LFS vs. the rest of racing games?

[Aahz]

So there is this movie (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5587010895482106872&q=%22Gran+turismo%22) where a guy from "Top Gear" compares driving in Gran Turismo 4 and in real life on Laguna Seca.

Aside from it being a generally interesting movie, it got me thinking. I played just about every popular racing game there is. Nascar, GT series, Forza, NFS(back from the 1st one)...you name it.

I stumbled on LFS a couple of months back, and, like many of us, tried to collect the jaw from my floor for the first couple of days. The level of realism was simply astounding for me!

It took me a couple of months to decide to switch to the S2 license, and I damn am I happy I did! There is so much depth to this game, so much realism, that I believe I will hardly ever switch to another racing game.

But personal talk aside, the guy in this video drove a 1:41 on Laguna Seca in Honda NSX. In real life, he only managed 1:57(!) That is a huge difference in time. I know that there is room for improvement(on the GTi, I was able to come down to 1:34 in a month, but I think that is my limit, due to the fact that I use a gamepad), but he is a skilled driver, and yet the guy lost 16 seconds!

He goes on to say that, first of all, it's the fear factor. He can't physically avoid the fear of braking late before the screwcork turn. Second, GT doesn't simulate certain physical aspects, such as brake heating.

Now, this got me thinking. What if he tried the same thing, but in Live for Speed? Would the realism level in LFS be good enough to, say, make him drive just a few seconds difference between virtual and real life?

For one, I believe it'd be definetely more realistic. We know that, that's why we love LFS. I even believe that LFS simulates a part of the fear factor. Even on the GTi, in my first weeks, I couldn't put myself to break late enough. Or that feeling when this light car is doing 190km/h and you can almost feel that one mistake with the brake, one wrong turn of the wheel, one shift-down too quick and you're gonna end up against the wall. It's beautiful.

It got me wondering, if maybe we can write the guys at "Top Gear" to try out LFS, and see what would they come up with?

[Vendetta]

They could try it, but they would have nothing to compare it to since LFS doesnt have any real tracks in it. They would have to make two exact autocross courses.

[J.B.]

There has already been a good discussion on the subject.
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=4070

[tristancliffe]

1) GT4 isn't realistic. The cars are too fast around the majority of tracks, and don't react properly, meaning you can take faster lines that physics would allow in real life.

2) Jeremy Clarkson is a journalist, not a professional driver. He's good for a journalist, but still NOWHERE NEAR the talent of most racing drivers.

3) Yes fear comes into it, but not as much as 16 seconds accounts for.

4) Who knows if LFS would be closer. We can't compare properly, but I suspect it would (be closer, not bang on). But at the same time I think that the main problem with games that have 'real' cars and 'real' tracks is that every single little deficiency shows up. A tenth there, 0.1G here, 1kg over there etc.

5) GT4 is made for 12 year olds and is designed to be fun with a gamepad. The single purpose of GT4 is to make money, not recreate real life. If it was realistic, it would be unplayable with a pad (and I can drive it with no aids on).

[Aahz]

There has already been a good discussion on the subject.
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=4070


Me bad! "Use the search, Luke"!

[speedykev]

makes me think:scratchch
how much money would it cost to get the copy rights to make a real race track in LFS.

[Bob Smith]

They would have to make two exact autocross courses.
I created a replica of an autocross course for Warper, the track is what is being used in the German Formula Student Championships this year. Assuming I did a good enough job, you could compare the MRT5 with the vehicles competing there.

But still, it's not identical (either car or track). I think the ideal solution is for someone to build Blackwood. Ideally on the field behind my house. Portsmouth doesn't need water resovouirs anyway.:tilt:

[Vain]

A license for a real track would certainly cost more than to get Scawen to make us a new physics patch.
-> Postponed!
:)

Except, of course, if LFS is going to get the Nordschleife. Then I'll switch teams and tell everyone who would favor a physics patch over the Nordschleife that he is a moron. ;)

Vain

[AndroidXP]

@Bob Smith: Hehe, yes, why bother with licensing fees anyway? Make them pay us so they're allowed to rebuild the wonderful LFS tracks :D

[J.B.]

@Bob Smith: Hehe, yes, why bother with licensing fees anyway? Make them pay us so they're allowed to rebuild the wonderful LFS tracks :D

Yes, I think it's about time this whole liscensing issue is turned round. Having a car or track in GT4 must be one of the best advertising a company could ever get in the under 30 year old group. It would be interesting to know if the release of GT4 had any influence on the number of visitors to the Nordschleife. I can't imagine that it didn't cause an increase.

[deggis]

But personal talk aside, the guy in this video drove a 1:41 on Laguna Seca in Honda NSX. In real life, he only managed 1:57(!) That is a huge difference in time. I know that there is room for improvement(on the GTi, I was able to come down to 1:34 in a month, but I think that is my limit, due to the fact that I use a gamepad), but he is a skilled driver, and yet the guy lost 16 seconds!
Difference on Nordschleife is nearly 1½ minutes. What a realistic game we have! :D

Real life track record:
"Sports car":
Derek Bell / Stefan Bellof (Porsche 956 Group C)
6:25.91 (194.33 km/h) in the 1000-km race 1983

And in GT4:
04:44.650 Toyota Minolta Toyota 88C-V Race Car '89 (Group C car too)

They could try it, but they would have nothing to compare it to since LFS doesnt have any real tracks in it. They would have to make two exact autocross courses.
But they wouldn't be interested in making a insert about LFS because it's not media sexy enough (GTR, GT Legends etc. might be).

