Sequential Gearboxes

[Becky Rose]

I'm interested to hear the considered opinion of TBO drivers: Is using a sequential gearbox an advantage? If so, how much is it worth over a lap of a shortish track like Aston Cadet?

My feeling is that it is an advantage - but i'm not sure how much of one. I'd like to encourage the use of shifters where a driver has the option of both, whilst not excluding those who do not have a choice over their controller.

[Christopher Raemisch]

Personally the advantage with sequential is not the actual shift time, you can shift just as fast in a gated with practice, the advantage comes when you miss a shift with a gated shifter, this wouldn't happen with the seq.

So with gated your bringing in the ability to have miss shifts, which would be cool to have =) IMO with the direction you are going Becky I would make it manditory people must use a gated shifter and a clutch for the league. Most wheels come with a clutch and a gated shifter can be purchased seperatly.

Personally I would hate to this in a league, but for what your trying to produce it's well worth the money for the drivers to compete and would add another variable into the races for the drivers to cope with.

[scipy]

Ehm, sequentials gearboxes are something else.. TBO can have a sequential operated H gearbox.. but you forcing people to use a H shifter is not a good idea, the thing with "miss-shifts" is that you can avoid them even with an H box, just place the gearlever in the next gear and then you stab the clutch pedal.. so there is no way to make sure everyone is operating the gearbox like they should.

[mcintyrej]

I agree with Chris - however I think a lot of people would complain as they may not want to spend over £100 just to be allowed to qualify for the league - being good enough is another matter.

I've been driving a lot of TBO over the past few days and I've found my laptimes to be no different whether I use a H-Gated shifter or a Sequential.

I don't think Manual clutching should be mandatory unless you force a h-gate, because to my knowledge sequential boxes don't need a clutch so it would be wrong to force someone to use a clutch who uses sequential.

Why not create a series of points gains you can pick up by driving with different aids? This wouldn't necessarily look good in a broadcast but you can always just not mention it. If you did that drivers would have an incentive to drive with manual clutch and H-gate but don't feel pressured that they have to use them.

Ehm, sequentials gearboxes are something else.. TBO can have a sequential operated H gearbox.. but you forcing people to use a H shifter is not a good idea, the thing with "miss-shifts" is that you can avoid them even with an H box, just place the gearlever in the next gear and then you stab the clutch pedal.. so there is no way to make sure everyone is operating the gearbox like they should.

This is a good point made by Scipy about the H gate cheating by just putting it in gear and the hitting the clutch. If you didn't use restrictions on gearboxes people wouldn't need to find and use these exploits to be quicker.

Perhaps a forced-sequential system would be good, this way you can force everyone to use autoclutch and you can have a realistic-ish sequential system in all cars. The G25's sequential shifter mode can also be used for this for the people that don't like flappy paddles.

[Christopher Raemisch]

True you can do it that way, but you are only talking about 1 gear and when downshifting you could be making up to 4 gearchanges within a couple seconds and you simply do not have the time to put it in the lower gear and hit the clutch when the time is right. Besides, who uses the clutch on downshifting anyways? I know I never did, just blipped like mad. Which can be done in the TBO's because they don't use syncro transmissions, but maybe they should? =)

Maybe Scawen could put in something that would prevent this.

Currently it would be hard to get people use a clutch as well due to button clutching so both the clutch and the shifting would need to be looked at to have them work 100% but IMO it's the only way to go with this type of league, one that is striving for as much realism as possible. Bringing a true challenge to a driver, other than having them put in a bazillion laps to compensate for their lack of judgement skills.

Hopefully you can find a way to put in a budget system somehow for the drivers to look at too. Maybe having drivers win money? Maybe using that money to pay for testing time? This testing time would remove weight or restriction on the cars? I donno, your much smarter than me, I am sure you can think of something =) The more laps you run the more 'wear' you get, slowly adding restriction/weight. The closer to the fastest lap you are the faster this weear happens?

