Different bodies for the same car

[Bandit77]

Yes, it's eyecandy and I want fading brakes and stuff first too... but:

What about different looks for exactly the same car? I don't think it would be such a big deal as the 3d-models aren't this extremely complex anyway (which is perfectly ok, though).

Let's take the XRG as an example. At the moment it looks like a Starion - but you could have maybe one or two alternative bodies like a late 70's BMW 3 series or a Ford Capri.

Or something Lancia Delta'ish for the RTB?

I think the races would definitely look a bit more interesting.

(Talking about looks: why were the rims changed in the last patch. Does anyone prefer them over the old ones?)

[BlakjeKaas]

you forgot one little thing:

aerodynamics, when this will be generated by it's 3d model the cars aren't the same any more.

[Bandit77]

you forgot one little thing:

aerodynamics, when this will be generated by it's 3d model the cars aren't the same any more.

ARE the aerodynamics really calculated by the 3d model? :shrug:

[Jakg]

No - atm the aero stuff is just one single number (0.35?) for all road - cars.

A better point is that iirc the "weight" of the body affects the weight of the car...

[ajp71]

No - atm the aero stuff is just one single number (0.35?) for all road - cars.

A better point is that iirc the "weight" of the body affects the weight of the car...

LFS's aerodynamics will be a lot more complicated than just one number you quoted (presumably that's a coefficient of drag), an aerodynamic centre and a resultant force from moving in all 7 degrees of freedom are the bare essentials for each car and if the CoD is the same then frontal area must be modeled to get vaguely correct aerodynamics.

[Dac]

this is another example of what is bad for LFS.

[Homeless_Drunk]

What's the point? They'll still have the same engine under the hood...they will still have the same wheelbase and track, same suspension and same everything else...seems like an awful lot of useless effort to gain nothing but pointless visuals...

If I want to drive a bunch of cars that look different but all handle the same I'll go play Gran Turismo....

[noskillz]

-1 After a week half of the field will be Nissan Skylines, regardless of which car they are using.

[Riders Motion]

LFS is not a RC game. :wave2:

[Bandit77]

What's the point? They'll still have the same engine under the hood...they will still have the same wheelbase and track, same suspension and same everything else...seems like an awful lot of useless effort to gain nothing but pointless visuals...

If I want to drive a bunch of cars that look different but all handle the same I'll go play Gran Turismo....

So in your opinion we should forget about the skinning too, right? I mean - in the end there's no point but visuals... and they cost bandwith and CPU power. Why do we have buildings and trees surrounding the tracks? CPU power could be spent on more important things like airstream effect on tyre profile...

Did you ever think about the fact that LFS's output actually ONLY HAS three dimensions, namely VISUALS (probably about 98% of the experience), audio and some force on your wheel?

It'd be just an easy way of having a more heterogenous field without having to really add cars. Of course I'm not against adding another bunch of cars to every class.


... but oh yeah, let's rather have the devs add "realistic" features. just like our beloved clutch-temperature gimmick. this was sssssooooo great and took the realism to a completely new level. this made LFS clutches more realistic than real ones.

[Homeless_Drunk]

So in your opinion we should forget about the skinning too, right? I mean - in the end there's no point but visuals... and they cost bandwith and CPU power. Why do we have buildings and trees surrounding the tracks? CPU power could be spent on more important things like airstream effect on tyre profile...

Did you ever think about the fact that LFS's output actually ONLY HAS three dimensions, namely VISUALS (probably about 98% of the experience), audio and some force on your wheel?

It'd be just an easy way of having a more heterogenous field without having to really add cars. Of course I'm not against adding another bunch of cars to every class.


... but oh yeah, let's rather have the devs add "realistic" features. just like our beloved clutch-temperature gimmick. this was sssssooooo great and took the realism to a completely new level. this made LFS clutches more realistic than real ones.

I'm glad you decided to read way to far into my post...did you do that just for the sake of argument?

What's the name of this thread?

Different bodies for the same car (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=882094#post882094)

What are we talking about?

Different bodies for the same car (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=882094#post882094)

Did I ever mention skins? no

I simply said that different bodies on the existing cars to make it seem like there are more cars would be pointless...

