Making my own wheel

[Bose321]

Hi,

since i kinda got bored of my momo, and reading bad things about the G25, and seen the FREX, so i decided to make myself a wheel, i'm using the old electronics of my momo, and make the cogwheels smaller so i can achieve more degrees of steering. The built is this in a very early stage, pics will maybe follow soon. Im going to make it like the FREX concept, google it if you don't know how it works. any people who have advice or a name for the wheel when it's done? all help will help me :thumb:
Things i need to do:
-attach the engine to the wheel with a ballscrew.
-make a cover
-make up a name

-edit: made some photo's.

Latest update - 22 Feb (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1082115#post1082115)

-Bose

[sgt.flippy]

LOL Cockwheels :D
it's cogwheels

Nice project though!

[Bose321]

lol, sorry for the typo :x

[[RF]-art555]

Well, I hope you understand that your FFB force will be a lot lower with Momo's internals?

Good luck anyway, I'm interested in seeing what you'll be done with :)

[AMB]

Call it the Bosemaster.......

[Bose321]

yes, i do understand about the FFB. Since i have no idea how else i could make it work...

lol, any other names? how about momo 2.0 Limited edition? :tilt:

[Calvinaquino]

Had to bump this, i got some questions about this.
I have a Genius Speed Wheel Force Feedback wich sucks but works relativelly well. I am trying to build my wheel using a circuit board i itend to buy next week, i got everything allright BUT the force feedback. i want to know how to get the force feedback from the game and make it work on my future wheel?
should i use my old wheel's FFB stuff? (or use only the circuit board to run the FFB motor?)

[S14 DRIFT]

Any updates?

Edit : 2300th post.

:woohoo:

[Bose321]

hi, good to hear people are interested :) im still waiting for the ballscrew, made the part that slides backwards and forwards on the ballscrew. so i only have to wait for the ballscrew, and then i could assemble it :)

Had to bump this, i got some questions about this.
I have a Genius Speed Wheel Force Feedback wich sucks but works relativelly well. I am trying to build my wheel using a circuit board i itend to buy next week, i got everything allright BUT the force feedback. i want to know how to get the force feedback from the game and make it work on my future wheel?
should i use my old wheel's FFB stuff? (or use only the circuit board to run the FFB motor?)

Yeah, you could, i don't know if it's any good though, since i don't know how to do this aswell (yet)

[CSU1]

-attach the engine to the wheel with a ballscrew.

you got a pic of the ballscrew?

[Bose321]

hi, good to hear people are interested :) im still waiting for the ballscrew.

Nope, but i think it will arive in 1-2 weeks :)

[CSU1]

is a pitty the motor cog can't be made bigger instead...

[Bose321]

why is that a pitty? and why can't it be made biggeR?

[Calvinaquino]

Can't be made bigger but you can use 2 maybe?

[Bose321]

yes indeed, but why couldn't you make it bigger? you could get out the shaft, i think, havn't tried :shrug:

[Primoz]

It'd be hard, prolly easier to adda nother transfer.

THat's the problem, the low force on low speed when trning on FFB. THe same problem the DFP has. That's why a G25 has 2 motors. That's why i was thinking about using 2 MOMO FFB motors. THe only problem is wiring them togheter to do the same thing at the same time. And the original electronics quite certainly wouldn't take 2 motors in parralel. That and exchange the momo wheel for a real momo or something else. That alone would aid in turning speed A LOT since it would be much lighter. You could still ad 2 or 3 buttons with a telephone spiral cord inbetween the wheel and the base, make the paddles Subaru WRC style fixed to the base, maybe even construct it to be swinged out of the way using one thumbscrew or something, use the second MOMO's buttons to make a H shifter and a pedal for a clutch. You could use the second pedal axis as a handbrake. Anything else needed?

[Calvinaquino]

Wiring them together???
on the same spot you connect the wires for one, you connect for the other, make them work in parallel i guess... if you put them by the side of the wheel axis, one on the left and the other on the right, i think you dont need to do anything else related to it.
EDIT: why wouldn't they work in parallel? theyre getting the same info(same eletric pulses...) or is it because the pulse must have a minimul voltage?

[Bose321]

Well, i don't know for sure, but would it be good if i just buy a strong good motor? could the electronic board handle more voltage? well, i just use the stock motor, and i'll see... :shrug:

[Luke.S]

get two stronger motors and do it like a g25 with twin ffb motors.

[Bose321]

or 1 big motor, like FREX does.

[samforey12345]

is a pitty the motor cog can't be made bigger instead...
Why? Btw Bose, nice project. :)

[Bose321]

Thanks, i hope i get the balscrew soon, and play LFS with a wheel, instead of a mouse. And try how the FFB performs :thumb:

[Takumi_lfs]

Hey, that looks cool.

Goodluck with the project.

[G!NhO]

ah cool project :) lets hope it will work :p

[Bose321]

thanks, credits go to the company where i'm able to make this actualy, could just grab any material i want, and shape it etc, CNC drilling :)

[G!NhO]

thanks, credits go to the company where i'm able to make this actualy, could just grab any material i want, and shape it etc, CNC drilling :)
cool

btw i ordered a G25, i dont wanna mod my wheel. :p

[Bose321]

your choice, if you don't have the right connections to get/make the stuff :shrug:

[G!NhO]

your choice, if you don't have the right connections to get/make the stuff :shrug:
i dont think i have the patience for it :p

[Bose321]

well, it's not really a case of patience(if you order ur parts in time), you just have to come up with an idea, and then just make it. Now it IS a case a patience, because the parts i can build myself are done, and im waiting 2 weeks on this balscrew. :shrug:

[Calvinaquino]

Also you have some kid of freedom since you'rew designing your own wheel, so you decide what kind of iputs to build.

So the ballscrew is screwing your project?:razz:(joke) I had to say it...

[G!NhO]

are you also gonna put a different steering wheel on it?

[Bose321]

Also you have some kid of freedom since you'rew designing your own wheel, so you decide what kind of iputs to build.

