Is this a cheat? [Archive]

arco

15th July 2008, 22:59

Like Pecholobo? :x
I can think of a few others as well. Also from Spain go figure... :shrug:

Well, it's maybe not a cheat in its true sense, but more like using it to gain an unfair advantage. Really makes the whole hotlapping thing pointless when someone comes along using it. If they are fast to begin with, it can make all the difference between 1st and 2nd place. Remember, I'm talking about hotlapping here, where every hundredths of a second counts. In racing I don't think it makes such a big difference, since other factors plays a role too.

That said, as long as someone beats my wrs fair and square, I won't use such a method trying to get it back. However, if they do use such a script, then I might do it too in order to reclaim it.

Anyway, if someone is blatantly using it all the time to gain advantage over others, they really don't deserve to be respected as a driver at all.

Biohazard

15th July 2008, 23:04

However, if they do use such a script, then I might do it too in order to reclaim it.

Which would make you equal - you would be on the same level with these guys.

I guess chano has now enough clues to make the right decision. :tilt:

Gil07

15th July 2008, 23:08

If you have to ask if you are cheating, you most probably are.

Words of wisdom ^

Gener_AL (UK)

15th July 2008, 23:18

I experimented with certain "techniques" , its effective and i know using it would instantly improve some of my uploaded laps.
But I dont feel compelled to use it or feel i need to use it, Although having a WR taken by someone proven to be exploiting LFS's clutch system can be frustraiting.

Biohazard pretty much sums it up though with his posts.

RiGun

15th July 2008, 23:27

I've tried it to see the difference and while it won't make you an alien it does help in a racing environment, the most common situation where you get an advantage is when you get out of a corner head to head, with the script you will end with better top speed and better chances of getting the position you are fighting for and that is totally unfair.

pecholobo

15th July 2008, 23:37

sry biohazard but I'm fair a sportsman :thumb:

Aitorrr

15th July 2008, 23:42

Kancel

16th July 2008, 00:20

i've done a little testing on the drag strip

using a 10 ctrl rate button clutch instead to simulate the gear macro

the advantage of it is obvious, and here is the best result i got:

Auto clutch 13.21
Manual clutch 13.01

0.2 sec!!!!

attached the set as well, give it a try

Gener_AL (UK)

16th July 2008, 00:47

Its not that time is gained as such , its the way its gained.
I dont mind if i get beat racing with someone using a mouse or keyboard,
Infact i have respect, i did use the mouse for 9 months or so and trust me i envious of every wheel driver that beat me during that period.
Back to the main issue though, Is fair use of a button clutch or somthing configured via the profiler/script/macro accetpable?
It's by no means a massive difference its tenths of a second depending on the combo and that makes all the difference at the top level
In the hotlap enviroment. Racing i can see where it can have a difference also.
Ability is also a key factor lets not underestimate this with or without BC to get the WR times it does take practise and time and skill.
Which is why it is defined by some as a cheat, as using it does not require much skill.
Its always been an on/off issue this the longer LFS retains the hotlap physics intergrity the more obvious at the limit of max achievable
Speed at any given location/car combination. Thats when those tenths or hundreths make all the difference.
I really dont want to use this next point as a scenario as everytime the devs names are mentioned in a thread recently the topic
breaks of into subdivisional arguments about what if how why when the devs should do about LFS state. ( I even cringe at having to feel i have to say that)
But ...
The devil in me says , why not just use the BC to really see if i can match my peers. But lets picture, a future example, lets say.......
After this threads outcome people decide that using the BC method is fair game, the majority of competing hotlappers all use it now and its proliferated onto the race scene just as extensivley.
Then along come scavier and change the physics.
I guess all I'm trying to say is people will do what they can, when they can, and why they can.

Theafro

16th July 2008, 01:08

Let's face it, Real-life race teams will spend thousands on chasing tiny gains like that so i guess it's fair game, If chasing tiny little margins turns you on, so be it.

I use a clutch/shifter setup which puts me at a disadvantage against those that use 2 pedals and paddle-shift. But it doesn't matter to me though, If I'm the fastest Clutch user on the chart, that's as good as a WR for me!:D

arco

16th July 2008, 01:25

That is why you have gentlemen ... is pathetic to learn that an unknown person using clutch can download 4 seconds one time ... because they are 4 seconds to win? you what you shall know better if you are so convinced that time is gained.

Besides scientifically proven that you can earn time? I would like to know exactly.

Sorry my English.
Don't really understand what you're trying to say here, but your actions on lfsworld says it all. You don't like my views and think your methods are perfectly ok, so to humiliate me you go ahead and do what you just did? Well, congratulations! You are superior, and others and myself have no chance. I guess it's time to quit the whole hotlap business. There's no point doing it. The system is flawed. If it ever gets fair for everyone I might be back. Until then it seems like anything goes, and I sure as hell won't be part of it.

And btw... why did you choose the UFR to do what you did? Why not the XFR? Could it be because button clutch doesn't work in the XFR? Geez! :shrug:

mrodgers

16th July 2008, 01:52

Let's face it, Real-life race teams will spend thousands on chasing tiny gains like that so i guess it's fair game, If chasing tiny little margins turns you on, so be it.
That right there is well said.

Professional race teams do use every trick in the book. They will find an advantage such as the issue discussed here and exploit it. Until it is made a ruling that you can NOT use it, they will use it and even after some will try to use it at the risk of getting caught.

The speed hack is such a rule in LFS. It is concidered a cheat, which is equal to being illegal in a professional racing series rulebook. But it's been proven that some people ignored the fact and took the risk of using it. They were caught, thus penalized for breaking the rules just as the professional teams are penalized for breaking the rules of their series.

This button clutch issue, or shifting issue, or whatever it is, I don't even know, is nothing worse than the high nose setup exploits of patches gone by. Everyone barked about the high nose setup exploit, yet those same were inclined to use it as well. It was there available to all. There was nothing in the rulebook stating that it was illegal to use the high nose setup so everyone used it. This issue discussed here is nothing different that that issue way back when.

[DUcK]

16th July 2008, 01:56

Let's face it, Real-life race teams will spend thousands on chasing tiny gains like that so i guess it's fair game, If chasing tiny little margins turns you on, so be it.
I agree with what you're saying, though some people can't use button clutch.
Most G25 users can't, because they only have 2 buttons on the steering wheel, which most use for looking left/right. I can't use macro because for some reason after about 5 or so shifts the clutch starts to stick.
Some people can't do it so I believe it's an unfair advantage.

BTW bio your posts are so sexy :D

pearcy_2k7

16th July 2008, 01:59

Arco, you'd be giving them what they want, Zanini (also spanish) was doing it too on a very fast corner which you need to change down to 5th very quickly in the FO8 as most people know you either use manual pedal clutch or have to lift off this guy did it in a split second, thats why i think the BF1 has the fairest playing field you gain very little/no advantage using this script.

@Chano - Your good as it is ive watched some of your hotlaps, this script wont get you to where you presumably want to be so why use it? Instead of using this just home in on other skills that eventually will pay off.

wheel4hummer

16th July 2008, 02:34

I think that the FZ5 should have autoclutch by default. Alot of expensive cars have auto-clutch manual transmissions in real life.

mrodgers

16th July 2008, 02:42

;866072']I agree with what you're saying, though some people can't use button clutch.
Most G25 users can't, because they only have 2 buttons on the steering wheel, which most use for looking left/right.
Just because you choose not to use a button clutch and use it to look instead, doesn't mean that you can't use a button for the button clutch. Not an unfair advantage in my eyes. You still have the option, you are only choosing not to use it.

In general on the topic: Unsportsmanlike, yes. Unfair, no. Until the devs come and state that it is a cheat and shouldn't be used, it isn't against any "rulebook". It can still be in the "rulebook" of a particular league you are running in even if the devs haven't stated it in general LFS usage.

arco

16th July 2008, 02:54

Arco, you'd be giving them what they want,
Too late, already deleted my hotlaps. :(
I'm not the fastest, or most natural talented driver, not by a long shot. Hell, I'm just an old guy trying to keep up with alien teenagers. :shy: Some of the wr's I've set, I've worked really really hard on. Sometimes hours, sometimes days. I learn combos very slowly, and totally forget how to drive them after a couple of days if driving another one in between. My reaction is very bad, so I'm either too late or too early into corners. So yes, I'm a bit offended when someone do like 3 laps using unfair methods, and beat my wr. And on top of that, they use my setup (which they got from Phlos wr set collection) without permission. If they beat me fair and square, then I have no problem with it.

chanoman315

16th July 2008, 03:12

This is unbelievable, the breaking of WR's, i would like to see it with auto clutch if they can do the same, just to see the difference.
I saw the FeGreen-FXO WR (pecholobo) and wow, that clutch is fast, my first toughts of it (2 months ago) were that he was fast using the button.... but now this, a macro or whatever, that is being discussed if it's a cheat. For some isn't a cheat, but for others yes, that's what im asking, if the community/fast racers/wr's holders/respectable teams see it like a cheat, because i don't want to mark my name as a "cheater" or "unsportsmanlike" racer, (maybe because im at my best moment of being fast :razz:).. So that's why im asking...
If the spanish people come here to say it isn't a cheat... ok for them... it's unfair for others yes, but the only one that i see that has beaten them fair and square is Ray (Bawbag)... and that's good because he's an alien.
And im not going to use it then :)

PS: I know now why pecholobo never completed the MHR, or got any other WR's apart from road cars

EDIT: arco :( you were like my benchmark for the rb4 laps :D

pearcy_2k7

16th July 2008, 03:15

Too late, already deleted my hotlaps. :(
I'm not the fastest, or most natural talented driver, not by a long shot. Hell, I'm just an old guy trying to keep up with alien teenagers. :shy: Some of the wr's I've set, I've worked really really hard on. Sometimes hours, sometimes days. I learn combos very slowly, and totally forget how to drive them after a couple of days if driving another one in between. My reaction is very bad, so I'm either too late or too early into corners. So yes, I'm a bit offended when someone do like 3 laps using unfair methods, and beat my wr. And on top of that, they use my setup (which they got from Phlos wr set collection) without permission. If they beat me fair and square, then I have no problem with it.

Sounds very similar to my driving, forgettin tracks, turn in too early etc.
Should have kept your hotlaps though, now you have nothing to show for the time you spent hotlapping :( Ah well...

IMO it is an unfair advantage and the "its there you can use it, nothing stopping you" argument is pure bull anyone can get their hands on a speed hack, "well you can use it so its not an unfair advantage" If nothing is done LFS will turn into an arcade game, you should either have to use auto clutch or assign the clutch to an axis and get rid of all the sad, pathetic people that do this...

Bladerunner

16th July 2008, 03:41

I use a clutch/shifter setup which puts me at a disadvantage against those that use 2 pedals and paddle-shift. But it doesn't matter to me though, If I'm the fastest Clutch user on the chart, that's as good as a WR for me!:D

At last a post that I can agree with wholeheartedly :)
If it wasnt fro the fact that to do so would be an administrative nightmare, I would love to see TWO WR charts, one for clutch/shifter, and one for arcaders! As it happens all of my hotlaps were done with clutch/shifter..they arent particularly fast, but as Theafro says, if I'm top clutch user then its as good as WR for me :thumb:

Mike (Rodgers)...Maybe people with a G25 CHOOSE not to use a button clutch because they have a pedal for it instead! :D Also, what's the point of spending lots of beer-tokens on a wheel/shifter, only to use it the same as any cheap wheel?

mrodgers

16th July 2008, 04:21

Mike (Rodgers)...Maybe people with a G25 CHOOSE not to use a button clutch because they have a pedal for it instead! :D Also, what's the point of spending lots of beer-tokens on a wheel/shifter, only to use it the same as any cheap wheel?
It's only a response to complaints and statements that they can't. They can, they just choose not to. It is still there and available to them.

