Proper chicanes

[Rudy van Buren]

Lately me and some friends have been discussing the chicanes in lfs alot,
We all came out with the same the arent the best to keep it clean here.

Whats the goal from a chicane if you can fly over the curbs / grass like on fe2 - 3 or like in kyoto 3-3r onto / from the oval over the gravel.

The thing what the chicanes causes is cutting and then the complains start again from he cutted more and thats why hese faster etc...

The goal of a chicane in real life is bring the speed down, well we1 chicane with fzr 180kph fe2 with fzr 200 kph fe3 160 kph ky3 210 kph, thats not realy bringing the speed down.
And of course make overtaking oportunities what happens at this moment in the chicanes are crashes there is 1 line possible and if you enter in with 2 cars always 1 crashes.

like this picture what my friend darkone made.

http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=66605&d=1221942742

If you get slow chicanes like this you get more lines aswell threw the chicanes, depending on driving style / car.
in these slower chicanes ( under 100 kph ) you get the change to make a diference as a driver as instead of having the most luck cutting over the gras. Also in these slow chicanes cutting them is useless because it will only slow you down.

If you look at the first chicane of Monza that brings action last chicane in suzuka brings action becaus the chicanes are slow and good for overtaking.

Looking at real life racing you see tracks eveloping there alot all the time like spa the last 5 years so maby som lfs tracks can get developt more aswell with better chicanes to make them even better to race at.

[N I K I]

I totally agree with whose post above.
What I'd like to add is that chicanes aren't must on track, lots of tracks doesn't have them at all, and one great example of great track without chicane is Interlagos.
This thread doesn't mean that all chicanes have to be "slow", but it means that like 70% of them should be "slow". For example Aston and Blackwood chicane (the ones before main straight), are pretty fine as they are now, and it's also quite hard to manage them fast, unlike some others. But they aren't "uber" fast, they're just "fast".
So maybe the rule is fast chicane before straight and if chicane is located at end of straight, then it should be slow, to make opportunity to pass.

[aroX123]

I agree fully 100%

[DaveWS]

+1000.

P.S. Ask a mod to add a poll.

[Darkone55]

Yea, you're right. It's not really usefull to cut a slow chicane indeed. Especially when it would have some high curbs, and maybe those black/yellow bumps. Or just tyres (although this is annoying if someone in front of you crashes in them).

[Rudy van Buren]

+1000.

P.S. Ask a mod to add a poll.


I will do that :)

[arrowkart4]

agree +9999

the chicanes in lfs arnt realistic at all imo. lets get something done about it :thumb:
good form rudy:nod:

[pearcy_2k7]

+1 :thumbsup:

[GreyBull [CHA]]

+1. And that giant kerbs in fern bay's chicanes doesn't look very realistic.

[[DUcK]]

-9999999 you dipshit....






(+1 :shy:)

[K.Dingeling]

+1 :)

[zurdospeed]

+1000

[GuRu_PL]

+1099432973 Good idea :thumb:

[Jabbapl]

Great, more braking, it is a AWESOME idea

[TypeRacing]

Thats right, chicanesis for slowing down.
I agree

[Vego]

I agree, but if we want to change shikanes we will must delete all pb's on this tracks, because it' slower.

[Rudy van Buren]

Offcourse that will be done if tracks get realy a change :)

[MaKaKaZo]

Irl, they use slow chicanes mostly in F1 for safety reasons, to slow down some corners that in the past were ultra-fast-and-dangerous, and because if they don't add that kind of really slow corners then overtaking at other parts of the circuits is almost impossible.

What's the bad thing about "real chicanes"? They're boooooooooooring. You won't find a real life driver saying that one of those chicanes are in his favourite corners of any circuit. They're there just to them (the drivers) do a full braking, adn they don't like that. We wouldn't like that neither.

But, the fact is that some of the current LFS chicanes are worse than bad, so even making them into very easy, very slow chicanes would make them feel better.

So... all in all it's ok for me for some of the chicanes, but I don't think it will result in an awesome change.

[Trekkerfahrer]

I totally agree with whose post above.
What I'd like to add is that chicanes aren't must on track, lots of tracks doesn't have them at all, and one great example of great track without chicane is Interlagos.
This thread doesn't mean that all chicanes have to be "slow", but it means that like 70% of them should be "slow". For example Aston and Blackwood chicane (the ones before main straight), are pretty fine as they are now, and it's also quite hard to manage them fast, unlike some others. But they aren't "uber" fast, they're just "fast".
So maybe the rule is fast chicane before straight and if chicane is located at end of straight, then it should be slow, to make opportunity to pass.

these two and the corkscrew at as historic/north and cadet should stay as they are! they are legendary

but i agree with rudy, the actual chicanes are too fast and overtaking there is more like suicide than racing.

they should be like the graphic by darkone, only the westhill chicane, both fe chicanes (the chicane in gold can be fully (re)moved) and the kyoto gp chicane off the oval (like the chicane in national) should be updated.

my opinion:
+99999999999999.....

[Rudy van Buren]

these two and the corkscrew at as historic/north and cadet should stay as they are! they are legendary

but i agree with rudy, the actual chicanes are too fast and overtaking there is more like suicide than racing.

they should be like the graphic by darkone, only the westhill chicane, both fe chicanes (the chicane in gold can be fully (re)moved) and the kyoto gp chicane off the oval (like the chicane in national) should be updated.

Well the dont need to be removed but updated in a way that you can take them in a fast / safe way. and offcourse the corkscrew should stay there but som others Fe-2-3 ky3-3r we1 can get som work maby even last As chicane because its alot of cutting there aswell.

[Darkone55]

What's the bad thing about "real chicanes"? They're boooooooooooring. You won't find a real life driver saying that one of those chicanes are in his favourite corners of any circuit. They're there just to them (the drivers) do a full braking, adn they don't like that. We wouldn't like that neither.

You're right, from a driver's perspective they're not very challenging. But I think it's more important to have a lot of different (high, mid and low) speed corners.

Other arguments are given already.