5) GT4 is made for 12 year olds and is designed to be fun with a gamepad. The single purpose of GT4 is to make money, not recreate real life. If it was realistic, it would be unplayable with a pad (and I can drive it with no aids on).
We simmers always remember to mention that point. But on the other hand you can play LFS with a keyboard/mouse or pad. Of course it's 100x harder than playing GT4.

[Hankstar]

2) Jeremy Clarkson is a journalist, not a professional driver. He's good for a journalist, but still NOWHERE NEAR the talent of most racing drivers.

5) GT4 is made for 12 year olds and is designed to be fun with a gamepad. The single purpose of GT4 is to make money, not recreate real life. If it was realistic, it would be unplayable with a pad (and I can drive it with no aids on).


I must pull you up on a technicality there tc: He's definitely not a racer, but I think the fact that Big Jez is paid to drive cars and then go on tv and talk about them makes him, by definition, a professional driver. Technically :) He also happens to have the coolest job in tv history. The bastard. I recall an old-ish episode where he was driving an EVO VIII and was keeping up with a BTCC driver who was in a Lambo Murcielago. Not bad for a 7-foot journo ...

Also, I thought the Gran Turismo series was made primarily to showcase every single bloody model of Nissan Skyline ever made in the history of the world including the crap ones, and making money was an afterthought :D

deggis: a 4.44 at Nurby? :rofl: Yep, it's the ultimate driving simulator alright :nod::D I mean, it's awesome fun for battling friends at home after a couple of Guinness cans, but a sim it aint!

[ayrton senna 87]

clarkson is a shocking driver but a great presenter! a satelite dish faced comedian (Jimmy Carr) was 4 seconds faster than him, that is something to be ashamed of!

[CMoney86]

A friend of mine I met, Earl, Euroboss F1 champ. Told me... Everyone has a set speed they feel comfortable with. Driving a car past what you think is safe(but still within the cars limits) is the hard part. Sometimes you have to keep on the gas just a little more when you feel like you should mash the break.

[Gimpster]

The simple awnser is this. We need a masive autocross area in LFS so we can replicate the Top Gear test track, an old airfield. Then they can test the Race About in both LFS and in real life. That would be the easiest to do aside from building and auto cross track in real life and LFS and running to two head to head in that venue.

The tools are there just takes some one to get them to do it. Having direct data between the two would also be a benifit to LFS as far as getting the physics nailed down better.

[kamkorPL]

I only wish people could notice the Enthusia Proffesional Racing that I could even call a simulator. Ofcourse to feel it you have to drive in 900 degrees mode. Steering is waaaay better than in the so called "The real driving simulator" pff. In GT4 you steer with your wheel a little, in enthusia hovewer, you have to do this like you would in real life - that really makes it fun. On top of that, every car feels different, I would even say very different. And why did enthusia get very low sales? Well, obviously releasing a sim on a console isn't best marketing idea. And another question, why most of the GT4 players think enthusia suck? Because in their opinion GT4 is real life, and since Enthusia doesn't feel like it - 'it suxx' :pillepall.
If developers did EPR for PC, it would have been a very sucessful title among simracers. Even with its arcadey gameplay structure, because what matters in this title is you, your car, and the road. :eclipseeh

[Smax]

Enthusia took a battering in all the reviews I saw [admittedly not many] but poor reviews don't exactly help sales I suppose. I'm not going to comment on whether or not it's any good, since I've never played it.

I guess the thing to bear in mind with anything Clarkson related is that he's a journalist/entertainer/broadcaster, who does genuinely love cars, but Top Gear's gotta think of the viewing figures first, a fact born out by the fact that it's become much more entertainment programme/exotic car showcase and much less serious motoring programme over the past few years.

On the subject of Gran Turismo, well I can manage just under 5 minutes for the ring on a joypad in the Minolta Toyota, but I'm damned if the same joypad can get my Fox 'round Blackwood in under 1.14 so yeah no contest, LFS is a "sim" GT's a "game"

[danowat]

5) GT4 is made for 12 year olds and is designed to be fun with a gamepad. The single purpose of GT4 is to make money, not recreate real life. If it was realistic, it would be unplayable with a pad (and I can drive it with no aids on).
Does that mean that as LFS is playable with a pad with no aids its unrealistic?.

Dan,

[kamkorPL]

Enthusia took a battering in all the reviews I saw [admittedly not many] but poor reviews don't exactly help sales I suppose. I'm not going to comment on whether or not it's any good, since I've never played it.

Same thing happend with Richard Burns Rally on ps2. And on pc as well. Sim sites didn't review Enthusia, what do you expect?

