LFS' current state and you!!11!

[Sub_Atomic]

At the risk of inciting hatred and stupidness from the forum trolls. I was wondering what people thought, or are thinking, about LFS in it's current state?

Does anyone think we'll get a content update soon (read sometime next year) or do you think the LFS community will eventually die off with no updates for another year or so? or do you think it's going to keep plugging along as it is until a proper LFS killer comes along?

[thisnameistaken]

Big patches tend to turn up every six months or so. The last one came in the summer, so maybe we'll see one soon. Scawen seems to like to clear his desk a bit before christmas, then take a nice long break, so again - maybe we'll see something soon.

I am not Scawen, nor am I speaking for Scawen. I am guessing based on the way things have gone since I've been here.

[anbiddulph]

LFS will get content/major update within the next year


scirocco? hopefully :P

[danowat]

LFS will continue as it's always done, a patch here and there, people coming and going, but it will always be there and will always be improved as time goes by, albeit, slowly.

[Mille Sabords]

LFS will continue as it's always done, a patch here and there, people coming and going, but it will always be there and will always be improved as time goes by, albeit, slowly.

+1

And some of us will keep playing.
Interesting sidenote: The more you race, the faster it wears out. In some years all that will be left in LFS will be beginners ("kids") and casual racers ("old farts with busy life") :razz:

[danowat]

casual racers ("old farts with busy life") :razz:

Less of the old fart you :D

[ATC Quicksilver]

I think we will see a new track or new extention to South City, along with graphical updates to westhill, the rest of the car cockpits, and the Scirocco, all ready for christmas.

[Thunderhead]

I think we will see a new track or new extention to South City, along with graphical updates to westhill, the rest of the car cockpits, and the Scirocco, all ready for christmas.

For some reason I find that hard to believe in.:shrug:

[Sub_Atomic]

Do you think the injection of new tracks, be it fantasy or real life, would bring back most of the community? i.e. instead of another section of South City or another one of Fern Bay. I wouldn't mind seeing double the tracks we already have, but not new extensions, but new tracks. Maybe bringing in community modders do add some tracks maybe? Then get said tracks passed by the Devs before we can download/use said tracks?

[Furiously-Fast]

Next year with major updates. There could be better damage models, updated interiors for the rest of the cars and the Scirocco!:D

[Thunderhead]

Do you think the injection of new tracks, be it fantasy or real life, would bring back most of the community? i.e. instead of another section of South City or another one of Fern Bay. I wouldn't mind seeing double the tracks we already have, but not new extensions, but new tracks. Maybe bringing in community modders do add some tracks maybe? Then get said tracks passed by the Devs before we can download/use said tracks?

I think it would bring some people back, but not all. Personally, I'd love to see atleast one new track that isn't just a extension of an existing one.

[danowat]

Do you think the injection of new tracks, be it fantasy or real life, would bring back most of the community?

Who are we talking about?, do you have any figures on how many people have "left"?

[AMB]

LFS is made of candy and other sugary goodnesses...:scratchch

[thisnameistaken]

Maybe bringing in community modders do add some tracks maybe?

How many cans of worms are you planning to open in this thread? :D

Progress happens as fast as the devs work. They are not planning to open LFS up to modding right now.

[Glenn67]

and casual racers ("old farts with busy life") :razz:

:x Just because I keep saying that doesn't give you license young man :razz:

As for tracks bringing some of the older LFSers back, I'm not so sure :shrug: LFS is continually evolving over time, some enjoy the path it's taking others don't.

Is this like a consumer confidence survey or something :scratchch

[G!NhO]

I like LFS how it is now!

any update is just something extra :)

[thisnameistaken]

As for tracks bringing some of the older LFSers back, I'm not so sure :shrug: LFS is continually evolving over time, some enjoy the path it's taking others don't.

I just don't have much time any more, and eventually I found I was racing so infrequently I packed up my wheels in the loft. I've had them out once since, when a friend talked me into going online with him. Then I packed them away again.

If new tracks turned up - which didn't consist mostly of existing stretches of track - I'd probably give them a bash. I don't think I'll pull out my wheel for the Scirocco though.

[[DUcK]]

I like LFS how it is now!

any update is just something extra :)

But you've only been playing since Jan '08 :D

I feel the same, I'm getting a tad bored of the game how it is now... But it's still enjoyable. The only disappointing thing I find, is the lack of 'good' online racing. There's still full CTRA servers, sure, but maybe 4 or 5 of them are good and clean races. The rest are either fast and dirty, or slow and wreckless :)

Maybe implanting a totally new track, with the new car, might be a quick fix and bring some guys back, then we'll see what happens from there.

Keep in mind, I can't for see the future, and I'm not holding a crystal ball (unfortunately); none of us here are.
Anyway, although the dev's may not have brought out anything for a while, keep in mind that this game really doesn't cost that much to buy, nor are the dev's getting any extra pay. I'm guessing it would be hard to keep the motivation going.. So we have to understand this from their point of view as well as our needs too :thumb:

[SabersKunk]

Please let the FZR interior be available this side of xmas.

[danowat]

Any new content would only keep people amused for a very short period of time, I mean, how many people now have driven on all the 800 or so different combos?.

For me, LFS is about the racing, if it weren't for league racing, I'd probably never touch it, any content, i.e. track, car, would do nothing to change the way I feel about LFS, or the way I play it, it would be an amusing distraction for a very short period of time.

However, there are a number of issues and fixes that, IMO, should come way, way before any new content, fixes to the multiplayer side (there are some seriously easy things that could be done to improve that) and physics side (things like proper damage, improved tyre physics, turbo physics, engine management like water temp from damaged rads etc etc etc), these things would improve LFS, much MUCH more than any new content, and potentially bring back any LFS'ers who defected to iRacing.

New car or track is a publicity stunt, something to please those with short attention spans, WOW, new car, that wow factor stays for about, oh 5 mins, it's also a much more news worthy addition in terms of publicity than, "tyre physics improved".

[Glenn67]

.

:smash3d: You hit the nail on the head. Except for me it's about racing with friends...

[Mille Sabords]

:smash3d: You hit the nail on the head. Except for me it's about racing with friends...

Nail on the thread?

[danowat]

Nail in the coffin of these types of threads, but I doubt it.

If I had a £ for everytime one of those popped up over the years, I'd be a very rich man.

Anyone remember the great "skidmarks" threads all those years ago LOL

It's the youth of today, bang bang new content, new content, such short attention spans.

I was in the xbox forums yesterday, and people were actually complaining that the demo, yes, THE DEMO, for Left 4 Dead was late, I mean jees.

[Electrik Kar]

New car or track is a publicity stunt, something to please those with short attention spans, WOW, new car, that wow factor stays for about, oh 5 mins, it's also a much more news worthy addition in terms of publicity than, "tyre physics improved".

New car maybe (I think some people forgot we got the new BMW within a week or two of the patch :D) but a new track would be kind of special.

Anyway, my guess is there will be an XMAS patch, it will include the scirocco, there will be a Westhill update (not huge), a couple more interiors, and maybe one or two more things like barrier bug fixed, or small improvements to the graphics engine.

[ColeusRattus]

Even though I havn't logged many miles in the last few years (heck, I've been here a long time...) It's still the only piece of software that's constantly on my harddisk since 2003, sometimes even twice for testpatches.

So I don't think it'll die off, allthough it has certain "ripples": high activity after a new patch is released, which wears off until the next patch is out. That pretty much sums how I drive: much when new things are there to be tried out, but declining. Still, I guess like most people in here, I never totally stop playing.

On a funny sidenote, other racing sims actually make me play LfS. Last time that happened with GTR-Evo: After getting tired with the Caterhams on the Nordschleife, I raced LfS more often, as, even though GTR drives quite well IMHO, it made me crave for LfS that does so many things better.

[Rotary]

After nearly 6 years of playing LFS the development has hit an all time slow and I, personally, have lost a lot of interest in LFS. I still pop in every now and then to see if/what anything has happened... nothing has happened. :shrug:

I've got no idea if the Alpha tag will ever be removed from S2, but after 3 years I would expect it to be at least S2 Beta by now. :scratchch

[thisnameistaken]

After nearly 6 years of playing LFS the development has hit an all time slow

Of course it has. As software gets more complex, it becomes more time-consuming to make changes to it. This is perfectly normal.

[Hyperactive]

New car or track is a publicity stunt, something to please those with short attention spans, WOW, new car, that wow factor stays for about, oh 5 mins, it's also a much more news worthy addition in terms of publicity than, "tyre physics improved".

Couldn't disagree more. LFS already has pretty good tire physics which could be made great with small (but defenately time consuming) updates. Make the tires slide less, make longnitudal grip more realistic, improve the heat model. With these items done well LFS could very well beat iracing's ass in tire physics.

What people seem to want in my opinion is new tracks to drive with those good tire physics. No matter how great some product is, it needs new content every now and then for the simple reason that repetition does no good. A fishing game needs new oceans and boats every now and then, a game about ski jumping needs more than two arenas and two jumpers to keep people interested.

New physics won't bring anyone back if it is the same tracks you need to drive once again which you have already driven to death. Even with the league racing aspect, I'm really struggling to start LFS for the most time. And to be honest I'm itching to drive that LX6, FZ50 or XRT but there is no place to drive...

The main thing for LFS is the lack of new tracks. If anything LFS needs new corners very badly. If a new track like Kyoto or Aston was released it would take weeks and probably more than a month to find a server that isn't running that track with lots of people on it. A new track would also send the signal to the world that LFS isn't dying.

Scirocco and a mosambik language patch, that's what going on :/

And tbh. the more complex just isn't correct. Apart from the tires, most of the stuff is just as hard and time consuming as it was 4 years ago. LFS hasn't developed that much since the 2006 when the last physics patch was released.

[S14 DRIFT]

Lol, new car would be good really.

*cough*

[SabersKunk]

+1 for a new track environment.

[JasonJ]

Option 5)
Candy Mountain, yaay :razz:

[Mazz4200]

Option 5)
Candy Mountain, yaay :razz:
In the Big Rock Candy Mountain you never change yer socks....sounds good to me (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6iLD6ewxp8Q) :tilt:

[thisnameistaken]

In the Big Rock Candy Mountain you never change yer socks....sounds good to me (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6iLD6ewxp8Q) :tilt:


If a hobo approaches you and suggests that you might like to travel to a mountain made out of sweets, call the police.

[Mazz4200]

If a hobo approaches you and suggests that you might like to travel to a mountain made out of sweets, call the police.
You've met the wife then...

[MAD3.0LT]

lol why are u guys whining and crying like little biatchs the devs have live's to :) i have been playing lfs for god knows how long :P i still rember hex editing the XFG and doing 33 sec lap times on blackwood in beta.

the way i see it lfs is a alltime good racing sim and if they dont make it nfs style it will keep attracting good sim racers :)

[Danke]

Big patches tend to turn up every six months or so. The last one came in the summer, so maybe we'll see one soon. Scawen seems to like to clear his desk a bit before christmas, then take a nice long break, so again - maybe we'll see something soon.

I am not Scawen, nor am I speaking for Scawen. I am guessing based on the way things have gone since I've been here.

Big patches do tend to show up every 6 months. And almost always they are preceded by a 30-45 days of complaints that LFS is dead.

This thread doesn't fit into that category. Those usually have titles like, "LFS - nothing new for a long time" or "LFS is dead to me" or "Nobody races online anymore". By my calendar, we're almost due for one of those threads. C'mon people, get to work! :tilt:

[Gentlefoot]

I don't have so much time for LFS these days and for me at least, you get out what you put in. I enjoy competitive races but the most enjoyable races are those where I have put a lot of time and effort into my preparation. I just don't have the time or inclination to do this anymore. A new car or track isn't going to change that.

I think to encourage me back to LFS would need significant changes to the current game. I still think the sound could be improved, the lack of prototype LMP style cars is a big shame for me, changeable weather conditions with rain would make longer races really exciting and the biggest thing for me is still the crash detection problems.

But to be honest, even then I doubt I would ever play LFS to the level I was at a year or two ago. I tried a long race a couple of weeks ago and I just found myself slightly bored after 20 odd laps.

I think for me LFS is reaching the end of its product life cycle.

[JasonJ]

In the Big Rock Candy Mountain you never change yer socks....sounds good to me (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6iLD6ewxp8Q) :tilt:No man, you got me wrong, http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JPONTneuaF4 Scawen is Charlie. :razz: And all of us are the annoying unicorns. Sorry, I didn't know there was the other candy mountain.

[richo]

I still cant believe after all this time you still fly into space when you collide with a stationary object , that fault has plagued LFS from day one and still every bit as bad.

The sim experience flies right out of the window when you fly to the moon after a small bump with a wall or barrier...

For me that shows how slow LFS development really is, a major flaw still with us after what 6 odd years?

And yes i do try my best to stay off the walls but fun original servers like CTRA Bump and Jump just highlight a fundamental fault with LFS.

Apart from that rant LFS needs ,new tracks.

[Flame CZE]

Hmm it looks this thread is going to be the LFS mprovement suggestions thread.

[5haz]

Whenever an 'LFS Killer' comes along, it will have to be pretty amazing to kill LFS, currently I can't think of any (NetKar maybe, but its pace of development is equally glacial :razz:).

But when LFS final is released (wether I'll still be alive I don't know), it will die fairly quickly if 3rd party addons are not premitted.

[Luke.S]

LFS is made of candy and other sugary goodnesses...

[S14 DRIFT]

Lies. :(

But Scirroco and a couple of new tracks in the next patch would be awesome... :x

[th84]

More MRT friendly tracks would bring me back.

[Bandit77]

... I just found myself slightly bored after 20 odd laps.

I think for me LFS is reaching the end of its product life cycle.


Probably quite a few of the oldstagers (and not only them) have driven more LFS-miles than Coulthard has driven F1-miles. Actually it would seem strange if they didn't start to find it boring.

This is by no means a short "attention span" - as was mentioned. Not only because "attention span" is totally wrong an expression.

Maybe by drastically limiting your LFS-time, stop playing when it's still fun or the like you could extend LFS's "life cycle".

I did this with my motorbike. but there DOES come a time - even after not playing/riding for a looong time and feel the urge to do so - when it gets totally boring after only a couple of miles. Simply because it's the same old same. And unless you don't erase your memory it will never be as thrilling as it once was.

Nevertheless I think some new tracks would be the most promising of the life sustaining measures. If I were to move to somewhere else (completely else, that is) I'd probably ride my bike again. :D

Maybe exchanging tracks instead of adding some might be the sh*t! Coupled with altering all the cars (except for the "real" ones) a fair bit... woooohaaaaa.... :D

It won't happen. :shrug:

[S14 DRIFT]

You can't compare riding a motorcycle to playing a video game, when comparing boredom and repetitiveness. :shrug:

Tracks are fixed in game, roads are yours for the choosing in RL.

[Bandit77]

You can't compare riding a motorcycle to playing a video game, when comparing boredom and repetitiveness. :shrug:

Tracks are fixed in game, roads are yours for the choosing in RL.

Oh yeah? So the roads in RL are not fixed? I must have missed something. Elaborating on this too much wouldn't really add to the topic so I'll make a short version for you - maybe you'll understand.

Driving in RL (racing or cruising) gets boring after a while. So it's only evident that simulated driving will get boring too.

EVERYTHING gets boring if it doesn't change significantly from time to time.

[S14 DRIFT]

I mean... you can choose to go out. Where to go, when to stop, etc. No-one who has a motorcycle, when riding for pleasure, goes along the same road time and time again.

</off topic>

You arrive at a junction, you can choose to go left, or right. That's a luxury you don't have online.

Which brings me onto a possible improvement suggestion! Tracks that split and go different ways, and then rejoin later on. This gives you some choice, at least. :D

One way is faster, but much longer. Other is more difficult and technical, but shorter. Obviously you'd use different ways in different situations, but to be fair both would have to take roughly the same amount of time to drive for the average person.

[r8response]

LFS Development is slow no doubt, but you only need to look at what we've been given (for free mind you). They may take their time producing more content, but at least we know when we get it, it's always quality.

As for something new.....
I've heard its a technically impossibility due to the LFS engine. But having a completely open South City would be fantastic.

Series Admins could design a new race course the night before a race/round without the possibility of someone having done alot of practice.

[hrtburnout]

Development isn't dead. It's just in a long coma :(

[S14 DRIFT]

As for something new.....
I've heard its a technically impossibility due to the LFS engine. But having a completely open South City would be fantastic.


Yes, free roam is. LFS engine renders what you see, and nothing more. But because you 'see' 2 paths... you get my meaning? Besides, it would likely be a single track in its own right, like.. it'd be "Splittrack1 and 1r", there would not be "splittrack2", "splittrack3r", etc, so it'd exist as its own entity.

So it simply renders 2 paths, it's exactly the same, as driving around Blackwood :razz:

Unless of course, I'm a moron. Which wouldn't suprise me.:razz:

No Erik, it's dead

!

[CSU1]

As slow as the development is I feel it's the best way to accommodate what we don't yet know(in a technological/hardware/software sense). Granted such technologies such a laser scanning real life tracks is being used but here with LFS this is irrelevant as content is the result of Scawen's imagination.

LFS is a project that grows with the thoughts and ideas of it's customers under it's wings and at a pace such not to 'jump the gun' on technology, it's a cute way to go as the transition from old sofware methods to new(if needed)will be gradual and less of a pain in the arse.

I see there's a lot of people who just want state of the art software and just can't understand that you can't rush art:tilt:.

[FlonZ]

Not to sound like a prick or anything, cause I'm not, I really like LFS, and often plays.
BUT, in my opinion it has taken to long for the developers to finish this Scirocco thing.
Two news on the main site since July is too sleazy. Telling us what they are working on at the moment, or just giving us a hint on how long it will take for the next patch to be released, would make more players stick with the game. Showing us this new VW car and telling us, it will be released in Live for Speed at a later date, really made me happy, but now 3 month after we saw the car being driven at Leipzig, and still not a single comment on the progress, IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH! The same thing applies to the new interior, so perhaps they have to many things going on.

But then again, it doesn't sound like much work... Sorry for sounding negativ, but this is just the way I feel ! :(


I still voted for "LFS will get content/major update within the next year" though !

[deggis]

Adding the Scirocco is smart move though. As boring as the car choice is looking at the already available type of cars, it will bring lotsa new players. After all existing license owners won't bring money until another payment is required (S3, eh).

I think improved physics / new features would gain more than a new track. Tyres plz and something mechanical damage related changes the experience on the old tracks too. Anything that makes the driving move a step away from this abusive wr hotlap style. E.g. imagine chicanes if you actually had to slow down for them.

I have been very optimistic until lately but Scirocco patch needs to have something else too. Since there likely won't be incompatible patch after that for another 6+ months and 'short' beta->final stage can't be too far after all. I think many peope have unrealistic expectations what S2 final will be.