RocksGt

16th July 2008, 06:22

I can think of a few others as well. Also from Spain go figure... :shrug:
Would you mind to give me a list?

If you prefer to do so via PM I don't mind :thumb:

Thanks in advance :nod:

pecholobo

16th July 2008, 06:49

the people who uses a mouse to take the direction control, more rapid and precision is not cheater? does not do traps? accelerate and brake with a button in a better reaction time that with a few pedals is not a trap? Is not the stabilizer of keyboard an advantage? and the steering wheels with axes in the paddles that activate the analogical axis at the same gear change time is not an advantage?

The clutch button is a option and you can use it if you want, in the same way as you can move the car direction with a mouse...

arco, also I learn slow the combos or you believe that I give a lap and do wr? and yes, me and "other spanish figures" we use the suspensions and the gears relations of the wr to beat them but we copy the set with the lfsworld tool, with all rights :)

Rocksgt you can see "the other spanish figures" (mr crybaby words) here http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/8198/20866165cp3.jpg

arco

16th July 2008, 07:13

RocksGt

16th July 2008, 07:23

Crybaby, lol! Nice! :thumb:

Don't forget to add Aitorrr to that list too.

Well pecholobo, at least you seem to have the decency to have stopped using it. If so, kudos to you for that. :nod:
About the others, the sad thing is that they also use it to gain advantages in your internal Spanish leagues. I'm pretty sure that most of the other contestants have absolutely no clue about it. Sure, they're probably fast without it too, but this way they are pretty much guaranteed to be at the top.
Don't worry... many people know the trick. In my team we discuss it and some of my teammates try it, but we're really far away from the top times and use to drive for joy (we're not breaking any WR :tilt:).

Anyway... Aitorr doesn't race in our league anymore and Zanini and arrechee are in another level (with permission from Elgar and a few more guys) so no one will complain if they get two tenths that way :shrug:

In our forums we use to discuss a lot about exploiting times vs simulating reality... you know... cockpit view vs wheels view, cluth axis and H shifter vs paddles... and in the end we don't blame no one because we have fun every monday and we have one of the best leagues (organization, automatic system and community) and we're really proud of it :thumb:

aIM BLR

16th July 2008, 08:15

Arco, go back your hotlaps. You are not cheater.
G25 is cheaters construction, mouse also cheaters construction. And what we will do? No play LFS?

Juls

16th July 2008, 08:19

Let's face it, Real-life race teams will spend thousands on chasing tiny gains like that so i guess it's fair game, If chasing tiny little margins turns you on, so be it.

Unfortunately, you can say this for anything...like timer cheats. There is always a limit between what is legal or not, the devs have to decide and try to make the sim as fair as possible.

For me, as soon as you use another piece of code (exe, script) - which is not included in the game - to go faster...there is a little problem. Scripts like aimbots have ruined most FPS games. I expected something similar would not occur with racing sims.

Kdovi

16th July 2008, 09:12

Do you think that there's anyway for devs to prevent using this cheat? (yes, I said cheat)

Eldanor

16th July 2008, 09:27

Do you think that there's anyway for devs to prevent using this cheat? (yes, I said cheat)

Maybe removing the button clutch.

But I wouldn't call it a cheat, it's not an exploit nor a bug, both scripting and button clutch are documented features of LFS, so while not being very sportsmanship, it's a legitimate option like the old high nose bug or the locked diff.

Finding a way to prevent it would be good for the fairness of competition, but calling them cheaters is not correct.

Bean0

16th July 2008, 09:39

Anyone care to post the script ?

kaynd

16th July 2008, 09:42

the people who uses a mouse to take the direction control, more rapid and precision is not cheater? does not do traps? accelerate and brake with a button in a better reaction time that with a few pedals is not a trap? Is not the stabilizer of keyboard an advantage? and the steering wheels with axes in the paddles that activate the analogical axis at the same gear change time is not an advantage?

The clutch button is a option and you can use it if you want, in the same way as you can move the car direction with a mouse...

It takes some skill in order to utilitize the mouse accuracy.
Appart from that, not having complete control in throttle and braking is a disadvantage which in not apparent only on combos with slow road cars (XFG) , or with 4wd (RB4, FXR) drivetrain. Same goes with the kb.
Generally the ability to give really fast steering inputs, hardly overcomes the disadvantage of not having analog throttle control.
Also it takes some skill to synchronize always the clutch even if it is just an extra button.
While a script that uses the clutch as an ultra fast axis input in perfect synch with the gear change, doesn’t require any skill at all and eliminates the gearbox restrictions that are there for a reason…

Gener_AL (UK)

16th July 2008, 09:45

Ive never used the script bean0. But it is quite simple to make button macro in Logitech profiler so that when you press the paddle, It depresses clutch beforehand, then its just a case of <in LFS> set clutch axis to button, manual clutch, then adapt a nice button rate.

Jakg

16th July 2008, 09:46

Anyone care to post the script ?
You can just make it yourself using the profiler.

Bean0

16th July 2008, 09:55

Ah right, I have never used the profiler.

At the end of the day, it is more of an exploit than a cheat. It is up to league admins to enforce the use of autoclutch if they see fit, like in the failed eTM series.

(FIN)Eza

16th July 2008, 09:57

Too late, already deleted my hotlaps. :(

Woot! Seems like this was good morning to wake up :D

.. But in serious.. put 'em back and lets continue our hotlap wars.. I'm not done with you on SO2 yet! :D

Let cheaters cheat.. At least we fair drivers know who has the REAL wr ;)

And on top of that, they use my setup (which they got from Phlos wr set collection) without permission. If they beat me fair and square, then I have no problem with it.I wonder if they are STILL doing this and not just by Phlos.. Maybe there is tool to extract set from wr replay? Just makes me wonder when I see sets from other users whichs never been shared yet.. If there is way to do this, it's bigger cheat than just button clutch imo :shrug:

EDIT: button clutch has been called "cheat" since the day it was found in early demo days.. It gives way too big speed difference against auto-clutch

Jakg

16th July 2008, 09:58

LiveForBoobs

16th July 2008, 10:07

I'm not the fastest, or most natural talented driver, not by a long shot. Hell, I'm just an old guy trying to keep up with alien teenagers. :shy: Some of the wr's I've set, I've worked really really hard on. Sometimes hours, sometimes days.

:uglyhamme

"somtimes hours, sometimes days" ahahahah and you say you're slow? oh god... i wish i was as "slow" as you!

kaynd

16th July 2008, 10:12

I wonder if they are STILL doing this and not just by Phlos.. Maybe there is tool to extract set from wr replay? Just makes me wonder when I see sets from other users whichs never been shared yet.. If there is way to do this, it's bigger cheat than just button clutch imo :shrug:

Are you talking about tire pressures and diff locking?
Because all suspension settings, brake force and gear ratios are already in public view at LFSW.
You can easily find camber and caster settings by pressing shift+L in game…
and aliment - DF just from some guesswork by watching the forces at force view in certain speeds...

Gener_AL (UK)

16th July 2008, 10:19

The Thread is straying a little off topic here, there was this thread (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=866248#post866248)i spotted earlier regarding the Info shared with IHLA@LFSW.
--
back on topic.

The hardest thing i see, is balancing the autoclutch make it too fast there is no point using that shiny set that comes with a G25, make it too slow and i bet use of a button clutch would increase rapidly to compensate those that feel unable to compete using the autoclutch system.

I seem to remember a discusion about this issue from a few years ago .... might have to trawl the forums to find it.

(FIN)Eza

16th July 2008, 10:39

Are you talking about tire pressures and diff locking?
Because all suspension settings, brake force and gear ratios are already in public view at LFSW.

Os*it.... Never noticed it's THAT detailed :bigeyes2:

nVm on this set copying then..

scipy

16th July 2008, 10:56

There are ways to rip sets from replays, and more people than Phlos have made tools to do so - Phlos' one just made it VERY easy with his "setupfield". For once he did the "right thing" though and pulled it once Vic found it.

Erm, way to go wit the double standards there. Phlos makes a setupfield to basically help out the community to get WR sets (which are pretty much useless for anything else except hotlaping) and then he is lynched in the forums and people spam his site, BUT when Victor makes a LFSW hotlap analyser thingy that basically does the same thing - reveals setup information then he is praised for a good job with helping out the community to learn more about sets? And when people start complaining about how they don't want their setup information revealed the only argument fallacy used is: "Oh if you don't want to help out your community then don't upload hotlaps to LFSW". Just cut the shit and get off ur high fanboi horse.

fujiwara

16th July 2008, 11:05

The set information availlable on LFSW wasn't already available using wsinda's replay analyser ?

migf1

16th July 2008, 11:20

My, my... I lived in the dark all this time. I had no idea there's a script making you change gears much faster, along with a button clutch. Is there a way to spot this by watching a replay, other than watching the timing of the gearing?

In any case, arco I know exactly what you mean when you say how hard it is to make a laptime in the top-3 of the charts, even more hard for a wr. And I surely understand the disappointment you feel. We're about the same age, meaning our reflexes and memory are not the same as they're used to be some years (even decades) ago.

However, I would urge you to re-upload your hotlaps. IMHO it's not a solution to throw away all the hard work you have put into them. Anything in the top-3 to the top-10 of the chart (depending on the popularity of the combo) is well respected by those who know ;)

Throw those hotlaps back, plz! Let all those... scriptobuttonclutchers think they deserve to be respected, they don't. At least not by those who matters.

anttt69

16th July 2008, 11:30

imo anyone who uses a macro or whatever to speed up the clutch/shift time should be banned from submitting any hotlaps to LFSW for at least a year.

Cheating is cheating there is no argument. The Devs should act on this.

Töki (HUN)

16th July 2008, 11:34

So, using mouse with pedals is also a cheat? :D Not so confortable by the way :(

Shotglass

16th July 2008, 11:40

...

how come you only ever show up in threads about hotlap exploits?

Erm, way to go wit the double standards there. Phlos makes a setupfield to basically help out the community to get WR sets (which are pretty much useless for anything else except hotlaping) and then he is lynched in the forums and people spam his site, BUT when Victor makes a LFSW hotlap analyser thingy that basically does the same thing - reveals setup information then he is praised for a good job with helping out the community to learn more about sets? And when people start complaining about how they don't want their setup information revealed the only argument fallacy used is: "Oh if you don't want to help out your community then don't upload hotlaps to LFSW". Just cut the shit and get off ur high fanboi horse.

ahem... i have never used phlos setup site but unless i understood something wrong his tool ripped the entire setup from the replay and not just the bits that are and have been officially documented on the lfs website for god knows how long
http://www.lfs.net/?page=RAF

aIM BLR

16th July 2008, 11:43

Remark. G25 have 500 Hz USB. DFP 125 Hz. Users G25 is cheaters, they play LFS in 4 time frequently.

Töki (HUN)

16th July 2008, 11:45

Remark. G25 have 500 Hz USB. DFP 125 Hz. Users G25 is cheaters, they play LFS in 4 time frequently.

Are you serious?!

aIM BLR

16th July 2008, 11:49

Töki (HUN), cheaters no, scan USB yes.