[KurtG85]

(note:when i say 'rl' in the following, im referring to 'real life')
I played Enthusia after playing gt3 and 4 for a long time. I was looking for the most realistic driving simulator i could find and i of course hadnt heard of lfs yet. Actually i think in my quest for the perfect simulator i had downloaded the demo of lfs s1 and played it, but the physics were so wildly different from gt3 and 4 that i thought there was no way this could be realistic and dismissed it as sub standard. Just innocent ignorance, wasnt being a 'fanboy'. Anyway, enthusia is worlds above gt4, i thought they butchered the semi realistic physics from gt3 in gt4. Enthusias physics are much more convincing than either gt3 or 4. While i hadnt played enthusia for more than a few months before i got addicted to lfs s2, the one thing i do remember is that, like in gt3 and 4, the way to get around a (tight) corner fastest is to mash the brake in as hard as you can and steer about as hard as you can, which conveniently sends the back end into a nice little, easily controllable, perfect oversteer slide. Braking being like one of the most difficult and important parts of race driving, i was kind of disgusted with the braking physics of gt3, 4 and enthusia once i learned how incredibly subtle you need to be in rl braking (or the more realistic braking physics in LFS, that is).
Also, comparing virtual track times to real life track times is a ridiculous way to try and measure how realistic the games driving physics are in my opinion. I mean... duh, like someone said, there are going to be many variables that will cause differences which are trivial to deciding if a game has a very realistic feel. You simply need people who have raced in reality a good deal to describe which game more closely simulates the act of precision driving. No one know better than them. We all know there are plenty of poser fan boys who like to rant how they drove in the le mans 4 times or that they took there car onto a parking lot once and spun it around a few times and they know gt3 is the closest to reality by far. Honesty can be hard to come by on the internet obviously.
As far as all the reading ive done on the physics of racing, and my limited rl driving experience, lfs is the closest to rl by far.

PS. I heard a quote of Kaz. (the designer of gran turismo series) where he was dissing enthusia. He was saying that konami forgets that they are making a game, and that when you make the driving too realistic its not enjoyable by the average person anymore.
Well, that was the last time i touched the gt games anymore after I heard those blasphemous words come out of his mouth. ;)

[Funnybear]

If you want this on Top Gear (which I don't actually think is such a far fetched idea, it is after all a programme about cars and LFS is a racing sim involving, cars) then do the work for them. Once the new physics is out, get the big Autox area made, or even the actual Top Gear track if it can be done acuratly enough then pitch it to them. Get hold of the right car (the raceabout or whatever it is) do all the work for them and you might find they might go for it.

Like anything, if they can get a story for free, and a failry entertaining one at that they are going to look more favourable on it.

It does need to be accurate though. Can The stig get good times on both . . . etc etc.

Don't sell yoursleves short, just needs a bit of work and it could well happen . . .

[Hyperactive]

I just wouldn't say that the the Gran Turismos are total crap. Sure, they unrealistic, but I really don't believe that their goal was even to make a realistic game. I'd say that their goal was to make a playable game, realistic to a point. To me the gran turismo series have been quite enjoyable, even if it has major flaws in physics and everywhere. But I still enjoyed then, rarely nowadays simply because LFS is more interesting to me.

As to the comment "it is not a sim if you can play it with a gamepad". Bs. It's all about how the developers of the game do it. As to the marketing slogan, "The real driving simulator"... of course it is not true, it's marketing in the same way as all flying games call themselves simulator or simulations. Or the same thing was when Rally Trophy was released. The devs of that game said things like it had the most precise physics engine seen in any racing game, etc... And when Colin Mcrae rally was released, everybody thought it was quite realistic. Today saying that CM1 is realistic would be a bad joke.

[KurtG85]

Speaking of richard burns rally, first, does the ps2 version have the same physics as the pc version? Also, do I need a chip to run a pal or whatever version on my american ps2?

Agreed on the above comments about a gamepad not being capable of controlling a sim.

In gt4 the strong wind sound really adds to the sense of speed I think. That should be incorporated into the next lfs. The wind sound in there now is rather cheesy, unconvincing and weak sounding.

Anyone know any hotlap boards for enthusia racing? Or anyone who wants to hotlap with me got an aim name?

[tristancliffe]

Does that mean that as LFS is playable with a pad with no aids its unrealistic?.

Dan,

It's not AS playable, is it. How many WR's do you have with a joypad? How many WR's do joypad players have in GT4 - a larger percentage I guess.

Personally I, and the VAST majority of LFSers would really stuggle with a pad, so I salute you that you are capable of it (more so if you're a freaky type who uses two analogue sticks, cos that just hurts my brain). But I bet all of us (with a few daft exceptions) could do reasonably well in GT4 with a joypad, with no aids on, fairly quickly.

So, to sum up - neeeeeeerrrrrr (you'll have to say that 'word' just right to get me full meaning, but pffffff wouldn't be far off either :p)

[XCNuse]

^^ how the ?! how'd you get a PAL version of a game while living in the US...

as for the cost of licensing a track.. expensive.. lol VERY expensive at that. Obviously depending on the track, but you'd be better off going out and buying a dodge viper with that money

btw, any of you british guys, have any of you ever thought of emailing top gear and telling them about LFS? i wonder what they would make of it (obviously people here in the US would never see it.. unfortunately they canceled top gear on the discovery channel last year.. kinda sucks)
obviously now wouldnt be the best time, i would wait a while until the physics are better

[Breizh]

What Funkybear said. LFS isn't going to win any points for its aesthetics (except the interface), it would have to have an undeniable authenticity to it.
The sounds would make the audience laugh.