I know what I am saying has been discussed elsewhere in various forms, not sure how far you have gotten on it Becky or exactly how you were going to do any of this but IMO above would work =)

[Becky Rose]

Something like that was prototyped last season and tested all good when I was with UKCT, although the mechanics of it varied greatly to what you've suggested the principle was along those vague lines and I will be using something similar in regards to keeping the field even, the cars balanced, and attendance as high as possible.

I've a rule that says never rely on something that doesnt exist if I dont plan to make it myself, which means i'm not going to rely on a feature request from Scawen. Whilst it would be nice if the whole issue of clutching and gearboxes was tidyed up at the LFS end i'll work with what we've got because that is what we've got.

I'm not going to force a 3 pedal setup & shifter as I dont think it would be fair to ask drivers to make a financial investment to compete in an LFS league, I think that idea would fall flat on its face and leave me picking the barrel trying to find enough drivers.

What i'd like to do is simply encourage those drivers who have the controllers to use them by mildly shifting performance in their favour in relation to the easy option.

[AndroidXP]

the thing with "miss-shifts" is that you can avoid them even with an H box, just place the gearlever in the next gear and then you stab the clutch pedal.. so there is no way to make sure everyone is operating the gearbox like they should.Just for info, this is not true for the current patch. The ultraquick pre-select cheat shifting method was removed, the gear now disengages as soon as you put the shifter into neutral. This behaviour is not exactly realistic, but it is much better than what was possible before.

[Christopher Raemisch]

Aye thats the problem with having it manditory. I would love to see it though =)

Your version was what made me think of something like that, it worked a treat IMO and should work great if the right balance is hit with how much is taken off/added per session/event. I am sure you can find the right numbers, you spend more time than most tweaking things =P

Glad to hear that it's semi-fixed. I haven't played LFS for a while now so I haven't noticed anything.

[scipy]

Just for info, this is not true for the current patch. The ultraquick pre-select cheat shifting method was removed, the gear now disengages as soon as you put the shifter into neutral. This behaviour is not exactly realistic, but it is much better than what was possible before.

Oh well, I haven't played around on shifter since the Y patch, nice to know it doesn't work any more. Still, the best way to make sure no one gets a shifting advantage is to make an autoclutch (and maybe axisclutch) options mandatory.

[Becky Rose]

I dont want to force auto clutch on, imagine you are a race fan who knows nothing about sims and somebody shows you a show that supposedly represents the pinnacle of the sport, compare these two commentary lines...

"The drivers dont have clutches so he should be able to just drive off and rejoin the race with no damage, gear changes in the STCC are just a matter of pressing a button.".

"I think recovering from that sand trap has burnt his clutch out, as he comes past I can hear it slipping a little, he was lucky not to stall he mustve banged the gearbox into neutral the moment he lost the back end".

[Dru]

I dont want to force auto clutch on, imagine you are a race fan who knows nothing about sims and somebody shows you a show that supposedly represents the pinnacle of the sport, compare these two commentary lines...

"The drivers dont have clutches so he should be able to just drive off and rejoin the race with no damage, gear changes in the STCC are just a matter of pressing a button.".

"I think recovering from that sand trap has burnt his clutch out, as he comes past I can hear it slipping a little, he was lucky not to stall he mustve banged the gearbox into neutral the moment he lost the back end".


What happens in F1 then - THE pinnicle of Motorsport.

oh and he's spun.... the auto anti-stall mechanism has cut in and kept the engine running....

or is it not like that :razz:

[Becky Rose]

If I wanted to make F1 i'd use the BF1 car... But we all know touring cars are more fun to watch :)

[Christopher Raemisch]

If I wanted to make F1 i'd use the BF1 car... But we all know touring cars are more fun to watch :)

Thats an understatement :thumb: Unless its raining during the race F1 is about as exciting as watching NASCAR...

