I feel for LFS to move foward it needs some real tracks

[Simon Savage]

I have been playing LFS for a few months now and have loved it.
However when im going round Aston or Blackwood i just wish that i could drive an FXR round Silverstone or Spa, or Theglen anything really.

I feel that its a real disadvantage that LFS has against Rfactor and GTR
Im not sure what the costs are about building real tracks in games i know there is a fee or major tracks.
However there are so many tracks for Nascar 2003 and Rfactor that people have made themselves and surley they dont have to pay anyone for it.
I realise that the developers really dont want the source code or the net code to fall into reivals hands and i understand that. but if they could create a track building programme this would be a huge boost to the game.
I have got a lot of my fellow sim racers into the game but the sceptics play the game and ask "are there any real tracks" i awnser no and there is a sigh from them like well thats it then i'll go back to Rfactor or Nascar 2003 etc

So first do all real tracks want a fee if they are put into the game or just the major ones?

Second would it be possible to build a programme that will let people do tracks without revealing LFS secrets?

what do you guys think and know on the matter?

[Vykos69]

rfactor has the same amount of real tracks as LFS has real cars, afaik.

[Simon Savage]

http://www.green-flag.com/pictures/GRAB_007.JPG
Yeah like this one

And these
http://www.bhmotorsports.com/RF/downloads/4607
this is my point they are not major tracks so could LFS stick them on for free

[Vykos69]

well, those are both unofficial addons with a quality of design (especially the Nordschleife) which are way below, what i call "buyworthy". rfactor itself hasnt got real tracks, except one maybe, and the PCC-Mod is called mod, because it's a mod, and not original content of the game. So please stick to the facts, or write it in other words:
e.g.rfactor is cool, cause you can use addon tracks, which you cant in LFS

got it?

BTT: I love a very good fantasytrack more than a WIP Mother which is quality wise below GPL-releaseyear standard.

[Simon Savage]

ive played Rfactor at a freinds a lot not liked it as much as LFS
i never said it was cool that was a lie!:razz:
you must agree though if they can build tracks for the game like Brands or The Norris ring for free it would be a bonus

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I don't really understand what all the hype is about real tracks. We're still racing a simuator and the experience is the same right? As long as the physics etc are great I don't really care where I run the cars. Real cars would be higher on the priority list in my books, and that directly affects the experience more than a track would because the virtual car is what's responding to your interactivity. Either way though, the physics is what makes a sim for me regardless of the skin on top of it.

[Don]

you must agree though if they can build tracks for the game like Brands or The Norris ring for free it would be a bonus
are you sure you want such bonuses?
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9988/charade212qq.jpg
http://forum.rscnet.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=342047&d=1136933280
http://forum.rscnet.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=341665&d=1136807546

[Hyperactive]

Well, real tracks are real tracks. Having some "small" and "unknown" real tracks would fit perfectly in LFS. But I guess they need more work than building a fantasy one. And which one to have?

One way to have good quality in addon tracks would be to make it frustratingly (new word) hard to use the editors and get the track running. Like the way you make tracks for GPL. N00bs can't handle it but skilled track makers can make miracles with those :x

[deggis]

One way to have good quality in addon tracks would be to make it frustratingly (new word) hard to use the editors and get the track running. Like the way you make tracks for GPL. N00bs can't handle it but skilled track makers can make miracles with those :x
Or implement some kind of system to LFSWorld that a new addon track needs a authorization from the devs to get it run online. Or something. :shrug: That would keep the quality very high (maybe too high).

[Hankstar]

:nod:
The "oh my god how the hell do you do this" factor works well in GPL's case, as only the most dedicated fans can be stuffed making tracks for it. It's a long, painstaking process and a right PITA :D That being said, the count is now (with only about 10% fantasy tracks) +400 :O Also, every last tool and utility used by GPL track (and car) editors has been created by fans and not released by the game's producers, so it's very much been a labour of love (or obsession) by the community.

Maybe, one day in the future, the LFS devs will release mod tools but it won't be soon, that much has been made clear. I'd love to see tracks like Lime Rock, Falkenberg, Adelaide, Bathurst, Brands Hatch etc in LFS but LFS is still a WIP. I would much rather see LFS completed before any mod tools are released :nod: IMHO, that is more important right now than real tracks or the ability to include them.

Slightly OT: I've also heard that rFactor's popularity is being adversely affected because there are so many mods out there and only a few are of high quality ... but I don't play rF so that's only what I've heard..

[Hallen]

The point of having real tracks is obvious... you get to race on the same tracks as the ones you go to in the real world. Plus, if you ever do get to track your real car, you could practice first (get to know the track anyway). It won't make the racing any better or worse, that is definitely true.
I miss having them, but would not sacrifice the quality of the tracks we have now for more "real" tracks.
This is dreaming for sometime way in the future, but there are a lot of tracks that get used for regional SCCA events here in the US. It would be cool to have an SCCA module with a bunch of those tracks plus some of the car models used by the SCCA. (Please don't get me wrong, I am very satisfied with what we have now. :smileypul )

Of course this has been discussed many times in the past. The dev's are on the right path now and these discussions are not going to change that anytime soon.

[vari]

Real this and real that. If someone builds blackwood does it make it any better?

To me it's just a matter of design, doesn't have to be built since it doesn't improve it. Hermann Tillke makes worse tracks (boring) than Eric anyway :D It's the same thing with cars, I doubt that someone drives MRT and RA exclusively just because theyre real?

Sarcasm aside, I wouldn't mind seeing some of the true classics (because of the design, not because they're real) though but it's not that big deal to me.