[Mattesa]

I only wish people could notice the Enthusia Proffesional Racing that I could even call a simulator. Ofcourse to feel it you have to drive in 900 degrees mode.

I love Enthusia.

Love it.

I'm not going to be afraid to say that for me, Enthusia feels more "natural" than LFS in some maneuvers.

I encourage everyone to watch this video (http://media.ps2.gamespy.com/media/680/680537/vids_1.html)! It shows side by side comparisons of a real Miata on an auto-x course, verses the same car on the same course in Enthusia.

A screenshot of the video:
http://individual.utoronto.ca/matt_remix/media/enthu.jpg

The top image is the real car, and the bottom image is Enthusia! :thumb:

[Messiah]

I created a replica of an autocross course for Warper, the track is what is being used in the German Formula Student Championships this year. Assuming I did a good enough job, you could compare the MRT5 with the vehicles competing there.

But still, it's not identical (either car or track). I think the ideal solution is for someone to build Blackwood. Ideally on the field behind my house. Portsmouth doesn't need water resovouirs anyway.:tilt:

That really sounds like the way to go :D

I only wish people could notice the Enthusia Proffesional Racing that I could even call a simulator.

Aye... the physics demo video doesn't look that bad and you're right... one has to try it out at first but it looks promising. I also like the Trailer, some "racing" would've been nice though... :thumb:

Unfortunately PS2 + Equip + Game would be too expensive for me and in he end, I'd miss the simple and great online mode, I guess :shrug:

[Tweaker]

Interesting video. But I still think there is no simulation yet that has a good representation of how a car really moves. Even in that video when the Miata is sliding around the course (1st short slide), the recovery of the real car has more 'snap' at the end.... while Enthusia just looks far too solid and not 'fidgity' -- just like in all simulations. LFS could do this if it focused on factory built cars with soft suspension, but you don't see this often. From time to time, I make soft sets on purpose to get a realistic feel. They do perform in a way much like this Miata, but don't show the 'detail' of shaking or vibrations with the wheels/suspension.

I gotta say that the Enthusia video above is pretty neat, but it doesn't do justice for how the game feels I'll bet. I have yet to try Enthusia, so I wouldn't know... but a video of a car that appears similar to realife doesn't mean that it feels like reallife. I mean.... they didn't even have a FF wheel it looks like, would be silly to not have the wheel snapback (and it didn't).

[Gimpster]

There are plenty of small tracks and car companies that woudl probaly jump at the chance to get their track or car in a realistic sim. The free advertising would make it worth while for small track owners, Like Pacific Raceway in Kent, Washington.

[danowat]

It's not AS playable, is it. How many WR's do you have with a joypad? How many WR's do joypad players have in GT4 - a larger percentage I guess.

Personally I, and the VAST majority of LFSers would really stuggle with a pad, so I salute you that you are capable of it (more so if you're a freaky type who uses two analogue sticks, cos that just hurts my brain). But I bet all of us (with a few daft exceptions) could do reasonably well in GT4 with a joypad, with no aids on, fairly quickly.

So, to sum up - neeeeeeerrrrrr (you'll have to say that 'word' just right to get me full meaning, but pffffff wouldn't be far off either :p)

As long as the device is analouge, it, in theory, is not really much different to a wheel, I am not the fastest in the world, but I am pretty quick, and more importantly consistant.
And yes, its a dual analouge, its what I am comfortable with, people shouldnt discount it just because its not what they think is best.
Also, I revisited GT4 last night, a Mitsu EVO XIII on the Nurby, with, and this is VERY important for GT4, road tyres, and I am sorry, but for a console game its bloody good, IRL the Evo can lap Nurby in 8'05, I can't get under 8'30.
There seems to be a lot of snobbery, not only in LFS but in every "sim" forum, on both sims/games and controllers, can't understand why :shrug:, I enjoy GT4, I enjoy LFS, I enjoy GTL, I enjoy RBR, I am good at all of them, with a pad, whats so wrong with that?.

Oh, and before someone chimes in saying I have no idea what I am talking about, I am currently testing and practising for the Mighty Mini's series IRL, so I know a bit about real racing.

Dan,

[KurtG85]

Anyone in here that has done a good deal of real life circuit racing and has played enthusia as well as lfs? Which do you think is more realistic in terms of driving physics/feel? I honestly dont trust anyone else, how in the heck else could you know unless you have a good deal of racing experience?

I played alot of enthusia again today, some things i noticed about it in comparison to lfs: you can slam on the brakes full force and turn in hard and you will slide straight for a bit but then you will get fast turn in, there definetly isnt as much sim info being modeled to the cars suspension; meaning the cars have a much more floaty feel all the time, whereas in lfs you can feel how every little dip and bump in the road wants to effect your cars path, and the force feedback, of course, is nowhere near as good as lfs (im using dfp). Its hard to compare closely for me because im so used to driving in 240 degree steering instead of 900 like enthusia requires. I might try playing both on 900 degree mode back and forth and note some differences if anyone gives a dam. I dont have the knowledge to declare one more realistic than the other though.