Worm

16th July 2008, 11:51

Hello drivers,

IMO, this script is a real shit(and cheat)... and there is no reason to use it.
When pecholobo beat my wr on fe2/FXO ( i did 1.16.97) with this script i was so desapointed because my lap was good ( ok except maybe the last sector :p ). Now, the best way is to beat these people who use this script. Just maybe to open the mind of these guys...
This script remind me the button clutch in the old version of LFS.... It was not really a cheat, but everbody knows that it so bad to use it. If you want to be respected dont use it and that s all. If you want to be cheater and not considered as a driver, so use it.

r4ptor

16th July 2008, 12:01

I look at it this way:

If it can be done within LFS (for example through the script system), then it's not a cheat.

If you rely on a 3rd party software to alter LFS functions, then it's a cheat.

Ped7g

16th July 2008, 12:03

the people who uses a mouse to take the direction control, more rapid and precision is not cheater? does not do traps? accelerate and brake with a button in a better reaction time that with a few pedals is not a trap? Is not the stabilizer of keyboard an advantage? and the steering wheels with axes in the paddles that activate the analogical axis at the same gear change time is not an advantage?

I don't think mouse is better than good well set wheel. I do use mouse in LFS, but I feel mostly comfortable with racing go-kart wheel (like formula, you don't need to let the hand off to make full turn), than mouse, than 700+ degree road car wheels.

I would take gas/brake pedals instead of buttons every time. While the reaction with button is a bit faster, I could earn lot of hundrets of second during braking into turn and soft work with gas to handle over/under steer near car limit. The button thing makes me to compromise my setups and change my racing line to compensate that.

I have no idea about the rest, but IMO good wheel is better than mouse + gas/brake on keyboard. Especially with formula cars, weak road cars are easy to put near limit no matter what controller you use.

duke_toaster

16th July 2008, 12:13

I look at it this way:

If it can be done within LFS (for example through the script system), then it's not a cheat.

If you rely on a 3rd party software to alter LFS functions, then it's a cheat.

I largely agree with that - however any avoidable and unreasonable unfair or unrealistic advantage (like clutch scripts_ should be knobbled at an appropriate oppertunity. Using scripts to do pit limiters and so-on is fine, but not clutch operation. I have a hunch how these scripts may work.

In athletics sprints, if a runner leaves within 0.1 seconds it is deemed to be a false start as it is practically impossible to react in that time. Maybe some form of system which notices suspectly fast gearshifts could be added. Maybe not delete them unless it is obvious, but put an "under investigation" flag next to them.

Re the G25 and DFP speeds business - I'm not sure if LFS takes the inputs at full speed as the physics work at 100Hz (IIRC).

Mouse simply cannot be an advantage, sorry. Totally imprecise. Throttle and brake buttons cannot really be an advantage as it's digital - ever tried driving the FO8 with a digital throttle? Smoke followed by Labour Party level spin.

Töki (HUN)

16th July 2008, 12:45

If you ask me, I would prohibit the use of this script. I wouln't let them upload their hotlaps... Hotlapping is a challenge, and it can't be called challenge when more and more hotlappers begin to use cheat. That's it, it's not fun anymore. :shrug:

anibarro

16th July 2008, 12:47

IMO, this script is a real shit(and cheat)... and there is no reason to use it.
When pecholobo beat my wr on fe2/FXO ( i did 1.16.97) with this script i was so desapointed because my lap was good ( ok except maybe the last sector :p ). Now, the best way is to beat these people who use this script. Just maybe to open the mind of these guys...
Just take a look:
http://www.lfsworld.net/rafa/?raf1=pecholobo_FE2_FXO_116960&raf2=csimpok_FE2_FXO_117150
You lose almost all of the time on the chicane of last sector, where there is no gear change.
I don't care about this kind of cheat/exploits or what ever it is, but some of you should show a little more respect to drivers who are, at least, as fast as you are.
There are filters when showing hotlaps, may be a filter for manual clutch will calm down some of your egos

Just one though: What happens with real life drivers who change gear without clutch, just doing it at propper revolutions? are they cheating?

Töki (HUN)

16th July 2008, 12:55

I don't care about this kind of cheat/exploits or what ever it is, but some of you should show a little more respect to drivers who are, at least, as fast as you are.

:shrug: Maybe, by using this script ( cheat ). Respect them?! No way.

Kdovi

16th July 2008, 12:59

Just one though: What happens with real life drivers who change gear without clutch, just doing it at propper revolutions? are they cheating?

I don't think it's comparable

kaynd

16th July 2008, 12:59

Just take a look:
http://www.lfsworld.net/rafa/?raf1=pecholobo_FE2_FXO_116960&raf2=csimpok_FE2_FXO_117150
You lose almost all of the time on the chicane of last sector, where there is no gear change.

Just one though: What happens with real life drivers who change gear without clutch, just doing it at propper revolutions? are they cheating?

This is an ability that your gearbox gives to you and it depends on the driver’s skill to do if we are talking about a normal H pattern one.
ffs scripting takes no driver’s skill…

As for the example you give...

If he is slower than "you" only at the last sector, that means that "you" are slower than him on the rest of the track because "you" spend "your" fast shift advantage and still be as fast as him.

use some common sense plz

r4ptor

16th July 2008, 13:12

I largely agree with that - however any avoidable and unreasonable unfair or unrealistic advantage (like clutch scripts_ should be knobbled at an appropriate oppertunity.

If Scawen doesn't want the script system to be used like this, then it shouldn't be possible to do - but other than that, if it is possible, then I wouldn't say it's unfair nor would I see it as advantage, since all LFSers would be able to do it. Realistic or not.

ffs scripting takes no driver’s skill…

And that matters because...? Most ppl currently change gears with auto clutch and a click on a button/paddle/shifter. Where's the skill, or even effort in that?

Bean0

16th July 2008, 13:14

If Scawen doesn't want the script system to be used like this, then it shouldn't be possible to do - but other than that, if it is possible, then I wouldn't say it's unfair nor would I see it as advantage, since all LFSers would be able to do it. Realistic or not.

Apparently it is done using the Logitech Profiler, I thought it would be the scripting system as well.

I suppose it would also be pretty simple to make an ignition cut sequential for all cars.
Turn off engine > button clutch press > change > button clutch unpress > turn on engine.

Worm

16th July 2008, 13:15

Just take a look:
http://www.lfsworld.net/rafa/?raf1=pecholobo_FE2_FXO_116960&raf2=csimpok_FE2_FXO_117150
You lose almost all of the time on the chicane of last sector, where there is no gear change.

What is the point with my post? :shrug:
And if you read my post correctlyi didnt say that about the last sector :)
You know, i was just giving my opinion, if you want i can jsut use this script and you will see the difference. And maybe you will undesrtand.

ANd we are just talking. Everybody knows that you are good driver and pecholobo too, that s why we dont understand why you use this script.

Glenn67

16th July 2008, 13:28

You know, i was just giving my opinion, if you want i can jsut use this script and you will see the difference. And maybe you will undesrtand.

Why don't you? I mean it would be good just to see how much of a difference we are actually arguing over here :) because I haven't seen any real hard evidence so far.

We need a comparison between squential shifting with auto clutch and shifting with a script. The earlier comparison in this thread compared auto gears with sequential shifting so doesn't answer the question at hand :p

Worm

16th July 2008, 13:37

ok, i will do it with the RB4 on aston antional.
Maybe not today but during the week.

Sir moi 407

16th July 2008, 13:47

Since it makes win time in on-line and hotlap mod with a no-official addon, it IS a cheat :shrug:
I think that Scawen saw this topic and will do an anti-cheat for this ;)

anibarro

16th July 2008, 13:54

ANd we are just talking. Everybody knows that you are good driver and pecholobo too, that s why we dont understand why you use this script.
I've never used that "script", I'm not a good driver, just and average one, but I use to race against arrechee and zanini, who does, and can't see the point to call them cheaters. Is not something like "wallhack" on counterstrike, is something that is on the game and would like someone to explain me why exits such an option (button clutch) in LFS. What is button clutch supposed to be for then?

Glenn67

16th July 2008, 13:55

ok, i will do it with the RB4 on aston antional.
Maybe not today but during the week.

I look forward to you reporting back :) don't foget once you have set your best time with the script to then do a few laps without it to ensure that the difference is the script and not improvement in your driving :tilt:

I personally believe that people are putting more emphasis on this script thing than is warranted, but I could be very wrong so would be keen to see.

With setup tweaks on the other hand I believe an improvement of 0.2 sec a lap is easily achievable with the right tweak (admitedly finding the right thing too tweak on a setup isn't easy though :razz: )

Since it makes win time in on-line and hotlap mod with a no-official addon, it IS a cheat
I think that Scawen saw this topic and will do an anti-cheat for this

One could use that same logic to say it's not a cheat... Creating a script is a normal function in many wheel profiler software packages, so there for using a script can't be a cheat. Just being devil's advocate here :p

Dillyracer

16th July 2008, 13:55

Remark. G25 have 500 Hz USB. DFP 125 Hz. Users G25 is cheaters, they play LFS in 4 time frequently.

Oh ffs, stop talking yourself out if this.

aIM BLR

16th July 2008, 14:04

Anybody answer me, why time autoclatch 230-250 ms, but no 150 ms?
I on my risk say: time autoclutch 150 ms almoust close problem scripts (cheaters).

Funnybear

16th July 2008, 14:11

Didn't even know this sort of thing existed . . . .Although I'm not surprised.

Kinda makes me look at the false aliens (apart from real aliens, who do exist. I have some faith left) in a kind of sympathetic light. I can see why some people would use it, like I can see why ferrari give huge amounts of money to Bernie's special yacht fund in the Bahama's. Not technically illegal in so many ways, but certainly not really in the spirit of things.

Maybe I shall have to add a new insult to my hot keys . . . 'Scripter!!' then maybe if we as a community ostracize these people then we can make the use of scripts so 'uncool' it fixes itself as a problem.

pearcy_2k7

16th July 2008, 14:22

If you were made to either use auto clutch or assign a clutch to an axis wouldn't that stop this thing all together or am i not understanding?

Bean0

16th July 2008, 14:26

If you were made to either use auto clutch or assign a clutch to an axis wouldn't that stop this thing all together or am i not understanding?

Using the script system to invert the axis and back again is in effect a button clutch I think.

Sir moi 407

16th July 2008, 14:34

I though it was an in-game addon that changes the gearbox :tilt:
In this case it isn't honnest at all:shrug:

chanoman315

16th July 2008, 14:38

And that matters because...? Most ppl currently change gears with auto clutch and a click on a button/paddle/shifter. Where's the skill, or even effort in that?There's no skill you're right, but have you seen the script? is way faster than default auto clutch in LFS, i woud say .4-.3 but it's' way faster...

ok, i will do it with the RB4 on aston antional.
Maybe not today but during the week.
I bet a 2:04
I've never used that "script", I'm not a good driver, just and average one, but I use to race against arrechee and zanini, who does, and can't see the point to call them cheaters. Is not something like "wallhack" on counterstrike, is something that is on the game and would like someone to explain me why exits such an option (button clutch) in LFS. What is button clutch supposed to be for then?Arreche didnt use it PrePatch Y, and he was the best spanish racer out there (hotlaps) so why start using it? only because some others started to use it too?...
BTW I think the Rb4 WR at Fe Green is with the script too... and not by spanish people :(

Glenn67

16th July 2008, 14:42

In this case it isn't honnest at all:shrug:

While I'm inclined to agree, it is hard to see it as being more "dishonest" than say using a wheel with wheel rotation set to 240deg or reducing FFB so low that it doesn't impede your reaction times or modifying the default skid sound files in LFS to help you hear the limit of traction better or.... throwing the whole aurgument upside down, how about making a more realistic brake based on a load cell, or having a three monitor setup? Are they cheats as they give you functionality that other racers cant hope to match.