[mcintyrej]

What happens in F1 then - THE pinnicle of Motorsport.

oh and he's spun.... the auto anti-stall mechanism has cut in and kept the engine running....

or is it not like that :razz:

I'd say 50% of the people who watch F1 watch it as a competition over nationality - rather than motorsport. Much like how they watch the Olympics I suspect.

So the other half of racing fanatics would hear that line and go "Pfft, anti-stall." and laugh a bit at the driver. The other half would be impressed by the technology and/or be confused by what the commentator just said.

The STCC is a simulation motorsport, so i'd reckon about 80% of the people who watch it are into motorsport and about another 10% of the 100 would know how to drive a manual car, so would understand how to use a clutch and what the driver did in order to keep the car going - in turn being impressed.



I think.

[scipy]

I dont want to force auto clutch on, imagine you are a race fan who knows nothing about sims and somebody shows you a show that supposedly represents the pinnacle of the sport, compare these two commentary lines...

"The drivers dont have clutches so he should be able to just drive off and rejoin the race with no damage, gear changes in the STCC are just a matter of pressing a button.".

"I think recovering from that sand trap has burnt his clutch out, as he comes past I can hear it slipping a little, he was lucky not to stall he mustve banged the gearbox into neutral the moment he lost the back end".

yea but if you dont force autoclutch on in order to have more "realism" what is there to stop people from gaining an advantage? 150 ms shift time from a button clutch versus 250 ms shift time of the autoclutch.. there are heated discussions going on about the bc and if it is a "cheat" and any top league should run with autoclutch=1 just to make sure the field is equal. that was the whole idea here? it's just a bit silly to expect even people who have G25's to shut down autoclutch and sequential gearchanges so it can be a better show.. personaly, i'd drive with a shifter and a clutch pedal if the pedals were correctly designed (brake pedal taller than throttle even when pressed down fully), but since they are done as they are now, it's almost impossible to do proper heel'n'toe downshifts during an hour race.. my ancle just says "ktnxbai" and brake pressure modulation is a bit tricky.

[AndroidXP]

(brake pedal taller than throttle even when pressed down fully), but since they are done as they are now, it's almost impossible to do proper heel'n'toe downshifts during an hour race.. my ancle just says "ktnxbai" and brake pressure modulation is a bit tricky.That's why you mod them, which is really easy, really cheap and really effective. You can even remove that mod again without anyone ever noticing, in case the guarantee is a concern for you.

[Becky Rose]

well i'll start by saying that I really dont care what other leagues do in terms of resolving this issue - but that I am interested in the facts raised in their discussions over it. So it doesnt bother me that "any top league should run with autoclutch=1 just to make sure the field is equal" as it's not rellevent to me at all.

The issue over cheating in changing gears is one for consideration. If I can develop a tool to reliably detect a gear change macro - and for the purposes of this debate lets assume I can - then is it better to encourage the use of stick and gearshift.

The argument that it still isnt realistic anyway, it's just a sim, is one i'm that i'm not going to take on board, my way of looking at it is that i'm keen to make it as realistic as I can given that it's a sim.

Regarding driver comfort and your ankle, the STCC feature race is quite short, during the preceeding heats you get regular breaks during the event. I'm wary of ensuring all drivers get an adequate break from the screen during the event in order to be above reproach regarding any health and safety concerns. Any further issues concerning driver comfort is their own responsibility but the series will not enforce a situation that is unsafe.

yea but if you dont force autoclutch on in order to have more "realism" what is there to stop people from gaining an advantage? 150 ms shift time from a button clutch versus 250 ms shift time of the autoclutch
This bit though, is really interesting :) ! I'm keen to know what typical shift times are using a clutch pedal rather than button or auto clutch, does anyone have any reasonably verified data on it?