[deggis]

I agree, but if we want to change shikanes we will must delete all pb's on this tracks, because it' slower.
Options:
1) less realistic track design
2) virtual penis reduction by 0.003 mm

Hard to choose. :scratchch

[Trekkerfahrer]

Well the dont need to be removed but updated in a way that you can take them in a fast / safe way. and offcourse the corkscrew should stay there but som others Fe-2-3 ky3-3r we1 can get som work maby even last As chicane because its alot of cutting there aswell.

for the we update: lets see what scawen has for us, he said that westhill gets an update soon

but i think the fe3 chicane should be (re)moved, there is no sense to make a chicane 200m before the next corner

[Rudy van Buren]

for the we update: lets see what scawen has for us, he said that westhill gets an update soon

but i think the fe3 chicane should be (re)moved, there is no sense to make a chicane 200m before the next corner


Well yea im not realy going for a removing but more updating it but yes 200m before next corner is a chicane isnt realy usefull but the fact of taking it flat flying over curbs with 160 kph ( fzr ) is more unrealistic ;)

[Trekkerfahrer]

Well yea im not realy going for a removing but more updating it but yes 200m before next corner is a chicane isnt realy usefull but the fact of taking it flat flying over curbs with 160 kph ( fzr ) is more unrealistic ;)

normally you would have no suspension anymore ;)

[Alonso900]

agree

[AndroidXP]

This poll is thoroughly useless. :shrug:
(+1)

[Darkone55]

This poll is thoroughly useless. :shrug:
(+1)
Well, I think it's clearly making a statement so far. :)

[dzban]

Very good idea !!

[SauberDrifter]

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f293/sparkythedog/skippy.jpg

Awesome track design!

[AndroidXP]

Awesome track design!
Indeed, it is quite awesome.

1) What you display is blatant track cutting
2) This is not in a 'grey zone', so admin action would be imminent
3) This is only possible/feasible due to incomplete physics and damage model

This thread is about badly designed chicanes, not places where you can cut the track in a major way and be faster. It's about chicanes that effectively don't slow you down and encourage you to cut them in a technically legal but normally impossible (due to damage) way.

[Rudy van Buren]

cutting it like that isnt even faster :P

[wsinda]

normally you would have no suspension anymore ;)Then would the problem be solved if we had realistic suspension damage?

[Rudy van Buren]

Then would the problem be solved if we had realistic suspension damage?
This thread goes about chicanes being realistic compair to real life not about the suspension model from lfs ;)

[AndroidXP]

Then would the problem be solved if we had realistic suspension damage?
To some extent, yes, but it still doesn't solve that some chicanes have a too small slow down effect.

[Shotglass]

What you display is blatant track cutting

it isnt according to a large number of forum members and ron dennis :)

oh as for the topic... +juan

[baSh0r]

+500000000000000000000000000000000%

on that rudy. i hope the devs just listen to us and change it significantly.

[rusty8]

no :D:x

[AndroidXP]

:x indeed, Blackwood doesn't even have a chicane that would count as badly designed. Oddly placed maybe, but the chicane itself is fine.

[Rudy van Buren]

oops

[AndroidXP]

I was responding to rusty, so... :confused:

[Rudy van Buren]

I was responding to rusty, so... :confused:

so i reeded it wrong sry ;)

[chanoman315]

I agree in that we should have proper chicanes, like the one from the picture

[Chrisuu01]

+ a number so high al the cumputer power in the world canot display it

[Kristjan.J]

+1 :nod:


100th 'Agree' voter. :razz:

[qstomeq]

+0,8

its deff true that chicanes at fern bay got some arcade style, but its not the worst thing, thing that makes me mad is consequence of the hit, car shouldnt fly allover the place after hitting a goddamn tyre.
and its not just about luck to drive them fast, if think its a skill to control what others call a luck. so... i agree with modifying SOME of the chicanes, with comparing a consequences of a hit in LFS and real live, that what suc the most

[FBUT Bishop]

+1, great idea, i hope devs are looking for fix that!

[pearcy_2k7]

That Eau Rouge one is too bumpy in my opinion and the incline/decline at the top and on entry is too steep as most cars bottom out and him the rather large verge on the top shortly followed my a massive bump, im all for bumps but to have them somewhere you know for a fact a real circuit wouldn't to stop carnage is a bit of a joke IMO

[FBUT Bishop]

Do you talk about the Aston turn?
If yes, i think its not at all like the Raidillon at Spa...
Its possible to pass the real Raidillon at full throttle, but impossible for the aston turn...
A turn like the real one would be great in LFS!
Hope you understand me, my english is sooooooo bad :schwitz:

[Hallen]

That Eau Rouge one is too bumpy in my opinion and the incline/decline at the top and on entry is too steep as most cars bottom out and him the rather large verge on the top shortly followed my a massive bump, im all for bumps but to have them somewhere you know for a fact a real circuit wouldn't to stop carnage is a bit of a joke IMO

Well, that's because it isn't supposed to be the Eau Rouge. Using that name for that corner leads to expectations that can't be satisfied with that corner. That set of corners is much more like the Cork Screw at Laguna if you must compare to a RL track. It is much slower and much steeper than Eau Rouge. And it isn't really a chicane either; it is part of the track dictated by the natural terrain (if electronic Digital Terrain Models can be considered "natural" :D).

The first chicane/corners at KY3 are awesome. They slow you down and are tough to get right.

There are chicanes out there that are taken at stupid speeds that nobody would ever do in real life... and this is done because curb hopping and straitening out those chicanes is possible. If they were deeper chicanes, then those things wouldn't be as much of a problem.

I also hate the chicane on AS3 (and other configs). But that is because it is hard to get right, not so much because it is a cheesy design per se.

[Shotglass]

but the chicane itself is fine.

except that it isnt really a chicane

[Hyperactive]

The problem with all the LFS "chicanes" is that they are way too fast and wrongly shaped. One of the issues is the huge width of all tracks and other is the lack of tight turns. If we look at few of the corners individually we can defenately see a pattern.

Starting with Blackwood the T2/T3 is quite fast and the long straight really rewards any cutting done through the corners there. With the recent blackwood "fix" the curbs are far more friendly which make it even easier to cut the corners. The same really for both directions.
Problems: width, shape, cutting

Then there is the KY3 corner which has similar problems. Curb edges are bugged, the corner is way too fast and wide and you can gain time by cutting quite a lot. Really needs a redesign or at least a bugfix.
Problems: width, shape, bugged curb edges, cutting

Fernbay "chicanes" on the straights. Very fast and dangerous, getting the optimum line through these requires touching the tire stacks on both apexes. Easy to get wrong and cause a big accident to everyone coming after you. Curoiously enough the corners are placed on the middle of the straights so one might think that they are there to slow you down which they don't do at all.
Problems: width, shape, cutting, extremely dangerous

The other fern bay chicane-alikes. Always very fast, always going over the high curbs and mostly cutting as deep as it is possible to get away with. With the tire stacks the added danger of LFS-moonflights (R) is almost guaranteed.
Problems: again, width, shape, cutting, danger of autoX objects near the track.

