Video Card Help Please (thrills on a budget)

[srdsprinter]

Hi All,
My name's Stu and I'm new to these forums, thou I've been an avid LFS player for some time now.

My goal is to boost the performance of my computer, and gaming experience by changing out my video card. I currently have:

Dell Dimension 4500
Pentium 4 1.8GHz
512MB DDR SDRAM
80GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive
Logitech Momo Force Feedback Wheel
Sony 400Watt Mini Hi-Fi Component System (for pc and ps2 speakers via composite cables)
64MB GeForce4 MX420 w/tv out
Dell W1700 17'' HDTV Monitor @ 1280X768 60Hz (widescreen tv/monitor that I use for triple duty (pc, tv, ps2)


My system is fairly clean, and runs well enough on LFS and CS:S, HL2. I want to upgrade my video card to a 256MB unit that can boost the "prettyness" of the graphics on LFS, as well as slightly better accomadate any proE or Autocad work I might be doing (mech engr student).

The monitor supports DVI, and analog (which I'm currently using). I'm not looking to set the world on fire, only a modest update at a modest price. I want to keep the price as low as possible, as this is a 4-year old pc, and I will be upgrading to a new pc with a nice pci-express type graphics card soon enough. *I might want to be able to play BF2 on this pc at some point. I am a budget minded college student who games, but lives on his pc. I feel my graphics card is the current weak link in my set-up, and would like to upgrade without going overboard.

Has anyone here had any experience with these cards, or have any recommendations? Thanks!

#1 eVGA GeForce5500 Video Card (256MB, AGP 8X, DVI, 2D/3D w/tv-out) Core Clock 270MHz, Memory Clock 400MHz.
Price: $54.00- $15 mail-in rebate = $39.00 after mail-in rebate!
pros: awesome price.
cons: not supported for bf2. (i heard a way to get around this though), ?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130197&ATT=14-130-197&CMP=OTC-pr1c3grabb3r

#2 Sapphire Radeon 9600XT (128MB, 128-bit DDR, AGP 4x, 8x) Core Clock 500MHz, Memory Clock 600MHz, RAMDAC 400MHz.
Price: $87.00
pros: looks good, fast clock speeds. ?
cons: 128MB memory..., ?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102510

#3 Sapphire Radeon 9600 Atlantis (256MB, 128-bit DDR, AGP) Core Clock 325MHz
Price: $68.00
pros: 256MB, supports BF2, ?
cons: question over 128 or 256MB, ?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102320

#4 eVGA GeForce 6600GT 128MB, 128-bit DDR, AGP, DVI, Core Clock 500MHz, Memory Clock 900MHz
Price: $119.00 after mail-in rebate
pros: new, speed, power
cons: power supply Minimum 350watts, available 4-pin Molex Hard Drive power dongle

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130220

All of these have DVI, which is a priority.
All (most now) of these cost under 100 dollars, which is a big plus.
All of these appear to be a large improvement over my current card.
Anyone have experience with either these chipsets, or something similar cost wise. I'm willing to really only go up to 100 bucks right now, but only if it would be a large improvement over the GeForce 5500FX listed.

Will these support my display and display resolution? The ati site didn't list the 1280x768 resolution? Anybody know/can check? Which should I buy?

Thanks so much,
Stu

[srdsprinter]

This is what worried me about the radeon cards.

http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9600/radeon9600pro/specs.html

*16:9 aspect ratio monitors are supported on 1920x1080 and 848x480 on Windows® XP, Windows® 2000 and Windows® ME. The complete list of resolutions depends on the driver version and operating system. NOTE: resolutions are limited by the performance of the attached monitor.

:x

[Leifde]

256MB cards can be slower so don't decide a graphics card just on that. The 9600XT has the highest clock and memory speeds out of them so I'd go with that.

Don't worry about the resolutions with the monitor, you've not got it setup as high as that or as low as that so you'll be fine. :)

[srdsprinter]

256MB cards can be slower so don't decide a graphics card just on that. The 9600XT has the highest clock and memory speeds out of them so I'd go with that.

