Running out of gas suggestion

[overclocked412]

Devs, Heres an idea which I think would be neat. When a car runs out of gas, let it restart once but run rough and only go for another couple miles (or mile) whatever it be, I think it would be more realistic. Nothing like the fun frustration of trying to get a car to start thats out of gas! :thumb::)

[Roadie]

usually when your car is out of gas its out...

[Vendetta]

Lol ^^

[overclocked412]

Fumes man, fumes! :-p. I just think the ignition button should do more than restart it when it stalls from some big strange hit. I want to see stalling from engine failure and smoke coming from the hood area, etc :p.

[Roadie]

Do you want it to make you a sandwich also?

[overclocked412]

oh cool!! can it really??? ;-)

[AndroidXP]

Well, realistically yes, when you run out of fuel it shouldn't be that abrupt and absolute.

Normally when you run out of fuel, you start noticing this in the corners, when the remaining fuel floats away from the fuel intake in your gas tank. When back on the straight, the engine starts again and you can continue driving. Besides that, when you completely run out of fuel, it's also more like a few last hiccups until the engine shuts off, rather than a sudden stop like we have in LFS.

But that's all just nitpicking and the LFS model gets the point across quite good.


PS: I speak from experience

[PLAYLIFE]

I remember F1 drivers waving their cars left to right and left again so that they could get what littel fuel they had left. This would also be cool to able to do. But it is ofcourse, a small detail

[ajp71]

Simulating fuel swashing about in the fuel tank would be a tiny detail to simulate maybe in S3 or beyond, could also have a small effect on weight distribution but for now I'd rather see it drop dead than a canned effect of the engine running rough or only when it's turning :shrug:

[FPVaaron]

I don't think the car should start again once it runs out of fuel but when you get low on fuel around corners the car should jolt a little from the fuel sloshing left and right getting little air bubbles in the fuel line.

[bobvanvliet]

It would be cool if this was modelled accurately but...

I agree I would only want the change if the effect was actually simulated, not as a "canned effect" that kicks in at, say, 1% fuel. :shrug:

[Vain]

I think a two-dimensional simulation would be enough to get the effect, even if you simplify the matter by assuming the upper line of the fuel is always linear. That would reduce the amount of needed calculations to a minimum and still produce realistic behaviour.

Vain

[bobvanvliet]

Come to think of it, I agree this wouldn't take too much calculation, Vain.

There is of course, already a G number available for the car. It should be simple enough to determine how this would effect the COG of the fuel mass (and coupled with the fuel level, wheter the intake 'runs dry').

Also, fuel level already influences total car COG, as handling changes during a stint.

So you would just have to make the system a bit more dynamic by including an extra step. On the other hand, every extra calculation adds to processor load and you have to make damn sure those 'costs' are worth the benefit. As Playlife mentioned this is a small detail and certainly shouldn't be very high on the list of priorities... :shrug:

I could imagine however, that when you tell someone this effect is simulated, they would agree instantly that calling LFS a 'sim' in stead of a 'game' is justified. :D

[NaBUru38]

Another problem: why do you lose all your laps when you enter the pits? It's completely unfair. The other day I was on a 15 lap race, and was 2nd. At lap 9 the car slowed down and returned to the pits... with 0 laps. Is that necessary at all?

[bobvanvliet]

You only loose your laps when you shift-S to the pits, not when you drive there and stop at a pit box. Seems completely normal to me. :shrug:

Anyhoo, this thread is discussing something else. If you're still unclear about the pitting thing, I suggest you search for an answer or post in the beginners section of the forum. :thumb:

[Vain]

1. When the fuel-tank is full or at least half-filled the COG of the vehicle is about untouched by the distribution of fuel in the tank. Wether 5L go to the right or not doesn't really influence the COG of a 1300kg car, when you take the distance of the tank to the COG into consideration.
2. When fuel is low, like 10L, the mass of the fuel is so low that even if 50% went to one side the effect would again be very low.
3. The effect of fuel-distribution in the tank on the COG of the car is, so I estimate, directionally proportional to the acceleration of the car. Calculating the dynamic COG of the fuel in the tank would most propably produce nothing but a linear equotation that depends on the acceleration of the car. So if the effect should be calculated, even though it is small, it shouldn't be calculated by measuring the dynamic COG of the fuel using a finit-elements-method but by using an approximization using the acceleration on the fuel. If my assumption above is right this will give the correct COG, if my assumption is wrong it will still leave us with good results, costing less calculation time than the clock in the streetcars ;) .
4. I'd like to trigger the "does the car run dry under this acceleration?"-calculation by a acceleration/fuel-load-ratio. If the ratio is higher than an empirical value the game begins to check wether the car runs dry by using the twodimensional linear approximization of the fuel distribution in the tank discussed above.
That would give correct results in any situation, even in a Mechanik'ed FO8 with 4g lateral acceleration and will only cause minimal CPU-load. Really minimal. In usual mode only the caluclation of a single division and one comparison and in propably-dry-mode just a linear equotation per frame.
I think it's worth this.

