Voting to restart/end race [Archive]

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Prodromoi

19th August 2005, 10:52

This could start a little bit of controversy and discussion...

There's a trend which I know I'm not the only person to have noticed, namely the "SHIFT+R after the first disaster" syndrome. I've been in, or spectating on, numerous races where the starting grid has looked liked a battlefield after a war, or the first corner has turned into a butcher's shop and suddenly everyone who was involved in it starts yelling for a restart. Enough SHIFT+Rs and soon enough the race restarts.

However...

This is incredibly frustrating and very unfair on the racers who've actually avoided spinning the cars on the starting grid, or have been just a little bit more careful in the "first corner dash" and have made it out the other side and are now involved in a sensible race.

Of course, it's true to say that sometimes the best racers get unavoidably caught up in the initial carnage through no fault of their own. But most of the time it seems that the racers calling for restarts are the ones that cause the crashes and spins. So why should their mistakes penalise the good racers that have got through?

My suggested solution:
Allow a vote against a race restart.

It could be done one of two ways. Either enable a new SHIFT+key combination, so that once someone has pressed SHIFT+R, the racers who want to continue the race can vote against it with SHIFT+(whatever).
Or deal with it similar to the "vote to ban" option. The vote is started by the first SHIFT+R. then other racers press 1 to vote for, or 2 to vote against the restart.

As a "gut feeling" I think a two-thirds majority to restart should be required. Obviously this figure is very debatable, and would be relevant no matter what method of restart procedure was used. (And simply increasing the majority needed may well do away with any need for a "vote against" procedure at all!)

Gentlemen, the motion is tabled. Let the argument commence!

Lible

19th August 2005, 10:56

I think that it has no point, because
1. In new patch server can limit restart time.
2. Live example, if there are 10 racers racing, then you wil need 6 votes to restart(or was it only a half :)) :nod:

And also let us have a IM ON hotlap vote, so it wil absolutely ban the restart vote.

the_angry_angel

19th August 2005, 11:43

Surely by default, not voting signifies you dont want to restart....seems a bit pointless tbh.

Prodromoi

19th August 2005, 12:17

Surely by default, not voting signifies you dont want to restart....seems a bit pointless tbh.

Not voting = abstention.

hammer it

19th August 2005, 16:32

Surely by default, not voting signifies you dont want to restart....seems a bit pointless tbh.

The ones that have crashed have time and attention to vote while the drivers that did not crash are involved in a race and may not even know that a vote is in progress. Especially at the start when your full attention is needed the most.

I agree, as it stands now, just do not vote and it is the same as having to vote no in this new scenario. I dont want to be bothered if I was able to survive the start!

dave_w11

19th August 2005, 17:02

Not voting has to count as a no vote, or when the first vote for restart has been cast it would be 1 yes against 0 no's, so it would pass instantly as a 100% yes vote.

Requiring a no vote, even if it maybe counts as double wouldn't work I think. It would be a race to press no quick before all the restarters vote yes (which is usually pretty quick :( ).

Maybe there just needs to be an option to up the %age of voters required for a pass.

I haven't been online yet since the new patch so I don't know if the new time limits added have made things better or not.

tailing

20th August 2005, 04:40

Hankstar

20th August 2005, 14:36

Just kick anyone who causes more than one crash :D

M.Mos

20th August 2005, 16:50

Personally I think restarts are a minor issue and people make too much of it. The limit we have now with the new patch is just an annoyance, the only time you need to restart is early in the race yet this prevents you doing so. hehe i thought i'm the only one thinking like this :) Usaly on the servers i play people could decide very well when to restart or not. And i had it maybe 10 times in my LFS life that a race has been restarted and i realy didn't wanted to restart.

Imo it can make thinks worse. I had it once that ppl wanted to restart but couldn't because of restart limit , and then one smart a** blocked the track with his car. The leader could avoid the crash , but i and the guy following me couldn't avoid it. So someone asked the a** why he did that. And he replied with "couse we/you did't restart". Of course there is no excuse for doing so, but restictions can cause people making stupid things.

willemA

20th August 2005, 21:14

@dave_w11, things have not improved, the restartretards keep pushing 'restart' till the limiter runs out.

