snow and maybe on gravel.

[Stang70Fastback]

Also the idea of abs is to maintain steering, not to shorten braking distances. In many cases braking distance with abs is longer compared to locked tyres.The only case where this is true is a specific kind of snow and maybe on gravel.

To clarify, the first part of plehto's post was correct, the idea of ABS ON ANY SURFACE is to maintain steering. AndroidXP's statement applies to the fact that braking distances are longer with ABS than with locked tyres... which is only true on certain surfaces.

Just clearing that up before people inevitably start arguing.

[EliteAti]

Yes but you don't fly away all the time when you hit a barrier. Sometimes you are pushed back.

It was like 90% when you hit barrier you can believe you can fly. But now its only about 10-20% to me

[vari]

In many cases braking distance with abs is longer compared to locked tyres.

Even on modern vehicles, ABS will increase brake distance when compared to threshhold braking.

Since it's unclear which surface types you mean I tried to find some facts. I wouldn't make generalisations perhaps implying that it should be so in LFS.

This report (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/NRD/Multimedia/PDFs/VRTC/ca/capubs/NHTSAabsT4FinalRpt.pdf) was made ten years ago. Attached is the summary.

[nesrulz]

this looks like a bug

Same here...

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/656/27193547bl4.png

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4492/30535850gk7.png

Or that's not a BUG?

[AndroidXP]

^ Yes, this was one of the first things reported, Scawen knows about it.

[Scawen]

Just got a random crash, so I thought I'd post this.

Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: LFS.exe
Application Version: 0.0.0.0
Application Timestamp: 4943e997
Fault Module Name: d3d8.dll
Fault Module Version: 6.0.6000.16386
Fault Module Timestamp: 4549bcbf
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 00045bd7
OS Version: 6.0.6000.2.0.0.768.3
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Information 1: 34be
Additional Information 2: 930908fa4f3aa3e9b72cbee0cfd38581
Additional Information 3: e490
Additional Information 4: 443ecac083971922dce4d4ee089ff04eAbout this one, I've just asked a few questions in the crash thread where two other people reported apparently the same crash.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1006454#post1006454

On closing LFS it crashed. Info:
Appname: lfs.exe
Modname: lfs.exe
Offset: 00151b55

This happened to Samh too - same info as above. We both quit lfs while on track after a race had finished. Sam did Alt-F4, I clicked the Windows Close Program red X.

I didn't have ABS enabled at the time (but I had previously during that session). Sam did have ABS enabled. Going to try to reproduce it reliably - will edit this if I get something.

Edit: Reproducible. Three of us have been able to do this.
Start a race, put either tyre temp or suspension overlays on and then close LFS. All crashes have reported the same offsets up there.
Things that don't cause the crash:
Other overlays.
If you quit before the race starts.Thank you and well done for finding a way to reproduce it but I can't seem to reproduce it yet.

EDIT : Now reproduced and fixed - http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1006574#post1006574

I was just using cockpit view, I tried with SHIFT+L and F9, single player and multiplayer, with and without AI (on Blackwood) and LFS exited cleanly each time I pressed the X or ALT+F4.

Please can you provide the simplest possible description : car, track, selected view, selected overlay, any other info?

At least the crash address is inside the LFS module in this case so I have a clue where to start looking, but it would be a lot easier if I could catch it in the debugger.

[John5200]

Same here...

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/656/27193547bl4.png



Or that's not a BUG?
yes, it´s a bug, but my question is: what is the numberplate doing there? ^^ if you have a flat, the numberplate would come at the place of the old tire with the Spare Tire :scratchch

[plehto]

Since it's unclear which surface types you mean I tried to find some facts. I wouldn't make generalisations perhaps implying that it should be so in LFS.

This report (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/NRD/Multimedia/PDFs/VRTC/ca/capubs/NHTSAabsT4FinalRpt.pdf) was made ten years ago. Attached is the summary.

Yes, I didn't mention any specific conditions because it didn't have any relevance to lfs or to this conversation. I was simply pointing out the principle behind abs design, while understanding it doesn't shorten your braking distance in all conditions. The discussion shouldn't be about abs benefits on different surfaces, that's offtopic. The focus should be on whether we need abs in the game at all and if so, is the current abs operation in patch z4 what we want see in the final patch. Do we really want to make this game about road safety or should racing be the priority?


