The RB4's Future ?

[GotiKGotcha]

I think Victor says that the RB4 might be in a Rally version but he doesn't know if a GTR version is possible.


I'm still in love with LFS and particularly with the RB4.
I just think it's a pitty this car has not a powerful version. A GTR version, why not ? ^^
I know some french drivers like this RBR idea :)
But what do you prefer if a new RB4 version is envisaged for a future addon or for the S3: a Rallycross RB4 or a RB4 GTR ?

Here is my 3ds work of my dream:
A RB4 GTR (RBR)

In pictures :
http://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotchap.jpg (http://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha.jpg)
http://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha2p.jpg (http://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha2.jpg)http://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha3p.jpg (http://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha3.jpg)http://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha4p.jpg (http://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha4.jpg)http://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha5p.jpg (http://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha5.jpg)
http://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha6p.jpg (http://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha6.jpg)
[Click to enlarge]


In numbers :
Four wheel drive

Engine:
2.0 litre turbocharged inline 4
Power:
365 kW (490 bhp) @ 6278 rpm
Torque:
627 Nm (461 lbft) @ 4782 rpm
Total Mass:
1130 kg (2492 lbs)
Power-weight:
330 W/kg (450 bhp/ton)
Weight dist:
57.5 F 42.5 R

In words :
The RB4 GTR (RBR) could have 4 wheel drive like the FXO GTR with a speed around the XR GTR's one. It could have a little feeling of a rear wheel drive with 70% of traction on the rear wheels (for example).The wear of the tires could being equivalent with the XR GTR's one but with a small fuel overconsumption like the FZ50 GTR's one :)

What do you think about it?

[Forbin]

I don't really see the point of an RB4 GTR. We already have the FXO GTR which is all wheel drive.

As for a Rally RB4, I could definitely see that, but for the current tracks, I think the current RB4 is sufficient. You wouldn't gain much from having more power on the current tracks.

[Stellios]

YES!!!

I want a RB4 GTR sooo badly. I love the FXR to bits, but the range feels strange with the RB4 missing. I would love it to be a bit faster than the FXR so its on par with the XRG.

[Priitmek]

I would love to see that one in the game!:thumb:

[tristancliffe]

I'm with Forbin here - an RB4 GTR wouldn't actually add anything to the game. However, an RB4 WRC, with greater suspension travel, and set up as close to a real WRC as possible (restricted turbochargred engine) would be brilliant.

Add WRC style tyres for it (and it alone unless we get other WRC variants), including WRC style slicks for road courses (and road rally courses on day :D), and you'd have a winner.

[Hyperactive]

Too close to the FXR :) If you look at the numbers, the FXR and the RBR would be almost identical, both with 2 litre turbo engine and same layout and almost identical weight distribution. It has been suggested few times. I'd like to see (copied/pasted from other thread):

Mid-engine XRR, XRM: http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/7945/xrm6di.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/7945/xrm6di.jpg)

Ra GTR (by Quicksilver) but with roof!http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/8518/ragtr9cl.th.jpg (http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ragtr9cl.jpg)

[assumptions!]
I think RB4 will stay in LFS and if there will be rally(cross) version(s) the RB4 would be an obvious choise. But RB4 GTR... well, why not but I guess there won't be both rally version and the GTR version, it's one or the other or none... I'd think the rally version is more likely :D And rallycross is much less popular atm. Though the reasons are quite obvious...
[/assumptions!]

EDIT: Damn, four people managed to post while I was writing this, lol :)

[GotiKGotcha]

I don't really see the point of an RB4 GTR. We already have the FXO GTR which is all wheel drive.
Sure you're right :)
But I think the RBR could be the middle way between the FZR (which is the fastest (and the worst for tires)) and the FXR (which is the slowest (and the best the tires)) :)
You can say that the XRR is a middle way but this car has a big problem: it remains blocked in sand ^^
When GTR races are organised we usally can see only one or two different car (most of time: FZR and XRR) ;)

[the_angry_angel]

I'm with Forbin here - an RB4 GTR wouldn't actually add anything to the game. However, an RB4 WRC, with greater suspension travel, and set up as close to a real WRC as possible (restricted turbochargred engine) would be brilliant.

Add WRC style tyres for it (and it alone unless we get other WRC variants), including WRC style slicks for road courses (and road rally courses on day :D), and you'd have a winner.
"Winnar!"

[Hyperactive]

Just a small thought: we don't have any mid engine GTRs in LFS ...FZR is rear engine car? So if there should be added any new cars to that class it should be NA (natural aspirated because the XRR and FXR are turbo) mid engine RWD (or AWD) car. Preferably RWD :)

Or?

[felplacerad]

nice renders!

[Vendetta]

Really awesome render. That car looks awesome! :)

[Vain]

Nah, RBR is a great game, but the RB4 GTR is just a second FXR, so no.
I like AWD-cars, but I don't like the RB4. It's heavy, it's slow and it won't corner until you beat it to it with a wall or something alike.
Strip 100 kg from the RB4 and it's a car (and most propably even a fun one). Or even better, strip 200kg off it and reduce the horsepowers so it becomes a XFG and XRG-competitor.

Vain

[bbman]

Ra GTR (by Quicksilver) but with roof!http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/8518/ragtr9cl.th.jpg (http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ragtr9cl.jpg)
Hey, this is a sexy car... :)

[J_Matrix]

I'd like to see too another GTR, but until now LFS has always allowed us to drive a maximum of 3 cars per "class", and everybody knows that's not easy to balance them. It's even hard to balance 2 cars in the same class, think about 4 :D
I'd appreciate to see a more powerful rally version of the RB4, maybe with slick tyres too, so that we may use it on rallyX as well as on any track..