[tinvek]

Well, real tracks are real tracks. Having some "small" and "unknown" real tracks would fit perfectly in LFS.

if they are unknown then whats the advantage over fantasy tracks?

lets be honest if someone had changed the scenery surounding blackwood (is that right name?) and told you it was "tchyzchol race way" from eastern russia most of us wouldnt have a clue :tilt:

posssibly given the one name that keeps coming up, what we do want is the ultimate challenging circuit, 14 miles 147 corners up and down ideally set in a german forest.

now im sure this could be developed given time as a fantasy circuit but do you really want to spend 7 mins on one lap, imagine if you have a first lap shunt, crawl 14 miles or go direct to pits and be about 1/4 hour behind

id have thought a fantasy track about 6 miles long with the more famous parts of that other track copied would be better and the same could be done for other tracks eg how about "slitherstone" a large, wide mostly flat track with very fast bends and 1 mickey mouse section, "copewell perk" a smaller version of our 6 mile fantasy track with lots of gradients, " seconda railway" fast track, sandy run offs with a very wicked "corkscrew" type corner, you get the idea:thumb:

[Boris Lozac]

Maybe the Fifth gear crew could give the rights to use their test track for free, or some small amount of money.. I really love their test track, and it would be great for comparison with the show..
If it's up to me, i would like LFS to stay closed for any kind of addons and modifications, till S3. Even then, i wouldn't like to be totally opened. I would prefer that Eric do one real track, say every 4, 5 months, and charge it how much it takes( to cover licence price) because man is brilliant. I would really pay the amount of money as much as comunnity agrees on, for Eric's version of some famous track.

[Hyperactive]

Or implement some kind of system to LFSWorld that a new addon track needs a authorization from the devs to get it run online. Or something. :shrug: That would keep the quality very high (maybe too high).

That would require way too much effort from the devs, imho, of course. :shy:


Getting real tracks would just add to the experience. Driving XRR at AS4R isn't just as nice as driving XRR at Keimola or Bathurst could be. Mentally.

It is the same thing you can have when you are watching an F1 race for example. You can see that the drivers take the same line in that one corner as you just did few hours ago in your sim. It would be just nice, add to the experience.

...And that would allow us to compare some physics and stuff between LFS and RL.:x

[Blowtus]

don't see what 'real' tracks has to do with anything myself. Quality tracks however, that's important. Each to their own I guess. Knowing I'm simming on a 'real' track design doesn't aid my experience in any way, it's all racing.

[Hankstar]

Real stuff isn't vital at all, but racing at Mt Panorama in XRRs would just rule :nod:

[Vain]

I think for S3 LFS should do the same as with it's cars. Take existing tracks and move parts of them into the game, just too few to be lawsuited to hell ;) .
There are so many great corner-combinations, tricky turns and interesting sections out there that it's a pity LFS has so few of them.

Vain

[micha1980de]

a horrible tought flashing by:

(there's no real track because we would find out how the REAL physics and the simmed physics differ.)

huarrr (frightened)

[Blowtus]

How would real tracks help you find that out? Cars don't respond differently on different tracks...

[Cue-Ball]

That's the main reason I'd like to see a real track in LFS: comparison between the sim and real life. Of course, this would require painstaking attention to detail not only with the track, but with the car (exact suspension geometry, tire pressure, weight, corner balancing, etc). Not to mention you would require tons and tons of data from the track. Not just insim type data, but ambient temp, wind, track temp, track surface grip at different points, dirt/rubber on the track, etc.

Even if you had a real track and car in LFS, ALL of those factors would have to be correct to get a comparison to real life.

[Boris Lozac]

a horrible tought flashing by:

(there's no real track because we would find out how the REAL physics and the simmed physics differ.)

huarrr (frightened)

Please Micha... stop with those noncence posts please.. :really:

[Gunn]

Real tracks won't improve my LFS experience one iota. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

[Hankstar]

I'd just see RL tracks as a bonus. I won't be disappointed at all if SEV decide to stick with fictional tracks or not release any mod tools - I have no skill in that area anyway :shrug: The stuff we have now is great! Any game that can keep my interest for nearly 3 years - despite my tiny attention span - must be doing something right :nod:

[deggis]

Maybe the Fifth gear crew could give the rights to use their test track for free, or some small amount of money.. I really love their test track, and it would be great for comparison with the show..
If it's up to me, i would like LFS to stay closed for any kind of addons and modifications, till S3. Even then, i wouldn't like to be totally opened. I would prefer that Eric do one real track, say every 4, 5 months, and charge it how much it takes( to cover licence price) because man is brilliant. I would really pay the amount of money as much as comunnity agrees on, for Eric's version of some famous track.
That would be easy to do by the community. All we need is a huge car park.

[poirqc]

Personnaly, i don't really care about real tracks or not. What would be interesting, IMHO, would be a free drive mode in a city or some 25 - 30 miles, exotic sinuous "one way" road.

I really like this game but i really don't care about doing a track one second faster or slower. I get bored running around in circle after a while. Being able to go everywhere is alway fun.

I know ill get bashed for this, but i think the city in NFS:(the new version on xBox360) is fun to drive around.

Bear in mind i'm not comparing LFS to NFS. Far from it. I really like the road cars in LFS, i think it would be fun to drive them in street condition. :)

I guess it's a matter of personnal taste.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Personnaly, i don't really care about real tracks or not. What would be interesting, IMHO, would be a free drive mode in a city or some 25 - 30 miles, exotic sinuous "one way" road.

I really like this game but i really don't care about doing a track one second faster or slower. I get bored running around in circle after a while. Being able to go everywhere is alway fun.

I know ill get bashed for this, but i think the city in NFS:(the new version on xBox360) is fun to drive around.

Bear in mind i'm not comparing LFS to NFS. Far from it. I really like the road cars in LFS, i think it would be fun to drive them in street condition. :)

I guess it's a matter of personnal taste.

I'd agree with this!