Vain

P.S.: Hm, I should one day begin to write in easier sentences... ;)

[Takumi_Project.d]

the ecu on some new cars gives you a signal that you are getting close to the bottom of the tank by making the engine have "a miss" ie skip a cylinder in the firing order just one time - enough for you to notice. i think that could be cool :) would let you know you only have a kilometer left or so, and if you just went pass the pits, better go damn easy or shut her off and roll :D

[Hyperactive]

Cog movements inside the tank? The effect is so little. You get almost bigger effect if the driver is chewing gum and moves the gum from left side to right side in his mouth.

Only thing I would be interested are the forces which are caused by the movement of the fuel. And they aren't that big either.

[bobvanvliet]

takumi: Would this also be done in race-cars? I don't thinks so. :shrug:

Vain: I hadn't really though the fuel/car weight ratio through. You're right about that being too little an effect to be worth the calculation. :x The rest of your story seems logical enough aswell, and I think that when this would be implemented, it would certainly add to the overall experience of the game. :D

[NaBUru38]

the ecu on some new cars gives you a signal that you are getting close to the bottom of the tank by making the engine have "a miss" ie skip a cylinder in the firing order just one time - enough for you to notice. i think that could be cool :) would let you know you only have a kilometer left or so, and if you just went pass the pits, better go damn easy or shut her off and roll :D

I would love that!!! But I would put that twice: 10 and 2 km before runout.

[Takumi_Project.d]

takumi: Would this also be done in race-cars? I don't thinks so. :shrug:

well i saw/heard about this feature on an audi A8 diesel, so that's a road car :)

[tristancliffe]

Diesels can do that - you just cut the mixture for a rev or two. But in a SI engine you'll almost certainly cause problems with weak mixtures or spark fouling.

[sgt.flippy]

Just tonight I saw top gear running an audi A8 for 800miles, with no refuels, and accidently I ran out of fuel today in LFS. In lfs I have completely no warning, suddenly my car stopped, I was thinking, wth is going here? Then I saw the fuel was all gone. There should at least by a warning light. In that audi you first had the warning light, than it started to make some noises, after that you could hear the fuel pump, pumping air, and after that, they arrived at their destination. The fuel meter was standing below zero for quite a while. But all by all, it doesn't have to be too high tech for me, just a warning light before you run out of fuel would be nice... Or did I look over that one?

[Vain]

Press F12.

Vain

[sgt.flippy]

I won't press F12, because that brings up a menu, and I don't want a menu in the middle of my "simulator", do you have a menu in your car on top of your steering wheel? We don't. Do you have a light in your car that tells you you're almost out of gas? Normally you do, so for a simulator, it should have it, it's that simple.

Sorry if I sound rude, but having the suggestion to press F12 is just lame, it's a simulator, so I should be seeing this kind of stuff in my car and not onscreen.

[Lible]

This really isn`t that important, is it?

[keiran]

@sgt.flippy
Single seaters don't have a fuel light nor a gauge. Not sure about the GTRs but I presume most race preped cars would have them removed. The information is fed to the drive via the pit radio, so unless you want to have someone sitting on team speak reading out the values to you ... there is really no way to simulate this without a menu. You have to remember there are things which can't be avoided because a game doesn't have the same effect as real life.

Keiran

[sgt.flippy]

Okay then, in that case it would actually be nice to have some guy telling me I'm running out of gas, just like that little proggy that tells me where my opponents are.

[tristancliffe]

What happens if you need a splash and dash at the end of a long race, but your pitstrategy is set at 100%? Do you just accept 100% and lose the race, or do you accept the menu as the only way to tell the pits you only want 5% this time...

[Vain]

1. I never owned a car with a fuel-light, yes I owned multiple cars.
2. This is a sim. Things aren't real and they will never be real. They may be realistic, but not real.
3. Look at the gauge in the dash when you want to know wether the car runs out of gas or not. If you don't want to look at the gauge you'll have to live with this.
4. Did you just say you use pitspotter after telling me it's too unrealistic to have a digital fuelgauge?
5. Sorry if I sound rude, I'm just imitating you. :razz:
Relax, I won't bite your head off, so please don't bite my head off, cheers :) .