[PLAYLIFE]

I'd be happy with another option for the GTR cars... I don't much like any of them. So far there's the "tires... mmm... tasty", the "excuse me, you pushed the gas pedal. Does this mean u want me to put power down tomorrow or the day after tomorrow?" and the "saayy... isn't that where I came from?".

[Blowtus]

3 gtr cars is plenty imho, compared to the other classes. Rather than try to slot in an rb4 gtr and suggest it should be more competitive, I'd just make the fxo gtr reasonable. Some form of rally oriented rb4 sounds good, but I'm not sure how much benefit you could give it aside from a better engine and slicks?

[ajp71]

I'd be all for another GTR, adding varied grids is important. As for what I'd like to see how about setting it up on older tires with more power than grip (like touring cars of the late eighties).

[FPVaaron]

What I'd really love to see is an RB4 special rally version with about 500hp AWD nice tall springs and a good centre of gravity.

[bLaCk VaMpIrE]

what i really liked to see is a new class with the XFR4 (the XFR with 4 wd) and the RBR. both should be around 320 hp and should get acces to slicks and dirt tyres. but maybe that comes with the rallypack^^

[Theafro]

the RB4 IS a rallycar waiting to happen, it's just about the best thing to attack the rallx track with ATM and it would only need a few tweaks to bring it up to a proper rally standard. nice renders tho' :thumb: but if it's gonna be a GTR it needs to be a little more aggressive :D

[-DrftMstr-]

the important thing is that the devs keep the RB4(and plz don't lock the torque split to 50F/50R), i only wish that they increase the power to weight-ratio to be able to compete with a XRT. That fat RB4 also need a body update:razz: but i'm really glad the devs made the RB4 . Talking of RBR, yes it would be very fun to have one but it's going to be alone in its class. The GTR cars should be differenciated in 2 classes like in Super GT GT300 and GT500. In GT500, we have the FZR, FXR and XRR. In GT300, maybe a RBR a N/A XRR and a top-covered RA GTR? Then LFS would really be the perfect racing sim:thumb:

[deggis]

the important thing is that the devs keep the RB4(and plz don't lock the torque split to 50F/50R), i only wish that they increase the power to weight-ratio to be able to compete with a XRT. That fat RB4 also need a body update:razz: but i'm really glad the devs made the RB4 . Talking of RBR, yes it would be very fun to have one but it's going to be alone in its class. The GTR cars should be differenciated in 2 classes like in Super GT GT300 and GT500. In GT500, we have the FZR, FXR and XRR. In GT300, maybe a RBR a N/A XRR and a top-covered RA GTR? Then LFS would really be the perfect racing sim:thumb:
Mixed GTR class racing would be very nice. It would also need a new kind of results board which would organize racers by the class and not by the overall positions. Otherwise it would be pointless to race with a slower class in a public server. I think mixed wouldn't be a such a problem in public races, we already have noobs that are so much slower so a ~5 sec lap time difference between the classes is not too much. :)

[Hyperactive]

Well the GTRs are currently the most powerful class after the F08 and have very many setup options. And it is also very popular class.

If we get some kind of slower GT300 class it would be best to limit the setup options as much as possible. No aero tweaking, solid 5-peed gearbox, 350-400hp engines and slicks. Not R2 slicks, more like R4 with less grip and longer lasting like the roadies... Only tire pressures, some tire angles and some other small setup options to fiddle with. As a result the class would be lot easier to balance and with with less power they could provide closer racing than the current GTRs...?

[Horci]

Really nice render ! :) I like to see it the game, but an XRR, FXR, FZR competitor would be pointless. RBR is same like FXR (of course, seems much better for me :) ) 4WD, same power etc ... Someone explained it before.

The best would be i think to make a "little" GTR from it. 4WD competitor for XFR and UFR. Almost the same, or more HP, but a little bit higher weight thanks for the 4WD drive train.
As a "little" GTR RB4 don't need too big tires, like the "big" GTRs.
There is a relative small wheel in the render, and I rhink it is really nice ! :)


So, the reslult, RBR have to be a "little" GTR :)

[GotiKGotcha]

Hi,

You have a great Idea Horci.
I had not thought about this possibility :)

It's could be perfect but.. The RB4 is a Saloon car unlike the XFR and the UFR so a XFR vs UFR vs RBR (light GTRs) race could look like strange ?!:shrug::)

Well, you all prefer a RB4 Rallycross or something else but not a real GTR, I can understand ^^


In the French community we are doing a TBO League (races with FXO, XRT and RB4).
in order to allow the RB4 to take part with little chances to win, we oblige the FXO to put a passenger (+ 1 second)

So, if you think a GTR version is useless, what do you think about a simple addition of Horsepower to make the RB4 more competitive ?

RB4 is really slower than FXO and XRT so it's quite impossible to do a "Turbos league" :shrug:

[Shotglass]

come on ... just look at the abbreviation ... rbr ... its gotta be a rally car

[Psycho Evangelion]

the fxr sorta stole my heart, but I would give a lot to have a super lightweight RBR. Not sorta super powerful like the others, but something light and tossable, with enough agility to keep up with the others.

[ajp71]

If rallying is going to continue into S3 (when hopefully chassis strength will be taken into account) we'll really seriously need a rally spec RB4 strengthened from shell up with tougher suspension and a fairly stock engine. If you took a stock Toyota Celica (or Impreza, Cossie, Evo) on a gravel rally stage it'd fall apart in the first five minutes. £100000 a season to rally a Ford Ka sounds like a lot but that's what it will set you back to compete in the British Championship (without considering accident damage).