Skins can serve a point...they can help you distinguish driver, team and whatever else...what would the point of having different bodies be other than just to make LFS seem like it has more cars than it really does?

Your last comment was just completely off topic and had nothing to do with anything that was said within this thread...but if you can't understand why quite a few people want a more realistic "RACING SIMULATION" then maybe you are playing the wrong game?

[Bandit77]

naaa, I didn't read that far into your post. it's a question about where to put the limit between "necessary visual gimmicks" and "pure eyecandy".

I mentioned skins because their point is questionable too. For distinction we have the "N" key. Usually the skins only give you a rough clue anyway. Different bodies would even be of help in these situations.

Nevertheless I love the skinning feature, because for me it adds something enjoyable to the game.

The point of different bodies would be - as mentioned - another feature to customize your car, simply because some people like to do so or would rather drive something that resembles a Lancia Delta than a Toyota Celica. No big point, I admit. Just something that adds a bit of joy - and isn't hard to do, most of all.
And as race cars of the same series have fairly similar specs anyway, and tweaking setups change the car's characteristics you wouldn't even feel as if you were driving a VW Polo with a Toyota Yaris Body.


As for my last comment in the last post: ok, it was a bit over the top. But sooner or later we will come to this "realistic, desperately needed features first" argument, and the clutch-feature just made me laugh and cry at the same time. Cry, because it's sooooooo far off, and laugh, because... yeah, we want more realistic features and get something half hearted we'd be better off without.

Believe me, I'm not against realism. You just have to see that you don't make a game experience more realistic only by loading it with "realistic" calculations. It's important how it feels in the end... (X-Plane vs. MS Flightsimulator is a very nice example)

I don't want to elaborate this to I don't know where, but do you know this Simpsons episode where Milhouse becomes Fallout Boy? Where the crew has to paint horses as cows, because cows wouldn't look like cows in a movie? Every joke bears a bit of truth. :thumb:

[wheel4hummer]

And as race cars of the same series have fairly similar specs anyway, and tweaking setups change the car's characteristics you wouldn't even feel as if you were driving a VW Polo with a Toyota Yaris Body.

The XFR and the UFR are the same class, and they feel much different.

[MoonForce]

... and the clutch-feature just made me laugh and cry at the same time. Cry, because it's sooooooo far off, and laugh, because... yeah, we want more realistic features and get something half hearted we'd be better off without.


i c ya point, and i am with ya, but nevertheless the dev(s) told often enough that fast features that are done for s2 final or s3 that can be implemented fast into current version, should and will be implemented, next to further develop of final stage.

hope u get my point...

[Zen321]

I don't get the OP's logic...

He is for realism though he whines when a feature closer to reality is added...

Don't take me wrong, I'm totally for novelty, but I reckon that the core of LFS' experience is how driving feels. And how driving feels (in my mind and I bet in the mind of 96% of the community) is how does your car respond to your inupts and to the inputs made by the bumps, other players, etc.

Realism doesn't only and solely mean photorealism nor feelingorealism. GRID completely outclasses LFS on the graphics field, but I never found a game that simulated that well what I feel when I'm pushing a REAL car in REAL life. Of course, Real life is more beautiful, but if my computer can work on providing me sensation closer to real life rather than graphics closer to real life, then i'll take it. (That's why i really hated GRID).

If you want a feature that will be more realistic and more appealing to the eyes, then I guess providing more sense of speed (I won't suggest how, since it's the devs' job) would be terrific, since the inside view (even if it(s the best for driving) doesn't really gives the impression of going at 100mph when it's the case.

[Bandit77]

I don't get the OP's logic...

He is for realism though he whines when a feature closer to reality is added...



I think you understood "made me laugh and cry" too literally. :D
The clutch overheating does NOT take LFS closer to reality.

The clutch feature is a good point for a realism-discussion (which actually shouldn't be done in this topic) though.

What is realism, or what kind of realism do you want?

Yes, clutches CAN overheat. But do they in reality? Hardly ever. So having no overheating clutch in the sim is closer to reality than having one that overheats after 6 hillstarts (with a road-like setting).