I'm completely fed up with the T1 wreckers and the restart retards.
Personally i think restarts are a major pain the the butt.
Quite a percentage of drivers can't manage to not mess it up in T1 or even on the straight leading to and going from a T1...and i'm even more fed up with people immediatly pushing restart as soon as they go off.
As the initial poster says,and i agree, it's usually the people causing a major wreck fest who vote restart...
If you can't make it through turn 1 without wrecking or being wrecked it's tough luck...get your car back on the grey part and drive on.
No reset car, no teleport to pit, no restart, no nothing...
Ive been in busy races where i got punted of in T1, got back on the road and drove on to win, just because everyone keeps on teleporting to the pit as soon as they make a mistake or get punted of the track. People should drive.
Right now most public LFS races are mostly "wreck/pit/exit pit/car reset" fests.

Just give the servers the option of 'no restarts'...

BlackSpider

20th August 2005, 21:19

Huru-aito

20th August 2005, 21:38

A no restart option would be very good. Maybe have it so that restart would be allowed when the winner has finished or something. Although, if everyone would retire especially if shift+s and reset would be disabled, there'd be a problem :)

Anyways, a good idea that could calm down the T1 heros.

Seahorse

21st August 2005, 00:28

I'd love it.

Take this evening. 6 Bloody restarts and I was leading the race 6 times up to a lap and a half. I don't care if they can't pull away. Why should I have to go again and again and again...

mr_x

21st August 2005, 01:09

i dont understand why they restart, take for instance a race ive had recently,

i started at the back in my FXR got caught up in the first corner carnage, had damage to the suspension, so hazard lights on i got back to the pits got fixed up, lost about 30-45 seconds doing this, when i came out of the pits i was 6th (was a 10 lap race on blackwood gp and i think there were 10-12 in the server), everyone ignored the restart calls, as people just sat at the first corner pressing shift+r all the time. i pushed as hard as i dared, cought 5th and 4th places within 2 laps, they were having their own little battle, i jst sat behind for a while let my tyres cool off a bit, was a good battle infront, 4th place made a mistake out of turn 2 (the chicane) and spun, 5th placed guy was then slowed onto the straight, so i got past them both and up to 4th, with i think 6 laps left i was 15 sec off the guy in 3rd place catching him by 4 seconds per sector, so i soon got up behind him and got past him up to 3rd fairly quickly. i then got a decent gap and was willing to settle for 3rd keeping the tyres checked and keeping a steady pace. on the last lap i passed one of the 2 cars infront who was going very slow, only reasons i can think of was a puncture or out of fuel. by the end i was 20 seconds behind the winner, meaning i gained about 15 seconds on him during the race, big gaps caused by first corner carnage, i think 3rd down to 8th were involved the last few were slow starters so got through the gaps and i was the only one of those taken out (dunno what caused it, lag maybe) at the first corner that continued the rest of the race straight away, others reset to the pits after a whole lap of pressing shift+r but i prefer continuing on, as racers would in real life getting patched up in the pits and seeing what happens, i think i got lucky that other racers were slow because they had a bad setup or they were just relatively new.

once a race has restarted i never reset to the pits unless im blocking the track and a group of cars are coming round the corner, because i dont like losing a lap, i try and finish on the lead lap as much as i can, even if that means cruising back to the pits with wheels in different directions from an accident

just proves a point that if these people spend less time pressing shift and r then they could get a decent result out of the race as i am not the quickest driver out there and frustratingly some of the people that do this end up setting the fastest lap of the race once they finish wingeing, so they arent slow either!

just my 'brief' moneys worth on the subject

edit: almost forgot to say On Topic... yes something to decline restarts would be good, as it is very frustrating when it happens and you are in a decent position

tailing

21st August 2005, 02:16

hehe i thought i'm the only one thinking like this :) Usaly on the servers i play people could decide very well when to restart or not. And i had it maybe 10 times in my LFS life that a race has been restarted and i realy didn't wanted to restart.

Imo it can make thinks worse. I had it once that ppl wanted to restart but couldn't because of restart limit , and then one smart a** blocked the track with his car. The leader could avoid the crash , but i and the guy following me couldn't avoid it. So someone asked the a** why he did that. And he replied with "couse we/you did't restart". Of course there is no excuse for doing so, but restictions can cause people making stupid things.