The UF1 would be great for low level Rallycross/autograss because by the time you've added a roll cage to a Mini on a standard A series it'll be slow enough not to rip itself apart.

IMO LFS should stick to mainly tarmac circuit racing, with the odd diversion to hillclimbing, and rallycross like it is now, I don't think Eric will be able to produce many long rally stages in the time he'll have. As for the cars I think stripped down Minis in the lower class (and please just get rid of the soft top IRL it'd just fold into a big ball). For the higher class how about Group B cars as well as some spaceframe missiles (seem to remember a claim they could out accelerate a F1 car to 100mph on dirt intresting if anyone could back this up?).

[-DrftMstr-]

GotiKGotcha, very nice that the french community contributes to the LFS scene (and helping the RB4 being competitive). We all know that the RB4 has been initially created but that car is just amazing for drifting! impressive amount of lateral Gs. I'm speaking for the whole LFS drift scene, we would really like to see an improvement of the RB4 for later version of S2 or S3, and I think that this RB4 should be left as a road car not a rally car.

and about that GT300 and GT500 thing, i don't think i clearly explained it...

I meant more like creating to GTR classes competing in two seperates classes but in a same event

[gishuk]

i think a proper WRC spec RB4 would be better, add a whole new class of car rather than adding a very similar one to the GTs

that Raceabout GTR looks AWESOME tho id love that

[NaBUru38]

In S2 the most powerful rallycross cars have about 240 cv. It's by far too few horses.

But only one car (the RB4 Rally) is also too limited. The XF and XR should also have a rally version, i.e. a FWD, a 4WD and a RWD.

[ajp71]

In S2 the most powerful rallycross cars have about 240 cv. It's by far too few horses.

But only one car (the RB4 Rally) is also too limited. The XF and XR should also have a rally version, i.e. a FWD, a 4WD and a RWD.

Seeing as there are a large number of rallycross Minis wouldn't it be more inteligent to have a Rallycross UF rather than XF?

[-DrftMstr-]

why are people associating RB4 with rally racing? (not pissed btw) a Mitsubishi Esclipe is a 4wd but not necessairly a rally car...


(me: why am i so stressed?
myself: i have a bad feeeling that the DEVS is going to get rid of the RB4)

[Forbin]

And why, after spending the time to model it and balance it (somewhat) with the other turbos, would they do that? This isn't the LX8. :)

[Hyperactive]

(me: why am i so stressed?
myself: i have a bad feeeling that the DEVS is going to get rid of the RB4)

I don't think they would throw away the only awd rallycross car ;) Not that the rb4 being awd justifies its existence, it just is best of TBO class for rallying :) imho, of course

[Messiah]

Too bad, the picture is gone from post #0 :shrug:

[tailing]

Really nice render ! :) I like to see it the game, but an XRR, FXR, FZR competitor would be pointless. RBR is same like FXR (of course, seems much better for me :) ) 4WD, same power etc ... Someone explained it before.

The best would be i think to make a "little" GTR from it. 4WD competitor for XFR and UFR. Almost the same, or more HP, but a little bit higher weight thanks for the 4WD drive train.
As a "little" GTR RB4 don't need too big tires, like the "big" GTRs.
There is a relative small wheel in the render, and I rhink it is really nice ! :)


So, the reslult, RBR have to be a "little" GTR :)

Yeah I think if not your idea then maybe a RWD to compete with the XFR & UFR. I've been driving the XFR a fair bit lately and reckon something similar but RWD would be great, NA, fairly light and with slicks.

[NaBUru38]

If you don't want RB4 or XF Racecross versions, what car will be? The Raceabout? The FX0?

Or are you suggesting to forget mud, gravel and ice for LFS?

[deggis]

Or are you suggesting to forget mud, gravel and ice for LFS?
I would suggest to forget the rallycross things. It's a nice addition but there's no point making it better until the general road racing is perfect. Let's leave rallying for RBR. :)

[NaBUru38]

I would suggest to forget the rallycross things. It's a nice addition but there's no point making it better until the general road racing is perfect. Let's leave rallying for RBR. :)

After the LFS track editor is released (which problably will not happen in RBR, even by crackers), the modding community will be pleased by the available surfaces. The range of possible races would grow a lot.

My best idea is to add:

- gravel tyres and longer suspension travel (optional) for the UF GTR and XF GTR (300 hp/ton)
- an FX0 GTS (350 hp, 1000 kg, FWD, fast but not too hard to drive)
- an RB4 GTS (450 hp, 1300 kg, 4WD, also good for drifting)
- an XR GTS (400 hp, 1150 kg, RWD, hard to master)
(all of them with 350hp/ton and tarmac or gravel setups)

What do you think?


(edit: black vampire said it first, i hadn't seen it. Still, I added some extra details)

[-DrftMstr-]

YES! god idea finnaly some more exciting cars to drive :) (D1 style coming?)

[Forbin]

.....(D1 style coming?)
:really:

[Hyperactive]

...
My best idea is to add:

- gravel tyres and longer suspension travel (optional) for the UF GTR and XF GTR (300 hp/ton)
- an FX0 GTS (350 hp, 1000 kg, FWD, fast but not too hard to drive)
- an RB4 GTS (450 hp, 1300 kg, 4WD, also good for drifting)
- an XR GTS (400 hp, 1150 kg, RWD, hard to master)
(all of them with 350hp/ton and tarmac or gravel setups)


That 450hp rb gts would be the fastest rallycross car simply because it has most power and and it's awd and thus the easiest to drive. FXO being the slowest because least power and fwd, though somewhat easy to drive. XR gt hardest to drive because lots of power and little grip. And putting fwd and rwd cars in one class is quite hard to make equal.

