Progress report thread (no real information in it though) [Archive]

detail

2nd February 2006, 16:06

It's not what Americans think. It's what the vast majority of people seem to think these days internationally. Especially with the new generations being into big explosions, hip hop and hollywood. They need to be kept entertained and motorsport doesn't do it for them. All my life I've stuck to my guns and tried to get as many people into motorsport as I can but they just aren't interested. I always get the same responses "Why do you enjoy watching cars go round in circles?!", "Why don't you just go and watch cars on the road?" and other ridiculous statements. I got those sort of responses more in high school though. As you get older you become more open minded and respect others views. But kids, unless they inherit the passion for motorsport generally just don't like it.
I think it depends on the age and "habits" taken very early. Those who mastered racing, music, whatever particular craft, learned the basics and learned to enjoy it in childhood from parents. There are many stories of jazz musicians whose fathers were fond of jazz, listened to it and took their boys to concerts in clubs. The same for motorsports, IMO.

Breizh

2nd February 2006, 16:20

Most people like to vent their anger. Some of those like to fist fight. Of those who do fight, some know martial arts, and of these, a fraction follow them to black belt, and some beyond.

All you need is a little coordination, and to have fun while learning it. It's safe to say fast cars and motorcycles will always be made.. that says something about human nature.

Ball Bearing Turbo

2nd February 2006, 16:57

A little while ago, there are more people viewing this forum than there are racing on public sercervers in S2. :shrug:

Well, I work during the day 9-5. And I can get away with the forums here a bit to give my brain a break from coding occasionally. However playing LFS @ work is not a good idea LOL. So as it turns out I get to watch the graph spike a few hours before I get to go home, then by the time the kids go to bed etc all I have to choose from are a few drift servers and usually the FOX. I like the road cars myself. Occasionally like the GTRs.

Almost enough to make me take up drifting just so I can interact with human racers. The way it is they should make crickets in the track ambience so when I am all alone, or there's one dude practicing on the oppostite side of the track, I can hear the crickets chirping to make it feel like at least some life form is there.

(Tristan before you hit me I said ALMOST lol)

deggis

2nd February 2006, 21:09

IMO rFactor sounds how a racing simulation should. Doesn't give as much info as LFS but sounds gorgeous. Victor needs to fix the underlying tones and tweak the way they loop a bit more, then I'd say add at least 5-6 sounds on top. This can be anything from clutch noises to gravel hitting the car.

We just need more variation than. bruuuuuuuuuum, bruuuuuuuuuuum, bruuuuuuuuuum, bruuuuuuuum, BRAAAAAM (downshifting). bruuuuuuuuuuuuum, bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuum.....
Scavier should hide Nakkitartsani to make new sounds for LFS S2 Final / S3 (I'm referring to that lfs_nakkisounds.avi :D).

Mogar

2nd February 2006, 21:54

Well, I stopped driving on LFS for a while. I really got frustated seing that ppl are exploiting physics faults (not only aero.... I've NEVER seen a DTM or similar "gtr" car with locked differential), and to be competitive, you need to follow the same way.

This is making LFS unrealistic, and made me loose interest on LFS for a while. Surelly when a new patch is released I will try it as soon as I can, but for now, I stopped with LFS.

I hope that the situation get better, because I someway like the way that things are on LFS (a simulator really focused on physics and multi player, and without comercial pressures), but it can't be a excuse to close our eyes to other offerings on this market or to let the bugs the way they are now for a long time.

Breizh

3rd February 2006, 03:50

You brazilians sure complain a lot :razz:

Tweaker

3rd February 2006, 03:52

He has a point though... the aero and locked diffs are starting to get ridiculous in order to be fast :(

But I still play it, and hope to have a patch or some update soon! :)

Ball Bearing Turbo

3rd February 2006, 04:11

Indeed that does get frustrating. Countless times I wonder why I just can't keep up with JOE BLOW, so he offers me setup, and I try it only to see how ridiculous the setup is... And the cars behave very oddly with the exploited setups too, I just don't like driving them, mentally I can't justify it.

Breizh

3rd February 2006, 05:38

It's true.. I never race TBOs anymore, not when the FXO is that much faster.
It's a different issue, but the same kind of issue.
But I don't incessantly gripe about it; it's a waste of one's time to focus on something that, effectively, one can not do anything about, and of others' to reread the same rant over and over.

We know a patch is coming, that it's fixing physics.. what's to complain about?

Racer Y

3rd February 2006, 05:52

It's true.. I never race TBOs anymore, not when the FXO is that much faster.
It's a different issue, but the same kind of issue.

I don't think the FXO dominates as much as it did in S-1. In fact on the shorter tracks the class is a bit more equal.

AS far as locked diffs go..... I swithched a RAC set-up from Viscous to locked
and after a few laps, noticed a signifigant improvement in lap times. As I'm
slow I don't know if the diff helped all that much or if I got better on the track
through repetitions. but it didn't seem like an Unrealistic increase.
I don't know about the GTR's and different diffs. Oh well, it'll get fixed I guess.

Breizh

3rd February 2006, 05:58

I've barely played S1. I've only now tried out the FXO, since racing FWDs never had any appeal to me, and the difference in performance with the Xracing tank and racing boat4 is just night and day, to me.

A function's rate of change says nothing about its absolute value.. The TBO isn't equal, anymore than the FXR leads the GTR class on enough of the tracks to be considered an equal participant.

illegal

3rd February 2006, 11:36

Now who's complaining? :)

Flotch

3rd February 2006, 12:27

wtf with the locked diff?? clutch pack is really wrong, locked diff is as crap as it should be, I do not see a problem with it.

Breizh

3rd February 2006, 13:53

Are you talking to me illegal?

illegal

3rd February 2006, 14:21

It was directed at your post, yes. Other than that I have nothing to add to this thread.

Breizh

3rd February 2006, 15:05

I wasn't complaining.
If LFS gets on my nerves for whatever reason, I quit within 30 seconds.

filur

3rd February 2006, 18:57

IMO rFactor sounds how a racing simulation should. Doesn't give as much info as LFS but sounds gorgeous. Victor needs to fix the underlying tones and tweak the way they loop a bit more, then I'd say add at least 5-6 sounds on top. This can be anything from clutch noises to gravel hitting the car.

Is it just me who find the sound in rfactor. and some other sampled-sounds sim's, to not be very good? :)

I mean, in the car. hearing the engine it doesn't sound like there's an engine shaking around making lots of noise, it sounds like you're listening to a hifi recording of an engine made in a zero-echo environment, with an $8,000 microphone, mixed and mastered, coming thru headphones.

I personally think rfactor sounds kinda like this with added layers of broken washing machine noises.

? :)

deggis

3rd February 2006, 21:08

I personally think rfactor sounds kinda like this with added layers of broken washing machine noises.
And LFS sounds like a food mixer. Altough how LFS sound feels is a completely different thing. :)

Mogar

3rd February 2006, 21:36

wtf with the locked diff?? clutch pack is really wrong, locked diff is as crap as it should be, I do not see a problem with it.

IMO, that is not an excuse to a physics fault. The non-locked diffs should be better than the locked one.

We know a patch is coming, that it's fixing physics.. what's to complain about?

Yes, we know that a patch is comming, but we don't have any idea when it's gonna be released. Maybe 1 month, 6 months, 2 years..... I know that software developing usually takes more time than we think that it will get, but they could at least give us a idea, or what they plan to fix on the next patch. They don't said even if they plan to release a patch before the S2 final. It's reasonable that they will release at least one beta version, but again, we don't know how far they want to go on the next patch, and right now we don't need so big changes to get the fun with LFS again.

Ok that lot of changes on physics through sucessive patch releases on short periods is not nice, but it's not nice also when there are bugs for so long time, that ppl start to discover and use exploits. LFS is a SIMULATOR, so riding unrealistic bug-exploiting setups shouldn't be a reality.

If LFS gets on my nerves for whatever reason, I quit within 30 seconds.

I quit it since 3 weeks ago, and I don't miss LFS as it is today at all.

Speed Soro

3rd February 2006, 22:50

marsden1002

3rd February 2006, 22:52

keiran

3rd February 2006, 23:19

tbh no other game beats LFS in my books. To me it seems you like the ISI approach of the easiest way possible. I just love how the LFS devs are setting new standards and aren't taking the easy way out. They could have easily left us with solid tyres but they didn't. They gave us a fantastic looking flexing tyre model and also a great simulation of a tyre. The same goes for the damage model. They could just have made bits randomly fall off but they didn't they yet again took the longer approach. To me this shows a heck load of dedication and at the same time they keep moving the goal posts. As far as I've exprienced LFS' FF beats anyother game. You just get so much information and you can tell what the car is doing.

Okay sounds are something which could be worked on but hearing some sample which doesn't relate to what the car is doing doesn't simulate it properly for me. That is the past in my books.

Physics bugs exist in LFS but they are the same for everybody.

Mogar I really can't see your point. The LFS devs are working hard on this project and we know that down to there dedication. This is their project and they can run it as they want. I myself like the surprise of finding a new patch with some added features or fixes which I didn't know about. It's called a surprise. Maybe your someone who must know whats going to happen next ?? I take LFS as it comes. For me it's the best £24 I've spent and if you look at it the amount of hours I've spent on LFS probaly would have cost me £100s with other racing "sims"

I don't know why people keep moaning about the way LFS is being developed. Why did they put money into the project in the first place if they didn't like the way it's being developed. I know for a fact Scawen said somewhere he hates these sort of threads so why are people continuing to distract him from work :p Let him code away or finish his kitchen.

Keiran

Mogar

3rd February 2006, 23:29

Well,

I discover new passions... and LFS is past for me...

It looks like past, sounds like past and drive like past... literally speaking.

Moderns games look, sound and drive much better.

Sorry

LFS is still the only simulator that makes me feel connected with the car, although I must admit that I didn't try GTL or GTR (I'm going to do that).

The sound system also is good, although I think that Scawen is not using a sound system with a flat response for reference, since on a flat system (my headphones are reasonably flat, and I don't use equalizers), it lacks too much mid-bass and bass (or maybe the low frequencies are not properly simulated yet). But playing with LFS mekanik you can see how big is the potential for the sound system (if you put a 5 cylinder engine, it sounds like a 5 cylinder engine, if you put a v10 engine, it sounds like a v10 engine, with limitations of course).

Everything on LFS seems to be in the right way, although are not on a good state right now. The graphics are clean, efficient, without some tricks that some games use that make them look too cartoonish, although they lack a proper illumination system, the sounds are good, although they need some refinement and sound more "warm" and need a better crash sounds, and the physics are good, although the differentials and aerodynamics are flawed right now (although the differential problem may be related to a bug on tyre modeling as Scawen said before).

But as I say,we paid for the potential, but we want someday the finished product. Ok, I don't want to push the devs to release a patch with hundreds of bugs, but what I want is something to clarify what we are the next improvements that we are going to see on next patch, and if it will be released before next year or so..... Something more short or medium term.

I don't know why people keep moaning about the way LFS is being developed

I support someway the way that LFS is being developed, but what make me frustrated someway is the long period without patches or any information about the development state, like they did before. We had almost 1 progress report a month, and now, I forgot when we had any news about the development state or when the last patch was released (without counting the language patches).

Ok, they needed a break, no problem with that, but the way that the community here is acting makes them very confortable. Anyone that wants information about the development progress gets almost flamed by the strong supporters. So they don't feel the need to keep us informed, or give us any patch.

[edit]

I've just checked, the last physics update (Patch P2) that we had was on 7th August, Almost 6 months ago, and until then, almost no news about the development. Quite a long time.

[editing again]

Well, Patch P2 was fully compatible with patch P (same physics), that was released on 25th June 2005

Mogar

4th February 2006, 00:11

I believe that the paranoids have sufficient reasons to believe that the development process of LFS is gonna be stopped, or at least S2 final is going to be what we have today, and we will have to wait for S3 to get the aerodynamics and the other bugs fixed.

We all know that the costs to live in England are pretty high, and LFS is someway cheap and have a small number of licensed drivers.

The latest language patches are the kind of thing that is on the last lines of the to do list, something that is done before releasing an almost finished product.

So, there is a possibility that devs are doing the last touches to give LFS an aspect of a finished product, give us a last patch with minor updates on physics and abandon the LFS project or at least, abandon S2 and leave all other updates to S3, since they are probably not making sufficient money from LFS, and they are stuck on S2 development for quite a long time (so they need to go to S3 to make more money to live, or even the money from the ppl that are waiting S2 final to buy the license).

And I bet that they thought that the number of licensed drivers would be much higher than it actually is.

deggis

4th February 2006, 00:57

The latest language patches are the kind of thing that is on the last lines of the to do list, something that is done before releasing an almost finished product.
I agree that the language crap shouldn't have been released at this time but Scawen also said that in the beginning it wasn't a big deal but then the language code just got bigger and bigger somehow. Altough it took "only" a month to make it... but if that time was just put to the physics issues. :shrug:

Speed Soro

4th February 2006, 01:09

Well, well, well, the same old talk (past?) here again and again.

The way the things are done, the hard way the devs choose to go in, the marvelous sound engine even sounds bad, the fantastic tyres modelling even with grip bugs and blablabla.

Ok.

I agree with all that things, but I do not blind myself to other new good stuffs in the market.

The way many people here talk, it looks like Scawen and his comrades are the unique in the world that knows how to build a good simulator, but as himself has said around, they are learning how to do the things.

They know just a few about cars, they never got in a race car, they are studing physics book yet, they started this project with no big intentions, and they will be thankful if they had a chance to try real race cars in real race tracks, to get real feedback from real situations and compare with their algorithms, different from any other experimented teams, such as ISI and SIMBIN that have many more people working together, and have support from experimented programmers and designers, and real pilots and real race teams.

For me odes not matter what goes inside the code, cause my contact with the game is the wheel and the pedals, and the look and the sound, and those are better now in other games.

I'm not saying that Scawen doesn't know what he is doing, but please, don't talk that he is going through the unique right way, cause if you would compare base to base, he is one of the less qualified between race programmers around this sim community.

They have a good idea, and good intentions, they work hard, and they are honest people. I'm not trying to hurt the Scavier image. But you all stop with this ridiculous and too old argument that ISI and SIMBIN and others has made a not good enough work cause the system they code their game is other.

They work hard too, and they don't stop for six months for their kitchens issues.

I'm just asking for a progress report. They are not obligate to. But stop talking that old bullshit, cause 4 years is too much time in my calendar.

I've create, about one year ago, a term to define the feeling that LFS cause me when driving: LFSensation.

That is cause I couldn't feel so connected to any other game as I feel in LFS, and i couldn't explain that feeling, so that definition.

But, to feel connected is one thing, and to feel you are driving a real car is other thing.

Have a nice weekend.

Breizh

4th February 2006, 05:29

Zzz

filur

4th February 2006, 20:46

It looks like past, sounds like past and drive like past... literally speaking.

And won best multiplayer and best physics at bhm, what more do you need really :)

Mogar

4th February 2006, 23:34

Yeah, this is the kitchen report thread......

come on guys, we had this physics discussion so many times now :shrug:

Before it wasn't so critical, but now, everyone is using locked diffs and high nose. So, it's not a simulator anymore.

Ok, I also got tired from moaning, but I also got tired with this buggy physics that we are using since 7 months ago without a single update (if I'm not wrong, we had never passed through a such long period without updates on LFS physics).

On the old days, we had much more news and updates, that was almost impossible to go with buggy sets, since at least each 2 or 3 months a new physics patch was released. Now the physics system got so old, that although it can give a realistic feel, the sets that ppl are using to be fast is making LFS looks more like an arcade game than a simulator.

If the way that it's been developed was intended to create the best simulator ever, but for now, it failed on it's goals.

And won best multiplayer and best physics at bhm, what more do you need really

Ok, the situation is not better with GTL, that I tried and didn't like too much. LFS without bug exploiting setups is better, but using them you are not competitive, so it lost it's sense...

I prefer much more a simple patch that do a workaround for the aero and diff bugs for now than later a bigger "flawless" patch 8 months from now.

Just to clarify, I'm not against on the way that LFS is being developed, but on the way that we are absolutely without know what the devs are doing and without any updates on the engine.

IMO, with a little work the fun with LFS could be restored, at least for me.

I think like this, all members will stop whining and moaning (at least I'll stop ;) ).

Let us all do this, and Scawen will never feel the need to update LFS and loose members from this community, and only the hardcore fans will continue playing LFS (and the number of S3 licensed drivers can fall considerably).

LFS already has a small market, and it can not survive only from the hardcore fans, and it's good that Scawen don't forget this.

keiran

5th February 2006, 09:48

lol

You have to understand though that as things develop further the coding is going to get more difficult. Scawen doesn't have near the same resources as most other developers do. I'm pretty sure Simbin will be getting information from teams for the GTR games.

Scawen has posted he knows the problems and we know he is fixing them. I'd rather he take his time, rather than find we get another patch with another problem because of the changes he made to fix one problem.

If the devs were after the money they'd not have developed the project this far. They would have smacked it all together and sold S1 to some publisher. Then they'd have done the same with S2 etc. Instead we are getting a great game for the price of £12 each stage. Look at GTR it's got loads of bugs and now there is a new one coming out soon which is going to cost £30-35 on top of what you paid for GTR £30-35.

So far you seem to be the only one panicing about things. Go play another game if you find LFS isn't fun but there is obviously plenty of people who don't feel the same way you do because LFS has by far the most active online community of any racing sim.

Keiran

Breizh

5th February 2006, 14:50

What's wrong with you, Keiran... This is about Mogar/Soro/Whatever's navel, not the proper development of LFS.

Racer Y

5th February 2006, 15:43

lol

Instead we are getting a great game for the price of £12 each stage.