Don't worry about the resolutions with the monitor, you've not got it setup as high as that or as low as that so you'll be fine. :)

I'm currently running at 1280x768. :(

[AndroidXP]

Yep, 128 or 256MB doesn't make that much of a difference (now) and pretty much anything is better than the MX440. The 9600XT sounds reasonable, alteast if playing BF2 is important to you. The GF 5xxx series is pretty crap and that's also the reason it's so cheap.

Anyways, every of these cards would make your LFS experience quite better, not only because you could turn on more AA/AF, but also because they support HVS, contrary to your MX440. HVS gives the CPU more time for the physics so it can make quite a difference to your FPS.
1000 posts, suckers! ^_^

[Forbin]

If you can afford a $140 card, the 6600GT 128MB AGP would really be best. It's significantly better than all the cards you listed.

As for the resolution support, I would be very surprised if the ATI cards did not support the full range of 16:9 resolutions. I think that's actually what they mean in the sentence you quoted, the range supported.

[Leifde]

I'm currently running at 1280x768. :(Ah, I misread it. You can always contact ATI and ask them if it supports the resolutions. I'll look for a good graphics card under $100 and post it here soon.

EDIT: I found one: 3DFuzion GeForce FX 6200 / 128MB DDR / AGP 8x / DVI / VGA / TV-Out / Video Card (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1522065&CatId=0)
It'll be way better than you have now. :) It's cheaper than the 9600XT but it needs a 300W power supply, I'd recommend opening up your computer and checking what it is, it should say on it.

[srdsprinter]

If you can afford a $140 card, the 6600GT 128MB AGP would really be best. It's significantly better than all the cards you listed.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130220

6600GT sounds Very Cool. Found one on newegg.com for $119.00 after mail-in rebate. Sounds good. It's on the table for discussion now. New questions arise though.

Will these cards need to be connected to the power supply with an atachment other than the AGP slot? If so will my pc have this?

This model dell has a 250Watt average Power Supply. I understand that it is completely adequate for all cards that need the 300 watt power supply, as the dell actually has a peak over 300. Something along these lines, it is not to worry.

I've been rethinking my budget considerations, and 120ish wont break the bank, but I really just want something that will work well with the computer, and hold me over till I can really get a new 'next-gen' pc (dual-core, pci-express graphics, and all the bells-and-whistles).

[Vain]

1. 6600GT is a good bang-for-buck because it's technically identical to the 6800 and can be VBIOS-flashed to become a 6800, which really has a lot of power.
(Though please note that flashing the VBIOS will void the guarantee)
2. You may try the 250W power suply, but most propably this won't be enough. Think in orders of 350W.
3. The video card needs an extra power-connector. Search for a 4-blank-pin male connector on your power suply unit.

Vain

[J.B.]

1. 6600GT is a good bang-for-buck because it's technically identical to the 6800 and can be VBIOS-flashed to become a 6800, which really has a lot of power.


I think you are confusing something here. 6200 PCIe versions can become 6600, and 6800GS AGP can become 6800 XT (?) but I don't think 6600GT can be modded to anything else.

[srdsprinter]

6600GT looks really nice. Since my Dell has 250 watt power supply, the card nessicitates a new power supply.

What do I need to look for in a power supply? What is the connector to the card from the power supply, 4 pin? How much will this cost.

I want the GT, but if its going to also nessesitate a $100 investment in a power supply, then I really think the 9600XT is the way for me to go. 200+ dollars is not what I'm looking for at this time... :schwitz:

[mosquito25]

For the 6600GT, the power connecor is the same as for HD (at least for mine : Point of View 6600GT, but I'm pretty sure for all 6600GT)

For the PSU, I think a good 400 or 450W is enough, maybe a 350W. (6600GT uses 50W in 3D as I remember) : http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/geforce6600gt-oc_3.html
300W is a bit short, I've had a Fortron 300W, was heating up.

Edit : CG power cons updated

[srdsprinter]

:) Thanks for the link! Interesting stuff, I'm looking up Power Supplies, and finding they aren't too expensive!