And having three cars just for rallycross is too much because rallycross isn't that popular. And there aren't enough tracks for it either.

Maybe:
- XR gt rally/track ver. 380hp, rwd, 1000kg with two different bodykits available. One for rallying with more ground clearence and the other for track racing with more wings in various places and maybe more fragile.

- RB4 rally/track ver. 410hp and awd, 1100kg, with two bodykits also.

- XF rally/track ver. 350 hp awd, 900kg, with two bodykits also.

Tires available only grooved slicks, medium compound road racing tyres and rough off road rallying tires.

The tire selection would allow the cars to be used in rallying, rallycrossing and road racing. The bodykits would make the cars look more purposeful built, because rally cars and road racing cars look different IRL. These cars would create two new classes, one for rally and one for track. In a way these cars would be the smaller GTR class...just a thought...

Also with little setting to fiddle with create a class where you can win with every car in rally and track race.

[NaBUru38]

You are making them lighter... they would get too close to the GTR class (if the UF / XF GTR are 300hp/ton and the three other GTRs are 500hp/ton, the middle is not 400hp/ton, I would sy it's 350).

The FWD+4WD+RWD variety is on purpose. The FX0 GTS would be better for n00bs but also, as it is lighter and the 4WD would not mean much difference, for slow tarmac circuits (which I also recommend for the UF/XFs, MRT5, LXs and drifting :-), while the XR GTS (if it had a little better power to weight ratio) would be the one for aliens, and the RB4 for normal racers.

[Hyperactive]

You are making them lighter... they would get too close to the GTR class (if the UF / XF GTR are 300hp/ton and the three other GTRs are 500hp/ton, the middle is not 400hp/ton, I would sy it's 350).

The FWD+4WD+RWD variety is on purpose. The FX0 GTS would be better for n00bs but also, as it is lighter and the 4WD would not mean much difference, for slow tarmac circuits (which I also recommend for the UF/XFs, MRT5, LXs and drifting :-), while the XR GTS (if it had a little better power to weight ratio) would be the one for aliens, and the RB4 for normal racers.

I was tinking that the main difference would be the tires, not the horse powers ;) I just have some doubts about fwd, awd and rwd cars in one class. The fwd will be slow accelerating out of a corner in rallying, the rwd pretty hard to drive on rough surfaces, so the awd would rule being the fastest and easiest to drive. Like the FXO in the TBO class atm.

And about that 350hp: the FZ5 has 360hp so it would get too close to it :) Though it would be ok too add some weight to them, let's say this:

- XR gt rally/track ver. 380hp, rwd, 1150kg: 330hp/tonne
- RB4 rally/track ver. 410hp and awd, 1300kg: 315hp/tonne
- XF rally/track ver. 300 hp awd, 900kg: 333hp/tonne

How about this then. More weight on the XR and RB4 and less power on the XF? The power to mass ratio isn't really all, as the power train in awd cars eats some power too. And rwd is harder to drive, though on paved roads the XR may be too fast with these values... And while XF has 110 hp less than the XR it should be competitive because it's quite light and awd. The RB4 may beat the XF if there are longer straights but in corners it will lose clearly to the XF because it has 400kg more weight.

To balance the XR against the other two it could have a NA engine so that it has less power/torque on low revs thus little making it slower on accelerating, while the Rb4 could have lots of torque on low revs making it little faster. The XF could be the HC car with hi tuned engine which wouldn't slow it down because the car weighs so little against the other two. All cars with 5 speed gearboxes. And exactly the same size tires for all of these.

No drifting for these cars ;)

After some testing and calculations we now have a new class for the devs to create. :D

EDIT: Notice, that I'm talking about XF and you are talking about FXO

[NaBUru38]

I had written a 666-word essay and when I clicked on "post reply" the forum told me that I had logged out, although I had
clicked on "remamber". Most forums remember you even after a week, but this one didn't last the two hour i (think) took me to
finish the reply. I know, LFS admins can't do anything. Too bad for me :(


So here it goes again:


1- We need more track variety. Yes, a super-Nordschleife, a mini-Nordschleife, mountains, snow, rainforest, volcano, gold
mine... mmm, too arcadey. What we also need is:
- extraslow but tarmac tracks (even like the Tour de Corse but wider), which could also be combined with gravel for a true
rallycross track (instead of a "gravel track with a straight and two corners on tarmac"). They can be narrow or wide, even
better the both.
- fast gravel tracks - something close to a Ouninpohjla loop with huge+realistic jumps and 160km/h avg.
- With these tracks, the gravel-proof UFR / XFR and the new GTS class, LFS would have many more avalilable choices than
regular autodromes.


2- If we call the extreme UF and XF "HOT" (only because "GTi" is already reserved for the stock XF), they are the "entry
level race cars". The GTS class is next and in the end of the perfomance spectrum the GTR category.
- The UFH would be the fastest FWD car on extra-slow tracks, the XFH on regular tracks and the FX0 on the fastest ones. The
difference between the last two should be clear enough.


3- If three similar drivers take the three GTSs on slow, fast, gravel and tarmac circuits, the final scores should be very
close to each other. Of course, one car will be slightly faster than the others on certain conditions (and viceversa).
- The FX0 GTS should have a better ptw ratio, I agree with you. That would compensate the traction loss due to the FWD.
- If the XR GTS and RB4 GTS have very similar ptw ratios, the RWD car will be faster on tarmac and the 4WD car on gravel. But
with the RWD and worse turbo kick+lag... OK, let's give a bit more power to the XR.
- The stock FZ50 is too heavy to be compared to the GTSs. Around 350hp/ton seems OK, I think.