[boosterfire]

I'd say LFS isn't healthy, at best. The 'one patch per six months' thing can only get LFS so far. Many well known and brilliant people who were old timers and participated a lot in these forums left, and it's no wonder.

I think LFS only 'survives' because nobody has yet tried to specifically make something better than it. If a corp. or a good team of 20 people or so decided to look at LFS, and say: "Okay boys, this is what we're up against, let's beat it", it would be quite easy for them.

The reason why LFS is still doing so well is because it's in a branch of the gaming market which doesn't attract so many people in the first place, which is why big and well known game makers don't try to best it: it wouldn't be financially good.

I've known for a long time now that Scavier will not budge of their three-man team philosophy, but honestly, I don't understand it. Eventually, at this rythm, I think people will get bored of the old and crappy graphics, and bored of the lack of evolution. When that time comes, Scavier will either have to wake up or let LFS go.

/rant on

And frankly, what pisses me off the most is that Scavier don't seem to give a SHIT about their game anymore. I know they've never liked to give out info, or that they're never been that much involved on the forums, but seriously, I think Scawen posts like once a week nowadays. For a lot of people, me included, involvment from the developers is very important, and while they may be working without our knowledge, the kind of project LFS is cannot be viable without some kind of connection between the community and the very small team of devs. I've always been pissed that Eric never posts on the forums, I've always been pissed that inbetween patches we have no clue what the hell is going on, that we can only guess what's happening. How do we know they're even working? How hard can it be to post some regular updated about who's working on what, and how the progress is going? Probably not that hard.

And if they can't do it themselves, why not give the job to a trusted moderator, or a friend of them, that could create a weekly, or even daily, link between the devs and the community?

Grr...

It is time that S2 goes final. Scawen has said mostly revealed what needs to be done for it to become a reality, well, let it be so. I hope the next patch is full of these changes toward S2 final, and not only a feeble patch adding the Sirocco and a few little features to hide the emptiness. However, most of all, I would like more coommuunniicattion! Scavier don't work fast, well, so be it. It can't be easy to fundamentally change your working methods. However, the current lack of communication cannot be excused by any degree of laziness.
/rant off

[bandaid]

lots 'o text.

I wont quote the whole thing, but this post sums up my view point exactly.

I think a lot (all?) of the constant threads about new content etc, could be stopped, if only we heard from the Dev's once in a while.

We paid our money, and I will be shelling out more come S3, but honestly, how hard is it to create a topic and let us know where we're all at?

Instead of locking threads about Scirocco's, Tracks and S3, post a new one and fill us mushrooms in. :nod:

PLEASE!

[ATC Quicksilver]

I just always try to remember that S2 is probably the most boring stage, this is the time for sorting out bugs and getting the game to a stage where it will be ready for bigger updates in S3.

[richo]

We may have paid our money but that doesnt mean Scavier should do anything more than deliver the product we paid for although i do totally agree some info every now and then would stop a hell of a lot of threads.

I own a small Pc shop and i would love to have the predicament that Scavier have, alot of people desperate to buy there product. A group of people that have a passion for there product it would be a shame to let that slip by..

[Rotary]

My theory on the delayed release of the VW is that it will make the fictional cars in LFS look like they are from a game 10 years ago. Look at the RB4, compared to the other cars it looks half finished now... compared to the VW... nasty.

Anyway, the game has been more successful in its development than Racing Legends by West Racing.. lol, now that was an epic failure. LFS in its prime gave many of us a number of enjoyable and unforgetable races.

[Mountaindewzilla]

i think that the licensing is clever, because it allows people to check back later on without having to pay for it all over again.

i have to imagine they have a lot in store for us.
i recall reading something about scawen working on content development tools a while back.

i'm ready for S3 in a big way :D

[r8response]

Anyway, the game has been more successful in its development than Racing Legends by West Racing.. lol, now that was an epic failure. LFS in its prime gave many of us a number of enjoyable and unforgetable races.

Might we add nKPro to that :scratchch

[el pibe]

LFS is made of candy and other sugary goodnesses...


i would love to have a car made of candy ! :D

mhmmmm .... candy ...... I WANT IT NOW :bowdown:

[halo]

I agree those who says more improvements on tire physics, engine modeling etc. are better than new cars or tracks.
Physics engine improvements is definitely change the way we feel while driving. So if physics change in more realistic way, so does everything.
After that, maybe new model of old cars make some additional change and attract attention.
For me, the current state of LFS is already very very good.
Its look like devs wanted to make it better and better to make their dream come true.
I think this hope is keep some of us here.

[only.one.RydeR]

Posting as an EQUAL of every S2 racer here, so no you're-a-demo-racer bullshit.

I think (OK, this is what I hear from S2ers) that people are getting tired of the same config of the tracks (e.g. BL1+FBM). Maybe add a few bits to an existing area, and definitely a fresh new area would be a way to go. Personally, I like BL a lot (Is there anything to like other than BL for me, really? :P) but it seems a little... Bland. 7 corners and a really long straight just doesn't cut it for me. Maybe modify it a bit?

For the cars, from the car selection screen I think that is enough already. Although the odd object of the Scirocco would be nice :)

Maybe a suggestion though. In the latest patches, I've observed that a brand new thing isn't always the complete thing (e.g. interiors; only for the XF/XR series). I believe that when a feature is added, it has to be complete at release. Ok, maybe segmental like, have new-car-smell interiors for all road cars. I know it can't be applied to every feature in LFS (Tire physics, clutch heat) but I think a 'finish what you started' policy should be applied to new tidbits.

Thanks, Francis

[Hyperactive]

My theory on the delayed release of the VW

Where do you get that impression that the VW is "delayed"?

It was not expected to be released any time soon after the games convention or whatwasit to my knowledge

[Shotglass]

I like BL a lot (Is there anything to like other than BL for me, really? :P) but it seems a little... Bland. 7 corners and a really long straight just doesn't cut it for me. Maybe modify it a bit?

what this game desperately needs is someone to swing by erics place and tell him that corners can have varying camber through and across the width of the road

[Greboth]

I don't this lfs is dead by any mean just resting. Ive been here a fair few years now and with everyone playing less over the summer and coming back now people want something new and there isn't so these threads start. I didn't play at all really over the summer down to personal reasons but playing again recently I am enjoying it again and enjoying trying to be as quick as I once was. Sure new content (whether car/track/physics etc) would be good but I am still happily playing it as it is now.

[steve30x]

I hardly ever play LFS any more. I am waiting for the new VW car before I play again. I wont abandon LFS any time soon and I will pay for an S3 licence when it is possible to do so. This game has come a long way with only 3 developers. The only big thing I would like to be changed in S3 is the engine sounds. Other than that LFS is the best racing sim available.

What I think we badly need is the points system that was in LFS S1 where you needed so many points to unlock certain cars. This should also increase the interest in LFS again

[P V L]

I think (OK, this is what I hear from S2ers) that people are getting tired of the same config of the tracks (e.g. BL1+FBM). 7 corners and a really long straight just doesn't cut it for me. Maybe modify it a bit?

OK, someone said it before. There are ~ 800 different combos to go, most

people including myself did only may be 50 really more than a couple of laps.

For your BL1+FBM problem, do not forget you are in a demo version, full free.

Have you ever thought about buying a S2 ? To be honest this is the idea

behind a demo, getting new people to try and if they like it they buy it. :smileypul

[thisnameistaken]

what this game desperately needs is someone to swing by erics place and tell him that corners can have varying camber through and across the width of the road

I don't think the existing circuits have enough resolution in the corners to make that work very well. I'm thinking about that one corner in South City Town/Long/Sprint 2 where it goes from uphill to relatively flat, and you can feel every change.

Having said that, there are some corners (FE in particular) where it feels like there's a groove at the apex that pulls you round the corner, and if you miss it you slip to the outside.

[bbman]

I think improved physics / new features would gain more than a new track. Tyres plz and something mechanical damage related changes the experience on the old tracks too. Anything that makes the driving move a step away from this abusive wr hotlap style. E.g. imagine chicanes if you actually had to slow down for them.

Couldn't agree more...
Imagine brake heat and wear, engine & clutch damage (and wear)! Or at least ditch the .001-step adjustments already!

[Dac]

whatever happens i think we all agree theres so much more potential. lately ive been finding myself strangly drawn to the mods on rfactor :S

[boosterfire]

Another problem is that people actually stop playing between patches. You hear a lot of: "I'm waiting for the next patch to play again". That problem would mostly be avoided if patches were closer to each other, and be soothed even more if we knew how the progress was going. Scavier kind of fails at creating expectation.

Look at other online games with patched content. There are quite a lot of them on the market (most of them mmorpgs). Do people actually stop playing waiting for the next patch? No, they don't, because have enough content to be kept busy, and they know mostly what will be in the next patch, whether it be via patch notes, or communication with admins.

[STROBE]

Regarding the discussion over improved physics vs. improved content - I have to ask the obvious question. Why not both? Most of us here know that Eric develops the models and textures, Scawen codes things. Obviously anything Eric makes needs to be coded in by Scawen, but I'm assuming that coding in a new car or track is an established procedure, and not something that requires many, many hours of painstaking research before a single thing is coded such as improving tyre physics or introducing new features such as engine or brake heat.

I play LFS occasionally, but currently the lure isn't there. When I get on track, it's because I've nothing better to do, not because there's some burning urge to play LFS. The things that put me off are the silly setups that you need to be competitive (i.e. locked diff), the slidey nature of the tyres, the lack of more advanced features like more comprehensive damage model, engine temperature with damageable radiators, and the lack of new content.

Some of the current content is evidently new, and some of it clearly much older and doesn't compare. The issue is just how long we've been driving with the current content. Improved simulation features are of course needed, but to give LFS a real shot in the arm, they need to come with a new track also.

[510N3D]

mmmmh candy !!! :thumb:

[danowat]

Bottomline, it (LFS) is what it is, it has been the same for many years, and is not going to change.

They don't owe anyone anything, all we have ever paid for is S2 in the state it was when we paid for it, anything on top of that is a bonus.

People can bleat on till they are blue in the face about lack of development, lack of communication, but the fact is, thats the way it is.

It boils down to like it, or lump it, play it, don't play, no one really cares if joe bloggs is bored, or wants X or Y, play it till you are bored, then go do something else, LFS is, and always will carry on the same no matter who does or doesn't play it any more.

[Gills4life]

whatever happens i think we all agree theres so much more potential. lately ive been finding myself strangly drawn to the mods on rfactor :S

I was too for about a week ... but after that I just got tired of the poor physics, however good looking the mod was. Back to LFS :)

[Shotglass]

I don't think the existing circuits have enough resolution in the corners to make that work very well.

might be
if that is the case i recon its about time to change that... there just arent enough interesting corners in lfs

Having said that, there are some corners (FE in particular) where it feels like there's a groove at the apex that pulls you round the corner, and if you miss it you slip to the outside.

you mean in a rally dropping 1 wheel off the road and letting the sidewall brushing against the drop at the edge of the tarmac do the work way? im pretty sure the tyre model doesnt support that kind of driving

[Test Driver]

http://www.imagesforme.com/out.php/t210239_lfshistory.png (http://www.imagesforme.com/show.php/210239_lfshistory.png)

Someone posted this in the picture thread.http://www.imagesforme.com/show.php/210239_lfshistory.png (http://www.imagesforme.com/show.php/210239_lfshistory.png)

[boosterfire]

Bottomline, it (LFS) is what it is, it has been the same for many years, and is not going to change.

They don't owe anyone anything, all we have ever paid for is S2 in the state it was when we paid for it, anything on top of that is a bonus.

People can bleat on till they are blue in the face about lack of development, lack of communication, but the fact is, thats the way it is.

It boils down to like it, or lump it, play it, don't play, no one really cares if joe bloggs is bored, or wants X or Y, play it till you are bored, then go do something else, LFS is, and always will carry on the same no matter who does or doesn't play it any more.

Please, enough with the 'you paid, now shut up' thing. Yes, we've all paid, and I do agree that it doesn't give us a right to ask for anything, but it doesn't mean we can't talk about things we think are wrong.

Personally, I'm merely expression my feelings about this game, and hope that eventually Scavier hear what a lot of people have been saying for a lot of time and change their weird working methods.

[danowat]

Please, enough with the 'you paid, now shut up' thing. Yes, we've all paid, and I do agree that it doesn't give us a right to ask for anything, but it doesn't mean we can't talk about things we think are wrong.

Personally, I'm merely expression my feelings about this game, and hope that eventually Scavier hear what a lot of people have been saying for a lot of time and change their weird working methods.

I just would have thought people would have got the message after so many years, no amount of discussion will change anything, Scawen has a way of working that, while unarthodox, works very well for him, and I doubt that'll change.

Talk about it till you are all blue in the face, it ain't gonna change jack.

[boosterfire]

I just would have thought people would have got the message after so many years, no amount of discussion will change anything, Scawen has a way of working that, while unarthodox, works very well for him, and I doubt that'll change.

Talk about it till you are all blue in the face, it ain't gonna change jack.

It might work well for him, but it's probably another thing for his finances, especially on the long term. Do you honestly think that LFS can go on forever, at this rhythm of development, and be profitable until the end of time? At some point, either people will lose interest (because it'll be so outdated on certain aspects, i.e. graphics), or it won't be profitable enough for them, which hopefully might bring them to realize that they work too slowly to keep the interest and expectation up.

Why do you think people such as Tweaker have left these boards and have 'lfs is dead' in their signatures?

[Biohazard]

whether scawen changes his way of working or not - it's irrelevant to me.
still, lfs somehow misses some motivation. lack of updates and content just are not enough to keep the consumers motivated and totally confident.

[bandaid]

whether scawen changes his way of working or not - it's irrelevant to me.
still, lfs somehow misses some motivation. lack of updates and content just are not enough to keep the consumers motivated and totally confident.

Very true.

If iRacing was free/cheaper, Scavier would be in a whole world of trouble.

I still love LFS. :thumb:

[unseen]

For what it`s worth, I finally hit the limit with LFS a while back.

Although I`ve never been much of a racer online, I did race a lot offline, and completed so many laps while working on track textures, cockpits, and skins that I got ridiculously bored going round the same tracks and corners over and over again.

The lack of new content was to me one of the main factors, as well as the limited ability to mod the game (and yes, I know modding isn`t the point, but it is a large part of keeping old games fresh). Lack of such simple things that have been in other games for a long, long time, like simple bump and specular mapping is just annoying.

The fact that now, when I couldn`t buy a single core machine even on the lowest budget, there is still no support for using multi-core processors is just silly. It`s something that needs to go in now, not any later.

Long term annoyances like those damn skyrocket barriers seem no closer to changing, and having another new car is just not any sort of improvement until major problems like that are out of the way.

I`d love to have fun again in LFS, and I did love making skins, textures etc for the community here, but I just can`t see it happening again any time soon, which to me is the sad part.

[Zen321]

I totally agree with the picture of LFS with the smileys. This is the normal cycle-rule of every firm/product :
- Launched --> surprise!
- First years --> surprise turns into more interest --> the firm is growing up
- Middle years --> We have have reached the top of the growth curve --> stagnation
- Some years after --> The products interest fewer and fewer people --> no more growth, and even recession
- Suddenly --> Bankruptcy!

This is the standard scenario if the firm/product does not adapt to the market and the context. This is not what I wish to LFS, as it is a software that I enjoy very much.
Smaller and smaller upgrades let the firm/product waive around the deadlind of the firm's recession. While completely new upgrades make the firm/product goes into another "Surprise!" stage, throwing the deadline a couple of years away again.

To have a taste of small upgrades : look at the cars. Eventually, some model will just die (look at the Viper, sadly :( ), while the Corolla model have been on the market since the end of the 70's (almost 30 years) and I honestly don't know why :shrug:).
However, and hopefully, while you can't improve drastically a car model because you have some requirements, LFS possesses unlimited possibilities.

Compared to other games or software, what we don't have in LFS' universe is greater than what we have already. So we can figure out easily that the improvements are non restricted.

If the devs read my post, I must precise that what I am about to say must not be taken personally. I love the work you do, and the only thing I would say is "Keep up the good work". The only thing that limits Live For Speed at the moment is its development process. The first "mistake" I would say is that there is a lack of communication between the developpers and the community.
While many racers might think the model of communication should be "devs <-/-> subscribers" (meaning that they don't belong in the same world), I prefer to think that "devs <==> subscribers". Whether we like it or not, we share a common thing, which is LFS itself. And since Live For Speed require its community to spread the word and do some publicity, the devs need us as much as we do need them. If LFS gets advertisely-autonomous, then we won't have any right to complain/state something because the devs will not need us anymore.
However, the implied threat of spreading a bad word is far more powerful than spreading a good word (people tend to like and remember negative things only :p ). That is why more communication between the devs and the community, in both ways (announcements and surveys), would help to get the mood better. (By the way, the lack of news seems to be the reason why people are bitter here : they search the forum looking for hope, and because there is not really, they start bitching about everyone to get their daily dose of adrenaline :p)

The second thing that restricts LFS is the team. Don't get me wrong, Mr Scavier, I am not saying that you do a bad job (as if I can repeat, I am satisfied everytime LFS comes up with a new patch), but your team and your way of working could acheive bigger things. For instance, increasing the team will either lead to closer releases, or more content in each release. Don't take me bad, especially Scawen, as I well know that it is very hard to manage the beginning of the fatherhood and our own company, and you can't be blamed about anything. I can feel that Live For Speed is calling us to breathe fresh air by having new people working on it, so as to expand its possibilities. But I am not worried, as I am sure that Scavier, event if it is not in their mind now, will figure out sooner or later that they need to increase the number of programmers/modellers/web-developpers and will do the right choice.

You care about your baby (LFS - as I'm sure you care a lot about your RL baby ;) ) more than us, subscribers, will ever do, that is why I know you won't let it die or you won't let people call it dead, and make the right choices according to your sense of logic and the *free (may I need to precise that we are willing to help you avoid paying a consultant :p)* advices the community who appreciate your work can give you ;)

Please keep up the good work Scavier, come up with the best patch ever for december/january, and blow our mind ;).

[JasonJ]

repeat
Shorlty after patches are released::lovies3d::lovies3d: :lovies3d::lovies3d::lovies3d:


Shortly before patches are released::arge::arge::arge::arge::arge::arge:

end repeat


I got my 24 pound worth. +1 million and free candy

[Gener_AL (UK)]

Really unsure about this poll and what to decide.
So for now im not going to choose an option.
I think Zen321 sums up my hopes & fears.

[spankmeyer]

-1 for more babies.



Sorry. :shy:

[HVS5b]

Bottomline, it (LFS) is what it is, it has been the same for many years, and is not going to change.

They don't owe anyone anything, all we have ever paid for is S2 in the state it was when we paid for it, anything on top of that is a bonus.

People can bleat on till they are blue in the face about lack of development, lack of communication, but the fact is, thats the way it is.

It boils down to like it, or lump it, play it, don't play, no one really cares if joe bloggs is bored, or wants X or Y, play it till you are bored, then go do something else, LFS is, and always will carry on the same no matter who does or doesn't play it any more.