Does it make any difference if the video card is AGP or PCI-express?

[mosquito25]

Lol, yes ^^

The slots are physically different, not compatible ^^

So if your mobo is AGP, don't buy a PCI-E ;)

[srdsprinter]

Lol, yes ^^

The slots are physically different, not compatible ^^

So if your mobo is AGP, don't buy a PCI-E ;)

yes, I meant the power consumption, power supply hook-up, voltage in, heat out.

[AndroidXP]

The PCI-E version doesn't need an extra power supply and is higher clocked, IIRC.

[Forbin]

6600GT looks really nice. Since my Dell has 250 watt power supply, the card nessicitates a new power supply.

What do I need to look for in a power supply? What is the connector to the card from the power supply, 4 pin? How much will this cost.

I want the GT, but if its going to also nessesitate a $100 investment in a power supply, then I really think the 9600XT is the way for me to go. 200+ dollars is not what I'm looking for at this time... :schwitz:
I wouldn't worry about the PSU. As long as you have a free 4-pin connector, you'll be fine. I'm running a much higher-end system than you with a 250W PSU. All of my power connectors are used up but it runs great. My specs are as follows:

AMD Athlon XP 3000+ 2.1GHz (Barton core)
512MB PC3200 DDR SDRAM
ASUS A7N-8X motherboard
GF 6800GT 128MB AGP
120GB IBM/Hitachi 120GXP
60GB IBM 60GXP
CD-RW burner

[srdsprinter]

I wouldn't worry about the PSU. As long as you have a free 4-pin connector, you'll be fine. I'm running a much higher-end system than you with a 250W PSU. All of my power connectors are used up but it runs great. My specs are as follows:

AMD Athlon XP 3000+ 2.1GHz (Barton core)
512MB PC3200 DDR SDRAM
ASUS A7N-8X motherboard
GF 6800GT 128MB AGP
120GB IBM/Hitachi 120GXP
60GB IBM 60GXP
CD-RW burner


Awesome!

If it is too much for the system I did find some seemingly pretty nice ~400watt systems for around $40 so it wouldn't be too much more of an investment.

I am definatly leaning strongly to the 6600GT now. The eVGA model, for $119.00 at newegg.com seems to be what I'm leaning towards. 380+ reviews at 5 out of 5 'eggs'. Only cons seem to be that they run hot on some PC's.


BTW: What are the 4 pin hard drive connectors? i.e. 3.3 volts? 5 volts?

Thanks so much to everyone here for your help!

[the_angry_angel]

The molex connections have +3.3v, +5v, +12v and ground rails as I understand it. But this is getting a bit electronic-y and I'm out of my depth.

[Forbin]

Yep, I believe you're right, taa, along with ground. Thus 4 pins.

[Barroso]

that 6600gt will be choked there, that cpu is a bottleneck for that card, i should know i have a p4 2.4 and its still not enough.

[Roadie]

oh, i just sold my 6600GT to someone for $95...

But yah, 6600GT is a good card..

Also. you CAN NOT change the power supply in 99% of the dells, they use a propritary atx connector. If you change it your whole system will go up in a flaming ball of pc parts.

[mosquito25]

Yes, the 6600GT GPU gets pretty hot with standard heatsink (mine was 73°c when playing or benchmarking), but a Zalman VF700 Al-Cu gave me a full 20°C gain (GPU heat 53°C) with far better overclocking. Checked with SpeedFan, so I had a 12mn graph).

As I know there's only 1 restriction : that heatsink needs a wide case (at least on AGP cards)

And the true reason for changing was the noise level only :D, not the heat (73° is not so high for a GPU)

here is a pic : http://img195.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dvc011966lc.jpg
In my case (210mm wide) : http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dvc011944qp.jpg
Edit: you can see the card's power connector on the right side, same as HD

Also. you CAN NOT change the power supply in 99% of the dells, they use a propritary atx connector. If you change it your whole system will go up in a flaming ball of pc parts. :jawdrop: omg, thanks for that, Roadie.