-Example:
FX0 GTS - 375hp`/ 1000kg = 375hp/ton
RB4 GTS - 450hp / 1300kg = 345hp/ton
XR GTS - 400hp / 1150kg = 350hp/ton


4- I was also thinking about changing the three 2.0 turbo engines scheme. The options are different displacements,
turbo/aspirated and in-line 4 / flat 4 / V6.
- The GTR and GTS versions should have the same displacement and layout, but there could be an asp/turbo switch. All of them
with 490hp, but a high-rpm power peak for the 2.0T, a flat torque line for the 3.6 and a mixure of both for the 2.8.

-Example:
FX0 GTS - 2.8 V6 aspirated
RB4 GTS - 2.4 flat 4 turbo
XR GTS - 2.0 in-line 4 turbo
FX0 GTR - 2.8 V6 turbo
XR GTR - 2.0 in-line 4 turbo
FZ50 GTR - 3.6 flat 6 aspirated


Perhaps it's too many changes... well, at least remember my...
Suggestion: GTS class and more slow circuits


(I hope I don't have to edit this book again)

[Hyperactive]

I think I'm going a bit too far with this but I actually tried those GTS cars using mecanik and slickmod and I think they are pretty close in terms of lap times, though things like tire wear and fuel consumption are yet to be balanced.

But the cars I tried were:
RWD XT "gts" with 3.8litre in-line 4, 380hp and 563N, weighing 1200kg
Rb4 with 3.0litre turbo in-line 4, 410hp and 568Nm, 1330kg
XF "gts" 2.2litre NA in-line 4, 300hp and 285Nm, 860kg

I tested the mecanik presets at Aston Club and in Fern rallyX using R2 slicks for all of them, with the aero set so that the Rb4 doesn't suffer to much. The values are little different than in my previous post. Rb4's engine has lots of torque at lower revs and the Xf is hard tuned NA with all the power on the higheer revs. The turboboost in Xr is little too sudden atm...

The turbo lag made the XR hardest to accelerate out of the corners but the surprise was that the lap times were pretty even. Rb4 was hardest to make turn into corners but the power it has makes it gain it back in the straights. XF handles the best though the main weakness for it is that it likes to flip at times ;)

At rallycrossing the Rb4 rules. This is because I couldn't make any good rallycross setups for the other two. Xr is quite hard to drive agains the other two and the Xf isn't a joy either atm. :)

The base cars I used were the Rb4, XF gtr and XR gtr with similar tires and aero.

[NaBUru38]

Can you give me the performance files??? I would love to try your work!!!
Which tool did you use? because I want to experiment too...


- The UFH would be the fastest FWD car on extra-slow tracks, the XFH on regular tracks and the FX0 on the fastest ones. The difference between the last two should be clear enough.
Only a 180hp UF GTR and a 300hp XF GTS... the gap is too wide. I would put three FWD racecars, UFH (180hp), XFH (240hp) and FXS (>350hp), depending on the track average speed.


FX0 GTS - 2.8 V6 aspirated
RB4 GTS - 2.4 flat 4 turbo
XR GTS - 2.0 in-line 4 turbo.
- The XR looks like a Porsche (the 944). My heart (what?) wants this car to be the hardest one to drive (turbo lag and rwd). Only aliens should choose it... and be rewarded with the fastest times, specially on fast courses.
- The rally cars have an antilag system. If Scawen could, I would choose a twin-turbo for the RBS - powerful but progressive.
- The FX0... as it should be the easiest to drive, it should have the biggest engine and no turbo.


BTW, two opinions is not enough. We can make a poll, start a new thread ("GTS - A new race car class")... What do we do?

[mrbogeyman]

imo, we have 2 sets of the same car in different moulds already and i wouldnt want to see anymore of the same model.

do you really want 3 versions of effectively the same cars?

fair enough, a car that matches these specifications might be introduced, but hopefully it would be a brand new model.

[Hyperactive]

imo, we have 2 sets of the same car in different moulds already and i wouldnt want to see anymore of the same model.

do you really want 3 versions of effectively the same cars?

fair enough, a car that matches these specifications might be introduced, but hopefully it would be a brand new model.

Agreed. New models would be better because cars like Xr has already 3 different models, the LXs have 2, XF has 2, FXO has 2 in a way and Fz5 has 2. By the looks the RB4 looks more like an awd track race car (maybe more like a supra than celica) than a rallycross nominee.

Can you give me the performance files??? I would love to try your work!!!
Which tool did you use? because I want to experiment too...

They are nothing but crap wip files. :)

I used mecanik (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3209) and slickmod (http://www.kegetys.net/lfs/)

Because the cars I used for the presets are very different from each others it's quite hard to make them equal atm. The XR gts (XT GTR) has massive turbolag and boost so it's pretty much undrivable at rallycross and hard at track too. Mostly because it is RWD and has small steering radius. The XF gts (XF GTR) is a killer on track, but way too understeery on rallycross. Still it is the fastest atm. I haven't even made equal settings for the cars so it's hard to comment how big/small the differences are. The Rb4 certainly is at best at rallycrossing atm. I made the car to have lots of torque at low revs so you don't need to shift all the time ;).

But it maybe better to use more equal cars as the GTRs have better tires and some aero you can't get rid of. Maybe the TBO class with the XFO replaced by the XF could give better results. Tried the cars on drag strip too, the XF was the fastest (11.40) and RB4 (11.60) and the XR (12.40). Needs more work to be any good :)

One thing I'd like to do is to make the cars have equal sized tires...