Tekniikan Maailma 7/2005, page 150, found the following in their tests:
Test car VW Golf 1.6 FSI '05, using Continental ContiVikingContact 3 and Nokian Hakkapeliitta 4(studded)
With studded winter tyres on asphalt, snow and ice braking distances are as follows:
locked: 47m, 57m, 230m
threshold braking(no abs): 38m, 62m, 191m
threshold braking(abs): 40m, 66m, 221m
abs: 35m, 68m, 237m

With non-studded winter tyres results were:
locked: 45m, 53m, 255m
threshold braking(no abs): 37m, 59m, 295m
abs: 32m, 64m, 404m

On loose surfaces results would be similar.

I also went through that test you posted, the methods how the test was performed are very questionable.
A few things that bothered me:
3.1 Test Vehicles
"Eight test vehicles were purchased or leased from central ohio automobile dealerships. Seven were obtained from used car lots, and one from a dealership's pool car fleet."
"The tires on each test vehicle were steel belted radials. Each set was inspected and found to be in acceptable condition and of the sizes specified by manufacturers."
"The brakepads, rotors, drums and shoes were tested in 'as is' condition unless it was necessary to replace them(e.g., one vehicle's rear brake pads wre worn past their wear limits)"

Car manufacturers or models aren't mentioned either, just the model year.
Call me a sceptic, but a test conducted with multiple cars and their tires and brake components tested 'as is' isn't very scientific. Just the tires and how old/worn they are can make a big difference, especially in wet conditions. Multiple other things could have altered the results: suspension geometry, wear of brake components to name a few.

A proper test would use a single vehicle and disclose it's make, tyres used and other relevant data regarding the test. A controlled test environment includes the vehicle and all components related to it.

[SamH]

Please can you provide the simplest possible description : car, track, selected view, selected overlay, any other info?
Chris is driving to Aberdeen so probably won't see this until tonight.

I can reliably invoke a crash if I use F9 or F10 overlay and exit from an online race using Alt+F4.

Tested so far:
Cars: FXO, RB4, XFR, XRT, FO8
Tracks: SO1, AS1, FE1, WE1
View: Cockpit, real gauges and mirrors
Overlays: F9, F10
Server host: 0.5Z

AOI:
Specifically, the crash doesn't happen if you exit a race before the minimap appears. There is a window of second or so between the lights going green and the minimap appearing. I get a clean exit until AND after the lights go green, but LFS crashes if I wait until the minimap appears and then exit.

All crashes happen when either F9 or F10 are active. No crashes occur if the F9 or F10 overlays are not active.

[Shadowww]

Chris is driving to Aberdeen so probably won't see this until tonight.

I can reliably invoke a crash if I use F9 or F10 overlay and exit from an online race using Alt+F4.

Tested so far:
Cars: FXO, RB4, XFR, XRT, FO8
Tracks: SO1, AS1, FE1, WE1
View: Cockpit, real gauges and mirrors
Overlays: F9, F10
Server host: 0.5Z

AOI:
Specifically, the crash doesn't happen if you exit a race before the minimap appears. There is a window of second or so between the lights going green and the minimap appearing. I get a clean exit until AND after the lights go green, but LFS crashes if I wait until the minimap appears and then exit.

All crashes happen when either F9 or F10 are active. No crashes occur if the F9 or F10 overlays are not active.
Isn't Fraps running in background? F9 and F10 are keys to start/stop capturing movie and to capture screenshots. I ask it because with FBM@BL1 i get no crash with minimap, on practice or with laps.

[SamH]

Isn't Fraps running in background? F9 and F10 are keys to start/stop capturing movie and to capture screenshots. I ask it because with FBM@BL1 i get no crash with minimap, on practice or with laps.
Good point it is running, but no. FRAPS is listening to "#" and Scroll Lock on my config :)

Also, Reintjan isn't running FRAPs but can invoke the same crash.

[AndroidXP]

Yes, I can reproduce it too.