---

I agree with the rest of your post. I can't even switch to another racing / car sim, as they all feel totally arcade after having played LFS.

[BackMarker]

+1 for the concept although implementation might prove to be impractical.

[BlakjeKaas]

Still, IF/WHEN we get realtime generated aerodynamics, this gives problems.

Because then everyone choose the car with the best aerodynamics, and all the others are useless. (you're not racing an XRG to an XRG with better aerodynamics when you know the XRG is slower)

+ you must have the same dimensions etc. etc. etc. etc.

[Bandit77]

+ you must have the same dimensions etc. etc. etc. etc.

... or have the program calculate the aerodynamics based on only one of the different bodies.

I know, I know... realism-for-the-sake-of-realism junkies might have their problems with this, but - as far as I understand - at the moment all the road cars have the same aerodynamics, and no one cares, most probably because it's irrelevant.

As long as two added bodies for an XFG don't look like this:

http://www.thomasayorke.com/images/box_car_1.jpg
http://thecontaminated.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/aptera-1.jpg

... it won't be much of a pain to know that their aerodynamics are based on the same old XFG shape.

[Tomclark21]

If I want to drive a bunch of cars that look different but all handle the same I'll go play Gran Turismo....

I think this is an idea which could be easily quenched by having more cars in each class. As for the Granturismo comment, are you sure you can't feel the difference. I can feel difference in handling and performance in every car.

I think we should hope for more cars in each class rather than the same cars in each class with different bodies. As well as the XRG a Celica or maybe a small mid-engined car would be nice too.

[Bandit77]

I think we should hope for more cars in each class

Absolutely. Although I think that within one class you will never have a lot of different (meaning really different) cars. That just goes with the meaning of classes.

[BlakjeKaas]

Absolutely. Although I think that within one class you will never have a lot of different (meaning really different) cars. That just goes with the meaning of classes.

and it's not much harder to implent than the original idea.

Point is, the original idea is pretty hard.

[danthebangerboy]

personally, i think a mk1 granada should definately be a contender for a new xrg body, It would add a 1970's ford aspect to the game, something that would be fun! I apologise for my horrific cutting and pasting work, but you get the idea!!

Behold, the XRGranada!!

[Bandit77]

I apologise for my horrific cutting and pasting work, but you get the idea!!

Dude! Change the colors to something psychedelic, smooth out the edges, and you have a cool picture. I like it. And I'd definitely love to see such cars in LFS.


and it's not much harder to implent than the original idea.
No, it's not hard to implent a new car, I guess... but make one that is equal to the others, so racing them has a point, might be tricky. THAT's why I thought about the cheapo-version of just having different bodies.

Point is, the original idea is pretty hard.
I don't see the difficulties, really.

[Woz]

pointless stupid idea that is a WASTE of dev time. Exactly the same car just looking different brings NOTHING to LFS.

In reality the time taken for different models is 95%+ of the work required to create a new car in LFS, just look at tweak. Come on people, THINK about it before you post this sort of IDEA and also........ search. It has come up LOADS of time before with EXACTLY the same responses.

[Bandit77]

pointless stupid idea that is a WASTE of dev time. Exactly the same car just looking different brings NOTHING to LFS.

actually, whenever you change anything in the setup, it's not exactly the same car anymore.

and if you want to go "oh yes, it is", then please tell me how far "the same" goes and when "a different" starts.

and also........ search. It has come up LOADS of time before with EXACTLY the same responses.

show me.

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EDIT / ADDENDUM
-----

pointless stupid idea that is a WASTE of dev time.

This reveals a lot. You're afraid of the devs implenting something you don't like before something you desperately want. What a mature attitude: afraid not even of a loss but of a delayed gain... I read of LFS being a sandbox in a thread (possibly racing vs. drifting) - and that just hit the nail on the head.
And obviously you're not sure if this idea is really so pointless and stupid - because if it WAS and no one wanted such things anyway, you wouldn't have to bother.
And who do you want to convince that it's useless? The devs? Possible supporters? Me?
In the end saying "I don't like the idea because of this and that..." would be enough. The rest is just self-revelation... and believe me, you're not looking good.