So the ballscrew is screwing your project?:razz:(joke) I had to say it...
hehe lol, well, yes, it is 'screwing it up' i'm not that patient :tilt:

are you also gonna put a different steering wheel on it?
Yes, first going to keep the old one, but later one i just need to find a cheap new one (350MM instead of around 250MM).

edit: lol @ these ricer wheels :P >clicky< (http://www.remcoshop.nl/RCAudio.sf/;SessionID=4904B8B000489F7C273E3E94B5BA06BA;Previe wStyle=RCAudio_Groen?ObjectPath=/Shops/RCAudio/Categories/cartuning/sportsturen&PageSize=50&ChangeAction=SetStyle&PreviewStyle=RCAudio_Groen)

edit#2: i think i go for this : >click me< (http://www.biesheuvel-autosport.nl/shop/detail/2090)

that's a nice flat, kinda cheap wheel, imo.

[Jordan2007]

Bose, just buy or try a G25!!

They are Legendary ;)

[Bose321]

lol, i did, i just don't like the plastic-ness :shrug: this is going to be waaay better :smileypul

[G!NhO]

lol, i did, i just don't like the plastic-ness :shrug: this is going to be waaay better :smileypul
its not plastic

[Bose321]

then what is it? i mean, the outside,cogwheels etc etc.

[G!NhO]

then what is it? i mean, the outside,cogwheels etc etc.
yeah there is a bit of platic but your momo has more :p

[Töki (HUN)]

yeah there is a bit of platic but your momo has more :p

He won't have any as he finishes it ;) Good Luck!:thumbsup:

[kiss me]

you could use a windscreenwiper motor for ffb..
it has quit alot of power... :)

[G!NhO]

or one from a washingmachine :D

of dit ^^ http://www.marktplaats.nl/index.php?url=http://kopen.marktplaats.nl/search.php%3Fq%3Delektromotor%252010%2520pk%26g%3D 239%26xref%3D1%26redirect%3D1350

[Bose321]

He won't have any as he finishes it ;) Good Luck!:thumbsup:

Thanks.

you could use a windscreenwiper motor for ffb..
it has quit alot of power... :)

Really? :scratchch

or one from a washingmachine :D

of dit ^^ http://www.marktplaats.nl/index.php?url=http://kopen.marktplaats.nl/search.php%3Fq%3Delektromotor%252010%2520pk%26g%3D 239%26xref%3D1%26redirect%3D1350

i think my desk wont support the weight :razz:

[G!NhO]

i think my desk wont support the weight :razz:
i think your arms can't handle the strength :p

[Bose321]

Little bump. Just got my balscrew :D all i have to do now is, order a cogwheel, and some bearings. then i can put it together, so i think i can play next week :D

Maybe i'll make some pics of the balscrew, i'll see.

-bose

[skolekaj]

maybe "THE Gbose"

[Bose321]

Hehe :) Not really 'unique' or original :shrug:

[skolekaj]

ok:)

[G!NhO]

are you also gonna make a shifter and clutch pedal?

[Bose321]

Don't know, maybe, i'll see :)

[G!NhO]

i just realised after i got my G25 that a H-shifter and clutch are great with LFS. :)

even my mom and dad like it now :D

[S14 DRIFT]

Is there any more news on this project? Would like to know how it turns out :)

[sgt.flippy]

Little bump. Just got my balscrew :D all i have to do now is, order a cogwheel, and some bearings. then i can put it together, so i think i can play next week :D

Maybe i'll make some pics of the balscrew, i'll see.

-bose

Is there any more news on this project? Would like to know how it turns out :)
Nope, we've been without updates all evening!

[S14 DRIFT]

Noo, I mean like pictures and stuff.

:(

[Bose321]

lol, i put it together really fast, so it isn't put together like it should, but it shows a bit how it will look like.

[S14 DRIFT]

Wow o_o - Wondering what it'll look like when it's finished :D

Nice RC car btw :razz:

[Bose321]

Thanks :thumb: the RC car is one of my Serpents :)

[G!NhO]

how many degrees will the wheel turn? and you already know what motor you gonna put in it? :)

[Bose321]

well, if my maths are correct, it will have 900 degrees, and adjustable. or 720, not sure yet. and im keeping the current motor atm.

[Heiko1]

Isnt it a bit long??
what u have done with the rc exhaust? was a wall in the way? ^^ i got some rc cars too with lill engine :)
And ma brother got a HPI Baya Buggy 1:5 :)

Good luck with ur Wheel :)

[Bose321]

it isn't long about 40cm.


What do you mean with with wall?

[G!NhO]

Update!?!?!?

[Bose321]

oh, hai. I ordered the bearings yesterday. This wensday when im at the company i might make the holes bigger for the bearings if i have time. When that's done, and i have the last part, it's time to drive :) I might order a new cogwheel though, for more rotation, not sure yet...


-Bose

[samforey12345]

If you do get a bigger cogwheel, though. Won't the ffb be messed up, as it is wired/configured to whatever rotation your other wheel had?

[Bose321]

good question, but no, the software thinks it's sending max of 90degrees, but the wheel is actualy receiving more, so i don't think it will go wierd etc.
And if this al works, i might rebuild it, place the motor somewhere else, for even better results. but that is a bit private at the moment.

[samforey12345]

You will get weaker FFB though :razz:.

[Bose321]

Weaker then what? And why?

[CSU1]

And if this al works, i might rebuild it, place the motor somewhere else, for even better results. but that is a bit private at the moment.

...I see , it's all disturbingly clear to me now that you plan to attach ffb to your balls!:x

Private:razz:

j/k, how much $$$ thus far?

[G!NhO]

Weaker then what? And why?
more rotation of the wheel... the FFB will be weaker.

[Bose321]

...I see , it's all disturbingly clear to me now that you plan to attach ffb to your balls!:x

Private:razz:

j/k, how much $$$ thus far?

well, the ballscrew was 180 euro, and the bearings are 10 euro :shrug:

more rotation of the wheel... the FFB will be weaker.

Why?

[G!NhO]

well, the ballscrew was 180 euro, and the bearings are 10 euro :shrug:



Why?
hoe meer een wiel moet draaien hoe langzamer hij word volgens mij :shrug:

[Bose321]

hoe meer een wiel moet draaien hoe langzamer hij word volgens mij :shrug:

Nope, it won't make a difference :)

[samforey12345]

I don't know how he explained it, but if you have a bigger cogwheel on your motor, it will allow for more rotation, but it will weaken the ffb. Go on your push bike and put your pedal-cog on highest (so its at its biggest) and try riding, you should find it's harder than if you have it at the smallest cog. (Unless you are uberl33tstrong) :razz:.