Even the NFS part, that city IS cool - no matter what the game is like, objectively, the city is well done and deserves credit. Think of the amount of work it would be to plan / create a detailed city like that! Very cool IMHO.

Racing from A to B is fun too I understand what you're saying. *cough* rallypack... *cough*

[Boris Lozac]

That would be easy to do by the community. All we need is a huge car park.

I was reffering to Fifth gear, not Top gear..
But offcourse, i created a thread, for a bigger autocross/car park arena, to be in full S2.. We would have more freedom creating layuots, and we could replicate the Top gear track, which would be very cool, if done accuratelly.

[J.B.]

I'm surprised how many people say that real tracks wouldn't add anything to the experience for them. I definately would enjoy racing on the real tracks that I have often watched races on on TV or visited live or even driven on.

To me it seems clear that if you sim race at a place that you know in real life this can only add to the immersion and motorsport atmosphere. I'm guessing but maybe you people who don't care about real tracks have more of a gaming/simming backround than a motorsport enthusiast backround? Maybe real tracks mean nothing to you because you can't relate to them in any way? :scratchch

Another example would be flight sims. How much would people care about MSFS if you couldn't fly routes on a virtual earth to places that you can relate to from real life experiences? I reckon a lot less.

That said, there isn't really a solution to the quality problem. The LFS team is too small to spend time with certifying mods and I don't see them making enough money to pay for licenses to make them themselves. So I doubt we will see any changes soon especially since Scawen himself said quite a while ago that he wasn't really interested in real tracks.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I'm guessing but maybe you people who don't care about real tracks have more of a gaming/simming backround than a motorsport enthusiast backround? Maybe real tracks mean nothing to you because you can't relate to them in any way? :scratchch

That seems fair. I love motorsport however I choose not to subscribe to cable TV and therefore don't have access to follow it much. Plus just don't have the time, the time I DO get goes into competing "virtually" lol
Maybe if I frequented RaceCity Speedway here in Calgary all the time (with a car I wish I had: SRT-4), then I could see having that track in LFS would add to immersion. BUT: Seriously here, maybe it's different in Europe, I don't know... How many people take their cars to well known tracks regularly??? How many people in the LFS kingdom (yes! kingdom!) actually participate IRL motorsport?

Another example would be flight sims. How much would people care about MSFS if you couldn't fly routes on a virtual earth to places that you can relate to from real life experiences? I reckon a lot less.

Good point. That would be silly in MSFS wouldn't it. But then flight has much more of an exploratory function to it in terms of sightseeing! People pay money just to take a short flight to see things they can't see on the ground. Therefore that's much more applicable in MSFS (or XPLANE, whatever) since people don't go racing to sightsee. There's no "VFR" in racing!

[Boris Lozac]

I myself, would love to have real life tracks of course.. But my atitude is not like, "let's open the game, so we can all create tracks".. I know that these damn licence issues are preventing Eric to create some real tracks, because it is illegal, but i would also like, when it comes to that, that LFS is modable, that there is some system that valuate the tracks users created, and only one is sellected, like some competition. ALSO, i would like that, when someone makes a track, you have to send it to the devs, and they implement some code, that you can use online only that version, so there is no like thousands tracks, and you can't find anyone online. You see my point here?
Basically, only the best tracks would be selected, and allowed by devs, to be used in LFS(online) by implementing some security code, or whatever, so you can only use that version online... What you think of this?

[SamH]

I myself, would love to have real life tracks of course.. But my atitude is not like, "let's open the game, so we can all create tracks".. I know that these damn licence issues are preventing Eric to create some real tracks, because it is illegal, but i would also like, when it comes to that, that LFS is modable, that there is some system that valuate the tracks users created, and only one is sellected, like some competition.

I'm essentially in agreement with you. Long term, it would be NICE to be able to race Brands Hatch etc in LFS. I can see how it could all quickly become too much downloadCandy. I don't have rFactor, so I haven't any experience with representative or fantasy tracks, but the screenshots posted here are toe-curling.

I would say, though that people shouldn't underestimate the technical abilities of those in the LFS community by suggesting that all efforts to reproduce tracks would result in ALL bad results. Everything I've learned of the community leads me to believe that, within our ranks are some people with extraordinary capabilities. There is everything here that would be needed, to create the perfect add-on track kit. LONG term, of course. I wouldn't ask for a radical change in direction before the end of S3. The business plan is fixed, and I've signed up for it to S2 so far, and will go S3 when that comes along.

My friends and I play UT occasionally, and some of the add-on maps are exceptionally good. There are some awful ones out there, but the best ones tend to float to the top where they receive the community's recognition. I presume the same can be said for the tracks in rFactor, and would be so in LFS.

With this in mind, why say NO to real tracks, if such a thing were possible? If you don't want to race real tracks, I can't imagine you'd be forced to do so. The option NOT to would always be present.

If someone were willing (and I just know they would) to obsess about reproducing an accurate representation of a real track, why prevent? First on my list would definitely be the Monaco GP track. Street circuit = no licence to pay, surely, and would be a good test of feasibility. LONG term, of course.

[farcar]

are you sure you want such bonuses?
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9988/charade212qq.jpg
http://forum.rscnet.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=342047&d=1136933280
http://forum.rscnet.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=341665&d=1136807546

Ha! What a great illustration of community mods gone bad. People, we don't want LFS to turn out like this. Even after S3 is released.
It's enough to make you sick, even before you start thinking about other problems community made tracks bring, like the dilution of server populations when hundreds of tracks become available.

Having said that, altough I know why and completely understand why it can't happen, I'd love to see quality real life tracks in LFS.