[srdsprinter]

oh, i just sold my 6600GT to someone for $95...

But yah, 6600GT is a good card..

Also. you CAN NOT change the power supply in 99% of the dells, they use a propritary atx connector. If you change it your whole system will go up in a flaming ball of pc parts.

I've just read about this, it seems right around the time my model came out, the dimension 4500, the atx connector was being switched to a standard atx. No idea if mine is standard or not.

I'd hate to risk hurting the card or computer if it was underpowered. Since my processor is going to limit the performance of the card anyway, and the dimension 4500 only has AGP 4X, I think the 6600gt might be overkill for my needs.

The 9600xt might be more balanced card for my rig... :shrug:

[SladiVadi]

The molex connections have +3.3v, +5v, +12v and ground rails as I understand it. But this is getting a bit electronic-y and I'm out of my depth.
Nope, it's 12V, 5V, 12V-Ground, 5V-Ground. :sun:

[Jakg]

Yes, the 6600GT GPU gets pretty hot with standard heatsink (mine was 73°c when playing or benchmarking), but a Zalman VF700 Al-Cu gave me a full 20°C gain (GPU heat 53°C) with far better overclocking. Checked with SpeedFan, so I had a 12mn graph).

As I know there's only 1 restriction : that heatsink needs a wide case (at least on AGP cards)

And the true reason for changing was the noise level only :D, not the heat (73° is not so high for a GPU)Hmmmm, i will inherit 2x 6600 Gt's (XFX PCI-E 128 Mb) from my dad and a SLi mobo soon, should i need to buy a specil cooling mechanism?

[SparkyDave]

most if not all GFX cards come with a thermal pad placed between the gpu and heatsink , these pads are quick and cheap for production but will never perform as well as some good well applied heatsink paste like artic silver . this is probably the case for every heatsink (inc CPU) in a "brand name" pc.
Its not hard to take off your GFX card heatsink and clean the surfaces (or lapp them if you feel extreme ;) ) properly apply some thermal compound and with the same heatsink see improved tempratures .

However if your cards not showing any signs of overheating and your not interested in overclocking its better to just leave it as it is.

SD.

[P5YcHoM4N]

most if not all GFX cards come with a thermal pad placed between the gpu and heatsink , these pads are quick and cheap for production but will never perform as well as some good well applied heatsink paste like artic silver . this is probably the case for every heatsink (inc CPU) in a "brand name" pc.
Its not hard to take off your GFX card heatsink and clean the surfaces (or lapp them if you feel extreme ;) ) properly apply some thermal compound and with the same heatsink see improved tempratures .

However if your cards not showing any signs of overheating and your not interested in overclocking its better to just leave it as it is.

SD.
I find the cleaning whipes you get in first aid kits work well for cleaning off stuff like that.

@Forbin:

Your PC may be able to run on 250watt, but you have a CPU that runs on a low voltage. The P4 uses a much higher vcore and draws more power. It needs a bigger PSU.

@srdsprinter:

Most new cards wouldn't run on a 250watt PSU. And if they do it wouldn't be very stable. You'll be stuck with a low end card, or Dell still sell parts, but a better PSU from them (last time I checked you could buy upgrades from them).

[AndroidXP]

Hmmmm, i will inherit 2x 6600 Gt's (XFX PCI-E 128 Mb) from my dad and a SLi mobo soon, should i need to buy a specil cooling mechanism?
I have my second (MSI) 6600GT now, the first one started to show artifacts (funky polygons all over the place) and then finally died due to overheating. Got it replaced but the new one had a ridicolously ineffective cooler, too (actually the very same as on the first card).

The card got into 90°C+ and ofcourse started showing artifacts like the old one did. It was definitely the cards fault because everything else was running fine and dandy, CPU got to ~50°C, the rest was 30-40°C, so no excessive heat buildup in the case.

So, not too long ago I finally decided to shell out a few €€€ and buy a Zalman VGA cooler. Shortly after, the nasty 8000+ RPM southbridge cooler was replaced by a Zalman passive cooler too. Dang, no more overheating and much more silent PC overall.

