Anti-shortcutting with the InSim Relay

[Victor]

Ok this is a bit of an experiment.
We're running a demo host and I noticed people shortcutting around the chicane quite often. I wanted to fix this via an autox layout, but obviously a demo host cannot load those.
So to prevent people shortcutting there I added a "forbidden area" check on the insim relay that only worked on our host. This now forces racers who use the shortcut, to spectate.

Seeing this worked quite well, I have made it an option for everyone to toggle on or off. You can set the option on the insim relay setup page at lfsworld.
So if you want this anti shortcut check on your host, (connect your host to the relay and (http://www.lfsworld.net/?win=hosts&whichTab=insim_relay)) turn on this option.

So far there's just this one spot on Blackwood that is being checked. But I can do the same for more places, on any track.
Also I can apply different penalties for different shortcuts. One might be awarded a time penalty on one shortcut - on another one could be forced back to spectating.

Possible penalties :
Spectate
Drive Through
Stop and Go
+30 seconds
+45 seconds

THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD :
If there are any places that you think could do with such a shortcut, post about it here in the following manner (to save me a lot of work) :

-describe the situation with text.
-include a screenshot of the place where you think a check could be added. Try to indicate how large an area you think should be covered for the check (see example). I check circular areas.
-mention which track AND config this shortcut applies to. If it applies to multiple configs of one track, please mention all the configs.

If they seem logical, I can then add such places to the relay checker and see if that helps.
As I started this post off though, it's an experiment to begin with. I think it can work quite well, but I'm not sure if there'll be nasty side effects.

[blackbird04217]

Wow, this seems very interesting. I don't know if all deserve instant spectates so I was very intrigued by adding a time penalty... Sometimes you need to run off, not using it as a short cut but simply can't make the turn, and for that to end the race could be questionable at the least. Can't wait to see how this works out.

[anbiddulph]

nice idea!

[J@tko]

I was going to suggest the chicane at KY GP (off the oval) but its easy to just make a mistake and to cut it (well, the right hander at least - cutting the left hander will give you damage), therefore really giving you a penalty you don't deserve :shrug:

[Shotglass]

We're running a demo host and I noticed people shortcutting around the chicane quite often. I wanted to fix this via an autox layout, but obviously a demo host cannot load those.

not that id ever dare to critizise a dev but unless im very wrong demo hosts can run layouts as long as its only marshalls which do exactly what your work there does

[shiny_red_cobra]

Unfortunately this method assumes the driver is intentionally trying to take a shortcut, but what if someone hits me and forces me in the direction of the shortcut? Then my race is over? How is that fair?

I appreciate the effort to close the shortcuts, but I don't think clean racers will appreciate being forced to spectate because of an accident. Can't you guys just release a small patch with some extra barriers in the way of the shortcuts? I think that would be a more elegant solution to the problem.

[Victor]

not that id ever dare to critizise a dev but unless im very wrong demo hosts can run layouts as long as its only marshalls which do exactly what your work there does

very wrong you are :)

demo hosts don't recognise the /axload command at all.

[Tim NL]

Thanks Victor, super works great [NLR] #2 #3 and #4 server's have it now :thumb::thumb::thumb:

[Jakg]

Couldn't you say that you only get a penalty if your going over 50 KM/h or something?

[mcintyrej]

Couldn't you say that you only get a penalty if your going over 50 KM/h or something?

A much much much better idea. i think the original reason the gap was there is because its such a high speed entry and if you lock up on brakes or get into the grass your skidding for flying barrier mayhem.

You should find out what speed people gain an advantage and then lower it by 10mph or so and then add penalties.

Spectating is a bit harsh really - it should just be penalties.

[burnsy1882]

very wrong you are :)

demo hosts don't recognise the /axload command at all.

you don't need to use the /axload command to load a layout on the server. if you just save it as BL1_.lyt, move it to the layout folder, then start the server, it's automatically loaded with your single marshal where you need it.

[Victor]

Couldn't you say that you only get a penalty if your going over 50 KM/h or something?

i hadn't mentioned that in my OP, but yes, it's already checking minimum speed, though it's less than 50Km/h atm. It's 8.5m/s, or 30.6Km/h
Could raise it if that appears more convenient.