[deggis]

Speaking of richard burns rally, first, does the ps2 version have the same physics as the pc version? Also, do I need a chip to run a pal or whatever version on my american ps2?
Nope. There are differences. Never played PS2 version but I've read that PC version has more (realistic) grip and probably lots of other tweaks too. And if you have a PC that can run LFS, it should run RBR fine too. You can't get addon cars for the PS2 version. :)

There are also minor differences in sounds and graphics. In sound PC version is probably better because of the great sound mods. Of course PC version also looks better, though they removed the shining/glare effect from the PC version, dunno why.

[KurtG85]

No, dont tease me so... i dont think my computer can run richard burns. Its a compaq presario 2100 laptop. 448 mb of ram, amd athlon xp. I know nothin about computers, if it werent obvious. I can barely run lfs with all graphics at minimum.

Here is a thread with alot of interesting comparison videos between real life/ enthusia and gran turismo 4. There are also some videos of driving/drifting in enthusia with the dfp in view. Theres also a video dissing on gt4 drifting which i can appreciate because gt4 broke my heart in that area after anticipating it for 2 years :(.

http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=69984

[Hallen]

Even if you had an experienced racer drive LFS, or any simulator, they are not going to be able to definitively tell you that LFS "feels real". They could tell you the parts that don't feel real, and they might be able to give some pointers on how to make certain aspects better, but they are not going to be able to say, "Yes, this is exactly like driving a real race car". The simple reason is that there is just too much difference between being in a real car and driving a computer in an air conditioned room. Sensory input is severely diminished, smells are missing, no real vibration, sound, heat, fear... it's all lacking. There is nothing anybody can really do about that with today's technology.
So, a real race car driver would be a benefit to the devs, but they would not be the "end all" answer for making a realistic sim.
I have flown some of the best aircraft simulators in the world. And although they do a good job of modeling the behaviour of a particular aircraft, they still fall short of flying exactly the same. For example, one airplane that I flew had a nasty tendency to drop a wing when in a stall if you were not in perfect trim (25,000lb airplane going into a spin... not fun). The simulator never did a good job of modeling this. It stalled and mushed forward.
I have flown MS Flight Sim quite a bit, and although it is very, very good, I still could not tell you that it perfectly models the physics.

[mrodgers]

....Sensory input is severely diminished, smells are missing, no real vibration, sound, heat, fear... it's all lacking....
So what your telling us is we need to build ourselves cockpits or homemade "sim seats" and mount a Harley Davidson motor to it and run it when we are racing? Then all the sensory input is there. You have the smell of the oil leaking all over the place, the vibration of the Harley motor, the sound of the "loud pipes saves lives" pipes, the heat from the motor, and the fear of the motor scattering underneath your seat! LOL, just kidding to all you Harley riders over here in the States. No offense :D .

[Aahz]

Personally I, and the VAST majority of LFSers would really stuggle with a pad, so I salute you that you are capable of it (more so if you're a freaky type who uses two analogue sticks, cos that just hurts my brain). But I bet all of us (with a few daft exceptions) could do reasonably well in GT4 with a joypad, with no aids on, fairly quickly.


Haha, you know, I'm exactly that freaky guy who uses a gamepad, with TWO analog sticks, one for turning, one for accelerating. But I guess being called a "freaky type" isn't really that bad, is it?:P

On topic: As someone mentioned, I think the idea of showcasing LFS at "Top Gear" is doable. What needs to be done is a fairly realistic imitation of one of their tracks, a car that is close to a real one, and they might just byte it.

[KurtG85]

Even if you had an experienced racer drive LFS, or any simulator, they are not going to be able to definitively tell you that LFS "feels real". They could tell you the parts that don't feel real, and they might be able to give some pointers on how to make certain aspects better, but they are not going to be able to say, "Yes, this is exactly like driving a real race car". The simple reason is that there is just too much difference between being in a real car and driving a computer in an air conditioned room. Sensory input is severely diminished, smells are missing, no real vibration, sound, heat, fear... it's all lacking. There is nothing anybody can really do about that with today's technology.
So, a real race car driver would be a benefit to the devs, but they would not be the "end all" answer for making a realistic sim.


Well... duh, lol. No offense meant.
Thats exactly what im looking for, like you said: experienced racers to tell us which game does the most parts best, or just general specifics of what they think different games do best as well as their faults driving physics and 'feel'-wise.

[B2B@300]

I have flown MS Flight Sim quite a bit, and although it is very, very good, I still could not tell you that it perfectly models the physics.

I suppose that it isn't or shouldn't be the aim of a sim to replace the real life racing experience, but rather to create an arena where the same skills that are required to be successful in RL racing are needed to be successful in the sim, on this base, as technology expands and our budgets allow :tilt: we can add components to make the experience more immersive. That is why I also don’t object to some “aids” in sims that make allowances for things which just can’t be replicated because of technology and financial restraints.

So when we ask if it feels right, what we really are asking is if we use x technique for racing in RL, does it give similar results in the sim? And if you learn new techniques in LFS can they be applied to RL?