Conclusion: The standard cooler on 6600GT's may suck. The one from MSI cards is definitely undersized.

[mosquito25]

Hmmmm, i will inherit 2x 6600 Gt's (XFX PCI-E 128 Mb) from my dad and a SLi mobo soon, should i need to buy a specil cooling mechanism?
IMO, with 2 card, probably.
But I'm a kind of noisemaniac ;) Now I can sleep near my PC, with the standard heatsink, it was almost impossible.

Edit : 53° burning, with the Zalman in 5v ;)

[Roadie]

srdsprinter -

oh duh, I just remembered this.. I have a dell 8600 in my closet somewhere, it has a 250W psu. I had a 6600GT in it for a while, and it ran it flawlessly.

[Forbin]

Nope, it's 12V, 5V, 12V-Ground, 5V-Ground. :sun:
And you need multiple grounds because...?

Only reasons I can think of are less resistance and less heat. But oddly enough I think you may be right... 2 black wires.

[srdsprinter]

:) Thanks to all the help I've gotten from everyone on these boards! With everyone's advice I've decided to upgrade my system with....

a sapphire Radeon 9600XT 128MB AGP video card and an additional stick of 512MB of RAM.

I decided to go fairly modest with the upgrades, due to:
my slow AGP 4X video slot:pillepall
my slow PC2100 RAM :(
my slow P4 1.8GHz :shrug:
my 60Hz monitor (1280x768 HDTV widescreen :scratchch , analog and digital inputs)
I'm planning on building a new pc late this summer, with lots of bells and whistles (dual core amd, sli ready, etc) So my parents might inherit this pc later, or it might be a backup for friends to race me on.

Anyway, the parts have been processed and are on the way!

What are some simply ways of quantifying the improvements my upgrades make?

I usually pull 35-40+ fps in single player and hotlapping on lfs with no hvs, aa, or af. This fps drops rapidly with more cars online racing. CS:S runs smoothly on low settings with high detail on the character models. I dunno what fps I'm getting tho. I have now experience with the lfs benchmark or anything of that nature.

I'll be happy with any improvements the video card makes to fps or detail level :)

Thanks again for all the help!

[Forbin]

Check out the LFS benchmark. http://lfsbench.iron.eu.org/?c=news

Another easy way is to load up a bunch of AI's on a particular track and start yourself in the back. Make note of the FPS before the lights go green. This is pretty much as low as your FPS is ever going to get.

[AndroidXP]

I usually pull 35-40+ fps in single player and hotlapping on lfs with no hvs, aa, or af. This fps drops rapidly with more cars online racing. CS:S runs smoothly on low settings with high detail on the character models. I dunno what fps I'm getting tho. I have now experience with the lfs benchmark or anything of that nature.Make sure it's activated with the new card.

[srdsprinter]

What A DIFFERENCE! Ah, this is awesome. The difference is absolutely astounding. I went from maybe 35+ fps in hotlapping, with minimal graphics setting.

Once I swapped the cards out, and got the latest driver, my benchmark scores had a significant improvement. How significant, over 50% increase!
For the minimum settings, I went from an almost unplayable 20.9 fps:
2006-02-21 09:05:11 - LFS
Frames: 2192 - Time: 104485ms - Avg: 20.979 - Min: 13 - Max: 33

to a much more reasonable 34fps:
2006-02-22 21:23:40 - LFS
Frames: 3528 - Time: 103671ms - Avg: 34.030 - Min: 25 - Max: 52

I was happy, but playing arounding with the settings in Catalyst 6.02 showed that hvs (by a different name), wasn't on yet. A switch on, and another try netted a Much better 52.9fps:
2006-02-23 17:07:32 - LFS
Frames: 5478 - Time: 103547ms - Avg: 52.903 - Min: 33 - Max: 75


The max settings jumped over 200% from almost 8 to almost 18. My personal settings are somewhere imbetween and averaging 40+ now, with aa and af turned on.
Clean track nets 70+ fps and even with 15 others online together, the frame rate stays above 20 even at the start.