Anyone who says they wouldn't is of their rocker. :razz:

[mrfell]

If someone were willing (and I just know they would) to obsess about reproducing an accurate representation of a real track, why prevent? First on my list would definitely be the Monaco GP track. Street circuit = no licence to pay, surely, and would be a good test of feasibility. LONG term, of course.

Is that true?

[Gunn]

I'm guessing but maybe you people who don't care about real tracks have more of a gaming/simming backround than a motorsport enthusiast backround? Maybe real tracks mean nothing to you because you can't relate to them in any way? :scratchch

Lol.

[tinvek]

Maybe the Fifth gear crew could give the rights to use their test track for free, or some small amount of money.. I really love their test track, and it would be great for comparison with the show...

if you mean the circuit with radar corner etc and view of the sea
then here it is

http://angleseycircuit.com/circuit.htm

about 6 miles as crow flies from my house, due to be changing soon as being redeveloped and rather than just tacking a simple loop on for more length they're redoing it all to make the extra length be in charector with rest of circuit.

these guys are publicity hungry and would be one of the circuits most likely to allow their use in a game for free

p.s. its an excellent track for your road car and has a ridiculas amount of track days each year

[keiran]

Liscense fees are way out of reach for the devs. Big companys like codemasters and sony will fight over these things to have exclusive rights to that track. They spend crazy money on them.

I'm happy enough with what we got. You got to remember by S3 we will probaly have a whole new graphics engine etc. So would people really want to go through doing everything again ?? I for one wouldn't like to have to update all cars and tracks to work.

People need to remeber that there isn't really such a thing as 'track builder' software. All the tracks will be some sort of 3D mesh and will still be as complicated as making a car if not more depending on how the game works.

Keiran

[nikimere]

Fees for the "famous" tracks are expensive but there are tracks that would give licences for free because they would like the publicity. It could also give LFS alot of publicity if these tracks ran simulators with "their" track on race days.
I cannot see any reason why it cannot be done. I'm not saying do it now but maybe for Xmas or S3 :)

[J.B.]

Lol.

Care to explain your amusement?

[tristancliffe]

I think most of us in the world of sim racing have at least some interest in motorsport. I'm a big fan of most types, and yet I don't see a great deal of value in actually having real tracks. It might look more attractive to a new buyer, but in terms of racing quality and immersion what REAL difference does it make if your on a real track or a made up track? The racing will be just as good, if not better on a made up track, it's cheaper and less prone to inaccuracies.

[mctav]

I'm not a big fan of real tracks unless they are something different from the usual. How many games have silverstone etc. I think the TOCA series should be comended for producing tracks that we haven't seen before. For example the Austrailian touring car tracks are fantastic in Toca Race Driver. Also they put in KNOCKHILL! The only major race track in Scotland. I loved that because when I came back from racing at knockhill I put into practice all the lines I had been taught whilst there.

So yeah...it doesn't add much but it is cool if you can race on a circuit you've driven on. I'd rather they concentrated on making awesom original circuits that wouldn't get made in the real world.

[Simon Savage]

Another pro for real tracks is racing drivers use games to test there before they get to the track for real.
Many Nascar drivers use Nascar 2003 to learn tracks before they race there.
My mate Ali who used to race legends used GTR in the morgan to practace Donington and more racing drivers means more publisity

[Madman_CZ]

real tracks or not it doesnt really make any difference to me. It is true that real tracks would be a good addition to lfs but it is not an essencial one, if personally find real tracks booring now, ive been siming since the f1 97 days on the psx and in every sim that came afterwards the tracks were the same.. it just got a bit booring, thats not to say i dont like them tho completely. Who can dislike Spa or Suzuka.. the insane elevations of Bathurst or the narrow and tight Monaco.. to me physics and the experience is whats important and thats what i get from lfs now... if i want eau rouge i play aston cadet reversed (chicane uphill kinda similar :D) if i want monaco any South City track will do and if i want suzuka well ok that 1 is hard but guess kyoto has some nice layouts...

so u see i am satisfied... :)

mad

[AK-Chester]

are you sure you want such bonuses?
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9988/charade212qq.jpg
http://forum.rscnet.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=342047&d=1136933280
http://forum.rscnet.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=341665&d=1136807546 :D Thanks... but no thanks!

I couldn't care less if a track (or car) exists irl, as long as it's quality work and fun to drive.

[nikimere]

what REAL difference does it make if your on a real track or a made up track?
It's about selling LFS and it is also another way of getting publicity. What circuit is gonna have their track in a great game and not use that to their advantage?

[SamH]

Re: Street circuit = no licence to pay

Is that true?

I can't think how you can actually sue, or hold liable for monies, a person or entity that digitally emulates a section of roadway in a city (eg. the Monaco circuit). I'm trying to think of a scenario where it might be feasible, but I'm drawing a blank.

In copyright law, architects cannot sue photographers for photographing something placed visually in the public domain. Photographing a person is a different story.

[SamH]

It's about selling LFS and it is also another way of getting publicity. What circuit is gonna have their track in a great game and not use that to their advantage?

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3742

Picture the scene where LFS includes Brands Hatch. Around Brands Hatch are advertising billboards. Around its representation in LFS are the same boards, with the same advertising. Wouldn't this just be the ideal combination of sponsorship and realism? An additional realism in LFS, and an extra selling point for Brands Hatch.. "not only does your ad get seen by everyone on race day, at the track and watching on TV, but also every day of the week in the superbly popular multiplayer racing simulation, Live For Speed.."

If I were the owners of Brands Hatch, I'd be falling over myself to get track data and billboard dimensions to the LFS Devs in the hope they'd include it in S3. Perhaps I'm stupid, but it seems to me like the perfect marriage.