I bet a 2:04

How much are we betting? :D If it is as much as 0.4 sec I'd be quite suprised. Would really like to know and Worm is a good unbiased (well maybe not unbiased but at least will test fairly) candidate to try it.

kaynd

16th July 2008, 14:46

ffs scripting takes no driver’s skill…

And that matters because...? Most ppl currently change gears with auto clutch and a click on a button/paddle/shifter. Where's the skill, or even effort in that?

You pay a price on slow shifts by using autoclutch... If you decide to develop that skill (shift using manual clutch) you can achieve faster shifts.
The script gives you unreal perfect shifts in any condition, effortless.

Sorry I am not willing to argue anymore about that, if you don't get it, it’s ok.

I personaly think it's just another exploit not a cheat.

wheel4hummer

16th July 2008, 15:03

It's only a cheat if it violates a rule. Otherwise it is only a loophole/exploit.

RiGun

16th July 2008, 15:26

as I reckon using an exploit is cheating, besides categorizing it doesn't make it right or fair. There isn't much that we can do about this right now but hope that Scawen changes the way button clutch works, the best solution I can think of is to fix the the button clutch and autoclutch rate at the same speed.

tiagolapa

16th July 2008, 15:29

This is ridiculous!! What a bunch of cheaters....
Whats wrong with the normal way of changing gears? Do you really need to exploit the game to obtain a few thents in lap times?
Everybody knows the last thents are the hardest to break and requires a lot of laps to achieve, and this kids come here and use the cheat to gain advantage :(

ps: some are stupid enough to not understand why we need button clutch: when you crash, button clutch is good to not burn the clutch. And yeah like above post says, it must be changed the way it works.

r4ptor

16th July 2008, 15:29

You pay a price on slow shifts by using autoclutch... If you decide to develop that skill (shift using manual clutch) you can achieve faster shifts.

I'm not defending the method - just expressing my opinion that if LFS allowed it, then fine by me. But if you could only do this by using other software, then it's not.

Sir moi 407

16th July 2008, 15:31

While I'm inclined to agree, it is hard to see it as being more "dishonest" than say using a wheel with wheel rotation set to 240deg or reducing FFB so low that it doesn't impede your reaction times or modifying the default skid sound files in LFS to help you hear the limit of traction better or.... throwing the whole aurgument upside down, how about making a more realistic brake based on a load cell, or having a three monitor setup? Are they cheats as they give you functionality that other racers cant hope to match.
The difference is that nearly everybody put the wheel at 240degrees... I mean that's LFS options.
We bought the game and LFS gives us these options...
But this thing isn't an LFS option and it gives and advantage to people that know that "mod" that isn't an LFS option :shrug:

lococost

16th July 2008, 15:56

The thing with the script which everyone seems to forget (exept Duck :o) and is the most important, is that it doesnt work on all pc's. That means it does give an unfair advantage to those that can make it work.
It is not a cheat, it is unfair however, and at the risk of beeing called a 'whiner' or a 'moaner', this is something that should have been fixed by the devs a long time ago. This discussion has been going on for years, all because of a flaw that could be fixed by the devs.

I'm sure guys like pecholobo wouldnt mind if the script couldnt be used any more, he (and others) just use whatever means possible to get the maximum out of lfs and its restrictions.

spiderbait90

16th July 2008, 16:38

In my opinion, unless it changes the games coding, it is not a cheat, or hack. It is an exploit.

In my opinion, its no worse than those people who play Call Of Duty and have a controller with a "Turbo" button. (a button that repeats a keystroke really quickly).

Im not supporting its use. I dont use it, and would rather people didnt use it, but no need to go slaughtering people who do want to use it.

h3adbang3r

16th July 2008, 16:53

Remark. G25 have 500 Hz USB. DFP 125 Hz. Users G25 is cheaters, they play LFS in 4 time frequently.Good lord you are stupid. G25 users are cheaters because Logitech manufactured them to be of higher quality in every aspect to the DFP, including response time? Hell, according to you, I can go "cheat" right now by using my mouse which runs at 1000 RPS (Reports per second)

arco

16th July 2008, 17:01

You lose almost all of the time on the chicane of last sector, where there is no gear change.without clutch, just doing it at propper revolutions? are they cheating?
Don't forget that with button clutch script, you're also reaching top speed faster. So if you loose a little in corners, you make up for it on the straights.

As Worm, I will be posting a comparison hotlap later, where I'm going almost at my full speed potential, with and without the script.

The Very End

16th July 2008, 17:04

If people use a script to change gears fast, then I would look on it as a cheat.
I am not going to argue and using 30 minutes to hammer down my anger in a post, but make this clear - If I ever race against one, that admits / I find out he is using a script to gain unfair advatages - then I will ignore you, and do my best to get the rest of the server to hate you. I am amazed that there are people using exploits like this, and really, I hope you lose your lisence you ****ing wankers. Yeah, I am pissed, maybe it's not that much of a gain, but it is some, and it's unfair. I hope Scawen see's this and ban these damn idiots fast as possible.
What is next? Scripting that learn the brake points, and then doing super braking every time?

I hate scripters, and I recommend people to ban people using it if they see it online, maybe make a blacklist of people using exploits.

Edit : this whole post is silly, but I allways get's offended by people that are so misserable that they need to cheat to be competative.

stry90dis

16th July 2008, 18:51

I'm with The Very End, he expresses it the way I feel also. It undermines not only hotlapping, but competitive online systems like CTRA, which I use a lot. Often I suspected some kind of magic going on with the pedals of some other drivers. I often look at faster drivers, with pedal display on to learn from them.
But lately after watching some drivers blipping the throttle on downshifts, exact max rpm at downshift everytime(right amount of pedal pressure for blip), perfect upshifts etc. Ok maybe I sucked.
Only to see some of them when accelerating after complete throttle lift off which was instant and application of throttle was also instant. Nothing in between like the blipping. Get's me completely furious when seeing they are only using a mouse.
So here I am fighting with the pedals to be competetive and some tards with a mouse apply the perfect amount of pedal pressure at shifting. No problem perse, but AFAIK a mouse has no analog buttons. Needless to say any form of competition is useless this way, and makes me sometimes wonder why we even F****** drive online.

diablo21

16th July 2008, 18:52

Worm

16th July 2008, 18:59

I tried this scripts on AS3 RB4, and i beat my WR.
2.06.37 instead of 2.06.45
And 2.06.35 is possible of course.
For me, you can win easily 0.1 on this combo if you use manual clutch.
And like someone said, the last tenth are the harder to earn...
So use the manual clutch srcipt to do it is unfair for me.
Because it very hard to do 2.06.37 without this script, the lap of my dream was 2.06.39 with auto clutch.....
And i noticed something else. The car has more control in the enter of corner, and more stable at braking.
So when i see that pecholobo beat my wr at FE2 FXO by only O.O1 with this script, this is a good reason to be desapointed.
And, i m sure the RB4 is not the best car to test this script, i m sure this script works better with other car like UFR for example.
Well that was my report, in live from lfsworld ^^
You can check the replay if you want, i will let it on lfsworld for a few days.

SparkyDave

16th July 2008, 19:13

Shame reading about this unfair cheating, I don't hotlap anymore, but online races are/will be unfair also.

I suppose "script kiddies" will always be around exploiting the fair players.

I dont see the need to rant swear or insult anyone for it tho.

Its not all about winning for me, I try to do my fair share :) I enjoy the reacing, it has allways been with the belief that the playing field was somwhat level, until now.

SD.

Sir moi 407

16th July 2008, 19:14

-Worm
That just proves that it is unfair:shrug:
(oui oui c'est moi :P)

arco

16th July 2008, 19:21

In patch Y I held the wr on AS2R/RB4, with 1:13.08. Then the spanish community had a league race there and was hotlapping the combo like crazy. Only 3 persons beat my time, and of those 3, 2 were using button clutch. The one that didn't did a 1:13.02 I think. The other 2, I believe arrechee did 1:12.5x something, and Zanini 1:12.77. Needless to say I was quite dissappointed, and decided to try and see how fast I could go using clutch script. Well, I did the excact time as Zanini, 1:12.77, a whole 0.31 sec faster than my normal lap!

tiagolapa

16th July 2008, 19:29

Sorry but I had to lol. And most people that use it are REALLY competitive cause it's not like this script will give you 1 second advantage..

:shrug:

The Very End

16th July 2008, 19:39

Sorry but I had to lol. And most people that use it are REALLY competitive cause it's not like this script will give you 1 second advantage..

Still those 0.1-0.3 sec each lap can make the difference between FAIL and glory. Trust me, sometimes it's about .xxx seconds, and then it will work as a cheat.

If they where good from before, why would they use script then?
Did it feed their ego or something?

I hope some people will be banned for this, since it's clearly cheating / exploiting of the game.

diablo21

16th July 2008, 19:40

:shrug:

:shrug:

In patch Y I held the wr on AS2R/RB4, with 1:13.08. Then the spanish community had a league race there and was hotlapping the combo like crazy. Only 3 persons beat my time, and of those 3, 2 were using button clutch. The one that didn't did a 1:13.02 I think. The other 2, I believe arrechee did 1:12.5x something, and Zanini 1:12.77. Needless to say I was quite dissappointed, and decided to try and see how fast I could go using clutch script. Well, I did the excact time as Zanini, 1:12.77, a whole 0.31 sec faster than my normal lap!

When Arrechee is on it 3 or 4 tenths will go down even if he uses normal clutch. He is just too good. lol:thumb:

The Very End

16th July 2008, 19:43

EVEN IF?!
Now I am furious!!

You say that he MIGHT not use the cheat?! So, then your saying and admitting he use it most of time!
You and the other own no shame, I'm reporting this topic since I'm provoced now.

Edit : And yes, it looks stupid and childish, but there's seldom I get so provoced by assholes in LFS than I have been this time. A cheat that people brag about, and mod's / dev's has not closed / put up actions against it doesn't do it better.

Free for all, let's all cheat and be happy, that's the spirit of LFS..

tiagolapa

16th July 2008, 19:49

:shrug:

When Arrechee is on it 3 or 4 tenths will go down even if he uses normal clutch. He is just too good. lol:thumb:
Maybe im a bit stupid... or you..
DO YOU admit it gives advantage to those who use it? IF NO why they use it?
Its not surprise your are spanish and of course friend of the cheaters. Maybe you are one to..

(FIN)Eza

16th July 2008, 19:55

BTW I think the Rb4 WR at Fe Green is with the script too... and not by spanish people :(

Hmm it sure does look different clutch acting than auto-clutch..

Guess it's time to push FE2 bit further.. and yes, with good old auto-clutch :tilt:

arco

16th July 2008, 19:58

When Arrechee is on it 3 or 4 tenths will go down even if he uses normal clutch. He is just too good. lol:thumb:
Then he is defying the laws of physics. :razz:

pearcy_2k7

16th July 2008, 20:00

:DI rekon we should invade a combo the spanish communtiy have gone after get all the top drivers to beat them and drown them out...

arco

16th July 2008, 20:00

Hmm it sure does look different clutch acting than auto-clutch..
Yep, that's button clutch script. You can clearly see it in the analyzer.

scipy

16th July 2008, 20:02

Technique

16th July 2008, 20:09

IT IS NOT A CHEAT, it is an option

Where can I find the "Execute perfect shift" option in the LFS menus?

thx.