You know, everyone says that. but I don't like to look at it that way.
Because looking at it that way, to me means paying about 65$ (US)
for a game that I can't get all of yet. That just SOUNDS wrong.
espescially when complete games here are around $50. It sounds better to me if you call S-1 a complete game and S-2 and 3 expansion packs.
then it sounds like a hell of a deal.

off topic: I been looking at this GTL(?) game. the screenshots look good
the cars look great... then I hear the FPS horror stories from people that have
massive Game machines that can't get a decent performance from playing it. I'm really glad LFS isn't that way. I think that putting out video games
that are basically the same thing over & over, yet needing bigger and more expensive hardware requirements to play them is a very very BIG reason
Games aren't selling so good. I'm sorry, but I ain't gonna get a game of ANY sort that needs me to do about $300 in upgrades when basically it's the same crap as 5-10 years ago - only prettier.

keiran

5th February 2006, 16:53

What's wrong with you, Keiran... This is about Mogar/Soro/Whatever's navel, not the proper development of LFS.

I believe that the paranoids have sufficient reasons to believe that the development process of LFS is gonna be stopped, or at least S2 final is going to be what we have today, and we will have to wait for S3 to get the aerodynamics and the other bugs fixed.

We all know that the costs to live in England are pretty high, and LFS is someway cheap and have a small number of licensed drivers.

The latest language patches are the kind of thing that is on the last lines of the to do list, something that is done before releasing an almost finished product.

So, there is a possibility that devs are doing the last touches to give LFS an aspect of a finished product, give us a last patch with minor updates on physics and abandon the LFS project or at least, abandon S2 and leave all other updates to S3, since they are probably not making sufficient money from LFS, and they are stuck on S2 development for quite a long time (so they need to go to S3 to make more money to live, or even the money from the ppl that are waiting S2 final to buy the license).

And I bet that they thought that the number of licensed drivers would be much higher than it actually is.

LFS already has a small market, and it can not survive only from the hardcore fans, and it's good that Scawen don't forget this.

Thats the points I was getting at. I was just saying that if the LFS devs were after money they'd be charging us £35 a go rather than £12.

Keiran

mrodgers

5th February 2006, 20:45

off topic: I been looking at this GTL(?) game. the screenshots look good
the cars look great... then I hear the FPS horror stories from people that have
massive Game machines that can't get a decent performance from playing it.
That would represent me. Although I don't have a "massive Game machine", if I ran LFS at the options I run GTL with getting only 20 FPS max, I'd probably be well over 100 in LFS. GTL I have to run 1024x768x16 with no gfx card options, direct X 7, no other cars on the track, and all ingame options at the lowest level. And I only get 20 FPS in certain spots on the demo track. More like 15 average normally. Completely undrivable and uncontrollable. LFS I run 1152x864x32 with AA/AF, with 20+ others on track, in multiplayer on a 56k dialup connection connected from the US to all around the world. Other US, UK, Brazil, Germany, Australia, I've connected and raced successfully everywhere.

I really wanted to run GTL because driving the American V8's would be awesome, but the graphics engine obviously is garbage if I can run LFS with high settings and looking beautiful, but GTL doesn't even run on the lowest settings.

Barroso

5th February 2006, 20:57

lol gtl is a funny game, i also tried the dx7 and all on low and the result was crappy performance, altough with dx9 and somethings on high and others in medium it ran around 30-50fps except for some parts in that it would choke for no reason. also the camera view influences alot the fps like in lfs, after the race is over and the computer takes control of the car the fps jump to 90+ strangely. sure is one wierd game engine.

Mogar

5th February 2006, 21:18

Thats the points I was getting at. I was just saying that if the LFS devs were after money they'd be charging us £35 a go rather than £12.

But they need to make money at least to eat, live in a decent place, hang out with friends or girlfriends sometimes.... They don't look like want to be rich with LFS, but they need to make money to be able to live at least. Unless they start to do farming on their gardens, make their own clothes, but even then they would have to pay for their home.

What's wrong with you, Keiran... This is about Mogar/Soro/Whatever's navel, not the proper development of LFS.

I think that you didn't understand that I'm not against the way that LFS is being developed (or more exactly, the purpose of LFS, that is to be the most realistic simulator ever, without commercial pressures, but with a close relationship with the costumers and fans from hardcore racing simulators), but the lack of news about the developing process like we had on S1 days. In the old days, we knew what changes were gonna be made, now, we just know that "a patch with bug fixes will be released when it's ready", but how far from being ready is something that officially we don't have a single report for more than 7 months.

I like much more the relationship that the devs had with the community on the old days than today. They seemed to care much more about the community than they care today.

I trust that devs will fix those bugs someday, or else, I wouldn't have spent my money on S2 before it's officially released.

Speed Soro

6th February 2006, 00:04

blablabla and blebleble but the fact is that SCAWEN has taken a rest for a long time and now it is time to go back to work. Please, no more "that's the way we choose to work" excuses. :chairs:

While the lambs say amem they think everything is going ok, but there are voices here to say clear and loud: WE NEED A GOOD PHYSICS PATCH!:present:

No more excuses, no more laze, the time urges :D

PLEASE! I WANT TO COME BACK TO LFS!!!

Rotary

6th February 2006, 00:33

tristancliffe

6th February 2006, 00:34

deggis

6th February 2006, 01:32

There are a vast majority of us that barely notice the funny grip 80% of the time
Ever noticed that when you go to the WC and there's a horrible smell of shit but after few minutes your nose gets used to it? :D

Gabkicks

6th February 2006, 01:32

lol angry cranky brazilians.:razz: go get some bunda and take a break from lfs.

what does WC stand for? omg we can say shit and it wont get censored.. i wonder what else we can say *#$ %#*% %@*%@ @$#$#* %@$%

Gunn

6th February 2006, 01:40

PLEASE! I WANT TO COME BACK TO LFS!!!I'm confused. You seem to dislike LFS, the way the devs work etc. You seem to not understand at all what LFS actually is. You don't accept answers that are given to your questions, you refuse to aknowledge the hard work of Scawen and co.

Yet you seem to believe that your whinging will somehow change the way things are done?

I feel sorry for you if this is true. You are in for a miserable ride.

deggis

6th February 2006, 02:40

what does WC stand for?
Toilet?

ATHome

6th February 2006, 03:08

Toilet?

Or to be more specific:

WC is the short form of water closet

Gabkicks

6th February 2006, 04:38

i dont think i've ever heard a toilet called a water closet:scratchch

Gabkicks

6th February 2006, 04:39

be happy. at least with lfs there will be improvements. alot of GTR owners feel totally screwed by simbin:razz:

BRG Renato

6th February 2006, 04:42

The simple fact is, if you don't like LFS (for WHATEVER reason), then don't play it. There are a vast majority of us that barely notice the funny grip 80% of the time, are not offended by the high nose bug, or Scawen's "way of working".

Yes, fixes would be nice. But LFS is still the best, BECAUSE it will be improved. Having people moan about lack of updates, didgy physics, Scawen's work ethic or whatever will have no effect on the development pace of LFS. They make LFS because they want to, not because YOU want it.
ok, I am in.
I'll comment your post because it shows why lfs walks in turtle pace.

"The simple fact is, if you don't like LFS (for WHATEVER reason), then don't play it."
>We like LFS, we are kinda proud of those 3 guys. But if, for you, criticize means dislike.... if warnings means insults.... if ask for corrections about a product that I payed for is wrong.... sorry, I thought you were from this planet.

"There are a vast majority of us that barely notice the funny grip 80% of the time, are not offended by the high nose bug"
>ignorance is a bless. knowledge is a curse. A minority of us notice the irritating grip more then 80% of the time. All of this minority are offended by the "high nose bug". And you can ask: "WHY? Why you care that much?" Because it must be a SIM because it were first created to be a SIM and I spent my money on it because they told me it would be a SIM. A SIM cant have all these bugs.
U know what is a SIM, right? Comes from simulation. Simulation, in the present case, means to reproduce the real life driving into a game. I've never seen a high nose formula. Hmmm, I think it wont work. Why it works on LFS? Because its a bug. Why this bug is not fixed yet??? You already answered: "There are a vast majority of us that ... are not offended by the high nose bug"

"Yes, fixes would be nice. But LFS is still the best, BECAUSE it will be improved."
>Nonsense. I cant say something is the best now because someday it will be improved up to a level considered the best. I am studying law. I cant say I am the best bacause someday, maybe, I will absorve all the law's information.
What really matters is the present. LFS is not the best now. Future improvements cant change the present state.

"Having people moan about lack of updates, didgy physics, Scawen's work ethic or whatever will have no effect on the development pace of LFS"
It would if the majority of YOU act like the minority of us. All is perfect for you. Have you tried others SIMs recently? I hope you didn't, I dont want to believe the majority of LFS players (like you said) cant notice the diference. Because, if you dont, its the same thing play NFS and LFS. If you notice difference and think LFS is more realistic, you dont know the Real Life.

"They make LFS because they want to, not because YOU want it."
The make LFS because they want to earn money. They like to make it. But they need the money. If they dont put a good product on the market, it wont sell. LFS is good? Yeah. Its is the best? NO. Fixes can chance things? Yeah. I'd buy LFS now, considering the other options? NO. But I've already bought it... almost two years ago.... when it was the best... am I repent.....no.....not yet

ATHome

6th February 2006, 04:55

i dont think i've ever heard a toilet called a water closet:scratchch

But it could be called like that :P

Gabkicks

6th February 2006, 05:07

i think that lfs is mostly about making a game as close to reality "physics wise" as possible along with easy and efficient coding and interface. Money doesnt appear to be top on the list. if it is then the 3 men in charge sure have me fooled.:tilt:

keiran

6th February 2006, 08:19

Name one game that beats LFS for the real feel of a car ?? FF is the most important part of a racing sim without that then it really can't feel of much.

So far I can only see about 3 of your complaining so the majority rule over the minority. Let the devs do what they like and be glad that you own the best racing game available ;)

Keiran

AndroidXP

6th February 2006, 08:58

"They make LFS because they want to, not because YOU want it."
The make LFS because they want to earn money. They like to make it. But they need the money. If they dont put a good product on the market, it wont sell. LFS is good? Yeah. Its is the best? NO. Fixes can chance things? Yeah. I'd buy LFS now, considering the other options? NO. But I've already bought it... almost two years ago.... when it was the best... am I repent.....no.....not yetMy goodness, why is it mostly the Brazilian community that doesn't want to understand how LFS works (or whines all day about it)? Different mentality? Different way of thinking? I dunno :(

The point you mentioned above shows exactly why you have no idea of how LFS works. The devs aim for this game is to make the most accurate simulation ever. The money is not the main goal, unlike in most (all?) ISI games.

Also, "we" play plenty of other sims and we do notice the difference - and this is the very reason why we still play LFS, because IMO no other sim comes close to this. Besides that, have you ever noticed how seldomly Scawen posted in the last month, no? This is because he's working his a** off to get the last few bugs/oddities fixed. He has said that multiple times. Yet you still continue to whine how you don't like the progress. Maybe you want to start a debate about their business model again? Don't you ever get it?

This is just sad :(

Breizh

6th February 2006, 09:19

.. so far, the universe is winning.

Maybe we can sick the Viper gang on the Wests.. now, those guys are money haggling thieves.. and both the most promising and vaporware developers to boot..
Fraud personified!

JJ72

6th February 2006, 09:30

Why the hate towards those who ask for more? I think even if there's some lack of understanding among our brazilian fellow it's still something understandable and actually everyone has their own vision on what LFS should be, the fact is most of us are being more forgiving on scawan and co. then any other developers, however it's a vote on trust and long term partnership, not a vote on logic. Okay we understand that this relationship can only work with patience and support, however you can't blame someone for not being able to show enough patience, there's a personal limit/scale to such things and it's their choice how they deal with it. The forum rules doesn't say you MUST love the dev and love the game, but the forum does state that offensive behavior is a big no no.

We all know it's a hard thing to wait for, so why not give each other a break? How does this discrimination on "viper gang" help the game being better anyway?

mosquito25

6th February 2006, 10:09

Why? hmmmm

Maybe because (*) :

Scawen already replied many times "There will not be any progress report till we have something interresting to say" and "I will not realease any other patch before ALL physic's updates are ready", and HE EXPLAINED WHY!
It has been quoted many times
Sawen thanked some member for trying to explain again and again and again
This question comes back every month (moon related?)
Some of them are trolling BHM awards topic : starting here http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=70007#post70007
There's another thread (now closed) where they asked all these question and received the same awnsers, including eight posts by Scawen himself : http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3643&highlight=suggestionawnsers(*) not exhaustive list

ps : I'm not hating them, but I'm really bored with these recurrent posts

Edit : added a link

Edit2 : updated # Scawen's awnsers in topic "not a suggestion"

Kashopi

6th February 2006, 10:13

I agree with the Brazilians, progress on this game is at least 6 months behind where I thought it would be when I payed for it but I believe Scawen is working now, so I'm letting him get on with it. What I want to know now is are the sounds and floating barriers being fixed/improved?

Me too.
And , what happened with Eric Bailey? Scawen were doing improvements in international support (among other things), Victor is always busy with the webs & LFSWorld .... but how about Eric?

AndroidXP

6th February 2006, 10:29

Eric is likely improving cockpits and cars, alteast I think he's doing that.

Also, mosquito hit the nail on the head, I'm really getting tired of all this demanding and requesting and moaning. It has been explained SO OFTEN why we have what we currently have, yet people come back to flood the devs with their "wisdom" and "warnings" that we've heard millions of times already, that have been acknowledged by the devs, that have been answered by the devs.

We are all for improvement suggestions and tips or pointing out things that are not right, but please make sure that you're not posting these things for the millionth time because it gets really boring and frustrating. The devs read almost any post so pointing anything out once or twice is enough. If they don't reply that doesn't mean they didn't read it.

mosquito25

6th February 2006, 10:31

My opinion
http://pix.nofrag.com/5d/e6/b121e8de219668c65965fb64f4bb.gif

keiran

6th February 2006, 10:32

Well Scawen said at Christmas time they had hoped to give us some updates/fixes and a track. So I reckon Eric is probaly making another track/conig but I can't find that post of Scawens as the forum doesn't go far enough back.

Keiran

edit// lol mosquito25

Breizh

6th February 2006, 10:39

Hate and discrimination? Why not racism while you're at it?:tilt:
What I do discriminate is incessant spamming of message boards with inquiries already answered, perspectives already proven erroneous, dilemnas already debated as moot.
All of this with a stubborn woe-is-me, engrish flavor, is comical.
Call it caricaturing, if you will..

Breizh

6th February 2006, 10:45

and what's loving the devs got to do with anything?
If anyone's going passionately apeshit over this, it's those guys.

I'm having good races in a few different leagues, there's plenty of cars and tracks and combinations of the two, tons of different settings and setups, a respectable amount of bugs to laugh about, and if that weren't enough, there's a physics improvement patch, better cockpits, more features, more funny bugs, more psychotic fans/hatemail/whining posts on their way..
What more could you ask for?

If all the races, without exception, that I've taken part of in the last month or so, were a dinner with 100 guests, it'd be a quiet dinner with no sound but the constant munching and gobbling and chewing of fine food and drink.. with the occasional -pass me the salt.
No complaints worth writing home about.

Rumiko

6th February 2006, 11:02

My opinion
http://pix.nofrag.com/5d/e6/b121e8de219668c65965fb64f4bb.gif

Hehe, nice touch, I think it fits quite well :)

Kashopi

6th February 2006, 11:12

Eric is likely improving cockpits and cars, alteast I think he's doing that.

That's what I say.
Where did you hear that? :)

AndroidXP

6th February 2006, 11:13

At the EAS but :shhh:

Vendetta

6th February 2006, 11:17

My opinion
http://pix.nofrag.com/5d/e6/b121e8de219668c65965fb64f4bb.gif

LOL, but wheres victor? :D

mosquito25

6th February 2006, 11:21

Look at the post title: Scawan & Victin
I know he's not looking like Robin, but that's the best pic I've found ^^
And Eric is shooting with his camera

Edited: I made a mistake ;)

Falkowski83

6th February 2006, 13:04

Vain

6th February 2006, 13:21

The easiest way for developers to get and keep a great community is to stay in touch with it. And to my knowledge this is also how this community has come to happen.
Now I'd like to know why the devs think that letting the community alone will help LFS in any way.

Vain

KiDCoDEa

6th February 2006, 13:46

This question comes back every month (moon related?)

indirectly i guess you are right. but if u wanna be more direct, i suspect its a tampax issue.

Breizh

6th February 2006, 13:50

If I was flaming you, you'd know it.
balllicking the devs. No.
FACTS
1)We absolutely should have had some progress reports, or know we are fixing this and that. No.
We do.
2) BHM and AutoSimSport Who cares?
3) WTF?????? No flames, just calling your posts for what they are.
We UNDERSTAND But you just run out of patince waiting for something that should You don't understand. Or you do understand, but ADD kicks in right after that.
I'm not running out of patience, you are. Try not waiting at all.
When anything should or should not be, regarding LFS, is up to the devs, not you.
4) In the other "brazilian" thread, SpeedSoro warned about the other developers. And was FLAMED for that. I need to say that I really have high expectations for GTR2. And if the LFS Team doesn't keep up to par, they will lose a lot of supporters (even the hardcvore, that will have to understand the REALITY someday). Cry me a river... Play what you want, want what you play, it's just a game. The devs aren't living under a rock, they don't need you to stay up to date on actualities of the simracing world.
flamed for this Paranoia
OPINIONS, COMPLAINTS and SUGGESTIONS But not whining posts in caps, every other day, with the same debunked points recycled over and over.
It shouldn't be Not up to you to decide.
if the developers are criticized there will be a lot of "ball-lickers" to flame the other guys. Sort of like you balllick each other. Or flame those that consistently point out the inconsistencies in your posts.
What's next? Fascism accusations?
balllicking the devs. No.
Wait!.. let me think about that..
No.
I've got emotional issues over a game Now, that might be flaming if it wasn't true.

If you're so sure about all this, get in direct contact with the devs, should you have a point, they'll certainly hear you out and let you know what they think and why.
Then again they might be busy doing something else than catering to your impatience and lack of perspective.

deggis

6th February 2006, 14:22

i dont think i've ever heard a toilet called a water closet:scratchch
Never seen toilet signs with "WC"? Like this: http://www4.plala.or.jp/Yokky/cafe/ud/cityhall/sign2f.gif I think that's not usual in USA then.