[nikimere]

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3742

Picture the scene where LFS includes Brands Hatch. Around Brands Hatch are advertising billboards. Around its representation in LFS are the same boards, with the same advertising. Wouldn't this just be the ideal combination of sponsorship and realism? An additional realism in LFS, and an extra selling point for Brands Hatch.. "not only does your ad get seen by everyone on race day, at the track and watching on TV, but also every day of the week in the superbly popular multiplayer racing simulation, Live For Speed.."

If I were the owners of Brands Hatch, I'd be falling over myself to get track data and billboard dimensions to the LFS Devs in the hope they'd include it in S3. Perhaps I'm stupid, but it seems to me like the perfect marriage.

I dont think you'd get Brands Hatch in LFS... Jonathan Palmer and co. would want alot of money for a licence for that track.

[sinbad]

Re: Street circuit = no licence to pay



I can't think how you can actually sue, or hold liable for monies, a person or entity that digitally emulates a section of roadway in a city (eg. the Monaco circuit). I'm trying to think of a scenario where it might be feasible, but I'm drawing a blank.

In copyright law, architects cannot sue photographers for photographing something placed visually in the public domain. Photographing a person is a different story.

"Cote d'Azure" circuit in Gran Turismo 3 was just that (Monaco street circuit). I suppose licenses for street courses can be worked around if you are prepared to name the circuit something else.

[SamH]

I dont think you'd get Brands Hatch in LFS... Jonathan Palmer and co. would want alot of money for a licence for that track.

Sadly, I think you're probably right. Not that it's a bad concept, but that history has shown a lack of investment on the part of the "club". I hope they sort it out. It's such a shame to see British motorsport suffocating under the weight of its belief in its own immortality.

[tinvek]

the other side of argument is that by using fantasy tracks, the devs can ensure the tracks provide good racing

[Fordman]

The problem you have nowadays is that everybody wants to be paid for everything. For the people that actually own the track, they see that supplying the tracks dimensions, elevation points etc etc as a selling point. Obviously they understand that people want to be able to race Brands, Snetty, Silverstone etc etc in Games, so charge an absolute fortune for the game developers to aquire a license.

Its wrong I know, as these to companies "should" be working together. like I scratch your back if you scratch mine sort of thing.

Same with Cars. Now alot of people complained that **cough NFSU cough ** didnt have damage model in them. Well thats because the Car Manufactuers didn't want to see there cars damaged :shrug: Whats the point of that? So I am guessing it will be the same with LFS.

At least this way ( fictional cars and fictional tracks ) the devs are in every right to do with them what they please, which in turn gives us a sense of realism. I mean, would u like to drive say a real car around LFS with no damage model? didn't think so.

Last point on the real tracks issue. If real tracks started to be apart of LFS, then how many threads would there be with people saying "This elevation is wrong, this corner is to sharpe, this that, the other " With Eric's designed tracks, we can just look in amazment and enjoy the ride.

[SamH]

"Cote d'Azure" circuit in Gran Turismo 3 was just that (Monaco street circuit). I suppose licenses for street courses can be worked around if you are prepared to name the circuit something else.

Yep, I guess if they'd called it the "F1 Monaco Grand Prix Circuit", they may have fallen foul of Bernie. If they bought all the other circuit licences, it might have been a nice relief for them not to have to splash out for the Monaco track. All they had to do was rename it. I'd have no problem racing on the "LFS Monaco Circuit" or even "LFS Goes To Monte Carlo", since Monaco is Monaco, like London is London. Who's gonna sue?

[tinvek]

of course when you think about it the info about elevations, gradients, distances etc in the uk at least are not the intelectual property of the circuits but in fact if they actually belong to anyone it is the ordinance survey, i assume you could even extract the info from a sufficient hi res google earth image though i've noticed their spot elevation figures can be off a bit

[Fordman]

I'd have no problem racing on the "LFS Monaco Circuit" or even "LFS Goes To Monte Carlo", since Monaco is Monaco, like London is London. Who's gonna sue?

Every Bugger out there that wanted to, thats the problem with today's world. You only need to sneeze in the wrong direction for somebody to pull a law suit on you.

I bet you would have to pay just for using the word Monaco, won't suprise me :)

In the end, I think what this all boils down to is cost, and beleive me to, it will cost a shed load just to incorporate 1 track, let alone anymore. Companies like Codies have millions to push into these sort of things. SC and Co doesn't, and to be honest, I am glad.

[nikimere]

In the end, I think what this all boils down to is cost, and beleive me to, it will cost a shed load just to incorporate 1 track, let alone anymore. Companies like Codies have millions to push into these sort of things. SC and Co doesn't.

How would it cost alot? You will get free licences from tracks that aren't as famous. Only costs involved are getting videos and photos of textures and the circuit.

[Fonnybone]

I don't really care about the tracks being real or not personally, as long
as they are realistic. No NFS floating in a neon land kinda stuff thank you.
So far, LFS has very realistic tracks and who knows, they could very
well be part of actual roads we don't know of. There WAS this thread
about where Blackwood was...notice the sign on the overpass ;)

As for cars, there could be a compromise. If LFS had a few generic shaped
cars where the whole body could be skinned, the community could make
look-a-likes. Although the XR has been dressed in many suits, some
looking quite close to actual cars, there are issues with the rear
lights/plate making it close to impossible to make it look like anything but
an XR. If these details could be skinned over, the possibilities would be
much greater. Imo of course.

[micha1980de]

Please Micha... stop with those noncence posts please.. :really:

1. you don't have the source. So you can't tell if the physics are really that accurate as they're praised to be.
2. Since you can't comply to 1 stop telling me to post "nonCenCe".

pff...

[Boris Lozac]

1. you don't have the source. So you can't tell if the physics are really that accurate as they're praised to be.
2. Since you can't comply to 1 stop telling me to post "nonCenCe".

pff...