(FIN)Eza

16th July 2008, 20:12

scipy.. button clutch in LFS means, you have one button for clutch and one button for each gear changing (up/down).. so you need to press two buttons to change gear. It becomes cheat when you use 3rd party app outside of LFS to make script which makes this happen with just one button. I hope you understand it bit better now :)

Whatever happens only and just inside LFS.. is ok, but if you need 3rd party app to change something and run LFS differently what it's made to run.. It's not something you call "fair" or "normal"

diablo21

16th July 2008, 20:12

LOL I love how people start flaming me when they have no proof if I use... can you call it exploit? I never said he might not use the 'cheat' (that's quite a stupid statement tbh). I said that even if he doesn't use the 'cheat' he nearly always (I have never seen him having BIG problems beating a WR) is faster than the current WR holder, prooving wrong the people that say they should be shameless or have no skill.

I don't use this 'cheat', I tried setting up the script once but tbh I failed. And yes it does give some advantage but don't go crazy with it... It's not like it would make a noob do good times ffs..

And (it may look the other way around) I would honestly like this 'cheat', exploit, call it whatever you want to be removed/banned by LFS devs. I don't really know how they would do it tho.

Then he is defying the laws of physics. :razz:

What can I say? :shrug: I've seen it with my eyes. lol.

I rekon we should invade a combo the spanish communtiy have gone after get all the top drivers to beat them and drown them out...

It would be never-ending and quite pointless tbh. lol

Technique

16th July 2008, 20:19

any respectable league will have a simple rule that will get rid of the "cheaters" - autoclutch=1 - that pretty much solves the problem, after the race is done, LFS Stats goes through the replay and u see anyone who doesn't have an autoclutch flag by his name, and they are then disqualified.

Leagues don't allow h-shifters/analog clutches? Isn't this a racing "simulator"? What leagues don't allow this so I know which ones to avoid?

Bladerunner

16th July 2008, 20:24

Said it before, will say it again...REAL drivers use a clutch that is pressed with a left foot...not a bloody button!!!!
I am another that would love to be able to filter the hotlap charts to show only clutch/shifter users in the same way you can filter out mouse/kb users.
The big difference is, with a paddle shifter using either auto clutch or a skript, it is impossible to miss a gear...I would love to see these skript-kiddies trying to drive properly! :D

Maybe I'll go spam the improvement suggestion section :scratchch

Kdovi

16th July 2008, 20:37

lol
lol

sorry, couldn't resist any longer

Juls

16th July 2008, 20:43

Bladerunner

16th July 2008, 20:44

Maybe this is the solution... in the WR list should be written if you use analog clutch/h shifter.
So you can sort records more precisely according to controllers used.

Because using mouse or wheel/clutch/shifter is like playing a different game.

er....read the post about 3 up from this one :D

[edit]...oops, you posted a "+1" on my improvement thread, so I guess you must have read it :)[\edit]

tiagolapa

16th July 2008, 21:00

(...)
I don't use this 'cheat', I tried setting up the script once but tbh I failed. And yes it does give some advantage but don't go crazy with it... It's not like it would make a noob do good times ffs..(...)

My friend you seem to fail seeing what the real problem is. The problem is not the noobs using it, the problem is when one fair WR goes down because of this exploit. It is unfair to the fair fast drivers, not me but take Worm and arco as example :thumb:
Sorry if i acused you of using it, my apologies.

diablo21

16th July 2008, 21:17

My friend you seem to fail seeing what the real problem is. The problem is not the noobs using it, the problem is when one fair WR goes down because of this exploit. It is unfair to the fair fast drivers, not me but take Worm and arco as example :thumb:
Sorry if i acused you of using it, my apologies.

I do understand that and that's why I want everyone to have the same possibilities (= fix this situation). But there are some people overreacting, going crazy about this, calm down. :schwitz:

And don't go hating on the spanish cause every combo we do the WR is lowered by 5 tenths to 1 second, and that isn't given by this exploit or whatever you call it. (This ISN'T directed to you tiagolapa).

Thanks

arco

16th July 2008, 22:25

Here's a PDF describing how to make the script, for those that have trouble understanding how to do it.

kaynd

16th July 2008, 23:09

And (it may look the other way around) I would honestly like this 'cheat', exploit, call it whatever you want to be removed/banned by LFS devs. I don't really know how they would do it tho.

it's realy simple... just make the button clutch as slow as the autoclutch... not depending on the button rate.

Then there is no reason for using that script.

Kdovi

16th July 2008, 23:39

and that isn't given by this exploit or whatever you call it.
Why don't they just prove their incredible skills by not using it then? :shrug:

diablo21

17th July 2008, 00:07

Why don't they just prove their incredible skills by not using it then? :shrug:

They still are. :shrug:

chanoman315

17th July 2008, 00:08

e2mustang

17th July 2008, 00:15

510N3D

17th July 2008, 00:35

Gotta comment here,since i do hotlaps too.Firstable,i might be not alien fast,but we had many wr fights with arco,and worm,eza,etc... Our times are really close and then some of theese guys come,giving us like almost 1 sec thats pretty disappointing,make u feel like a dousche,the work you put in hotlaps... We had some changes,to make hotlapping fair,now what would we call this script clutch? i dont think its fair in hottlapping,i wouldnt even care in online racing..I'd say make like a block at hotlap uploading for these script users,and make a fair hotlap "race". :shrug:

+1, well put. I only have three question:

1. What are the devs thinking about this? (I believe its pointless at some point to argue about it unless there is no official statement from you guys)

2. Just in case you agree that this is a way of gaining an advantage and unfair towards the "regular user", is there a solution in order to deny this or do we all have to make use of it now (or worse...) (sort of an official feature or something, meaning to reduce the timing/ mechanism of the auto clutch/ optimzing manual clutch to reduce/ erase the advantage for instance)?

3. Just in case you dont agree then please tell us why because its obviously* a fairly delicate subject.

* at least from what i could gather out of this thread

Have i missed something? If so then please let me know.

/no offence / for the good cause ;)

Zanini

17th July 2008, 00:42

Scawen, why you allow that we should be accused of cheater? You don't say anything?

BigTime

17th July 2008, 00:45

1. What are the devs thinking about this? (I believe its pointless at some point to argue about it unless there is no official statement from you guys)

2. Just in case you agree that this is a way of gaining an advantage and unfair towards the "regular user", is there a solution in order to deny this or do we all have to make use of it now (or worse...) (sort of an official feature or something, meaning to reduce the timing/ mechanism of the auto clutch/ optimzing manual clutch to reduce/ erase the advantage for instance)?

Have i missed something? If so then please let me know.

Yeah, I want to hear what the dev's have to say about this. And yes, if you use this, your a cheater and an unfair sportsman in my book. Everyone that uses this knows good and well that 95% (probably more than that) of the other hot lappers out there aren't going to have it.

diablo21

17th July 2008, 00:48

BigTime

17th July 2008, 00:54

You realize the script doesn't give you a 1 second advantage right? :schwitz:If someone beats you by 1 second it's cause you're doing something wrong, or not good enough.. Now probably if the guy that beats you by one second didn't use the script the times would be.. what 7 tenths maximum? Still alot.. :shrug:

Well of course this depends on the track but any advantage is an advantage. I'm tied with people on the world record chart... So even if it was only a .05 of an advantage, it's still unfair to those who don't have it.

e2mustang

17th July 2008, 00:55

You realize the script doesn't give you a 1 second advantage right? :schwitz:If someone beats you by 1 second it's cause you're doing something wrong, or not good enough.. Now probably if the guy that beats you by one second didn't use the script the times would be.. what 7 tenths maximum? Still alot.. :shrug:
I just said a number,and if you know worm,that all should tell you the advantage of that type of clutch. read few posts back,he even tested it out.

Glenn67

17th July 2008, 01:05

U have all lost ur way completley. This is the thing, it's not a "script", no real "hacking" or "scripting" is involved - it's just a button clutch option in LFS, u just press C and shift in the Logitech profiler and that's about it - a recoreded action. As long as button clutch is available in LFS - IT IS NOT A CHEAT, it is an option. If you want to use it you can, if you think it's immoral or wrong then don't. BTW, any respectable league will have a simple rule that will get rid of the "cheaters" - autoclutch=1 - that pretty much solves the problem, after the race is done, LFS Stats goes through the replay and u see anyone who doesn't have an autoclutch flag by his name, and they are then disqualified. The only solution for this "hotlapping war" that is going on is for Victor to add autoclutch=0 to the list of things that remove the hotlap from the chart.

So either petition him to do this or just stop with the wining and "I WILL GET EVERYONE TO HATE U IF U USE SOMETHING THAT IS AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE AND THEREFOR NOT REALLY AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE".

Your one of the only ones that seem to be able to look at this without seeing the red mist :D.

Firstly so I'm clear here - I do use auto clutch and I do not use recorded actions (i.e. a macro) for changing gears. I have tried using button clutch back in 2004/5 because alot of well known fast drivers were using it back then, just to see what the fuss was about and at that time I could see there was about a 0.1 to 0.2 difference which for racing isn't that big a difference for the extra complexities of using a button as clutch so I didn't bother any further with it. Using a macro is just automating that function and is a very easy and normal function of alot of game controller prfiler software just like adjusting FFB and wheel rotation.

In my view using unrealisticly small steering rotation like 240deg instead of 720deg gives you far greater advantage than using a macro for changing gears :x and by the logic of this witch hunt should also be banned, which btw wouldn't dissapoint me :thumb:

As an example using 240deg rotation I can do 0.4 - 0.5 sec per lap faster and more consitantly than using 720 deg so it should be banned because if I want to run 720 deg which is realistic then I'm at a huge disadvantage.

Then we could go on about views, does using custom wheels view give you an advantage over cockpit view? I would contend that it does as you can be far more precise with your entries and exits to corners - and we all know that can shave off many 0.1 sec's per lap. What about real gauges verses virtual gauges? I certainly can read the virtual one more clearly, so that is a big advanatge over those that choose to use real gauge mode. Again the more accurately you know speed mid corner the closer and more consistantly you can be at the limit. Again many 0.1 sec's in a race. I could go on and on about differences.

I can't believe so many believe that we all have a level playing field. Of course we don't, every type of controller choice in LFS will have advantages and disadvantages. Setting up LFS and your controller does have an impact on you ultimate speed that's a fact that reaches far beyound the macro clutch issue. It has just as much impact as car setup imo. We all make choices at the end of the day about our LFS setup regarding ultimate realism verses raw speed. I personally would love to persue the ultimate realism line, but realities of wanting to be competitive and only racing very rarely means I make some compromises in realism for raw speed.

I think the button clutch should be tammed abit (i.e. made slower) or just make it a requirement that you must have autoclutch enabled to upload a HL. But if you think that is going to "level" the playing field your deluded. LFS is much more level than real life racing but it will never be completely level, it's abit like balancing the TBO class :razz:

arco

17th July 2008, 02:44

Ok, here's the laps I promised. I recently set the wr at SO2r/UFR with a time of 51.26 (replay attached). Then when this thread got started, Zanini amongst others, obviously didn't like what I said. So to mock me, or whatever he had in mind, he decides to upload a faster lap there. He did the same on SO1/UFR, where I also did hold the wr. His time on SO2r, using button clutch is 51.02 (replay is on lfsworld).
I've now done 51.00 using button clutch, and with some more tries and a bit luck in the last corner, a 50.7x-8x is quite possible. And believe me, I did work a whole lot more on the 51.26 lap than on the 51.00.