Eric is likely improving cockpits and cars, at least I think he's doing that.
That's the problem.

The devs read almost any post so pointing anything out once or twice is enough. If they don't reply that doesn't mean they didn't read it.
In the other hand it kinda means exactly that... in certain cases at least.

2) Why the BHM and AutoSimSport awards? Because the community voted. Not racing experts. Not professional drivers. We already know this, and 9 out of 10 professional drivers will say GTR and GTL are WAY better than LFS (can't disagree there. And btw, yes, I also play GTL, so don't come with the nonsense "if u dont like it dont play it")
How come? You got any facts behind that? The two major reasons for that might be that: 1. GTL/GTR are based on real series -> it just looks more realistic to real drivers. 2. GTL/GTR are more famous. I bet very small minority of the real drivers that have some kind of history with sim games have even tried LFS. I just read from the Vienna Car Show thread that some real racer who drove Caterhams who had tried the Cyberseat with LFS was very impressed with LFS & LX4. Of course this is just one example. My point is that there are lots of more real race drivers in GTR/GTL community mostly because of the real licenses and the publicity that those games have had.

And one more point: altough we are talking about sims they're still GAMES and made for gamers, not for real drivers. :)

And I also have a little question for GTL players. Don't you think that GTL has a lot more bugs and flaws than LFS currently?

PS. Don't get me wrong, I still pretty much agree with Mogar & co.

MyBoss

6th February 2006, 14:30

My opinion
http://pix.nofrag.com/5d/e6/b121e8de219668c65965fb64f4bb.gif

Briliant :thumbsup:

tristancliffe

6th February 2006, 14:45

I think to new drivers (and this included professional drivers who are not used to sim-racing) would tend to prefer the fudged physics of GTR and GTL etc, the excessive grip to make it easier and the flashy sound effects. But after, ooooooh, about 30 seconds it's obvious that LFS has so much more than any of them.

as Kid says, no other sim comes even remotely close to LFS in the tyre simulation department. No sim (currently) offers a sound system with which you can drive, shift and heel and toe just by ear. No sim offers a damage model as awesome as LFS's. Sure, bits don't fall off, a tiny bug in the aero means noses have to be high, and below 30mph you can notice a few grip issues, but does that really mean that much?

And bear in mind that Scawen WILL fix the tyres and aero bugs, improve the damage and sound modelling, and add the flashy effects that newbies so desire. Not immediately, but as it's done and perfected more. Do you think rFactor will ever release a patch to attach the cars to the track, or attach the steering wheel to at least some part of the car? No!!! Do you think GTR2 will be any better than any other ISI/G-Motor 'sim', other than flashier graphics? No, I doubt it.

If you want to compare sims, at least give LFS a break and compare it to the only other sim that poses a threat - NetKar. And it's only conjecture 'cos no-ones played it. It might be poo.

deggis

6th February 2006, 14:53

INo sim offers a damage model as awesome as LFS's. Sure, bits don't fall off...
I already asked about this on some other thread. I don't undestand how can anyone call LFS's damage model good at the current stage? Of course the dynamic way it's been done is way better than "scripted damage model" but currently it lacks so many things.

Do you think rFactor will ever release a patch to attach the cars to the track, or attach the steering wheel to at least some part of the car? No!!! Do you think GTR2 will be any better than any other ISI/G-Motor 'sim', other than flashier graphics? No, I doubt it.
Damn good point. I've also asked this few times from the ISI/Simbin fans. I didn't get answers.

Vykos69

6th February 2006, 14:53

I really don't understand why all this balllicking towards the devs.

Let's discuss the FACTS, and not subjective things:

1) LFS is beta. Yes, it is. For almost 8 months now. We absolutely should have had some progress reports, or as Mogar stated, know we are fixing this and that.no, alpha
2) Why the BHM and AutoSimSport awards? Because the community voted. Not racing experts. Not professional drivers. We already know this, and 9 out of 10 professional drivers will say GTR and GTL are WAY better than LFS (can't disagree there. And btw, yes, I also play GTL, so don't come with the nonsense "if u dont like it dont play it")I saw real racedrivers play LFS, and they were really impressed.
3) WTF is this that whenever someone has any complaints about the game or the physics you will come flaming everyone?????? We said over and over again that we UNDERSTAND how LFS is being developed. But it comes to a point where you just run out of patince waiting for something that should already be done.because you simply do not have the right to ORDER a progress report. If the devs want to/can, they give you one, if not you dont get one
4) In the other "brazilian" thread, SpeedSoro warned about the other developers. And was FLAMED for that. I need to say that I really have high expectations for GTR2. And if the LFS Team doesn't keep up to par, they will lose a lot of supporters (even the hardcvore, that will have to understand the REALITY someday).you know what? I might even buy gtr2 the time it is out. But if any new patch for LFS comes after that, I'll be back as everyone. Yes, just go and enjoy it, play other games, but the moment you get the email with the newsletter, you'll be back, I'll promise. And you know why? Cause you wont have to pay 50,- Euros for that update ;)

I know I will be flamed for this, but Forums are places to post OPINIONS, and also COMPLAINTS and SUGGESTIONS about games. It shouldn't be a protective place where if the developers are criticized there will be a lot of "ball-lickers" to flame the other guys.

[ ]'s
you arent flamed, you just showed that there is still some lack of infos and understanding in the part of the "EA gives me every year an update for 50,- euros, I want one in LFS too" part of the community ;)

Rumiko

6th February 2006, 14:58

Sure, bits don't fall off, a tiny bug in the aero means noses have to be high, and below 30mph you can notice a few grip issues, but does that really mean that much?
The bugs are not tiny Tristan, GTR cars in endurance races are racing exclusively with soft compounds, locked differencials and suspension which would make the car fly on real race track. It has been pointed out that this makes LFS look more arcadish than many other sims out there.

People have been racing like this for months and no one actually knows, IF and WHEN these things will be fixed. That's what irritates people most in my opinion. Not that I disagree with you, I know it's work in progress and it's being worked on... (probably).

mosquito25

6th February 2006, 15:09

Physic updates? The devs released many patches, but much less physic updates (I'm playing since 2004)

Edit : Sry, I was wrong, updated (thx Tristancliffe)

Edit2 : OT now ;)

tristancliffe

6th February 2006, 15:09

iirc there were only 2 physics updates during the whole of S1, but I can't remember the updates. You know you can see the history of LFS News on liveforspeed.net, so you can see how often we got updates and what they had.

But yes, we know Scawen is working on them, or has them on his list of things to do. He is not ignoring these issues. As for the damage, I know it's limited now, but look at the potential of LFS's damage. Adding bits falling off, and you'll have quite quickly a damage model 500% better than anything so far. Right now I think LFS's damage is easily comparable to ISI games, just without bits falling off and being hit.

deggis

6th February 2006, 15:20

As for the damage, I know it's limited now, but look at the potential of LFS's damage. Adding bits falling off, and you'll have quite quickly a damage model 500% better than anything so far. Right now I think LFS's damage is easily comparable to ISI games, just without bits falling off and being hit.
But right now it isn't very good. As I said the dynamic way that it's done is of course the right way to develope it but currently it just lacks in so many areas that I can't call it good.

For me the best damage model is in RBR. Not perfect and scripted too but mostly because of the so called "fatality factor" - one crash and rally is over. I've been playing RBR from it's release but I just recently found out how accurate the damage model is. Even the the door locks are breakable (and you can repair those locks separetely from the actual door). :)

AndroidXP

6th February 2006, 15:28

I think it's even funnier/awsome if your door falls off and suddenly the engine sounds completely different, like all those outside noises coming in much louder from the side the door fell off :thumb:

Breizh

6th February 2006, 15:42

AndroidXP

6th February 2006, 16:04

Seems some people just don't understand the scope of conceptualizing, foolproofing, and implementing a feasible, performant, bug-free, and durable foundation for a game (those thousands of lines of code you load up in 15 sec) that's going to expand for a few years yet.
And then fixing all the unpredictable side effects that grow exponentially, while doing the tightrope dance in front of some jaded and skeptic crowd of outsiders..
It's no walk in the park.
Yes, I agree. I'm a programmer myself and when the code gets more and more complex, you need exponentially more time to add something new. You have to do very careful planning right in the beginning and while extending the code to make adding and changing things in the future as easy as possible (read: clean, structured code), but even then you have to watch out not to screw things up somewhere else. Then you have to test for ages and for every little change to test you need a recompile, which can take quite some time in a program as complex as LFS.

Performance critical parts like tyre physics are a whole different story alltogether, because sometime you simply don't have the option to use a perfectly clean and easily expandable code or else you'd have 30fps at a 4 GHz machine. If you have to change something then (like Scawen does now) you have to be double careful not to kill performance and not to cause any unwanted side-effects.

I bet many people here couldn't even write the simplest programs by themselves, yet they somehow think that Scawen can add a gazillion things in a few months. :shrug:

Hyperactive

6th February 2006, 16:23

OMG wtf lmao roLF (S), let's get this thread locked.

No seriously,

I wouldn't give a damn about what some race drivers say about any simulation after 5 minutes/5 hours of play. Not before they have tried more than one sim and can drive n it like he/she would drive with their real cars. And if they then say it's good, realistic and the way it should, then I'll may believe him. But the most important thing is that if I don't like it I don't play it.

LFS has those bugs, mentiened so many times. GTR has it's own bugs as any other games do. The bugs in LFS are quite small actually but they have major effect in all areas from car setups to race tactics.

As to the comments about LFS tire modelling being the best and most complex means nothing. You haven't seen the code. The GTR's may be the right and realistic one, it just needs more enhancing. As said somewhere else the "bending rubber" in tires may be all show. And having the sound engine being synthetic can mean a lot of things. It may be for realism or it may be for the simple fact that the devs don't have access to good quality sound samples or don't want to spend so much time for each car's engine sounds.

Sure, the (the ones) bugs have been in LFS since the launch of S2 alpha. Having that language patch before the physics update seems to me to be the right choise after all. If I understood it correctly they had little vacation after the S2 alpha launch and that language patch was sort of "getting back to work thing". I know I'm saying this for the 20th time but imho they hi-nose bug is a critical bug that in a way destroys some of the realism in LFS.

To me this whole thread is a bad joke. Kitchen updates...couldn't be less interested...

deggis

6th February 2006, 16:24

I bet many people here couldn't even write the simplest programs by themselves, yet they somehow think that Scawen can add a gazillion things in a few months. :shrug:
I can't code anything except the simplest HTML but I can write. Writing a short progress report takes 5 mins.

Falkowski83

6th February 2006, 16:40

Cry me a river... Play what you want, want what you play, it's just a game. The devs aren't living under a rock, they don't need you to stay up to date on actualities of the simracing world.
Exactly. It is just a game. Sometimes we just get a little tired because LFS has so much potential. Someone in the Brazilian forums (Soro) said that LFS doesn't simulate. LFS does everything. It is like a living organism, that responds to everything as it should, and not like some algorythms that sometimes have no answer to some of the variables. That is what makes us "complain". We see a glimpse of greatness, but then, in the execution, sometimes things fall behind (I know, we don't know yet how things will end up. But with how everything is being done, people expect greatness. And that is a lot of pressure on the devs).

I've got emotional issues over a game
Now, that might be flaming if it wasn't true.

If you're so sure about all this, get in direct contact with the devs, should you have a point, they'll certainly hear you out and let you know what they think and why.
Then again they might be busy doing something else than catering to your impatience and lack of perspective.

Never typed that in the first place. And well, it seems that some other people might be lacking perspective....

Oh, and btw, this is the place to directly contact the devs ;)

How come? You got any facts behind that? The two major reasons for that might be that: 1. GTL/GTR are based on real series -> it just looks more realistic to real drivers. 2. GTL/GTR are more famous. I bet very small minority of the real drivers that have some kind of history with sim games have even tried LFS. I just read from the Vienna Car Show thread that some real racer who drove Caterhams who had tried the Cyberseat with LFS was very impressed with LFS & LX4. Of course this is just one example. My point is that there are lots of more real race drivers in GTR/GTL community mostly because of the real licenses and the publicity that those games have had.

Well, there are professional driver who are in the Brazilian GTR league. And some of them are also old-schoolers in the sim area. Their opinion? LFS doesn't simulate. The setups adjustments in LFS do not correalte to real life setup adjustments. While in GTR/GTL they feel that it is the best sim available right now. They know that those games have a lot of flaws, but it is the one game that comes closer to real life cars. (and those are the words from guys who drive 450hp cars - Stock Car)

And one more point: altough we are talking about sims they're still GAMES and made for gamers, not for real drivers.

Agree there. But hey, so we should just get the "sim" tag out of LFS (read mogar previous posts and you'll see why I mean that). IMO, if a game has the goal to be a Sim, it must be for real drivers and must be equal to reality. And not a "game", where you can exploit flaws to succeed.

If you want to compare sims, at least give LFS a break and compare it to the only other sim that poses a threat - NetKar. And it's only conjecture 'cos no-ones played it. It might be poo.

Yes. I'm also waiting for that game. But don't get me wrong. I believe GTR2 will be just astonishing. And it will be a threat to LFS (well... that is a dangerous afirmative, because we only will know when they release GTR2).

no, alpha

Thanks for the correction.

I saw real racedrivers play LFS, and they were really impressed.
But did they ever play other sims? Do they know what other titles are capable of?

because you simply do not have the right to ORDER a progress report. If the devs want to/can, they give you one, if not you dont get one
I can't order anything. I am not ordering. I'm just asking.

you know what? I might even buy gtr2 the time it is out. But if any new patch for LFS comes after that, I'll be back as everyone. Yes, just go and enjoy it, play other games, but the moment you get the email with the newsletter, you'll be back, I'll promise. And you know why? Cause you wont have to pay 50,- Euros for that update

I never said I stopped playing LFS. I didn't. And I won't. But I'm also waiting for the new sims. If they are REALLY better, than I only will come back if LFS surprises me (and that is a completely possible scenario).

you arent flamed, you just showed that there is still some lack of infos and understanding in the part of the "EA gives me every year an update for 50,- euros, I want one in LFS too" part of the community

The only problem from this forum is that most of the times when people show different opinions from the majority, they are flamed. But hey, let's move on.

[ ]'s

KiDCoDEa

6th February 2006, 16:42

As said somewhere else the "bending rubber" in tires may be all show.

misinformed people can write whatever they want "somewhere else", here they will be corrected.
its fed from the physics.

Hyperactive

6th February 2006, 17:00

misinformed people can write whatever they want "somewhere else", here they will be corrected.
its fed from the physics.

The same way as bumps are fed from the physics in GTR.

It is more of a graphics detail than actual physics, no matter where the values come from.

tristancliffe

6th February 2006, 17:21

Sure it's graphical, in so much as you can see it on your screen. But you can watch the tyres to see how they behave, and change the setup to improve what you see. Plus, in all other sims the only 'suspension' is the springs and dampers. In LFS we have the extra semi-damped tyre carcass at play, thus making LFS far better.

It's NOT done for show. Hell, show me anything in LFS thats just done for show :p

Breizh

6th February 2006, 17:37

Too thick and sleezy for me.
How about this for progress report:

Work continues on LFS as outlined; done when it's done.

AndroidXP

6th February 2006, 17:41

Hoooray! :D

The work continues, now I'm relieved.

deggis

6th February 2006, 17:44

Well, there are professional driver who are in the Brazilian GTR league. And some of them are also old-schoolers in the sim area. Their opinion? LFS doesn't simulate. The setups adjustments in LFS do not correalte to real life setup adjustments. While in GTR/GTL they feel that it is the best sim available right now. They know that those games have a lot of flaws, but it is the one game that comes closer to real life cars. (and those are the words from guys who drive 450hp cars - Stock Car)
And only flaw they find in LFS is the setting bugs (and maybe the tyre grip issue)? I still think that the non-licensed cars and tracks affects more than they think.

If someone has seen some kind of "come all real race drivers here and post your opinions about different games" threads on RSCnet.org those would be interesting to read. :)

Tweaker

6th February 2006, 17:46

Cool, lets throw in some more cowbell!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y299/swoish/Cowbell.gif

Hyperactive

6th February 2006, 18:16

Plus, in all other sims the only 'suspension' is the springs and dampers. In LFS we have the extra semi-damped tyre carcass at play, thus making LFS far better.

Sorry, but you haven't seen the code either. You are just making assumptions. The same way I did when I said that "It is more of a graphics detail than actual physics, no matter where the values come from.". I could say that Netkar's physics involve the rigidity of the materials used IN shock absorbers. Or that the...

Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. In short it's not a fact, it's your opinion.

Also posting assumptions from what Eric/Victor/Scawen are doing is nothing more than assumptions. As long as they keep the info to them selves we simply don't know. Scawen has said that he will look into the aero and make/build some tire experiment device-coding thingies (in technical terms speaking...). Scawen also said that Eric is working on some track/combo/something. Or was working.

But I guess the devs don't really speak so much about the progress so that people wouldn't take it as a "solid promise of things to come in next patch/update". Or make guesses and wrong conclusions from their posts like I did above in this post.

Only thing I take as a fact is that there will be a patch/update.

Btw. nice drummer boy you got there, Tweaker. Though it looks more like compulsive movements than drumming ;)

EDIT:
Hell, show me anything in LFS thats just done for show :p

The CMX-viewer? :p

Ball Bearing Turbo

6th February 2006, 19:08

Sorry, but you haven't seen the code either. You are just making assumptions. The same way I did when I said that "It is more of a graphics detail than actual physics, no matter where the values come from.". I could say that Netkar's physics involve the rigidity of the materials used IN shock absorbers. Or that the...

If you could see the shock absorbers bend (uhoh) then it wouldn't be pure conjecture.