It's not a question if it is accurate or not.. Of course it is not accurate as the real life, what do you think?? Simulations only try their best to be as real life.
And also other factors are there to consider... You would push in a simulation more than the best real life driver maybe would, and so it can never be identical..
But, your "reason" why there is no real life tracks in LFS, is just.... i don't know..

[SamH]

But, your "reason" why there is no real life tracks in LFS, is just.... i don't know..

I do. His implication is that LFS physics would be uncovered as being poor. It was a nonsense post because, as has rightly been pointed out many times over, the cars (with 2 exceptions) are fictional, as are all of the tracks. So his post can't be based on any meaningful evidence, and therefore can only be interpreted as unnecessarily inflamatory/argumentative.

:smileypul

[micha1980de]

...your "reason" why there is no real life tracks in LFS, is just.... i don't know..

Read my first post and the bulb should give some light...

[Boris Lozac]

I do. His implication is that LFS physics would be uncovered as being poor. It was a nonsense post because, as has rightly been pointed out many times over, the cars (with 2 exceptions) are fictional, as are all of the tracks. So his post can't be based on any meaningful evidence, and therefore can only be interpreted as unnecessarily inflamatory/argumentative.

:smileypul

Exactly... but not one single game has perfect physics, so other games physics are uncovered long time ago for that matter.. ;)

[micha1980de]

I do. His implication is that LFS physics would be uncovered as being poor. It was a nonsense post because, as has rightly been pointed out many times over, the cars (with 2 exceptions) are fictional, as are all of the tracks. So his post can't be based on any meaningful evidence, and therefore can only be interpreted as unnecessarily inflamatory/argumentative.

:smileypul

How do you come to this conclusion?

...It was a nonsense post because, as has rightly been pointed out many times over...

Pointed out by who? The users? Some physician?
So who, except the devs, has the basis to tell if lfs is doing the job right?
To be sarcastic, i'd have to say that it isn't "complete" (not refering to the alpha state)and therefore it can't be "correct" and will never be.

[SamH]

How do you come to this conclusion?

How can you not come to this conclusion?

Pointed out by who? The users? Some physician?
So who, except the devs, has the basis to tell if lfs is doing the job right?
To be sarcastic, i'd have to say that it isn't "complete" (not refering to the alpha state)and therefore it can't be "correct" and will never be.

No it isn't complete. Yes, Scawen has said his next project is the physics. No, this has absolutely nothing to do with you being deliberately abbrasive and obstructive.

There's no need for you to undermine confidence in LFS by references to the physics engine. It's a work-in-progress. There is no attempt to deceive users, or fool them into thinking that the game physics are perfect by excluding anything "real", which is most definitely how your original post reads.

The explicit intention of the Devs is to create "THE BEST" online racing sim. I personally consider that they're totally on course, whether the physics are imperfect at this stage or not.

[J.B.]

I think most of us in the world of sim racing have at least some interest in motorsport. I'm a big fan of most types, and yet I don't see a great deal of value in actually having real tracks. It might look more attractive to a new buyer, but in terms of racing quality and immersion what REAL difference does it make if your on a real track or a made up track? The racing will be just as good, if not better on a made up track, it's cheaper and less prone to inaccuracies.

OK so let's get to the details here.

Being interested in motorsport maybe you have at some time been to Brands, Oulton, Snet, Silverstone or any other place? Maybe you spent a day there watching the racing from the grandstands, comparing lines, braking points, driving styles between drivers, walking around the track to see different kinds of corners, and maybe witessing some kind of motorsport history in the making if it was a high profile event.

I think most people I would consider racing enthusiasts will have done this kind of thing probably more than once. Now I can't imagine that after such an event anybody would not feel that racing on a virtual Brands, Oulton etc. would be a more "valuable" experience than racing on Fern Bay. Am I wrong?

But you are of course right that the actual racing itself will not really be much different. It's more about atmosphere and feeling.

[micha1980de]

How can you not come to this conclusion?


No it isn't complete. Yes, Scawen has said his next project is the physics. No, this has absolutely nothing to do with you being deliberately abbrasive and obstructive.

There's no need for you to undermine confidence in LFS by references to the physics engine. It's a work-in-progress. There is no attempt to deceive users, or fool them into thinking that the game physics are perfect by excluding anything "real", which is most definitely how your original post reads.

The explicit intention of the Devs is to create "THE BEST" online racing sim. I personally consider that they're totally on course, whether the physics are imperfect at this stage or not.


1. abbrasive? (sorry my translator can't find this word, and i don't know how to instruct google to translate it for me... (But in general, i think it wasn't nice)

2. you havn't answered to my question

3. if i'd intended to be "disturbing" (thought that was your last post concerning me...) you'd notice.

4. i stated my first post in a little /IRONIC manner.

What i need to pinpoint is none of your business, i thought this is a forum were you can post you opinion, to see you defend the devs work (wich i like too) makes me think about the word fanatic.
Meaning that if you make statements that don't "fit in" you'll get flamed...
(not accepting criticism)
Have the devs said that "the best", or is it your conclusion?

[JohnnyFX]

I think for S3 LFS should do the same as with it's cars. Take existing tracks and move parts of them into the game, just too few to be lawsuited to hell ;) .
There are so many great corner-combinations, tricky turns and interesting sections out there that it's a pity LFS has so few of them.

Vain

Between Aston and Kyoto GP I think they've actually covered quite a few of them.

[Tweaker]

A lot has been discussed here but I'll just voice my thoughts on this.