We certainly don't want to make things too restrictive that's for sure, however yesterday I was on the same server again and I got used to no early restarts.
Still either way I don't worry about restarts much, half the time I'm the one who's made it through clean into the lead and I'll still vote for the sake of the guys whose race was ruined. It's only when there's about 5 or 6 in a row that I start to get pissed off :)

JeffR

22nd August 2005, 07:08

The standard for NR2003 is that some servers don't allow any restarts at all. Other servers don't allow any restarts after 1 or 2 laps are completed, and limit the restarts to only 1 per race.

I think this would be a good example to follow.

cobra193

28th June 2006, 18:40

Maybe give a weight to each vote. In other words, no matter how many votes, there will be no restart unless the leader also votes for a restart.

Maybe the driver currently in 2nd gets his vote counted as 1 1/2 votes and those in dead last get 1/2 a vote or none at all?

I like the idea of having the field VOTE for a restart, but there's been many times where you can take advantage of people that may be faster but more careless on the start to get in front, then when you are clear and in command of the race you're suddenly staring at the starting lights again. :(

There have also been PLENTY of times when there is a wreck due to someone being TOTALLY Careless and the leaders VERY GRACIOUSLY vote to restart.

Albieg

24th July 2006, 20:28

Sorry to revive such a thread, but I personally dislike the restart system and the attitude of some players who decide they can restart only because they're late and are totally disrespectful to the leaders.
Perhaps a system where the vote of the leading drivers is more important than the ones who just came in and are eager for a restart would help.

Yisc[NL]

24th July 2006, 20:51

I don't think it's a good idea to let people who crashed decide to restart a race. As stated, in many situations the people who managed to start clean, are punnished with a restart. I like the idea that from a certain point of damage (x %) your car is automaticly put in the box and you can only spectate the rest of the race. So if you start clean, no problem and have fun, if you decide to go all the way in the first corner, punnishment and wait it out for as long as it takes.

1) the serious racers get rid of the guys wrecking (if not kicked or banned anyway)

2) No more damaged vehicles on or near the track who can decided to go and have some 'fun' with or against fellow racers

3) maybe it makes people think about their actions and let them see there are consequences to it

Seahorse

24th July 2006, 21:07

I raced at BL in the Fox yesterday. Every time one of the clan who own the server FUBARd their starts or crashed on lap 1 they re-started. After the 6th re-start it got ridiculous. Not sure you can vote against admins though...:pillepall

Becky Rose

24th July 2006, 22:02

I've maybe lost 40-50 race leads from restarts I would rather didn't happen, and benefitted from a restart maybe 3 or 4 times - although I would have been prepared to wait.

In my ideal world all server would be set to run races at x minute intervals and that's it... Auto-restart every 10 minutes on an 8 minute race and so on, with no voting, thus solving two problems.

The only time it's worth restarting a race is if a driver was not at their desk and caused a startline pileup, I can't right now think of another ok scenario to restart, but you see ... when a driver IS afk and takes out half a dozen cars nobody ever cares and carries on racing anyway, so what's the point of having it?

Allowing a restart only serves to encourage bad starts.

djdolber

24th July 2006, 23:07

I agree totally to what most of you say. I was out racing a popular server with FOX/Blackwood combination today. And it got pretty ugly with restarts and pileups and wreckers at the middle of the straight at lap 5/6 etc.. I posted a thread earlier where i suggested "lock race", witch basicly mean, after 30 seconds or so, the race locks, and no restarting can be made.. Either way i think the problem here is people are really impatient.

A slow/ok driver will se no good come out from running in the back and getting blue flags for 6 laps, and therefore vote for restart to get a shot at some glory.

A driver that is faster than the normal guy wont care much for restarting in most cases, because he realizes he can gain a few positions for the next starting grid and so on. You gotta work your way up a couple of races sometimes to get ahead of the chaos.:scratchch

I guess most people want to win as cheap as possible, and dont respect others :shrug:. The good/bad thing with this kind of online gaming is that everyone has the same power(with voting, etc), but some use it for the wrong purpose.

Hog700

25th July 2006, 08:30

Would there be any way to link the "restart" option to the "collision detection" feature seen on some servers?

What I mean is that if your car has been detected to have had a major collision, the opportunity for you to vote for a restart is removed.