[Jakg]

...or outsmart me then :p

[danthebangerboy]

you don't need to use the /axload command to load a layout on the server. if you just save it as BL1_.lyt, move it to the layout folder, then start the server, it's automatically loaded with your single marshal where you need it.

I would say victor will know what can and cannot be done with LFS, after all, he did develop it! :nod:

[sgt.flippy]

Is it possible to make it lap dependable? So then you could show a warning first time it happens, if it happens again (not very likely to crash twice I think) a time penalty, and after 4-5 times spectate.

[Becky Rose]

Stealing a good but badly implemented idea straight from GTR2, how about allowing a driver a little grace by forgiving a first offence (or allow it once per ten laps or so for longer races), that way you allow for the odd mistake or avoidance action whilst debilitating it's use as a shortcut?

[Victor]

you don't need to use the /axload command to load a layout on the server. if you just save it as BL1_.lyt, move it to the layout folder, then start the server, it's automatically loaded with your single marshal where you need it.

ok even if that works then how do you suggest demo racers create that layout? ;)

[burnsy1882]

I would say victor will know what can and cannot be done with LFS, after all, he did develop it! :nod:
you don't think i didn't try it before posting the above? engage your brain before you talk. also, Victor does the websites and stuff, Scawen codes the game.

ok even if that works then how do you suggest demo racers create that layout?

yeah, i know they can't. just saying that any S2 user who's wanting to run a demo server, such as us at FG can use this way to automatically have the shortcut checker. your idea of using the relay is a very good idea though.

[Victor]

Stealing a good but badly implemented idea straight from GTR2, how about allowing a driver a little grace by forgiving a first offence (or allow it once per ten laps or so for longer races), that way you allow for the odd mistake or avoidance action whilst debilitating it's use as a shortcut?
-think i misread your post-

maybe that can be done like that. Though on some places it's really blatant shortcutting, like on the blackwood chicane.
It could be a variable for a specific area to check (ie. first offense - warn, second offense apply penalty).

[N I K I]

becky check pic in 1st post to see about what cutting victor is talking about ;)

[danthebangerboy]

look, on BL1 chicane THERE IS NO WAY ON EARTH people drive there by mistake. It's a blatant shortcut.
But on other places it could be different, hence my experiment notice and the note about different penalties.

and I don't know about gtr2 - never played it.

You havent seen me frantically trying to drive an xrt whilst hideously out of control then! :D

[breadfan]

i hadn't mentioned that in my OP, but yes, it's already checking minimum speed, though it's less than 50Km/h atm. It's 8.5m/s, or 30.6Km/h
Could raise it if that appears more convenient.

And how about comparing the (illegal) lap-time (when the shortcut was taken) with a (legal) lap-time (previous lap, best lap) and if the illegal time is less than the legal time, infraction would be applied.

Also you can compare positions. If a racer has gained position in the race by using the shortcut, he will be penalized.

[Victor]

i don't think i'll take it as far as checking laptimes. Checking position might be doable yes.

Anyway, if there are any areas that could do with a shortcut check, they can be posted about here and we'll see what can be done.
In the meantime, the option is there available for people to select if their host is connected to the relay and if they want the option active on their host. Even if it just checks blackwood, it might already be handy for some.

[duke_toaster]

When a driver gets a warning could they be told something like "WARNING : CUT TRACK" for a few seconds so they know? Probably would need some involvement from Scawen though.

[Deejayyaj]

nice very nice... no more shortcutting in Blackwood Chicane part of Demo....
Penalty for short cutting is good. Coz you just need to pass thru pit lane @ the speed of not higher than 80km/h to complete your penalty. So it will just add some time/sec. for one lap

But if passing there and get spectated, its hard to join again the race.
For example:

a 10 lap race then passing at that short cut and you are at 5th lap and placing 2nd position and get spectated, man, its hard to join again the race coz the driver will begin at last position and start at the 1st lap all over again.

thats just my opinion..

EDIT: Just want to add this,

If He/She Driver/Racer passed to that chicane over and over again... then its time to give a 3rd offense in the race. 3rd offense is equal to spectate.
Coz sometime to be straight... noobs or lets say beginners and the one who discovers that chicane short cut in blackwood does the thing over and over again specially in Demo....