Replays and set used below.

arco

17th July 2008, 02:50

You realize the script doesn't give you a 1 second advantage right? :schwitz:If someone beats you by 1 second it's cause you're doing something wrong, or not good enough.. Now probably if the guy that beats you by one second didn't use the script the times would be.. what 8 tenths maximum? Still alot.. :shrug:
You say this a lot, but it doesn't really mean much without proof. Wouldn't it be better to let them do a combo, with and without the use of button clutch, and then see how much the difference is?

chanoman315

17th July 2008, 03:00

how do i do this? i mean the cheat... i wanna compare some of my laptimes...
Do i put the script (the one arco posted on "mouse for speed" thread?) on the profiler? and that's it?

arco

17th July 2008, 03:03

Download the PDF attachment in one of my previous posts. It shows how to set it up.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=866988#post866988

BigTime

17th July 2008, 03:04

I have tried using button clutch back in 2004/5 because alot of well known fast drivers were using it back then, just to see what the fuss was about and at that time I could see there was about a 0.1 to 0.2 difference which for racing isn't that big a difference for the extra complexities of using a button as clutch so I didn't bother any further with it.

Well if you dont think having a .1 to .2 difference isn't a notable advantage in a race then you just simply have NO, and I mean NO clue what so ever, of what racing is.

In my view using unrealisticly small steering rotation like 240deg instead of 720deg gives you far greater advantage than using a macro for changing gears :x and by the logic of this witch hunt should also be banned, which btw wouldn't dissapoint me :thumb:

As an example using 240deg rotation I can do 0.4 - 0.5 sec per lap faster and more consitantly than using 720 deg so it should be banned because if I want to run 720 deg which is realistic then I'm at a huge disadvantage.

You can change the degree in which a wheel turns... The only side effect is that the wheel will become harder to steer (the force in which it takes to rotate) when you decrease the radius.

How often have you seen an F1 driver rotate the wheel more than 360 or 480 degrees? I rest my case.

Then we could go on about views, does using custom wheels view give you an advantage over cockpit view? I would contend that it does as you can be far more precise with your entries and exits to corners - and we all know that can shave off many 0.1 sec's per lap. What about real gauges verses virtual gauges? I certainly can read the virtual one more clearly, so that is a big advanatge over those that choose to use real gauge mode. Again the more accurately you know speed mid corner the closer and more consistantly you can be at the limit. Again many 0.1 sec's in a race. I could go on and on about differences.

As for the views, I think cockpit should be enforced at all times... As for the gauges, nether matter... Most of the good drivers do this by timing, sound, and sometimes feel.

I can't believe so many believe that we all have a level playing field. Of course we don't, every type of controller choice in LFS will have advantages and disadvantages. Setting up LFS and your controller does have an impact on you ultimate speed that's a fact that reaches far beyound the macro clutch issue. It has just as much impact as car setup imo.

Agreed, but having a different controler and using a cheat that makes the car shift faster don't even fall into the same realm...

The simple fact of the matter, this Marco (or what ever it's called) adjusts the game in a way the devs did not want it adjusted. Secondly, it give everyone that doesn't use it a big (an advantage is an advatage rather it's .1 or .001) disadvatage... I don't see how anyone can look at this as a form of fairness. People kill me saying that it isn't a big advantage.... ANY ADVANTAGE IS AN ADVANTAGE!

chanoman315

17th July 2008, 03:10

As for the views, I think cockpit should be enforced at all times... As for the gauges, nether matter... Most of the good drivers do this by feel.

:/ :(.... not many people feel comfortable or get many fps by using it.... or have a good monitor to feel it realistic ...
/end Offtopic

EDIT:
@arco: now i realize i have no acrobat reader for the pdf... and i have no good internet so i can download it, so it's there a posiibility to have it on .txt or Microsoft Word? ;) much appreciatted :)

BigTime

17th July 2008, 03:29

[quote=chanoman315;867135]:/ :(.... not many people feel comfortable or get many fps by using it.... or have a good monitor to feel it realistic .../quote]

Feel comfortable with what, digital gauges or on board views?

chanoman315

17th July 2008, 03:34

Feel comfortable with what, digital gauges or on board views?
IMO the sensation of steering, i dont see the wheels (rotation sometimes) and i cant see very well to the front...

evilpimp

17th July 2008, 03:47

As I'm in the OneGP league, I just have to say that the default cockpit view is a bit low imo. I use custom to raise it just a bit so I can see in front cuz for now you really can't see in front well.

As for the topic,

Yes it's a cheat.
No it shouldn't be used.
Yes it's cheap.
No the devs are not doing anything about it yet.
Yes I think the people who use it are just desperate for wins but actually have a huge lack of skill. (yes they get that close with their driving but it takes more skill to gain that tenth without cheating)

e2mustang

17th July 2008, 03:52

why u guys have to see the front? Feel it BABY!!! Dont drive like IRL girls... :P

Btw,would bi nice to see the 2 devs thoughts on this situation:the macro clutch.

(i was thinking they might do this coz the spanish champ has hotlap qualy by downloading HL times via script,as the hungarian champ had once.So whatever is the hotlap time,thats your qualy time in champ.<--- its lol :shrug: )

BigTime

17th July 2008, 04:02

why u guys have to see the front? Feel it BABY!!! Dont drive like IRL girls... :P

Yeah I'm kinda in the same boat. I can't see the front of my car on my daily driver ether... :really:

Imagine how an F1 driver feels, those guys sit so low they can barely see (exaggeration) the track... :D

Glenn67

17th July 2008, 04:44

Well if you dont think having a .1 to .2 difference isn't a notable advantage in a race then you just simply have NO, and I mean NO clue what so ever, of what racing is.!

Your right I have no clue, never was pertending I was a guru of racing I'm just an average joe who likes a good battle on the track and isn't too fussed at the end of the day whether I come first or second :thumb: but that's just my perspective I know :shrug: as I said earlier I don't see anyone racing for sheep stations here.

You can change the degree in which a wheel turns... The only side effect is that the wheel will become harder to steer (the force in which it takes to rotate) when you decrease the radius.

How often have you seen an F1 driver rotate the wheel more than 360 or 480 degrees? I rest my case.!

Well that begs more questions to its legitimatecy rather than closing the case :p In LFS you can reduce the steering rotation and the FFB so you have win/win not win/lose. And while having around 270deg might be legit in F1 LFS has alot more cars than the BF1 why should people be driving the standard road cars with sequenial shifting and 240deg wheel rotation - that is imo cheating just the same as using a macro clutch and with greater speed differences in an average race, but again that's my opinion :)

I am not saying any position is right or wrong, I just think there is alot of double standards on what is regarded as PC and whats not. I would agree we should reduce the difference that exist as much as possible, but at the same time I think there is many more and some that could never be monitored so it doesn't make sense to turn this into a witch hunt but instead keep it a civalized discussion, that is the intent of my posts.

What people fail to understand is that nothing is ever equal, we can endevour to make things as equal as possible and we should but unless everyone has exactly the same physical setup and circumstances then things cant be equal.

Agreed, but having a different controler and using a cheat that makes the car shift faster don't even fall into the same realm... !

What about people that make there own controllers? They could make them with better features which would give an advantage.

The simple fact of the matter, this Marco (or what ever it's called) adjusts the game in a way the devs did not want it adjusted. Secondly, it give everyone that doesn't use it a big (an advantage is an advatage rather it's .1 or .001) disadvatage... I don't see how anyone can look at this as a form of fairness. People kill me saying that it isn't a big advantage.... ANY ADVANTAGE IS AN ADVANTAGE!

That's the point I'm trying to make also. The macro clutch thingy is not the only way people gain advantages over others in LFS, so why is the macro clutch so politically incorect when some of the other things are so widely accepted as PC :x

BigTime

17th July 2008, 06:25

Your right I have no clue, never was pertending I was a guru of racing I'm just an average joe who likes a good battle on the track and isn't too fussed at the end of the day whether I come first or second :thumb: but that's just my perspective I know :shrug: as I said earlier I don't see anyone racing for sheep stations here.

I really want to apologize for this... I try not to be so harsh but sometimes subjects, such as this, just let the beast out. Though I don't agree, I should have said this in a more civilized manor...

Well that begs more questions to its legitimatecy rather than closing the case :p In LFS you can reduce the steering rotation and the FFB so you have win/win not win/lose. And while having around 270deg might be legit in F1 LFS has alot more cars than the BF1 why should people be driving the standard road cars with sequenial shifting and 240deg wheel rotation - that is imo cheating just the same as using a macro clutch and with greater speed differences in an average race, but again that's my opinion :)

That really might be a nice add-on to the game to be honest... If you run so many degrees under the standard, your FFB goes up a certain amount. Only problem is some people don't run FFB.

However the radius in which a car steers is adjustable with all cars (without a complete replacement of the steering system) while having faster shifts (this is usually depended on the driver or transmission) is not.

I am not saying any position is right or wrong, I just think there is a lot of double standards on what is regarded as PC and whats not. I would agree we should reduce the difference that exist as much as possible, but at the same time I think there is many more and some that could never be monitored so it doesn't make sense to turn this into a witch hunt but instead keep it a civilized discussion, that is the intent of my posts.

Well that would be like saying that people who have low FPS are at a disadvantage and deserve a pat on the back... The fact is that once you get into a high end level of sim racing (IE world record pace) the wheel nor anything (including this marco) else, other than driver skill, should have anything to do with the pace in which a driver can perform. If you can't compete with your wheel, then upgrade IMO.

What people fail to understand is that nothing is ever equal, we can endevour to make things as equal as possible and we should but unless everyone has exactly the same physical setup and circumstances then things cant be equal.

Well my response to this is really simple... Some people left foot brake while others right foot brake. If you want to be on the level adjust... Adjusting is not downloading a script that makes you shift faster.

What about people that make there own controllers? They could make them with better features which would give an advantage.

Such as?

That's the point I'm trying to make also. The macro clutch thingy is not the only way people gain advantages over others in LFS, so why is the macro clutch so politically incorect when some of the other things are so widely accepted as PC :x

So your acutally going to sit there and say a mod that allows drivers to shift faster (THAT IS NOT PART OF THE GAME) should be allowed. Other than the radius of steering, there is nothing to back up your case... Well hell if that's the case why not just start editing the engine... After that we could make the car lighter. Then we could add NOS after that.

The simple fact is, if you allow someone to modify the way the transmission works, then everything should be adjustable, or it is a cheat... No modifications to the game should be allowed unless all driver experience the same results, period.

Glenn67

17th July 2008, 06:36

The simple fact is, if you allow someone to modify the way the transmission works, then everything should be adjustable, or it is a cheat... No modifications to the game should be allowed unless all driver experience the same results, period.

Aopolgy acepted, I'm not amune to getting hot under the collar either :)

That's the very essense of this whole drama though, a macro in your logitec profiler is not modifying the game in any way whatsoever (you don't have to download a "script" you can record macros in the profiler to your hearts content), and is a normal function of the profiler. It is merely automating what can be done manually without the macro. There is no hack or code or anything else that inteferes with LFS :shrug:

As for the such as, I don't really want to go into it as it might give people ideas. But if you know abit about electronics your imagination is the only limit.