AS5, the back straight kink. Probably meant to be another very fast couple of corners. The cutting is not such a big issue on this corner because dirt on tires will hurt corner exit altough there is some much green pavement on the insides of both turns allowing quite a bit curb on entry. The problems the huge width of Aston can cause have been quite succesfully taken care of by making the corner itself enough big.
Problems: too much green pavement

SO1/SO6. The "bus stop" is just a disaster waiting to happen. Again, too fast, too wide and one line through with walls right next to the track. Very dangerous set of corners.
Problems: shape, speed, lack of space, dangerous

Last corner of AS3. Quite nice corner which again is made too fast and the long straight really rewards cutting. The tire stack on the exit is one more accident waiting to happen as the fast line is to touch those tires slightly, setting them moving.
Problems: width, shape, cutting, autoX objects near the racing line.

The 2nd/3rd corners of KY3R. Another a bit strange set of corners where you can gain time by cutting the corner over full width of car.
Problems: cutting, shape, green pavement

Example of a chicane that just works. The AS5 turn 3, the 2nd of the slowest corners on that config. No rewards for cutting, slow enough and enjoyably challening on reverse config.

Always too fast and always too wide. And always the shape allows one quite straight line through. Make the corners slower, the road narrower or changing the shape to a kink or slow corner or anything else could make these a lot more interesting and fun to drive.

[hansonator69]

I want to see a Surfers Paradise or Adelaide-style chicane. Road course and added kerbs basically :-)

[[DUcK]]

normally you would have no suspension anymore ;)
yes you would, you can take it flat out in virtually any car, its really not a chicane at all, merely a tweak of the steering wheel and pray :)
i find it much more fun trying to go around that corner without touching the kerbs, on a warm up lap say, than going through there flat out.

[Chrisuu01]

My further opinion is that some of the chicanes get changed and some stay the same i mean Of fe gold You got to love that chicane dont change it please....

But The Kyoto chicane that needs to change man that is not a chicane that is a Rambam S bend..... and IMo the worst corner in the game since veryone cuts it heavaly:( .
What we need is that thing changed so peopel need to stamp on the brakes avoid lock ups and go with the cars line it takes.

And that chicane on aston club needs to be changed into soemhing more chalenging than little lift of and FLOOR it

[AMB]

+ 1

Babe :) Seriously good idea though, no point having a chicane you can do flat out, it may aswell be a straight otherwise.

[Dajmin]

no Point Having A Chicane You Can Do Flat Out, It May Aswell Be A Straight Otherwise.
Q F T :)

[AMB]

Q F T :)

Why does that quote seem strange :scratchch

and what does QFT stand for?

[AndroidXP]

Why does that quote seem strange :scratchch

and what does QFT stand for?
I have no idea, but it looks like some anti-caps code is working in reverse there. Everything that started with an uppercase letter is completely lowercase (including your name), and everything that was lowercase starts with an uppercase letter.

"Quoted for truth" ;)

[Napalm Candy]

Totally agree
+1

[nesrulz]

+1000!

[Nick.]

Absolutely +1.

I don't race very often, but when I do, the cutting on chicanes is always ridiculous. The orginal Gran Turismo Special Stage 11 had a proper chicane in it, and I always crashed in the wall because of it :D

[Gunn]

There's nothing really wrong at all with any chicane in LFS, and some people also seem to think that esses is the same as a chicane. The problem in LFS seems to be the stupid way many people drive the tracks, not the tracks themselves. Furthermore, if you race with decent people there is no cutting at all going on. Just because people choose to drive it like an arcade game doesn't mean the chicanes necessarily need redesigning. What would be more realistic and more beneficial to the sim is if there was more of a negative effect from cutting, and certainly no advantage to be gained from doing so. In real racing they have marshals and stewards to penalise for bad behaviour. Run-off areas and places where it is possible to go off track with no disadvantage are not only common nowadays, they're become more prevalent due to safety concerns. So if realism is the goal we would see even more places where it is possible to cut a corner or chicane.

Cutting isn't occurring due to poor track design, it's occurring due to poor people design.
If people are just worried about cutting, a more relevant discussion would include questions and ideas about how a race sim might handle and deal with illegal racing without making unrealistic tracks or imposing silly penalties on innocent victims of a shunt or accident.

For those who think that LFS chicanes are not realistic, I'm certain that if you visit or drive on enough of the world's race tracks (especially club tracks) you will discover that LFS chicanes are not strange at all. Real world examples can be found, including chicanes that range from very extreme to very minimalistic in terms of their ability to slow down cars, in terms of the risk factor involved in taking the chicane fast, and in terms of overtaking opportunities created (if that was even the purpose for the inclusion of a chicane in the first place).

There are a miriad of difficulties in handling penalties fairly in a racing sim and no sim to date has ever got it quite right (without real-time human intervention) and I'm not even sure it is possible in LFS either, but I'd hate to see a reactionary redesign of LFS tracks just because people can't race properly.

2c

[Rudy van Buren]

Im not going in a way about racing properly but if you take first chicane fe gold, you can look every high level leaque and all drivers just cut it in a sertain way there is no one who doesnt even toutch the curbs, same with first chicane fe green, because in big leaques you need to be fast and the fastest way threw this chicane is over the curbs / little gras at fe3 one. Even in a hotlap its the fastest way even hlvc. Offcourse people dont need to see esses as chicanes but the main reason for this thread was ky3 chicane where you go off the oval, because if think that the drivers how cut it are not realy drivers on a certain level, you get down about all leaques becaus it was done everywhere. Same with as3 last chicane you need to cut it perfect to be fast and dont mean cutting with 4 wheels offcourse but 2 wheels on the gravel but thats not the goal of the chicane right? and maby i said that wrong and do you guys think that i mean going 4 wheel of track with cutting but i dont, i just mean 2 wheels on the gras or gravel

[Matt0snap]

Even thought I voted Agree. I don't think the problem is the tracks. I think the problem is the cars. In real life, there are reasons why people don't cut chicanes. Whether it be wreaking suspension, or ripping off a bumper.

But until LFS perfects damage and physics, certain compromises have to be taken in order to regulate the cutting of tracks. That would be why I think LFS's chicanes should be a lot sharper UNTIL lfs gets a better damage model.