[Woz]

actually, whenever you change anything in the setup, it's not exactly the same car anymore.

Power to weight and balance remain the same and that is the key. For the car there will still be the single set most use per track

and if you want to go "oh yes, it is", then please tell me how far "the same" goes and when "a different" starts.

Drive the 3 different TBO classes cars and then tell me they are the same with different bodies.

sigh

show me.

Here is one I found with VERY little effort

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=39817

and another
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=37589

should I go on?


Different body shapes/kits/wings is something that has come up again and again in this forum AND rsc before it. As I said just search.

sigh

This reveals a lot. You're afraid of the devs implenting something you don't like before something you desperately want.

It is not that I dont like the idea

sigh again. I will try m o r e s l o w l y

As I said, creating a new body for a car is actuall well over 90% the work require for a NEW car. Is that really so VERY hard to understand. Looks like it is.

So YOU want NEW bodies on OLD cars over NEW CARS because the workload is ALMOST exactly the same!!!!

Shows a lot about you :)

rotf

[Bandit77]

Drive the 3 different TBO classes cars and then tell me they are the same with different bodies.

that's absolutely NOT my point.


Here is one I found with VERY little effortthis goes in a very slightly similar direction. but it's definitely not "exactly the same" as you called it. I, personally, still think it's different enough to open up a new thread (obviously) and to expect different responses.


As I said, creating a new body for a car is actuall well over 90% the work require for a NEW car. Is that really so VERY hard to understand.
Don't I? I totally understand what you mean, if I believe this 90% theory is another thing. Remember that LFS-models have no moving parts except for the suspension, which is probably always the same model with slight adjustments. So I honestly don't BELIEVE the effort is this big.
A day/model/person? No time? Make it a contest!



So YOU want NEW bodies on OLD cars over NEW CARS because the workload is ALMOST exactly the same!!!!
NO. I did NOT say this. I'm fine with this. If it's really that small a step from model to complete car - add complete cars.

[Woz]

Don't I? I totally understand what you mean, if I believe this 90% theory is another thing. Remember that LFS-models have no moving parts except for the suspension, which is probably always the same model with slight adjustments. So I honestly don't BELIEVE the effort is this big.
A day/model/person? No time? Make it a contest!

You have not been around LFS long enough to know what the original LFSTweak was capable of.

You can change the wheel base, wheel size, tyre sizes, engine type configuration and capacity, drive train etc with just a few sliders. Want a monster truck, click click click done.

The key with the LFS engine is that there is just a single physics engine that can do it all. It has probably become a bit more complex now we have different susspension types etc but I am willing to bet all are as east to switch as anything else.

The engine tone would even adjust as you changed from small 4banger to big V etc.

So yes the body (Which includes all the inside bodywork as well is most of the work

HTH

[swingkid]

i like the idea because it does count how it looks around the car when you race
if it doesn't , well then all the beautiful graphics that are made off the circuit and billboards are wasted time!

[RS1T]

So in your opinion we should forget about the skinning too, right? I mean - in the end there's no point but visuals... and they cost bandwith and CPU power. Why do we have buildings and trees surrounding the tracks? CPU power could be spent on more important things like airstream effect on tyre profile...

Did you ever think about the fact that LFS's output actually ONLY HAS three dimensions, namely VISUALS (probably about 98% of the experience), audio and some force on your wheel?

It'd be just an easy way of having a more heterogenous field without having to really add cars. Of course I'm not against adding another bunch of cars to every class.


... but oh yeah, let's rather have the devs add "realistic" features. just like our beloved clutch-temperature gimmick. this was sssssooooo great and took the realism to a completely new level. this made LFS clutches more realistic than real ones.

this doesent deserve a +1, it deserves a +100

[Kaoru]

I think that LFS should be something funny to play, nice to see and quite physic-realistic, but it should not seems like a sim for driving schools, with 1 or 2 cars for every class, just to show how it works.

If it is a racing sim, it must take you to a wider choice of "look" for the cars. For example, if you run a championship, you must have (near) the same performances but you can decide the shape of the car you want. If you want a mono-brand challenge, you have only to say "only XXX cars accepted!" .