Where LFS is streets ahead imo is that it is endeavouring to do this mainly for online play against other human races, rather than mainly against AI racers with online play as optional or as an afterthought. No matter how good AI are, I find them just plain boring in comparision to racing real live people :D

[Hallen]

That is why I also don’t object to some “aids” in sims that make allowances for things which just can’t be replicated because of technology and financial restraints.
:D

I agree completely with this. I know that there are some people who don't want anything that you would not see in a real car, but I feel that some of these "extra's" are necessary. The purity of the racing experience is not ruined.
Mr. Rodgers... no, I was not suggesting that, although it would be cool :D
The sims I have flown all have complete cockpits, with the actual instruments and controls from the real aircraft and all were full motion. This adds to the immersion, but it still ain't the same as the real thing. My point was that because of these differences and limitations, it is very, very hard to compare a sim to real life even for an experienced person.

[Mikey]

Licenses for cars and tracks are subject to who owns them. Some people will encourage the use while others will want booko bucks for it. I read a long time back on the racing legends site that team lotus didn't need any licenses thats why they were able to use and display the creation process of the lotus F1 car. While it was pretty common knowledge they were also modeling other cars which weren't shown (ferrari leman style 333 maybe?)

Look at LFS already 2 real life counter parts (raceabout and MRT), im sure they were done as side projects and included into the release. I think the main problem here is information, its all well and good trying to recreate a real life counter part, but the information (and resource) to get all the information is probably beyond the LFS team at this stage. Im sure that in future releases that content (cars and tracks) will outweight features (physics) when it comes to decide what will be done.

[deggis]

Even if you had an experienced racer drive LFS, or any simulator, they are not going to be able to definitively tell you that LFS "feels real".
Good point.

Another problem is that real racers need to have some kind of history of sim games (or even some kind of computer games). Give a game that is total arcade crap for some real life race driver who has never ever played games - and he will think that it's realistic. The prob is that he doens't know how realistic games can be today.

[AndroidXP]

Total arcade crap may be a bit exxagerated, butThe prob is that he doens't know how realistic games can be today.is totally true.

[deggis]

No he won't, unless he's seriously lacking brain cells.
Yes, I did exxagerate but for example Forza and GT4 are good examples of this. Have you seen that "Forza vs. Real Life" video where two ALMS drivers praises the game? Link: http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=5192&pl=game&type=wmv

And I remember Mikko Hirvonen (Finnish WRC driver) praising WRC 4 (that PS2 arcade rally serie) to be realistic in a Finnish game tv show. But those comments might (at least I hope so) have something to do with the fact that his co-driver had recorded pacenotes for the game...

[wien]

But those comments might (at least I hope so) have something to do with the fact that his co-driver had recorded pacenotes for the game...Oh they do.. We had Henning Solberg doing the same thing here in Norway. (His co-driver did the norwegian translation) Bought and paid for.

[Hyperactive]

And wasn't there a title called "Tommi Mäkinen Rally" at the same time as Colin McRae one. True realism. And there were some hi-class rallydrivers involved in the making of V-Rally (1st?). V-rally was said to be realistic by some magazines (those playstation geeks!), but at the time it was a joke even for me, 14 years old sim n00bie :)

Generally people involved in real life racing who say GTR/WRC rally/Carmageddon 2 is ultra realistic get paid for it. And they probably don't play others simulators. And defenately they wouldn't say that "some other sim B" is better if they get paid by the "sim A".

[Gabkicks]

My DFP broke so i haddnt played any racing sims at all for about 4 weeks. then yesterday i fixed my dfp. :0

the 1st game i played was GT Legends. the game felt much much better with a wheel than the ps2 controller i was using.

Then i played LFS and that totally blew away gt legends. Its just i feel so much more connected to the cars in LFS. the force feedback feels much better. :shrug:

Honestly... the only racing sims right now i would say are absolute must-buys are Live For Speed and Richard Burns rally. i've played alot of racing games but there are still a few popular ones i havent had the chance to... nascar sim racing being one of them

[deggis]

And wasn't there a title called "Tommi Mäkinen Rally" at the same time as Colin McRae one. True realism.
Nope, it was some years before it, Pentium I era. "Tommi Mäkinen Rally" was basicly a crappy money making sequel to "Mobil 1 RAC Rally" (pic: http://www.imagineer.co.jp/imagi_n/product/syokai/i_rally/rally1.gif) which was great. As far as I know Rally Championship was done by the same dev team that RAC Rally. RAC Rally even had very long special stages but the driving model wasn't anything near a simulator but we didn't have anything better back then. :)

But now that we have Richard Burns Rally it's easy to declare every other rally game being total crap (Rally Trophy being one exception). :)

[tinvek]

wow i'd forgotten about those huge stages :)

handling was very arcade but given the time ok

trying to remember what i played it on seem to think it was a p100 with 8meg mem and a huge 1.2 gig hard drive :thumb:

[jtr99]

On the subject of real life racers saying nice things about sims, I thought there was evidence that Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Martin Truex were both sincere fans of Papyrus's NR2003. Truex even went so far as to say this it contributed hugely to his success in his first season. This was in spite of them getting paid to say nice things about the vastly inferior EA game. Can any Americans back me up on this?