[[DUcK]]

blah
so you're saying, if in real life, there was this corner that you had to cut, and everyone knew it was stupid to, but to win, you had to, that you wouldn't do it? that's just stupid.
it's got nothing to do with the people of lfs, there are some people who drive just to drive, there are some who race to win. the people that race to win, will bend the rules untill they snap, to win. this includes cutting. the chicanes in lfs for cutting, is like shoving a big mudcake infront of a fat kids face. ofcourse you're going to cut them, since most of them are taken flat out.
the point of this thread is that the chicanes should be made more proper, so people actually have to brake and slow down for them. then we would also get less damage, because you'd take them at a slower speed, unlike the flat out ones that are in lfs now. that's what they are for in real life anyway, to slow the track down.

2c

[Glenn67]

;930648']blah

No what he is saying is that the general design of tracks in LFS is ok but people choosing to drive those tracks like an arcade game (knowing there are no penalties for cutting) is what the problem is. I agree with Gunn :p

In addition I think we will eventually see better automated penalty systems and/or better suspension/tyre damage modelling which will sort this out.

Also another factor is that the whole track envionment is too clinical, at some future point we hopefully will get dynamic track environments were people will not be able to drive so close to the limit lap after lap without more mishaps.

Without these things redesigning chicanes want change anything that dramatically imo

[[DUcK]]

blah

yeah that's my point. it's not "arcade" like, because people will cut in real life, if there's an option. i know that i cut a lot, and sometimes i bend steering arms and etc, but that's not really the point, the point of this thread is that chicanes need to be made to prevent cutting; achieved by making us have to go a lot slower through them (by braking obviously..).
it'd be more fun too imo, and provide more variety to the tracks :)

[Dac]

yup. what annoys me is that in the XRR i cannot cut the last chicane at Aston National to save my life. ive tried reducing the anti roll bar and springs. the car just spins around in mid air like a pebble skimming on water whereas other people seem to just glide over them. i can get a 1:43:19 but no further due to this corner.

[Crashgate3]

The only chicane I really hate is the one at the top of the hill at Fern Bay nera the 'beach'. In single file, you can take it almost flat-out but if you happen to approach it two abreast, then it's impossible to get both cars through without slowing right down.

[[DUcK]]

same with most 'chicanes' in lfs, cos you don't have to brake cos you can cut them, but as soon as the corner becomes somewhat a tighter radius you have to, contrary to if it was already a tight corner

[N I K I]

@Gunn's blah text:
there always has to be someone playing smart ass, well here you go:
:bananadea:bananadea:bananadea:bananadea:bananadea :bananadea:bananadea:bananadea

:shrug:sorry had to

[Crashgate3]

;930799']same with most 'chicanes' in lfs, cos you don't have to brake cos you can cut them, but as soon as the corner becomes somewhat a tighter radius you have to, contrary to if it was already a tight corner

Exactly :)

There's a massive difference between 'having to brake compared to having to brake a bit more' and 'not having to brake at all compared to having to brake'

...if that makes any sense at all. Sometimes I wish writing could have parentheses like mathematics... :D

[Gunn]

;930648']so you're saying, if in real life, there was this corner that you had to cut, and everyone knew it was stupid to, but to win, you had to, that you wouldn't do it? that's just stupid.No, it isn't stupid to refuse to make an illegal move that would get you disqualified or penalised in real racing.

@Gunn's blah text:
there always has to be someone playing smart ass, well here you go:
:bananadea:bananadea:bananadea:bananadea:bananadea :bananadea:bananadea:bananadea

:shrug:sorry had toNot sure what point you are trying to make here.

[Rudy van Buren]

No, it isn't stupid to refuse to make an illegal move that would get you disqualified or penalised in real racing.


So your basicly saying its our own problem and that we just need to drive around the curbs in the chicanes? :x common check replays from all big leaques everybody flies over the curbs.....
Its like duck said for the win you need to so everybody does... to avoid situations like this a change / update to the chicanes would be a good solution.

[Darkone55]

See Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, or Magny-Course, they jump over the curbs in the chicane all the time. No more then everybody does in LFS. It's part of racing; using as much track as possible. As long as there are at least 2 wheels on the curbs..

But the point isn't the cutting. The point is that the chicanes are just flat-out suspension killers, instead of chicanes.

[Shotglass]

See Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, or Magny-Course, they jump over the curbs in the chicane all the time. No more then everybody does in LFS. It's part of racing; using as much track as possible. As long as there are at least 2 wheels on the curbs..

even the f1 teams were unsure if not having 2 wheels on track in magny course is ok with the stewards this year so its very much up for debate which way through a chicane is acceptable

[fujiwara]

LOL...there's really people making excuses about that thing in Fern Green, ex ?

[Hallen]

See Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, or Magny-Course, they jump over the curbs in the chicane all the time. No more then everybody does in LFS. It's part of racing; using as much track as possible. As long as there are at least 2 wheels on the curbs..

But the point isn't the cutting. The point is that the chicanes are just flat-out suspension killers, instead of chicanes.

Yes, very true. But, they aren't taking massively high curbs at 120+mph. Maybe at half that speed.

Yes, better damage models will help the situation and so will changeable track conditions. If somebody drags dirt onto the track because they cut, then everybody pays the price because you lose grip.

But the main point is that some of the chicanes out there demand that you take them mostly flat out and that you take as much curb as possible to do it. In real life, not only would your suspension be damaged, but you would most likely crash. Real racing faces the same problems. Drivers will take big risks and push things past the point of sanity to win. We've all seen it. That is why just asking people to not take so much curb doesn't work. A simple redesign of some of the more problematic chicanes would be a step in the right direction while we wait for the more difficult dynamic changes to the physics modeling. And honestly, it would make tracks like FE much more enjoyable to drive. It would be more technical and demanding. FE is one of the best tracks out there with some really cool corners. The chicanes ruin it for some because no matter how good you are on the rest of the track, blasting through the chicane is the only way to get a competitive time.

[Hyperactive]

There's nothing really wrong at all with any chicane in LFS, and some people also seem to think that esses is the same as a chicane.
It would really seem that Eric seems to think so...