[danwhite50]

for the rb4 a idea is they done different variations like the evo fq400 etc so with the rb4 maybe have a twin turbo or a uprated turbo to give it 100bhp extra:shrug:

[Lord_Verminaard]

Ok, my main problem with the RB4 is that it's a big, heavy, underpowered pig. Even a lighter, higher powered version would almost be too big (ie. wheelbase too long) for an effective rally car. I've put rallyx tires on the UFR and it's near perfect for rally, much like the MG super1600 in RBR. If anything, an AWD, 300 hp XFG would make a dandy rally car. But, all of this is moot until we get some proper rally tracks, as it stands right now on all avaliable rally tracks, the cars performance on the tarmac section is more important than the dirt stuff anyway, which is why the RB4 isnt the fastest rallyx car out there right now. :P Keep the RB4, as it does handle well and has a high amount of grip. It's strong points would be auto-cross or a proper rally-cross type event, where traction out of tight turns is more important than speed.

Brendan

[DodgeRacer]

I think the piggish RB4 is fine just the way it is, its not like there arent piggish cars in reality, not all cars are perfect examples of automotive engineering you have to remember...

[Transporter]

give rb4 more hp..yum :D

[Vendetta]

i just want a real fkin rally car :D

[-DrftMstr-]

But when it comes to drifting, the RB4 is a fairly nice car... Yes, it can be a tad bit underpowered from the power/weight ratio, but it's a price to pay for the AWD system. The RB4 can be very versatile too. grip drift, rally, drag( maybe?) I strongly recommend the devs keep this car, it's not a champion but a good overall performer.

[BuddY ChRisT]

the important thing is that the devs keep the RB4(and plz don't lock the torque split to 50F/50R), i only wish that they increase the power to weight-ratio to be able to compete with a XRT. That fat RB4 also need a body update:razz: but i'm really glad the devs made the RB4 . Talking of RBR, yes it would be very fun to have one but it's going to be alone in its class. The GTR cars should be differenciated in 2 classes like in Super GT GT300 and GT500. In GT500, we have the FZR, FXR and XRR. In GT300, maybe a RBR a N/A XRR and a top-covered RA GTR? Then LFS would really be the perfect racing sim:thumb:

:thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:
thet thing is the RA is a real car, i dont know if the creator of this car would agree to a GTR verison of their car. also i dont see why they wouldnt. it could be like the toyota MR that compete in the GT 300. this would be great the RA is a very fun car, but with a little bit more downforce and horsepower and slicks itd be a blast imo.

[wheel4hummer]

1. Maybe there should be GTS versions of the cars. For example, the FXO would have FWD. And, they would be a step between GTR and standard.

2. Why don't they give us the RaceAbout2005?

[duke_toaster]

Instead of another road event, what about FIA S2000 type touring cars?

And we want the new RaceAbout :-)

[anbiddulph]

What I'd really love to see is an RB4 special rally version with about 500hp AWD nice tall springs and a good centre of gravity.
group b

[Fetzo]

-100kg / 550 hp and we have decent division 1 rallycross car.

[severin_schoepke]

I'm for a RB4 WRC... Together with some long point-to-point special stages through the Blackwood forrest this would make a nice Rallye Pack :D

[joen]

If i'm correct the LFS engine is not capable of point to point races. Would be cool though :)

[AndroidXP]

Uhm, of course it is, drag strip anyone? Or single stage autocross configurations?

Not possible are "open city" environments, because there the "what can you see" calculation would go bonkers, but a single stage is more or less a really stretched out circuit with only one "lap".

[joen]

Hmm, you're right. I stand corrected :)

[Mikkel Petersen]

Uhm, of course it is, drag strip anyone? Or single stage autocross configurations?

Not possible are "open city" environments, because there the "what can you see" calculation would go bonkers, but a single stage is more or less a really stretched out circuit with only one "lap".
I'm not excactly sure what you mean?

[AndroidXP]

With "open city" I mean an GTA-like environment, a freely accessible city (which was often requested earlier). Right now LFS always has visibility checks running, so only the polygons you can actually see are rendered. This alrgorithm relies on having a defined circuit or route, which wouldn't be the case in such an open city, therefore the whole city would be rendered all the time, killing your fps for good. Alteast I understood it like this the last time Scawen explained it.

[MAGGOT]

Yep, you've got it right. I assume this is also part of reason your car is reset when you leave the designated area (Ie. Trying to go down the Autox course when you are on the GP course at Blackwood)

[NaBUru38]

There shouldn't be a mixture of tens of different unequal cars. Categories are a need.

For the GTS, a 300hp/tonne front wheel drive is ridiculous. The Astra OPC (or VXR, if you like) has 240hp, +-1300kg and is lacks traction. An AWD and a RWD are enough. As the AWD would be the indicated car for rally, it should be turbocharged, like a 2.0 extracharged. The RWD would be aspirated, for example a S2000 (2.0l in-line 4), or a 2.0 V6. And one should be a hactchback (I'd say the turbo), and the other a sedan/saloon.

About coupés... they should be either heavier (FZ50) or more powerful (GTRs). And we need even heavier cars, a grand tourer (599 GTB, Vanquish...) and a full-size sedan (perfect for V8 Supercars-like racing).

[lalathegreat]

Why are u guys so keen on having the cars completly balanced

[zeugnimod]

Not completely balanced, but more even. Atm, FXO is by far the fastest on tarmac tracks and the other cars are rarely used and almost never seen in the top positions of a TBO class race.

Maybe, you'll think the same, if you get a licence and see it yourself. :)

[lalathegreat]

Why must they be even. I think Each car should have its own specific aspect as which it excels at. Very even cars tend to make races very boring.

If it were up to me i would have a RB GTr and a rally one. i mean how long can it take make both versions.:shrug:

Equal cars isnt gonna be the way u get Tight close racing everyone is looking for.