Well my response to this is really simple... Some people left foot brake while others right foot brake. If you want to be on the level adjust... Adjusting is not downloading a script that makes you shift faster.

Personally I think it actually is similar, because the way people brake (I do it also) in LFS is nothing like you would be able to in a standard car (in many modern race cars you can though), so its just as unrealistic in some cases.

Some people who choose to use the clutch on the G25 though can not brake as smoothly and reliably as those that have a two pedal setup, its there choice though over realism verses competitiveness. Really I dont see alot of difference with setting up a macro in your logitec software it's a choice over realism for competitiveness. It's up to the developers to reduce the advantage, I think it's unproductive to criminalise idividuals for such choices when clearly it's not hacking, coding or using the wheel software or LFS in any way other than intended by the manufacturers.

RocksGt

17th July 2008, 06:59

(i was thinking they might do this coz the spanish champ has hotlap qualy by downloading HL times via script,as the hungarian champ had once.So whatever is the hotlap time,thats your qualy time in champ.<--- its lol :shrug: )
This is not correct :really:

We have a ~1 hour race every monday, and we use to be about 100 racers, so we have to make several divisions for everyone to race at the same hour and with people who makes similar times :nod:

So the automatic inscription system for the league works like this:

- You must have both a HL and an online time for the combination. If the HL it's not present, then your time for the inscription (not the qualy, just the inscription for sorting the divisions) is your onlime time * 2. If the online time it's not present then you will have a total time of 40 hours and then you'll apply for the last division. Anyway, your online time cannot be less than 99.6% of the HL for avoiding people taking cuts on chicanes or another "facilities" :smileypul

- While people apply for the race during the week (at any time you can refresh your inscription time) the automatic system is balancing the divisions to assure that all divisions will have about the same amount of racers. Must say that if you race one week in first division, the next week you can race in another division, it just depends on your inscription time (HL + online as explained above)

- Monday at 20:15 pm the inscription is closed and the conditions (weather and ilumination) and the pass is setted for the race. At 22:15 the qualy is on. Every racer must enter the server assigned for his division an make a 15 minutes qualy. 22:30 qualy is off, 5 minutes to visit the bath and cigar time and at 22:35 the race starts :nod:

- At the end of the race both qualy and race replays must be uploaded to our FTP and via LFS-Stats the results are obtained and published at the web (usually on tuesday morning).

I hope I've explained it clear, sorry for my english :schwitz:

Chaos

17th July 2008, 08:11

hmmm, and what about using manual clutch, with a pedal, buttons to shift (not H-gate shifter) and having the clutch calibrated so, that it disengages almost instantly when you touch the pedal? I guess that with a little practice its possible to shift even faster than with the script...
is this also cheating?

migf1

17th July 2008, 08:18

Glenn, the whole point is that the script is external to LFS plus that it gives an advantage. All the other things you mentioned are ingame options ;)

[RF]-art555

17th July 2008, 08:27

Chaos

17th July 2008, 08:33

ok, so this way its not a cheat, but then how do you recognize who uses a script and who learned this?

Glenn67

17th July 2008, 08:44

Glenn, the whole point is that the script is external to LFS plus that it gives an advantage. All the other things you mentioned are ingame options ;)

Well that's just it, a macro is using current ingame options that as Choas and Sidi mention can be done manually all a macro is doing is automating it much like we used to have auto blip for example :shrug:

migf1

17th July 2008, 08:44

Glenn67

17th July 2008, 08:46

So, if I understand it correctly, any LFS laptime lacking the CL and the AC flag on LFSW is most probably done via the script, am I right?

For example, in the attachment below, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th most probabaly have used the script?

Or it could be someone that actually has a clutch pedal or manually clutching with a button, that's it you can't know for certain :shrug:

migf1

17th July 2008, 08:51

Well that's just it, a macro is using current ingame options that as Choas and Sidi mention can be done manually all a macro is doing is automating it much like we used to have auto blip for example :shrug:
Yeap, it's like auto blip which was removed for a reason I guess in recent patches. The script is external to LFS and makes gearshfting super fast effortlessly. When you're playing with hundrends and tenths of seconds, It's a tremendeous boost only to know that you always get perfect shifting with no room for shfting error whatsoever.

1303s_vortech

17th July 2008, 09:04

-art555;867253']... It takes quite a lot of practice to learn to time all the actions well.

Just keep in minds that the most of us has a plastic bit under the feet...
Let's just say it :
Heavy foot = hardware problem soon :shrug:...
(this apply to a button also)...

Glenn67

17th July 2008, 09:51

super fast effortlessly

Just like with mouse steering or wheel with low steering rotation ;) which I assure you gives more off an advantage.

Personally I'd like too see an equal playing field as much as the next person, I just can't see why you would call an clutch macro more of a cheat than wheel rotation setting.

migf1

17th July 2008, 10:03

Because it's extrenal to LFS.

word.

17th July 2008, 10:04

I call this a cheat. I just tried it, what an advantage! it makes downshifts perfect. better than sequential gearbox...

Anyone who uses this is a llama

Racon

17th July 2008, 10:17

FlintFredstone

17th July 2008, 10:24

Hi Guys,

I need to add to this debate, due to me using a button clutch 'macro' when im using the FBM, years ago i damaged my right foot and it gives me problems when i use it a lot, up untill the fbm i had no problems 'lift shifting' but after about 20mins in the fbm my foot kills me because of the fast and long vertical movement, i already have my gas pedal calibrated so that i only use the bottom two thirds to help me with lifting.

Anyway to cut a long story short i use a 'clutch down, shift button down, delay, shift button up, delay, clutch up' macro, this allows me to do a 'half lift' shift, but and a big but! it actually makes me slower at changing gears because the fbm changes gears fast, my delays actually slow the change and also heat the clutch, so much so that i have to put my gearing much closer than i would normally run and be carefull on the timing of my foot down.

So the moral of this story is that macro's are not all bad and for performance, mine is for personel comfort, am i cheating?

BTW all other cars i run auto clutch or h shift with clutch.

Simon

SpeedXP

17th July 2008, 10:57

Flint, yes .. if you get a better time than them, you'll be a cheater, otherwise, no matter at all :D

[DUcK]

17th July 2008, 10:58

I participe in a league http://ligainternacional.org and each two weeks, we have a new combo. The actual is SO5-UFRorXFR. The previous wr with UFR was done by zero_0 with a lap time 1:20.650.
Aclaration: Before patch Z, the wr was 1:20:10
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/2847/so5ufrva4.jpg
So by displaying those images you're agreeing that it's faster? :shrug:

MaKaKaZo

17th July 2008, 11:03

About the autoclutch topic. Autoclutch was introduced in LFS as a necessity. We NEED the autoclutch to change gears using most controller configurations. But remember, we are using autoclutch on manual cars. So the devs must find a good autoclutch system that won't give people using it a major advantage over the ones using a clutch pedal. It wouldn't be fair to have an autoclutch system in a manual car that works as good as a pure sequential gearbox. So Scawen tries to tweak the autoclutch so it's well balanced against manual clutching, and people who don't have a clutch pedal don't have a great advantage over the ones who do.

Then button clutch appears as a means to get better shifting times, and turning what is supposed to be a simulation of a driver pressing/releasing the clutch pedal into something more like a full sequential gearbox. So, even if you can do it because the game allows it, it's indeed totally against the spirit of the game. This is not different from making a script that performs perfect gear blips when downshifting, when it was already removed from the game.

Another thing that I'd like to know is if it gives you any advantage in terms of clutch overheating. Does this button clutch cause the clutch temperature to rise less or more than autoclutch? It would be interesting to know.

In my opinion it should be studied and solved somehow. I don't know how, maybe having a static, non-configurable button rate for the clutch button.

Now, about cheating:

Let's think -again- about LFS vs real life driving. We are playing a simulator that tries to portray reality as best as possible. To achieve that we play using several kind of controllers that don't match those used in the cars that we are driving in the game.

Many people -I'd say most of us- have wheels with only two pedals, and don't have a clutch pedal. With those settings we are driving manual cars like XFG, XRG, the TBO class, etc. In real life we would need to press the clutch pedal to shift gears, but as we don't have a clutch we use autoclutch. I think everybody thinks this is ok, as somehow we must be able to shift gears! Now, how many of you use left foot braking with these cars? I'm sure that a lot of people do. Is that cheating?

Things that some people consider cheating:

Using a custom view.
Left foot braking in manual cars.
Up-shifting by pressing the clutch instead of releasing the gas pedal (in cars like the MRT or the FBM).
Copying setup parameters available in lfsworld analyser tool.
Using less degrees of rotation in your wheel than the actual car.
Using paddles instead of a shifter (even if you don't have one, then go and buy it! That's what they say...)
Turning smoke/dirt option to minimum in rally races to have a better view.
And a long etc.

People should be a little more open minded about cheating. There are a lot of things that will give you an advantage -big or small-, but... is it really worth it? Some of these things don't deserve a single word, but things like button clutch should be discussed seriously, with arguments. There are a lot of words in this thread but very few people tried to give a reason why button clutch should or shouldn't be used.

diablo21

17th July 2008, 11:09

;867339']So by displaying those images you're agreeing that it's faster? :shrug:

As i've been saying before...

I hope you understand that the script won't give him a second advantage. It's just him being faster (and this is not given by the script).

diablo21

17th July 2008, 11:10

Another thing that I'd like to know is if it gives you any advantage in terms of clutch overheating. Does this button clutch cause the clutch temperature to rise less or more than autoclutch? It would be interesting to know.

AFAIK the clutch burns even faster.

Edit: Sorry for double post :S

LiveForBoobs

17th July 2008, 11:15

If this script is cheating, so is digital speedo. You might not notice on fast cars, but on slow cars every 0.1kmh counts, and knowing exactly the speed you're going gives a great unfair advantage to those that simply install the game and have to figure it out by the normal speedometer.

kaynd

17th July 2008, 11:20

Just like with mouse steering or wheel with low steering rotation ;) which I assure you gives more off an advantage.

Driving with mouse has already a big disadvantage by not having proper throttle and brake control.
Also it takes some skill from your hand to be accurate and fast with the mouse...
It doesn’t steer by itself...
It's completely irrelevant. Many of us already have answered to that in previews pages, and you keep repeating it again and again…

I have been a mouse driver for 3 years in demo&S2 and for the last 2 years I use a wheel so I am in position to know the advantages and disadvantages of mouse steering.

migf1

17th July 2008, 11:22

Just like with mouse steering or wheel with low steering rotation ;) which I assure you gives more off an advantage.
[snip]

I'd like to comment seprately on this! Low steering rotation hurts badly your tyres, epsecially with understeery cars. When racing this may be a huge disadvantage.

In hotlapping, low rotation surely helps in corner entry (notably in slow corners) but it also ruins corner exit (notably fast, medium bended ones). In hotlapping, optimum tyre temp is crucial for the good laptime, so using too low wheel rotation you risk to screw the exit of the most important corners (those who preceed straights) because tyre heat occurs much much faster (low rotation = prone to understeer).

Now don't get me wrong, low rotation steering does help in general to improve your laptimes, but it does so in the short run. Also, in a lot of tracks and especially with fwd cars, when your fighting for the last couple of hundrends (or even tenths) low rotation steering becomes more of an enemy instead of a friend ;)

Glenn67

17th July 2008, 11:25

Because it's extrenal to LFS.