[Bose321]

yeah, true. but i mean, i had my ffb strenght at only 80% or something like that, so i could always turn it up :shrug:

[[RF]-art555]

yeah, true. but i mean, i had my ffb strenght at only 80% or something like that, so i could always turn it up :shrug:

80% is already a quite high value, the motor will cary excessive loads and will have much higher chances to burn.
Just a simple math, you can increase the strength 20% more while still being in "safe limits", but the rotation increases 300% (if it will be 720*) so is the torque, I don't think overcoming this will be as easy as just increase the strengh of FFB...

[Bose321]

i do not care. I'm going to write my own script and buy a new motor anyways i think.

[Calvinaquino]

I think he means, as the FFB motor produces torque, lets say, x.
with a cogwheel size of 1.
so force equals x/1
if you put a bigger cogwheel (lets say 2)
so now the force will be x/2. !!!!
correct me if im wrong in any of this, and, these numbers don't represent the real thingy.

had any big updates??

[Bose321]

yes, im am testing it atm, pictures soon. it's almost done

[Bose321]

Well, tested it yesterday. And i have sad news, if i can't find a new engine or a totaly new FFB system, this project isn't going to continue...
So if someone could help me, all the help is welcome. The engine is totaly dead :(

http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01622zi4.jpg

[Bose321]

Sorry for the triple post, but does somewhere here, or do you know someone that knows a bit about FFB systems?

im thinking of buying a controller (http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/ForceFeedbackController.html) and a AC Servo. but i heard it is VERY difficult, and the AC servos are very expensive. Does anyone have some info to share or links, whatever helps me.

Regards,

-Bose

[Calvinaquino]

Can you be specific about whats happening? weak ffb? (although seeing the pictures i see that i may be strong)
But im guessing the FFB doesnt know the wheel's direction maybe?
By the way, nice work =D. Don't give up! you're almost there.

[Bose321]

Can you be specific about whats happening? weak ffb? (although seeing the pictures i see that i may be strong)
But im guessing the FFB doesnt know the wheel's direction maybe?
By the way, nice work =D. Don't give up! you're almost there.

Thanks. with weak FFB i mean: you almost feel no difference between: FFB on - FFB off. And i discovered that i misscalculated the degrees of steering. i meant 2x turning. but now it turns 2x from center, so that's 2x too much.
If i find a solution, i will continue it.

[towz-T]

Thanks. with weak FFB i mean: you almost feel no difference between: FFB on - FFB off. And i discovered that i misscalculated the degrees of steering. i meant 2x turning. but now it turns 2x from center, so that's 2x too much.
If i find a solution, i will continue it.

i haven't read the full post, but have you tried applied direct power to the motor? and se what it does,
if that works out fine, try to put FFB on in a game, and check the voltages running to the motor.

just quick thinking

[G!NhO]

so now its turning 1440 degrees?

[Tomba(FIN)]

Looks good, but remember, wheel is not in 90degree position. its more like / than | ;) it's also more comfortable to drive

[Calvinaquino]

I say one of the reasons is the wheel turning 2x more. another reason is the AC. If you can, check the box of the Momo to see what kind of voltage it works on, and apply it. i don't remember wellm but using an AC with a different settingm will not burn the device and will increase the strengh, to a limit.

[Bose321]

I say one of the reasons is the wheel turning 2x more. another reason is the AC. If you can, check the box of the Momo to see what kind of voltage it works on, and apply it. i don't remember wellm but using an AC with a different settingm will not burn the device and will increase the strengh, to a limit.

i don't have the box anymore, but the most run on 5V

Looks good, but remember, wheel is not in 90degree position. its more like / than | ;) it's also more comfortable to drive
What do you mean?

so now its turning 1440 degrees?
yes

i haven't read the full post, but have you tried applied direct power to the motor? and se what it does,
if that works out fine, try to put FFB on in a game, and check the voltages running to the motor.

just quick thinking

How can i do that?

[ColeusRattus]

What do you mean?
He means that the wheel axle shouldn't be paralell to the ground, but angled slightly, so the wheel, when viewed from the side, isn't perfectly veritcal.

[Bose321]

yeah i know, going to change that later on. but i first need to get it working 100%

[S14 DRIFT]

Can you make a video of this? This is interesting :)

[G!NhO]

yeah show us a video of the FFB in action, maybe then we can help you :)

[Bose321]

Can you make a video of this? This is interesting :)
Don't really have something to make a video :shrug:

yeah show us a video of the FFB in action, maybe then we can help you :)

What FFB? :razz:

[G!NhO]

What FFB? :razz:
i dont know :tilt:

[S14 DRIFT]

FFB (http://www.blindness.org)

:tilt:

Edit : Use your Sumsing 3000 Xi Multitask phone to make high quality movies to show to your freinds and family. :D

[Bose321]

FFB (http://www.blindness.org)

:tilt:

Edit : Use your Sumsing 3000 Xi Multitask phone to make high quality movies to show to your freinds and family. :D

lol, i don't have one of those :razz:

[G!NhO]

Edit : Use your Sumsing 3000 Xi Multitask phone to make high quality movies to show to your freinds and family. :D
haha that video is fun

[Bose321]

i'll see if my digital camera can take a video. but there isn't alot to see tbh, just a good looking and working wheel with poor FFB :D

[G!NhO]

i'll see if my digital camera can take a video. but there isn't alot to see tbh, just a good looking and working wheel with poor FFB :D
just do it.

show us your awesome frankenstein wheel alive! :drevil:............................lol

[Bose321]

just do it.

show us your awesome frankenstein wheel alive! :drevil:............................lol

lol, not today. First have to find some alive batteries, and then connect the wheel to my pc again, and set it up. :schwitz:

[Takumi_lfs]

Hey, if your done with your own wheel. Could you make another one for me? :shy:

[Bose321]

sure, if i get the FFB sorted, and you pay me, we have a deal.