Certain things are not assumptions both because they have been stated in the ancient history of LFS development, and also common sense. Drop your car in the "garage" and you can see the tires flex, proving that what Tristan said is true. Lower the pressure and OBSERVE the difference in the behaviour. That's not an assumption, that is an observation. If anyone before ever bothered to get so detailed with tire deformation and model how it affects car handling, it would've taken them a fraction of the time so "show it" via a renderer, compard to the time to develop it. In LFS it's visible because it's there (redundant, but needed to be pointed out apparantly), and for no other reason. That's an observation not an assumption.

It's NOT done for show. Hell, show me anything in LFS thats just done for show :p
...LFS IS NOT RICE LOL:D

All this being said, yes I will defend LFS until the proverbial bitter end, and I also understand the sentiment of those who are unhappy with the current state of things. It's easy playing LFS, seeing the great foundation having been laid and still being perfected so start thinking "if only this, if only that, blah blah". I'd be lying if I didn't say that didn't happen to me regularly. However, I support the project and WHY it's being done, period. I'd like a patch as much as anyone else, and I suspect the devs would like to release one probably MORE than you want it!

The ONLY sentiment that the "publicly unhappy" people are expressing, which I disagree with is that somehow Scawen could just simply make this process faster. I seriously doubt that to be true...

Speed Soro

6th February 2006, 21:02

:uglyhamme Just laughing.

Tristanclif, I know you live stealthy in the Scawen's balls, so you know everything he is doing, even what he thinks, what he plans, and probably what he eats and what he shits...

You know everything. Sorry when we disagreed with you before.

(You just don't know what means SIMULATIONS, but that is not important...forget about it)

Well, I'm brazilian, that people who are always here whining, complaining...

That is because we are waiting for the carnaval, you know, we have nothing to do until there, so, why do not disturb the well deserved dev's rest...

PSSSSS! Devs working... c'mon... let's keep the noise low people, c'mon.

We just like to flame all foruns. We go forum by forum, opening threads like this one, just to complain, and perhaps cause a big irritation in the devs nerves...

We don't like LFS. In fact we HATE LFS... Yes... it's true, believe me.

WE HATE LFS :Looking_a

We hate so much, maybe more than we hate SIMULATION!!!

We love NFS.

NO!!! STOP!!! I said NFS???

Yes, we love it. NFS means: Never a ****ing Simulator!

Cause that we love it so much!

And of course NFSU too: Never a ****ing Simulator Understood???

We hate LFS, so we come here to disturb, not to help.

But...

Oh My F. Good... now I know we are wrong.

What are we doing brazilians whiners???

We are pointing the fails.:monkey2: We are monkeys... brazilian monkeys...

tsc tsc... we are helping the Devs pointing the fails... this will help the game to be improved...

No...forget everything. Now we LOVE this game!

YES, YES!!! We love the way the things are done, we love the 80% time without bug*, and we love high nose formula cars.

WE LOVE ALL THAT!!! Keep the game as it is, and go cooking!

(pssss... talk low... acting like that we'll blind the devs and they will not change anything anymore... and we will finally win! Yeahhhh! the stupid ****ing monkeys will win! My God, I'm so happy :D )

*a recent research from Tristanclif laboratories, after 8 months of exhaustive stressing tests, the result of grip fails has be appointed as a not important, but a funny (yes funny) feature that appears just around 20% of the race time. The users are unhappy cause they want more fun, so they are asking for a new patch to improve that to at least 50%.

Hyperactive

6th February 2006, 21:09

If you could see the shock absorbers bend (uhoh) then it wouldn't be pure conjecture.

Certain things are not assumptions both because they have been stated in the ancient history of LFS development, and also common sense. Drop your car in the "garage" and you can see the tires flex, proving that what Tristan said is true.

I didn't thought the fact that some things could have been said by the devs and tristan has certainly been here longer than me so he may know it better (hearsay! :)). But the fact that what is shown and what is not (tire flex, suspension movement...) doesn't actually mean that it comes from the physics, or vice versa. Maybe the GPL is the purest example of this. The cars act very "diagonally" in the replays when the actual sim is quite smooth when you drive it.

Omg, now they are posting recipies!

Gotta write more...

Hmm, can't think anything now, but you (no one) just wait... :tilt:

EDIT: Speed Soro: the blue pills, the blue pills! :D

Ball Bearing Turbo

6th February 2006, 21:18

@SpeedSoro
Alright then. There's no reason to lose your cool here and start lashing out at people. Everyone knows LFS has bugs. Noone is denying that, and noone is saying they don't want them fixed. You're missing the fact that Scawen has acknowledged the problems. That's already more than you'll get anywhere else.

I understand your reasoning, but there's a problem: Read carefully:

Pointing out the bugs, threatening to stop playing LFS, saying other things are better etc etc etc is NOT (note emphasis) going to make Scawen work any faster and/or better than he already is. Yes he took a break. The break is over, and he's working on things that bother you and everyone else. Nothing you do, including the "pressure" you exert (which I suspect amounts to nothing at the end of Scawen's day) will make this process faster. The process is already as fast as it can be. You act like the dev don't care, which is where you're dead wrong. They chose to do this remember? I'm sure they're a lot more concerned than you are as to whether there's bread on their tables, which really is none of our business anyway.

RECAP
1) LFS HAS PROBLEMS
2) DEVS KNOW
3) DEVS SAID JANUARY IS WORK TIME
4) YOUR "PRESSURE" IS GOING TO HAVE ZERO EFFECT ON DEVELOPMENT TIME
5) THE DEVS CARE ABOUT LFS EVEN MORE THAN YOU.

three_jump

6th February 2006, 21:23

... again again again and again ...
grass is not growing faster when you pull it.

I think the devs worked really hard for the alpha release of s2, I don't think they had much freetime in the last years. after the release they took a longer break form working spend some time in real life, do some house work (kitchen and stuff).
Yes, it's long ago till the last bigger physics update and yes, sometimes it would be really nice to know what the three are doing.

But i can't understand why you guys come always with the same points the devs already know? Everytime there is a thread you bring the same arguments and everytime you get the same answers by the rest of the community. The devs work as fast as the can / want with their own style and way they want to. This game was never meant to be finished soon, it's about steady developement and improving.
I also think the dev's already know about the physic bugs, no need to point this out everytime. (I think all of us know already about the bugs LFS has, and most of us are not saying that there are no bugs, but this game is imho the most bugfree game I ever had and you even have lots of fun with 20 drivers on track, enjoy leagues and stuff)

I understand that you want the best for the game, want fixes / updates for everything, but sometimes it's better to wait and get a high qual patch instead of 10 little ones. (Scawen already pointed out, that physic updates will only happen in big patches, as they split the compatibility).
So we have to wait, until the devs say / think that a patch it finished and ready for the mass.
If they would release a buggy patch you would also complain....

There are so many different good games out there, if you are tired of lfs, play another game ahve some fun there and come back when you want to. (hmm, like the devs, just have a break ;)).

just my 2 cents....

Hyperactive

6th February 2006, 21:23

We had actually a lecture at uni today about thing that affect work and how people work under pressure. The result was that every human works slower when they are put under pressure by their bosses. So telling someone to work faster will actually make them work slower :)

So it's scientific or something... :D

I need to find a good mämmi recipe to put it here :)

mosquito25

6th February 2006, 21:32

I need to find a good mämmi recipe to put it here :)What about this one? http://www.saunalahti.fi/~marian1/gourmet/mammi.htm
Remember, I'm a frenchie, not sure if it's good.

In this case, maybe I can replace the diet lunch with burgundy snails or frogs' legs (of course with a Bourgogne Alligoté)

Me.Profile.FloodCount++;

mrbogeyman

6th February 2006, 22:25

round and around and around and around.

i think we have all heard every single argument that has been put forward hear umpteen times already.................zzzzzzzz

is nobody getting dizzy or bored?

i know you guys obviously disagree, but continually regurgitating the same points isnt getting us anywhere, and it is certainly not constructive.

everyone is aware of the faults in LFS, and the devs even more so. im sure every effort is being made to fix these faults, but only one step can be taken at a time.

for the mean time, keep yourselves happy with whatever works for you, if you dont like LFS, dont play it. i even get annoyed/bored with it sometimes.

ill stop now before i end up regurgitating what has already been said.

kamkorPL

6th February 2006, 22:25

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~marian1/gourmet/mammi.htm (http://www.saunalahti.fi/%7Emarian1/gourmet/mammi.htm)

Eh, Think!

"These preparations take many hours, and after baking mammi has yet to be stored in refrigerator for 3 to 4 days before being ready to eat"

Now Scawen is going to be busy in his new pimped kitchen, making mämmi for himself, Eric and Victor:doh: :irked:

In 5 days...
Ze Mammi Experience - Devs (http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/715/zemammiexperience27yn.jpg)

filur

6th February 2006, 23:03

Victor

6th February 2006, 23:32

Just in case there's some confusion about what people said in posts - it's been split off from the kitchen thread - this split-off thread may contain some references to the other thread, even though I tried to separate the two (but I'm not going to edit people's posts over this)

Speed Soro

7th February 2006, 00:54

I can't go away from this game, even feeling angry with some cars and some bugs... even playing it less and less each week, I feel it's impossible to give up him...

If Scawen did at least better AI's, and resolved the grip bugs, I'd be happy, for one year maybe.

I don't care too much about OW cars, and I really don't care too much about clutch pack SLD.

I mean, I care, but my favourite car is XFR and the others GTRs, so, if the game were just with those 4 cars, but without the grip bug and good (fast and fair) AIs, the game would margin the perfection (ok ok... I'm a little exaggerated...)

Of course there would be a lot of things to do yet, but those would be complementation, not fundamental things.

Many people would say: AI is not important. Ok, but it is, at least for me and a lot of people who I know. To trainny, to have some fun without get nervous with stupid kids, to play without connection...

AIs are something important, but not so important as to correct the grip bug, the most important thing to fix, I guess.

Scawen has said that is probably caused by the transition zone in the adherence limite, and that he is working on it. Lets wait he found the solution. But, while the solution does not come, what should we do?

Yes, GTR is a great game, GTL too, althoug I can't say the same about SIMBIN. They smeel too comercial for me, but what can I do if their games are so great... I guess GTR2 will be a fantastic game, but even yet miles away from LFS immersion.

Victor, you could at least give us a tenuous light about how the things are going... if them are going...

Racer Y

7th February 2006, 03:21

You know, you people can complain about the grip, complain about the A.I.,
complain about the aero bug - hell, even complain about the people that complain, I don't really care. BUT...BUT... NEVER EVER COMPLAIN ABOUT
THE IN DASH CLOCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!! That has got to be the coolest thing ever done with any car game or sim ever made.

@the "boys from Brasil" I think you probably have a legitimate gripe, but
well you're sorta kicking a dead horse. I imagine fixing them will take some time as well. If they don't have the bugs fixed yet, What do you want to be said?
lol "Hi! How's things going? After a much needed break, we decided to start work again. Uh, nothing's fixed yet." I mean would that help much?

Me personally would like to see a whole lot of stuff that probably won't ever be used in the game..... Replace the tires with flaming trashcans for S.City...interactive spectators... a corkscrew.... a quarter pipe and a rail.
But you know, oh well......

@ Kidcodea... Some body say, TAMPAX?????

KiDCoDEa

7th February 2006, 03:36

Replace the tires with flaming trashcans for S.City...

hell yeah! and u could hit them and spill the burning oil all over the track!
for a big combo you'd get special pantera cowboys from hell samples.
interactive crowd would be nice if u could load the gti with some lo poly hoes u pickup, and free roam into the blackwood forest, where u could hear the little birds that were scared away from the track in 0.04L, and do "amusing things" [tristan (tm)] with them.

tristancliffe

7th February 2006, 11:36

I love the smell of Napalm at South City in the morning :D

AndroidXP

7th February 2006, 11:41

Apocaliveforspeed Now! :D

Ball Bearing Turbo

7th February 2006, 15:19

NEVER EVER COMPLAIN ABOUT
THE IN DASH CLOCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!! That has got to be the coolest thing ever done with any car game or sim ever made.

:iagree:

ebola

7th February 2006, 16:57

your a fool

Hallen

7th February 2006, 17:20

:rofl: :rofl: your a fool:rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:dunce:

AndroidXP

7th February 2006, 17:37

your a fool
You're :mad:

How about we open up a new complaint area? Just a special sub-forum that let's users complain about LFS. I mean, nobody has to know that this forum would be invisible to the devs but... oh. Damn :(

Ball Bearing Turbo

7th February 2006, 17:38

your a fool

At least I can speak properly :shrug:

What's with people lately and the sudden rash of stunning intellectual and though provoking responses?

GianniC

7th February 2006, 17:55

LFS is great. :D
It could be greater, but that just demands time. Can't people have patience anymore ? Developing a game demands time. Just like a lot of things demand time to be at a certain level "good", and I'm sure one day in a near or even far future LFS S2-full will be out. And I'll have as much fun as I have now, perhaps even more. Cause LFS is for me about people, people who became friends while the time tik-takked away, and then the other part is the racing itself. The level of competition (and my only wish is: improve the KB online competition level again cause thàt is what I miss from my time with the S1 demo, before the L patches or what letter it was again).I'm sure the devs do their best, if they lissen to my remark, about online competition level for non wheel racers, or not, I don't care.
I'm sure I had fun with LFS, I have fun now and that I will have fun in the future.

grass is not growing faster when you pull it.[
I'm not so sure about that tho.. :tilt:

axus

7th February 2006, 17:59

OMG, Speed Soro, you are still going on? I think it has been about a month... maybe more now. Can you just sit back and let the devs do their thing? And maybe some other people want some other things to be fixed in the physics patch. Ever consider OTHER PEOPLE? Or perhaps move to America - you might be more at home there... Ever consider the fact that there will be one physics patch for a good while and people are relying on that to cover the physics updates they want? Maybe some want a torsen diff to make the RA handle realistically, maybe some want extra grip on the racing line so that you don't get people pulling stupidly dangerous moves around the inside of a corner, maybe some don't really care about aerodynamics but just want the road cars to handle right... Scawen has to make all these people happy and it won't happen any faster with you breathing down his neck. He said physics would take a few months and he would go quite for a while. He has gone quite so it is pretty safe to assume that he is working on physics like he has said he would be in about 5 different places so I don't see why he has to repeat himself again. Victor won't tell you how close the patch is because the last time he said something about a release date, he regreted it with people putting words in his mouth. Scawen doesn't even know when the patch will be out. It will be out when it is ready. Just be patient and wait for it.

Blackout

7th February 2006, 18:12

In 5 days...
Ze Mammi Experience - Devs (http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/715/zemammiexperience27yn.jpg)

Thats so cool pic
:huepfenic

joshdifabio

7th February 2006, 18:34

In 5 days...
Ze Mammi Experience - Devs (http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/715/zemammiexperience27yn.jpg)
lmao

ebola

7th February 2006, 21:29

Yes I know, not exactly a thought provoking response but Speed Soro had driven me to destruction!!!! :)

Ball Bearing Turbo

7th February 2006, 22:07

ack, I thought you were call me down for thinking the clocks were cool!

Vain

7th February 2006, 22:29

The clocks are important! LFS is too addictive to look away from the screen to find a clock. So we need a clock onscreen. I'd even like to have one all cars, though it may look strange in an FO8. But a clock is more important than a lousy speedometer.

Vain

Tweaker

7th February 2006, 22:51

But a clock is more important than a lousy speedometer.

I disagree. The speedometer is like the only resource a driver can use to know if they are at their normal pace. To know if they exit corners quickly or quicker. Sometimes people use speed readings as shiftpoints, and so on.

The clock... well I like it, but I don't use it. It is absolutely pointless at times, and it really has only been glanced at 1 time out of the hundreds of late-night races I've had. Would much rather have the dash revamped to look nicer and more realistic, than to worry if the clock will stay or be removed.

spankmeyer

8th February 2006, 02:56

"What LFS needs... is more clocks." :D

deggis

8th February 2006, 08:24

I love the smell of Napalm at South City in the morning :D
We need gun attachments to the cars! Mad Max mod! Yeah! \:D/

Funnybear

8th February 2006, 09:38

Any information you can get would be benificial. Clocks, Revs, Mph, nearest drivethrough. But it should be custurmisable to the nth degree, some drivers like to know everything, some drivers just want to drive . .

As my dad was fond of saying, you can always take it away but you can't put back what you ain't got . . . . Or something anyway. I really should have listened to my father more, it's always one of those things that you don't learn untill to late. I think he said soimething about that too . . .

Nick_ll

8th February 2006, 10:26

Patch? Ok here goes my prediction of what will happen.
In approx. 6 months from now, a physics patch will be released. It will fix the aero exploit and tire physics. The high nose setups won't be useable anymore and will even (as they should) slow cars down, and maybe flip them over. The cars will be awesome fun to drive with improved tire physics. But! There will not be preload on diff implemented, no lock on clutch pack diff, no speed adjusting dampers, no 3rd spring on cars it would apply to, no ground effects, no non-symetrical suspension settings, the wheels will still have no bolts and be untextured, the dashboards will be the same and there will be nothing changed for the sounds either. Oh but wait wait wait, we will have one new Aston config available! What for anything else? Wait for S2 Final in a year (that's August 2007 for you my friends).

I will say that I have not played LFS for probably 2 or 3 months now, and my life isn't going any worse. I will play it again the day a patch will be out to see what has been made, and hopefully the devs will have proven this post more than 50% wrong with many more features/improvements than I believe we will get.

Vain

8th February 2006, 13:22

There are people that use a speedo? Only rev counter. Anything else is bad-habit in my book. :)

Vain

Ball Bearing Turbo

8th February 2006, 15:35

Patch? Ok here goes my prediction of what will happen.

:( :schwitz: :Looking_a

B2B@300

8th February 2006, 15:51

There are people that use a speedo? Only rev counter. Anything else is bad-habit in my book.