I hope Victor as the Dev will fix this permanently soon... Thanks Devs.:thumb:

[Calvinaquino]

Excelent idea.
Maybe:
1st time = Warning
2nd time = (if 10 minutes or 5 laps havent passed, else it resets) Drive Through
3rd time = Disqualified

Either do this linearly (even if the guy did the Drive Through, next shortcut is a disqualify) or only allow disqualification if he hasnt done the drive through?

For the spinouts: IF he goes tru the shortcut and he loses a position, remove warning/pealty/disc.
that way you can check if he did on purpose or if he spun out.

[legoflamb]

if they are cutting at that spot on blackwood, then maybe they deserve that penalty. There is no excuse for driving through there while racing.Not only are they cutting the track but they might cause, and have, an incident on the other side when people are exiting the chicane.

[Inouva]

Or a better idea , put some barriers in that spot
How long can take to dev make a barriers in that spot for the track?
(Yes rebuilding the track , but only in that spot)

For the other thing , i think A directly +30 seconds penalty is correct

And dont come with "Avoid the Crash in front of you" if you are cleaver you know how to avoid the "Action" without cutting there

[Victor]

yes, eventually Eric should close that gap. This is just a 'patch' for now.

But the idea might be useful elsewhere _if it is needed_.
If it's not needed, then hurray for well designed tracks :)

[cmckowen]

Excelent idea.
1st time = Warning
2nd time = (if 10 minutes or 5 laps havent passed, else it resets) Drive Through
3rd time = Disqualified


This would be quite a good solution for the case where a driver has all 4 wheels on the dirt. Shouldn't ever happen unless there was a bump between 2 drivers. In that case more care should be taken in future. Would promote cleaner racing i believe.

Would that be viable for the future?

[Shotglass]

you don't need to use the /axload command to load a layout on the server. if you just save it as BL1_.lyt, move it to the layout folder, then start the server, it's automatically loaded with your single marshal where you need it.

that doesnt work and yes ive just tried it
however using s1 mode with a demo server setup works
although as vicc pointed out you cant create the layout yourself if youre a demo user... but it works

oh btw vicc since i havent been able to scream at you in irc for a while now ill do it here... since the last forum update the guest search has a captcha again

[BlueMile]

All I know is that it works like a dream, no more cutting :thumb:

[tikshow]

someone report that some month ago, why only now do you want do something?

[legoflamb]

Things take time, but then again don't let me or anyone else talk for the devs.

[e2mustang]

someone report that some month ago, why only now do you want do something?

I think the devs have enough thing to do at a time,but we can see victors activity,hes doing lot of stuff at once.And the things we dont see yet,scawen and eric works hard on it! To make a good job,it takes lot of time.

[dekojester]

Cool option - is it maybe possible to be able to have there be a setting to differentiate between "Public Racing" or "Event" server condition, and instead of automatically penalizing in "Event" mode, it adds a flag to a report or flags to an admin that someone cut so they can check it to see if time was actually gained, and can apply a penalty ?

Other than that, they system of warning before penalizing that was posted a few posts ago, and the system as a whole, gets a big +1 from me.

Thanks Victor for the good work !

d

[Calvinaquino]

Good idea deko but then all the servers would need an active person watching every car maybe?

And the +30 seconds penalty wont work i think. its time increase, nothing that will make the driver really "pay" for it.

Or, do it like a vote:
Driver goes off the track, triggers vote - Press 1 to penalize driver (like a kick vote).

We can mix the first time warning with the vote system to apply a Drive trough second time and disqualification third time?

[Becky Rose]

Regarding identifying shortcuts Victor, it might be wise to speak to Sam @ UKCT and have a look through some of the CTRA layouts, most of the custom layouts are in response to actual reports of persistent cutting problems.

I can think of a few, KY1 the corners just off the oval (the right, left, right, right), Fern Bay Gold the end of the lap, Kyoto GP the chicane, Aston North has a few though i'm not totally sure where.

Basically all the CTRA standard layouts are either anti-cut and implemented after reports of cutting from real server usage, or in a couple of places an attempt to reduce physics related randomness. So well worth checking out.