Overall, LFS can move forward regardless of having real tracks and real cars. At this point, LFS is a stepping stone and at this point, addons and all that other stuff would really not benefit the game itself. If we did have real tracks, sure I'd LOVE to have that (specifically Laguna Seca, Nordschliefe, and Bathurst), but it wouldn't make it incredibly better, it would just be more tracks to choose from. Sure the whole 'fantasy' thing is hard to grasp when you want real cars and tracks.... but for the job the dev team has done on LFS for creating fantasy tracks, it is pretty astounding. Most fantasy race tracks are really not as developed or have the flow that Eric creates in them. Eric does a fine job, and works hard to make his OWN creations... matter of fact, all of this game is the dev's own creation in a sense, and when you do something yourself, that always feels rewarding. Making replicas of real tracks can be just as much work, but they would never have the feel of trying something new or inventive.

So in all, I would love to have real tracks for sure, would take one in a heartbeat.... but in LFS, the experience comes mostly in the driving and Eric presents us with tracks that pretty much include nearly all areas of track design.... some ideas taken from most circuits even.... but still have their uniqueness.

EDIT: And oh, in my opinion, talking about having tracks and thinking the devs would do it is just silly, because I have that feeling in my gut that just says the devs will never make a real track.... they will eventually leave all that addon stuff and fan-driven material to US, and only US. Probably around post-S3 we will see things like this turn up --- they've always noted that any public editors and stuff will eventually come out, so you will see things turn up in the future (maybe 2 years from now). Nobody wants a Racer or Netkar game where tons of crap addons circulate, and that is a good sign, because LFS fans want the best out of a simulation -- I am sure the modding abilities of S3 will be great for the community... it is just in due time :)

[Gunn]

I think most people I would consider racing enthusiasts will have done this kind of thing probably more than once. Now I can't imagine that after such an event anybody would not feel that racing on a virtual Brands, Oulton etc. would be a more "valuable" experience than racing on Fern Bay. Am I wrong? But you are of course right that the actual racing itself will not really be much different. It's more about atmosphere and feeling.Many "race enthusiasts" do not comprehend the underlying form of a particular circuit. They will not be thinking of the difficulties and intracacies of track design. They may not understand safety, the use of ripple strips, bollards, pit location and access etc. They may not realise that the track has been designed (or not) with the topography of the surrounding area in mind. They may not realise that their favourite circuit is impossible to overtake on. They may not appreciate the changing surface and varied textures of the tarmac and how this effects the racing.

Some avid race enthusiasts I have met are only at the track to hear the roar of the engines, drink beer, wishing for someone to please crash in a burning fireball right in front of them, drink some more beer, cheer for their favourite brand of car or driver and generally soak up the atmosphere that one gets at race meetings before settling in to drink some more beer.

So being a race enthusiast doesn't qualify one as having any authority or clear comprehension of the circuit, it's layout and construction, it's usefullness for exciting racing and such. If our budding race enthusiast does have some understanding of a circuit's underlying form perhaps he may appreciate any circuit he tries or studies?

It wouldn't matter if LFS had a Monaco track area, I won't be racing along thinking "oh wow! I'm at Monaco!" because I am not at Monaco. I might as well be racing at South City as far as immersion into a street circuit goes (and I would welcome another street circuit in LFS). Sure, I'd like to try the FOX at Monaco but any tight street circuit will do. LFS is such a great simulator that track simulation is not very important to me. Track design, however, is. Eric's tracks each have a distinct character. The corners and sections he creates are very much like many sections on real tracks. The setting and topography are original. Some tracks are narrower than others, some have long straights others not. Elevation changes, something many tracks lack in real life (to the disspointment of many race drivers) feature throughout LFS tracks. A lot of thought needs to go into track design and that is what we find with LFS. There are small improvements that could be made here and there, as in real life, but what we have is variation and diversity.

It is true that some real tracks have a unique atmosphere generated by location, or history/ nostalgia, and I can only assume that this type of atmosphere is what people crave when they desire real tracks in LFS. Putting aside for a moment that a person may just want to try their nerve tackling Eau Rouge, or thunder through the Bustop or hammer down Conrod Straight, the circuits in question are often favourites for romantic reasons. Modern Manaco, for example, is completely unsuitable for racing of modern F1 cars, yet the race continues to be held every year. There is virtually no overtaking, often the majority of the field doesn't finish the race and safety is an ongoing concern for drivers and spectators alike.

As a driver I will always favour a track that is exciting, challenging, safe and offers opportunities to overtake. As a spectator I want the same outcomes. Real or not, some tracks are well designed and some are not. Since Eric designs great LFS tracks I won't be needing any real ones. If they come, they come. Until then I'm completely satisfied with track development so far in LFS. I'm so satisfied that any addition of real tracks to LFS doesn't induce any feelings of longing or excitement in me at all. The future already looks exciting.

In response to the topic title I say that LFS is moving forward just fine without real tracks and any lack of real tracks will not dilute the appeal of this simulator nor slow its progress.

[Hyperactive]

Different tracks present different challenge. Like Monaco, for example. It is not about being fast throughout the race or being a good passer or getting some fast laps. The Monaco is all about 0 tolerance for errors, similar way like the 'ring. Spa is all for high speeds and good passing, but in more forgiving format. Or Hungaroring is all about technical corners with very little passing. All these tracks present different challenge to the drivers and different drivers have different favourites. Winning in Monaco is something every driver dreams of even the majority don't like. Or so I presume.

I personally like fast tracks with some longer straights and tighter places, like Ky3 or As4, reversed or not. I have always hated Spa for the simple reason that it is the most boring track I've virtually driven. Let it be the GPL, F1 or GTR version. Eric's tracks are good, some even excellent in design, but they don't give me the feeling I get when I occasionally start the GTR in that boring Spa. The fact I can watch a race from TV held at that place and then drive some laps there myself. Watching the race knowing the track just gives me something extra.

Of course I understand that many others don't see it like I do.