The problem in LFS seems to be the stupid way many people drive the tracks, not the tracks themselves. Furthermore, if you race with decent people there is no cutting at all going on. Just because people choose to drive it like an arcade game doesn't mean the chicanes necessarily need redesigning. What would be more realistic and more beneficial to the sim is if there was more of a negative effect from cutting, and certainly no advantage to be gained from doing so. In real racing they have marshals and stewards to penalise for bad behaviour.
It is essentially the track and the car that dictates the good line around the track, the drivers just try to find that fastest line. If you can safely gain up to 0.5 secs in one corner you will do it, especially if it is actually safer to cut that drive correctly. The KY3 "chicane" or "esses" or what ever they might be called is the best example of that. If you drive the corner while keeping two wheels always on tarmac you will most probably flip the car (GTRs) due to the kerbs. Or spin the car due to the bug in the kerb edge. But most certainly you will lose time and position(s) because you lose momentum for the next straights. Almost all of this applies to all "chicanes" in LFS. They are designed so that there is just one fast line through and it requires cutting. It is the nature of the tracks in LFS. Another prime example are the fern bay "chicanes" places in the middle of fast straights. Awfully dangerous, even with talented and thoughtful drivers. Might be a challenge to the driver to get it right in hotlapping but other than that it fails in being a challenging set of corners ending up a case about the track having a design flaw.

Cutting isn't occurring due to poor track design, it's occurring due to poor people design.
If people are just worried about cutting, a more relevant discussion would include questions and ideas about how a race sim might handle and deal with illegal racing without making unrealistic tracks or imposing silly penalties on innocent victims of a shunt or accident.
The same people manage to drive just fine on tracks where you can't gain huge chunks of time by driving a line through a corner that may seem like it was supposed to be driven that way. And if anything LFS tracks )even with the low amount of the tracks available) manage to have a lot of that kind of corners you will very rarely see on real life tracks.

For those who think that LFS chicanes are not realistic, I'm certain that if you visit or drive on enough of the world's race tracks (especially club tracks) you will discover that LFS chicanes are not strange at all. Real world examples can be found, including chicanes that range from very extreme to very minimalistic in terms of their ability to slow down cars, in terms of the risk factor involved in taking the chicane fast, and in terms of overtaking opportunities created (if that was even the purpose for the inclusion of a chicane in the first place).
Tracks like Aston, Kyoto or even Blackwood hardly can be classified as club tracks, they are quite easily identified as tracks meant for GT class and powerful single seater cars and yet they seem to have quite a lot of these club track chicanes. And when you look at the more club alike tracks in LFS, like fern bay, they are absolutely riddled with these chicanes. Sure there are and have been LFS-alike chicanes in real life, even on fast tracks (old silverstone, adelaide, old imola to mention a few) but at least the chicanes there have been designed with the wide track in mind. And as for the real club track chicanes, the track themselves are a lot narrower and the chicanes a lot tighter, even if they seem very quick in real life.

There are a miriad of difficulties in handling penalties fairly in a racing sim and no sim to date has ever got it quite right (without real-time human intervention) and I'm not even sure it is possible in LFS either, but I'd hate to see a reactionary redesign of LFS tracks just because people can't race properly.

2c

In the end it is about making the LFS tracks more enjoyable and challenging to drive, not about reactionary track redesign. A track should not be changed because I, or someone else, doesn't like a corner or two, but a track should be changed if a corner or two constantly cause issues and troubles to racers, marshalling and race organizations, or to even normal racers trying to drive according what is considered correct.

Everyone who has ever tried to create a track by themselves using 3dsmax or bob's track builder have come across the same issues we are talking about here. You change the track because you don't like it. And sometimes a corner or two is left to the published design which are later found to be problematic. If you look at LFS' tracks you will see very clearly that they have not been designed to be difficult to drive, they are extremely wide, corners have big constant radiuses and straights are always straight and "chicanes" always allow quite straight line through and on some cases there are corners which clearly need a fix or two. Maybe the reason why the corners in LFS re what they are is an issue that derives itself from the tire physics before the BF1 patch when the downforce cars essentially were quite difficult to drive on slow corners, lack of longitudal grip... or maybe Eric just likes fast tracks...

Anyways, the chicanes on fern bay straights and the KY3 chicanes need a redesign along with few corners because all they produce is trouble. But then again, in the larger picture people may disagree wether it is worth the effort to totally fix the tracks in LFS when the game itself is in huge need of new venues to race on. (or because the redesign effort put into these tracks don't reallt seem to fix the problems with the tracks).

Imho, of course :).

A simple redesign of some of the more problematic chicanes would be a step in the right direction while we wait for the more difficult dynamic changes to the physics modeling. And honestly, it would make tracks like FE much more enjoyable to drive. It would be more technical and demanding. FE is one of the best tracks out there with some really cool corners. The chicanes ruin it for some because no matter how good you are on the rest of the track, blasting through the chicane is the only way to get a competitive time.

I totally agree about fern bay :)

[Gunn]

So your basicly saying its our own problem and that we just need to drive around the curbs in the chicanes?I am?

Nobody drives around curbs in real life, they cross them, bounce off them and use them to help cornering. Hitting curbs is not cutting. The curbs are a part of the track, they are not out of bounds.

[Gunn]

It would really seem ....Not sure why you are making an argument out of my post, I don't disagree with most of what you are saying and I'm not arguing against any of your points. Some of the things you have said in reply to my post seem to indicate that you have missed my point entirely. But that's OK.

Everyone can continue with their little whinge now.

[Hyperactive]

...The problem in LFS seems to be the stupid way many people drive the tracks, not the tracks themselves. ... Cutting isn't occurring due to poor track design, it's occurring due to poor people design. ... I'd hate to see a reactionary redesign of LFS tracks just because people can't race properly.

2c

Not sure why you are making an argument out of my post, I don't disagree with most of what you are saying and I'm not arguing against any of your points. Some of the things you have said in reply to my post seem to indicate that you have missed my point entirely. But that's OK.

Everyone can continue with their little whinge now.

You have clearly stated that the problem, from your pov, seems to be the people driving the tracks "wrong", or like you said; "stupid way many people drive the tracks". What I'm saying is that the way you need to drive the tracks in LFS is because of what and how the tracks are.

[Glenn67]

In the end it is about making the LFS tracks more enjoyable and challenging to drive, not about reactionary track redesign. A track should not be changed because I, or someone else, doesn't like a corner or two, but a track should be changed if a corner or two constantly cause issues and troubles to racers, marshalling and race organizations, or to even normal racers trying to drive according what is considered correct.

I'm not against track redesigns hyper puts the point across very well.

A couple of points that stick in my mind though. In sim racing we take things to the ragged edge always! In our driving and in the interpretation of rules. While you do see two tyres off the track irl I don't ever recall seeing it to the extent we see in LFS and I don't believe that is just down to track design.