[Takumi_lfs]

sure, if i get the FFB sorted, and you pay me, we have a deal.

Really? How much?

[Bose321]

Well, slightly more then it will cost me. i think slightly under 250 euro.

[Takumi_lfs]

I'd rather buy a G25 instead of that skeleton momo :shrug:

[Calvinaquino]

Why not add one more FFB motor? (from the momo, maybe buy broken wheels to use their FFB's or see if you can find on junkyards.... lol)
maybe add 2 or 3... why not 4 ? HELL ADD OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!

I mean it. try to add one more

[G!NhO]

I'd rather buy a G25 instead of that skeleton momo :shrug:
yes me too...............and i did :p

[Bose321]

I'd rather buy a G25 instead of that skeleton momo :shrug:

Your choice, although this is way better when the FFB is working. if you like that plastic junk, go ahead.

Why not add one more FFB motor? (from the momo, maybe buy broken wheels to use their FFB's or see if you can find on junkyards.... lol)
maybe add 2 or 3... why not 4 ? HELL ADD OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!

I mean it. try to add one more

Well, i don't know how to do that yet, and i need to find one of those engines.

yes me too...............and i did :p

good for you. :x

[Minimaxman]

This looks like a really interesting project, looking foward to seeing it progress.

What size motor are you using at the moment? 540? If you go up to 600 size, there are some very torquey ones available for not much money. Look at 'Graupner Speed 600' motors (for R/C cars / trucks / boats) - these have a shed load of torque and cost me less than £10 each. Not sure what power you're feeding to yours, but the Graupner one has two versions - 9.6V or 7.2V.

[Bose321]

Hi, i don't think a normall motor would do it, because they move shocky (try to move the shaft when the power is off). otherwise i put a fat brushless of my boat in it :D And i think that a bigger engine will burn the FFB controler :shrug:

[G!NhO]

you can always try to put a 600 motor in :shrug:

je kunt het altijd proberen > nee heb je, ja kun je krijgen :p

[Bose321]

you can always try to put a 600 motor in :shrug:

je kunt het altijd proberen > nee heb je, ja kun je krijgen :p

i already have tried, i have loads of motors, but they all are shocky, FFB motors arn't like the usual ones.

[Minimaxman]

Shocky...?

[G!NhO]

Shocky...?
they dont turn smooth, they go in steps.

[Bose321]

Shocky...?

they dont turn smooth, they go in steps.

indeed, thank you for explaining :shy:

[G!NhO]

indeed, thank you for explaining :shy:
no problemo, i learnt it from you :p

[Bose321]

i'm going to order to interals of an kinda new MOMO for like 15 euro :) i hope that will work :shrug:

[[RF]-art555]

i'm going to order to interals of an kinda new MOMO for like 15 euro :) i hope that will work :shrug:

I don't see how will it work tbh... The new momo will have the same motor and it will be just as week as your current one. So you have two ways of solving your current problem as I see it:

1) Use several identical motors (MOMO's in your case I guess) connected paralelly to compensate lack of torque.

2) Start from Scratch using G25 as a base. Should be easier, as you won't have mess with finding new motor or any other things.
It's expensive, but your choise wasn't for the sake of cheaper price from the very begining

[Bose321]

-art555;982266']I don't see how will it work tbh... The new momo will have the same motor and it will be just as week as your current one. So you have two ways of solving your current problem as I see it:

1) Use several identical motors (MOMO's in your case I guess) connected paralelly to compensate lack of torque.

2) Start from Scratch using G25 as a base. Should be easier, as you won't have mess with finding new motor or any other things.
It's expensive, but your choise wasn't for the sake of cheaper price from the very begining

Well, the current engine is dead, so maybe the new one will help. And it was made to be kinda cheap actualy.

[[RF]-art555]

Well, the current engine is dead, so maybe the new one will help.
The old one died because of ..... too much torque? Then new one will die in the same way. If I were you, I'd sit for some time and think through all the construction a few times, calculated everything and only then started working.

Anyway, good luck...

[samforey12345]

If all else fails then you might have to install another set of cogs so it will reduce the degrees and help the power of the ffb... Would take some designing though lol. :tilt:

[Bose321]

-art555;982407']The old one died because of ..... too much torque? Then new one will die in the same way. If I were you, I'd sit for some time and think through all the construction a few times, calculated everything and only then started working.

Anyway, good luck...

It died because the original MOMO was steering way too hard. And of the age.

If all else fails then you might have to install another set of cogs so it will reduce the degrees and help the power of the ffb... Would take some designing though lol. :tilt:

I have ordered other cogs, now i will have a fraction over 720 degrees. This means i have to remake almost the whole wheel though...

[samforey12345]

Gah, sucks.. But it should be cool! Good luck.

[Bose321]

Gah, sucks.. But it should be cool! Good luck.

Thanks. :thumb:

[S14 DRIFT]

Looks.. wierd? Hope it like.. doesn't brake and stuff. :)

[Bose321]

Looks.. wierd? Hope it like.. doesn't brake and stuff. :)

it won't, high quality. btw, i got my new gears, never expected they are this huge... holy cow, they are like HUGE! anyways, this wensday im going to remake some parts of the wheel to make it all fit. i hope i have more FFB after this, otherwise im going to stop working on it.

[Takumi_lfs]

Looks.. wierd? Hope it like.. doesn't brake and stuff. :)

What do you expect from a Skeleton MOMO anyway? :tilt:

[Bose321]

What do you expect from a Skeleton MOMO anyway? :tilt:

This has nothing to do with a MOMO :really: i don't see you guys do any better. And tbh, i dont give a sh*t about how it looks.

[jameso77]

ive been watching this and the wheel is looking awesome.. any news on the new cogs and how its coming along?

James

[Bose321]

ive been watching this and the wheel is looking awesome.. any news on the new cogs and how its coming along?

James

Hey, i got the new cogs, but i still havnt found any time to make the new blocks... i only have 3 days in the week time for it, and i have to do alot there aswell... I'm actualy considering to stop this little project, because i think it will cost too much money and effort to make it work. I doubt if the FFB is proper after the last step I need to do.

[PioneerLv]

''It will coast too much money.'' How much does it is?