Yeah thats fine for real life, but every time you change gear ratio's the RPM references you may have go out the window, and also in the absence of a true sence of speed, the speedo is the only way to go imo
Infact it frustrates me that the virtual speedo or Rev counter for those that like that, is stuck down in the bottom corner of the screen... I'd like it to be custonizable in size and positioning :tilt:

And Nick if thats all that was in the patch it's fine by me :) but I predict it will be abit sooner in that case :p

ebola

8th February 2006, 15:59

ack, I thought you were call me down for thinking the clocks were cool!

Nah wouldnt do that!! I forgot to quote Soro, I can see how it could have looked like I was calling you a fool. I will be more careful next time :D

Ball Bearing Turbo

8th February 2006, 17:26

Nah wouldnt do that!! I forgot to quote Soro, I can see how it could have looked like I was calling you a fool. I will be more careful next time :D

:drink:

Nick_ll

8th February 2006, 20:29

And Nick if thats all that was in the patch it's fine by me :) but I predict it will be abit sooner in that case :p

Oh it would be fine by me too.....if there was only one dev....but in case you didn't notice yet, what my prediction says is nothing appart from a new Aston config (which basically is just removing walls and putting others elsewhere) will be released in terms of Eric's work.

Oh and I stand with my point: final physics patch with nothing else than physics in August of this year.

tristancliffe

8th February 2006, 20:37

Ball Bearing Turbo

8th February 2006, 20:38

Man I hope you're incorrect and out to lunch :(

EDIT: ARGH TRISTAN

This post was @Nick

Ball Bearing Turbo

8th February 2006, 20:42

And I personally think we'll see something towards the end of March. Then I reckon we'll get another update by August with other stuff.
Eric will release revised car and track models, and they'll look spanking.
If you don't want to wait there are other lesser sims waiting for you, or
you can always make your own sim like Todd is doing.

This seems more reasonable, there has been a pretty serious gap in terms of the work with the models, IE the promised LX & RB4 models that were supposed to change, and still haven't. The more time goes by the more I am expecting I guess though.:razz:

Plus, Todd is not a human really so he doesn't count LOL.
BTW he's from the planet Zorkon last I heard.

mrbogeyman

8th February 2006, 20:54

Cheer up Nick. The glass IS half full.

Scawen has said he is working on the tyres. And I personally think we'll see something towards the end of March. Then I reckon we'll get another update by August with other stuff.

Eric will release revised car and track models, and they'll look spanking.

Victor will continue to make the the [LFS] world go round.

Have faith, good things come to those who wait, and it WILL be worth the wait. If you don't want to wait there are other lesser sims waiting for you, or you can always make your own sim like Todd is doing.

I hope what you say comes true, but I cant help thinking that you are upping the ante and possibly creating more hype and expectations.

I have every faith that the devs are busy, but I think it is a little bit presumptious to say exactly what will happen and when, unless you have insider knowledge...........:scratchch(jk)

Mogar

8th February 2006, 23:57

Well, you all assume that Scawen is working on physics.

Some say "wait, he started working on physics in January, so we will have to wait for some more months to have a patch".

But, what were Scawen doing since the release of S2 alpha ? Taking a break ?? Since August they should have been working on physics, because the aero bug is known before the release of patch P2 (on August).

He said that only now that he started to work again he will look into physics issues.... So they are telling us that from August to November they were working only on minor bugs and language patchs someway, from november to january they did nothing, and just now they will start to look into the issues ??

Everyone is saying that devs are working so hard that they can't even read the forum or write a progress report, but if you look what I said, there are good reasons to doubt that they are working that hard. They don't write a single word about what they have been working, with some unaceptable excuses (telling what they were doing just kept the community more interested in LFS rather then made ppl believe that some things were going to be done and they don't).

Everyone believe that they are working hard, but did they show any proof that they are doing it ? Ok, LFS is a big piece of work for a single guy, and everyone believes him based on what we have today, but what we have today is almost the same thing as 8 months ago, and since then we have just very small info hidden in this forum.

IMO, there is no reason to believe in this, and what makes me doubt even more is their attitude about the critics on LFS, and the way that they have lost the touch with the community.

Ok, some lucky guys may have contact with Scawen, and they say that he is working. But I would never tell a costumer from a friend of mine that my friend is lazy and he will not do his work on time (I'm not calling Scawen nor the other devs lazy)..... I believe that the devs need to be more in touch with the community like on the old days. Today they only come here when there are BIG issues that may hurt license selling (like the ATI driver's bug).

Hyperactive

9th February 2006, 00:13

No, wait, March is just couple of weeks from here... I'd say we can start wait the patch in mid-april. But no one really knows, not even the devs. The aero bug has been known for very long time but who knows why it hasn't been fixed. I have said it hundreds of times and I say it again: the aero bug is critical (the same way as the wmf bug was in windowses). imho of course.

This all comes basically to one single thing: the devs don't tell us what is going on and this ok for some and not ok for some. I'm in the middle. But it would be nice to see some new arguments...

Too bad there is nothing good that I could drive while waiting, except the LFS which is still great fun :D

Speed Soro

9th February 2006, 00:35

We are always saying that LFS is fun, but is not fun exactly what we look the most of time.

We look for race.

And LFS give us races.

We can consider that you can race everything, you can race with cars, boats, bikes, rabbits, and pc games.

It isn't necessary that a racing game be a racing car game. I mean, it is not necessary that the game imitates at max level a car behavior to become a racing game.

You can race it, and it is a race cause you are driving something daring the time.

But once you start thinking you should be driving a real car, and this game lauds that, you ask for reality, not just immersion.

LFS give us immersion and a good amount of realism, but there are lacks still there, and we are wainting for the patches which will fix those ones for a long time now.

8 months are 8 months, it is not a short time, it is a long long wait.

I try to cheat myself once in a while saying that I do not like LFS anymore, but I can't sustent this lie for more than 2 weeks.

Today I watched the Steven Kranhold video and remember how much I love this game.

Scawen has his life, has his days and his things to do in his life beyond LFS. For us, for now, just the waiting and the faith he be healthy and working for us.

B2B@300

9th February 2006, 01:56

8 months are 8 months, it is not a short time, it is a long long wait.

Time is a very relative thing :D ask an 80 year old if 8 months is a long time :tilt: for me 8 months is like 2 months when I was 18 or like 3 weeks when I was 12 :razz:

Rob76

9th February 2006, 02:06

I already asked about this on some other thread. I don't undestand how can anyone call LFS's damage model good at the current stage? Of course the dynamic way it's been done is way better than "scripted damage model" but currently it lacks so many things.

The damage model is good because it models the important bit well (suspension damage) without focusing on the eye candy.

Moving forwards I'd like to see aero damage modeled next, then maybe engine/cooling damage. For me improvements to the visuals (e.g debris falling off, etc.) should be last on the list, yet in many other sims all you get is the flashy visual damage, with possibly a rudimentary performance damage model thrown in.

LFS, for me, even without aero damage, has the most subtle damage model of any sim, which stems from the strong physics model. Yes there are bugs and need for improvement, but as with all things in LFS, what we have at this stage is good and it's only going to get better and better....

mosquito25

9th February 2006, 02:57

It seems something wrong in my diagnostic : it's not fully moon related.

Hmmmmmm <---------------(Brainstorming)

Ever thought seeing a gynecologist?

Rob76

9th February 2006, 03:58

You know, everyone says that. but I don't like to look at it that way.
Because looking at it that way, to me means paying about 65$ (US)
for a game that I can't get all of yet. That just SOUNDS wrong.
espescially when complete games here are around $50. It sounds better to me if you call S-1 a complete game and S-2 and 3 expansion packs.
then it sounds like a hell of a deal.

$65 does sound pricey (Xbox 360 pricey) if you had to front up the cash in one go. Somebody new to LFS when S3 is realeased in 200x may find it a little steep but for those of us that have been with it since 2003 have already had more than our money's worth :) Also, 36 quid is just about right for a full price game in the UK. It's the current shitty dollar that makes it seem expensive here in the US.

As you say, treating S2 and S3 as expansion packs also makes it seem great value, but the best way for me is to work out the $/hours enjoyment I've got out of LFS. So far the only computer games that probably challenges LFS in this measurement were some of the games on my old Speccy (cost the princely sum of £2.99 back in the 80's). F1GP on the Amiga may have soaked up almost as much of my life as LFS, but it cost me more than I've spent on LFS so far....

mosquito25

9th February 2006, 04:24

...But I would never tell a costumer from a friend of mine that my friend is lazy and he will not do his work on time (I'm not calling Scawen nor the other devs lazy)..... loooooooooooooooooooooooool
Of course not :D ^^
You're just droping a hint about that
Well, you all assume that Scawen is working on physics.
...
But, what were Scawen doing since the release of S2 alpha ? Taking a break ?? Since August they should have been working on physics, because the aero bug is known before the release of patch P2 (on August).

He said that only now that he started to work again he will look into physics issues.... So they are telling us that from August to November they were working only on minor bugs and language patchs someway, from november to january they did nothing, and just now they will start to look into the issues ??

Everyone is saying that devs are working so hard that they can't even read the forum or write a progress report, but if you look what I said, there are good reasons to doubt that they are working that hard. They don't write a single word about what they have been working, with some unaceptable excuses (telling what they were doing just kept the community more interested in LFS rather then made ppl believe that some things were going to be done and they don't).

Everyone believe that they are working hard, but did they show any proof that they are doing it ? Ok, LFS is a big piece of work for a single guy, and everyone believes him based on what we have today, but what we have today is almost the same thing as 8 months ago, and since then we have just very small info hidden in this forum.

IMO, there is no reason to believe in this, and what makes me doubt even more is their attitude about the critics on LFS, and the way that they have lost the touch with the community.

Awesome :trampolin :ices_rofl

Edit : I can do that too: I'm not saying you're silly, I just doubt you're intelligent

Edit2 : Nothing personal, of course. I'm just applying a basic anti-troll countermeasure

Nick_ll

9th February 2006, 07:19

rofl good one mosquito :D

Still everyone don't get your hopes up. Don't listen to Tristan or when a patch will be released you'll be sad it doesn't include what you tought it would. Simple logic here: all we know is that a patch one day will come and it will include physics fixes/improvements. We know nothing else, so let's assume it will include nothing else. So I still stand with my point: 6 months sounds a reasonable margin considering the time to read, investigate what's wrong, code, fix bugs, being delayed (because this is software developpement for you) and releasing something...and Eric will have done nothing (or at least it's not gonna be released in that patch).
Oh and Tristan, no matter what, the glass is ALWAYS half empty.

mosquito25

9th February 2006, 07:30

rofl good one mosquito :D Thanks ;)

But my countermeasure system is just lvl 1 ATM, and I can upgrade it at lvl 7 at a very low cost ;)

Edit :
Countermeasure system upgraded to lvl 2 : multi-target locking enabled
Armed & ready
# locked targets : 3

AndroidXP

9th February 2006, 08:34

But, what were Scawen doing since the release of S2 alpha ? Taking a break ?? Since August they should have been working on physics, because the aero bug is known before the release of patch P2 (on August).
Yes, exactly that.

*whine*whine*whine*moan*whine*moan*moan*whine*whin e* ARRRGH

Funnybear

9th February 2006, 10:28

This Aero fix is obviously a fairly big bit of coding. Also it's infintesimally complicated, Cahnge a bit of code in teh wrong place and the cars are driving upside down (Or something). I am sure that if Scawen was to release an updated code that was not fully tested or implemented he would come under FAR more critism and abuse than he his already. I have kudos for the Devs for not taking the bait and listeneing the constant whining that is coming from these forums. In fact If I was one of them, I wouldn't even look at these Forums until I had done what I had to do . . I've said it before and no doubt I will have to say it again. I feel I have had good value for money out of the game (Sorry, SIM) so far. It has lasted far longer in playability than many of the other games that I have paid more money for in recent months. And it's still in Alpha. And there's still more to come!!

So all of yer getting yer knickers in a twist catch a dose of realism and wise up to the way of the world. You'll get what you get when you get it . . .

If I was a really vindictive Dev at this point I would make a list of all those naysayers and uber critics and make them wait whilst everyone else got the new release. I think about an extra month would piss them off suffiently . . .

Nuff sed. Respect to the Devs. Bra.

Hyperactive

9th February 2006, 18:52

Actually there is a real guessing thread made some time ago about when the next patch will/would be: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3211

:)

Mogar

9th February 2006, 22:03

Edit : I can do that too: I'm not saying you're silly, I just doubt you're intelligent

Edit2 : Nothing personal, of course. I'm just applying a basic anti-troll countermeasure

I don't have to prove to you that I'm inteligent, because you're not my costumer, nor have paid several months ago in advance for something that I didn't release yet.

Nothing personal of course.

And just to clarify, I was NOT calling the devs lazy (I still prefer to believe that they are working hard, just having trouble to do the necessary improvements since code a software like this is far from easy, and I know that, but they could show us on what they were working on). Just wanted to give a strong example, and I run short of words to express my feelings.

Nuff sed. Respect to the Devs. Bra.

Ok ok, let's keep the "shhhh, devs are working" for ever. We could even suggest to disable the forum, then there will not be anyone complaining here about bugs, long delays, etc. Let the devs do what they want at the time that they want, and give money to them trusting that we will have some update in the future.

If I was a really vindictive Dev at this point I would make a list of all those naysayers and uber critics and make them wait whilst everyone else got the new release. I think about an extra month would piss them off suffiently . . .

You would have to be very very stupid for that. If you want to be a respectable dev, you need to respect your costumers.

I'm not complaining without reasons to be complaining. The difference between some here and me is that my patience with LFS is running out, and with some top grade drivers that are exploiting the physics and make LFS be like a game instead a simulator. Lots of people that say that I didn't understand the purpose of LFS is destroying it by exploiting bugs and facing LFS as a racing GAME instead a simulator.

And before someone start to criticize me, just think if you are facing LFS as a game instead a simulator. If you are using locked differentials on non-drag races, so, just shut up.

I'm not frustated with LFS itself, but with the way that ppl are exploiting bugs as if it was a normal thing, but it's CHEATING (it's the SAME thing than using wall hacks or bunny hops on FPS games), and the lost of contact of the devs with the community.

So actually I'm frustrated with the people involved with LFS than LFS itself. If LFS din't have those bugs, the situation would be different, but the fault is from the people involved with LFS. It may sound contraditory with what I've saying for some time, but it's something that I concluded now.

Funnybear

9th February 2006, 22:26

Mate. I understand that people are impatient for a procduct they feel they have paid for. I am all for the freedom of speech and I would never take away your right to voice your feelings on this matter. But I still feel that a certain Amount of understanding is needed here. In development terms we have been given a very unusual view of work in progress. And that is what this is, work in progress. The Devs are trying a very novel approach to generating a "game". They have asked us to trust them. they have asked for our money on the promise that they will deliver. A consept that I can only imagine working in Cyber space, because in Real Life that sort of business practice is comercial suicide. But I think this will work. Yes we have all spent our money. And yes we are all expevting more game for our dosh. But at the end of the day I have only spent £24, and I feel I have got my money's worth, new realease or not. The whole ethos of this project is that it is Indie. And in that you have to give as much as you take. This is not a commercial realease as of yet. that is a few years away yet. What would be far more constructive is if you could offer more positive critisism in the way of physics bugs or general game play issues rather than complaining about the money you have spent for a half finished game. If you want a finished game go pay £40 for a pile of shit in the shops. I for one am very happy about being part of a development community, that is worth the dosh in itself. And once the next release is due, I sahll cough up the extra 12 quid and keep going with something that I feel, in some very minor way, I have contributed too.

With all your retoric don't forget that you subscribed to an Alpha test that still requires alot of work. You paid you money for that. Not for a full game. It may take longer than you wish for, but this is not instant gratification. Very few things in life are.

Your quote.

'You would have to be very very stupid for that. If you want to be a respectable dev, you need to respect your costumers.'

If your talking about Costumers, I would like a musketeer one please. I fancy Porthos, with a period Rapier. Thankyou.

Speed Soro

9th February 2006, 22:28

I'd like to hear something too.

Maybe Scawen be working so hard in the code that he has no time neither head to look to the forum.

Maybe he is so distant from the game that not even the forum interests him anymore.

Who knows?

keiran

9th February 2006, 22:39

Scawen said earlier he is fed up with these threads so I highly doubt he will bother responding. As for the bugs they may not be realistic but you can hardly call them a 'hack' etc. If everyone can use them then there is no 'hack' or 'cheat' about it. Tell me any game out there that doesn't have bugs :/ all the other race sims I've played have major faults to.

You have to remember when you compare LFS physics to other games the detail is just amazing. So we can only assume the coding of LFS is very complex and it's going to take Scawen longer as the game develops to sort these things out.

I'd rather wait for a patch that will solve most of the bugs without causing others than make Scawen rush and make mistakes.

Keiran

Mogar

9th February 2006, 22:59

If everyone can use them then there is no 'hack' or 'cheat' about it

Bunny hop on Counter Strike was acessible for everyone (since it was a "physics" fault, and didn't need external programs to be able to use, it was just up to your ability), but was considered cheating, and anyone cought using bunny hop on leagues was just banned.

Scawen said earlier he is fed up with these threads so I highly doubt he will bother responding.

This don't prevent him from keep contact with the community talking about what he have been doing about LFS, asking the community what they would prefer to see in the next patch (I doubt that anyone would prefer the language packs instead physics improvements) like the old days.

Vykos69

9th February 2006, 23:04

This don't prevent him from keep contact with the community talking about what he have been doing about LFS, asking the community what they would prefer to see in the next patch (I doubt that anyone would prefer the language packs instead physics improvements) like the old days.
He never ever did ask, what you would prefer to see next. The three has good contact with the community, cause they listen to bugreports, concerns and everything, but there is a line that the community will never cross into development. And especially one thing is clear: The three decide - and decided in the past - what will come next.

Hallen

9th February 2006, 23:13

I don't have to prove to you that I'm inteligent, because you're not my costumer, nor have paid several months ago in advance for something that I didn't release yet.
You have already gotten what you paid for. The devs could just draw the line and say what we have now is S2 final. Don't complain about not getting what you paid for when you already have. You don't like it the way it is, and that is OK, but it is not the same as not receiving the item you have paid for.