In recap, for 130 USD, a radeon 9600xt and 512MB of RAM, got me a 100%+ increase in fps on the benchmarks, huge benefits in gameplay and increased graphics. The stock card was a GeForce MX420 64MB AGP graphics card. All this with only AGP 4X graphics, 1.8GHz, pc2100 RAM(slow), and a slow motherboard.

Thanks again to everyone with their support and ideas!!!

[Charic]

Hi srdsprinter.........:thumb:

Not exactly the same cards, but I have just upgraded from a GeForce 4Ti 4200 64MB to a GeForce 6200V+ 256MB and lfs works fine until I try to race/drive? All graphics are in place for the menus and option screens, just the game play is messed up (Really messed up I`ve never seen such a mis-mash of colours all scrambled on my screen.its hard to explain the image, but is visible to others via web cam, and they agree!! :scratchch )thats on-line, off-line and single player.
I`ve reverted back to the GeForce4 and using the same, but freshly instaled `forceware` drivers, the gameplay is ok. So definately having some sort of problem here with my system and the new card. However, all other games / programs ect work fine, only lfs is not working???????
I`m frantically searching for a solution, and would like to re-fit the 6200, but need a remedy...........

As I said, not exactly the same cards, but just good info......maybe someone reading this will guide me to my solution, I hope you find yours!

[Forbin]

@Forbin:

Your PC may be able to run on 250watt, but you have a CPU that runs on a low voltage. The P4 uses a much higher vcore and draws more power. It needs a bigger PSU.
I just checked the specs on the Intel website. The old Socket 423 chips ran at 1.75V. The Socket 478 chips dropped to the 1.5V range and then the 1.3V range when they moved to .90 nm. The current 65 nm chips on LGA775 are still in that same range.

My Socket 462 Athlon XP, on the other hand, has a rated voltage of 1.65V. My motherboard won't let it run any lower than 1.74V. Low voltage? Hardly.

I do realize P4's are extremely inefficient with their power usage and do draw quite a bit more than Athlons, but I felt it necessary to correct your statement.

@Charic: Which version of the drivers are you using?

[anttt69]

9600pro or XT cheap & cheerful plus it plays BF2.
If u are planning to upgrade anyway then this wont dent your budget
& still does the business.

[WIGGA]

I have 1 question!
Can I play with this Card:http://www.hardwareschotte.de/hardware/preise/proid_8025717/preis_GAINWARD+PowerPack+Ultra2350PCX+Bliss+GS
And a AMD Athlon64 3200+@3800+ LfS with 8xAA/16AF on 1248x1024 with enough FPS

[Charic]

Hi Forbin.........
I`m using `Forceware` 84.43 at present...........have also used 84.21 & 81.98
Today I have reinstalled the GeForce 6200/84.43 Drivers and also re-installed lfs? In its basic setup the image should show the error that I`m getting. Looking just below name/player where the 3 planes meet is the focus and the graphics rotate clockwise at this position..pretty strange !! Also, this only happens in LFS, nothing else??
Take care
Charichttp://www.chasriches.plus.com/lfs/lfs%20error.JPG

ps........Fully registered S2, but pic shows just after install?

[Forbin]

Hmm, very strange. What motherboard do you have?

[Forbin]

I have 1 question!
Can I play with this Card:http://www.hardwareschotte.de/hardware/preise/proid_8025717/preis_GAINWARD+PowerPack+Ultra2350PCX+Bliss+GS
And a AMD Athlon64 3200+@3800+ LfS with 8xAA/16AF on 1248x1024 with enough FPS
That card is more than sufficient to run LFS with those settings.

[Charic]

.....Forbin........
been out , hence the delay in comms?
I`m using the following.....
Jetway MoBo V400DB (VIA KT400/KT400A chipset) AMD Athlon 2400+CPU & 768MB(pc2700)RAM XP Pro SP2......Like I said, this works fine for every use I have at present, but just lfs is having the problem. Ive even re-tested the Gf4Ti4200 and that still works, but when back to the Gf6200, I get a similar pattern to the one displayed in my previous link!!

here you should find details of the AGP http://www.digitalyes.com.au/prodView.asp?idproduct=19872

[WIGGA]

That card is more than sufficient to run LFS with those settings.