[CasseBent]

Though, in the case of the BL1 chicane, people should not be issued a warning. It's a far too blatant cutting spot and should result in action right away. Cheating once per 10 laps, is still cheating.

[AlKadenT]

I think this would be the easiest solution, you would be able to pass trough after an accident, but some slower, and there would be no cutting.

http://www.bilder-speicher.de/08090313305257.gratis-foto-hosting-page.html

[tikshow]

I think the devs have enough thing to do at a time,but we can see victors activity,hes doing lot of stuff at once.And the things we dont see yet,scawen and eric works hard on it! To make a good job,it takes lot of time.

you misunderstood me! :) i didn't want to tease the devs, i just wondering on this thing

[Doorman]

Are we all talking about the same 'cutting'? This the chicane before the home straight at Aston National and this illustrates what I consider cutting. A penalty of 5 seconds per infringement would soon see a difference in driving habits!
http://www.finnglish.co.uk/Stuff/cutting.jpg

[NotAnIllusion]

That specific 'cut' falls under a bit of a grey area as it depends on how the 'track' area is defined.
- As long as you have at least one (or two, depends) wheel(s) on the track it's not cutting
- If the 'track' includes kerbs, that's not cutting
- If the 'track' doesn't include kerbs, it is cutting

Personally I see it as two wheels on track+kerbs.

[Doorman]

Kerbs define the edge of the track. The track is the black stuff. No grey there. :shrug: Where do you draw the line? Track+kerb+green bit? Some would.

[sinbad]

Kerbs define the edge of the track. The track is the black stuff. No grey there. :shrug: Where do you draw the line? Track+kerb+green bit? Some would.

IRL they'd use that green stuff unless stewards told them not to, which in that instance, I doubt they would.

[AndroidXP]

I think driving on the green bit is generally considered fine (also in real racing). If there are kerbs, including green, then the wheels shouldn't go over them, so no touching grass unless the outer wheels are still on the track. If there are no kerbs, then two wheels should be on the track within the white lines.

Basically it's "use the kerbs, but if there are none or they're very thin you can go off track a bit" - at least IMO.

[Victor]

For the purpose of this thread, that is way too detailed. With insim i cannot possibly determine if people _just_ stayed within the white line or not.
So the shortcutting i'm talking about is of the more blatant type where you just drive through a gravel pit or cut a chicane, things like that.

[Danke]

I think this is a great idea. I'd favor a drive-through penalty over any other options. Although it would kind of stink to get a DT on the last lap of 1 hour+ race and get a DQ for not being able to serve it.

[Victor]

Regarding identifying shortcuts Victor, it might be wise to speak to Sam @ UKCT and have a look through some of the CTRA layouts, most of the custom layouts are in response to actual reports of persistent cutting problems.

I can think of a few, KY1 the corners just off the oval (the right, left, right, right), Fern Bay Gold the end of the lap, Kyoto GP the chicane, Aston North has a few though i'm not totally sure where.

Basically all the CTRA standard layouts are either anti-cut and implemented after reports of cutting from real server usage, or in a couple of places an attempt to reduce physics related randomness. So well worth checking out.

thanks, i'll ask sam if he can send the layouts to me so i can have a look.

[southamptonfc]

I think the runoff is a good idea and just like it would be on a normal circuit.

I think you should only get punished if you use it consistently or maybe more than once in case it was a genuine lockup or coming together which resulted in you going off. Otherwise people will be forced to drive back onto the track and turnaround which will cause trouble.

[Luke.S]

In real life if they went through there due to a lock up and gained a position they would have to let the person they passed back into that position. That could be implimented in LFS if they go through and don't give the position back they get a stop & go or a drive through.

[TRM.13]

Aston Cadet reversed:

You can cut a lot if you turn sooner than the last turn using the grass

[Huru-aito]

-describe the situation with text.
-include a screenshot of the place where you think a check could be added. Try to indicate how large an area you think should be covered for the check (see example). I check circular areas.
-mention which track AND config this shortcut applies to. If it applies to multiple configs of one track, please mention all the configs.

BL2R, people cut through the gravel trap in T1 because it's much faster and pretty much 0% risk.

BL2, people drive on the grass to get a wider entry to the corner after the back straight. Add two circles if you can't do it with one :)

[liquido]

please sorry my english.


have do you think about this.....