Nothing personal of course.

And just to clarify, I was NOT calling the devs lazy (I still prefer to believe that they are working hard, just having trouble to do the necessary improvements since code a software like this is far from easy, and I know that, but they could show us on what they were working on). Just wanted to give a strong example, and I run short of words to express my feelings.

Yes, you did call them lazy. Your comment comes across like the devs should not be able to take a weekend off because you have not gotten what you wanted. It might not be what you intended to say, but that is what you said.

Ok ok, let's keep the "shhhh, devs are working" for ever. We could even suggest to disable the forum, then there will not be anyone complaining here about bugs, long delays, etc. Let the devs do what they want at the time that they want, and give money to them trusting that we will have some update in the future.

You would have to be very very stupid for that. If you want to be a respectable dev, you need to respect your costumers.

Now you think you can tell us what the devs are thinking. These devs respect their customers more than any other game developers I have ever seen. You do not respect or trust their judgment, so you think that gives you the right to imply they are lazy and that they don't respect you. You sound like a child who needs immediate gratification and just can't understand it when you can't have what you want right now, now, now, gimme, gimmme, I want it nooowwwwww!

I'm not complaining without reasons to be complaining.
Yes, you are.

And before someone start to criticize me, you throw inuendo and accusations and then stand back and expect to not have your thoughts critisized is just plain ignorant. just think if you are facing LFS as a game instead a simulator. If you are using locked differentials on non-drag races, so, just shut up. sigh... no, using locked diffs is not realistic. But it also does not drastically detract from the usability of the program for its intended purpose. You just have to get past this stuff and let it go. We have brought it to the attention of the developers. They will fix it as soon as they can.

I'm not frustated with LFS itself, but with the way that ppl are exploiting bugs as if it was a normal thing, but it's CHEATING (it's the SAME thing than using wall hacks or bunny hops on FPS games), and the lost of contact of the devs with the community. So, are you nieve enough to think that just because it is an exploit, that nobody will use it? It is best to expose this stuff and use it so it is the same for everybody. If it is the same for everybody (WHICH IT IS), then it is not cheating.

So actually I'm frustrated with the people involved with LFS than LFS itself. If LFS din't have those bugs, the situation would be different, but the fault is from the people involved with LFS. It may sound contraditory with what I've saying for some time, but it's something that I concluded now.
Yeah, yeah. You again are just lamenting that you can't have what you want right now, you sound very spoiled. Only somebody who has not worked hard and long to achieve something big could ever think that something as difficult and complex as LFS could be fixed RIGHT NOW, just because you want it to be. I know your mommy probably wipes your butt for you just as soon as you are done going poo, but the real world just isn't the same.

tristancliffe

9th February 2006, 23:19

Speed Soro - the more you cry about how unfair life is and how all the girls hate you, the LESS likely Scawen is to post. It's compaints like yours (i.e. unreasonable considering we all knew how LFS was developed, or could have found out, and that LFS isn't behind scedule because there isn't one) that drive devs to suicide (or terminal silence).

Give us and the devs a break and calm down, please. Pretty please. I'll give you all the mints and sweets I have in my pocket.

Mogar

9th February 2006, 23:42

He never ever did ask, what you would prefer to see next

I might be wrong, but I thought that I have already seen they asking that kind of thing, at least once.

But one thing you can't deny, we always had a idea of what was comming on next patch and a estimate date of the release, and usually they surprised us doing more than they said they were going to do on S1 days

Maybe they stopped doing that since the several delays of S2 release. If I'm not wrong, it was promised first to something like last quarter from 2004, and then it was delayed, delayed, until some beta tester leaked one version, and the devs almost had to release a demo to avoid ppl playing a faulty version (the leaked version had some obvious faults, that could make angry ppl even angrier).

But we can't forget that the Devs were much far from what they have expected to released in S2. Damage modeling, new diffs and some other things were planned only to S3. Maybe they didn't plan accordingly, or thought that they could do more than they actually could do.

Anyway, I still think that it's much more "healthy" to LFS to keep the community informed about the developing process. Today, we know almost nothing, that gives margin to some ppl think wrong things, and maybe make ppl angry.

I think that although there is no way to make everyone happy, the strong supporters (like I was) liked much more the days that we were informed about the developing process, than today, that we know nothing (we just know that someday somehow the devs plan to make a workaround on the aero and tyre bug, and maybe they will make S3, nothing more than this).

Yes, you did call them lazy. Your comment comes across like the devs should not be able to take a weekend off because you have not gotten what you wanted. It might not be what you intended to say, but that is what you said.

I'm not against anyone taking a break, but the way that the devs said, it looks like the break was too long. I know that after working for a so long time on a project it's normal to loose interest for a while, look for other activities, so a break is needed.

Anyway, LFS is still on my computer hd, taking some dust, but I will eventually try it again when a new patch is released.

And BTW, as I said before, I prefer much more a patch fixing only one issue, than a hyper mega patch fixing all bugs and adding features. The small patches could be released as test patches like the language patchs.

Yeah, yeah. You again are just lamenting that you can't have what you want right now, you sound very spoiled. Only somebody who has not worked hard and long to achieve something big could ever think that something as difficult and complex as LFS could be fixed RIGHT NOW, just because you want it to be. I know your mommy probably wipes your butt for you just as soon as you are done going poo, but the real world just isn't the same.

I'm probably so unsatisfied since LFS is the only game that I play (or whatever is used for electronic entertainment) since I donwloaded the S1a demo (something like september or october 2003). And it started to be a more a way to be stressed than have fun on the last months, and maybe it's normal when you are a big fan from something and you get frustrated with it to be very angry.

Give us and the devs a break and calm down, please. Pretty please. I'll give you all the mints and sweets I have in my pocket.

Just a single line from Scawen on the LFS main site (except "it will be released when it's done") could be much more effective than your mints and sweets. If he says "the next patch will be released on 2007 with only the aero and tyre bug fixed", I would say ok, at least I have a date to check again the site if there is something new about it, and stop acting like a dumb checking the forum weekly to see if there is any info about the development process, and get irritaded with ppl with the "shhhhhh... devs are working" attitude.

You sound like a child who needs immediate gratification and just can't understand it when you can't have what you want right now, now, now, gimme, gimmme, I want it nooowwwwww!

I waited for a long time before complaining for a new patch release..... Before I complained about the progress reports, but after 7 months without improvements on the way that the car acts on LFS, I think that it was enough time to Scawen fix at least the aero bug and release a patch with the fix

B2B@300

9th February 2006, 23:59

And before someone start to criticize me, just think if you are facing LFS as a game instead a simulator. If you are using locked differentials on non-drag races, so, just shut up.

I'm not frustated with LFS itself, but with the way that ppl are exploiting bugs as if it was a normal thing, but it's CHEATING (it's the SAME thing than using wall hacks or bunny hops on FPS games).

I could contend, it would be more game like if it was totally even, because that is then simulating an "ideal" racing environment... this rarely exists in real life :x .

F1 is the extreme example where the race is won, more often than not off the track, in the teams ongoing development of the car.
Even in classes of race cars where they endevour to maintain an even field it is very rarely even, the V8 Supercars here in Australia is suposed to be even, but the top teams are always trying to get one up on each other (within the rules) and one team is envariably stronger than another for periods of time, until the next breakthrough or rule change :shrug:

So the fact that there are things there to "exploit", as you say, and the top drivers/teams endevour to find them before others, makes it more closely approximate real life racing than if the field is kept totally even :tilt:

I am not saying I agree with bug exploits or not, I'm just making a point. I personally would like to see some leagues where the rules are quite specific, and others that are more open (as they mostly are now), gives more variety which only makes it more interesting...

There has been improvement suggestions that would aid this and hopefully we might see some of them implemented at some stage... (i.e. setup restrictions, ballast, server info screens for house rules, etc...)

But in the mean time there is nothing stopping us from setting up servers or races where we all use a type of set (i.e. no locked diff or hybrid tyres on GTi :D ) and as a condition of racing there, you must pass your set to the moderator to check it is within spec... this would require a moderated server though and there lies the problem.

Also there's nothing stopping people lobbying league organisers to have setup restrictions (just be a pain to organise :schwitz:and enforce) or setting up your own...

Finaly, while you wait for a new patch to fix the glaring bugs that a being exploited, there will be others that are eagerly awaiting a new patch because it will invariably have "new" things to find and exploit.

In my opinion it's not about having a perfect environment, but better managing the environemet you have... which is why I believe some extra features that will enable better management should also be a priority.

AndroidXP

10th February 2006, 00:27

Give us and the devs a break and calm down, please. Pretty please. I'll give you all the mints and sweets I have in my pocket.I'll add mine too, Sue has flooded me with them :x

Falkowski83

10th February 2006, 01:20

Nick_ll

10th February 2006, 02:13

Scawen said earlier he is fed up with these threads so I highly doubt he will bother responding.

See how contradictory it is?
If Scawen did report once in a while on what he is doing, say every month or so, along the lines of 2 sentences (i.e. "I am working on aero physics ATM, it requires lot of reading but progress is going well. Eric is working on some cars details these days") , maybe in a locked sticky thread where we could find all of those little reports in posting order, he couldn't ever be fed up with these threads because there wouldn't be such threads at all.
And don't tell me it is too hard to write 2 sentences every month when there is no fixed date.

Boris Lozac

10th February 2006, 02:46

I just can't understand how some of you act over there. I really never wanted to bring this to the table, but I'm sorry, I feel that I need to. In Brazil LFS cost 1/3 of the minimum wage here (something around R$100,00, while the minimum wage is R$300,00).

I guess when you put that kind of money in a project that you believe, you become frustrated when people just make it seem normal and just don't care about the development stage, the info we are being given and just say that £24 is a small price for the game. Maybe for you it is. Here things just don't work that way.

And well, I guess you summed it all here: if you can use cheats and exploits, it is no longer a sim. It is only a game. And that's about it.

Well, did anyobody forced you to buy anything??? Is devs fault because in Brazil, it is expensive?? NO! Here in Serbia, wages are REALLY low, but i work hard, and buy things that i want, and that are worth it! This 36 euros that i payed for LFS, has payed themselfes off LONG time ago! I had/have such a good time with LFS, something i never experienced with any other game out there! Would you prefer that this is called S2 final??!! Do you wine at other sims forums, how even after years and years of existance, they can't get their cars to behave like CARS?? How their FF is uselles, and how you drive hovercrafts instead of cars? BUT NO... it says FINAL on the expensive BOX that you bought, and it even has a comment of some famous real life driver, like "OMG this is just like the real thing"... :D
DEVS DON'T OWE YOU ANYTHING, YOU OWE THEM SOME RESPECT, AND PATIENCE BECAUSE THEY GAVE YOU A SIM THAT THE CARS IN IT REALLY BEHAVE LIKE REAL CARS, AND FF IS ACTUALLY USABLE, AND GIVES YOU REAL INFORMATIONS ON WHAT IS GOING ON!
Sorry for the capital letters, but i am really fed up of this comments, "i paid for something that i didn't recieve", you paid the lousy 24 pounds for a great sim, and the updates you will recieve will be, guess what - FREE! We all know these bugs, and yes, it would be a good thing for them to be fixed.. and they WILL BE, but please stop being so CHEAP, because if you observe the LFS stages like FULL games(which you should) then you have two games for 24 pounds/dollars. But no, you are being cheap, and calls them stages, and you say things like, "S3 is really going to be expensive, 36 pounds, i can buy other games for 34 pounds every year and it has a DVD box, and a real life driver comment".. :x Then buy them, and enjoy the graphical changes that you pay 34 pounds every year!

deggis

10th February 2006, 07:48

Boris Lozac, insteald of caps lock use Enter button to make it a little bit easier to read... :shrug:

Just a month ago I was "a true LFS fan" defending on some forum LFS against few ISI fans (I don't mean RSCnet, it was just one Finnish game forum). Now I'm kinda starting to realize the facts. The fact that this is taking so damn long. I'm hopeful, maybe to hopeful, but my own not too optimistic guess for the patch release is 6 months from today.

And about the tyre physics issue... I came to LFS just after S2 was released but afaik this "driving on ice" effect has been in LFS from the very beginning. Is this really the first time Scawen "admits" the problem with low grip? Why now because the issue is not really a new thing? I guess my hopes for the next patch are too high. What if it does nothing to the low speed grip issue?

Too bad there is nothing good that I could drive while waiting, except the LFS which is still great fun :D
RBR? Too bad if you're not into rallying. :)

The damage model is good because it models the important bit well (suspension damage) without focusing on the eye candy.
I know but it still lacks so many things - firstly the mechanical failures. I also understand that the damage model isn't even supposed to be finished, afaik it was added to S2 in a hurry because people kept complaining about the ridiculous driving over curbs or something like that.

Vykos69

10th February 2006, 08:10

I might be wrong, but I thought that I have already seen they asking that kind of thing, at least once.
No

But one thing you can't deny, we always had a idea of what was comming on next patch and a estimate date of the release, and usually they surprised us doing more than they said they were going to do on S1 days
Did you? Did you know virtual startlights come? Did you know mrt would come? Did you know skidmarks would come? No, you didnt!

Maybe they stopped doing that since the several delays of S2 release. If I'm not wrong, it was promised first to something like last quarter from 2004, and then it was delayed, delayed, until some beta tester leaked one version, and the devs almost had to release a demo to avoid ppl playing a faulty version (the leaked version had some obvious faults, that could make angry ppl even angrier).It was not promised to be released at a given time, there was one mistake in an interview by victor, who said, it might come b4 xmas

But we can't forget that the Devs were much far from what they have expected to released in S2. Damage modeling, new diffs and some other things were planned only to S3. Maybe they didn't plan accordingly, or thought that they could do more than they actually could do.
LOL, no. They know what they do, and they plan. Maybe a lot of us have other ideas, of what could be important, but it's their game, their way to do it, and there is no real way to change that.

Anyway, I still think that it's much more "healthy" to LFS to keep the community informed about the developing process. Today, we know almost nothing, that gives margin to some ppl think wrong things, and maybe make ppl angry.
There you might be right. Still, compared to other games, you know way more ;)

I think that although there is no way to make everyone happy, the strong supporters (like I was) liked much more the days that we were informed about the developing process, than today, that we know nothing (we just know that someday somehow the devs plan to make a workaround on the aero and tyre bug, and maybe they will make S3, nothing more than this).
wrong. They will never do a workaround, there will be redone aero and tyre physics. And you are informed, what they do. They code. They said it, and now they do it. There were longer times in S1, where you didnt hear anything from them. ATM your latest information is: We are back in coding since end of 05/start of 06. That's 5-6 weeks away. Not a long time imho...

B2B@300

10th February 2006, 08:24

This thread cracks me up :D people just keep posting their views without even reading the responses properly and taking a moment to consider another point of view :x a forum is for discusion and that implies at least stopping a moment to listen and understand what others are saying :shrug:

Racer Y

10th February 2006, 11:32

...man, I'm bored......

Uh I keep reading in posts where so and so game is basically endorsed by a proffessional driver of some sort. There seems to be a nimber of people that seem to think that this actually maensa something as far as how good the game is. C'mon get real. That's called PRODUCT ENDORSEMENT.
It really doesn't mean anything. In fact, I guess from being an American,
when I see something that's endorsed by a celebrity or an athlete, I find it
highly suspect instead of being a positive factor.
Besides, I'm beginning to think that real racing, at the top levels aren't real races. You don't throw that much money around without SOME sort of assurances of a return.
Also, I remember products like the Thighmaster, endorsed by Suzanne Sommers and Greenpeace by Lord knows who actors.....
So an endorsement from a "real" racecar driver would more than likely cause me to ignore whatever title being pimped out.

So sure, LFS need things and I would like to see the bugs fixed yesterday,
but I hope it never sinks to the level of pandering for a professional endorser.

Ok, I'm through spinning wildly off-topic, but that IS what I think.
You may continue the Whining and anti-whining now :)

Falkowski83

10th February 2006, 12:29

DEVS DON'T OWE YOU ANYTHING, YOU OWE THEM SOME RESPECT, AND PATIENCE BECAUSE THEY GAVE YOU A SIM THAT THE CARS IN IT REALLY BEHAVE LIKE REAL CARS, AND FF IS ACTUALLY USABLE, AND GIVES YOU REAL INFORMATIONS ON WHAT IS GOING ON!
Sorry for the capital letters, but i am really fed up of this comments, "i paid for something that i didn't recieve", you paid the lousy 24 pounds for a great sim, and the updates you will recieve will be, guess what - FREE! We all know these bugs, and yes, it would be a good thing for them to be fixed.. and they WILL BE, but please stop being so CHEAP, because if you observe the LFS stages like FULL games(which you should) then you have two games for 24 pounds/dollars. But no, you are being cheap, and calls them stages, and you say things like, "S3 is really going to be expensive, 36 pounds, i can buy other games for 34 pounds every year and it has a DVD box, and a real life driver comment".. Then buy them, and enjoy the graphical changes that you pay 34 pounds every year!

Calm down. Breathe. Count from 10 to 1. Breathe.

Now go back to my post:

I guess when you put that kind of money in a project that you believe, you become frustrated when people just make it seem normal and just don't care about the development stage, the info we are being given and just say that £24 is a small price for the game. Maybe for you it is. Here things just don't work that way.

Did I ever mentioned that the devs owed me something? NO. I just said that we, the custumers, become frustrated when we don't hear anything, and when a large amount of time passes without major fixings. OK, you will say about the language pack. I won't even get there, because it has been discussed a lot of times here.

Uh I keep reading in posts where so and so game is basically endorsed by a proffessional driver of some sort. There seems to be a nimber of people that seem to think that this actually maensa something as far as how good the game is. C'mon get real. That's called PRODUCT ENDORSEMENT.

If you are talking about some of my posts in this forum, where I stated that a professional driver in Brazil said that GTR represented real life WAY better than LFS, you are dead wrong. This guy is not an endorser. He is a racing sim freak, like us. He KNOWS what racing sims are like, and he KNOWS what a real life racing car is like.