Word :thumb:

Saved me posting that!

[UncleBenny]

Another problem is that people actually stop playing between patches. You hear a lot of: "I'm waiting for the next patch to play again". That problem would mostly be avoided if patches were closer to each other, and be soothed even more if we knew how the progress was going. Scavier kind of fails at creating expectation.

I agree with this. I am not complaining about the lack of patches because I do realize how complex LFS has become and how much work it takes one guy to put new features in, but I think releasing one feature at a time rather than getting 3-4 things done in one bigger patch would work out better. People leaving between patches does seem to be an issue and I think more frequent small patches would keep them more interested than throwing a couple different features at them at once a couple times a year.

[510N3D]

people would come and go no matter how frequently patches would be released. On the contrary, some people even would get fed up by new stuff beeing released on a more frequent basis and create simular threads like this one (or worse). In the end, its not the responsibility of the developers to take care of their community (in this particulary aspect) which is an inpossible task anyway if you'd ask me. They are doing their thing and sharing it for a small amount of money. They made it clear numerous times how development is beeing taken care of and it should be an obvious fact that with basically just three people involved at the core, development is going to be comparably slow (and much more effective compared to bigger projects if you'd ask me). I've made my point about this matter several times in the past and im bored of it somehow.... These kind of threads, regardless the intention behind it will always turn up, regardless the progress of development.

Hoping for the best and prepared for the rest.

[zeugnimod]

Bottomline, it (LFS) is what it is, it has been the same for many years, and is not going to change.

They don't owe anyone anything, all we have ever paid for is S2 in the state it was when we paid for it, anything on top of that is a bonus.

People can bleat on till they are blue in the face about lack of development, lack of communication, but the fact is, thats the way it is.

It boils down to like it, or lump it, play it, don't play, no one really cares if joe bloggs is bored, or wants X or Y, play it till you are bored, then go do something else, LFS is, and always will carry on the same no matter who does or doesn't play it any more.

This should be posted as the 2nd post in every thread like this. :thumb:

Is it just me or is this thread more civilized than most other threads on this matter, though?

[Dj-Aeri]

I need one of this many years ago...

http://www.redlineblog.com/autos/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/tg-stelvio-pass-north-ramp.jpg

And engine/brakes temperature...

[510N3D]

This should be posted as the 2nd post in every thread like this. :thumb:

Is it just me or is this thread more civilized than most other threads on this matter, though?


im supprised that i actually agree with you at something. And no, you're not alone. :D

[farcar]

Bottomline, it (LFS) is what it is, it has been the same for many years, and is not going to change.

I would argue that LFS has 'changed' over the years with lower frequency of patch releases. Maybe that's why the complaints are louder? :shrug:

For the record, I rarely play LFS at the moment because of this stagnation. I'm still a huge, huge fan, but think that the development cycle needs to be sped up for it's long term survival. If the next patch doesn't have significant new content and enhancements, or there is another huge gap between patches I fear that things will really begin to drop off in terms of online server populations etc.

Let's hope it turns out OK!

[510N3D]

I would argue that LFS has 'changed' over the years with lower frequency of patch releases. Maybe that's why the complaints are louder? :shrug:

For the record, I rarely play LFS at the moment because of this stagnation. I'm still a huge, huge fan, but think that the development cycle needs to be sped up for it's long term survival. If the next patch doesn't have significant new content and enhancements, or there is another huge gap between patches I fear that things will really begin to drop off in terms of online server populations etc.

Let's hope it turns out OK!

Im afraid that you haven't considered the expositional factor of such a project and this is why i strongly disagree with your first assumption/ statement. About the second part, regarding "online server populations", i really haven't seen any drop in that respect, at least according to my personal observation. Maybe Victor could offer a proper graph which should show about a thousand (give or take) people each day for the past couple of years (excluding major patch cycles that is). However, please read my previous comment if you haven't already and take it into consideration.

[farcar]

Im afraid that you haven't considered the expositional factor of such a project...

Yes I have.

I was merely stating a fact; that patches have become less frequent over time. I understand that there are reasons behind this.
The fact that there are valid reasons for slower development output, doesn't solve the problem though.

In regards to server populations, I don't have any numbers to show. It's just that from Australia I can never seem to find decently populated local race servers.
I never used to have such problems.

[510N3D]

Yes I have.

I was merely stating a fact; that patches have become less frequent over time. I understand that there are reasons behind this.
The fact that there are valid reasons for slower development output, doesn't solve the problem though.

In regards to server populations, I don't have any numbers to show. It's just that from Australia I can never seem to find decently populated local race servers.
I never used to have such problems.

In case you really understood the reasons behind it you should know what to expect (wishfulness ftw) :thumb:. And this is why im unable to see a problem somehow but perhaps you could try to enlighten me in that respect (once again).

About server populations once again, i think that anyone that is not living within the european time zones has got a problem, every now and then, finding a proper server to play at. But since im actually living in europe, im of course just guessing here.

[farcar]

In case you really understood the reasons behind it you should know what to expect (wishfulness ftw) :thumb:. And this is why im unable to see a problem somehow but perhaps you could try to enlighten me in that respect (once again).

So we both agree that the development cycle is slowing.
You don't see a problem with this which is cool with me. No skin off my nose.
My opinion on the other hand is that the slowing development cycle will eventually lead to a decline in this great simulator through a slower uptake, and existing racers leaving. Enlightened? :D

In regards to wishful thinking, the solutions to the (imho) 'problem' would be more developers or more development hours from Eric and Victor. I'm assuming Victor and Eric aren't working full time on LFS... Clearly these decisions are made by them based on their desires (do they want to spend more hours), and economic feasability (will they make more money?). They're none of my business, but being a fan, I do think about these things.

About server populations once again, i think that anyone that is not living within the european time zones has got a problem, every now and then, finding a proper server to play at. But since im actually living in europe, im of course just guessing here.

I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but I will...
A couple of years ago, I had no problems finding a reasonably well populated pickup race server in Australia. In the last 6-12 months I have had lots of problems finding a reasonably well populated pickup race server in Australia.
So it's not living outside Europe I'm referring to, it's a perceived decline in numbers on Australian servers

[510N3D]

So we both agree that the development cycle is slowing.

No doubt about it. But both of us are only seeing it from a limited point of view. (going into detail about that soon within this reply)

My opinion on the other hand is that the slowing development cycle will eventually lead to a decline in this great simulator through a slower uptake, and existing racers leaving. Enlightened? :D

Enlightened? Well slightly. ;) "Eventually" is the keyword and i guess that anyone that once fell in love with LFS and understood its way of development will respect it, stick to it and return to it. Everyone else is just having fun (within a short period of time perhaps) or haven't got what i've just mentioned above.

In regards to wishful thinking, the solutions to the (imho) 'problem' would be more developers or more development hours from Eric and Victor. I'm assuming Victor and Eric aren't working full time on LFS... Clearly these decisions are made by them based on their desires (do they want to spend more hours), and economic feasability (will they make more money?). They're none of my business, but being a fan, I do think about these things.

Since you're basically just assuming here (as stated) i'll partly skip that part. All i could offer are assumtions as well and according to my observations, Victor has been quite active (LFSW hotlap analyzer and several supportive forum avtivities regarding leagues and so on)

Not sure about Eric after all. Im hoping for the best and im prepared for the rest. Period(.) ;)

Regarding Scawen, im sure he's got a handful of stuff on the "to do list" (as same as Victor and Eric i guess) and since they ain't telling us anything (for several reasons (excluding the Scirocco thingy)) they're doing, either way regarding development i guess its fair to say that assuming that they are inactive or anything in that respect is...respectless or simple down to a lack of informations. (if i made myself clear this way ^^)



I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but I will...
A couple of years ago, I had no problems finding a reasonably well populated pickup race server in Australia. In the last 6-12 months I have had lots of problems finding a reasonably well populated pickup race server in Australia.
So it's not living outside Europe I'm referring to, it's a perceived decline in numbers on Australian servers

Alright, fair enough, i was just guessing here and not really having any evidence at hand to prove anything, either way. However, it could be a sight but certainly not a proof regarding the actual matter, right?

:shrug:

(Im not a fanboy (open for any (valid) inputs), i just love LFS and learned to respect it and the way it's beeing developed)

[Bandit77]

They are doing their thing and sharing it for a small amount of money.

Oooohhhh... DON'T say this. It depends a lot on how you look at it, and therefore it's probably also a neglected aspect in the debate if everything with the development is alright.

Example:

YOU joined in the very beginning, probably paid for S1 and enjoyed a physics engine that was superior to all other games for a while. Then you paid for S2 and had some more content. The superior "gameplay" was reason enough to overlook the things other games were better at (i.e. graphics, sound). It was an ok price at that time.
From then on your LFS was updated a bit now and then which was an added bonus considering the fact that a few years back the original S2 probably was almost up to date.
Bottom line, YOU've had a lot of product for the price YOU paid.

For the ones who bought S2 just a couple of weeks ago the reality looks a bit different. They paid the same price as you did years ago for a product that is only a tiny bit better than its predecessor... it actually IS its patched up predecessor. For them it's probably not an ok price anymore if things stay as they are. Sure, some don't think about this because it's only 24£ and it's under there "think before you buy"- or "thoughts on price/performance"-threshold.

An analogy: Buying S2 now is like buying a 2004 PC that has been modded to 2006 specs for the price of 2006... and then you wait for some free updates the salesman implied.

Or you buy Microsoft Flightsimulator 2002 heavily 'patched' to be something like FS2004 for the price of FS2004 a couple of months after its release, NOW. Great deal, hu? :thumb:


Wow, I didn't want this to get so long.

[Zen321]

*Just look at the part about updates*

Well actually, I think that the main reason people buy Live For Speed is for its awesome physics engine. And I actually like the fact that as Scawen said "LFS is meant to be a racing simulator, not a screenshot generator".
I am running on a computer (only 1 year old though), that is completely outdated to nowadays graphics in game, and I like the fact that LFS provides an reasonably fast graphic experience.

However, I tend to agree about the update ratio/price, which is favorable to the "oldtimers".
As some one posted above, some releases every now and then would be greatly appreciated.

I wish to say even once more that more communication is what we need between the LFS developpers and us. This will prevent this kind of threads to appear, and demotivation to grow up.
Someone should think about an interview, shouldn't they ?

[zeugnimod]

Someone should think about an interview, shouldn't they ?

An interview after that we wouldn't know anything more than we do now. ;)

If the devs don't want to say anything about progress, they won't. They will if they consider it the right time and they won't let others force them to do so. It has always been like that and that is the right way.

I don't get about what bigger communication you are speaking. The bigger communication alwys started with the release of the first test patch where the users could find bugs etc. Before the release of a test patch Scawen was always very quiet.

[Zen321]

An interview after that we wouldn't know anything more than we do now. ;)

If the devs don't want to say anything about progress, they won't. They will if they consider it the right time and they won't let others force them to do so. It has always been like that and that is the right way.

I don't get about what bigger communication you are speaking. The bigger communication alwys started with the release of the first test patch where the users could find bugs etc. Before the release of a test patch Scawen was always very quiet.

I mean by that at least tell us a list of precise things they are working on. Scawen once posted a "to-do list" with a lot of features. We do not know what will be in the next patch. And zeug, for me, a test patch is the patch itself. There are some bugs that will be removed, but not the future content itself. So basically, once he tells us what is in the testpatch, he tells what will be in the patch (with a test period of around 2 weeks, but since we have the same content, then it is the same in my mind).

A post/announcement every now and then saying : "Hey what's up guys ? We have finished the Scirocco model, and halfway through a better collision system, thanks for being patient ! ;)" would be greatly appreciated.
We have no communication, so even this little post (which takes 4 mins maximum to write/read/edit/reread/press post), would make a big difference, instead of saying "Hey, there will be a new car soon! in LFS", and then keep being silent for more than three monthes. At least, for the FBM, they announced it a couple of weeks before its release, as long as with the CMX viewer tool. We could expect the same for the Scirocco, but I suspect the dev team being held hostages by a group of crazy penguin terrorist somewhere in Antartica to give no news at all.

[zeugnimod]

...

Did you read my post? :scratchch

It's fine that you want progress reports but it won't happen. No amount of begging posts is going to change that.

[VoiD]

A post/announcement every now and then saying : "Hey what's up guys ? We have finished the Scirocco model, and halfway through a better collision system, thanks for being patient ! ;)" would be greatly appreciated.


Oh, I can see what will happen then. Most users will ask (demand) to release the new stuff shortly after the news...! :really:

Scirocco is finished..? "Release it now, it´s done!"

Tweaked collision-physics..? "Release it now, it´s better!"

Some other minor incompatible features ready for release or done..? "Release it now, I like to do all my wr´s again...!"

No, thanks..

[Bandit77]

Well actually, I think that the main reason people buy Live For Speed is for its awesome physics engine. And I actually like the fact that as Scawen said "LFS is meant to be a racing simulator, not a screenshot generator".

I totally agree. And, honestly, I even like LFS graphics for some reason (I totally hated NFSU(2) graphics. Overkill. Sensory overload).
It's just the price/content thing. But you totally got me there.


A post/announcement every now and then saying : "Hey what's up guys ? We have finished the Scirocco model, and halfway through a better collision system, thanks for being patient ! ;)" would be greatly appreciated.

Absolutely. But I have some ugly suspicion why it's not done...

Oh, I can see what will happen then. Most users will ask (demand) to release the new stuff shortly after the news...! :really:

If that's the only downside...

[zeugnimod]

If that's the only downside...

That is a VERY big downside. :really:

Would you be happy if you say something and people lay words into your mouth to put you under pressure? It already happened in the past (it's even happening now, some people are talking about a delayed release of the Scirocco when the devs actually very clearly said that it will take some time until it is released) and is probably the reason why we don't get these progress reports.

That is a downside that would probably make the devs stop working on LFS, IMO.

[obsolum]

... instead of saying "Hey, there will be a new car soon! in LFS", and then keep being silent for more than three monthes.

Uhm, Scawen specifically said that the Sirocco would not be released anytime soon and that we would do best to just forget about it for the time being :really:

You see, this is a perfect example of why the devs prefer not to say anything. No matter what they say or how precise they try to be in their statements, people will always twist and turn their words around.

[Kancel]

what i feel is, the devs are working under an isolated environment, unaware of the competitions that are going to come up ahead, and somehow failed to keep their product competitive, either the speed or the way they are doing it.

i bet nobody here wanna see LFS die off, including the devs, everyone here and myself, but i really want to say is "LFS will eventually die off" what we are going to see if the development process keeps on like now. Nobody here kills LFS, it is the market that doing the job. LFS is an unfinished and underdevelopent product for sure, but that doesnt immunized itself from all types of competition, LFS is one of the product in the game market. competition doesnt just come from another good/great racing sim, instead all games and other alternatives that we can spend our spare time on are competition forces. u cant ignore the competition by just self lying and giving excuses like "oh, this is the way we do things", "we are happy with what we are doing now". i believe the devs dont want to see their own son dying, so i hope smthing will be done.

[Hyperactive]

Replace 2006 with 2007/2008 and you have progress reports for as long as you can think of:
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=13882

[Bandit77]

whole post



Wow. :thumbsup:

Beautifully put. Couldn't agree more.

[boosterfire]

Oh, I don't think Scavier give a crap if their product is competitive or not. Even if everybody left and they had to do something else to live, they would probably want to keep working on it part-time or something. Eventually, I believe a final version of LFS will exist. The question is when, and what other stuff will be on the market at that point.

Currently, LFS 'survives' because there's nothing quite the same. Although iRacing has probably taken quite a lot of racers from LFS, the price of it and its 'this ain't a game folks' philosophy that's much harder than LFS's are drawbacks that make a lot of people want to stick to LFS. Besides, there are just people that love LFS and won't let it go (fanboiz :shy:).

So you could say that the sole reason why LFS is still profitable is because it's a racing simulator, and that there's not a lot of competition out there. Again, I've said this a lot, but if a well known game maker decide to do a racing sim with the goal of beating LFS, it would be incredibly easy to do so.

[sinbad]

Simple fact is, as long as they keep selling enough S2 licenses to be "content" with the revenue that provides, they are not going to be in ANY hurry to release S3 (which, let's face it, is the only way we'll get any significant volume of new content).

Unless we see a sudden rush of activity or communication or hype of a forthcoming patch/update/S3 alpha plan or similar, then we can assume they are still happy with the revenue from S2, and fair play to them.
If I were them I'd probably be doing exactly the same thing for a couple of reasons (just off the top of my head):
- S2 is a more attractive initial purchase price than S3 will be for a newcomer.
which has the additional benefit -
- The more people that buy S2, the more will be likely to buy S3.
- I could then just work at my leisure with zero stress except that which I put myself under, and let money roll in. Prepare things for when sales begin to drop off and then re-ignite interest when they do.

[S14 DRIFT]

I need one of this many years ago...

http://www.redlineblog.com/autos/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/tg-stelvio-pass-north-ramp.jpg

And engine/brakes temperature...

Both of which are already in the suggested improvements log :)

[Bandit77]

...


You probably hit the nail on its head. And that's one of the reasons I sometimes feel a bit (really only a bit) short-changed... and I almost get sick of comments along the lines of "we have to be thankful to the holy trinity for what we've got" (exaggeration... but it's not that easy to hit the right degree in a foreign language ;) )

[ACCAkut]

Both of which are already in the suggested improvements log :)

yeah, but for how many years already?:shrug:

[gezmoor]

Much as I think LFS is rewarding to play and I don't begrudge a single penny I paid for it, I still feel that eventually it will just fade away and die.

Why? well most products do ultimately of course, but also because I don't feel it's being suficiently marketed to keep the influx of new users required to really make it become a solid final product. It's all well and good the devs saying they are happy with the pace of development but ultimately it's just too slow getting to final product status IMO. If it remains like this, eventually it's current user base will just get bored and move on, (new sims are being released all the time), and the devs will loose their revenue stream and development will ultimately grind to a halt.

That said, IF the devs manage to pull off a release of a final product in the near future that gets great reviews, they may well finally hit the jackpot and see sales rocket.

But, all products have their day and then fade away and even if LFS does manage to be a commercial success, ultimately that will happen to LFS too.

[zeugnimod]

because I don't feel it's being suficiently marketed to keep the influx of new users required to really make it become a solid final product.

The devs said that they don't want to actively market LFS before it is finished, IIRC.

[sinbad]

Much as I think LFS is rewarding to play and I don't begrudge a single penny I paid for it, I still feel that eventually it will just fade away and die.

Why? well most products do ultimately of course, but also because I don't feel it's being suficiently marketed to keep the influx of new users required to really make it become a solid final product. It's all well and good the devs saying they are happy with the pace of development but ultimately it's just too slow getting to final product status IMO. If it remains like this, eventually it's current user base will just get bored and move on, (new sims are being released all the time), and the devs will loose their revenue stream and development will ultimately grind to a halt.