I think Eric's tracks are too hilly :D:x

[thd]

Indeed Eric designs very nice tracks. The problem as I see it, at this stage, is that he can only make so many before each release. For league racing especially, but also for any type of races, this means you are limited to rotation between 6 venues. Sure, there are several configs for many of them, but 5 configs isn't the same as 5 tracks.

The response on the issue of usermade addons is that there will be alot of crap. They are probably right. So what? You don't have to use the bad ones. In the communities I am familar with there are some trackmakers that stand out, because they make very good looking AND accurately modelled tracks. I have no doubt there are people like this in LFS' community as well, if they get the chance :)

As for real tracks: Yes I feel they add value. Partly because they exist or have existed, and my favourite racing drivers have showed their skills on them. But mostly because some of them are really fantastic drives!

[farcar]

The problem as I see it, at this stage, is that he can only make so many before each release.

That's a good point. I wonder how long it takes Eric to make a track. From scratch to release code. Anyone have any idea?

Eric?

[Blackout]

LFS needs more tracks like Westhill. It only has normal and reversed config, and its brilliant :)

[Hyperactive]

That's a good point. I wonder how long it takes Eric to make a track. From scratch to release code. Anyone have any idea?

Eric?

He has to do much more than just the tracks. I guess making the basic lines of a track doesn't take too long but the finishing takes a loong time.

[DodgeRacer]

are you sure you want such bonuses?
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9988/charade212qq.jpg
http://forum.rscnet.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=342047&d=1136933280
http://forum.rscnet.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=341665&d=1136807546

*hurls

man even nascar 2003 addon tracks look better than that crap wtf game is that :scratchch

[Simon Savage]

I know im an oval Junkie but maybe a short track oval would be nice

[Rumiko]

:tilt:
5660

[joeynuggetz]

I vote for real tracks in the future. What's the big deal? I think we've emulated car physics successfully and LFS gives you a good feel for what virtual racing is like. Why not take it to the next level. THere's something special about real world locations. We play em in every other sim and its frustrating that LFS physics and cars cannot be unleased on these same tracks. I think this would render all other simulations obsolete for me. That only reason I play GTR, rFactor or GPL is becuase of real world locations. This would be a cash cow for the devs. I'm sure there are plenty of tracks that can be modeled without incurring huge amounts of expense. Heck, I'd pay good money for such tracks.

[tristancliffe]

Maybe someone needs to do a bit of research into actually how much real licences cost. Not by guesswork, but by contacting various tracks and finding out the real cost.

Until then it is just conjecture that they cost too much for LFS.

[sTyleFree]

Hopefully the Norschleife isn't too expensive :D

But rather phone 'em on the Week-End, when the tracks are open for public driving.

[Cue-Ball]

I think Eric's tracks are too hilly :D:x
No way! I hope you're only joking!

Hills and elevation changes are what make a track challenging and fun. There's a reason that tracks like Bathhurst and Laguna Seca constantly show up on the 'want list' for tracks. Fighting your way up those hills, then trying to control your car on the way down is exciting!

[JJ72]

I think they should pay LFS to have their tracks in the game. First step is to hire a hacker and silently slip a copy of LFS onto the track owner's PC.......

[Michel 4AGE]

:tilt:
5660

+100

& Nordschleife

KTNXBYE

[geffb]

Being a real racer driving around spa in belgium or the nordschleife or laguna seca (oo bad they are ripping the cork's screw) would be magical with the lfs cars.

now, the amount of work to recreate a good copy of the original is amazing. so, in place of building poor replicas that would be criticized, they create fantasy tracks and have the possibility to let their creativity do the job. no comparison, just fun.

a 25-30 miles rally stage or a more exotic track would be welcomed (rain, ...), but this is personal.

i love lfs as it is, especially when you think there are only 3 people behind that. poor simbin guys who preferred the money to the freedom.

long life to lfs.

[spankmeyer]

Without real cars, real tracks wouldn't matter much. I think it should be either both or none, and in my humble opinion LFS is going just fine with mostly fictional cars and tracks.

[Hyperactive]

In my opinion LFS has a lot to offer to the car manufacturers and track lords (words...). These things are all the time growing amount of users, well organized racing leagues and good and realistic racing simulator. Too bad these aren't the things they are after. Money and marketing.

All we need to do is to get someone who owns a racing track to try LFS :D. And maybe those very small car builders who build those little exotic widgets would like to join too. Who knows, maybe the car manufacturers start to think twice before giving their cars and all to some crappy games when there are people who enjoy realistic racing. The money they get is so small after all if compared to the other costs/income they have.

There are lots of ways which haven't been thought of yet. I remember that someone made some old castle for Unreal Tournament 2003 and it was part of some historical museum project. They used the computer model to show what kind of place it really was. There are ways to apply this to LFS. It needs just work and eye to recongnize the window when it opens. One way could be to contact some racing related museum and ask if they would be interested.

I might be interested to contact some finnish race tracks if they were interested about this LFS thing. But I really feel little "reserved" about contacting the track lords (again that word) and using the LFS name. And the other questions are as important as well: do we want that track to LFS at all? Do the devs want it and are they interested to spend time creating it? What kind of terms are they willing to accept? As I really can't promise anything or even mentioning LFS in that context is little risky...as I am only a customer who has bought one copy of it.

But there is always chance and sometimes a way too :)

[theblackrabbi]

I like the oval sometimes, when there are not a bunch of pricks on it, but...I think I would enjoy it more if there were more indy car type tracks. I'm sure somebody has said this over and over, but taladega, or california speedway type tracks. Ofcourse something like that would be great, and I'm sure they thought of it already, so I'll just remind'em

[Simon Savage]

You say about real cars but LFS can model there cars almost exactly on real ones and it be fine. However they can not do the same with real tracks.
For instance the FOX is just like a formula Renult or somthing like that but as they dont say it is then they dont have to pay for it.