OK thanks, but i think I buy the Golden Sample Goes like Hell edition that is @
485/1300MHZ :D:pillepall:smileypul

[P5YcHoM4N]

I just checked the specs on the Intel website. The old Socket 423 chips ran at 1.75V. The Socket 478 chips dropped to the 1.5V range and then the 1.3V range when they moved to .90 nm. The current 65 nm chips on LGA775 are still in that same range.

My Socket 462 Athlon XP, on the other hand, has a rated voltage of 1.65V. My motherboard won't let it run any lower than 1.74V. Low voltage? Hardly.

I do realize P4's are extremely inefficient with their power usage and do draw quite a bit more than Athlons, but I felt it necessary to correct your statement.

@Charic: Which version of the drivers are you using?
Hah, I forget I was using an XP-M. I could run it at 1.5v stock, and with a little play time got it down to ~1.45v, though I rarely ran it at that.

At all depends on the core, but then I was comparing the old P4's to AXP's, if you change the generation then I can say that my current A64 runs at 1.375v (could go lower but no need), and that Optrons run at ~1.3v, the X2's and the FX's also run around that.

[Forbin]

@Charic: If it works with the 4200 and not with the 6200, my guess is you got a bad card. You could try underclocking it and seeing if that helps/fixes it. That's usually the kind of thing that happens when A) the drivers are bad/wrong or B) the GPU and/or RAM is overclocked or C) the GPU and/or RAM is bad. If underclocking fixes the problem, you know the card is bad and you can send it back knowing that the replacement will (probably) work.

EDIT: Then again... you said it only happens with LFS. Stumped again... Still, try underclocking it.

[P5YcHoM4N]

Do you have the 6200 with turbocache? If so bin it. They share the RAM like intergrated graphics. Unless you have the version which has 64mb onboard RAM (Can't remember the version number, but you'd be able to see the RAM chips), in which case you can flash it to a none turbocache version, which is a lot better ;)

[Forbin]

Do you have the 6200 with turbocache? If so bin it. They share the RAM like intergrated graphics. Unless you have the version which has 64mb onboard RAM (Can't remember the version number, but you'd be able to see the RAM chips), in which case you can flash it to a none turbocache version, which is a lot better ;)
I was under the impression that the PCI-E version was Turbocache, not the AGP one. I could be wrong, though.

[P5YcHoM4N]

Hmm... you know, I'm not sure. I'll have to check. But you're probably right.

[Charic]

##P5YcHoMaN and Forbin.....Hi Guys.thanks for keeping up with me?
I installed my 6200 and downloaded LFS on my Sons 64Bit AMD 3200+ Asus K8V-X-SE MoBo and and guess what.no problems? However, installing my Sons Radeon 9250 on my machine is giving me slower fps on my other favourite sim, which is not good news. So having reinstalled all AGP cards to their respective machines, I`m back to square One!! but knowing that the 6200 will run LFS, but not on my system..........Ho Hum!.i`ll keep looking and testing
Cheers for now

[Dennisjr13]

I have the same computer (Dimension 4500) and recently bought a 6600GT. I had a Geforce4 4200Ti before and the improvement was amazing. I would reccomend going with the 6600GT (good prices on http://www.newegg.com/)

[P5YcHoM4N]

##P5YcHoMaN and Forbin.....Hi Guys.thanks for keeping up with me?
I installed my 6200 and downloaded LFS on my Sons 64Bit AMD 3200+ Asus K8V-X-SE MoBo and and guess what.no problems? However, installing my Sons Radeon 9250 on my machine is giving me slower fps on my other favourite sim, which is not good news. So having reinstalled all AGP cards to their respective machines, I`m back to square One!! but knowing that the 6200 will run LFS, but not on my system..........Ho Hum!.i`ll keep looking and testing
Cheers for now
Have you done the basics. Updated BIOS (I know a couple of mobo's had problems with the 6x00 range), updated all drivers and such? As if it's only that game. And only that PC all I can think is that. Also what OS do you use, I can tell it's XP, but Home, Pro, MC, 64, Pre-SP1, SP1, SP2?