[Sternendaal]

Why must they be even. I think Each car should have its own specific aspect as which it excels at. Very even cars tend to make races very boring.

If it were up to me i would have a RB GTr and a rally one. i mean how long can it take make both versions.:shrug:

Equal cars isnt gonna be the way u get Tight close racing everyone is looking for.

A GTR car and a Rally car is exactly the same :tilt:

[Primoz]

GTR and rally cars are FAR from being the same.

[JFiske]

They have GTR versions of just about everything else...I say why not, but if I had to choose between that OR a rally version...Rally all the way!:thumb:

[shim]

come on ... just look at the abbreviation ... rbr ... its gotta be a rally car

agreed, RBR for rally, RBG for the GTR..

[Sp3cTr3]

300hp RB4 Rally in WRC trim would be awesome. I expect something like that with the rally pack

[jarre]

Ra GTR (by Quicksilver) but with roof!http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/8518/ragtr9cl.th.jpg (http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ragtr9cl.jpg)

This one is a must-have! It looks good as it is..
But imagine it like on the picture:D And hopefully a fixed rear end, cause I dont like the one that it has now..

But I cant wait for it in S3... I want it in the next patch!:D

[AndroidXP]

Fixed link (http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/8518/ragtr9cl.jpg) ;)

[sgt.flippy]

Ra GTR (by Quicksilver) but with roof!http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/8518/ragtr9cl.th.jpg (http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ragtr9cl.jpg)

This one is a must-have! It looks good as it is..
But imagine it like on the picture:D And hopefully a fixed rear end, cause I dont like the one that it has now..

But I cant wait for it in S3... I want it in the next patch!:D

It's a real car, you can't just change the rear:D That would be a nice car though. I'd like to have a rally car, not for daily use, but I'd use it once in a while. Just like every other car, I hop in a different one when I feel like it. At the moment I'm in the TBO cars:tilt:

[KeMoT]

RB4 is my beloved car in non-GTR class in LFS.
I am really looking forward to know out about it's future in LFS.

[jarre]

Fixed link (http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/8518/ragtr9cl.jpg) ;)

Hehe thanks man:D

[squidhead]

Actually I think that a step between UFR and FXR would be a Raceabout GTR,
and I'd really love to get a 500 BHP rallycross car based on RB4 :nod:

[HeerBommel]

A RB4 GTR (RBR)

A RB4 GTR (RBR)
http://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotchap.jpg
http://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha2p.jpghttp://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha3p.jpghttp://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha4p.jpghttp://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha5p.jpg
http://gotchaworldgotik.free.fr/LFS/Skins/GOTCHA/S2/Rendu/3D_RBR_2F2F_Gotcha6p.jpg
[Click to enlarge]


It would be great to have this car in LFS S3.
Then you can create a sort of DTM-class, (4 wheel-drive GTR's)

[james12s]

like it

[Dajmin]

The WRC version of the RB4 wouldn't need to have any balancing because it would be unique. If we could also have a WRC XFG, then you'd need balancing.

So leave the current RB4 alone - it's already great to drive (both drifters and racers agree on this - mark it in your diary) and it's well balanced with the other TBOs. But add a RB4 WRC (RBW? RBC?).

I'm leaving initial space for the potential RB4 GTR, which I'm not against but as I said in another thread it would be better in a middle GTR class with the LX8 :)

[henrico-20-]

The GTR class is one of the most popular and filled classes online! So why not making an Racabout GTR ( shown erlier in this topic ) And a RB4 GTR?

But what LFS realy need is a pack of LMP cars :)

[Dajmin]

The big GTRs are popular because people like driving fast :)

I'd be all about a GT2 class with RB4 GTR, LX8 GTR (I won't let it lie!) and RAC GTR all in there. Slower than the current big ones, but faster than the FWD GTRs. Those 3 cars even have unique characteristics to work with - 4WD on the RB4, no downforce on the LX and no rear ARBs on the RAC (although that scares me on a GTR).

But that's a discussion that's been done to death already. This is the RB4's feature thread :) We have 3 versions of the XR already, why not 3 RB4s as well? Current GT, WRC and GTR. Lovely.

[Moonclaw]

+1 for turbocharged 3 litre inline 6 RB GTR.

[Primoz]

What about an RB4 GTR to replace the FXR and take off the huge wing and stuff of it along with the turbo and put it into the FWD GTR category?

[mantvisrep]

i'd like to have RB4 WRC... for gtr we have FXOGTR...


FOR RALLY!!!CROSS!!!

[squidhead]

RALLY!!!CROSS!!!
it's spelled without the exclamation signs actually

[Dajmin]

We shouldn't be replacing any cars, only adding. These days 19 to choose from isn't that many so the more variation the better. I say that as if I'm actually involved in the decisions :p
But it's true. There's nothing actually wrong with the car selection now, and removing or seriously changing any of the existing ones would upset the people who use them.

And to be honest, until we have WRC tracks (or at least a larger selection of bigger RallyX tracks) anything that spec would be wasted.

[yoyoML]

And to be honest, until we have WRC tracks (or at least a larger selection of bigger RallyX tracks) anything that spec would be wasted.

Give me a rally stage and I'll turn every car into a rally car! So where's the rally pack???:rally_dri I really like the RB4. It just doesn't have many places to shine.

[GotiKGotcha]

I'd be all about a GT2 class with RB4 GTR, LX8 GTR (I won't let it lie!) and RAC GTR all in there. Slower than the current big ones, but faster than the FWD GTRs. Those 3 cars even have unique characteristics to work with - 4WD on the RB4, no downforce on the LX and no rear ARBs on the RAC (although that scares me on a GTR).