[Christopher Raemisch]

This bit though, is really interesting :) ! I'm keen to know what typical shift times are using a clutch pedal rather than button or auto clutch, does anyone have any reasonably verified data on it?

hmm donno, I never used the clutch off of first other than preventing a stall in a spin.

[scipy]

This bit though, is really interesting :) ! I'm keen to know what typical shift times are using a clutch pedal rather than button or auto clutch, does anyone have any reasonably verified data on it?

I just exported 2 raf files, autoclutch is exactly 210 ms and the fastest that I've been able to "stab" the clutch pedal was 260 ms.

[AndroidXP]

When testing, the fastest times I managed with a manual clutch was 170ms, but that was already pretty insane and only possible when trying really hard - nothing you could consistently do over the duration of a race or even a lap.

[Becky Rose]

Interesting results, I wonder if pedals has much to do with it?

Also are you doing: clutch, change gear, declutch; Or: change gear, clutch?

Thank you for your research, there is disparity to other data i've got so this is interesting. :)

[AndroidXP]

Personally I recorded a replay on the dragstrip where I tried to shift as fast as possible. Then I watched the replay in single step mode, noting down start and end time of the shift procedure. The start was counted as soon as either the throttle or clutch bar started moving, and the end as soon both were still again after the shift.

A shift was basically throttle out, clutch in, shift, clutch out, throttle in. I found that most of the time needed is spent fully clutched in, probably due to the inertia of your leg or something. I really had to try hard to get such times though; normal race shift times should be in the 250+ ms range.

[scipy]

Interesting results, I wonder if pedals has much to do with it?

Also are you doing: clutch, change gear, declutch; Or: change gear, clutch?

Thank you for your research, there is disparity to other data i've got so this is interesting. :)

Np, I was doing a proper gearshift like you would do in a car, clutch-gear change-declutch but in a blink of an eye. I've driven some fast cars IRL and basically you can't shift like that because every time you declutch too fast u can feel the engine being pulled down fairly quickly and there's a notable jerk forward, it would just be a matter of time before ur drivetrain fell apart (it wouldn't probably be in the first 50 000 km because the engineering department designs parts with stupid people in mind and that's why safety factors and overdimensioning are there but still.. you would start feeling the effects much sooner than someone who does gentler shifts).

[Becky Rose]

ok, i've made my verdict with regards to STCC.

The preffered controller method is with an axis clutch (clutch pedal). For teams wishing to allow a button clutch or autoclutch there will be a small penalty (integrating with another system i've no published yet so wont go into).

Clutch Macro's will not be banned. As far as I can tell they offer no shift time advantage over autoclutch, but due to a bug in the current autoclutch the release of the clutch is more progressive (same for button clutch) which allows for more stability under braking.

So Standard Method:
Clutch Pedal->slowest shift

With a small penalty:
Button Clutch
Autoclutch->sudden release of clutch bug
Macro

Under other STCC regulations all connected software and devices must be declared, although hard to enforce, the principle is that development of additional software is encouraged but should be disclosed to the stewards.

In regards to the macro I see it as a solution to a bug in LFS, if teams wish to develope their own macro's to overcome this that is fine by me, but a clutch pedal will be the preffered method and overall advantageous in terms of on track performance.

[word.]

ok, i've made my verdict with regards to STCC.

The preffered controller method is with an axis clutch (clutch pedal). For teams wishing to allow a button clutch or autoclutch there will be a small penalty (integrating with another system i've no published yet so wont go into).

Clutch Macro's will not be banned. As far as I can tell they offer no shift time advantage over autoclutch, but due to a bug in the current autoclutch the release of the clutch is more progressive (same for button clutch) which allows for more stability under braking.

So Standard Method:
Clutch Pedal->slowest shift

With a small penalty:
Button Clutch
Autoclutch->sudden release of clutch bug
Macro

Under other STCC regulations all connected software and devices must be declared, although hard to enforce, the principle is that development of additional software is encouraged but should be disclosed to the stewards.