I believe one of the reasons we see it is that in any sim you just aren't subject to forces anywhere like you are irl. By that I mean steering ffb is weak even at high settings, irl if you were to go over curbs similar to say the one exiting the first S's at BL1 a driver would be having a hell of a time physically just keeping the car in a straight line as the forces through the wheel would be trying to rip the wheel out of his hands. In LFS the forces generated through ffb are hardly a hindrance at all and for the majority that use low settings it isn't even worth mentioning.

Secondly as has been mentioned I don't think it is as clear cut as people accept broadly in LFS about what is legal and illegal track usage. In LFS the majority have seemly concluded that two wheels off track is legal in all cases and 100% legit, irl I don't believe that is the case at all. Different race serries and even individual events will have clarification rulings on what is legal and imo it is illegal to put two tyres off track with exceptions being allowed by certain serries/race marshals.

Generally the definition of track is the outside of the white line on straights and corners without curbs and the outside of the curb. It is also stated that you should remain within the boundaries of the track while racing. I have failed (after an hour long search) to find any rule indicating it is normal and reasonable to take corners with two wheels off track or for that matter even mentions two wheels off track, if you have seen such rules please post a link so I can see.

[Psysim]

I can't talk from the experience of S1 and S2 so I vote based on the information that has been presented. I think the chicane in BL1 is perfect. If the other chicanes are less of a challenge they do (in my opinion) need to be re-designed.

I must also agree with Gunn, hitting a curb is part of a race, the curb is a part of the track and every race I have seen involves someone clipping the curbs.

[Hallen]

I can't talk from the experience of S1 and S2 so I vote based on the information that has been presented. I think the chicane in BL1 is perfect. If the other chicanes are less of a challenge they do (in my opinion) need to be re-designed.

I must also agree with Gunn, hitting a curb is part of a race, the curb is a part of the track and every race I have seen involves someone clipping the curbs.

Using the curb is a very important part of racing both IRL and in the sim. However, there are certain curbs you stay off of because they will badly upset the car or cause damage IRL. The chicanes we are talking about in LFS are either very tall and would damage a real car and are taken at extreme high speed (120+mph), or are very wide and low but have the "sleeping policeman" (as David Hobbs calls them) speed bumps on them. People find ways of jumping those curbs in LFS. If the chicanes were redesigned a tad, it would eliminate some of that problem (not all of it for sure... a lot of it is because it is a sim).

You will see this at Blackwood too. The last curb on the right at the exit of the chicane is always completely jumped when people are hot lapping and also a lot in the race. You can gain a real time advantage by doing that because you carry that speed all the way down the straight. I think that chicane is pretty challenging if you drive the real world line through it. But it gets a lot easier and faster if you jump that last curb. Just watch some hotlaps to see what I mean.

[[DUcK]]

You have clearly stated that the problem, from your pov, seems to be the people driving the tracks "wrong", or like you said; "stupid way many people drive the tracks". What I'm saying is that the way you need to drive the tracks in LFS is because of what and how the tracks are.

:thumb:

@gunn, i don't think you're fully grasping our term 'cut'. a perfect example of this is the chicane just coming off the oval part of ky long. this chicane can be taken flat - or close - in most cars. the thing is here, that it is hlvc, even if you 'cut' and hit those stupid metal things on the inside. i understand if you thought we were talking about cutting, as in purposely driving off the track to gain an advantage, but we're not. it's merely a 'cut', which is hlvc valid, but it ruins your suspension, and it's dangerous tbh. if someone tries to pass there, you can guarantee a car will be off the track, not only that, but if you're sitting close behind when racing in cars with downforce, you find yourself just going straight from their dirty air. that's fair enough if it happened to be a flatout sweeper, but it's not (even though most of us take it like one).. it's meant to be a chicane that we are supposed to slow down for.
i think the point that rudy is trying to make, is that the chicanes are just way too fast to be called a chicane, and we need them to be a tighter radius and blah blah blah :p

[[DUcK]]

Everyone can continue with their little whinge now.
not sure why you're whinging... taking a look at your stats you have:
Last race information: (http://www.lfsworld.net/#) (date n/a)
Travelled distance:47 Km
Fuel burnt:10 Ltr
Laps:0

the only reason that i'm putting those stats up, is that you attacked us racing drivers personally by saying that we're a 'poor design'. but what would you know? how do you know how we take corners? if you had have had atleast some valid stats, i'd almost agree that some of us drive in an irresponsible manner, but they get penalized. anyway, just saying, maybe you should just keep your opinions to yourself next time :)

[NoYPiDRiFTER]

Aston's chicane at grand prix track by the old pits or what ever you wanna call it, is ok, you have to slow down pretty much or you hit the tires into the restricted area.

[Glenn67]

;931487']the only reason that i'm putting those stats up, is that you attacked us racing drivers personally by saying that we're a 'poor design'. but what would you know?

Be careful about making assumptions :p

[Jakg]

;931487']not sure why you're whinging... taking a look at your stats you have:
Last race information: (http://www.lfsworld.net/#) (date n/a)
Travelled distance:47 Km
Fuel burnt:10 Ltr
Laps:0

the only reason that i'm putting those stats up, is that you attacked us racing drivers personally by saying that we're a 'poor design'. but what would you know? how do you know how we take corners? if you had have had atleast some valid stats, i'd almost agree that some of us drive in an irresponsible manner, but they get penalized. anyway, just saying, maybe you should just keep your opinions to yourself next time :)
Gunn races under a different account iirc.

[[DUcK]]

ahh ok, that clears that up then, sorry gunn :)

[Psysim]

Hallen, thanks for the info. Some of it I did know and some of it I didn't know. I have watched a few replays and video's but I will admit, not that many. I myself try to use the curbs at BL1, a challenge sometimes that I find rewarding. I can understand some peoples pains about curbs being jumped. I do think that high curbs are a part of the game and if they do damage avoid hitting them.

[Dalek0220]

+1 googol

Slow chicanes are in tons of racing tracks around the world. They're pretty much important.

[wsinda]

Slow chicanes are in tons of racing tracks around the world. They're pretty much important.Yes, but they were made for safety reasons. The first 50 years of car racing did without chicanes. They do not necessarily make racing more interesting.

I do agree with other posters that there's something wrong if chicanes are taken flat-out. I especially hate the bus-stop chicanes in Fern Bay, where you need to cut the curbs (and risk crashing) if you want to be competitive.

I'm not sure if converting them to low-speed "real" chicanes is a good solution. I can't imagine this would give interesting fights, especially with lower-powered cars where you don't have to feather the gas on curve exit. Instead, can't they be turned into high-speed esses with high curbs, like in Blackwood?