[Bose321]

''It will coast too much money.'' How much does it is?
Hi, thanks for the interest. I just ordered New stuff from a mate of an other forum. It will arive tuesday (or later). The costs are something like 180 euro for the ballscrew. and 15 euro for the new parts. The other parts are home made, so no costs. New cogwheels are 20 euro. I also rebuilt the wheel, of a new material. pics soon. so the costs are 215 euro or something like that.

[G!NhO]

215 euro is quite expensive :x

id rather buy a G25 for the same amount of money and then you get a clutch pedal and shifter, AND is saves alot of work :shrug:

but still its a nice project :thumb:

[Bose321]

215 euro is quite expensive :x

id rather buy a G25 for the same amount of money and then you get a clutch pedal and shifter, AND is saves alot of work :shrug:

but still its a nice project :thumb:

Yeah, more people would agree on that. I agree it looked better on paper. But maybe this will work, and it could be alot of fun. Fingers crossed. If not, i'm going to throw it through my window.

[G!NhO]

Yeah, more people would agree on that. I agree it looked better on paper. But maybe this will work, and it could be alot of fun. Fingers crossed. If not, i'm going to throw it through my window.

lol, and how about the motors? you already know which ones to take, or do you already have em?

[Bose321]

lol, and how about the motors? you already know which ones to take, or do you already have em?
Ordered original (almost new) MOMO ones. I don't think the current controler can handle a new motor.

[PioneerLv]

It is so nice to see people who like to do something with his hands. Sure, it needs to invest some money, but you made it and you trust it.

Waiting for news and good luck!

[polepositiondriver]

Great to see your giving it a go! I followed it from the first page and i'm quite eager to see how it turns out.

Theres a lot of things you'll learn from this that will surpass any costs you might spend, for example you know you built it yourself.

Its quite easy to go out and buy it all done, but to know how it was built and that it was built by yourself is a great achievement

Don't be discouraged, money comes and goes but new life experiences and knowledge will stay with ya for life!

I say Go for it! Not long to go

[G!NhO]

btw when its finished i'd like to see it in action ;)

[Bose321]

It is so nice to see people who like to do something with his hands. Sure, it needs to invest some money, but you made it and you trust it.

Waiting for news and good luck!
Thanks. hope it turns out good!

Great to see your giving it a go! I followed it from the first page and i'm quite eager to see how it turns out.

Theres a lot of things you'll learn from this that will surpass any costs you might spend, for example you know you built it yourself.

Its quite easy to go out and buy it all done, but to know how it was built and that it was built by yourself is a great achievement

Don't be discouraged, money comes and goes but new life experiences and knowledge will stay with ya for life!

I say Go for it! Not long to go
I totaly agree on you. I will come with news soon :thumb:

btw when its finished i'd like to see it in action

Ill find a way to film it.

[mcman]

Sorry for the triple post, but does somewhere here, or do you know someone that knows a bit about FFB systems?

im thinking of buying a controller (http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/ForceFeedbackController.html) and a AC Servo. but i heard it is VERY difficult, and the AC servos are very expensive. Does anyone have some info to share or links, whatever helps me.

Regards,

-Bose
Hi Bose, I can tell you a bit about the MOMO Racing FFB transmission which might make your lack of power at the wheel clearer. MOMO Racing uses a 39:1 overall gear reduction. The motor produces approximatly 42 mNm of torque. If you multiply 39 times 42 you get 1638 mNm at the SHAFT. But, at the wheel rim you only get about 12.8 (wheel dia is about 256 mm). Your set up appears to use the first reduction gear from MOMO Racing attaching it directly to the screw shaft to which the wheel is attached. The motor pinion has 20 teeth, the first reduction gear has 120 teeth yielding a 6:1 reduction. This means that at your SHAFT you are getting only 6X42 mNm=252, and therefore at the wheel rim you are seeing less than 2 mNm. You can see why a double reduction gear set is required: the second reduction pinion on the double gear has 20 teeth, the main gear has 130 teeth yielding a 6.5:1 reduction, if you multiply 6.5X6=39. It is this power of mutiplucation that produces the torque that is needed from a cost effective motor/power supply.

Another aspect of FFB response is inertia in the system. Everything that has mass has inertia. Interia is what makes someting that is not moving hard to get moving, and something that is moving hard to stop. Increased inertia in the FFB system absorbs the force producing an overall smaller "feel" at the wheel. By adding large metal parts the inertia of the system increases decreasing the available force. Another serious aspect of this added inertia is tooth strength. The teeth in MOMO Force's transmission are desgned to accept a given bending stress without failing. The highest stress happens at the mechanical "stops". Inertia makes the system (wheel, shaft, gears, motor rotor) want to keep rotating. The stop makes the whole thing come to a very quick stop. Force equals Mass X Acceleration (F=Ma). In this case very large forces are created because the (de) acceleration is very high. And, due to the nature of FFB gear drives, the same teeth see this force over and over again until that fail due to fatigue of the plastic. Your system has alot more rotating mass which will destroy the plastic teeth of the original MOMO Racing first reduction gear.

Another aspect of FFB transmission design/function is refered to as "frequency response". This is the ability of the transmission to reproduce the frequency (back and forth forces) at the wheel rim. Gear based transmission have small gaps between the teeth of the gears called backlash. This backlash limits the highest frequency that can be felt at the wheel. Think of it this way: the motor turns back and forth at a given frequency. As it does it must "take up" the space between the teeth before any force can be transfered to the next gear tooth. IF it is changing direction so quickly that it is turning around BEFORE the gap is removed, then no force is transfered to the next tooth and the maximum frequency response has be reached. Control of the system backlash is of very high importance in FFB transmission design.

As you stated, these dc motors have a "shocky" feel unpowered. This is called "cogging" force and is a function of the motor's design. Logitech FFB motors are custom designed to minimize the cogging effect as much as possible. But, cogging and motor torque are directly related: less cogging means less torque. A higher transmission reduction ratio minimizes the cogging feel: there is less feel at the wheel's rim as small wheel rotation angles result in large motor rotation involving many cogging steps. BTW: G25 uses a 16:1 reduction which caused the need for very special, very low cogging, custom motors to minimize the cogging feel at the wheel.