In regards to the macro I see it as a solution to a bug in LFS, if teams wish to develope their own macro's to overcome this that is fine by me, but a clutch pedal will be the preffered method and overall advantageous in terms of on track performance.
This would be impossible to enforce. I can already think of an exploit that will make LFS think you are using a axis clutch, when you are actually using a macro, by using the invert axis command.

all you would have to do is bind a key to "/invert 0 clutch", "shift_up", "shift_down" and "/invert 1 clutch"

then using an external macro program you could make it do this for a shift up:

- press the button that you bound to /invert 0 clutch
- wait
- press the button that you bound to shift_up
- wait
- press the button that you bound to /invert 1 clutch

[Becky Rose]

This would be impossible to enforce. I can already think of an exploit that will make LFS think you are using a axis clutch, when you are actually using a macro, by using the invert axis command.

all you would have to do is bind a key to "/invert 0 clutch", "shift_up", "shift_down" and "/invert 1 clutch"

then using an external macro program you could make it do this for a shift up:

- press the button that you bound to /invert 0 clutch
- wait
- press the button that you bound to shift_up
- wait
- press the button that you bound to /invert 1 clutch
hmm, wouldnt that result in sudden depression/release of the clutch? That should be pretty easy to detect if so. If the clutch movement is smooth however that could be a problem.

[word.]

From my testing it seems that it will only go as fast as the button control rate is set to.

edit: if it was instant you would probably be able to shift faster in the UF1 than BF1... lol

edit2: you might want to read this thread http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=45980

[Becky Rose]

If I get drivers using an axis clutch to run a local monitoring application I am pretty sure I can detect it.

I wanted to avoid having local monitoring applications, but I guess at least it would be optional based upon selected gearbox type.

Grrr this is all so much hassle.

[scipy]

Clutch Macro's will not be banned. As far as I can tell they offer no shift time advantage over autoclutch, but due to a bug in the current autoclutch the release of the clutch is more progressive (same for button clutch) which allows for more stability under braking.

Hm, how come? I mean there is an obvious advantage when using a buttonclutch or a buttonclutch macro (in Wingman profiler) shift time is almost 100 ms less. This means less clutch temperature and less time when the wheels aren't driven by the engine. It is a significant advantage if you have a couple of pretty equal drivers. I was on CTRA Race 1 yesterday and there were a couple of buttonclutchers, they weren't particulary fast but I went slightly faster in the corners (as much as u can with STD cars) and as soon as we were out of the chicane they came closing in so fast that I barely kept the lead until the next turn came around. If you are going to penalise macro & regular autoclutch then the penalty shouldn't be the same (i.e. buttonclutchers should get 2-3 tenths worth more of weight or whatever). If you need it, I can provide clutch over time graphs for buttonclutch vs autoclutch.

[Becky Rose]

Under the proposed regs using a button clutch you would be allowed to run a macro if you wanted - either way you will be encumberred and at a disadvantage to users on a clutch pedal, and if you stall a macro isnt going to save you - which i'm more interested in. You can also use autoclutch if you wish, i'm not fussed as by this stage your already running an encumberance and i'm not bothered.

It's macro use with the clutch pedal controller type i'm now looking at, this needs outlawing so that drivers using a fully manual system have the advantaqge. I need to do some data analysis on this but in principle I think I can detect macro use with an axis controller type for the clutch.

[csurdongulos]

okay, so the next STCC season will be a quest to find who presses a button quickest (button clutch) or can find a new way to do a macro for an axis clutch. Shouldn`t it be about racing instead? Just enforce auto clutch and you will be spared a lot of work. I am on autoclutch, and I cannot be bothered to look for macros or use a button clutch so I clearly want to turn this into the favour of all other people who feel the way I do.

All this who gets an extra advantage because they use a different controller or setup is just unnecessary. The spectacle will be there either way, it is not about the type of clutch used.

It will also make the series equal to everybody.