1) Join a Z host
2) Turn on F9 / F10 view
3) Start the race
4) Wait for the start lights to vanish / the track map to appear
5) Alt+F4

[John5200]

I ve another question: why can´t we turn off ABS during race / driving? Because you can turn it on / off in RL during driving also :scratchch

[Shadowww]

Yes, I can reproduce it too.

1) Join a Z host
2) Turn on F9 / F10 view
3) Start the race
4) Wait for the start lights to vanish / the track map to appear
5) Alt+F4
Isn't disassembling denied by EULA? :razz:

[Scawen]

Thank you - I tracked that crash down, reproduced it, fixed it and now cannot reproduce it. :)

Will release it soon when I've done a few more fixes and you can verify that.

[AndroidXP]

Isn't disassembling denied by EULA? :razz:
No. http://www.lfs.net/?page=agreement

How about contributing something useful for a change? :razz:

[ACCAkut]

afaik you can (in most cars) only turn of the ESP/Stability control, but not the ABS, these two are completly different systems. My ABS turns of if I apply the handbrake while driving (noticed this last week) tho.

[Scawen]

I think he was just joking because of your excellent debugging screenshot! :D

Now Android, as you are able to get call stacks, please can you reproduce that othe DX8 crash as well. :nod: :tilt: :scratchch

[Hyperactive]

afaik you can (in most cars) only turn of the ESP/Stability control, but not the ABS, these two are completly different systems. My ABS turns of if I apply the handbrake while driving (noticed this last week) tho.

I'd guess the ABS doesn't turn off, it is just that the sensor(s) that measure the rotation speed of the rear tires reads zero speed (if you have locked the rears) or lowered speed. As a result when you apply brakes the abs doesn't kick in until the fronts start spinning slower than the rears. Or dunno, might be just as wel that abs is turned off when you apply little amount of handbrake...

[vari]

The discussion shouldn't be about abs benefits on different surfaces, that's offtopic.

This is a test patch thread that has a new implementation called ABS. How is it exactly offtopic to make comparisons to the real device that it's simulating?

I don't think that the intention of this tread is just to discuss what and whatnot should be in but rather how well the changes work, or both.

When you say that a test should be made with one new car I have to disagree as it's known to change from vehicle to vehicle (unless of course it's those specific cars we have in the game). And the fact that you post figures about winter tyres is somewhat amusing since LFS doesn't have those. (Even though ABS seems to outperform on tarmac)

You also mention the fact that the cars were used (in the report I posted). I would probably concentrate more on the fact that they were using more than 10 year old
ABS systems probably making them less effective compared to what we have today.

I don't think that it makes much difference that they used old cars and brake components when it comes to the balance between ABS and non ABS braking. If anything, it's likely to make ABS less effective in my opinion but that isn't a fact, just a gut feeling.

And finally, should ABS be in the game? In my opinion yes because it's a simulator afterall.

[AndroidXP]

Now Android, as you are able to get call stacks, please can you reproduce that othe DX8 crash as well. :nod: :tilt: :scratchchHeh, if only it were that easy :(

[AndroidXP]

LOL. That said, I just got the DX8 crash randomly. I'm on WinXP SP3 here, so it's not a Vista issue.

[hotmail]

LOL. That said, I just got the DX8 crash randomly. I'm on WinXP SP3 here, so it's not a Vista issue.
Lol, Lucky scawen:shy:

[ACCAkut]

I'd guess the ABS doesn't turn off...
no, I meant if I apply the handbrake once (drifted through a corner) and disengage the handbrake, the ABS light on the dashboard stays on for the rest of the drive, restarting the motor solves it:shrug:

[dustthatass]

LOL I was aware of something going on when I saw 71 people viewing the patch test forum.

Thanks Scavier!!!

[Napalm Candy]

2 things.

First, I want to say that it is a trhead to disscus possible problems with new patch, not to discuss if ABS is well or not.

Second, I never understand problems with Add-ons, FZ5 from the begining had Traction Control, you can use or not, I think that the majority don't use in Hotlap or Race becouse it is slower. Make the same with ABS if you like use, if you don't like don't use

[BoyGTA]

I have the problem with the number plate in lx4 too. :scratchch
Waiting new patch. :)

[Vain]

Can we get some technical data on the LFS-ABS?
E.g. can someone make a braking test on flat asphalt and read out the braking force? That way we can analyse how the LFS-ABS works and compare it to real life systems.
I've personally worked a bit with the internals of a very recent ABS system and I'd like to see how well LFS implements it.