I´m in advice because i cut in the chicanne, in the next lap some body crash his car in front of me or againts my car... we go out of the road.... he is in advice and i got a free Drive Through.

EDIT:

I read the post 3 times... now i see it in other way. only Blackwood chicanne :$ ... and doing by these way.... no needs warning.

sorry for that I see a lot of pics with cars cuting and over all the road...firts time i think you are talking about cut all chicanne on every track. sorry

[duke_toaster]

What servers have this enabled?

[J@tko]

What servers have this enabled?
Any which are on the insim relay and have the option toggled on :thumb:

(It says in the OP)

[duke_toaster]

Does it make it clear or would I have to try some chicane jumping to find out?

[Victor]

it's not specifically indicated atm no.

[Victor]

BL2R, people cut through the gravel trap in T1 because it's much faster and pretty much 0% risk.

BL2, people drive on the grass to get a wider entry to the corner after the back straight. Add two circles if you can't do it with one :)

thanks yeah those are clear shortcuts. I'll probably make the second one with first a warning, then a time penalty, then specate (just added this functionality)
EDIT - it's added now. I'll make a nice overview at some point where all the checks are placed.

---

on that topic of variable penalties, i can now basically apply any order of penalties, per penalty type.
What that means is that for example you have two areas on a track where a slight shortcut can be beneficial. So they are similar shortcut areas. Cut short on the first one and you get a warning, cut short on the second and you get a time penalty. After that, if you shortcut on any of the two once more, you are spectated.

But as for another example, on one track like blackwood GP there is one blatant shortcut and one less beneficial one. These two shortcuts are of different types and so if you shurtcut the first you are spectated immediately. Shortcutting on the second one warns first, then applies a penalty, then specates.

These are just examples of what can be done atm.

[madbikes]

This can be a good approach.

I hope I'm not suggestion something very dumb, but wouldn't revert that very portion of Blackwood to something like one of the older versrions is better? Because there is no way you can cut throught the first chicane when everything around is walls (I'm pretty sure old LFSers know what I'm talking about).

[lil chris]

I race quite alot on demo servers and see the bl1 cut quite alot. I dont think a warning on the first run is good as people will still do it knowing they get 1 free pass to gain positions or better time. Iv seen and been past by who do this which is very annoying.
I have also seen people use it to gain a better time on first split to set record laps on the lfs lapper. If it was my server it would be instant spectate or pit to stop them registering the faster times.
Also if you use the excuse of it being a run off area, if the barrier covered all the way anyway you would be taken to a trip to space due to the physics :)

Good job with patching this! usually on servers with friends so cutters usually get a warning and kick anyway :thumb:

[AndroidXP]

I race quite alot on demo servers and see the bl1 cut quite alot. I dont think a warning on the first run is good as people will still do it knowing they get 1 free pass to gain positions or better time.If you read Victors post you'd notice that there way cutting is dealt with is entirely optional. Warnings can be given, but it's not a must. The BL1 chicane you mentioned is the same one that was listed as the prime example for an immediate no-warning penalty numerous times in this thread already.

:thumb:

[scipy]

Aston GP/GT/North and the reverse combinations.

[Unforgiven]

Aston GP/GT/North and the reverse combinations.

Is that actually faster. I can see its shorter but faster I doubt

[scipy]

Is that actually faster. I can see its shorter but faster I doubt

I wouldn't have posted it if it wasnt considerably faster.

[lil chris]

If you read Victors post you'd notice that there way cutting is dealt with is entirely optional. Warnings can be given, but it's not a must. The BL1 chicane you mentioned is the same one that was listed as the prime example for an immediate no-warning penalty numerous times in this thread already.

:thumb:

Yea I read that but was just sugesting that if a ran a server it would be on auto spectate from what I have seen, but after viewing more posts what I said has seems to be some what of a broken record. Sorry for repeating points but I mainly posted to show my support to the fix :thumb:

[Victor]

What servers have this enabled?

i've indicated it now on the hostlist at lfsworld. Hosts on the relay already had a clickable R. Hosts with the anti-shortcut option enabled have a clickable R+.

[Danke]

I know this is in the early stages, but could we get a map of zones and penalties at some point?