That said, IF the devs manage to pull off a release of a final product in the near future that gets great reviews, they may well finally hit the jackpot and see sales rocket.

But, all products have their day and then fade away and even if LFS does manage to be a commercial success, ultimately that will happen to LFS too.

I seriously doubt that the devs would just stop working, release a patch which only changes the name from Alpha to Final so nobody can complain and say "no more LFS coming".
There's a cash cow waiting to be milked. They could forget physics and code stuff and "just" release 3 or 4 new track environments, 5 or so new cars and boom, big payday, even it were just 10% of S2 license holders upgrading, but I imagine the real figure could be a lot higher. They would be absolutely crazy, having come this far, to not get what they can from it.

I don't fear for the future of LFS, but I'm pretty damn tired of waiting for updates, so I don't any more. It's blatantly obvious they're not in a hurry to provide me with nice shiny new things :)
We're already basically at an environments per year ratio of 1:1, productivity on a scale which leaves me on tenterhooks. Stuff flying thick and fast, you never know what's coming and when. It's a rush.

[S14 DRIFT]

It should be common knowledge now that the dev's DO NOT RUSH anything, and have said manyatimes that they're in no rush to get <feature> out.

Just don't mention us cows... :hide:

Anyway! Back on topic, they're probbably working on some new features to compliment the Scirroco, but who is to say? Either way, all these people waiting around are going to be dissapointed because no-one can rush the Devs' work. :razz:

[gezmoor]

The devs said that they don't want to actively market LFS before it is finished, IIRC.


Well then it's a catch 22 situation. Without new people becoming aware of its existence LFS will not continue to bring in enough money to continue its development. Without development, ulitmately it won't attract enough new people who want to pay for it as it slowly becomes more and more dated compared with modern games on the market.

Without development, (eventually), you get no revenue stream, without revenue you get no development. :shrug:

Point being, even what few competitors LFS has are catching up in the areas that LFS always had the advantage, (ie the physics). Once other sims surpass LFS in terms of physics, there is only so far that being "cheap" will attract people to the game as it continues to get dated compared to the competition. Put it this way, would you pay for LFS if it had CGA graphics even if it did have a perfect physics model? I would suggest only a very small minority of people would, (even of those interested in driving sims), let alone the general game playing public.

[Zen321]

Part about graphics.

As I said before, the graphics-addicted are not the market LFS aims for. Live For Speed aims for racing enthusiasts. That is why if Live For Speed improved drastically its graphics engine, it would not change much the increase in subscribers nor would it make the racers happy, because it is a "formal" upgrade, not a "fondamental" upgrade.

It is true that when you change the packaging of a product, it creates some enthusiams, but when people realize that they are not that happier with the package (everywhere in the world but the US :p ), they come back in the same state they were in.

The fondamental upgrades Live For Speed needs are physics and content. The physics are pretty decent now, but adding new content would definetely buy the devs some more time to work on the physics. For instance, an original venue (narrow, twisty track/kart track/etc), with the car that is the best for it (LMP or WRC or go-kart), would make racers focus on it, and not on the lack of development.

LFs is not gonna change because it has never changed

Maybe it has never changed, but why shouldn't it ? If you read carefully my post about the lifespan of a firm/product, you'll see that change isn't only beneficial, it is mandatory for the healthy life of a firm/product. LFS gets changes pretty often and this results with a boost of subscriptions that day. However, if the change was made about the team (like an increase in number), this would work as an investment : Scavier might sacrifice a bit of its quality of work environment, but on the other hand, LFS would develop faster and Scavier will acheive faster their goals and their dream to make LFS the best racing simulator ever.

[S14 DRIFT]

Scavier have a goal. That means not rushing to get piss poor releases out early, which is what would happen if they got extra 'help'. It would become rFactor and that is a big no no.

[richo]

Oooohhhh... DON'T say this. It depends a lot on how you look at it, and therefore it's probably also a neglected aspect in the debate if everything with the development is alright.

Example:

YOU joined in the very beginning, probably paid for S1 and enjoyed a physics engine that was superior to all other games for a while. Then you paid for S2 and had some more content. The superior "gameplay" was reason enough to overlook the things other games were better at (i.e. graphics, sound). It was an ok price at that time.
From then on your LFS was updated a bit now and then which was an added bonus considering the fact that a few years back the original S2 probably was almost up to date.
Bottom line, YOU've had a lot of product for the price YOU paid.

For the ones who bought S2 just a couple of weeks ago the reality looks a bit different. They paid the same price as you did years ago for a product that is only a tiny bit better than its predecessor... it actually IS its patched up predecessor. For them it's probably not an ok price anymore if things stay as they are. Sure, some don't think about this because it's only 24£ and it's under there "think before you buy"- or "thoughts on price/performance"-threshold.

An analogy: Buying S2 now is like buying a 2004 PC that has been modded to 2006 specs for the price of 2006... and then you wait for some free updates the salesman implied.

Or you buy Microsoft Flightsimulator 2002 heavily 'patched' to be something like FS2004 for the price of FS2004 a couple of months after its release, NOW. Great deal, hu? :thumb:


Wow, I didn't want this to get so long.


He has a point except its 2008 and the content is still 2004 for the most part

[zeugnimod]

Maybe it has never changed, but why shouldn't it ? If you read carefully my post about the lifespan of a firm/product, you'll see that change isn't only beneficial, it is mandatory for the healthy life of a firm/product. LFS gets changes pretty often and this results with a boost of subscriptions that day. However, if the change was made about the team (like an increase in number), this would work as an investment : Scavier might sacrifice a bit of its quality of work environment, but on the other hand, LFS would develop faster and Scavier will acheive faster their goals and their dream to make LFS the best racing simulator ever.

Could you please don't misquote me? I never said the text in your quote. :really:

I said the fact that the devs don't publish regular progress reports will probably never change.

[Enforcer-J]

Dead

[Nadeo4441]

Everyday when i type www.lfsforum.net to the browser, i hope that i will see the test patch forum under lfs programmer forum. But nothing new for about half year now. :shrug:

[Gills4life]

Would be nice to hear about something happening behind the scenes but at the moment I have a ps3 and fallout3 to keep me content until there is anything new.

[S14 DRIFT]

Everyday when i type www.lfsforum.net (http://www.lfsforum.net) to the browser, i hope that i will see the test patch forum under lfs programmer forum. But nothing new for about half year now. :shrug:

Just enjoy the game, and take it day by day. When something is ready, it'll be here. No point rushing to get substandard work out early. I'd rather wait and get good quality, bug free stuff :)

[ATC Quicksilver]

I seem to remember getting a progress update, they mentioned something about a car I think. My memory is bad, it was ages ago, at least a few weeks.

[NightShift]

The more I think about the LFS business model, and the more it looks to me like it doesn't make too much sense to give out a lot of new content when the financial payoff isn't all that high.

Maybe the scavier guys already have a number of unreleased cars and tracks waiting to see the light, and more under development?

S2 might be possibly just traveling through one of those sidetracks (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=239869#post239869), with incremental updates and some bonus new content (e.g. FBM and BF1) trickling down so people don't think it's dead. When the engine reaches a point that they are satisfied with, they will bump the version number and release S3, along with the bunch of new stuff.

It may sound like wishful thinking but fact is, I'm a newcomer to LFS and pretty much anything is new to me, what I really want is engine upgrades to make it more life like (physics and FFB improvements most importantly).

So those were my 2 €cents ;)

[Shotglass]

im guessing were well into week 2
http://www.dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/30000/0000/200/30227/30227.strip.sunday.gif

[S14 DRIFT]

I seem to remember getting a progress update, they mentioned something about a car I think. My memory is bad, it was ages ago, at least a few weeks.

Hahah, more than a few weeks mater. Try a couple of months. :x

It doesn't help that the thread discussing it was closed, if you remember it got to "quite alot of posts" in a very short time. :D

[Glenn67]

It doesn't help that the thread discussing it was closed, if you remember it got to "quite alot of posts" in a very short time. :D

And that right there is the most likely reason we don't see more progress reports :scratchch

[Macfox]

Like so many here... loved the game, but the writing is on the wall. :shrug: I've been following the scene and playing the game since its inception. LFS has only held it's niche, due to lack of better alternatives. While no other game (IMHO) beats LFS in all areas, there are many that do a lot better at individual facets and it will only be a matter of time where we see an LFS killer.

If we've learnt anything over the history of the LFS, it's the correlation between dev's reports and the significance of the update. Sadly this is a case of "No news, is bad news".

Given the major release cycles are around 2 years, even a massive update is unlikely to carry enough community momentum to see the light of S3.

The community has already seen the bulk of prominent long time LFS advocates leave for the lack of progress /declining interests and if it wasn't for these kinds of threads or the plethora of feature requests from noobs, it would be almost dead quiet on these forums.

I hope the dev's see that LFS is running on the smell of an oily rag and something has to change now, be it their approach to community engagement, expanding developer numbers or opening LFS up to third party content.:schwitz:

[zeugnimod]

if it wasn't for these kinds of threads or the plethora of feature requests from noobs, it would be almost dead quiet on these forums.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the general forum activity, tbh. You may not like the quality and content of the posts but to say that the forum is almost dead is a big exaggeration.

[madmat28]

With summer being gone, dark and rainy days coming up to stay for quite a while I started to re-discover LFS just last week.
To spice things up I bought a new G25 - back on track.

I like LFS the way it is - perfect for occasional racing and a semi-professional career alike.
And I do like the approach to not focus on shiny bling bling nfs-style graphics, real cars or real race tracks and to put everything into racing.
As soon as you start implementing things like real cars you will have tons of car forum-powered experts claiming:

"Ouch - major ****up - the ´98 911 steering wheel was covered with hand crafted crocodile leather instead of penguin feathers like you did it..."

Conversation is a nice thing.
Smart people are nice too.
But once you started it you will inevitably get away from racing more and more and your racing sim would have to turn into a 100% accurate car database with GoogleEarth based, freely roamable racing tracks / cities - duh - and shopping centres of course, where people would by hats, sunglasses and helmets with their nicknames on it...

As much as I´d love to take a LFS-powered C06 to a LFS-rendered Nordschleife, that´s not gonna happen.
And left with the choice between a fully licensed FIA racing game with a so-so driving experience or a LFS as it is today - well, we all made that decision long time ago, right.
So I could happily forego w/o a real "Scirocco", I bet it eats lots of resources and manpower and hope VW did support the development somehow.

Punkt.

[Zen321]

Could you please don't misquote me? I never said the text in your quote. :really:

I said the fact that the devs don't publish regular progress reports will probably never change.

My bad zeugnimod, I think I have mistaken you for another guy. I will edit my previous post right away ;)

[Macfox]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the general forum activity, tbh. You may not like the quality and content of the posts but to say that the forum is almost dead is a big exaggeration.

Compared to RSC days, it's very stagnant. Community engagement is non-existent and the future of LFS development is foggy at best. As such, there's very little positives that can be drawn from this situation. All indicators (participation, new players, and releases) are certainly at record lows.

I guess it all depends on individual perspective and how long you've been following LFS, but as a long time player/observer, it's very disappointing.

[Bandit77]

So I could happily forego w/o a real "Scirocco", I bet it eats lots of resources and manpower and hope VW did support the development somehow.

Punkt.


Sssse Scirocco in yoah gehm will etttrrrect eh lottt of new cusssstummaz... sssset's enough suppoat frumm owa side. :razz:


... or they paid scavier so much they don't even have to care about LFS and customers anymore.

[510N3D]

~snip~

I guess observer really hits the nail right on the head. :shrug:

[hrtburnout]

I guess observer really hits the nail right on the head.

I've been around for a while (lurking since early 2004), and I agree. :shrug:

[510N3D]

http://insidesimracing.blip.tv/file/705128?filename=Simracingtonight-VictorVaarvlardiganOfLFSInterview436.flv

Although (and regardless, according the the facts within) its rather old, im wondering whats so hard to understand in this interview.

[marcel.]

Hello!

My Answer is:
LFS will get content/major update within the next year.

A Couple of month´s ago,i was Really Pissed of from LFS.

No Statement from the Devs what´s up with the Development Status,why nothing new things come.

Then the VW Deal was Announced,and i understand why the Devs Doing all
to finish that First.

But i Wish the Devs Announce things like that Sooner,(that everybody understand why LFS "Stand Still")not a few Weeks bevore everybody see the Scirocco on the GC,and it Comes out why the Dev´s release nothing for Community.

I Think everybody would understand that this deal with VW was important,
but nothing to say whats up is shit,i think.

Today i Play not often Online,but i like Hotlapping,like my First day :).


i Hope you guys can Decode my English :schwitz: :hidesbehi


:D

[510N3D]

Ok here are just a few questions i’d like to ask into the “complainers” direction.


When did you joined LFS? (demo, forum, licenced right away, it doesnt matter)


Have you ever considered and even understood the facts that are basically responsible for the rather slow progress lately? (http://insidesimracing.blip.tv/file/705128?filename=Simracingtonight-VictorVaarvlardiganOfLFSInterview436.flv (http://insidesimracing.blip.tv/file/705128?filename=Simracingtonight-VictorVaarvlardiganOfLFSInterview436.flv)


When exactly did you got bored and perhaps, why in particulary?


Do you think that your motivation went away because you've used the game quite excessively or maybe even for the exact opposite reason?


Or do you think that it never really was your thing after all, no matter what kind of variation you’ve tried?


Was perhaps the lack or even the superior number of good competition the reason?


Have you tried a lot of variations the game offers or where you basically just doing one thing? (hotlapping, curcuit track/ rally racing, oval racing, cruising, drifting or drag racing et cetera (in no particular order ;))




Do you think that any significantly changes will bring you back to LFS or even bring back the joy from how it was at the beginning?


In addition to the previous one, do you think that it could be possible or must a requirement to reach a certain stage with LFS once again so that you can enjoy it just like in the beginning?


Do you have still faith in the project and ScaViEr, or do you just follow and believe into yours and/ or others assumptions?


Are these question of any help in any way, perhaps to bring more transparency into your personal situation and maybe even this particual problem?
You dont need to answer those questions here. But if you do, please be honest and try to stay objectively.




Personally, i have my ups and downs as well. But thats how it goes with everything in life and no moaning is going to change that, usually.

Whats wrong with giving a game time to grow and see how it evolves over the years? Whats wrong with the idea and concept of ScaViEr to take a path far beyond from where and for what everyone else is heading to/ for?

Maybe im wrong and exaggerate it, making this sim/ game bigger then it actually is or supposed to be and maybe its all true and ScaViEr gave up on it after all. But at least i can say that i've made use of this product in many ways, for a comparably really long time and as much as i could and wanted to, resulting in a lot of enjoyment, great races & companies and long lasting friendships.

Regarding to that, there is so much more then just LFS and after reading this and many other simular threads im under the impression that some people really aint got anywhere else to go ;)

[Gills4life]

Victor Vaarvlardigan ? :really:

Good interview :)

[bbman]

Victor Vaarvlardigan ? :really:

Good interview :)

'mericans... They have problems with names other than Smith or Doe... :razz:

[thisnameistaken]

The community has already seen the bulk of prominent long time LFS advocates leave for the lack of progress /declining interests

In LFS, as in life, people come and go. Older, wiser people die off but they are inevitably replaced by younger, more stupid people. While it's true that very few die-hards are out racing the RWD road cars now, there are lots of people driving them extremely slowly in cruise servers whilst spamming "I R TEH COP PUL OVAR U GOT BADL TIRE"

The forums are as busy as ever, lots of new posts each day, it's just they contain fewer words now, and those words are lifted verbatim from 4chan memes from five years ago, and they're often incorrectly spelt.

LFS is alive and, well...

[zeugnimod]

I guess observer really hits the nail right on the head. :shrug:

This time, I am agreeing with you. :D

[Macfox]

I guess observer really hits the nail right on the head. :shrug:

Why is this relevant to the discussion? FYI... It's a reflection of the lack of competition (servers+players) outside the EU.

Clearly you are the glass-half full type of person. That's fine. The picture isn't as dim for those within the EU time zone.

If it wasn't for the overwhelming sentiment that I share with others, I would probably dismiss it as just me. Clearly that isn't the case from reading this thread.

[Glenn67]

Why is this relevant to the discussion? FYI... It's a reflection of the lack of competition (servers+players) outside the EU.

This has at least in part to do with the majority of server operators in our area choosing to go down the path of private servers, which I grant you does keep out high ping users from wondering in but also makes it hard for newcomers to find their way into an Aussie LFS experience, thus over time contirbuting to a decline in local numbers.
This is an opinion I've held ever since getting LFS back in 2004 and why I've rarely join a passworded pickup racing server. You could also throw that back at the developers and say they have been too slow to setup local support but none the less it is a choice we have made for better or worse.

[bandaid]

This has at least in part to do with the majority of server operators in our area choosing to go down the path of private servers, which I grant you does keep out high ping users from wondering in but also makes it hard for newcomers to find their way into an Aussie LFS experience, thus over time contirbuting to a decline in local numbers.
This is an opinion I've held ever since getting LFS back in 2004 and why I've rarely join a passworded pickup racing server. You could also throw that back at the developers and say they have been too slow to setup local support but none the less it is a choice we have made for better or worse.

I have to say I was somewhat bemused when I finally stumbled across the many private Aussie servers.

Without knowing about them, I never saw them and probably missed out on a whole lot of racing. However I did find PRR and never looked back.

After I had bought S2 and logged on to find two servers with <300 ping, I almost pulled the pin right then and there. :tilt:

[Macfox]

That was possibly the case early on, but no so much of recent.

As a AU server provider, I get more players on the private servers than the public ones. Replicating popular EU server configs makes little difference.

Unless you join an AU league (often private), your unlikely to find any reasonable number of players on one server.

[Glenn67]

Macfox you are missing my point, that has created a culture of only driving on passworded servers which is still present today which in turn makes it less likely for new blood to find it's way into the system as bandaid aptly illustrates. Anyway I was just mentioning it as it is something that has bothered me for a long time :shrug:

[Macfox]

I share your sentiment. It's really a chicken/egg thing. We need players to return to the game to break that trend, but that won't happen until there's something to spark interest back in the game and hopefully it will then get to a critical mass, as in the EU.

[jbirdaspec]

I would like to hear some ideas thrown around about what we as LFS Community members can do to spark some more participation and enrolling new members to LFS.

I'll start:

In the Americas it seems to be mostly demo servers during prime time and while demo is great there seems to be not a lot of s1 and s2 races going on. I'm looking at getting a N. American server for ping attraction and keeping an admin around. Won't be a problem seeing as though I and a close racing buddy and I are one just about every night. FBM is a good class and seeing as how there are so many demo servers using this class on BL1 a step to other tracks would be nice change for some. I think there are a lot of drivers in the Americas that have S2, but end up in Demo for lack of S2 races going on. I also think there is a whole market of N. Americans that know nothing of LFS. Due the changing USD, LFS S2 is $15 dollars less then it was 10 or 11 months ago when I purchased it.