[Doorman]

;930648']so you're saying, if in real life, there was this corner that you had to cut, and everyone knew it was stupid to, but to win, you had to, that you wouldn't do it? that's just stupid.
it's got nothing to do with the people of lfs, there are some people who drive just to drive, there are some who race to win. the people that race to win, will bend the rules untill they snap, to win. this includes cutting. the chicanes in lfs for cutting, is like shoving a big mudcake infront of a fat kids face. ofcourse you're going to cut them, since most of them are taken flat out.
the point of this thread is that the chicanes should be made more proper, so people actually have to brake and slow down for them. then we would also get less damage, because you'd take them at a slower speed, unlike the flat out ones that are in lfs now. that's what they are for in real life anyway, to slow the track down.

2c
I think what he's saying is, that in real life at point on a track, i.e. a chicane, where liberties are taken, i.e. cutting (cutting is regarded as having all four wheels off the track. At least two wheels are to be on the track. The kerb is not the track.), a steward is stationed. If he notices a driver cutting deliberately that driver will/could be given a warning. If he does it again he will/could be black flagged! His race will/could be over. The stewards would have discretion. RAC Competitions rules. I don't know about the rest of the world.

[Glenn67]

...a steward is stationed...

That's exactly it different stewards and events classes will have varying levels of strictness of these rules and will also interperet them slightly differently. I've read rules which imply the outer part of a curb is considered the outer perimiter of the circuit so that would cause a different interpretation to two wheels must be on tarmac as you interperet RAC rules. In such cases pre race meetings would clarify these interpretations for the drivers.

In LFS public races there is no clarification of server rules in general and the interpretation is left to the drivers who as Duck has stated will take them to breaking point. Which ultimately means that the majority think that two wheels on the grass is fine but four wheels on the grass is cutting. In real life racing I don't think it is so easy, I'm more inclined to think that if more than half the body width of the car has passed outside of the boundry of the track that it would be regarded as cutting by most stewards if done frequently. In LFS it is common to see the inside tyres just on the perimiter of the track with 90% of the car off track, which irl if done lap after lap I believe would be interpreted as cutting.

[Doorman]

You're quite right, stewards interpret the rules. Basically, they're looking for the piss takers or the downright dangerous!
Maybe in LFS we need our governing body,the Devs, to state what they think is 'legal' and put in place a method of punishment much the same way as speeding in the pitlane, failing to pit etc. but ditch the arcadey messages splashed across the screen. (that's a different subject though) Even if it was a server option like no resetting or compulsory pitting at least it would stop the ongoing, never ending 'cutting' debate.

EDIT: It would eliminate the need for tyre stacks as well.

[Hyperactive]

You're quite right, stewards interpret the rules. Basically, they're looking for the piss takers or the downright dangerous!
Maybe in LFS we need our governing body,the Devs, to state what they think is 'legal' and put in place a method of punishment much the same way as speeding in the pitlane, failing to pit etc. but ditch the arcadey messages splashed across the screen. (that's a different subject though) Even if it was a server option like no resetting or compulsory pitting at least it would stop the ongoing, never ending 'cutting' debate.

EDIT: It would eliminate the need for tyre stacks as well.

But it wouldn't work because of few things:
- penalties would be given by ai, or scripts and triggers. There is huge chance that majority of penalties on first laps would be harsh or unneeded as well as decent amount of all penalties as well because ai can't make a difference between accident avoidance, loss of control, accidental cut by just few millimetres and straight-forward cutting with no intention to even stay ont track.
- penalties given by humans need a lot of admins per race to make it work. Admins are too busy on other stuff, and watching corners instead of racers is not really a working solution. And most of the time admin is not even present or watching

Personally I think that on those few corners where cutting is serious problem the error lies in the track design and it is easier to fix by fixing the error itself instead of creating an other system to reduce the effects of the error. Don't get me wrong though. The system Vic put in place is another great addon for LFS but it should not be used for trying to fix problems it can't fix :). Nor should any ai-admin system be used because it doesn't fix the actual cause of the problems.

Tire stacks are an ok system, they clearly show where you can go. Although it would be even better if the tyre collision physics were much better and also bigger tire stacks were available.

[[DUcK]]

... In LFS it is common to see the inside tyres just on the perimiter of the track with 90% of the car off track, which irl if done lap after lap I believe would be interpreted as cutting.

i totally agree (for a first..)! so we need make the chicanes more like chicanes, so we don't cut them! :D

[Glenn67]

;933053'](for a first..)!

:p we are never far from agreeing ducky, it's just sometimes we have trouble understanding each other because you speak alot of quack :razz:

[[DUcK]]

quack up qunt! :D

[Doorman]

But it wouldn't work because of few things:
- penalties would be given by ai, or scripts and triggers. There is huge chance that majority of penalties on first laps would be harsh or unneeded as well as decent amount of all penalties as well because ai can't make a difference between accident avoidance, loss of control, accidental cut by just few millimetres and straight-forward cutting with no intention to even stay ont track.

It would be the same for everyone. Also it would very likely, after a period of assimilation, cut out that mad scramble for places at T1. We are supposed to be in control after all!



Tire stacks are an ok system, they clearly show where you can go. Although it would be even better if the tyre collision physics were much better and also bigger tire stacks were available.

I get more whinges about tyre stacks being 'on the racing line' when clearly they are not, than anything else. This, I think, is because LFSers have come to regard cutting as legitimate.
We'll just have to bumble along as usual until a solution is found. In my opinion an answer is necessary if LFS is to 'grow up' :shrug:

[Glenn67]

;933137']quack up qunt! :D

For those that live beyond the bigpond and think all of us downunder are a bunch of quacks I feel I must demistify duck speek for you :scratchch what the Duck is saying is he agree's that we are never very far from agreement and that he speeks alot of quack but further more he thinks I speek alot of quack also :D

I'm honored Mr Ducky that you think I am able to be a quack!

O/T :x

It would be the same for everyone. Also it would very likely, after a period of assimilation, cut out that mad scramble for places at T1. We are supposed to be in control after all!

I agree with Doorman and would have no problem with getting unfairly penalised on occassion if it meant for better racing in the long run. Such a system could also be done as in real life on a scale. i.e. first occurance in a race your given a warning, second or third occurance you are given a drive through and if repeated continually you recieve the black flag. It would also only be needed to be triggered on corners that will give you an advantage, that way you wouldn't get penalised for say being squeezed onto the inside grass area at T1 BL1 at the start to avoid an accident.