Vain

[Nadeo4441]

I have an idea. Add ABS byte to NPL packet in insim, so leagues can control it? Like restictions

[Whiskey]

I have the problem with the number plate in lx4 too.

I have an idea. Add ABS byte to NPL packet in insim, so leagues can control it? Like restictions

Already known

Can we get some technical data on the LFS-ABS?
E.g. can someone make a braking test on flat asphalt and read out the braking force? That way we can analyse how the LFS-ABS works and compare it to real life systems.

A graphic is in one post in this same thread comparing ABS ON/OFF at max presure and ABS Off at normal pressure.

[Vain]

Oh, I'm sorry I missed that. I saw the picture but didn't know what it was supposed to represent. I still don't know. It doesn't look much like anything at all.
Anyway, since it claims to be braking torque and I'm fairly sure that it's what LFS calculated I rest my case. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Vain

[plehto]

This is a test patch thread that has a new implementation called ABS. How is it exactly offtopic to make comparisons to the real device that it's simulating?

I don't think that the intention of this tread is just to discuss what and whatnot should be in but rather how well the changes work, or both.

When you say that a test should be made with one new car I have to disagree as it's known to change from vehicle to vehicle (unless of course it's those specific cars we have in the game). And the fact that you post figures about winter tyres is somewhat amusing since LFS doesn't have those. (Even though ABS seems to outperform on tarmac)

You also mention the fact that the cars were used (in the report I posted). I would probably concentrate more on the fact that they were using more than 10 year old
ABS systems probably making them less effective compared to what we have today.

I don't think that it makes much difference that they used old cars and brake components when it comes to the balance between ABS and non ABS braking. If anything, it's likely to make ABS less effective in my opinion but that isn't a fact, just a gut feeling.

And finally, should ABS be in the game? In my opinion yes because it's a simulator afterall.

You are putting words in my mouth or failing to understand what i wrote.
At no point did i say we shouldn't make comparision to the real life counterpart. I said the conditions where abs is at disadvantage in braking distance are not relevant to lfs or this discussion. Hence why it has the off-topic quote as it's not related to anything in lfs.
Also at any point i did not comment on how abs affects braking distance in real life on tarmac and equivalent hard surfaces, or the validity of the results in the research you posted. I did not say abs shouldn't shorten braking distances in lfs, but if such an option is provided at it's current state you will gain considerable advantage in terms of braking distance, controllability and lack of flatspots.

Furthermore i did not say the test should use one new car, but a single vehicle. The point is the test environment has to be controlled. With used second or even third owner cars(read: cars with x kilometers driven, not old e.g. from year 1990) you cannot ensure any of that. You can play the guessing game on how it might or might not have affected the results, but the fact is results achieved like this arent reliable.
Also an abs system has some sort of diagnostic that'll let you know if there's something wrong with the system, without abs you have no idea until you virtually have no brake pads left.

Once again, I did not doubt that with abs you can and will achieve shorter braking distances in a number of conditions. Nor did I say that the results are completely wrong, but that they are not reliable or exact. Therefore I wouldn't quote them as facts.
If you want to continue your war on me, trying to disprove everything i say with invalid arguments, be my guest. You can also continue your mission on proving abs shortens braking distance, which i don't deny it does, but I will not be replying to any further messages.

Can we get some technical data on the LFS-ABS?
E.g. can someone make a braking test on flat asphalt and read out the braking force? That way we can analyse how the LFS-ABS works and compare it to real life systems.
I've personally worked a bit with the internals of a very recent ABS system and I'd like to see how well LFS implements it.

Vain
I already did some testing, they are in my previous post: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1005928#post1005928

[Flame CZE]

Scawen will you update some training lessons so there will be some info about ABS?

[vari]

I said the conditions where abs is at disadvantage in braking distance are not relevant to lfs or this discussion.