Thanks

[Victor]

yes the plan is exactly that. I'm just in the process of adding areas to the tracks now. I'll make a nice viewer later on that shows you a track map and its areas, colour coded to indicate penalty style and penalty type.

edit - i've put a list of clickable track links on the lfsworld hostlist and relay host-options page now.
Some examples :

http://www.lfsworld.net/desktop_images/relay_penalty_maps.php?track=BL1
http://www.lfsworld.net/desktop_images/relay_penalty_maps.php?track=BL2
http://www.lfsworld.net/desktop_images/relay_penalty_maps.php?track=FE1

[petercollins]

Why not just put a barrier there? There's plenty of room to weave back into the race between the bollards?

[Inouva]

Mmm , why dont use the Entire Hot lap system for all the Game , Single playar and multiplayer?

[Doorman]

Mmm , why dont use the Entire Hot lap system for all the Game , Single playar and multiplayer?
That was my suggestion only instead of invalidating the lap, dish out a penalty. But it got passed over. Maybe it's technically more difficult. :shrug:

[Victor]

Why not just put a barrier there? There's plenty of room to weave back into the race between the bollards?

This system just makes it simpler. If you want to put barriers there, go ahead. But as said earlier in the thread, on a demo host you cannot use autox objects. And this thing started out especially for a demo host, but maybe other hosts want to use it as well, on other tracks, so I'm expanding it.

Mmm , why dont use the Entire Hot lap system for all the Game , Single playar and multiplayer?

it's much too strict for online racing.

[Inouva]

it's much too strict for online racing.

And is perfect , If LFS aim to be a true Simrace , should work like that

Of course at the beginig many ppl will complay about the HLVC , but when learn how to Race and overtake and use the mirrors + camera ,the shortcutting it keep on the past

In argentina we have a fact

The best Things it´s learn in the worst way

[Calvinaquino]

That's a nice, hardcore idea there. but there wont be no distinction about who is intentionally shortcutting or if he spun in a curve. And imagine that, people pushing eachother's to the grass so the others can ge a penalty, giving them the advantage.

[Inouva]

That's a nice, hardcore idea there. but there wont be no distinction about who is intentionally shortcutting or if he spun in a curve. And imagine that, people pushing eachother's to the grass so the others can ge a penalty, giving them the advantage.

Thats my point , Realy ppl need to know how is the Mechanic of the race ,in the 80% of the LFS races , everyone rush and hit other in the first T1 to take the lead and dont care about others , dont have respect and dont know how the mechanic of race works. that mi pov

[wheel4hummer]

But I've had to go on the grass to avoid causing a wreck before. Why should one be penalized for avoiding an accident?

[Calvinaquino]

Thats the problem i see with some of it, when people accidentally or have to go trough the grass to avoid certain situations.

[chanoman315]

Victor, the DT thing on FE2 i find it unnecessary, the 2nd one.
Why? because if you hit the kerb you roll-fly-crash etc, besides there are tyres in there, and with the LFS Crash physics you blow suspension... :shrug:

[CasseBent]

HLVC + online racing = stupid. Lag would put you on the grass, in the "eyes" of the server and HLVC, several times in a race(afaik, Victor will correct me if I'm wrong). Plus, the problem is only in the chicanes and some turns and can we really turn off HLVC at certain spots?
It really doesn't sounds realistic at all, quite a bad idea in my eyes.

[geeman1]

And is perfect , If LFS aim to be a true Simrace , should work like that
Of course at the beginig many ppl will complay about the HLVC , but when learn how to Race and overtake and use the mirrors + camera ,the shortcutting it keep on the past
In argentina we have a fact
The best Things it´s learn in the worst wayBut reality is not black and white like that. Sometimes you have to drive on the grass to avoid crashed cars or if you make a mistake and end up going on the grass or hitting the wall. You don't get penalized for things like that on real races either...
This system is supposed to prevent blatant cutting, not make having races annoying. HLVC only works on hot laps because on hot laps there are no other cars on the track and the point of it is only to drive a fastest possible lap. On a hot lap if you drive on the grass, you either made a mistake or you are cutting so penalty is always on place, but on racing there are more reasons why you could end up there and it doesn't mean your race is over.