If anybody has experience with this or failed attempts or know of failed attempts I would like to know the details.

Jay

[Greboth]

N.American server stuff

To be perfectly honest whil you and others would make a small bit of difference it wouldn't change things too much. The reason I say this is because it seems the people who are complaining are on the basis of lfs is dead, no updates from the devs in terms of whats going on and no new patches etc.

[JANBAK]

I'd like to see ss soon as possible better interior graphic and improved sounds for all cars ;)

How much you think we have to wait for S3?

And ... what we could expect from S3?

[Electrik Kar]

Most interiors have already been recently updated, a few are still to come though. The new stuff isn't exactly up to 'next gen' level, but they're a lot better than the old ones, which were starting to make LFS look very aged. I find the new interiors are perfectly acceptable though.

What will appear in S3 is anyone's guess. I don't think we'll begin to see dynamic weather and track surfaces until S3. A focus on graphics perhaps, sound, more cars and tracks... I'll guess that S2 will be finalised before this time next year (the latest XMAS), so I don't think we'll be waiting that long before the first fruits of S3 begin to show themselves. It will be a very long time before S3 is done though (atleast as long as S2, perhaps twice as long! :D).

[510N3D]

Why is this relevant to the discussion?

Well i was just guessing upon the numbers i've got available from you, such as online milage and forum activity (post count). With that in mind and seeing that you've been here for a long time, some of your comments doesn't make any sense (for me) somehow, at least when it comes to terms like "community engagement" & "participation". Again, im just guessing here and im not going to investigate nor getting any more into detail since its indeed not relevant to the actual discussion.

On the contrary, have a look at the people complaining about LFS, most of em are here for about 1- 3 years (or less) and the few that are here for even longer just got bored for serveral other reasons and/ or are still unable to understand the idea behind LFS.

Anyhow, i hope that i could bring my standpoint across within this thread and im not going to continue since we are going in circles at some point, if not already.

[S14 DRIFT]

Most interiors have already been recently updated, a few are still to come though. The new stuff isn't exactly up to 'next gen' level, but they're a lot better than the old ones, which were starting to make LFS look very aged. I find the new interiors are perfectly acceptable though.

What will appear in S3 is anyone's guess. I don't think we'll begin to see dynamic weather and track surfaces until S3. A focus on graphics perhaps, sound, more cars and tracks... I'll guess that S2 will be finalised before this time next year (the latest XMAS), so I don't think we'll be waiting that long before the first fruits of S3 begin to show themselves. It will be a very long time before S3 is done though (atleast as long as S2, perhaps twice as long! :D).

Yes, the NEW interiors are ok. Especially the GTR cars, however the road cars are like.. ok.

What really needs doing are the LRF class, and just maybe an update from DX8 to DX9, obviously with a choice between the two for people with older computers.

A year to S2 final from now would just take the piss. It's been out for like 2 years already. It doesn't even take 3 years for some major games to be made, especially if they already have a running platform. Yes, they have bigger teams. But they also have much more work to do, cross platform porting, and the like.

[NightShift]

On the topic of community engagement, the number of new subscriptions to the board or the number of posts are really misleading indicators.

The board as it is now IMO gives a distorted image of the community, with people arguing over and over about the same issues, the newcomers playing the part of the passionate LFS'ers and oldtimers often showing up as sour assholes with no real involvement in LFS and whose main occupation is beating noobs to death with their sarcastic comments.

The casual user who's going to check the boards will steer clear of them thinking 'this is a bunch a manics', if he/she is going to stick with LFS is not because of the boards but because he/she likes LFS despite the boards. And the demo servers, which are also giving out a bad image of what online racing is like in LFS (just look at the number of new threads opened in the beginners' section on this topic alone)

I think that really, if there are new people joining LFS without having friends in it already, they have survived through an obstacle course. It'd be no wonder if this could also work as an adverse selection mechanism which as final effect leaves LFS mostly with spammers and wreckers.

TBH I believe the iRacing guys took a deep look at what LFS has built (both good and bad sides), not just because they wanted to differentiate their product but also because they were aware of the detrimental effect of some shortcomings on overall partecipation.

[Hyperactive]

The board as it is now IMO gives a distorted image of the community, with people arguing over and over about the same issues, the newcomers playing the part of the passionate LFS'ers and oldtimers often showing up as sour assholes with no real involvement in LFS and whose main occupation is beating noobs to death with their sarcastic comments.

Please don't refrain from posting examples.

[thisnameistaken]

The board as it is now IMO gives a distorted image of the community, with people arguing over and over about the same issues, the newcomers playing the part of the passionate LFS'ers and oldtimers often showing up as sour assholes with no real involvement in LFS and whose main occupation is beating noobs to death with their sarcastic comments.

Actually it's idiots who get the sarcastic comments, and there are plenty of well-established idiots around. Are you saying all noobs are idiots? Well I'm not surprised we don't get any new blood with attitudes like yours.

:p

[S14 DRIFT]

On the topic of community engagement, the number of new subscriptions to the board or the number of posts are really misleading indicators.

The board as it is now IMO gives a distorted image of the community, with people arguing over and over about the same issues, the newcomers playing the part of the passionate LFS'ers and oldtimers often showing up as sour assholes with no real involvement in LFS and whose main occupation is beating noobs to death with their sarcastic comments.

The casual user who's going to check the boards will steer clear of them thinking 'this is a bunch a manics', if he/she is going to stick with LFS is not because of the boards but because he/she likes LFS despite the boards. And the demo servers, which are also giving out a bad image of what online racing is like in LFS (just look at the number of new threads opened in the beginners' section on this topic alone)

I think that really, if there are new people joining LFS without having friends in it already, they have survived through an obstacle course. It'd be no wonder if this could also work as an adverse selection mechanism which as final effect leaves LFS mostly with spammers and wreckers.

TBH I believe the iRacing guys took a deep look at what LFS has built (both good and bad sides), not just because they wanted to differentiate their product but also because they were aware of the detrimental effect of some shortcomings on overall partecipation.

Although not arguing with what you're saying, ('cuz, tbh, I kind of agree in some ways) let's just put this into perspective.

LFS Forum members list shows 30548 registered users. I spent 30 seconds going through to see how many people had 0 posts, and this was around page 630. (30 per page)

I'm fairly confident that it'd be another 630 pages before we begin to see any active users of these forums. Look at our forums now, it's the same 40 or 50 people who use them. The vast majority of LFS users do not use the forum. A minority of that vast majority probbably don't even know these pages exist.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is this : To a person who actually likes the game, you will buy it/play it for the game, and not for the forums. If you look at a forum for a particular game, let's take, for this example, WoW (I'm not a player), and went to the WoW forums and thought "Wow, these lot are a bunch of retards with no life", but didn't buy the monthly fee thing, then one would think to themselves "Maybe they don't like the game after all".

Because, let's face it. Posting on these forums costs nothing but a few minutes registration time. Playing the (full) game costs money, and that's where people start to get funny about it. Any excuse to move away from the fact that they don't want to pay for it. Even if that excuse is to blame the community.

[Kerodal]

I have played this game really long( demo for 5 years and S2 for almost a month, and on forum first day i gotted S2 (offtopic Cause of S2:ERS flaming demoers). I remember the time when i ran from school to home to play lfs.. It was heaven(and still is) everytime a new patch was made i was like :O wow.

People please think also the time between starting and now. Why there is almost zero Xrt race servers... ALL dorifto (btw i also drift and cruise). When racing, always the same 1 guy is 2000million laps faster, and others struggle.

I personally like lfs physics, when going to corner and hitting the pedal in metal the grin come´s to my face as the car starts to struggle agaist my will. ( MY OPINION=THATS WHAT I LIKE ON LFS. it´s not like other games it is unique) FWD,RWD,AWD 1WD(Uf1000 :D)
Try this if you get bored= make new sets just from thin air, throw the setup bars ,make something opposite to usual I NEED FASTEST SETUP
try to make FUNNIEST setup or MOST INTERESTING.
All the whining and saying lfs is going to die is making me so sad.
If you dont like the game don´t come to whine to forums, don´t make other people feel miserable ( i dont mean that forum should be all wohoo ect..) just think 10 times before you post and after you have thinked 10 times think other 10 times.

I personally think this game is always gonna be classic, even on year 2900 some ppl play this game no matter what (unless everybody die).

With all respect: Kerodal the fan of Live For Speed forever

[G!NhO]

I have played this game really long( demo for 5 years and S2 for almost a month, and on forum frist day i gotted S2 (offtopic Cause of S2:ERS flaming demoers). I remember the time when i gotted from school to home to play lfs.. It was heaven(and still is) everytime a new patch was made i was like :O wow. People please think also the time between starting and now. Why there is almost zero Xrt race servers... ALL dorifto (i also drift and cruise) When racing always the same 1 guy is 2000million laps faster others struggle. I personally like lfs physics, when going to corner and hitting the pedal in metal the grin come´s to my face as the car starts to struggle agaist my will. ( MY OPINION=THATS WHAT I LIKE ON LFS. it´s not like other games it is unique) FWD,RWD,AWD 1WD(Uf1000 :D)
Try this if you get bored= make new sets just from thin air throw the setup bars make something opposite to usual I NEED FASTEST SETUP
try to make FUNNIEST setup or MOST INTERESTING.
All the whining and saying lfs is going to die is making me so sad.
I personally think this game is always gonna be classic even on year 2900 some ppl play this game no matter what (unless everybody die).
If you dont like the game don´t come to whine to forums, don´t make other people feel miserable ( i dont mean that forum should be all wohoo ect..) just think 10 times before you post and after you have thinked 10 times think other 10 times.
With all respect: Kerodal the fan of lfs forever
well said :thumb:

[felplacerad]

Consider the fact that there's no subscription fee, that the content upgrades (S1->S2->S3) are optional, that InSim is fully available in the demo, that there's no time-limit on the demo, that old versions of LFS are not actively locked out from the master-server, and so on.

Clearly The LFS Team is not in it for the money. Something else is their driving force, and I know for a fact that it's their dedication to making the best online racing simulation. This means they will not always give the community what it wants, when it wants it.

This is why I'm not the least worried about the lack of content updates (nor any other kind of updates for that matter). They'll become available when the time is right. Until then I'll spend my time partaking in some league racing, organising IRL-meets, visiting my girlfriend in Norway, having a drink with my friends and other quality stuff.

Devs, take your time!
Community, don't panic (written in large, friendly letters).

[pk500]

Why isn't there room in any sim gamers' collection for both LFS and more mass-market games such as rFactor and the Simbin games (GTR series, RACE series)?

Both have pros and cons. Admittedly, I'm very new to LFS, and I love it because the physics and tire models simply BLOW AWAY anything in rFactor outside of the Historic GT & Touring mod with properly tuned RealFeel, and they're also better than GTR 2.

But the lack of additional mods, cars and tracks hurts LFS when compared to rFactor and GTR 2, no question.

Still, all of that variety comes with a trade-off in quality.

The quality of tracks and mods in rFactor and GTR 2 varies wildly. A few are terrific; many are awful. Some are developed by people with intimate knowledge of race car engineering and physics; some are developed by so-called "experts" who know little but how to pump random physics values into Notepad. The effectiveness of force feedback plugins such as RealFeel and Leo's FFB, which are almost mandatory since the default ISI FFB is pure crap, also varies wildly by mod.

Everything in LFS just oozes quality and consistency due to one development team that is painstaking in detail. Physics and tire models are unique yet consistent. Same with force feedback. Same with graphics quality.

If your heart is set on racing real historic or current race cars and real tracks, then rFactor and GTR 2 are your best options. But that option comes with the price of scatter-shot physics, and sub-par tire models and force feedback, depending on the mod.

If you can tolerate the limited numbers of cars and tracks for LFS, you're rewarded by superior physics and tire models. That's what matters the most to me, and that's why I'm having so much fun with LFS.

Again, I'm new to LFS, so the "new car smell" is still quite strong. But for me, realistic physics and tire models never get old, never go out of style.

Take care,
PK

[MiniVan]

I hope it gets a major update, Cars, tracks. We just need a teaser to hold us over or something because I've been playing the same version of lfs for a while now.

[510N3D]

I hope it gets a major update, Cars, tracks. We just need a teaser to hold us over or something because I've been playing the same version of lfs for a while now.

Seriously & with all due respect but if i can trust those numbers and im actually referring to your LFSW profile then im under the impression that you're certainly not in the position to make such a statement. In addition to that, perhaps you should check your priorities and do something else.

Not that im not aware about the situation but since we aint got any informations (or lets say very little) about the current state of development and its progression its only fair to say that assuming into any direction is bare nonesense and a waste of time. Just because there are no news doesn't inevitably means that there is or isn't anything going on behind the scenes .

:shrug:

[Easy_Mike]

Well. my point of view. if needed:shrug: hehe

All greater updates usualy start as a bunch of patches in the testarea. havnt seen any, but there might be some before christmas.
So any BIG upgrade is hard for me to see this year. might be that improvment of cockpits in remaning cars and some bling bling to the grafics.
my guess is that the "BIG" update will be on hold until the summer of 2009..or later.

as all of u im only guessing. but with a few years of patchwhoring to back it up.( me and alot of more people here ofcourse:thumb:)

/Mike

[MiniVan]

Seriously & with all due respect but if i can trust those numbers and im actually referring to your LFSW profile then im under the impression that you're certainly not in the position to make such a statement. In addition to that, perhaps you should check your priorities and do something else.

Not that im not aware about the situation but since we aint got any informations (or lets say very little) about the current state of development and its progression its only fair to say that assuming into any direction is bare nonesense and a waste of time. Just because there are no news doesn't inevitably means that there is or isn't anything going on behind the scenes .

:shrug:

I'm married and have a child getting the fastest track times on lfs isn't my top thing right now

[S14 DRIFT]

I'm guessing he also means under 10k miles in nearly 4 years. o_O;

[NightShift]

Looks like I've not been diplomatic enough :) key points in the bit which has been quoted twice: "the newcomers playing the part of the passionate LFS'ers and oldtimers often showing up as sour assholes"

Merely pointing out how things sometimes look from the outside, not how they actually are, and the first line in my previous post was about the forum's stats being 'misleading indicators' - that was my point from the start. In the whole mess that some thread actually are, it's easy to mistake the boards for an unfriendly place at first, which gives out a bad impression on how the overall LFS experience might be.

And as good as the first impression is, having to race against an unfriendly or unclean community, doesn't look too good for a prospective buyer as LFS is for more than 50% an online thing.

Please don't refrain from posting examples.

If I was to post examples, I'd link countless threads about the senseless hatred of some racers towards all cruisers/drifters, and others revolving around the boards being a 'bad place' (which I think they are not)

But you've been here for so much more time than me, that I trust you'll understand what I mean without adding the actual links :p

:p

I am new blood :smileypul and I loved that bit about the telethon :D

To a person who actually likes the game, you will buy it/play it for the game, and not for the forums.

Sure thing, and I'd just like if the boards actually looked more like what they really are: a useful place where a lot of cool info about driving and setting the cars up can be found, which can be bloody fun as well.

[510N3D]

I'm married and have a child getting the fastest track times on lfs isn't my top thing right now

Well i wasn't really excluding anything (at least i tried not to). First things first, i understand and respect that. I also wasn't trying to compare my E-wiener with yours or such dumb thing. What i was actually referring to was the fact that people like you and some others in this and other simular threads, with a rather low milage and a rather low number of races are speaking about beeing bored and this and that needs to be changed/ added...or else. Please bear with me but im somehow unable to understand this line of thoughts.

Perhaps you're one of the kind that, regardless the lack of time, gets or got bored rather quickly (for whatever reason) and my guess is that for you and the people like you, nothing really is going to change that, perhaps not even in the long run. But yeah, i dont know you so i can only guess whats responsible for that, besides the lack of time that is.

[Hyperactive]

If I was to post examples, I'd link countless threads about the senseless hatred of some racers towards all cruisers/drifters, and others revolving around the boards being a 'bad place' (which I think they are not)

I was simply asking for evidence but you are defenately right about the cruise/drift issue. Just like it was with oval racing a while back, few people used every opportunity to make oval racing and oval racers look bad.I think few people have already left because the drifting abuse there are at times and no wonder really. But as in more broader view, I think the forums are still quite nice place to visit. The one liners alone make it worth sometimes :D

[gezmoor]

Ok here are just a few questions i’d like to ask into the “complainers” direction.


When did you joined LFS? (demo, forum, licenced right away, it doesnt matter)


Have you ever considered and even understood the facts that are basically responsible for the rather slow progress lately? (http://insidesimracing.blip.tv/file/705128?filename=Simracingtonight-VictorVaarvlardiganOfLFSInterview436.flv (http://insidesimracing.blip.tv/file/705128?filename=Simracingtonight-VictorVaarvlardiganOfLFSInterview436.flv)


When exactly did you got bored and perhaps, why in particulary?


Do you think that your motivation went away because you've used the game quite excessively or maybe even for the exact opposite reason?


Or do you think that it never really was your thing after all, no matter what kind of variation you’ve tried?


Was perhaps the lack or even the superior number of good competition the reason?


Have you tried a lot of variations the game offers or where you basically just doing one thing? (hotlapping, curcuit track/ rally racing, oval racing, cruising, drifting or drag racing et cetera (in no particular order ;))




Do you think that any significantly changes will bring you back to LFS or even bring back the joy from how it was at the beginning?


In addition to the previous one, do you think that it could be possible or must a requirement to reach a certain stage with LFS once again so that you can enjoy it just like in the beginning?


Do you have still faith in the project and ScaViEr, or do you just follow and believe into yours and/ or others assumptions?


Are these question of any help in any way, perhaps to bring more transparency into your personal situation and maybe even this particual problem?



All perfectly valid points. However the real issue as I see it is that nothing exists in a vacuum. LFS is a product and it will always be compared with other products, those of the same type, (ie racing sims), and those that compete to attract you away from that type, (pretty much any game). So irrespective of how good the fundamentals are it just can't afford to stand still development wise, as you can rest assured that the competition won't be standing still.

I come back to my point about the graphics. Just how many of you ever play 2D games? I grew up in the DOS games era and there were a few games I used to just love, but no matter how involving their gameplay was I just couldn't bear to play them now as they are just so dated in comparison with "modern" 3D games. Eventually there will come a point where no matter how realistic the physics engine in LFS is, the immersion will be lost because the visual interface will look so unrealistic in comparison with other products, eg imagine VR games become the norm, will you still think a 2D screen representation of a 3D world will seem "realistic" to anyone then? :shrug:

Just to clarify, I'm using graphics as an example. The point is valid for any aspect of the games development, content, physics engine etc

[510N3D]

All perfectly valid points. However the real issue as I see it is that nothing exists in a vacuum. LFS is a product and it will always be compared with other products, those of the same type, (ie racing sims), and those that compete to attract you away from that type, (pretty much any game). So irrespective of how good the fundamentals are it just can't afford to stand still development wise, as you can rest assured that the competition won't be standing still.

