LFS development thread (not flaming or fighting thread)

[Mogar]

Well, I'm opening this thread to try to compile some relevant information about LFS development from Scawen's post that can explain the situation of LFS and why the devs are acting the way they are, that are hidden in the middle of big topics, and ask I for your help to do that (since I don't have the time or the patience needed to research on all Scawen's replies). And please let your own comments or other things to other threads.

The reason for that is that not everyone should every reply from every post, and I feel that there are some important information, that we are supposed to know when discuss about the LFS development, but not everyone know due to that.

I will start with some words from the official LFS website, just to clarify the goal of LFS for the newcomers.


Live for Speed is a small development team dedicated to making the best online racing simulator



LFS S2 is a serious racing simulator. No arcade modes, no steering aids - YOU have to do the driving.


And then Scawen's words


I'm closing this thread. Too many threads on the same subject. Anyone who wonders what's going on, thinks we are very slow, wants us to hurry up, or whatever, please continue to discuss on the existing thread :

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=4933

The devs are all alive and working on LFS, and we'll post when there's something interesting to say. As ever, we are working on the things we've said we're working on, and also some other experiments along the way, sometimes giving rise to new things we haven't mentioned before. That's the way LFS is developed, it's the reason LFS is here, and the way it will continue.

And just something about people saying "We have paid for a full version". Please understand, we don't sell versions, we sell licenses. You paid for a S2 license, and you have it! That means you can unlock the S2 content in any S2 release that is available. There is no specified release date for the full version and there never has been.

I'm sorry we can't just bring out releases and improvements at an extremely high speed, but that's just not how software development is. Also, we don't want to keep posting progress reports, about nothing. So little noteworthy things happen in one month... but unfortunately the forum just flares up every month and finally i have to come here and declare that we are still alive, etc...

Again, we are working on LFS and will report when there is anything interesting to say! Thanks! :)


and

Could some people please stop thinking that the only reason they don't get physics updates is because of hotlaps. SPRs and hotlaps being made invalid are only one reason. But i'm seeing the same thing mentioned all over the place, some myth that hotlaps are stopping people getting new physics updates.

If there is any change in physics, there is an ONLINE COMPATIBILITY issue. Old physics and new physics cannot join together. Some people will download the test patch, and some people will upgrade their hosts. So then the people with the new version, would be all alone in their sub-community of people who like to get incompatible test patches. So then they'll say "we like the new physics" and some other people will start to get the new patch. Meanwhile, the people who never heard about the new patch, will wonder where everyone's gone. Then we'll discover a bug in the new physics so hundreds of people will be annoyed that they got the test version and didn't wait for the final version. Then a new patch will come out with some more improvements. People will wonder whether they should get the new one or not.

Then what you can't imagine is the anger that starts to be stirred up. Posts all over the web on different forums and shout boxes "why are there so many stupid patches" and "what is wrong with these developers". For some people it's a big effort to download a patch, and it makes them angry and uneasy.

Compatible test patches are very easy, get them if you want to, no disruption to the community. So it makes sense to do as many compatible things as possible (which need to be done anyway - it's bad when people can't type in their own language) before starting on and releasing physics changes, changes to car models and tracks, and other online compatibility changes. Anyway, how could i code physics changes, at the same time as updating the language support? I can only do one thing at a time.

So, as we always say, and as we have learned from experience, incompatible patches are kept to the minimum, due to the community distruption they cause. Compatible test patches can be released freely and that's the time when many game updates are done. When i'm working on the incompatible things, you probably won't hear from me for a few months, as i'll just be focussed on those very difficult things, and there won't be anything to test until several things are done.

[Mogar]

A little word about the tyres.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SladiVadi
May I ask what's so bad about the tyres?


Originally Posted by Scawen:
Well they are close to behaving correctly at all times, but not quite as good as real world tyres in some conditions.

It's mainly about some things they do when they are near their limit of grip, and just over the limit, and how it's affected by applying and removing the power.

BTW, if anyone asks me for more detailed answers, i won't give any. Nothing's clear until i've coded up several testing mechanisims, tyre test rigs and so on when i get back on the case with the physics.

[Mogar]

one more


Thanks. It's simple enough, LFS exists because we chose a way of working, to take our time and make the program we want. The design decisions and direction are led by interest, our ideas and experiments and also influenced a lot by requests and ideas from the community.

The money that we can make, although an important consideration, is simply not the primary driving force. If it was, then we should do something completely different, something mainstream. There are a lot of easier ways to make money. We're doing this because we like what we do. We don't want to change our partnership, form a limited company, start hiring programmers, artists, receptionists and accountants. That's not what we're here for and it's not why LFS exists. We've specifically left that kind of job.

Making a racing sim takes a long time. It's taken so much time for so many years, that we have allowed the rest of our lives and houses to decay a bit around us. So, it's sometimes a bit hard to take, when we see the amount of attacks that we receive when we take a bit of time to sort things out. I just can't understand what's the rush! We're working on a sim, which gets updated every few months. Sometimes progress is faster than at other times. You get things in the end. Most people understand that, they are happy to have the sim in its current state. But a few people are so impatient, it's amazing, and they have to come up with all these ideas about how we should do things differently, change our lives, even give up our whole lives and anything we want to do, in order to grow LFS as fast as possible. But from our point of view that's just quite strange really.

I shouldn't really need to explain this again, but i can see that the impatience level is rising again. Just relax, there will be new physics at some point when i've had time to work on the aero and the tyres, involving plenty of experimentation and testing. There will be updates from Eric as well. How long it will take, i don't know. If LFS bores you for now, just do something else for a while. You'll get a news letter from us when there's a patch.