Yes - it may not be entirely fair on someone who has been wrecked in the first corner, but it also takes away the ability for a first corner wrecker to keep calling for restarts too............:shrug:

Zimmi

25th July 2006, 10:06

"No restarts" would be great !!!

Other ways:

A: what about persisting on the voting-principle and the last word (vote) has the actual race leader ?!?!? :scratchch
B: The race leader has to decide wheter the race restarts or not...
C: The vote of the race-leader weights 2 votes

I guess option "C" is the best one...

Bob Smith

25th July 2006, 11:58

The problem is people are too selfish. If somebody spins, that's it, they want to restart regardless. If somebody is doing well, even if they're the only one who didn't spin, they don't want to restart, because winning a race against nobody is somehow enjoyable.

I don't think I've ever voted to restart after an accident unless I know half the field was taken out. Also once onto lap 2 I refuse to restart.

Albieg

25th July 2006, 12:23

"No restarts" would be great !!!

C: The vote of the race-leader weights 2 votes

I guess option "C" is the best one...

A weighted system would be better, votes count in descending order: more value to the vote of the leader, then all the others have decreasing value. A system to prevent restarts from people who just entered and think their time is much more valuable then the time of the people who started minutes before them would be appreciated, too.
But in the end I'll have to agree that most of these issues would be useless if people were just a bit more polite. Spending most of my time on demo servers I should say that this is nothing strange, but it happens that some member of some valued team, from time to time, only relies upon technical possibilities of the server: if you can do it, it's nice (or fair) to do it, so why not restart, even when it's unfair to people who are racing? If the vote goes well, it's democracy, man...
Democracy really sucks sometimes, especially when the minorities are not adequately protected.

alland44

25th July 2006, 12:39

In sprint races 4 - 5 laps on a medium track (as club, Blackwood) restart should not be allowed. People who chrashed their cars have just a little time, waiting for the next race.

If it`s 10 or more laps on a long track - Then a restart could be considered, once and only once, to give the racers a second possibillity.

Often restarts is being offered by the race leaders, if we are few racers on a track, and someone have missed a corner in the beginning of the race. restarts are seldom on a full server.

But being a simulator, restarts should not happen. EVER !

wsinda

25th July 2006, 13:00

IMHO, early restarts are a reward for selfish driving.
In my ideal world all server would be set to run races at x minute intervals and that's it... Auto-restart every 10 minutes on an 8 minute race and so on, with no voting, thus solving two problems.I like that idea. A reckless driver would be punished in two ways. Not only is he forced to wait for the next race, he will also receive more criticism from the drivers who were taken out by him.

To cure the impatience of those who have to spectate, there could also be a countdown timer (e.g. "04:35:21 to next race").

The only time it's worth restarting a race is if a driver was not at their desk and caused a startline pileupThat can be solved by forcing drivers to spectate if they don't push the throttle in the first 2 seconds of the race.

alland44

25th July 2006, 13:05

That can be solved by forcing drivers to spectate if they don't push the throttle in the first 2 seconds of the race.

2 seconds is far to much. If the racer is present, he will touch the pedal just before the lamps turns green.

The solution would be to "spectate" racers which doesn`t touch their pedals 2 seconds before race starts.

Hyperactive

25th July 2006, 15:27

When people were playing S1 and heard that S2 would come with car damage they thought that it would solve the T1 carnage. We have the no-restarts option with a timer - it should solve the problem. We have the "no mid-race join" and still we get T1 carnage. Sometimes we even have admins present and still people get their/others' cars upside down...

Only way to stop the T1 carnage is to force people to practise starts (braking points to T1 and alternative lines through it) and learn to see and interpret things happening in front of them.

And one restart per race sounds good to me. Even if get haxored in both starts it's still better than to be haxored 10 times in a row, with restart every time.

I don't agree with the timed race-concept because I'd like to know the exact number of laps beforehand. For longer races (>30min, well not that long :p) the timed race works better, but for shorter races I like the laps based option. It's clearer and allows more errors, because if you spin and the leader don't, you have less chance of catching him. Because he can't slow down and try to use some evil tactics to try to let the timer go to zero just before he crosses the line. This is unlikely to happen, though but on some occasions it could make the races more like the final qualify sessions in F1: the leader just tries to finish the race with as little laps as possible.

fragile_dog

25th July 2006, 16:16

What about next race starts 1 min after the last race? With no option for restart :).