I do think some chicanes in LFS are very dangerous though and could do with abit of tweaking so please don't take me the wrong way and think I'm 100% against redisgning tracks, I often make comments to try stimulate discusion and I think people take me the wrong way at times :D.

Oh and irl I've seen plenty of pissed off drivers that think they have been unfairly penalised so I don't think AI marshels making a few unjust decisions is that far from reality lol

[[DUcK]]

haha! :D
most qunts can quack, rarely though, do they make sense :p

[ozark]

Why are you tryng to say modify chicanes to avoid track cut or modify chicanes to be like in the real one's. All what i thing is some chicanes aren't safe cause they are very fast and you don't have chance to overtake at that point so you can crash to tyres and do a moonflight. I thing some chicanes have to be re-done to make it more slower and have more oportunity to overtake (and be like real one's, so LFS will gain more realistic enviroment)
Sorry for mi bad english.

[hotmail]

well what to say,

results are talking :nod:


i am here now for a bit , but never saw a that good results

[bbman]

This, I think, is because LFSers have come to regard cutting as legitimate.
We'll just have to bumble along as usual until a solution is found. In my opinion an answer is necessary if LFS is to 'grow up' :shrug:

2 things need to be done for LfS to grow: Do away with those oversized kerbs (very very few kerbs in RL are wide enough to fit a whole car, yet 90% of LfS' do - Fern Bay is the only environment where the kerbs are the right size) and make them unsettle your car more OR officially declare them off track, with all HLVC cutting rules applying...

[Rudy van Buren]

well what to say,

results are talking :nod:


i am here now for a bit , but never saw a that good results

I hope that results are talking, otherwise the could just close this improvements threads aswell becaus i looked back far but didnt found any result like this.:shy:

[KassadGLA]

+1

[ADX.14]

+2.7 :) I like the idea.

[TAZ (!)]

agree +1000000

:thumb:

[Mille Sabords]

I get more whinges about tyre stacks being 'on the racing line' when clearly they are not, than anything else. This, I think, is because LFSers have come to regard cutting as legitimate.
You are right, it takes time to re-learn the track when you have a go with your tyre stacks on DmR server.
I personnally find it ineresting and challenging as it creates new corners - nearly new tracks!
So I would like to see some evolution to existing tracks, similar to RL tracks - after many races and practice some corners are modified to provide more safety, or a better show - why not in LFS?

Even better since we have no RL tracks we could keep both versions of a corner... configurable tracks +1 :D

[Thommm]

I hope something is done with the most convincing poll results ever :)

[St Hammer]

If one don't like the curbs in LFS? Buy another game maybe?:scratchch Or why not take them as they are. If they damage the car due to an accident. So what in real racing it do cost a bunch of money. In LFS Nothing.
Just a thought:smileypul

[St Hammer]

Sorry wrong not curbs should be chicane

[baSh0r]

I hope something is done with the most convincing poll results ever :)

I hope so too, but i'm afraid the devs won't even take a look in this thread.

[Rudy van Buren]

I hope so too, but i'm afraid the devs won't even take a look in this thread.
I think this thread made his point, if devs dont listen to threads made in here / this one, why is there a 'improvements thread' then :)

[boosterfire]

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f293/sparkythedog/skippy.jpg

Awesome track design!

This kind of brings up a good point. The whole thing of having such height change on a corner, was, I guess, to mimic the corkscrew of laguna seca, or at least, to do something somewhat similar.

However, since it's in the middle of two relatively straight parts of the track, cars in both directions arrive there full throttle. In my opinion this thing would gain a lot by being a proper chicane, just with a big height change in it.

If you look at it from overhead, and don't take heights in consideration, it would just be a pretty quick corner. Making it more like a real chicane when viewed from overhead would be a great addition.

[Lateralus]

In my opinion this thing would gain a lot by being a proper chicane, just with a big height change in it.

I disagree. I think the shape and design of that corner is great just the way it is. It's tough but full-throttle in the slower, grippier cars, but requires a lift or even a little brake in the faster ones.

[Gunn]

In my opinion this thing would gain a lot by being a proper chicane, just with a big height change in it.

If you look at it from overhead, and don't take heights in consideration, it would just be a pretty quick corner. Making it more like a real chicane when viewed from overhead would be a great addition.It's not trying to be a chicane and therefore it isn't failing at being one.

[AMB]

It's not trying to be a chicane and therefore it isn't failing at being one.

So what would you call it?

[Glenn67]

So what would you call it?

S's :shrug: chicanes are much tighter imo too.

Watched bits an pieces of Bathurst 1000 today, they had alot of problems with tyres delaminating which was put down to a large degree to curb hopping - one curb in particular.

LFS needs tyre damage in conjunctinon with tyre wear to make longer races more interesting.

Also you could noticably see that qualify setups had substantialy more camber then race sets. This again would be to reduce tyre damage and wear. The diference in qualify times to race times was 3 sec a lap which shows how much more conservative the race sets are over qualify sets. I don't believe wear alone is enough to simulate real race conditions irl as tyres get overheated they are much more prone to suffering damage.

And after 100+ laps the amount of marbles and rubish off the racing line was extreme.

Then there is damage...

Oh well I dream of the day these things might be simulated in LFS :tilt:

[hansonator69]

S's :shrug: chicanes are much tighter imo too.

Watched bits an pieces of Bathurst 1000 today, they had alot of problems with tyres delaminating which was put down to a large degree to curb hopping - one curb in particular.

LFS needs tyre damage in conjunctinon with tyre wear to make longer races more interesting.

Also you could noticably see that qualify setups had substantialy more camber then race sets. This again would be to reduce tyre damage and wear. The diference in qualify times to race times was 3 sec a lap which shows how much more conservative the race sets are over qualify sets. I don't believe wear alone is enough to simulate real race conditions irl as tyres get overheated they are much more prone to suffering damage.

And after 100+ laps the amount of marbles and rubish off the racing line was extreme.

Then there is damage...

Oh well I dream of the day these things might be simulated in LFS :tilt:

The cars were running about 6-8 degrees of negative camber on the front and 2-3 of negative at the rear to be exact. Glenn, what you dream of is what I dream of too. :thumb: The mirror's casing cracking then the whole thing falling off, paint and bodykit scrapage, tyre marks on the body, exploding tyres ripping holes in the bodykit, etc... and why don't we add the track too for more fun! :D