[johnfromsunnymull]

Love the idea, just it is going to get frustraiting when people crash into you, you career off the road and then you get the penalty or spectated.

I can tell you are going to get people who do this on purpose, as people crash on purpose.

[geeman1]

edit - i've put a list of clickable track links on the lfsworld hostlist and relay host-options page now.The only one I can agree with 100% is the one in BL1. It's the only one where you really have to drive there on purpose to hit the penalty area. All the others seem like you could drive on them by mistake or if someone nudges you. Especially on FE tracks it is really easy to hit the DT spots for reasons out of your own control.

[word.]

Here is a blatent shortcut on FE6 - you can gain significant time even with the tyres in the way.

[S14 DRIFT]

I think, guys, we have to balance possible time gain from cutting a corner, and the repercussions of doing so, as well as the location. It's all very well saying "Yesss lets slap these spec zones here, here and here" without thinking about it.

Take "word."'s example. Doing as described would either slow you down so much that the advantage was negated, or you'd wreck your car, crash or spin.
(does happen with the tyre barriers)

After all, that is a rally cross track. The idea is you can use the whole 'road', off track sections included. Have you even actually raced on that circuit with a field of 25 drivers? It's not pretty, I can guarentee you, and you'd crash the server with "Player X has been sent to spectate"

Taking "scipy"'s example, doing as expected would get such an amout of dirt on your tyres that you'd lose so much grip for the harpin at the end of the straight, or the chicane, depending on which roation you are on. If you outbraked yourself going into it, you have nowhere else to go, and be sent straight to spec. This is, of course, if you don't go flying over the ramps I mean curbs, either flying off into the adjacent gravel pit, or having gained some form of suspension damage.

Either way, the time you 'could' have gained would be negated by the result of doing so, whether this be damaging your car or getting dirt on your tyres.

I can't help feeling that once 'if' this system is fully implemented, everyone will have to RE-LEARN tracks, which may have already taken them months to perfect. I'm not saying people 'cut' tracks to gain time, but with the result of running wide on a corner meaning a free trip to specatate, you have to adjust your driving suitably. What's more, the idiotic drivers among us will end up pushing leading drivers into these zones for "l0lz".

Obviously I'm not telling you how to run your game, just think about whether certain places actually need it. The only place, in my mind, is that section of the BL circuit, and yet it should only be activated above 50Mph/80Kmph.

[AndroidXP]

That's why you make only the glaringly obvious ones insta-spec and the others give a warning/penalty first.

[Hyperactive]

Here's the FE1 shortcut. When you drive that config online everyone goes as near the tires as possible and as a result the tires disappear at some point and then people cut deeper. I'd guess it's the same in rev config as well. Although it needs to be said that it is easy to make a mistake ending up on that bit of grass, or be forced there because of other car...

[AndroidXP]

^ That's unfortunately one example where a penalty can be too easily applied to someone having an accident. The InSim Relay anti-shortcut is a nice and quick solution for glaringly obvious shortcuts, but cannot be applied to places with a high chance of an accident causing the cutting, even if it's an obvious shortcut to the human observer.

For a system to work pretty foolproof you need to define the cut areas like now and then later on the track (out of crash-range, so you can't slide into it after an accident) have a point of reference to check whether the cutter has actually gained any time. Someone who has crashed or had to evade will obviously not reach that point so quickly that he'd get any advantage from it.

[johnfromsunnymull]

Isn't a short cut classed as when you are all four wheels of the track? As long as two wheels are on the road then technically it isn't a short cut. Please, correct me if i am wrong.

[AndroidXP]

Yep. Though for example in the FE1 shortcut above people routinely go off track with all four wheels, especially once the tyres have been bumped away/vanished.

[johnfromsunnymull]

Yea i know what you mean, i have to admit i take that short cut but make sure i still have two wheels on the track so no one can call me a cheat :)

[Hyperactive]

On some occasions this whole anti-shortcutting thingie feels more like fixing the errors of the tracks by the hard way. Instead of fixing the actual cause of the error, like that Fe1 corner complex, the BL1 "hole on the wall" or the FE4 sand-shortcut, a more complex system is put into use with the new possible errors and short comings it may have, like the added randomness scripts and triggers always produce.

90% of these shortcuttings would most probably be easier to fix by making a list of those errors and sending that list to that person who does 3d for living...?