Finally, I have question about your design: what purpose does the "screw shaft" and associated "square mass" serve? It appears that the original MOMO Racing wheel is attached directly to the shaft. If so, then the screw and added system mass do nothing for you that a straight shaft would do, while adding cost and interia to the system.

Hope this helps. As you can see, a great deal of thought and engineering go into making FFB wheels that work well and are affordable.

Good luck with your project!

[Bose321]

Thanks for the post. The ballscrew is there to stop the unlimited movement of the wheel. You seem like a smart person, what should i do to improve it? What do you mean by 'square mass' ?

[CSU1]

what should i do to improve it? What do you mean by 'square mass' ?

Just throw more money at it and the problem should go away:D

[Bose321]

Just throw more money at it and the problem should go away:D
Throw money in what parts?

[mcman]

Thanks for the post. The ballscrew is there to stop the unlimited movement of the wheel. You seem like a smart person, what should i do to improve it? What do you mean by 'square mass' ?

Hi Bose, I think I understand now: the "square mass" I refered to is your "moving stop". It moves up and down the ballscrew and stops at the ends. Is this correct?

If so, as I mentioned, your "stop" must be accelerated and deaccelerated at what ever frequency that the FFB system is sending the wheel. This "absorbs" some of the forces and degrades your experience.

As far as what you can do. If you use the same motor I would increase the gear reduction to near stock or higher using stronger gears or perhaps a belt drive. If you use a belt drive tension on the belts will be critical to the feel and losses in the system. Please note that the electronics are design with power constraints based on the stock motor/power supply and can be burned out with a higher amperrage motor. There is also "over current/back EMF" protection on the board which can affect your driving experience if the configuration is not correct.

Next, I would make the "stop" weigh less (lower the mass).

I need to find out a few things about the optical encoder on MOMO Racing which will help you determine what range you can obtain, as MOMO Racing, as you know, is a less than one full turn device (240 deg's I think) as so it does not need to calculate what turn it is on. This is very different from DFP/DFGT/G25 which are multi turn devices which BTW would be more straight forward for you to modify.

Please tell me if my assumptions about the "stop" are correct and let me think about this and get back to you later.

[Bose321]

Hi Bose, I think I understand now: the "square mass" I refered to is your "moving stop". It moves up and down the ballscrew and stops at the ends. Is this correct?

If so, as I mentioned, your "stop" must be accelerated and deaccelerated at what ever frequency that the FFB system is sending the wheel. This "absorbs" some of the forces and degrades your experience.

As far as what you can do. If you use the same motor I would increase the gear reduction to near stock or higher using stronger gears or perhaps a belt drive. If you use a belt drive tension on the belts will be critical to the feel and losses in the system. Please note that the electronics are design with power constraints based on the stock motor/power supply and can be burned out with a higher amperrage motor. There is also "over current/back EMF" protection on the board which can affect your driving experience if the configuration is not correct.

Next, I would make the "stop" weigh less (lower the mass).

I need to find out a few things about the optical encoder on MOMO Racing which will help you determine what range you can obtain, as MOMO Racing, as you know, is a less than one full turn device (240 deg's I think) as so it does not need to calculate what turn it is on. This is very different from DFP/DFGT/G25 which are multi turn devices which BTW would be more straight forward for you to modify.

Please tell me if my assumptions about the "stop" are correct and let me think about this and get back to you later.

Yes, you are right about the stop. Why should the stop weigh less? would it improve the FFB? Maybe you have something like MSN so we could chat easier.

[mcman]

Yes, you are right about the stop. Why should the stop weigh less? would it improve the FFB? Maybe you have something like MSN so we could chat easier.

Hi Bose, at various frequencys, say, running over a bump strip, the quicky changing forces applied to the system will be better with a lighter stop.

Anyway, I don't use MSN so just let me get some more information and get back to you tomorrow.

[Bose321]

Hi Bose, at various frequencys, say, running over a bump strip, the quicky changing forces applied to the system will be better with a lighter stop.

Anyway, I don't use MSN so just let me get some more information and get back to you tomorrow.
Alright. Thanks for the help already!

[mcman]

Alright. Thanks for the help already!

Hi Bose, I have done a little looking into MOMO Racing and have some insights for you to consider as you go forward with your project:

First, MOMO Racing uses a "geared down" optical encoding system (same unit is used in Driving Force Pro). Basically, the system uses thin slots in a rotating disk to create "counts" and to determine direction. These "counts" provide the firmward with the information it needs to know where it is between the mechanical stops. In the case of MOMO Racing, the wheel rotates less than one full revolution, so, upon startup, the wheel rotates one way until it hits a mechanical stop. The firmware resets the counter to zero, then rotates the wheel the other direction until it hits the other stop. It then divides this number (full range) by two and rotates the other direction until it reaches this new number which centers the wheel. After this calibration, when the wheel is turned the firmware keeps track of these numbers and always knows where center is. Now, the processor that stores these numbers is designed to keep numbers of only a maximum expected size. If the encoding system feeds more counts above this number then it looses counts/stops working. I do not know what this number is, but I am fairly sure that if you feed 900 degrees worth of counts to the device it will not keep track.

So, this is what this means to your project: For it to function you will need to further gear down the optical encoder to create roughly the same number of counts over the larger wheel rotation angle. MOMO Racing is a 240 degree rotational device, so to make it a 900 degree device you would need to reduce the rotation of the optical encoder disk by 3.75 times. NOTE: this greatly reduces the accuracy of the steering wheel as a one degree rotation of the stock wheel produces about 10 counts, divide that by 3.75 yields only 2.8 counts. To accomplish this gear down would require a new optical encoder frame with a double gear between the stock 14 tooth pinion and the optical disk's 35 tooth pinion. You will have to calculate the ratio based on the two gears you assemble to make this double gear.

As you can see, this is not an easy or a good way to make a 900 degree wheel out of a 240 degree wheel. So, I have a few suggustions:

First, you could make the changes to the FFB gearing I reconmmended (39:1) then, move your stops in until they produce 240 degrees. Once the system is working you could then move the stops out a little at a time to see where the "saturation" point of the processor is. This would probabily be less than one full rotation.