[Mr.Ferret]

what i would like to see is if they could get the devs ON topgear for an interview and bring along a copy of s2 to show them and do some tests or something? im not quite sure but i would really like to see clarkson have an interview with them :)

[Boris Lozac]

what i would like to see is if they could get the devs ON topgear for an interview and bring along a copy of s2 to show them and do some tests or something? im not quite sure but i would really like to see clarkson have an interview with them :)

Agree totally, but i would also wait for the full S2, and i would prefer Fifth gear over Top gear...
Anuway, Scawen is from England, i think there is a good chance for this to happen.. :)

[cannonfodder]

Given what the guy said about GT in the video, I think it would be better to wait before wanting to show it off on Top Gear. Not only until the tyre and aero issues are resolved, but until implementation of things like brake heat and fade, varying grip when on/off the racing line, and a fuller range of sounds. After all, wouldn't you want LFS to succeed in the aspects GT failed? :D

Looking at the easy time he had with the game though, it makes me wonder if they neglected to turn off the game's driving aids.:scratchch

[mrodgers]

Since this thread is titled "LFS vs. the rest of racing games?" and turned into a bit of a Top Gear thread, I want to get back to the "rest of racing games" with a question. What are your thoughts on GTLegends if you had tried it. I just downloaded the demo recently to try out. I haven't messed much with it because of the PC issues, but so far, it really feels crappy in the car feeling. The auto clutch system is horrible. It's like you have to rev it to 4000 rpm, then it dumps the clutch rather than feather it off like in LFS. I can't get any feedback in the FF and, though the sounds of the Corvette V8 is awesome, the feedback from scrub/skid sounds gives me nothing at all. The menu's are really arcadey/comic looking as well.

I browsed around the GTL section of RSC and noticed many LFS racers that I don't see here anymore. I never did try GTR to know what the difference was between it and GTL. I just wanted to try it because of the 60's/70's car era. So, what are your thoughts?

[deggis]

So, what are your thoughts?
Pretty much the same. I have only the demo. Horrible FF and driving feel in general. Physics are even worse than GTR. I hoped it would only FEEL as good as it looks. I think the sounds are a draw-back from GTR, as the whole game too.

Too bad if some LFS players has moved to GTL. It feels like most of the players who really dig GTL think "These cars are just so cool, who cares about the physics? Did I already mention the cool cars?". :shrug:

[Gabkicks]

My DFP broke so i haddnt played any racing sims at all for about 4 weeks. then yesterday i fixed my dfp. :0

the 1st game i played was GT Legends. the game felt much much better with a wheel than the ps2 controller i was using.

Then i played LFS and that totally blew away gt legends. Its just i feel so much more connected to the cars in LFS. the force feedback feels much better. :shrug:


so... i guess that it really is the game and there's nothing i can do to get it to feel as good as lfs?

[mrodgers]

Ok, Gabkicks, must have missed that one. One of the downfalls of trying to surf forums on dialup. I click on "new posts" then while loading the thread, someone posts and it gets caught somewhere in the middle where I don't see it, yet the forum marks it as "read".

[deggis]

I can't remember was it this thread or not that had some talk about the Ring conversion for GTL but I'll post this link to this thread anyway :)

http://www.drivingitalia.net/download/vari/video_nurb.zip

If the d/l link doesn't work: http://www.drivingitalia.net/articoli.php?sez=focuson&id=32

Looks like it's the best GPL Nyrb version ever?

[Gabkicks]

the version from gt4 seems closer to real life imo and the opinion of people who've actually driven it. :p. i was just watching a replay a day or two ago... man they really pushed the ps2 hardware to the limit with gt4.

i did tons of laps on the one in gt4 and i recognized most of the turns in the one in gt legends so i guess they both are pretty accurate. there are some noticable elevation differences between each. like the last long straightway is pretty obviously more hilly in the one in gt legends. but someone pointed out that the old nurburgring was like that while gt4 is based on the more recent nurburgring in wich the straight was smoothed out.

[Eldanor]

btw, any of you british guys, have any of you ever thought of emailing top gear and telling them about LFS? i wonder what they would make of it

Well, I think they could take a RaceAbout and make some autorcross stuff for comparing. I would like to see the results!!!

[AndroidXP]

From what I've heard about the RA does not handle like that in RL at all. It's much harder and more dangerous to drive in LFS, but it doesn't make any sense to discuss this now because a physics patch is on the way anyways.

[axus]

Part of the reason for the RA's different handling in real life is the torsen differential which LFS does not currently simulate. I should hope it is on the list of updates for the next patch.

[AndroidXP]

Well you can be pretty sure it's on his list, maybe not for the patch but marked as to-do. Almost any suggestion you see here has been on his internal list for years but there's simply not the time to add all these suggestions at once. At the moment tyre physics are priority #1 (I guess) and the other stuff we'll see. Scawen's always good for some surprises, too :D

[deggis]

the version from gt4 seems closer to real life imo and the opinion of people who've actually driven it. :p. i was just watching a replay a day or two ago... man they really pushed the ps2 hardware to the limit with gt4.

i did tons of laps on the one in gt4 and i recognized most of the turns in the one in gt legends so i guess they both are pretty accurate. there are some noticable elevation differences between each. like the last long straightway is pretty obviously more hilly in the one in gt legends. but someone pointed out that the old nurburgring was like that while gt4 is based on the more recent nurburgring in wich the straight was smoothed out.
Yup, GT4 might be the best version currently but I was talking about the old GPL version which has been updated with texture updates at least thousand times. Altough that recent GTL version doesn't look anything near todays graphical standards. :shrug: I just hope we see a totally redone Nordschleife for netKar Pro (because two crazy guys are making one for the GT 70' mod for netKar Pro).