I come back to my point about the graphics. Just how many of you ever play 2D games? I grew up in the DOS games era and there were a few games I used to just love, but no matter how involving their gameplay was I just couldn't bear to play them now as they are just so dated in comparison with "modern" 3D games. Eventually there will come a point where no matter how realistic the physics engine in LFS is, the immersion will be lost because the visual interface will look so unrealistic in comparison with other products, eg imagine VR games become the norm, will you still think a 2D screen representation of a 3D world will seem "realistic" to anyone then? :shrug:

Just to clarify, I'm using graphics as an example. The point is valid for any aspect of the games development, content, physics engine etc

Well as for me, nothing really could drag me away from LFS since it has become a part of my life. That doesn't mean that im not trying other games but still and i guess for a very long time, LFS will remain on my harddrive and even more if its getting an "oldie" (for whatever reason) just like Test Drive 1 or S1 0.5F or something ;)

About the competition part, watch the interview from SRT with Victor and specifically look out for statements regarding this matter. Also, have a look at LFS as it is right now and tell me if they really want to compete in any way. They could of course throw in a lot of content and some bugfixes, call it S2 Final or maybe S3 ;), make the mob happy and a shite load of money. But why are they not doing it? Because they have choosen a different path, their very own way of developing. I dont know, perhaps such a step is inevitable along the way but it certainly looks like there is still some time for all the other things with a much higher priority to take care of first.

Put yourself into their position for once and ask yourself if you want to get rushed by inpatient people and release an rather unfinished product or something that is certainly not comfirm with your personal ideas "just to make a _few_ more bugs" or do you choose to ingore this awkward circumstance for as long as you think its necessary and then come up with a proper product that perhaps not only blows yourself but also "everyone else" away?

Im repeating myself again and again, feels like going in circles so im not going any further on this subject. (I know, i said so earlier already, but now it really is enough :nod:)

If people dont read or understand whats been said by the devs themselve about this matter then so be it.

I've added some stuff regarding that matter to my signature and so im done with this once and for all. :D

/leaves this thread silently

[Fetzo]

...
Impressive psychoanalysis. Something like "Tell me your stats, i tell you who you are." ;).

I am bored by LFS for a long time now, but i am still checking the forum, hoping that something new is coming up. i am not sure, but i hope my lfs stats can verify that. otherwise i am in a lot of trouble :/.

i am happy that other games keep getting better, maybe that puts a bit of pressure on the lfs development. iracing, rfactor historix mod and gtr evo are pretty good competitors, imho. the biggest advantage lfs has, is it's network code. i think, it's still the best.

i guess you would like to change the "then" in your signature to "than".

[obsolum]

i guess you would like to change the "then" in your signature to "than".
Why would he want to do that? :scratchch It wouldn't make any sense then :)

[Fetzo]

Why would he want to do that? :scratchch It wouldn't make any sense then :)

you lost me there, i guess you are being sarcastic :).

[gezmoor]

If people dont read or understand whats been said by the devs themselve about this matter then so be it.




Well, reading and understanding things that people say is completely different to agreeing with what they say. The devs can say what they like, they can run their development as they see fit, that's their perogative. But other people don't have to agree with any of it, that's their perogative too. If the devs don't want to take on board "advice" given freely on a forum, (some of it by people that probably have a lot more commercial experience than they do), then that's their perogative as well. It's not my business and none of it matters a jot to me, I'm just expressing an opinion as an opinion was asked for. :shrug:

Like you, I'll continue to play LFS until either

a) I get bored or something else takes my intention instead

or

b) It dies a death and I can't find any online servers to play it any more.

[pk500]

One positive of the limited number of LFS cars and tracks, from this rFactor veteran: A much less splintered online community. It's easier for me to find a quality LFS public race with the demo cars than it is for me with almost any rFactor mod.

rFactor has so many mods and tracks -- and most of the new ones often gain "flavor of the month" status before fading -- that the online community is splintered. Unless you're in a private league, it's pretty tough to find quality races in most mods during evening hours in the U.S.

And again, if you place a paramount on physics and tire models, LFS blows away rFactor.

Take care,
PK

[zeugnimod]

you lost me there, i guess you are being sarcastic :).

I think he was serious.

"And than more" really wouldn't make sense. :shrug:

[boosterfire]

One positive of the limited number of LFS cars and tracks, from this rFactor veteran: A much less splintered online community. It's easier for me to find a quality LFS public race with the demo cars than it is for me with almost any rFactor mod.

rFactor has so many mods and tracks -- and most of the new ones often gain "flavor of the month" status before fading -- that the online community is splintered. Unless you're in a private league, it's pretty tough to find quality races in most mods during evening hours in the U.S.

And again, if you place a paramount on physics and tire models, LFS blows away rFactor.

Take care,
PK

Up to a certain extent, having trouble finding good players means that there are also good players somewhere. Let's assume that in any gaming community, there's a certain percentage of people with whom it is fun to play. The rest are noobs. Considering that this percentage must be around the same for every gaming community, the more player base you have, the more good players you have (the same rule applies for idiots in a country, the more population you have, the more idiots :tilt:).

The problem with racing sims is that they're not incredibly popular, which will somehow limit your ability to find a good racers.

That said, we're fortunate that it's easy to judge someone performances in a racing game. There's a timer that tells you if someone is quite, and a chat log to tell you if they're stupid. In other online games, notably mmorpgs and fps's, it can be more troublesome to tell if somebody really has a clue about what he's doing (although thankfully there's still a chat log to give you an idea).

Something else we can be thankful for is that LFS and other racing sims don't really attract a part of the population which we don't want driving a car (IRL or here). This cannot be said about mmorpgs or fps's, both of which are usually type of games MUCH easier to play and master than LFS.

As to know if it's easier to find a good match in here than in rFactor, I couldn't tell, but what I can say is that LFS has unfortunately a very European based community (no offense, there, of course), which makes it hard for NA players (and I guess people from other parts of the world) to find a good racing server in their peak hours.

[510N3D]

Well, reading and understanding things that people say is completely different to agreeing with what they say. The devs can say what they like, they can run their development as they see fit, that's their perogative. But other people don't have to agree with any of it, that's their perogative too. If the devs don't want to take on board "advice" given freely on a forum, (some of it by people that probably have a lot more commercial experience than they do), then that's their perogative as well. It's not my business and none of it matters a jot to me, I'm just expressing an opinion as an opinion was asked for. :shrug:

Like you, I'll continue to play LFS until either

a) I get bored or something else takes my intention instead

or

b) It dies a death and I can't find any online servers to play it any more.

Yeah you're certainly right there to some extent. On the contrary, they have indeed taken many advices into consideration and even a couple of those had been "implemented" but i guess that they aint going to let that happen to the "main core" and this is whats beeing discussed here if im not mistaken.



i guess you would like to change the "then" in your signature to "than".

better? ;)

[Fetzo]

I think he was serious.

"And than more" really wouldn't make sense. :shrug:

weird, "www.fragmaster.net (http://www.fragmaster.net/) - more then you deserve." is the signature i see and i think a "than" would be right.

[sinbad]

weird, "www.fragmaster.net (http://www.fragmaster.net/) - more then you deserve." is the signature i see and i think a "than" would be right.




FWIW, you're right.

[510N3D]

You live and learn. Thanks for the hint guys. :thumb:

[TAYLOR-MANIA]

So after speed-reading all 7 pages i see there's 3 things that keep on coming up again & again, and we know this isn't the first time these things have been brought up... over & over again...

1. The lack of communication between the developers & the community.
Look what's happened regarding the VW, it's a perfect example. Now people are pissed they haven't got it yet when in fact the developers gave no impression to have anyone believe that we'd have it anytime soon, clearly saying we may aswell forget about it. But still there's some people who, somehow, feel that it's delayed... well it sucks to be them hey?!

I like the not knowing. We know what we need to. We were told what to expect from S2 Final & what's on the agenda... isn't that good enough? What else do you need to know exactly?

I guess such comments made by Scawen & Victor just need to be more 'centralised' & not be buried away inside a hard to find 100+ page thread. That would shut them up a bit... there's your communication & peace of mind that LFS is still being worked on...

2. The lack of frequent LFS updates & the slowing development cycle.
Perhaps it's slowing down for a reason. Perhaps they're getting all the mundane tidily bits to make S2 Final out of the way... the stuff that if they told the community about they'd complain they should be working on new tracks instead. Perhaps their workload is increasing. Perhaps they're gearing up towards getting stuff ready for S3 like the tools, research, ideas, references or whatever else needs to be done.
And perhaps you should do something else other than waiting for something that you don't even know when or what is being released...

3. To combat the prolonged lack of updates people suggest increasing the workforce.
I'd imagine that Scawen, Victor & Eric know very well what they're doing, and it works for them so it works for me. They don't need to be told/advised to employ more staff or face the inevitable death of LFS (dun dun dunnnn!). I think they'd know before anyone else if LFS is facing a certain death, and i think they'd do something to change the tide if that were the case...

And think about it, why exactly would it matter even if large numbers of long-time players leave LFS?? They've got their money from them & as long as new players are still coming to LFS steadily & even in growing numbers, then there is no problem for the developers or LFS is there?

90% of those players leaving have used LFS for a long time indeed & have now grown bored of it. That's to be expected after 6-odd years & that's their problem. But the developers shouldn't change their ways just because a fraction of old-timers are getting impatient. Those players should know by now how LFS is developed anyway.
Those drivers can get up & leave, slamming the door behind them as hard as they want to make it known, but I bet they'll be back eventually. And luckily for them they'll even have some free updates to welcome them back!

------

LFS is nothing but a tool for simracing to me. And it does it's job perfectly well right now as it did do when i first started, only now it's better. So long as there's leagues and people online to race with then LFS is still very much alive to me. Alpha, Beta, Final, whatever, the racing is still there to be had. Obviously improvements are there to be made & extra features/content would be good for everyone, and guess what? It's coming! Can't wait? Then don't wait.

[S14 DRIFT]

1. The lack of communication between the developers & the community.
Look what's happened regarding the VW, it's a perfect example. Now people are pissed they haven't got it yet when in fact the developers gave no impression to have anyone believe that we'd have it anytime soon, clearly saying we may aswell forget about it. But still there's some people who, somehow, feel that it's delayed... well it sucks to be them hey?!

So, if they had no intention of releasing it (in the forseeable future), they why bother advertising it in the first place?:really:

I like the not knowing. We know what we need to. We were told what to expect from S2 Final & what's on the agenda... isn't that good enough? What else do you need to know exactly?

Maybe we want to know what's actually going on, what they're working on and what updates they have planned. I see no harm in that.:shrug:


2. The lack of frequent LFS updates & the slowing development cycle.
Perhaps it's slowing down for a reason. Perhaps they're getting all the mundane tidily bits to make S2 Final out of the way... the stuff that if they told the community about they'd complain they should be working on new tracks instead. Perhaps their workload is increasing. Perhaps they're gearing up towards getting stuff ready for S3 like the tools, research, ideas, references or whatever else needs to be done.
And perhaps you should do something else other than waiting for something that you don't even know when or what is being released...

S3 is not going to be developed until S2 is finished, this was said in the InsideSimRacingTV interview (the one with that irritating bald headed American dude).

I'm sure they have all their plans and ideas in place, unless they're doing stuff such as laser scanning some licenced tracks and what-not. (Which I doubt..)

3. To combat the prolonged lack of updates people suggest increasing the workforce.
I'd imagine that Scawen, Victor & Eric know very well what they're doing, and it works for them so it works for me. They don't need to be told/advised to employ more staff or face the inevitable death of LFS (dun dun dunnnn!). I think they'd know before anyone else if LFS is facing a certain death, and i think they'd do something to change the tide if that were the case...

Maybe it is. Who knows, more to the point, who really cares?

And think about it, why exactly would it matter even if large numbers of long-time players leave LFS?? They've got their money from them & as long as new players are still coming to LFS steadily & even in growing numbers, then there is no problem for the developers or LFS is there?

No offense to the newbies among us, but maybe 6 out of 10 'new' people that join the game have no concept of clean driving, common sense or even a brain. :shrug:

90% of those players leaving have used LFS for a long time indeed & have now grown bored of it. That's to be expected after 6-odd years & that's their problem.

Agreed.:thumb:

But the developers shouldn't change their ways just because a fraction of old-timers are getting impatient. Those players should know by now how LFS is developed anyway.

Again, guess that's right. But it's more than a fraction, many of the regular forum members don't even play LFS anymore, maybe because they don't have the time, but I'm sure some are because of the lack of updates. :shrug:

Those drivers can get up & leave, slamming the door behind them as hard as they want to make it known, but I bet they'll be back eventually. And luckily for them they'll even have some free updates to welcome them back!

They'll likely be back when new cars/tracks/serious features (such as weather, day/night etc) are released. Which kind of is what they're asking for in the first place?:shrug:

------

LFS is nothing but a tool for simracing to me. And it does it's job perfectly well right now as it did do when i first started, only now it's better. So long as there's leagues and people online to race with then LFS is still very much alive to me. Alpha, Beta, Final, whatever, the racing is still there to be had. Obviously improvements are there to be made & extra features/content would be good for everyone, and guess what? It's coming! Can't wait? Then don't wait.

It may be coming, and I'm sure people wouldn't mind waiting if we had a clue what the **** was going on! :x

[TAYLOR-MANIA]

So, if they had no intention of releasing it (in the forseeable future), they why bother advertising it in the first place?:really:

I might be wrong here... but am i correct in saying that the VW was only made known after somebody here discovered it was at some gaming convention in Germany? And once the 'leaked' news was out only then it was confirmed by Scawen. Maybe if nobody found out about it it wouldn't have been officially confirmed/announced until nearer the release date... But yeah, i could be wrong on that...

Maybe we want to know what's actually going on, what they're working on and what updates they have planned. I see no harm in that.:shrug:

Sure, and we've been told what's planned already. Like i said though i think it just needs to be more clear, like on the website or wiki.

[sinbad]

S3 is not going to be developed until S2 is finished, this was said in the InsideSimRacingTV interview (the one with that irritating bald headed American dude).

That's what the generally held belief is, but I doubt it's 100% correct. S3 will be the next big money maker. I know they say they want S2 perfect before S3 is even mentioned, but I seriously doubt that everything they have done in the years since S2 was released will be delivered to us by the time we get to S2-Final.

As I've said before, if I were the devs I would let sales figures influence my release schedule, and that's what I think they are doing. I'm sure they've got loads of stuff "half-ready" which is not destined for S2, but for S3, and they can release it, or news about it, at their leisure - in which ever way will be most lucrative.

[Hyperactive]

That's what the generally held belief is, but I doubt it's 100% correct. S3 will be the next big money maker. I know they say they want S2 perfect before S3 is even mentioned, but I seriously doubt that everything they have done in the years since S2 was released will be delivered to us by the time we get to S2-Final.

As I've said before, if I were the devs I would let sales figures influence my release schedule, and that's what I think they are doing. I'm sure they've got loads of stuff "half-ready" which is not destined for S2, but for S3, and they can release it, or news about it, at their leisure - in which ever way will be most lucrative.

If anything, the generally held belief is that there are bucketloads of stuff sitting on the devs' desks, even if scawen has said it multiple times that this isn't the case. Sure there probably are some plans, drawings and stuff about various things thought of but half finished is just so optimistic.

[sinbad]

If anything, the generally held belief is that there are bucketloads of stuff sitting on the devs' desks, even if scawen has said it multiple times that this isn't the case. Sure there probably are some plans, drawings and stuff about various things thought of but half finished is just so optimistic.

Half-ready not half-finished :)

Perhaps I am optimistic in that respect (although not with regard to arrival of stuff I hasten to add!). Perhaps I just give Scawen and Eric more credit than they deserve.

Maybe we should try a bit of reverse psychology.

I don't want any new stuff, and the devs are probably too scared to release anything, what with the new competition and all. I bet they've forgotten how to release content anyway.

Fingers crossed!

[zeugnimod]

weird, "www.fragmaster.net (http://www.fragmaster.net/) - more then you deserve." is the signature i see and i think a "than" would be right.




Oh, I meant the right part of the signature, he changed it now. It said something like "and then more...". :x

[510N3D]

yeah yeah rub it in :sadbanana

[zeugnimod]

At least it's a new topic, not one that is discussed every other month. :D

[Bandit77]

2. The lack of frequent LFS updates & the slowing development cycle.
Perhaps it's slowing down for a reason. Perhaps they're getting all the mundane tidily bits to make S2 Final out of the way...


Perhaps I am optimistic in that respect (although not with regard to arrival of stuff I hasten to add!). Perhaps I just give Scawen and Eric more credit than they deserve.

Perhaps you (that's all the LFS-players minus me :razz:) are really too optimistic, too sympathetic.
Perhaps Scavier found a better way to make their livings. Perhaps they only don't tell the community to make sure some lost souls and optimists buy some S2 licenses... :shrug:


I'm evil, I know...

[510N3D]

At least it's a new topic, not one that is discussed every other month. :D

Alright, that certainly is something i'll take the blame for on a voluntary basis. :banana:

[Zen321]

1. The lack of communication between the developers & the community.

A long paragraph to say that we are insecure about the LFS future if we have no communication.

2. The lack of frequent LFS updates & the slowing development cycle.

A lot of "perhaps" which clearly states he has no answer for this question

3. To combat the prolonged lack of updates people suggest increasing the workforce.

An interesting thought about why they don't increase the labour force.
Then a big paragraph of rant toward the old timers.

------

Stating the obivous : LFS is alive and people play online with it. I bet it took long and painful observations to reach that conclusion.

1. No communication = risk of nothing going on.

And you can't tell me I'm wrong. Just check the www.lfs.net homepage. There are news every 6 monthes (except for the Scirocco). No communication can clearly indicated that : either there is nothing going on / either there are really bad news and people shouldn't be told about to preserve the LFS income. We do not ask for much. We do ask for a periodic information (could be every month, or every month and a half, I would not like to have the devs do a daily newsletter and it would turn their work into more of a reality show than a gaming development).

Plus, the communication could boost the developpers productivity ? How ? This is simple : tell everyone you're almost finished with the detachable parts model and you will receive more than 200 posts like "Keep up the good work !", "Go Scavier Go !" or "Scawen, please make love with me !" in less than an hour. Of course, some people will bitch about the fact that it isn't released yet, but it is better to have 90% of support than 90% of opposition. C'est bon pour le moral. (saying my home language words in italic like in the books is simply orgasmic). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twDhig0L97Q

2. Live For Speed's updates take long to come.

It is true, but we can't deny that they are well appreciated. As time goes by, Scavier will attack itself to feature that are harder to program. But what is feelable is that most of the time, the improvement in each patch are mostly coding improvement, and not really content (in sense of cars/tracks/etc). Which can lead us to think that Eric is barely working. Since this number two is the number of perhapses, I will risk one : Perhaps Eric is hardcore working to have the S3 content amazingly rich. If it is the case, that would go back to point 1 : a bit of teasing like "Hey community, I have done 75% of the S3 content, but I won't give you any information about it untill it is released in a couple of monthes or by fall 2009" would be greatly appreciated, create a positive stress among the community, more talking, more interest from potential S2 buyers --> More cash.