I Love your Idea !! :thumb:

It could be so great for Endurance Races ! :lovies:

:)

[Zachary Zoomy]

I really want an GTR version of the RB4. it would compete with the FXR, leaving the XRR and FZR to have all the power they ever wanted. FXR and RBR can be close rivals, perhaps a superrallyX tires option for both. that will even LFS to 20 cars, all cars have a rival. everything fits!

[HeerBommel]

I'd be all about a GT2 class with RB4 GTR, LX8 GTR (I won't let it lie!) and RAC GTR all in there. Slower than the current big ones, but faster than the FWD GTRs.
+1 for me

[The Very End]

+1 for me

+1 from me too.

[Primoz]

We wouldn't cut anything. Just the boxer would get changed with an inline 4. All else remains the same (more or less). And the FXO could be kept more factory like - FWD. True. Alfa did compete in DTM (and ITR) with an all wheel drive 155. Don't know if they made AWDs back then. But doing that would lower the number of basicly the same cars, like it's with the XRs.

About the LX8 GTR, sounds fun, sure, i went down that road, but when you think over, the LX is just way too small to compete with normal cars. Make a small kit car simmilar to a prototype (Radical anyone) and put the LX8 GTR that XCNuse made against it. That would IMO be fun. 2 small, fast, downforced cars competing against eachother.

[Chrisuu01]

+1 from me too.


I sadly have to say -1 i dont like the idea i think it would spoil lfs

[NSX_FReeDoM]

Just a small thought: we don't have any mid engine GTRs in LFS ...FZR is rear engine car? So if there should be added any new cars to that class it should be NA (natural aspirated because the XRR and FXR are turbo) mid engine RWD (or AWD) car. Preferably RWD :)

Or?
arent FZR front engine???:scratchch

yeh it would be great if there is a mid engine NA 500BHP car (something like the Honda NSX in JGTC GT500:nod:) to complete wif XRR, FXR and the FZR...

[GTR_Yuni]

arent FZR front engine???:scratchch
Since the vast majority of cars tend to have more weight where-ever the engine goes, the FZR is rear-engined, like nearly every Porsche out there.

[ajp71]

About the LX8 GTR, sounds fun, sure, i went down that road, but when you think over, the LX is just way too small to compete with normal cars.

I don't really see where you get that idea from, lots of the best battles are little (http://www.ianhardy.net/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=47538)and large, (http://www.mtwc.co.uk/galleries/racing_shots/images_mallory_montlhery2000/mallorygary.jpg)Caterhams vs. bigger more powerful sports cars is a classic one.

[Rappa Z]

Wow, that's the best looking RB4GTR I've ever seen. It really makes me want to drive it. :thumb:

[The Very End]

I sadly have to say -1 i dont like the idea i think it would spoil lfs

On what way? ;)
As far as I understood of this topic, it`s talking about adding a new car (dreaming of a new one), that only would look like the RB4, but it would have some more eyecandy, aswell as beeing a much faster and better car.

Problem is - what class should it been in?

[Hyperactive]

On what way? ;)
As far as I understood of this topic, it`s talking about adding a new car (dreaming of a new one), that only would look like the RB4, but it would have some more eyecandy, aswell as beeing a much faster and better car.

Problem is - what class should it been in?

The problem is that the RB4 gtr would be exact replica of FXR, only different looks and ... different wheels...?

LX8 should be no-aero. Unless you can show me a real race car alike caterham pictures. Not just some prototypes, some that actually exists and are sold and raced.

[The Very End]

I see your point, didn`t look on it that way.
Still more cars doesn`t hurt, even if there allready are cars in-game that looks similiar.
LFS need something new, and hopefully in a not too distant future.

[Chrisuu01]

I see your point, didn`t look on it that way.
Still more cars doesn`t hurt, even if there allready are cars in-game that looks similiar.
LFS need something new, and hopefully in a not too distant future.


Whel ive seen it lets se if i can find the Video its a donkevoort race car that raced the nurburgring
it had front and rear spoiler

But for the RB4 bad idea it woudlbe unfairr in the XRF anUFR class and it would be the same as the FXR in the GT1 class

So RBGTR i say failure

I think LX8 should be a intirly difrent class caus it could have unfair advantages over the GTR cars i think

But LX8 with wings and stuf is posible it excists il search teh footage of the winged donkevoort

[duke_toaster]

I say just add the RBR to the current GTR class, the LX8 can be in its own class, same with the LX4R and/or LX6R. RAR ... don't know.

[Hyperactive]

But LX8 with wings and stuf is posible it excists il search teh footage of the winged donkevoort
Teh wingde Donkervoort existts but iicr t was a proto and the earo d'idnt ork simply becuase the basic catermhm-styled body is so un-aeroydnamci. My guess si that if you put winsg on a brick it will generate more donwforce but wuold also craete moer mroe omre drag and amke it oto slwo on straithgs.

I cuold be wrnog thuohg :)

I say just add the RBR to the current GTR class, the LX8 can be in its own class, same with the LX4R and/or LX6R. RAR ... don't know.

The weight, length and width of the said cars would be so close that if you used the same sounds and cockpits you couldn't tell which one you are driving (RB4-gtr and FXR). LX4R and LX6R are imho a bit useless if they are just slicks versions simply because no one would drive the LX4 and LX6 anymore. The same with any "slicks on daily racer" car... The car(s) need to be different enough to survive as independant car or class, not to replace some other car with miniscule differences.

Not to say your opinions are useless or to say you're wrong, yo are just suggesting something that almost already exists or is nothing "new" :)

[Primoz]

ajp i'd be scared to pass anything the size of a Mini in that thing...