[Psycho Evangelion]

^^ how the ?! how'd you get a PAL version of a game while living in the US...

as for the cost of licensing a track.. expensive.. lol VERY expensive at that. Obviously depending on the track, but you'd be better off going out and buying a dodge viper with that money

btw, any of you british guys, have any of you ever thought of emailing top gear and telling them about LFS? i wonder what they would make of it (obviously people here in the US would never see it.. unfortunately they canceled top gear on the discovery channel last year.. kinda sucks)
obviously now wouldnt be the best time, i would wait a while until the physics are better

there are errr..."resources" on the web that release high def captures of british Top Gear whenever they are released.

[deggis]

I just wasted two hours to Racer. :D I knew it wasn't going to be anything amazing... I even tested it last summer but it was some kind of buggy beta which didn't even have proper controller menus, so I just wanted to give a second chance. And of course test out Nordschleife which is a port from SCGT (Sports Cars GT? I can't remember, did that game really have Nurb or is it again the same old version from GPL?). At least it looks a lot different than most of the GPL versions:

http://torttu.net/temp/pics/racer_nurb.jpg
http://torttu.net/temp/pics/racer_nurb2.jpg
http://torttu.net/temp/pics/racer.jpg (this pic not from Nurb)

Well the game itself was kinda crap. :shrug: FF is someway near to netKar's but there's no contact with the road so it felt canned. I would say it's close to Gran Turismo class or something. Most of the modded cars seem to be poorly modded. I tested RUF Porsche which is probably one of the best modded cars for it (?). I guess Racer is so popular because everyone just wants to make a own mod car for it.

[Gabkicks]

^ have you tried the d1gp mod? the only reason i have racer on my pc is because of that mod lol. most of the other cars are unpleasant to drive.

[deggis]

^ have you tried the d1gp mod? the only reason i have racer on my pc is because of that mod lol. most of the other cars are unpleasant to drive.
I downloaded it and even tested very quickly but I'm not really into drifting so...

[the_angry_angel]

LFS rocks.

End of thread.

[RevMonkey]

^ have you tried the d1gp mod? the only reason i have racer on my pc is because of that mod lol. most of the other cars are unpleasant to drive.

where would i go about finding this?

[deggis]

where would i go about finding this?
http://www.fsr.no/d1rdgp/

Not literally a mod, just a track and cars to be downloaded separately.

[AndroidXP]

LFS rocks.

End of thread.
The truth of this is amazing :tilt:

[Vain]

LFS rocks.

End of thread.Obviously.

Vain

[AndroidXP]

Get out. We hate you now. :mad:





j/k, sometimes it's best to leave LFS for a while and then come back and see what you were missing all the time. :)

[Gabkicks]

yeah, you'll most likely come back more skilled. i think for some people (like me :p) it is possible to play lfs too much and end up getting bored while stagnating the improvement of your lap times and battle skills :P. at least thats what happens to me.

[deggis]

j/k, sometimes it's best to leave LFS for a while and then come back and see what you were missing all the time. :)
I just did that with RBR like I've done several times before. I played RBR for two months but the first time I didn't get that "ah, I didn't remember how good LFS was" feeling. :( The grip issues and the sounds feels (correction: sounds sounds) worse than ever, but of course I'll get used to it...

[AndroidXP]

Well, it's your own fault if you take the only *other* sim that is comparable to LFS. From my experience RBR has by far the best FF besides LFS, so taking that as a "chill out" from LFS is a really bad idea :D

[deggis]

Well, it's your own fault if you take the only *other* sim that is comparable to LFS. From my experience RBR has by far the best FF besides LFS, so taking that as a "chill out" from LFS is a really bad idea :D
You are right :)

[rcpilot]

I can't race properly in rfactor unless I turn the steering dampening/acceleration off. :( LFS has gotten me too used to fully proportional steering.

[keiran]

I find it difficult to get into rFactor. It's so hard to tell what the car is doing in rF through the wheel. The FF effects in rF just don't seem to give much indication on what the car is doing. Also the steering lag annoys me so much when trying to catch the car quickly. I still think LFS has the upper hand on the physics side just because of the FF and also the amount you can change on the setups in LFS is a big plus towards simulation.

Keiran

[Messiah]

LFS rocks.

End of thread.
ERROR: Posting beyond end of thread.

[Abort (http://www.lfsforum.net)] [Retry (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=73109#post73109)] [Ignore (http://www.lfsforum.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=73109)]

[travbrad]

5) GT4 is made for 12 year olds and is designed to be fun with a gamepad. The single purpose of GT4 is to make money, not recreate real life. If it was realistic, it would be unplayable with a pad (and I can drive it with no aids on).

Haha, that is very true. I tried playing GT4 with my DFP and there is no feel whatsoever. The cars almost seem to "float" on the track at times, if that makes sense