I agree with your post when it comes from endorsers, but when there is a real driver in the community that is a hardcore sim racing fan, and this guy says a lot of things, always explainings the "whys", you just can't argue with that.

Hyperactive

10th February 2006, 12:31

RBR? Too bad if you're not into rallying. :)

I have tried the demo and there is huge steering wheel lag and my pedals work in on/off mode all the time. Driving a sim with steering lag of 0.5 seconds and on/off throttle and brake will not happen :). There was a fix done by some one (in bhms...?) but it didn't do nothing.

As someone said earler in this thread that the aergo bug is the same for everyone and as a such it is not an exploit..

I could contend, it would be more game like if it was totally even, because that is then simulating an "ideal" racing environment... this rarely exists in real life .

F1 is the extreme example where the race is won, more often than not off the track, in the teams ongoing development of the car.
Even in classes of race cars where they endevour to maintain an even field it is very rarely even, the V8 Supercars here in Australia is suposed to be even, but the top teams are always trying to get one up on each other (within the rules) and one team is envariably stronger than another for periods of time, until the next breakthrough or rule change

So the fact that there are things there to "exploit", as you say, and the top drivers/teams endevour to find them before others, makes it more closely approximate real life racing than if the field is kept totally even

...
...

Finaly, while you wait for a new patch to fix the glaring bugs that a being exploited, there will be others that are eagerly awaiting a new patch because it will invariably have "new" things to find and exploit.

In my opinion it's not about having a perfect environment, but better managing the environemet you have... which is why I believe some extra features that will enable better management should also be a priority.

F1 races won more off track than on track? Sure in F1 it's extremely important to be in the right team to be able to win but it's still the driver who needs to be extremely good/gifted/lucky to be able to do that. In LFS the only thing to get a benefit over someone else is to have better setup if the drivers are equal. Currently that benefit comes from a physics bugs in aero, tires and locked diffs.

But suggesting that having bugs - exploits available makes LFS closer to real life? No. In terms of not having totally even fields? No. The field is not even because the driver skills vary so much.

Sure it raises thoughts when I read all the stuff posted here. Are they actually doing something. Maybe they are on a break? Maybe there is no progress report because there has been no progress? All I can do is hope for the best, like the majority seem to do.

spankmeyer

10th February 2006, 12:52

If you are angry and bored with the seemingly slow development progress, then maybe it's a good time for you to take a break from LFS. Log out from forum, remove all LFS-related bookmarks and try other games, start a hobby or a sport, get a girlfriend or a cat, whatever you fancy. Subscribe to LFS newsletter and you'll get a nice email when something big happens and you won't miss a thing. :)

deggis

10th February 2006, 18:45

Gabkicks

10th February 2006, 19:29

i did the steering wheel lag fix for rbr a few months ago and the game became much easier. :)

I have a DFP. and i use the old df pedal as clutch

Speed Soro

10th February 2006, 21:53

I have tried the demo and there is huge steering wheel lag and my pedals work in on/off mode all the time. Driving a sim with steering lag of 0.5 seconds and on/off throttle and brake will not happen :). There was a fix done by some one (in bhms...?) but it didn't do nothing.

Code:

("Car" ("CAR_ROOT"
InverseMass 0.000714
vecLocalInverseInertiaDiagonal 0.00083 0.00169 0.00083

-----------> MaxFFTorque 135.0

EffWheelRadius 0.315000
AntiRollBarStiffness0 30000
AntiRollBarStiffness1 20000

DangerousAcceleration 1000000.0

SubTics 1
Drive ("Drive"
)

Change MaxFFTorque from 135 to 90 or 80 and the lag will go.

Descompact the physics.rbz with winrar or other. It'll generate a folder, and inside this folder there is a file named physics.lsp. Open this file with notepad and change that value as indicated. Keep the physics folder where it is, and the game will replace the entire physics of the game for the values from physics.lsp file.

Speed Soro

10th February 2006, 21:55

I really don't care abouy the cheap $24 paid for LFS.

I really enjoy, and I face this price as a contribution. I'll give more if they ask for.

I just want to know what are they doing.

There is no reason to get bored with this kind of thread. It is just a forum.

We are just writing things here... nothing really matter.

Hyperactive

10th February 2006, 22:22

Heh, maybe it's better to hijack this thread and make it an RBR thread :)

I think that the issues are related to my wheel (Ms sidewinder precision racing wheel) which is pretty old. The steering lag isn't even the biggest problem since the pedals are on/off pedals atm. But it's the demo and I guess RBR is quite cheap nowadays so I'll probably go and buy it soon...

I got a PM from csimpok and he said that the patch for RBR helped a lot, so let the force be with me :)

...and in shiny armour the RBR came and ate us all...

Ball Bearing Turbo

10th February 2006, 22:32

Vain

10th February 2006, 22:39

Hmmm, should we split the progress report thread into a RBR progress report thread? :scratchch :D

Vain

P.S.: I also ordered RBR some days ago. ;)

sgt.flippy

10th February 2006, 23:15

I'm wanting to buy an S2 license, but with all this hassle over a progress report that should have been posted a long while ago, I'm starting to have my doubts. After reading all this I think I better wait for a patch to be sure the game is still around. I know I should not say this, but I have the crack, but I don't use it, because I can't go online with it, now I want to buy the game (so yes, there are people that use cracks to test the whole game and buy it afterwards, surprise :Looking_a).

What should I do? Buy a license as soon as I get the money (and being able to login to the bookmakers, I failed that last time I tried, the site couldn't handle my registration) or should I wait for some security (a progress report)? One thing is for sure, I'm not using the crack any longer, I'm tired of racing slow AI, and I'm also tired of racing myself.

*To everyone using a crack: get the demo, you don't know what you're missing!

:shy:Please don't ban me for being honest

Ball Bearing Turbo

10th February 2006, 23:26

.... Tristan is comming to get you

Indeed you must cease and desist using the crack... But you said you already did that soo.

YES you should buy LFS, because there WILL be updates and whatnot, there is no question about the future, so "security" is a non-issue. Even in it's current state it's a blast, and the best is yet to come so it's worth every penny and more IMHO

Gabkicks

10th February 2006, 23:35

yeah. people just get really whiney once in a while. but the patches always come eventually.:thumb: we will not be forsaken.

Hyperactive

11th February 2006, 00:38

Don't worry about people (me included) posting whiny posts about progress reports :)

LFS provides fun racing and will not die even if the devs decided to quit. The community likes/loves the game/sim and there are helpful and nice people online all the time to race with. Not that everyone is that nice, I'm there too :D

mosquito25

11th February 2006, 05:36

I'm wanting to buy an S2 license, but with all this hassle over a progress report that should have been posted a long while ago, I'm starting to have my doubts. You know, this thread is just a big Troll started by three silly men, clamoring for a progress report, abusing hypocrisy and insincerity, neglecting all awnsers we write (and dev's opinion and arguments also). Edit : I can prove it.
Read it, you'll see : apart their recurrent whining posts, our awnsers, and some RBR hints, this thread is near empty. Edit : giving you a hint : trolls I'm talking about are from Brazil. But be careful, there are many other brazilians, who aren't trolls.

Scawen said he already started working on theses bugs, but there is a huge research/experiment job before coding (and IMO a lot of testing after coding) let's give him some time to do that.

So don't base your decision on this thread.

Edit2 : thanks to the three Trolls for helping Dev's marketing :mad:

Edit3 : when they were 5 years old, all my nephews and nieces had the same kind of behaviour than these trolls, but they've stopped at 7

mosquito25

11th February 2006, 08:18

Based on a case study (3 brains panel)

Edit : part 1 : the brain & memory
Edit2 : minor updates

Blackout

11th February 2006, 08:46

You got waaaay too much spare time mosquito, nice presenation thou :thumb:

sgt.flippy

11th February 2006, 10:49

mosquito25

11th February 2006, 11:23

Okay, I'll try to use my selective memory and forget about this troll thread, and I'll try, I say try, to buy the license next month (when I get my allowance). Great idea, IMO, I think you'll enjoy ;)

P.S. mosquito, is that an upscale picture of the brain? It seems so large...Hmmm, not these ones. You know, there are several kinds of Trolls, and some require a big brain for all that high level skills and this big memory.
Giving you another example : an elephant's brain is 4 times heavier than the human ones, but we can't say an elephant is more intelligent than a human.

Hyperactive

11th February 2006, 13:14

Hmmm, not these ones. You know, there are several kinds of Trolls, and some require a big brain for all that high level skills and this big memory.
Giving you another example : an elephant's brain is 4 times heavier than the human ones, but we can't say an elephant is more intelligent than a human.

Hmm. How big is the brains of a whale...:scratchch

_rod_

11th February 2006, 13:36

Since all 3 guys that started this tread was brazilian, not all of us think that way.

Hopefully we will get something from the devs and and stfu of those kinda of people (no1 specific)

Meanwhile lets enjoy this great game that we have. :thumb:

mosquito25

11th February 2006, 13:51

Since all 3 guys that started this tread was brazilian, not all of us think that way.

Yeah, I know you're right, I'll edit my post ;)
Edit : done, hoping it's ok now ;)

_rod_

11th February 2006, 13:59

Yeah, I know you're right, I'll edit my post ;)
Edit : done, hoping it's ok now ;)

Thanks :thumb:

sgt.flippy

11th February 2006, 14:29

Yea, I'm really liking this game, and it'll be my first online purchase too!
And I agree with people saying we should get an update, or a report, just to know what they're doing. Some people know what they are doing, but not everyone, it should be made a little more public.

----------------------------brain weight (g)------body weight (ton)
P.S. sperm whale (male)---------------7,820-----------------37.00
-----African elephant------------------7,500------------------5.00

The whale his brain is equally large as to the elephant, but the elephant is much smaller... go figure!

Mogar

11th February 2006, 16:45

Okay, I'll try to use my selective memory and forget about this troll thread, and I'll try, I say try, to buy the license next month (when I get my allowance). Thanks for making me wake up :thumb: Well... it is almost 1pm here, so I should try getting up :tilt:

P.S. mosquito, is that an upscale picture of the brain? It seems so large...

Try to analyse if it worths or not without looking to hardcore supporters of LFS (like mosquito, and every other ppl that go crazy when someone just don't love LFS and acts like those extremists that are protesting about the Mohammed cartoons...... yes, their reaction look very much from those, but they can't put my computer in fire unfortunately for them) or to who only blame LFS (usually fans from arcade games like NFSU, that want NOS, upgrade kits and other bullsh*t in LFS).

The first group will tell you to buy of course, the second group will say to don't buy of course.

Think if YOU are satisfied with LFS today, and if YOU think if it worths the license (won't take in count that you've used the crack) in terms of on-line races (the reason for LFS exist IMO), more tracks and more cars.

Keep in mind the following: the goal of the developers is to make the most realistic simulator by far ever in the history, without worry if it will be too difficult to drive or if it will please the noobs, and without real cars (except for some) or real tracks to avoid commercial pressures. This is what I strongly support.

Today, LFS has a great potential, but it is still not as good than it can. Since I said, it has already a very good base, but it's unpolished and have bugs. Some of them are quite old, and may frustrate some experienced drivers (like me, that play LFS since september 2003), and LFS don't have any physics update since August 2005. We will probably have a patch, that can come in one month, two months, one year or only in 2008 (or even later), and what will come in this patch, we simply don't know.

I think that for a demo racer, the other tracks and cars, and the clean on-line races between experienced and licensed drivers, the license worths the 24 pounds. The races are much more fun, challenging and clean, the tracks are very well designed, and there are some very nice cars (that makes IMO real tracks and cars don't needed). This is what comes with the S2 license. The LFS' engine itself is the same for everyone, so what I think that is not good is not exclusive for S2 licensed drivers. The S2 content (tracks and cars) I think that worth the money

For me, the fun that I had in S1 time worths 24 pounds (I had much more fun with S1 than I had with since S2 was released). And any next stage that I feel that it worths the money, I will buy it.

Some people know what they are doing, but not everyone, it should be made a little more public.

You can bet that the beta testers (and some Ocrana guys) have loads of informations that we don't know. And hope that anyone of them leaks some info like someone did with S2 pre-alpha... :-P

mosquito25

11th February 2006, 17:49

Try to analyse if it worths or not without looking to hardcore supporters of LFS (like mosquito, and every other ppl that go crazy when someone just don't love LFS and acts like those extremists that are protesting about the Mohammed cartoons...... yes, their reaction look very much from those, but they can't put my computer in fire unfortunately for them) or to who only blame LFS (usually fans from arcade games like NFSU, that want NOS, upgrade kits and other bullsh*t in LFS).
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Amazing! :trampolin
mosquito, with a voice from beyond the grave
I'll come this night, and i'll eat all your blood. You'll die!
Pouh! :spidereek
ps : just kidding, don't be scared ;)

The first group will tell you to buy of course, the second group will say to don't buy of course.Edited for more precision : As I understand, you labeled me as a hardcore supporter, the first group. But I've just told him that
So don't base your decision on this thread.Strange, isn't it? /Edit

Edit : sry, going to take a shower, I'm wet :ices_rofl

Edit : Mosquito25 AKA MosLaden :biggrinfl

bbman

11th February 2006, 19:00

Today, LFS has a great potential, but it is still not as good than it can. Since I said, it has already a very good base, but it's unpolished and have bugs. Some of them are quite old, and may frustrate some experienced drivers (like me, that play LFS since september 2003), and LFS don't have any physics update since August 2005. We will probably have a patch, that can come in one month, two months, one year or only in 2008 (or even later), and what will come in this patch, we simply don't know.
I think THERE lies the problem... You see the potential and you think it's wasted, because nobody seems to care about the polishing (like you said)... When I look at the potential of LfS, I KNOW, that we're just one or two steps away from having THE ULTIMATE racing simulator, lightyears away from every other sim... But the main difference between your and my point of view is that I understand, that all it takes to get that is a little time and a little patience... You might not be able to see the progress, but you can TELL for sure that there is progress...

I think, you ALL (critics and "fanboys") should let go a little... Have some patience and I am sure, you'll not be disappointed... And if you're that fed up with the bugs, take a break, play something else for a change (maybe even a whole different type of game, RTS for example), and when the patch is ready, return and have a look at the changes... All this thread brings is bad feelings, just stop it please... :)

Mogar

11th February 2006, 19:38

When I look at the potential of LfS, I KNOW, that we're just one or two steps away from having THE ULTIMATE racing simulator

But do you agree that those two steps need to be taken, or else it doesn't help to have all this potential ?

We know that some day on our lives they will be taken, we will all happy when this happens (including Speed Soro, that makes too much drama about his points of view, and is too much exagerated on the way that he puts his thoughts in words). I believe that if we weren't so near from a great simulator, there won't be those discussions here in the forum.

And what is even more irritating that some users here (a lot of them actually) acts as if they were Scawen's mother, trying to make a "critics shield", and do not accept opinios that are not "ohhhh my God, LFS is perfect ! ". If you just say that LFS is not perfect, the "troll killers" come to "elimiate" the threat.

This is just like the radical muslims do. Here is a discussion forum, the opinion of other ppl should be respected and HEARD, and the extremists should not be tolerated, don't matter if in favor of LFS or against LFS. And I'm not on the "against LFS" group, like some try to make me, Speed Soro, and other drivers that like LFS but don't like the bugs look like.

[edit]

Just to clarify, I have no prejudice about muslims..... I just don't agree with extremists, be them muslims, catholics or whatever the religion, that uses distorted views of the sacred words as excuses for their acts.

tristancliffe

11th February 2006, 19:46

No one here is saying it IS perfect. It has flaws. But it has potential. It has potential with the flaws you mention. If it had no flaws it couldn't, by definition, have potential.

We are discussing it, and yes we are protecting LFS. Not because we are Scawen's bodyguards, but because so many people in this thread seem to think that with a few minor bugs LFS is crap. They (and this might apply to you) just don't get what LFS is about, how it's being developed, and why people enjoy LFS S2 Alpha as much as they do.

Falkowski83

11th February 2006, 19:47

Mosquito, I won't even comment on your post. If you think I'm a trolol, OK. For me you are a fanboy, so I guess that makes us even.

Luiggi, a friend from the Brazilian LFS community, made some tests and posted this:

Testando o 0-100 de alguns carros:

Todos com setup ORIGINAL, o mais próximo de um carro de rua, tanto na suspensão quanto no cambio, pressão de pneus e geometria.

XFG (GTi) 120bhp 940kg fez de 0 a 100km/h em 3ª marcha em:

7.9 segundos!

XRT (GTT) 247bhp 1223kg fez de 0 a 100km/h em 2ª marcha em:

5.5 segundos!

Os dados foram aferidos no replay em camera lenta. Para mim, parecem um tanto otimistas.

Com setup de arrancada os tempos não baixam nem 10%

Tirem suas conclusões

Translating:

Testing from 0-100km/h with some cars.

All cars with the original setup, the closest to a street car, both the suspension and gear ratio, tyre pressure and geometry.

XFG (GTi), 120bhp, 940kg went from 0-100km/h, 3rd gear, in 7.9 seconds!

XRT (GTT0, 247bhp, 1223kg went from 0-100km/h, 2nd gear in 5.5 seconds!

The data was taken from the slow motion replay. IMO, they seem a little optimistic.

With the drag setup the times won't be even 10% better.

Take your conclusions.....

___________________________

We are discussing it, and yes we are protecting LFS. Not because we are Scawen's bodyguards, but because so many people in this thread seem to think that with a few minor bugs LFS is crap. They (and this might apply to you) just don't get what LFS is about, how it's being developed, and why people enjoy LFS S2 Alpha as much as they do.

Why protect it? When you over-protect something, the results won't be even as great as if you were looking for the flaws every single time and making a point about the flaws ecery single time. We NEVER said that LFS was crap. If that is what you tought my position was, i'm sorry, but you are DEAD wrong. If I tought LFS was crap, I would have never bought it in the first place.

And yes, I understand completely what LFS is about, and how it is being developed. The thing that annoyes me is that just one small act by the devs would end this. 2 or 3 phrases per week-month telling what they are doing in a sticky thread. That's it.