Yet we have tarmac, gravel and grass in LFS. :scratchch

You said that LFS ABS reacts too quickly providing some figures and whatnot. I'm merely trying to point out that no matter how much worse you make it while still keeping it somewhat realistic (10 year old ABS systems, old brakes and cars), it'll still be better than non ABS braking so that won't help your mission so to speak.

Making it worse to the point to where it no longer simulates any real system would only put us back to square one almost (old brake help).

I don't know why you think this is some sort of war but I think it's probably best we let this be. :shrug:

[Rascar13]

I was on a server yesterday which got a setup error where we got disconnected. I bet its because of the ABS, because once i turned ABS off and i didnt disconnect while the other did.

[anttt69]

Race King;1006122']Are car shadows suppose to look like that?

nice Blackwood textures where did u get them?

[Flame CZE]

For those who are interested in ABS in LFS I made little ABS test with XRG. Speed: 80 kph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEjodhr-Mjc&fmt=22

With ABS, the brake distance is a little bit longer :)

[plehto]

Ok I'll break my promise just this once.
You are again quoting me out of context, this is how it should go

I said the conditions where abs is at disadvantage in braking distance are not relevant to lfs or this discussion. Hence why it has the off-topic quote as it's not related to anything in lfs.
*insert winter tyre results from the offtopic quote here*
I'm sure you can find a way to quote a part of this post as well to prove something wrong. And yes, I did not think about gravel or grass at that time, as i don't find grass to have enough traction or gravel physics to be adequate for racing.

Also if VW required abs to be modeled for the scirocco, just like TC for BMW F1, why does it need to be added to all the road cars?

[Specht77]

I got an error... I was drifting on BL1 gp rev, and I wanted to rally, then I chose BL1 Rallycross REV, and pressed OK, when it finished loading the track, it crashed...

Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: LFS.exe
Application Version: 0.0.0.0
Application Timestamp: 4943e997
Fault Module Name: d3d8.dll
Fault Module Version: 6.0.6001.18000
Fault Module Timestamp: 4791a65b
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 00045bf7
OS Version: 6.0.6001.2.1.0.256.1
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Information 1: 64ea
Additional Information 2: cce9f653dd0f8eec446de52154d2f82d
Additional Information 3: bc8e
Additional Information 4: a8695c495b6422110fd841b26f6810d9

i'm bad in english and don't know much about errors, hope this helped :shy:

[Byku]

For those who are interested in ABS in LFS I made little ABS test with XRG. Speed: 80 kph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEjodhr-Mjc&fmt=22

With ABS, the brake distance is a little bit longer :)

Also tried 1500NM on XRG on autocross... from ~105Km/h around 42,5 meter with ABS, without under 40 meters!

[Scawen]

LOL. That said, I just got the DX8 crash randomly. I'm on WinXP SP3 here, so it's not a Vista issue.Thank you, it gave me a clue though I have not identified the problem entirely.

I got an error... I was drifting on BL1 gp rev, and I wanted to rally, then I chose BL1 Rallycross REV, and pressed OK, when it finished loading the track, it crashed...

Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: LFS.exe
Application Version: 0.0.0.0
Application Timestamp: 4943e997
Fault Module Name: d3d8.dll
Fault Module Version: 6.0.6001.18000
Fault Module Timestamp: 4791a65b
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 00045bf7
OS Version: 6.0.6001.2.1.0.256.1
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Information 1: 64ea
Additional Information 2: cce9f653dd0f8eec446de52154d2f82d
Additional Information 3: bc8e
Additional Information 4: a8695c495b6422110fd841b26f6810d9

i'm bad in english and don't know much about errors, hope this helped :shy:Thanks, yes this crash has happened to quite a few people now - the characteristic is that "Fault Module Name: d3d8.dll"

I have done a possible fix but I am not at all confident about it, anyway test patch Z5 is coming soon...

[AMB]

What happened to, LFS is a driving simulator, No driving aids, YOU do the driving.

really failed on that one huh.

[Scawen]

Thank you very much for the testing.

I have now uploaded Test Patch Z5 with :

New language included : Español Latino (still need to add a flag)
FIX : Crash on closing LFS from multiplayer while tyres displayed
Probable fix for shadow stretching bug on some graphics cards
Possible fix for an apparently random crash in D3D8.dll

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=51391