[mcintyrej]

Enforcing autoclutch is the best option for me, as well.

The Baby R series is ran with autoclutch on and brake help off and its very close - in qualifying the distance between first and last (32 cars) is usually about a second or less.

[dawesdust_12]

Except for the fact that Jack... I would rather use my full H-Gate setup driving Baby-R's, as I do in practice, but I can't because of people exploiting some ****ing macro...

[LRB_Aly]

I didn't read the whole thread, (my time's somewhat limited lately), so I'm only gonna write my feeling. I did a lot of driving wih the H-gated shifter with clutch this summer, mostly on the FZR. I improved a lot but when I got back on sequential I drove a second a lap faster (in average). The advantage was that on a single lap I could brake alway on the same place and be sure it was the right braking point. On the shifter it was always a bit random, either I've put not enough brake pressure or too much or I didn't downshift fast enough. Fact is I always loose in the braking zones with the shifter.

Of course all would have been much easier if I'd mapped a key as clutch but that's not the way it should be. In this case maybe autoclutch would be the best way to prevent some drivers using button clutch while other go the harder way and use the clutch pedal.

[Vain]

Regarding local clutch pedal detection:
I use a dxtweak to reduce the effective clutch travel to match a more real feeling to it. Basically the clutch pedal does nothing on the first 20% or travel, disengages the gear on the next 30% and again does nothing for the remaining 50% where the gear is already fully disengaged.
This makes driving a good bit easier and also more realistic. However it makes local detection harder since my foot inputs appear sudden and ruther un-smooth.
Since this is a more realistic method of driving it should be allowed, but on the other hand it is up to the driver's preferance to decide how much effective clutch travel he wants, which could degrade the clutch pedal to an on/off-switch if practiced to the extreme.

I file this here for your consideration. I don't have a possible solution to the problem.

Vain

[Becky Rose]

The problem here is different drivers want different things. My current thinking on it is to leave gearbox/clutch completely up to the driver for now but to have all drivers declare their method and see where that gets us, and then review the situation during the season.

[Dru]

The problem here is different drivers want different things. My current thinking on it is to leave gearbox/clutch completely up to the driver for now but to have all drivers declare their method and see where that gets us, and then review the situation during the season.

This sounds like a VERY suitable plan :nod:

Gather your info through a complete season and then roll out any neccessary changes in S3.... er sorry Season 3 :D

[Vain]

I'd still like H-Gate shifters to be encouraged in a senseful manner besides saying "Please". It provides a good source of errors and will raise the amount of place-swapping going on during the race a lot. Beside that it's also a lot of fun.
Regarding enforcement I was just thinking of having all drivers declare their method of driving and the tools they use beforehand and then use a local program to make a snapshot of the running tasks and the md5 checksums of .lfs scripts and anything else you find noteworthy. Store the data without any user interaction in a mySQL-DB @ simtouringcarcup.com and you've made a pretty good effort at controlling the shifting method.
A local program can also be very helpful in other areas like providing telemetry for the broadcast (e.g. amount of fuel,etc.) so it'd serve several purposes.

Usually I don't like such control-mechanisms, but I'd really like to see more than 50% of the field use H-Gate-shifters and 3 pedals and I'm willing to make sacrifices for it.

Vain

[Becky Rose]

That was my thinking at one point Patrick, but legitimate uses can also be made of control profiler software, it's going to take a lot of development to reliably detect macro use.

I do, in time, want to see all or most STCC drivers using an H shifter and clutch pedal, but I dont want to be developing tools to patch exploits that may only be temporary in LFS when there is so much other development stuff to be done before the STCC can return.

This is definitely an area that will be reviewed.

[BlueFlame]

Except for the fact that Jack... I would rather use my full H-Gate setup driving Baby-R's, as I do in practice, but I can't because of people exploiting some ****ing macro...
Can you PLEASE just stop hating on everyone for 1 damn minute, jeez