Thanks to those who do explain this to people. It's a strange effect, this impatience thing, it seems to be seen often in gaming communities, a few angry guys putting huge pressure on developers for release dates, immense anger when the dates slip or features are cut, then it's even worse when things are rushed out before they are really finished. Gamers need to understand that it just takes a long time to write computer games and simulations. And always longer, year after year, as the complexity increases.

[Mogar]

If you want access to all cars and tracks in S2, you have to buy a license, which will allow you to unlock S2 on your computer.

So, the license stands for the extra content. The LFS' engine (graphics, physics, sounds, multiplayer system and etc) is for "free". What you pay is for the extra cars and tracks, not the physics updates, because they are for everyone (including demo racers, that pays nothing to play the demo).

[Nick_ll]

As ever, we are working on the things we've said we're working on
But but but, Scawen, we know that you said you are working on the physics, but you can't say "we've said" because we, the community, have absolutely no idea, at all, of what Eric is working on. We can assume he's working on dashboards among other things, because there have been some complaints about them, but we can only assume. Nothing has been said by any of you devs, and as a matter of fact, Eric still has 0 posts in this forum......

[axus]

I'm sure Eric's work will be included in the next patch and I will much rather have it be a big surprise (5-6 months is quite a long time so there should be quite a lot) than have it revealed now. BTW, this should be stickied with all the important info from Scawen up there. :thumb:

[SchneeFee]

pls close :faint:

[Hyperactive]

I have one problem with this thread.

The point of this thread is to find all Scawen's posts and combine them into a single thread containing all the "info". The problem is that you take some random posts and try to "read them out" like there were some special info inside. Having a thread like this may also make Scawen to post less because all his words are looked through looking glass to find any info about LFS. When there is no info. They are just random posts :)

And as a such contains no new/old info...



If you want access to all cars and tracks in S2, you have to buy a license, which will allow you to unlock S2 on your computer.

So, the license stands for the extra content. The LFS' engine (graphics, physics, sounds, multiplayer system and etc) is for "free". What you pay is for the extra cars and tracks, not the physics updates, because they are for everyone (including demo racers, that pays nothing to play the demo).

Don't go too far with those assumptions :)

[AndroidXP]

I think this is a quite good compilation of Scawens posts that should finally shut up all those angry people and their "discussing". Not because it gives an exact answer to what we will have in the next patch, but just because the common sense ratio is so overwhelming that most people should fall into a vegetative state. Normally the concentration of Scawen's posts is far too thin to cause any silence, but lets all hope this does it :D


Interestingly enough started by Mogar :scratchch

IMO this warrants a sticky.

[Mogar]

The point of this thread is to find all Scawen's posts and combine them into a single thread containing all the "info". The problem is that you take some random posts and try to "read them out" like there were some special info inside. Having a thread like this may also make Scawen to post less because all his words are looked through looking glass to find any info about LFS. When there is no info. They are just random posts :)

And as a such contains no new/old info...



You are not wrong, but there are some hidden info in this forum, that ppl is supposed to know before complaining, but as they are hidden, most of who complain don't know ( me included ) and who try to flame who complains know.


This thread is intended to avoid specially newcomers from complaining about issues that devs already know or are working on, but they've stated between some old posts.


These are some "random" replies, but their meaning are still valid although out of the original post. But ppl should not try to find information underneith the words, just get the message that is clearly stated.


And let's avoid complaining or posting comments here, let's keep this the "clarifying post".

IMO this warrants a sticky

I hope so :)

[ORION]

I like this thread, maybe it's a good idea to remove all the unnessecary comment posts, then close any sticky it.

[Billeh]

my 2p worth

LFS team i just have to say i think your doing a great job and i am happy with the updates so far. I myself dont see any point in these kind of threads but what i would like to see is maybe a monthly update just to let us know whats on the cards. Like i said befor i am very happy with s2 so far and i know there r bugs but the game is still very playable and far better than the competion and we only on a beta :).

Once again i will say thanks to Scawen Roberts, Eric Bailey, Victor van Vlaardingen for all the work they have and still are puting in your doing a great job :) .

[Falkowski83]

Mogar, one thing that would be useful is to insert the dates of Scawen's posts. So people will actually know when he said "that", and we can draw a "timeline" with his posts.

[ ]'s

[ORION]

or just links to the actual posts ;)

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Don't go too far with those assumptions :)

He's right about that though, the engine is the same on all licenses, there's no assumption there.

Mogar this was a good idea of yours to post this info, at some point it'll have to be edited to retain only the useful posts like you originally intended, not all our opinions about it.... It is a good idea and I see your reasoning behind it and it's sound reasoning.

I think Mogar you deserve credit for maintaining composure and trying to advance the "discussion" in a positive fashion despite the heat that gets stirred up in here sometimes.

I would be lying if I said I didn't feel the same way you do sometimes, but we're all in the same waiting boat here and all we can do is lend our support for this revolutionary project. There really is nothing like this project even in it's current form. Once the obvious things are worked out, we'll be light-years ahead, with more things still on the way! Isn't that great? :D

[Mogar]

or just links to the actual posts ;)


I'll do that, but I'm a bit out of free time on weekdays due to my new job, and other activities so you will have to wait a bit.


Anyway, the replies that I've collected (and will collect more if I find) are all about the current LFS state. Most of the things will become outdated as long as a new patch is released, but when that happens, I think that it will take a long time to start the complaining threads in the forum.


And although outside the original topic, they have their meaning almost untouched unless ppl try to extract underneith info that do not exist.