Or, your cound leave your current FFB gearing, which is 6:1, yielding a per degree of wheel rotation counts of 1.6, then move your stops to provide the total expected counts which would be a 1560 degrees of rotation! But, you would have no/very weak FFB.

Or, you could change the FFB gearing to yield a total number of counts equal to a 900 degree device which is a ratio of 10.4:1. This would give you some level of FFB while allowing the device to boot up. Your accracy would be less, but might still be OK. Note: if you keep your stock MOMO Racing motor pinion (20 teeth) and make a single reduction device the main gear would need to have 208 teeth. Of course, you could reduce the number of teeth on the pinion allowing a smaller main gear to be used.

Or, you could buy a DFP, use all of it's internals stock, and get true 900 degrees as it's processor is looking for a bigger number based on 2.5 turns of the wheel. One issue with this approach is the 200 degree mechanical stop in DFP. The firmware expects to "see" and operate this sliding stop during start up. Fooling the firmware could be tricky.

Or, you could buy a DFGT, use all of it's internals, get true high accuracy FFB without the problems associated with the sliding 200 degree stop as DFGT does not have this stop. But, DFGT uses a direct drive/anti backlash optical encoder (same module as G25) which you would have to deal with. You could attach your ballscrew directly to the FFB transmission main shaft (where the DFGT wheel is currently mounted) to get around this issue. Still, DFGT is a PS3 device, with all of the associated buttons. You would have to rewire the MOMO wheel with the expected wires routing the MOMO paddle shifters to the DFGT paddle shifter buttons and the other six buttons as required for your game play on a PC. This is doable, just keep the DFGT wheel panel off to the side and run wires up to the MOMO wheel.

Finally, you could buy a G25, get smooth/strong FFB, solid construction, and a clutch/shifter. I use a G25 in LFS and GTPrologue mounted on a Playseat that I customized to raise the shifter and move the pedals over to the right and am very happy with it.

Anyway, I will keep watching to see what to decide. Good Luck!

[Bose321]

Hi, i already ordered new parts(original momo motor plus all the other internals). I don't know how easy it is to do all the things you said, and what it will cost, but it sounds prety good. I'll have to discuss it with my brother. He is a bit better in all this :thumb:

[yoyoML]

Now, the processor that stores these numbers is designed to keep numbers of only a maximum expected size. If the encoding system feeds more counts above this number then it looses counts/stops working. I do not know what this number is, but I am fairly sure that if you feed 900 degrees worth of counts to the device it will not keep track.


I've played with this sensor before. If you rotate past 120 degrees in one direction, the reading stops increasing. But as soon as you unwind it back, the reading starts decreasing as if from 120 degrees. So if you rotate 150 degrees in one direction, the new center will be moved to 30 degrees, and the opposite end will be -90 degrees.

I believe this is more a driver design, though, instead of hard/firmware limit. But gearing down the optical disk should be necessary if you don't touch other things.

[Bose321]

Hi all!
Last week the new motor + circuit board arrived. I also addapted the gears to 720 degrees. The Force Feedback is much better now! But still not really massive. And I have the strength maxed out, so. I have no new pics/vids yet. I am considering to add a seconds motor. But I don't know how to attach that yet. And I have no second Adapter, so I don't know if that will work. Next step is to make a cover for it, and to make 'stops' to make it stop from turning more then 720 degrees. And I have to solder the wires to the circuit board again. I'm still testing, and everything looks good. Motor gets quite hot though. I'd like to hear some responses from others.

Regards,

Gerben Bol

[Tim_J_23]

Pretty damn impressive build!
But I gotta ask, where have you read about that the G25 is a bad wheel?
Those people must have been retarded or something imo ...
The G25 is GREAT (have one myself) and the best wheel on the market!

[Bose321]

Pretty damn impressive build!
But I gotta ask, where have you read about that the G25 is a bad wheel?
Those people must have been retarded or something imo ...
The G25 is GREAT (have one myself) and the best wheel on the market!
My brother had one actualy. And I just do not find it that great. It just looks like my momo, but with two motors, 900 degrees, and a leather wheel. Such wheels will not last that long, and the amount of plastic is another thing I don't like. I don't say the G25 is rubbish, it's just a personal opinion, and I do not want a flamewar here.

[Tim_J_23]

Oh, ok.
I, myself upgraded from a Thrustmaster FFB so it's a huge step.
That's why I love the G25 so much :)

[Bose321]

Major bump: mcman, have you got any advice for me?

I will make pics soon, gotta find my camera :schwitz:

[chbright]

i know i am new but i remember seeing your post over at rsc about this setup. my suggestion would be to figure out the the encoder counts next. if its like the msff, and from what i have read here it is, there is a disk on the back of the motor with slots, figure out how many are there. then multiply that number by the original gear ratio. that gives you counts per 360 of the wheel (in only 1 direction). idk but how many degrees can the original wheel turn. whatever it is multiply the counts per 360 degrees of the wheel by the rotation from the center postion till it locks divided by 360 thats likely the max counts the wheel will accept in 1 direction before it dismisses more as errors and fouls up the center. this number is critical. it will help determine a few things.

random example: original gear ration is 39:1, 100 slots on the encoder, and 180 degrees rotation from the center postion to full right lock. that 3900counts per 360 degrees rotation. so that gives you 1850 counts per direction the wheel expects from center to lock (-1850 the other way for 3900 total counts lock to lock). this is a big number to know imo.

if you wanted a super fast response a direct drive is what you want. unfortunately thats unlikely without some heavy $$$$$ parts (a servo amp and a big dc servo might do it). but what you could do is try to get an encoder on the steering shaft. that way the responses it normally reads are 39:1 motor rotations to steering shaft. if you make that 1-1, it will try to drive the motor faster posibly. i bet some of the imputs to the wheel are acceleration and speed based, so if you can decrease the encoder to steering shaft ratio, it should increase the speed of the motor and therefor steering shaft to compensate (or tryin to act like normal).

so continuing with the previous example we need 1850 counts from center to lock. say we want to turn 720 lock to lock, or 360 from center. now what we need is a 1850 count per revolution encoder for a direct drive encoder. thats not a standard part, but its close. there are some 1800 and 2000 cpr made though.