If they are the same on both PC's you tried the card in, then I'd say it was another piece of hardware, and my next guess would be mobo.
Oh, that and is your PSU up to spec?

If they all are then I'm at a loss. All that comes to mind (after thinking about the fact you tried another card in there) is it's either the PSU not pushing the power you need, or your mobo is having compatabality issues.

[Charic]

Hi P5YcHoMaN.......
......Jetway MoBo V400DB (VIA KT400/KT400A chipset) Windows XP Pro SP2.
Have upgraded BIOS from A02.2 to A04.............and running the `Forceware` 84.43 drivers......and PSU 400Watts( Not sure what your thought is on the power to AGP? there are no additional power leads, I`m supposing your on about the BIOS settings for power?....as you can see, the technical side of tweaking has`nt been adopted just yet??)
I have AGP slot x1 support AGP 3.0 & 8X mode on the Mobo?

3-11 Miscellaneous Control(Mobo Manual)

This section is for setting CPU Frequency/Voltage Control.......

AGP VddQ Select 1.5V (Default)

manual says........"AGP VddQ Select
This item allows you to select 1.5V of the AGP 4X/8X VGA card. The choice are: 1.5V, 1.6V."

Its not a big jump to change the settings! Although this AGP is not fitted with any fan, just a large ALU Heatsink.

I`m certain, I`ve done all I can for now, may just have to run LFS from the other computer for now. Maybe after a clean install/format ect things might be different.......However, I dont want to format just yet! I`ll also keep looking for more info here and on the www. Thanks to you and Forbin for you input so far.
Take care
Chas

[Forbin]

I have the same computer (Dimension 4500) and recently bought a 6600GT. I had a Geforce4 4200Ti before and the improvement was amazing. I would reccomend going with the 6600GT (good prices on http://www.newegg.com/)
He doesn't want to shop from newegg, though. He's from across the pond. :)

@Charic: Since your problem appears to be hardware related, I don't think formatting would do anything to fix it.

[P5YcHoM4N]

Hmm, well, I am at a total loss. Nothing jumps out to me as being out of place. I'll continue to mull it over, but I can't see anythng that could be the cause. If anything redownload a fresh copy of the game and install it to a different folder and see if it still does it. But that sort of problem is usally a driver issue.

I guess you could try driver cleaner, remove all graphics card drivers then reinstall them. If that doesn't work. You've got me.

[Dennisjr13]

He doesn't want to shop from newegg, though. He's from across the pond. :)

Just sayin that I have the same computer as him, and after I upgraded to the 6600GT, the performance improved ALOT, many games that I could only run on low settings now run at high resolution (32-bit), best quality, and amazing sound.

[Charic]

Hi........Ive fixed my system, but not good news, and no help for others? I just re-installed my GeForce4TI4200 card and all is well again!
I had help here, and from other on-line contacts, and were all miffed as to what the problem was.......Ive changed DirectX/AGP Bus Drivers/MoBo Drivers/Omega /Forceware/ fresh installing LFS/different computers, but cannot run LFS&GF6200 on present system???????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????

[Charic]

Hooray..fixed it???
I good friend of mine suggested that I recheck the X AGP Transfer Mode, but on my system is blue-greyed out. Then after looking at the images decided that it was an image refresh problem, and further suggested that I try the compatibility mode wizard.
Unfortunately none of these options proved any good, except I noticed a small change in the BIOS from Init Graphic Setup from PCI to AGP.but alas still no change.
So I finally went into the LFS Options again, and just by luck/chance I first changed the HARDWARE VERTEX SHADING from ON to OFF and guess what
F I X E D .
So there it is, the error was within my own options settings and not the card after all?

Many thanks to all who helped and advised me
Charic