[J@tko]

Remember guys that non-Blackwood tracks can be edited by Vic for anti-cutting, they don't have to be on the relay.

[LFSn00b]

BL2R, people cut through the gravel trap in T1 because it's much faster and pretty much 0% risk.Also in BL2R people go on the grass in the exit at the gravel-> tarmac part, so they can go faster in the straight.

[Victor]

noone can read here can they?

[danthebangerboy]

noone can read here can they?

So it would seem. Autocross objects on demo servers, as you have said many times, doesn't work!

[J@tko]

noone can read here can they?
Demo racers havnt got BL2R ;)

[rediske]

Demo racers havnt got BL2R ;)

wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't tried it myself... :scratchch
since when aren't demo users allowed to go reverse?

[AndroidXP]

Since one of the latest patches they only have BL1 and BL2. The reverse configs have been disabled, probably due to the demo users having more than enough content anyway.

[DeadWolfBones]

As the admin of two endurance series, I'd like to see the penalties for these shortcuts be a little more customizable.

For instance, the first round of the Masters of Endurance season is at KY3, whose chicane problem has been discussed to death. It'd be great if we could penalize with a DT for EVERY time a car cuts that chicane (after the first warning) rather than warning->DT->spectate. Another option would be to escalate the penalty: warning->DT->SG->30s->45s, and then 45s thereafter.

In a 12 hour race having a car spectated after the 2nd or 3rd infraction isn't an ideal solution.

[r4ptor]

as The Admin Of Two Endurance Series, I'd Like To See The Penalties For These Shortcuts Be A Little More Customizable.


+1

[Victor]

As the admin of two endurance series, I'd like to see the penalties for these shortcuts be a little more customizable.

For instance, the first round of the Masters of Endurance season is at KY3, whose chicane problem has been discussed to death. It'd be great if we could penalize with a DT for EVERY time a car cuts that chicane (after the first warning) rather than warning->DT->spectate. Another option would be to escalate the penalty: warning->DT->SG->30s->45s, and then 45s thereafter.

In a 12 hour race having a car spectated after the 2nd or 3rd infraction isn't an ideal solution.

I can very easily adjust the penalty types yes (ie. remove or add a warning).
But I cannot do it on a per host level. But seeing there aren't many people using this for kyoto anyway, i might just change it for you when it's that time for your league to start.

I can also make cumulative penalties. Although I'm not sure about the 30 and 45 seconds ones, because I think they can only be applied once per race?
So perhaps there should be more of a DT and SG awarding going on. I can make that quite easily - a penalty check that just keeps awarding DT and/or SG. Open for discussion.
(maybe for your endu races, there could be a "must do DT or SG within X laps, or else ..." "or else what?" "good question" :) )

[S14 DRIFT]

Meh.. Sounds too complicated for it's own good :shrug:

[DeadWolfBones]

Thanks, Victor. We'll be getting back to you on it. :)

[Bean0]

*BUMP*

Doesn't seem to be working properly on FE1 at the corner towards the end of the lap with the 2 stacks of tyres.

I've just tested and watched UFRs having all 4 wheels on the grass and no penalties given.

Edit: Here...

http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=65657&d=1220772112

[imthebestracerthereis]

Sorry for the massive bump, better than me making my own.

Is the anti-shortcut still active, I played around with BL2 on demo and could not get mine to work. I checked online for other hosts that had it (Antik Racing #3), and it also did not work. Is there something I am missing or is it just 'deactivated'

Would be a good help if someone could fill me in. Thanks :thumbsup:

[Victor]

Have you enabled the shortcut checking option for your host, on the relay setup page? It is not automatically enabled when connecting a host with the relay.

I've just checked it on a host we run and it works there.

[imthebestracerthereis]

Yep, I enabled it on the host via lfsworld, when I join the demo host on BL2 I get the welcome message that I specified but still no anti-shortcut checks. :(

[Victor]

problem fixed. Thanks for the report.

[imthebestracerthereis]

Thank you Victor :hug:

[imthebestracerthereis]

Sorry to bump, but I noticed that even if connected to the anti-shortcut, the R does not become R+

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3452/halpy.png

Thanks
-D

[Victor]

fixed