Vain

[sgt.flippy]

Actually I just used pitstopper once offline for testing and after that never again, but oh well. I'll give up and I'll say you guys are right, it just seems too logical to me to have one of those lights. It just seemed more logical that there was a way it would tell you you're running out of fuel, and when I race online I never have to look at the fuel gauge, because I always start with enough to finish the race, but I was doing time trials and suddenly it stopped. I'll pay more attention to my gauge from now on, it would just come in handy to have it do something when you're running out of fuel.

P.S. I won't bite your head off... my mouth isn't big enough for that :D j/k

[PLAYLIFE]

U know, I just thought that it is quite pointless to discuss the how the car behaves under almost no fuel situation. It is doubtful if after 6 months of racing LFS u still run out of fuel during a race...

[AndroidXP]

It's amazing how many people think that they have to calculate the exact amount of fuel needed for the race distance to stay competitive. Of course, running with 100% all the time isn't such a good idea, but calculating the fuel so you pass the finish line with 0.2% left is no different than if you had 5% left.

Usually I take the amount posted on LFS Fuel Control, round it up to whole percent and then multiply with # of laps. Doesn't have any unnecessary fuel load yet has a nice buffer incase you need more fuel due to whatever reasons. If this results in way too much fuel left I can always see how much I can remove after the race, if I absolutely have to.

[Vain]

I'm also very conservative about fuel. It's always good to have 3% too much with you. You never know when you have a "right-foot-day" and increase your fuel-usage by 0.2% per lap. And it's also good to not run out of gas directly after finish, so you can still mess around after the race. ;)
The discussion was mainly about the strange running out of gas in LFS and how one could give LFS a more realistic behaviour without using too much CPU-time.

Vain

[Hyperactive]

Using 40% for shorter races should mean that you never run out of fuel. Of course longer races are different but in general aiming for to finish with 0.1% left is bit optimistic. Putting 5 or even 10% more doesn't make the pit stop that much longer and in lap times the difference is barely noticeable or none...

[PLAYLIFE]

Guys-guys we are getting way off topic. The thread title is "Running out of gas suggestion". Not "Not running out of gas suggestion":razz:

[BlakjeKaas]

I think its ok like this, cause else you got engine problems, and you have to put more fuel in it, resutling in lower lap times.
lower laptimes means confusion, confusion means extra risk = extra crashes.
so...

[lalathegreat]

or it would be better to have the capability to have 1 or 2 people spectating that u could talk to via a mic and tell them what u want. I don't know how u guys ajust how much Fuel tire preasure and all that while coming into the pits :shrug:

[lalathegreat]

or it would be better to have 1 or 2 people spectating u could talk to adjust
those things for u.(league races)
don't know how u guys drive and adjust at the same time.

[Shinanigans]

Sorry for digging this old one up, just searching for something else... but!

No one mentioned riding the starter motor all the way back to the pits!? :hyper:

[Blowtus]

Sorry if I sound rude, but having the suggestion to press F12 is just lame, it's a simulator, so I should be seeing this kind of stuff in my car and not onscreen.

Do you wear a helmet when you race?

[sgt.flippy]

Do you wear a helmet when you race?

No, that's moronic... I use a dfp and that's simulation enough for me in the real world, but inside my computer it could be better. I'm not saying we should get rid of F12, I use it now more than I used to, but still, I always try to race with an empty screen, but at this point you really can't, you always have to check somehow how much fuel you exactly have. I wish the dials in the cars would be more clear, when you use the KPH dials, you can barely read them, or you have to zoom in, wich makes you lose sight of the mirrors, so now I just try to guess how fast I'm going. And for the fuel indicator, I don't even look at it because I know I won't get any wiser out of it.

[tristancliffe]

In real life you can never trust a fuel gauge to be accurate, especially at low levels.

In LFS you can trust it (as it's right), but it's hard to read accurately due to pixels and stuff.

These two points cancel out in my opinion, making the LFS gauge fairly real. BUT we also have the F12 menu for more accurate data. I'm hoping that we get a hardcore mode in which F9 is replaced with visible tyre condition, F10 is replaced with nothing, F11 is replaced with cockpit indicators and keyboard/wheel button shortcuts, and F12 is limited to a few setup choices (to replace pit radio/hand signals/shouting to mechanics in the pits).

[JohnUK89]

These two points cancel out in my opinion, making the LFS gauge fairly real. BUT we also have the F12 menu for more accurate data. I'm hoping that we get a hardcore mode in which F9 is replaced with visible tyre condition, F10 is replaced with nothing, F11 is replaced with cockpit indicators and keyboard/wheel button shortcuts, and F12 is limited to a few setup choices (to replace pit radio/hand signals/shouting to mechanics in the pits).

+1

Bloody good idea Tristan!