wiring would likely be a fun task requiring a multimeter of some sort (an oscilloscope would be best for this). what you would need to do is probe each output from the encoder on the momo. you would need to find the input voltage (constant, likely 5 volts), ground (constant), and likely the 2 output channels. to find out who is who you need to get both to read either 5 volts or ground at the same time. what i am unsure of is who needs to switch 1st. i am not sure if it would matter in ffb mode, but in ffb off mode, i suspect it only reverses the axis.

as for the $$$$ method, idk, but a servo amp might work. odds are its a pwm signal going to the original motor. if you could put a high switching speed amp with a higher current rating, you might be able to put a bigger motor on it for more torque. they make servo amps, but i am unsure of their input. could be pwm or something else entirely. without knowing a bout the motor input, sizing one would be extremely difficult. what you would need is one that has a high response time in the kHz, but 10s of kHz, or 100s of kHz, idk. this amp would need its own power source, and run in series between the output from the momo board to the motor. the encoder would go strait into the momo where the current encoder goes. at this point i would find an electical engineer (one that works with automation would be great) and ask them about the amp in detail. sensors i have worked with, power systems and motor drive designs not really. so again find a electrical, and hopefully one that deals with power systems and/or automation might help. i might bug an ECE friend and see what he thinks on a suitable amp for this if i ever get time.

[Bose321]

Text
Hi, thanks for your post. I'm not sure if I want to do any big changes to my wheel at the moment. I am wondering, Can't I just put a bigger motor in it?

[chbright]

Hi, thanks for your post. I'm not sure if I want to do any big changes to my wheel at the moment. I am wondering, Can't I just put a bigger motor in it?
i would expect if you did, you likely blow the board as a bigger motor attempts to draw more current.

i would say an h-bridge of sorts might work in getting a bigger motor in there. unfortunatley i suspect that part of the circuit the board has is a torque feedback unit. if so, well that will make it really hard to do as an h-bridge will isolate the current the motor is taking from the momo board (will go through the transistors).

if i had one i would start looking up ICs on the board and see what turns up. i am wondering what motor driver they might be using.

[Bose321]

Hi all! My wheel is kinda done now. I just don't wanna continue with these crappy electronics. Is there someone that can code a program so I could use an other type on engine? I really want FFB that can break your fingers so strong. Any suggestions? I really want to get rid of the current stuff. I've also heard it's possible that you count the amount of degrees, and after the max, the engine goes full strength so it's impossible to turn the wheel anymore. I'd like to hear some feedback from you guys that can help me. I am willing to pay money for someone that can make such an app and suggest me all the other stuff like engine etc.

[mcintyrej]

What software are you running it from now? The logitech drivers? Surely somewhere in the config files there must be the force variable you can change. I know that you can change it in the RBR (Richard Burns Rally) cfg files so that you get much much more force out of the wheel - even when the logitech drivers are matched.

Edit: Brilliant project by the way, take some pictures so we can see it in action!

[Bose321]

What software are you running it from now? The logitech drivers? Surely somewhere in the config files there must be the force variable you can change. I know that you can change it in the RBR (Richard Burns Rally) cfg files so that you get much much more force out of the wheel - even when the logitech drivers are matched.

Edit: Brilliant project by the way, take some pictures so we can see it in action!
Hm... Dunno, I really want something new, because this is just not enough. I will check a con fig file though. I am using Logitech profiler. I will try to remember to take pics tomorrow.

[Bose321]

Sorry for double post.
I've made 3 new pictures. As you can see it is a bit transparent now, hehe. The red stuff on the large gear is just some grease. I've finialy Connected the wires for buttons, flappy pedals and thel lights. It isn't the best way to do it, but it is just to get the buttons work. Soon I will put the wires in the wheel itself so you can't even see them. :) But I really need some serious FFB... :P

[Riders Motion]

iSteer, do you?

[Bose321]

iSteer, do you?
Hehe, that aint a bad name at all :razz:

[driftoner]

im trully sorry for the revival of these thread .

but i noticed you used alot of rc car parts .well i think anyway lol.

im an rc drifter so i have plenty of rc car parts.also i noticed you used alot of alloys and stuff ,so i have another convenient fact ...i live right next door to a metal works :thumb:.also another i own a momo and want more steering .would this be an easy prodject for me?

[Bose321]

Hmm... I can't remember I used RC parts. I think it is an easy project. It is just not worth the money for the ballscrew etc. Unless you got an other FFB system.

Are there people here who could help me?

[willynovi]

Bose, great job, you work really hard on this wheel.
I sujest you check out on this link where Frex´s wheel is undercover.
I hope it will help you and maybe change a little your desing using two screw ball nut. I think this is the best way to get really strong force feedback.
I on my own also working on a FFB wheel from scrach, soon i´ll post some pics.
Keep working.

[Bose321]

Bose, great job, you work really hard on this wheel.
I sujest you check out on this link where Frex´s wheel is undercover.
I hope it will help you and maybe change a little your desing using two screw ball nut. I think this is the best way to get really strong force feedback.
I on my own also working on a FFB wheel from scrach, soon i´ll post some pics.
Keep working.
Okay. Could you link me to where that FREX is undercover? Thanks, I really have worked hard indeed. Keep me informed of your project :thumb:

[willynovi]

Oh man, sorry, i din not copy the link. Here it is.
http://www.x-simulator.de/forum/frex-simwheel-t1018.html

I also attache somo pics. Last days i made some more.
Soon more pics.
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2MNpBi (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2MNpBi)
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2MNR1S (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2MNR1S)
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV2wC6f0 (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV2wC6f0)
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx1fMveS (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx1fMveS)
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV2wCP8A (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV2wCP8A)
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2MPjk9 (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2MPjk9)
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx1fOrsS (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx1fOrsS)

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV30bVnS (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV30bVnS)
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2Rgjg0 (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2Rgjg0)
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2RgvJJ (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2RgvJJ)
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2RgNbJ (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2RgNbJ)
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV30d8Ii (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV30d8Ii)
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV30dbcr (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV30dbcr)
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2RjhkJ (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2RjhkJ)
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2RjoP9 (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2RjoP9)

[Bose321]

Looks nice. I didn't really learn alot more about the FREX :shrug: