LFS eye-candy

[Jo-Chen]

Hi,

did it happen to you, too that you show your favorite game to some of your friends and their first reaction is "looks a bit outdated" or something like that? Thats actually exactly what a friend of mine said to me, and he's not even some kind of "gamer". Last computer games he played were Unreal Tournament and Counter-Strike. Guess thats a couple of years ago.

Then I just saw some edited screenshots of LFS and thought that those pics look incredibly realistic - though I don't really see what the author did to achieve this (it's not just the depth blur, is it?).
http://www.asmo.allian.net/pics/Race_pics/allian4.jpg
http://www.asmo.allian.net/pics/Race_pics/as1_turnone.jpg

I know that some of you would love to argue now that LFS is not about eye-candy. I'm aware of that. But maybe there are some little tricks the devs don't know about yet.

So this is an attempt to start a thread with eye-candy improvement suggestions for the devs. :thumbsup:

[Lautsprecher[NOR]]

The one thing i want is better looking rims. NO i'm not a ricer, but the rims in LFS do not have enough details. This could probably be best solved with adding some textures to them. Also, the tire-smoke could be more realistic.

[wes.brook]

Without doubt for me the most improvement eye-candy wise is required in the place we spend most of our time (i.e. the cab).

I am a real fan of the way LFS lets you integrate by making head movements (particularly with TrackIR) realistic and being able to view the entire cab. This is a major advantage for LFS immersion for me over many other racing sims out there. So, to improve the in cab graphics, textures etc. would get a big thumbs up from me (but the way it is now is also excellent so I'm certainly not complaining).

[tristancliffe]

What other sims don't allow TrackIR?

And Eric IS working on better cockpits, I guarantee it.

Edit: For me, in terms of visual improvment, I'd like to see sidewall textures on the tyres, blurry wheels (to stop people from complaining about it everyday), dynamic tread textures, better interiors, and a higher quality helmet model. But it's the least important part of the sim in my opinion. I play it to race, and I get enough immersion in the physics to keep me happy.

[wes.brook]

Most other sims do allow TrackIR, but generally not the freedom of view within the cab that LFS does, meaning the view stops short of allowing you to look into the back of the car for example. I know you would be unlikely to use such a view during a race, but it's good to check back if you run wide/off and need to be sure rejoining the track will not ruin someone else's race.

[Vain]

That z-blurr in the pictures is good for screenshots, but the driver's eye can focus any distance, so blurring will just make people mad, and won't be realistic.

And about LFS's graphics - here and there some polygons are missing, but I don't think that's too bad. "w00t, cool effects" is not necessarily realistic. You know, normal tracks do not shine and reflect like in NFS...
Though, of course dynamic lightning is really missing, but we only need that when we get nights, so this is S3-stuff.

Vain

[Stellios]

I really want a higher detail interior, its a simple trick that makes a game feel a lot nicer.

[ORION]

LFS needs shadow maps on all world geometry polys :)

[Jo-Chen]

What comes to my mind is the windshield. Something on it like a wiper, some dirt, reflections etc. would increase the feeling a lot imho. Could be static. Just that it does not look as if there was no windshield at all :-)

Also it would be nice to have some visible air (when its hot), but thats rather difficult to implement I guess.

Edit: Whoops, there are wipers on the windshield. Never noticed that until now :shrug:

[Breizh]

LFS needs updated graphics that run at 9fps.

[wes.brook]

Windshield suggestion is a good idea :D I'm in agreement with that.

[Jo-Chen]

LFS needs updated graphics that run at 9fps.

If only! But seriously, I think there are a lot of possible improvements that don't affect the framerate more than -5%. (Percentage arbitrarily chosen, no guarantee)

[Cue-Ball]

And Eric IS working on better cockpits, I guarantee it.
Tristan - You've said this in many a thread now. While I think you're probably correct, until we see something from the devs I think it's best not to make statements like this. I'd hate to see Scawen release the upcoming physics patch and have everyone say "Where are the updated cockpits we were promised!?". You know how those things go (unless you know something the rest of us don't). :Looking_a

I agree with some of what's been said here. The biggest improvment would come from updated, higher poly, better textured interiors and driver (especially the hands). The second biggest improvement would be more track details. For instance, the crowds look pretty bad and are totally static, and there are no marshalls, pit crew, corner workers, etc. After that a windshield that gets dirty a-la GTL would be nice.

I really think that if you run a decent resolution, and AA/AF, LFS looks pretty damn good - even the wheels. It's just the little things that are missing which make it look a little empty. But considering how good the game itself is, these things are all icing on the cake.

[Jo-Chen]

But it's the least important part of the sim in my opinion. I play it to race, and I get enough immersion in the physics to keep me happy.

Okay, but try to put yourself into the position of someone who sees LFS for the first time. Nobody can really complain about the physics since it's already today better than anything else. Yet the visual impression is not perfect. It doesn't need to be perfect, but a little more eye candy would do no harm.

[tristancliffe]

I don't. I only know what was mentioned at the LFS Karting Meet (already discussed) and on this forum. And I (and I suspect Eric himself) do not know when they will be ready. Nowhere have I stated or alluded that Eric's updates will be in the next patch, just that he IS working on them.

In just the same way I can say Scawen IS working on the physics. Maybe not right this minute, but he has stated thats one of the next things on the list. It doesn't mean the next patch WILL be physics related, as that we do not know.

I only stated that Eric is working on it because every couple of weeks we have a new person telling us how poor they are. I think it needs to be clear that it will change at some point, so suggesting it is wasted air (or keyboard buttons).

[micha1980de]

If only! But seriously, I think there are a lot of possible improvements that don't affect the framerate more than -5%. (Percentage arbitrarily chosen, no guarantee)

so be it, but like most of the options triggerable please...

[glyphon]

... and there are no marshalls, pit crew, corner workers, etc.

there actually are corner workers. i saw them in on of the replays i was watching...blackwood i beleive. i just never noticed them until then.


I really think that if you run a decent resolution, and AA/AF, LFS looks pretty damn good - even the wheels.

i agree. i'm running 1280x960 with 2x aa/af with temporal aa and the high res skies, and it looks pretty damn good. the skies make a huge difference.

[Cue-Ball]

there actually are corner workers. i saw them in on of the replays i was watching...blackwood i beleive. i just never noticed them until then.
You're right. There are a few guys working corners or viewing the track from a perch. But I didn't really count them since a) they're few and far between b) they don't move or wave flags c) because of a and b, most LFS drivers have probably never seen them except during a replay from 3rd person view.

I'd ideally like to see a worker (or two) at every corner, like in a real race. I'd like to see workers waving flags like in GTR, instead of "Yellow Flag" pasted across the screen. And I'd really like to see *someone* on the track. Even if we don't have fancy animated pit crews, seeing a few guys milling around in the pits, a few people under an umbrella watching the race, people lined up by the snack bar, vendors manning their tents...something.

Of course, I also realize that this is far easier said than done. And, again, I love the sim just the way it is. But I think this could be a big improvement in "eye candy" and immersiveness, though i've got a laundry list of items that I think rank much higher (and I bet the devs would think so too).

[AndroidXP]

I agree, a few more people standing around - a little more "life" to the tracks - would be a great addition and a big plus for immersion. Currently, when you win a race it's all like "wahoooo *clap*clap*clap* ...wait... where is everybody?". It's often the small details that can have a huge effect.

[Gunn]

did it happen to you, too that you show your favorite game to some of your friends and their first reaction is "looks a bit outdated" or something like that?No.

[Hankstar]

When I show people LFS they go "this is great fun, graphics could use a tune up" but yet they sit there for ages, hammering the UF or the XRGT around South City until I kick them off so I can play.

I'd like to see some non-gameplay improvements in LFS for sure. Marshalls waving flags would be a very nice touch, glass that shatters & breakable suspension/removeable wheels, better interiors, and all that cool-sounding stuff that's been mentioned before. Black flags/warnings for contact/reckless driving & rolling starts at the oval (both either automatic or admin controlled) would be pretty cool too.

Though when I show GPL to people they go "great car graphics, wicked billboards - is this new?" The beauty of obsessive-compulsive GPL modders I guess :) Then when they play it the first time they go "god that's too damn hard, damn overpowered undergripped monsters" and ask to play LFS again :D

[STROBE]

A touch that I'd like to see when the graphics get upgraded is dirt. The more distance you cover and the faster the speed, the dirtier your car would get and the shine would be lost, with muck and spray around wheel arches and on leading edges. Be great if it varied according to the track too - somewhere like Westhill would be dusty and dirty, whereas KY1 would probably be quite clean. I recall an F1 race at a rural, rarely used circuit (might've been Hungaroring) where one of the leading cars finished the race and it was absolutely filthy.

Another graphical touch would be a windscreen that shows the dirt, especially if you follow a car that's just taken a trip through the sand, or has a damaged engine and is losing oil, etc. Then we'd need working wipers to clean it, though...

[Stellios]

I knwo its nto likely to happen until at least S3, if at all, but the sounds in this game make it soo weak. I came off GTR and R Factor onto LFS and the engines sounded sooo feeble in comparison.