People are negatively stressed, because slower updates lead them to think that S2 is starting to stagnate.

3. We are right to suggest the increase in the labour force.

Because with the simple equation : Labour Force = X(Content) + Y(Physics) - Z(Individual Profit). If we double the labour force, we will have : 2(Labour Force) = 2X(Content) + 2Y(Physics) - 2Z (Individual Profit). I have to say that X, Y and Z are likely to be between 0 and 1 or an exponential number so that X = r(e^x), Y = t(e^y) and Z = u(e^z).
r and t are coefficient in the importance given to that field, and x and y are the productivity in each field. About Z, it isn't like this, but it was fun to write it like this.

The only thing in that model is that there are only 2 variables that affect the sales : Content and Physics.
So if Sales = A(Content) + B(Physics) + C(Content x Physics)
(A is the coefficient of people who buy LFS for the content, B for the physics and C for both of them, so basically A are long-time demoers that buy S1 or S2, B are demoers, and C are people who bought LFS after a small tryout in demo).

If the Labour Force increase, you will have more subscribers because of improved physics and diversified content (which will reach a broader market share). And Live For Speed would have better financial ressources. Of course, it won't if the labour costs more than it produces, but there is no model who can calculate this.
So either you think in term of costs, either you think in terms of future earnings. This will be the difference between a good ressource manager and a good development manager. Either you stabilize your earnings/expenditure ratio, either you invest more (time + money), to improve your earnings in the future.

Since Scawen, Eric and Viktor are development managers from day 1 (LFS was extremely risky and would cost a lot of time/money), they should not become ressource managers, which will lead to the great stagnation of LFS, but as opposed to that : invest more, like they did in day 1, to improve the quality of their baby.

-------------

Just to reply to the rant against old time players. You are wrong. You are wrong, because you are deeply wrong. You are deeply wrong because you are extremely wrong. And you are extremely wrong but you contradict yourself in your own post. I know it's hard to focus for posts that long, but if you manage well, you can pretend to beat me in the "long'arse posts" community year end award. (Which isn't yet running, but I hope people will recognize my dedication).
You say : why should they care about old timers, because they don't give any money in the present for the devs. They actually do care about old timers, because the newcomers do not seem to bring them enough money.
Why ? Simply look at the Scirocco, which is a clear example showing that they were paid really well by VW to include it in. If their subscription cash pool was sufficient enough, they would have chosen a car that reflected better the spirit of Live For Speed, such as the Race About : independent, performant, sexy, future-oriented.

I am not ranting against the Scirocco, and I even think that having a 2000ish mass production turbo FWD with TC will be fun to test spin.

It just shows that they wanted big cash, and they also pleased people waiting for new content. It proves that they care at least as well about the old timers than about the new comers.

----------

I posted the link to the video for some specific reasons and not a random creol music video :

1) It is a very good illustration of my point : more communication = more support = more productivity. From 1:05 to 2:00, a guy cuts fruits. It seems really painfull. However, people come to support him because they know that he is doing it to please them. So, they come support him, and he cuts fruits faster. And someone even comes after to help him. Without communication, it would take more than a minute to cut enough fruits, he would be pissed, not enjoy the party and people would not be as impressed when he brings a whole tray of fruits, than they were when they were waiting for him to cut them, because they knew he was.

2) It is a sheer music that will reduce the tension here and increase the friendliness of the people ! :thumb:

[UncleBenny]

I figure there are other LFS communities out there for the Spanish players, German players, etc. I sometimes wonder if they have these discussions all the time too.

[NightShift]

Those drivers can get up & leave, slamming the door behind them as hard as they want to make it known,

Well I've heard that reply so many times in another game community that it has made me sick. If some people are vocal about their insatisfaction is because they really feel it and they hope that talking about that can change something for the better.

Along the same lines one could reply, if you're sick of reading people moaning about the slowness of the updates ...stop reading those posts. OTOH some people in the past have become a little annoying and offensive in their rants so I guess your position is plenty understandable.

[J@tko]

I figure there are other LFS communities out there for the Spanish players, German players, etc. I sometimes wonder if they have these discussions all the time too.
German Forum topics:
Vat beer do you drink Stefan?
Oh no - mein steering wheel is exactly 0.001mm off center!! nein!!

Spanish Forum topics:
Lewis Hamilton is a w***er
Let's form a spanish version of the BNP
Physics Help Thread, with Lerts :tilt:

[jbirdaspec]

1. No communication = risk of nothing going on.



2. Live For Speed's updates take long to come.



3. We are right to suggest the increase in the labour force.



In a few lines, here is what happends when a programmer opens their mouths too much.....

$Goal1 = 'public announcement';

.$Goal1 = 'superduper great idea';
.$Goal1 = 'but i want more then you can offer right now';
.$Gaol1 = 'your not meeting your dead lines!!';

if $Goal1 (!= In_Control)

do {

if ($client != ':D')
{ echo 'Public Appology that will never be good enough';}
else
{ echo 'Nothing. :x There is no reason to start a fire in my own own back yard';}

while } $communitry == :worried:;

It just makes more work for them to do.

[NightShift]

If their subscription cash pool was sufficient enough, they would have chosen a car that reflected better the spirit of Live For Speed, such as the Race About : independent, performant, sexy, future-oriented.

That the Raceabout would reflect the spirit of LfS hits me as a bit of an overstatement, you're just taking wild guesses or do you have links to threads to support it?

We don't know why they accepted the VW rather than say, the DP1, everything is just an experiment in telepathy, trying to tell what's really crossing those three minds (but I'll be glad to stand corrected)

Maybe they have chosen the include the Scirocco because the VW brand is extremely well recognized and one of the biggest automakers in the world, and thus LfS has gained a lot more visibility outside the circle of autosimmers just because of that.

VW latest brainchild is likely more well known rather than a fascinating but obscure prototype.

[farcar]

Just wanted to pick you up on a couple of things in your rant.

why exactly would it matter even if large numbers of long-time players leave LFS??
The commercial loss for Scavier would be if these people don't fork out for S3.

90% of those players leaving have used LFS for a long time indeed & have now grown bored of it. That's to be expected after 6-odd years & that's their problem.
I have not grown bored of LFS as a piece of software, or as a concept. I've grown bored of it's current content and grown tired of the slowing development cycle. There's a difference.

But the developers shouldn't change their ways just because a fraction of old-timers are getting impatient.
As you said yourself the 'old timers' know how the developers work, so it's concerning that it is these people who are becoming impatient after all this time.
Generally, the 'old timers' are the most patient people in the community. :nod:

[Zen321]

In a few lines, here is what happends when a programmer opens their mouths too much.....

$Goal1 = 'public announcement';

.$Goal1 = 'superduper great idea';
.$Goal1 = 'but i want more then you can offer right now';
.$Gaol1 = 'your not meeting your dead lines!!';

if $Goal1 (!= In_Control)

do {

if ($client != ':D')
{ echo 'Public Appology that will never be good enough';}
else
{ echo 'Nothing. :x There is no reason to start a fire in my own own back yard';}

while } $communitry == :worried:;

It just makes more work for them to do.

This is a wrong program code, because this is assuming someone already programmed the three answers to a public annoucement to be those. And as I don't beleive in god (that's why I write his name without capital letters, because he is a mere concept), I don't think such a code exists.

Of course it will make more work for them. But Live For Speed is not their hobby, it is the thing that make them eat, pay their rent, go to clubs etc. You need to have strictness in your work, they have it, that is not the point. More work = more rate of return concerning time/money spent in developping their game, so this is a win-win situation for both. Business is only about win-win situations.

[Mountaindewzilla]

You know, I am really hopeful.

I would really like to see what happens with LFS, and I would love to see the community grow.

[TAYLOR-MANIA]

1. No communication = risk of nothing going on.

A really short paragraph to say that 'we' want periodic information and how feedback from the users will boost productivity.
Right, periodic information... It hasn't happened before so why should it now?

Giving the community periodic updates on what's being done & when just isn't how Scavier likes do things. They've made that clear numerous times, it's not so hard to understand is it?

I think it's all about peace of mind people are looking for & to be told, or even better, to be shown that LFS is still going strong... especially during this period of time.

Also i'll add that i don't think they need a few measly posts of encouragement to enthuse their productivity rate, although i'd guess they are appreciated.

A lot of "perhaps" which clearly states he has no answer for this question
Clearly! You're absolutley right there, i don't have the answer or the reason behind the infrequent updates. Who does but the devs themselves?
We can speculate all we like as to the reasons why, and it basically boils down to either they're working hard or the opposite of that. And how you look at that depends on how much of an optimist or pessimist you are. I guess i am an optimist as far this goes...

But luckily for me i can still enjoy LFS as it is right now. It's a perfectly usable and above average sim as it is in it's current state. So the devs could pull the plug on it this very moment, kill it, finito, and i'd still be happy with it & still use it.
But I get the impression some people are using it with the thought of what's to come. It'd be a shame to not see it reach its maxiumum potential, but can you imagine the shitstorm if the development of LFS was stopped... it would be most amusing on the forums here! :D
But it's gotta stop sometime, nothing lasts forever...

3. We are right to suggest the increase in the labour force.
I reckon they can manage their business & income just fine, as they have done for the past 6 or more years. I don't think it's for us to be concerned about really, even during these slow times. Although all this worrying is to be expected to a small degree.

Just to reply to the rant against old time players. You are wrong. You are wrong, because you are deeply wrong. You are deeply wrong because you are extremely wrong. And you are extremely wrong but you contradict yourself in your own post.
It wasn't a rant really. I could do much better than that for a rant! :D
So how did i contradict myself? Please explain, I don't see how i did...

You say : why should they care about old timers, because they don't give any money in the present for the devs. They actually do care about old timers, because the newcomers do not seem to bring them enough money.
What? No I didn't say that. I questioned why it matters if long-time players leave. I wasn't stating that there would be no problem. FarCar & S14 Drift gave answers to that question & both good points by the way.

And how do you know who they care about? You're making that assumption based on 'the newcomers don't seem to bring them enough money'. How do you know that?! They're probably pretty cushty when it comes to money, which is why they're in no rush to put out more content. Yup, again, that's me being the optimist! ;)

Why ? Simply look at the Scirocco, which is a clear example showing that they were paid really well by VW to include it in.
How do you know they were paid really well?

If their subscription cash pool was sufficient enough, they would have chosen a car that reflected better the spirit of Live For Speed, such as the Race About : independent, performant, sexy, future-oriented.
It appears you believe you know how the devs operate. What makes you think they'd spend the license earnings on purchasing the rights to a new car?

If It just shows that they wanted big cash, and they also pleased people waiting for new content. It proves that they care at least as well about the old timers than about the new comers.
Maybe. Or maybe it was too good of an offer to refuse. With VW wanting a car in their sim they'd probably drop everything to grab that opportunity, regardless of how much they were paid.

It just shows that they wanted big cash, and they also pleased people waiting for new content. It proves that they care at least as well about the old timers than about the new comers.
And personally I don't think the VW has anything to do with looking after the old or new players, i think the devs are doing what they want when they want with their sim.
--------------------------------
Well I've heard that reply so many times in another game community that it has made me sick. If some people are vocal about their insatisfaction is because they really feel it and they hope that talking about that can change something for the better.
I didn't mean that line of mine you quoted in a nasty kinda way. The rest of that quote which you didn't include went on to say "but I bet they'll be back eventually. And luckily for them they'll even have some free updates to welcome them back!"
So what i meant was that LFS will still continue on as it has previously, no matter how many people leave or how loudly they exit, an improved LFS will still be there upon their return (providing new players are coming).

Along the same lines one could reply, if you're sick of reading people moaning about the slowness of the updates ...stop reading those posts. OTOH some people in the past have become a little annoying and offensive in their rants so I guess your position is plenty understandable.
What do you mean by "i guess your position is plenty understandable"? What is my position?

Generally, the 'old timers' are the most patient people in the community. :nod:
Yeah, good point.

I've cast my vote for 'LFS will eventually die off' & finished with long posts now! Cheerio.

[LiveForBoobs]

farcar, Old timers probably are more patient because they like the way the game is right now, so any further improvement is just a bonus, not a necessity for them to enjoy it.

They also have come to understand this is the way the devs work, and that what many newcomers are suggesting has been suggested many times before.

If you don't like the ways thigs are right now, you can make a topic about your suggestion in the improvement sections, but saying "we want this and that" is like me going to your house telling you when to buy new furniture.

PS: hey Taylor :)

[obsolum]

LFS will eventually die off. That's a given. It can't go on forever :shrug:

I've voted for the "content update within the next year" option, which is pretty much a given, too.

[Zen321]

Right, periodic information... It hasn't happened before so why should it now?
Right, in the past we did not have airplanes, the world went well, why should it have happened? We did not happen to have condoms before as well, why should it have happened? We did not have MD's back in the middle age, why should it have happened? If you are clearly against progress, then I guess it is pointless to try to explain that NOTHING can run for a long period of time without having to adapt itself. Especially in businesses, with our fast changing times.

Giving the community periodic updates on what's being done & when just isn't how Scavier likes do things. They've made that clear numerous times, it's not so hard to understand is it?
And we made it clear as well that we would appreciate having them, and for what reasons. Sometimes, in ordre to keep your project running on for longer, you have to make sacrifices from your original view in order to adapt it. Without adaptation, LFS is going to die, as it is normal in every other field of life.
I think it's all about peace of mind people are looking for & to be told, or even better, to be shown that LFS is still going strong... especially during this period of time.
True, because people enjoy the sim, and if Scavier goes to bankruptcy, it means that they won't be able to play anymore (no master server). As I told earlier, this is a win-win situation : new updates/better communication, the community is still alive, the sim gets enough subscriptions, both side are happy and LFS keeps running for long.
Also i'll add that i don't think they need a few measly posts of encouragement to enthuse their productivity rate, although i'd guess they are appreciated.
It is acceptable within the reac of common sense that having some warm posts about how great the job is than having that kind of threads popping up with a frightening frequency. Once again, I won't try to explain to you, because this is common sense, and basic logic that I think you are able to understand, if my 8 yo sister can.

Clearly! You're absolutley right there, i don't have the answer or the reason behind the infrequent updates. Who does but the devs themselves?
We can speculate all we like as to the reasons why, and it basically boils down to either they're working hard or the opposite of that. And how you look at that depends on how much of an optimist or pessimist you are. I guess i am an optimist as far this goes...
We agree on this point. We have no idea, just more or less plausible guesses. Maybe they have been shot by lerts ? Once again, it would not create that kind of tension about positive/negative speculation if information was released on a closer span of time.
But luckily for me i can still enjoy LFS as it is right now. It's a perfectly usable and above average sim as it is in it's current state. So the devs could pull the plug on it this very moment, kill it, finito, and i'd still be happy with it & still use it.
But I get the impression some people are using it with the thought of what's to come. It'd be a shame to not see it reach its maxiumum potential, but can you imagine the shitstorm if the development of LFS was stopped... it would be most amusing on the forums here! :D
But it's gotta stop sometime, nothing lasts forever...


I reckon they can manage their business & income just fine, as they have done for the past 6 or more years. I don't think it's for us to be concerned about really, even during these slow times. Although all this worrying is to be expected to a small degree.
We can feel concerned, because as I said earlier, we also have interests in seeing the product goes for long. This is why we genuinely offer to share our thoughts and reflections to the devs.

It wasn't a rant really. I could do much better than that for a rant! :D
So how did i contradict myself? Please explain, I don't see how i did...
The following lines of my original posts explain the contradiction.

What? No I didn't say that. I questioned why it matters if long-time players leave. I wasn't stating that there would be no problem. FarCar & S14 Drift gave answers to that question & both good points by the way.

And how do you know who they care about? You're making that assumption based on 'the newcomers don't seem to bring them enough money'. How do you know that?! They're probably pretty cushty when it comes to money, which is why they're in no rush to put out more content. Yup, again, that's me being the optimist! ;)
As you were making the assumption that old timers leaving did not matter. If you do some business, you have to known that old time customers maybe are the most important part of your earnings. If those guys sticked with you for 5 years, then left, you might ask yourself if you are not doing something wrong.

By the way, stop being optimistic, you'll be disappointed in a lot of fields in life, trust me :p
If they were pretty 'custhy' as you say, then why should they add the Scirocco, something that had been planned in the last minute, and is mostly leading to a high £££ contract? Beware, I am not complaining about the choice and I would be happy if they had more £££ and I think that every new content is positive content, pretty much like the vast majority of people here, even if they complain.

How do you know they were paid really well?
It is an assumption : a big brand of car makers goes to see a small team of the best simulation, asking for their car to be in the game. This is a marketing operation to associate VW to serious simracing, and probably the next step in the race game industry. It gives an image of seriousness and concern about the future. Plus, LFS is their customer shares : car enthusiasts. If they like how well the Scirocco behaves, then they will buy it. Lfs gets paid as an advertiser, in this case, with also the new content as a way to upgrade itself. And I bet paid really really well, because it is not quite the kind of car that was supposed to be in the plans for the development. So Ithink a big paycheck was there :p Which is cool tbh :p

It appears you believe you know how the devs operate. What makes you think they'd spend the license earnings on purchasing the rights to a new car?


Maybe. Or maybe it was too good of an offer to refuse. With VW wanting a car in their sim they'd probably drop everything to grab that opportunity, regardless of how much they were paid.


And personally I don't think the VW has anything to do with looking after the old or new players, i think the devs are doing what they want when they want with their sim.

You misunderstood me. I said that the devs were caring about old timers to include a new car, and upgrade the content, rather than working on physics (maybe the choice was financially suggested by their bank account). VW has nothing to do with privilegiating a payer type against another


Every thing is in bold in the quote

[Dalibor79]

" So the devs could pull the plug on it this very moment, kill it, finito, and i'd still be happy with it & still use it."
well, if that eventually does happen, i think it would be modded a lot cos probably "source code" or something like that, will be "given". i hope

[farcar]

farcar, Old timers probably are more patient because they like the way the game is right now, so any further improvement is just a bonus, not a necessity for them to enjoy it.

They also have come to understand this is the way the devs work, and that what many newcomers are suggesting has been suggested many times before.

You didn't even read my post did you? I think you just read the quote in TAYLOR-MANIA (http://www.lfsforum.net/member.php?u=147161)'s post above. Go back an read my whole post. It might put things in to context for you and you'll realise you have made a moot point.

If you don't like the ways thigs are right now, you can make a topic about your suggestion in the improvement sections, but saying "we want this and that" is like me going to your house telling you when to buy new furniture.