[ ]'s

Mogar

11th February 2006, 20:00

They (and this might apply to you) just don't get what LFS is about, how it's being developed,

AFAIK, LFS is about being a hardcore simulation, to go as near as possible from the reality on physics as the computer power that we have today allow, without the pressure of big software companies nor companies (be them car manufacturers, sponsors, etc. ) , and without focus on entertaining features nor eye-candy features.

At least this is what I understood reading the main site and the forum when I started with LFS, way back ago. This is a bit different of being a software that the main developer do it as he wants, when he wants, and everyone should not question the way that he releases his progress to the public or question the way that things are being done IF the questions have the intention to make LFS even more near from reality.

Live for Speed is a small development team dedicated to making the best online racing simulator

LFS S2 is a serious racing simulator. No arcade modes, no steering aids - YOU have to do the driving.

A serious simulator obviously requires a very good physics simulation to provide the thrill and fun of real racing. This is done by simulating all aspects that are important to racing

So, this is what I think LFS is about, and this is what made me interested on LFS, and still keeps me interested.

And yes, I understand completely what LFS is about, and how it is being developed. The thing that annoyes me is that just one small act by the devs would end this. 2 or 3 phrases per week-month telling what they are doing in a sticky thread. That's it.

Could even be one report every 3 months, it would be already very nice, and avoid some ppl loosing interest in LFS. Believe me, some don't even come here in the forum to tell that is unsatisfied, just leave it, and LFS may loose some potential S3 buyers. Ok, a small group, but the number of LFS costumers is already quite small. When I say that, is because I'm interested that the devs have the sufficient money to keep the LFS development going, and make LFS stronger.

Blackout

11th February 2006, 20:23

Could even be one report every 3 months, it would be already very nice, and avoid some ppl loosing interest in LFS. Believe me, some don't even come here in the forum to tell that is unsatisfied, just leave it, and LFS may loose some potential S3 buyers. Ok, a small group, but the number of LFS costumers is already quite small.

You mean customers right? Well, I suppose when S3 is released they will see review, preview or receive newsletter from the devs. And think "Oh, I have license for that game, great!" Giving us a report every now and then wouldnt hurt, but is it that important? It takes time from working and that isnt good if you want those patches is it? And Scawen has said that he doesnt want to report anything wich is not maybe released or is just boring testing and coding stuff. I want those bugs fixed too but I have time to wait.

deggis

11th February 2006, 22:21

LFS provides fun racing and will not die even if the devs decided to quit.
How about LFSWorld then? That won't work without weekly maintenance. :)

bbman

11th February 2006, 22:29

...
You completely left alone what I declared the main difference between our point of views (intentionally?)... That there is one party tired of waiting and the other one that has patience and understands, that such crucial and deep changes take time, and the devs are just back to developing... Granted, a report here and then would be nice, but then Scawen stated already, that he wouldn't do such thing unless he really has something to report about... And when he says that, I have no reason not to believe him... In the meantime, I just race the way it is now, despite I myself get fed up with the tires and the aero sometimes... I know, it will be fixed some time (soon? maybe, if I just wish it enough? :D), that gives me enough confidence to just lean back and wait... :shrug:

sgt.flippy

11th February 2006, 23:04

I know people don't like comparing things, but I will. Look at racer, there is only ONE dev. every time a new version comes he tells people what the fixes, adds are, and he might give them info on what he's working on for next versions. Then there is a thread for giving suggestions, the dev. looks there now and then, tells people why it would(n't) work, and that's it. Progress on racer is very slow too, but the people over there don't have this kind of thread! What is the big difference about waiting for this game, and for racer? The community? The money you paid for LFS (racer is free)? As long as everyone knows the devs. are still alive, and the devs. don't say they have quit, everything is fine, right?:Looking_a

keiran

11th February 2006, 23:12

I can't see the devs giving up on this project easily. It takes a lot of guts to quit a job and build something up from scratch. I've personally seen my parents build up two business and they work 9am - 7.00pm 6 days a week and travel all over the place.

Personally I have total faith in the devs and you can clearly see work is still taking place in LFS with Victor working on pubstats. If you have doubts then don't buy the license, in all honesty it's your lose.

keiran

sgt.flippy

11th February 2006, 23:32

I just said the quitting thing as for example, I don't think they would quit what they're doing, but on the other hand, you never know what happens :shrug:
But I will buy the license!

Mogar

11th February 2006, 23:55

I just said the quitting thing as for example, I don't think they would quit what they're doing, but on the other hand, you never know what happens :shrug:
But I will buy the license!

If you take in count that the license is to the extra content and racing with licensed drivers, I think that it's a good deal, since the LFS' engine (physics, graphics, multiplayer, sound, etc) is "free" (i.e. the demo racers have access for free).

If you like the way that LFS behaves in the demo, you will like more when you get the license.

You completely left alone what I declared the main difference between our point of views (intentionally?)...

I said that he shouldn't hear the fanboys, nor the ppl that don't like simulations. The other ppl he can (and should) hear before his decision.

Personally I have total faith in the devs and you can clearly see work is still taking place in LFS with Victor working on pubstats.

Victor is the one that we see working more, since he is who keeps LFSworld and the forum working. Scawen's and Eric's jobs are the most silent now (and Eric's is even more silent). But I think that they decided to not doing progress reports to avoid what happened here in the forum when Victor was misunderstood on a interview and ppl thought that S2 was comming by Xmas 2004. So to avoid ppl complaining about delays or features that didn't come, Scawen decided to be silent about the developing process, what I don't agree, and there is nothing I can do (specially because I've already put my money on this project).

But talking about my relationship with LFS, I stopped with it for a month, and will not try it again until there are physics change or the new brazilian championship season starts. I want something to have fun after my job, and not a thing to get more stressed, that is what LFS became to me.

And if the championship happens before the new patch (which will likely happen, although it has not been decided the tracks or cars, nor the lengh or date to start), I WON'T use locked diffs (except if ppl decide to use the FWD cars, that have a huge dissadvantage if not used) nor the aero bug (except if there will have a race on the oval track with downforce cars, again because there are huge dissadvantages).

Blackout

12th February 2006, 08:46

Mogar I think you are the ultimate fanboy of LFS, better/worst than enyone here, even Tristan. If you can get tressed because the game you must care about it very much :)

I try not to use those bugs for advantage myself too, it just doesnt feel right

Hyperactive

12th February 2006, 17:41

I was going to post this into another thread, but it got closed so I post it here:

Don't you think the devs had posted a progress report if they were even going to? I mean, there have been many threads like this and they have decided not to answer.

If you can't drive because of the weird low speed grip, then learn to drive cos it doesn't bother me often

That's the best argument I have ever seen! It just makes it all...make sense. And saying that brazilians don't understand the development of LFS... Well put! OMG I bet every brazilian thinks that way because 2 or 3 made some "slightly" negative/constructive/understandable posts about the LFS progress. The same thing would be to say: (better not say it :)).

---
I just feel little surprized that we hear nothing. LFS is made by three developers and the biggest difference to the mega corps like EA is the connection to the community. That connection seems to be one way atm.

And if the brazilians really have to pay 1/3 of monthly income to be able to buy LFS, they have got all my support. Consider paying that much money and think would you actually pay it?

This whole scene has gone beyond believable point for me. 1/3 of forum users want to hear something, 1/3 shout "Sssshhhh" and the 1/3 is just fed up with situation.

The good thing is that the forum is still nice place to be. Newbies get still insta-flamed by tristan, a new engine tuning thread comes up every 2 weeks and people still have lots of fun with LFS. :) :)

GP4Flo

12th February 2006, 17:47

Here is your "progress report":
The devs are all alive and working on LFS, and we'll post when there's something interesting to say. As ever, we are working on the things we've said we're working on, and also some other experiments along the way, sometimes giving rise to new things we haven't mentioned before. That's the way LFS is developed, it's the reason LFS is here, and the way it will continue.

And just something about people saying "We have paid for a full version". Please understand, we don't sell versions, we sell licenses. You paid for a S2 license, and you have it! That means you can unlock the S2 content in any S2 release that is available. There is no specified release date for the full version and there never has been.

I'm sorry we can't just bring out releases and improvements at an extremely high speed, but that's just not how software development is. Also, we don't want to keep posting progress reports, about nothing. So little noteworthy things happen in one month... but unfortunately the forum just flares up every month and finally i have to come here and declare that we are still alive, etc...

Again, we are working on LFS and will report when there is anything interesting to say! Thanks! :) http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=73202#post73202

Mogar

12th February 2006, 17:53

I just feel little surprized that we hear nothing. LFS is made by three developers and the biggest difference to the mega corps like EA is the connection to the community. That connection seems to be one way atm.

Great point, and this is what I think that some who try to flame me here in the forum didn't understand about the LFS developing process. And IMO, the 2-way communication with the community is over, for ever, what's a shame. They're starting to want to act like a big company, without being one (and I and a lot of users here DON'T want that this happens).

And looking for the Scawen's reaction to Xcnuse thread, it just makes me think that the Devs really don't want to communicate with the community, just receive bug reports, and that's it. And their argument that it's to avoid loosing their time, well, Scawen just spent his time writting one line and closing a thread. A much effective way to make ppl here shut up whinning would be spend this line with a kind of feedback for us.

[edit]

Finally something about the LFS development. Although it tells nothing that we didn't know before, at least reinforced that the devs
are putting their efforts on LFS project.

And for those that thought that the "shhh... devs are working" philosphy would make them post a kind of progress report faster or make a new patch be released sooner, I think that all this noise that me and some users here did had a kind of positive result.

The more "2-way" the relationship between the devs and the community is, the better to LFS, at least IMO

And if the brazilians really have to pay 1/3 of monthly income to be able to buy LFS, they have got all my support. Consider paying that much money and think would you actually pay it?

This is not a reality for at least those brazilians who post in this forum. We have a monthly income much higher than the minimum wage in our country (or else we wouldn't be able to have broadband, wheel for our pcs, etc), but the impact in our finances is still much bigger than to a standard north american guy. And if you take in count standard or minimum wages, there are ppl here even in worse conditions.

I believe that the discussion about LFS is above price, it's about the pleasure to drive in LFS. I believe that the price discussion is worth for other games.... LFS is not in this category.

Rob76

12th February 2006, 17:56

Anyone who has played any release of S2 so far has agreed to the attached agreement, whether they are happy just to play the Demo or have unlocked S1 or S2 content.

The S1 or S2 licence you have bought just buys you the extra content, and you also, by buying a licence, agreed to the following: http://www.liveforspeed.net/?page=agreement

At no point was anyone promised a timescale of update releases or regular development updates. Those who are so desperate for updates, you've made your point but no matter how much you ask for a fix to the aero or grip problems it's not going to make them come any quicker. The devs have acknowledged the problems (just do a search in the forums) and that they are working on them. I would definitely rather stick with what we've got than have a rushed fix that causes more complaints. It's much better to keep the physics patches infrequent and well tested - the continuity and quality of the public release would be far better for LFS in general. The balance of public alpha/beta testing to private testing is just about right IMO.

The nature of the project is just different to most commercial games, and in many ways you get a better deal because of the lack of commercial pressures. For example I own GTR which was released with more bugs than I've ever seen in LFS alpha and beta releases. It has had a few patches but we can now (with GTR2 being the developers focus) assume it's not getting anymore updates. Once GTR2 is released I'm not expecting my GTR licence to give me anything. In actual fact due to the OTT starfarce protection GTR doesn't actually run on my newest PC. GTR cost $40 and GTR2 (if I choose to buy - I'm usually a sucker) will be approx another $40 - way more than LFS. I fully expect (based on GTR) after 12 months of getting a buggy rushed release of GTR2 patched up to something half as stable as LFS, it'll be long forgotten by the developers (and a large proportion of those who bought it too), where as the LFS development and community will still be going strong (barring disaster).

EDIT: Scawen has (again) let you all know the development continues on the other 'how about a full version' thread. Can those desperate for an update please settle down and either play LFS as it is, or play something else until you get your magic update patch? Stating the 'bugs' again and again isn't going to get them fixed any quicker, just like Scawen explaining the development process and the LFS licence system doesn't seem to get through to some people ;)

GP4Flo

12th February 2006, 17:57

And their argument that it's to avoid loosing their time, well, Scawen just spent his time writting one line and closing a thread. A much effective way to make ppl here shut up whinning would be spend this line with a kind of feedback for us. Hm, let's try to think a bit:
Is this thread still opened for discussions? Yes.
Why did Scawen close the other threads? Because they had exactly the same topics.

So what's your problem? If you want to go on ranting and repeating arguments that have been written a dozens time in this forum, then feel free to do it here!

NotAnIllusion

12th February 2006, 18:00

Besides it wasn't one line xD read the other thread he closed ;)

*cP u beat me to it :p

AndroidXP

12th February 2006, 18:12

Until next month when it all starts again.I really hope it lasts a month. That nonstop moaning about progress reports and repeating the same arguments over and over became boring very quickly.

Mogar

12th February 2006, 18:20

The balance of public alpha/beta testing to private testing is just about right IMO.

Don't forget that we only have this version of LFS on our hands is because someone leaked a private (and buggy) test version (that I could get on e-mule and test, and if I'm not wrong, was the patch K, that run very slow compared with the version that we have today, and had some debug information on the screen), and they hurried to launch a version (that was the first S2 demo) in order to stop the leaked and buggy version to spread all over the internet and scratch the image of the new LFS engine.

If this leaked version were not released, we would probably still using S1 physics and content. So if we have the S2 physics today, it is most probably because someone leaked one version (it can be also a coincidence)

[edit]

And Scawen could also put a sticky thread with the "report" that he did on the other thread, so that it become visible for everyone, and not in the middle of a locked thread that soon will be on 3rd or 4th page and will not be seen by everybody.

axus

12th February 2006, 19:02

No-one, not even you, the all-knowing, always-correct, no-nonsense, no-ass-kissing, Mogar could predict what would have happened if that demo hadn't been leaked. My guess is that we would have a "full" LFS S2 version out but with buggy content. What does the "full" tag matter if the only real full version of S2 will be the one before the first alpha versions of S3?

Falkowski83

12th February 2006, 19:04

And if the brazilians really have to pay 1/3 of monthly income to be able to buy LFS, they have got all my support. Consider paying that much money and think would you actually pay it?

Just to make things clear: we do not have to pay 1/3 of our monthly income to buy LFS. Here LFS costs 1/3 of the brazilian minimum wage.

@Mogar's last post.

Agree there. Scawen should post that progress report on a sticky thread, so everyone could see, and when there are new stuff (even if one line), he can post there.

It makes no sense if someone wants to read the latest info have the need to search 100 posts.

[ ]'s

_rod_

12th February 2006, 19:13

Look sorry to run a way from the topic but i have to:

Pliz stop treating all brazilan as if we behaved the same way, just because 3-4 brazilans dont like the way that thing are being done that doesnt mean that all of us think that way. So pliz dont treat us like that. IM not asking much.

Hyperactive

12th February 2006, 20:41

Just to make things clear: we do not have to pay 1/3 of our monthly income to buy LFS. Here LFS costs 1/3 of the brazilian minimum wage.

I used wrong words and remembered wrong things. Sorry for that :)

As to all some people posting about moaning updates and whatever... All moaning posts I see are the posts about moaning about the moaning. moaning

This thread is a bit joke and it has no real purpose. But the purpose could be to get something little info about LFS. Scawen's new post includes nothing. Not that it was meant to be any kind of progress report at all in any way. And if you get annoyed by this thread . don't read it. If it is so stupid and repulsive the admins will close it.

About that progress report thread. I guess there has never been one and progress reports have usually been posted to liveforspeed.net and not here. After all the thing is that the devs don't want to post progress report so they don't post progress report.

Mogar

12th February 2006, 21:27

After all the thing is that the devs don't want to post progress report so they don't post progress report.

Now all that we can do is to hope that the devs have soon something interesting to report, to give us an idea of what is gonna come and when.

And meantime, I think that I will give my wheel a rest. It's my second MS wheel, and it's already failing due to too much use (yes, I made 2 microsoft ffb wheels get worn due too much driving on LFS). Maybe I'll buy a Momo racing, but I have to make a bit more money to that, or take the two wheels and make one with the good parts (well, I've already removed some parts from the old wheels, apart the buttons that I had to change all of them from the 2nd wheel because they got worn, but there are still some good parts to use).

And hope that a new patch get released, and that my future 3rd wheel lasts until I S3 is lauched.

Vykos69

12th February 2006, 22:14

Now all that we can do is to hope that the devs have soon something interesting to report, to give us an idea of what is gonna come and when.
What maybe, but When prolly not. ;)

Mogar

12th February 2006, 22:48

What maybe, but When prolly not. ;)

well, the last progress report before S2 demo launch we had an estimate date.. :D

I think that I've been having problems to agree with ppl here in this forum lately :D

Speed Soro

12th February 2006, 22:52

I want a progress report like that:

Hellooooooo racers, Scawen here from my new kitchen.

We are working now in physics issues. We are about just 2 week from a perfect algorithm that will give us real car behave, no matter what type of car we drive.

The things are going fast.

Along this work, Eric has made some really good looking cockpits, with new gauges and new wheels, with some bumpmaps that jump to your eyes. No more SIMBIN cockpits to your enjoy.

The damage has been improved and now the glass break, the doors fall down, and so on.

The rev limit has been stablished, and the engine now can explode if you put it too hard.

The brake disks now get heat, and affect the way the car stops.

And we have new sounds! The sounds are still made from the engine core, but now a big range of other sounds sources, such as gearbox, differential and body shell, will be heard.

That's not at all. We have much more for your enjoyment.

The aero bug has been fixed, and the sld now work as it must work.

BTW: the rainny and night races has been implemented, but of course, it would not be possible without a new fantastic dinamic lighting engine.

Of course all of those improvements made the file size grew up, so now you will be obligated to dl something around 800 MB, but we sure that is not a matter to worry about.

See you all soon.

(sorry my bad english)