[tristancliffe]

I knwo its nto likely to happen until at least S3, if at all, but the sounds in this game make it soo weak. I came off GTR and R Factor onto LFS and the engines sounded sooo feeble in comparison.

Yes, we've heard it all before. Now close your eyes and change gear by sound alone. Or use the throttle on corner exit using just sound. You can't in rFactor or GTR/GTL because of the samples, but in LFS what you hear is whats happening. No fake effects here.

But lets not start a sound debate again here. There's plenty of threads to bump for those with a sound chip on their shoulder.

[deggis]

With breakable window (like RBR) and bonnet that would jump up, "I CAN'T SEE SHIT" message bind would come handy. :)

[AndroidXP]

Heh, that happens already... if the roof gets smashed in :D

[tinvek]

And I'd really like to see *someone* on the track.

how about a mad irish ex priest fortelling the end of the world taking a walk down the fastest part part of the track and marshalls rugby tackling him ?

:tilt:

[Nick_ll]

Ok let's try to keep the list short:
- wheels with BOLTS
- texture on those wheels that have bolts
- textures that blur (radial blur) on those same wheels
- textured sidewalls on the same wheels still
- while we are on the wheels topic, how about normal maps? They could be used to add some depth to the treads don't you think?
- how about car-specific steering wheels? I mean instead of always using that same Cromo steering wheel.....
- Being at that, maybe racing steering wheels in the GTRs that look more like racing steering wheels? You know with switches on them, a bar on the center top of the grip to show the center....
- how about dynamic dirt? You know the cars get less shiny as time goes by and if you happen to do a bit of off-road in the sand for example.....and that would of course include the windshield getting dirty too.
- DIALS. Real cars don't all have the same dials for one thing, and secondly, they are not digital representing an analog thing. Generally the needles are physical objects.

[AndroidXP]

- DIALS. Real cars don't all have the same dials for one thing, and secondly, they are not digital representing an analog thing. Generally the needles are physical objects.
The needles we have now are physical objects :confused:

[ORION]

I think they are textures instead of polygones, so fsaa shouldnt work with (never tested that, though)

About the normal maps: I dont know how much changes to the engine (and also to the editors) would be required to realize normal maps, so maybe simple bump mapping is easier.


...And I still want those shadow maps on the track geometry :P :D

[Nick_ll]

The needles we have now are physical objects :confused:
Nope they are not. They have no centers and they are completely flat. They would be like what was in the 1994 Ford Windstar LX. I think there's a Merc or a Lexus like that too?

[MataGyula]

hmmm ... i think some swett new shader effects would be great ( bump mapping, HDR and so ) . And yeah , we need a little "movement" on the track > birds flyin' around :D , spectators running around with HUGE flags .
Better interior, better window, GRASS ( like in MoH PA :tilt: ) .

[deggis]

I'd say no for "HDR" and such effects, as they usually means something very exaggerated like NFS: Most Wanted. It looks like playing under influence of LSD. DX9 support and some effects with it would be nice instead of super-blooming HDR.

[AndroidXP]

Well, if HDR then not the crappy bloom part, more like the dynamic shutter part.

[Matrixi]

Shaders and HDR effects don't make games look like you're under influence of LSD if you use them properly and not over-do them.

[AndroidXP]

Nope they are not. They have no centers and they are completely flat. They would be like what was in the 1994 Ford Windstar LX. I think there's a Merc or a Lexus like that too?
Yeah, you are right. I just tested with a custom camera view and they just stay very pixelated. Actual 3D objects would stay smooth.

[jtr99]

how about a mad irish ex priest fortelling the end of the world taking a walk down the fastest part part of the track and marshalls rugby tackling him ?
:tilt:

I think he's more of a Need for Speed guy.

[deggis]

Shaders and HDR effects don't make games look like you're under influence of LSD if you use them properly and not over-do them.
Haven't seen a game which wouldn't over-do it. HL2 gets close though.

[george_tsiros]

volumetric shadows FTW!

[himself]

All we realy need for better gfx currently is some kind of bump mapping (dot3 is known to be the best for normal use) and so called "sunmapping" - sun reflections in asphalt.
I would like to see also some bloom effect that made a terrific job in Brothers in Arms.

[richy]

i would like to see some sort of hazey shine from the headlights...

[deggis]

i would like to see some sort of hazey shine from the headlights...
But we don't have headlights.

:D

[george_tsiros]

frankly, i would not mind some blatant eye candy AT ALL.

Even though usualy i stick to reality and i am a rabid pragmatist, this time it is a little different.

since it is very very hard to achieve photorealism, one could lightheartedly argue that some silly eyecandy would fill the realism gap. not very proper, but somewhat pleasing.
i think.