If this was directed at me, then you've totally lost me. What are you on about? :shrug:

[NightShift]

What is my position?

|
v

Those drivers can get up & leave, slamming the door behind them as hard as they want

This is the bit that I found interesting, cos it frequently popped up in a game community I've been a part of until recently.

Your suggestion is some users should stop venting their spleen on the boards, isn't it?

[gezmoor]

How do you know they were paid really well?
It is an assumption : a big brand of car makers goes to see a small team of the best simulation, asking for their car to be in the game.


Well that's one way it could have happened. The other being the complete opposite of course. ie The devs realised they needed a "current" car in the game to attract new users and so they went to VW to beg them to allow them to use the car. A bit of a pitch later about how it would bring them kudos etc and a bit of payment from LFS to VW and the devs get the go ahead.

I think the second scenario is far more likely, with maybe the bit about money being paid not happening if the devs managed a really good sales pitch for LFS.

The reason I believe it was that way round?

a) I think it's highly unlikely that any top exec in VW would have ever heard of LFS, (it's a million to 1 shot that someone that high up in a global company is going to be spending their time on line playing a driving sim).

b) Even in the highly unlikely event that anyone in VW had even heard of LFS there isn't a chance in hell they would be interested in going out of their way to approach them to put their car in the game. What do they gain? there simply is absolutely zero marketing to be gained from it.

c) In the extremely unlikely event that someone in VW had thought it was a good idea to have one of their cars in LFS, hell would have to freeze over before they would pay the devs for such a "privilege". Much more likely in that exceptionally unlikely scenario is that the devs jumped at the chance and were falling over themselves to do it for free.

Remember, it would take a relatively senior person in VW to make a decision to allow a car of theirs to be licenced to end up in a game. We're talking a global corp here, not some niche car manufacturer looking for any avenue they can to promote their "garden shed" product. Global corps are extremely sensitive to product placement and positioning. A mistake in this respect can cost millions.

[NightShift]

I don't think it's so unlikely the marketing people at VW came up with the idea to put their car in a game as a promotion tool. In the past other automakers made the same move. But in every other example I can think of, there has never been the chance to compare the car directly to similar RL cars.

LFS fits perfectly the bill: it does not currently offer a similar RL car(*) and it's not moddable.

(*) even if the FXO bears some resemblance to the Astra G Coupé, there are actually several differences and the model has been discontinued anyway.

[bbman]

Well that's one way it could have happened. The other being the complete opposite of course. ie The devs realised they needed a "current" car in the game to attract new users and so they went to VW to beg them to allow them to use the car. A bit of a pitch later about how it would bring them kudos etc and a bit of payment from LFS to VW and the devs get the go ahead.

I think the second scenario is far more likely, with maybe the bit about money being paid not happening if the devs managed a really good sales pitch for LFS.

The reason I believe it was that way round?

a) I think it's highly unlikely that any top exec in VW would have ever heard of LFS, (it's a million to 1 shot that someone that high up in a global company is going to be spending their time on line playing a driving sim).

b) Even in the highly unlikely event that anyone in VW had even heard of LFS there isn't a chance in hell they would be interested in going out of their way to approach them to put their car in the game. What do they gain? there simply is absolutely zero marketing to be gained from it.

c) In the extremely unlikely event that someone in VW had thought it was a good idea to have one of their cars in LFS, hell would have to freeze over before they would pay the devs for such a "privilege". Much more likely in that exceptionally unlikely scenario is that the devs jumped at the chance and were falling over themselves to do it for free.

Remember, it would take a relatively senior person in VW to make a decision to allow a car of theirs to be licenced to end up in a game. We're talking a global corp here, not some niche car manufacturer looking for any avenue they can to promote their "garden shed" product. Global corps are extremely sensitive to product placement and positioning. A mistake in this respect can cost millions.

The devs have never approached a car maker to include (one of) their cars in LfS... Among others, Intel - also a global corporation - saw the potential of running their competition with LfS... VW needed someone to include their new car into a game/sim to run a competition to win/promote their new car on a three-day event and on relatively short notice, is it so hard to believe they went out to approach developers to do that? Why were still not driving that thing in LfS might be your product placement sensitive global corp at work...

[jbirdaspec]

This is a wrong program code, because this is assuming someone already programmed the three answers to a public annoucement to be those. And as I don't beleive in god (that's why I write his name without capital letters, because he is a mere concept), I don't think such a code exists.

Of course it will make more work for them. But Live For Speed is not their hobby, it is the thing that make them eat, pay their rent, go to clubs etc. You need to have strictness in your work, they have it, that is not the point. More work = more rate of return concerning time/money spent in developping their game, so this is a win-win situation for both. Business is only about win-win situations.

Greetings france from Texas!

I suppose those variables could be keyed in or maybe even acquired from a Poll?????........ Look up ^ That is if it wasn't my half lucid attempt make a programmers joke to begin with.

I'm just sayin'. Just sayin'.

[ColeusRattus]

Well, the one main thing that those who want more information don't take into account, and which is IMHO the most important thing why Scavier is pretty closed up is following:

Just imagine a scenario where Scawen announces a feature he has just yet started to work on. As he get's into it, it becomes obvious that this feature cannot be done for some reason, so he has to cancel it. Wow, that would cause a whole lot of ruckus in these forums, and I dare say the most whining would be coming from those very persons who want more info now.

A similar thing already happened when Scawen announced the new GTR interiors for a patch (think it was V or Y), which didn't make it in that patch, and consequently just recently appeared. Back then, there were quite a lot people complaining about the interiors not being in.

Also I really cannot see any benefit from announcing anything that is done. The most improtant stuff is announced quite early actually, like the scirocco, interior updates, new BL and SO. What more do you need?

Honestly, some people in here remind me of kids with ADD, rocking their chairs, mumbling nonsense as soon as there is nothing new and flashy to catch their attention.
Just lean back and relax. The less time is spent on publishing potential features, the more time can be spent on actually producing them.

Just because you know what might be in the next patch doesn't make it come faster. On the contrary, the time waiting for it would be seem even longer, as you long for a certain feature, and the forums would suddenly burst with "bring the patch out now" threads.

EDIT: Also, as scawen usually posts important things in here that affect LfS' developement cycle, like moving, renovating or becoming father (twice), I for one think that LfS is alive and in continuating developement until Scawen tells us otherwise.

[S14 DRIFT]

No arguing that it's continuing in development Coleus, but at what rate? :o

[ColeusRattus]

At about 0.8 jiggawatts per lifecycle of an invisible pink unicorn

[S14 DRIFT]

:jawdrop:

Whatttttttt? :D

[510N3D]

According to urbandictionary that roughly means that there is no rate, at least not one at a level that you and your tribe wants it to be at. :shrug: Is it really so hard to understand or have you just learned to irgnore the facts while spamming at others threads?

:D

[Zen321]

Greetings france from Texas!

I suppose those variables could be keyed in or maybe even acquired from a Poll?????........ Look up ^ That is if it wasn't my half lucid attempt make a programmers joke to begin with.

I'm just sayin'. Just sayin'.

Greetings Texas from Seattle (I am there for a year :p)

Yeah I know, the only thing is that a poll can not show the real thoughts of people, they just tick what they think it's closest. Basically, we have 1 different opinion per person (pretty much like one different church for each family in the US :p:p:p )

[bandaid]

Well, the one main thing ...<snip>

Bottom line, how hard is it for a Dev to stick their head into General and give us a quick heads up about how things are going? It takes 2 minutes of 'production' time and everyone is happy, the forum's are back abuzz having generated new interest and the whingers (like me) are sated.

It would bring a good dose of happiness back into the forums to boot.

It's really not that much to ask.


Sometimes I wonder if half the people defending the dev's are doing so because they believe what they spout, or if they believe that by 'sticking up for' them they might be keeping the dev's happy = new content... just a thought (of my own). :scratchch :thumb:

[Bandit77]

Sometimes I wonder if half the people defending the dev's are doing so because they believe what they spout, or if they believe that by 'sticking up for' them they might be keeping the dev's happy = new content... just a thought (of my own). :scratchch :thumb:

:nod::thumb:

[ColeusRattus]

Sometimes I wonder if half the people defending the dev's are doing so because they believe what they spout, or if they believe that by 'sticking up for' them they might be keeping the dev's happy = new content... just a thought (of my own). :scratchch :thumb:

That's really not far from the truth. When you have one single coder who is responsible, you better not piss him off to a point where it's simply frustrating for him to work on.

As I see it, and I have about 10 years of Internet forum experience, he has a few alternatives:

1) As is now, say only the most important stuff, that is 100% sure to be in: causes whining for more info.

2) Say nothing at all: That is what those whiners from number one think Scawen is doing, so it would be basically the same concerning the reasons of whining, allthough there might be more of it.

3) Tell us everything he's doing: now that would prove to be desastrous! People would complain if features were abandoned, people would complain about Scawen working on a certain feature and not on one that is more important in their minds, people would complain that he's working to slow and they want the new features now (those same people then also would complain if a feature isnt 100% working once its released), people would complain if he would skip a "sitrep" or two, etc.

Also, I think that two much communication would make the developement of Live for Speed too rigid. Noone in here really knows how Scawen is working, but if I judge him by the way I work, it would be about like this:

He has a master plan of features he'd like to see in LfS. But he doesn't have an exact roadmap for when to code what. The lack of a plan that has to be fulfilled opens up creative possibilities. Perhaps when coding one feature, he gets an idea for another feature that wasn't planned, so he's sidetracked working on that, which would make a carefully crafted plan crumble. Now that looks quite inefficient, and it certainly is, but it leaves space for creativity and improvisation, which in the long run, makes LfS more complete and unique than otheriwse.

So I repeat myself: sit back and relax, enjoy Live for Speed as it is, and look forward to every update, no matter what it does.

[P V L]

Just accept how the developers handle this. :nod: If anything is annoying

think about it, is it worth leaving LFS ? Yes ? So leave for a time you

choose yourself. No ? So stay and take it with patience as I do. :thumb:

Btw, if anybody of you wants me to tell you how to do your jobs

feel free to contact me. :smileypul

[Macfox]

At this point, any bit of news, is better than no news.

No ones holding the dev's to release dates or trying to dictate what should be included or not. I think that pretty clear from the participation in the suggestions and improvement threads.

Is it too much to ask to feed the community with a bit of news once a month or so. Spark a little interest and remind us that things are progressing slowly but surely. The fact this doesn't happen, makes it really easy to conclude there's nothing to report. That may not be the situation, but history tells us a different story.

It's an unpopular view, particularly with the Johnny come lately and optimist club, but it's one worth raising, even if there little chance of the dev's seeing it. :tired:

[gezmoor]

The devs have never approached a car maker to include (one of) their cars in LfS... Among others, Intel - also a global corporation - saw the potential of running their competition with LfS...


Well that's a little different. Intel are involved in PCs. LFS is a PC game. They can be said to be in connected, (if not the same), industries. VW are a car manufacturer. No connection with the Gaming industry at all, (under normal circumstances).


VW needed someone to include their new car into a game/sim to run a competition to win/promote their new car on a three-day event and on relatively short notice, is it so hard to believe they went out to approach developers to do that?


Actually, that does make sense. Specifically the bit about the short notice. It wouldn't surprise me if they went to EA Games or who ever and asked for a car to be knocked up and were told "sorry doesn't fit in with our project life cycle and we're not willing/can't asign resources to do it, (in that time scale). Go talk to xxx". Eventually VW probably finaly heard of LFS and in desperation at wanting any sim at the launch, (as now the decision had been made up high you can believe it was going to happen no matter what!), finally approached them. At which point the LFS devs jumped at the chance.


Why were still not driving that thing in LfS might be your product placement sensitive global corp at work...

Very likely a condition of the development. Probably there are conditions that haven't been met yet or even contractual issues that haven't been ironed out and so it hasn't been released to the game. Even possible there is some dispute, (payment?), that may never be resolved and so it may never make it in to the game !

[obsolum]

Maybe Scawen should just release the next patch when it's done and say: "Here you go, this is the final patch of LFS. I consider the game complete now, there won't be any S3 and there will be no more updates. Enjoy!".

Maybe then people would finally stop whining for updates? If you need updates - or news about coming updates - to keep you interested, then maybe LFS isn't the game for you.

There's a certain game that's been in development for about 7 years now. It was first announced to be released in 2003 I think (maybe earlier). We're almost 2009 now, the game still hasn't come out. The release date has been pushed back time and time again by the developers. The last "update" of the developers so far is that they're aiming for a release in early 2009. A couple of months ago the release date was still scheduled for October 2008. Needless to say, I don't really believe the game will come out in early 2009 either. However, there are a lot of people who have been waiting all these years. And although they whine and complain and get angry about the release dates being pushed back every time (they have every right to), I don't think they're whining as much as some people here. Something to think about...

[chunkyracer]

Is it too much to ask to feed the community with a bit of news once a month or so. Spark a little interest and remind us that things are progressing slowly but surely. The fact this doesn't happen, makes it really easy to conclude there's nothing to report. That may not be the situation, but history tells us a different story.

It´s only easy to conclude, because you want it to, but the history, if based in facts, is quite different:

version W - released Mar 31st 2007
version X- released Jun 8th 2007
version Y - released Dez 21st 2007
version Z - released Jul 2nd 2008

So, if you look at those dates, you´ll see that latest patches were about 6 months apart, and Z was released more or less 5 months ago. I didn´t see anywhere that we won´t have a new patch coming at the end of this year, or any sign of development stoping or even slowing down... In fact, there has been two updates, this month only, regarding the dedicated host, to solve bugs that were reported. Don´t know what you conclude of that, but to me it doesn´t look like an indication that there´s nothing to report.
I must admit that, altough I think that people have the right of stating their views on the future of LFS, all this talk has became quite repetitive and boring, like ,that because some people got bored with LFS, they need to try and create the notion that everybody feels the same, and that LFS is heading to a slow death...

[KOB_CHEESE]

So I repeat myself: sit back and relax, enjoy Live for Speed as it is, and look forward to every update, no matter what it does.

My thoughts exactly - wise words ratty brother :thumb:

[Gunn]

Since the conception of LFS I've come to know this time of year as "silly season", thanks to a few recurring trends on LFS forums.

- Usually around this time of year, or not too long after, LFS enjoys a significant update to its features and some bug fixes, and often some new content or some significant content update.

- Usually around this time of year, or not too long after, a thread or two will be created and some members will complain that they never get enough updates, or things are taking too long, or how unfair it is that they don't get to know what's going on behind the scenes in the Devs work environment, demanding their "rights" and generally bitching about how it sucks to be them in the world of LFS.

- It is not entirely unusual for some members who bitched and moaned initially, to be a short time later crowing about the new updates and how God-like the Devs are, how the latest update includes their new favourite car, track or feature, and can we all make babies with the Devs so that our genes can become a part of any future projects the Devs may participate in.

LFS people can be so cute, can't they? If I had a bigger back yard I'd take many of you home with me to be my pets, and I could feed you biscuits and throw a ball for you occasionally.

[Macfox]

Little under two years we have seen;


Sound adjustments by third party
Increased connection limits
Clutch/Physics improvements/adjustments.
FB02
Additional Interiors
Replay controls
Car balancing
Many small fixes and language updates.

Compared to previous time frames, development has slowed to Duke Nukem forever pace (especially in the content area) and is the basis of much of the concern.



I must admit that, altough I think that people have the right of stating their views on the future of LFS, all this talk has became quite repetitive and boring...

Already....and you've only been around for what... 3 years? :):thumb:

Seriously though, this is what the thread is about, no one's forcing people to read/comment on this thread if it doesn't match your take on the situation.

It's certainly not a competition to compel others to adopt the same thoughts... That battle was never going to be won given "sympathisers" would rarely visit this forum for the exact reasons we are debating.

[Macfox]

Since the conception of LFS I've come to know this time of year as "silly season", thanks to a few recurring trends on LFS forums.


Why because people expect a Xmas surprise. The Dev's made that bed a long time ago.

We shouldn't confuse the two issues community engagement and demands for releases/updates.

[ColeusRattus]

You forgot the complete BL and SO overhauls in your list ;)

[Gunn]

Why because people expect a Xmas surprise. The Dev's made that bed a long time ago.

We shouldn't confuse the two issues community engagement and demands for releases/updates.To me, these aren't even issues.

[Macfox]

Do elaborate?

[Gunn]

Do elaborate?
No.

[Gener_AL (UK)]

LFS people can be so cute, can't they? If I had a bigger back yard I'd take many of you home with me to be my pets, and I could feed you biscuits and throw a ball for you occasionally.

Seeing as its silly season, I have to ask... do you have cookies and if so how large is that back yard?

/me runs off to chase the cat

As stated in my other post in this thread , dont want to chose any of the options ,but if the poll had a "LFS is like doritos chilli heatwave tree" i could of voted for that.

LFS is seemingly plodding on as its always done. Which is nice :thumb:

Imagine if scawen was updating the physics every other month breaking peoples sets, racing styles, hotlaps/lfsworld.
Then you would get "oh the tyre wear in ax17 was better then aa1b "
"The blanacing is broke again in X group of cars"
"fuel consuption has gone up for my UF1 !!!"

That to me would be more upheaval. And im sure this has already been pointed out.

I think ChunkyRacer made a few good points, a few posts back.
Its always the ones that are bored that are complaining. Not that im copmlaning about those complaints , its just mm obvious why they do ;)
They dont RACE enough imo.

If i would leave this post there.^
Im pretty sure i'd get hte reply but i dont want to race the same stuff "again"
well neither do i but, once i get that feeling and im side by side with a few laps to go with the leader, t could be racing round disney land, its the feeling that counts, not the track not the last patch, the feeling, the racing !

Trying to recapture your lost passion is somthing akin to being married i would imagine... mmm if i left it here would i start a divorce somewhere in the world....

Its not just onesided thing, the devs or LFS cant give you that passion for the racing feel.. your just as much respoible for that as the game is, the devs are, so on and so forth.

I dont know why, but i want to end with an alley'oop with my post here quoting a Will Ferrel film semi-pro

"everybody love everybody"

[Jordan2007]

I Reckon Most people will move on after a while.. as you can see on the forum most people want Real Cars, Even though LFS Is starting to get real cars.. For many people its to late, and people are looking for other games, The Only way im gonna play Live for speed again is if they update the weather or a few cars but im already looking at other sims.

On the other hand, many people Are Getting bored of other sims and probally are interested in buying Live for speed

[pastorius]

http://www.lfsforum.net/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg185/sprojojoing/LFS-WhichWASNice.jpg%5B/IMG%5D+1

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg185/sprojojoing/LFS-WhichWASNice.jpg

[Gills4life]

However slow the development is, LFS is still the best sim you can buy imo. Even if the updates are slow coming, they are still slowly making this already fantastic racing sim even better.

[NightShift]

You forgot the complete BL and SO overhauls in your list ;)

When/where was this announced? I'm not questioning it, just curious :)