So is wheel rotation :p if you don't set it in logitec profiler the ingame option want have any effect...

And about the above, sorry but I disagree I can do a 1 1/2 hour race with 240deg just fine... but I also could drive fast with an xbox controller in long races :x

@kaynd I just use it to make a point I don't think its wrong to use a mouse :p I actually respect mouse dirviers as I certainly couldn't drive with one lol

Anyway guys if you read my posts carefully you will see that I actually agree that something should be done about the fast gear changes from within LFS, I don't dispute that. I just dispute vilafying anyone that may have used or uses a macro to change gears. And also wanted to point out that if you persue realism in LFS in all options then you are more than likely going to be slower than someone who doesn't.

Racon

17th July 2008, 11:31

aceracer

17th July 2008, 11:41

I think we have to differentiate between something that is a cheat and sth that is unsportsmanlike behaviour.

A cheat is clearly defined, it's using and illegal tool/strategy/behaviour.

Unsportsmanlike behaviour is not clearly defined, it's a greyzone and different people have different perceptions. there willnever be agreement on it.

Example: I raced against a guy the other day who got angry at me for attacking him when behind or defending my position when in front. My fastest lap was 15hundreths slower than his. He stated it was unsportsmanlike. I should just follow him and learn his line, only if my fastest lap is within 5 hundreths I should dare race him.

This was his understanding of fairness. Mine was that a race is a race, and if I'm slower but in front then I can defend m position (fairly of course).

We will never agree on this.

The same goes for the button "trick". It's not illegal as it's in the game - it may be considered unfair, that depends on your perception of what is fair. There will never be any agreement on this.

I read a very interesting article on moral and ethics in different cultures. Since Spanish drivers were singled out here, maybe an attempt to at least propose an explanation. Spainsh and Italian cultures have a different perception of what is really cheating to German or Swedish cultures. From a catholic cultural background which has dominated these countries for centuries the difference between what "appears to be" and what "is" is seen in a much more relaxed way. Why northern and more protestant cultures more strictly apply one to the other.

I say this without any negative connotation whatsoever! I am married to a spanish woman and I live in Spain although I am German. And I love being here and have the highest respect for how people here live their lives!

But just a few examples:

A spanish person will say "ahora mismo" (straight away, right now) and it can happen hours later, but no-one would seriously remind them of the fact that they promised it hours ago. What is said and what is done is not seen with the same strictness as it would be in Germany, where if someone says "right now" it is "right now".

It is normal for a Spanish or Italian person to get the most out of whatever they can by not necessarily applying all the rules 100% as intended. This does not make them dishonest, it's a different interpretation of how things should work. No-one in Italy declares all their taxes and 30% of civil servants in Italy never show up for work. This does not make them less honest or less respectable, it's just how things work there.

At the Tour de France, Italian and Spanish teams have a completely different interpretation of what is doping and what is not. For them pushing what's allowed to the limit is self understood and has no negative connotations. The press celebrates the great victories of Pantani (caught doping) and Contador (not caught) while German press just presents them as junkies.

There are many many more examples.

So unless something is entirely removed from the game there will always be differences on what is fair and what is not and there will not be any agreement on it. This does not make one person more "right" and another more "wrong" - we may not agree with them, but we use our own values to judge another persons, which may be quite different for the above mentioned reasons.

Therefore we need a strictly regulated environment to compete in. And this environment is what in the game and what's not. I for one do not think it's cool to use button clutch and I won't do it (G25) - I do however think it should be removed from the game if your wheel/joystick/whatever has the available axes.
Removing it from the game eliminates the greyzone and margin of interpretation - and makes the 15 mins I spent typing this completely useless - lol :)

aceracer

theirishnoob

17th July 2008, 11:48

Use whatever you like imho: its a game, if using aids makes you better, by all means...

migf1

17th July 2008, 11:51

[snip]
And about the above, sorry but I disagree I can do a 1 1/2 hour race with 240deg just fine... but I also could drive fast with an xbox controller in long races :x
[snip]

Racing or... cruising? :razz:

I'd love to see you racing competitevly (how is this thing spelled? :D) for example with the XFR in 1 1/2 hours race using 240 deg... let's say in FE :)

Anyway guys if you read my posts carefully you will see that I actually agree that something should be done about the fast gear changes from within LFS, I don't dispute that. I just dispute vilafying anyone that may have used or uses a macro to change gears. And also wanted to point out that if you persue realism in LFS in all options then you are more than likely going to be slower than someone who doesn't.

No argument that we don't play level, due to different setings and equipment. The thing is what is considered legal or ethical, based on the available options ingame. Following your logic, I wonder why Scawen blocked TweakLFS on the master server! :D:D:D

Glenn67

17th July 2008, 11:51

Good post aceracer, sums up one aspect of what I've been trying to convey better than I could :thumb:

@migf1 I can assure you there a some better than me that could do it at near WR pace with little problem, I am of course not that fast but have confidence it's possible to do at say 102 - 103% of WR pace.

It's not cheating as it is something that is documented in the wheel software and it isn't doing anything to LFS other than what you can do with your bare hands.

I would call it an exploit that possibly needs to be fixed at some point (no different to the high nose exploit before), but to go arround and slander people for doing something that logitec and LFS has enabled/allowed is just abit over the top imo.

As Sidi has said this is nothing new it's been known about for years (I've known about it since 2004 and the majority of old timers in LFS would know about it) and anyone that reads the info that comes with their wheel would be able to work it out. It's not a hack or cheat in the true sense of the word, it's just using a standard feature of your wheel software in a way that is considered unsportsmanlike in LFS.

Biohazard

17th July 2008, 12:12

aceracer is the first spaniard actually posting something useful in this thread. :)

oh, and the first one not desperately trying to justify the use of clutch-macros too.

edit: oh well, damn it. :D
will leave that post so you all can point and laugh. :)

FlintFredstone

17th July 2008, 12:16

aceracer is the first spaniard actually posting something useful in this thread. :)

I think he is german :)

Glenn67

17th July 2008, 12:18

I think he is german :)

I think he knew that :nod: :razz:

birder

17th July 2008, 12:19

Well said Aceracer, i am so glad you are in my team rather than against it

Do me a favour, Add [CD] Aceracer to you profile to show you are proud to be with us.

And "Do it right now" which sort of means "when you like"

Now all what you said has a serious flaw and that is who says it.

You have a spanish wife and you are german but i think the following rules apply in all countries.

When your wife says "ahora mismo" or "Get off that bloody computer game", this has the same meaning in spanish, german, french and english and it refers "right this second"

Eg. in my house the words "I need the computer to bid on ebay" means "right this second, if not faster", as bids are timed to the milli-second

Where as if i was to say "Can i go back on LFS, i have a league race starting" this has the real meaning of "will you be finished in an hour or two, sweetheart"

RocksGt

17th July 2008, 12:22

aceracer is the first spaniard actually posting something useful in this thread. :)

oh, and the first one not desperately trying to justify the use of clutch-macros too.
Oh, sorry if I only wrote crap, I tried to clarify a couple of things that was not 100% correct :nod:

Sir moi 407

17th July 2008, 12:23

Comon people
Ask your self: Why didn't Scawen do a clutch that is as fast as with that "mod" ? Why???
In LFS there is a way to but autoclutch and you found a way to autoclutch faster than LFS do... Yea I call that a cheat :really:
Stop comparing to thing like putting 250 degrees in a wheel because the difference is that LFS gives us that option! That would be a cheat if LFS putted the wheel at 900degrees and with an external programm we changed that option and putted 250 degrees.

Actually Scawen can't do anything against this so if you think it's unfair don't use it, if you don't care use it :shrug:

Bean0

17th July 2008, 12:30

Actually Scawen can't do anything against this so if you think it's unfair don't use it, if you don't care use it :shrug:

Removal of button clutch as an option is the only solution really.

Sir moi 407

17th July 2008, 12:33

I'm sure they will find a way to make the computer think that a button is an axe :shrug:
But that's true: no one uses clutch button :scratchch

diablo21

17th July 2008, 12:36

Biohazard

17th July 2008, 12:39

...

thought it was obvious i was clearly hyperbolizing...

And not only spaniards ;)

:tilt:

aceracer

17th July 2008, 12:43

Do me a favour, Add [CD] Aceracer to you profile to show you are proud to be with us.

Yes Boss! Done, proudly! :)

Indeed, when she says "ahora mismo" she means within a delay so short it can't be measured by anything available on this planet.

Then I reply: "Si, ahora mismo" - which usually means by the time I really do disconnect I'm in major trouble already ... or in an ideal scenario she fell asleep before I did and I can play all night :D

I wonder if that's a cheat? :scratchch It's definitely not sportsmanlike behaviour, lol :D

[CD]aceracer

[DUcK]

17th July 2008, 12:47

As i've been saying before...

I hope you understand that the script won't give him a second advantage. It's just him being faster (and this is not given by the script).

Bonk. I know that mate.. Don't think I'm an idiot. But what he showed was two people with not an auto clutch out infront :tilt:

The main reason why it's faster is because the clutch engages and disengages in less distance than the auto, therefore you don't lose as much speed. It's almost exact same as what I'm going to race irl. There's two types of gearbox, the synchro box and the 'dogbox'. The synchro is pretty much standard, you have to engage clutch to shift, lift of the gas then release clutch again. The dogbox you don't even have to use clutch, you just have to lift off then bang the next gear in. There is up to .5 - 1 second a lap to be made up with a dogbox, depending on the track, the only problem is; they cost over $5k. On the data we were using, the dogbox would engage the next gear in about 35-40ft, whereas the synchro it would take you around 80+ft to shift up gears. That's a huge advantage.
What I'm saying is that the dogbox vs synchro is a similar situation to the auto vs macro clutch, the only difference is, is that the auto vs macro is more of a reputation thing, and more objective, whereas the dogbox is legal and just comes down to money. They are also similar because the dogbox lasts longer - as does the macro clutch (it keeps the clutch cooler because the clutch spends less time engaged).

I really think that it's just an opinion thing, and that this whole thread is just years of people building up their anger about the clutch then finally letting it all out in this thread :razz:

Anyway, happy racing, see you all on the track sometime :thumb:

Glenn67

17th July 2008, 13:20

Comon people Ask your self: Why didn't Scawen do a clutch that is as fast as with that "mod" ? Why???

Ah but it is configurable to be just as fast without a macro (it can be done with keyboard, joystick, mouse any controller), that's the thing...

All the macro does is enable you to set one key press to equal two key presses. For example on your keyboard by default LFS has c programed for clutch s for up gear and x for down gear. If you go to options and set button control rate to 10 in LFS then when you want to change up a gear you press s and c simultaneously it will change gear just as fast as a recroded macro. Obviously it's not as easy to press two buttons as it is to press one, so some have chosen to use the inbuilt functions of the logitec software to program two key press to one button. So the logitech software is not allowing the altra fast gear changes it is LFS that allows the altrafast gear change by enabling you to set button conrtol rate to 10.

The logetch software can't force LFS to do anything that is not already supported in LFS.

And I'm not complaining about the 240deg thing, I am merly using it to illustrate a point.

Sir moi 407

17th July 2008, 13:26

All the macro does is enable you to set one key press to equal two key presses.
That is an external option not an LFS one... What I said is still true:shrug:

Glenn67

17th July 2008, 13:34

That is an external option not an LFS one... What I said is still true:shrug:

Yes but it doesn't allow you to do it faster than you can do it within LFS, it just allows you to do it easier. Abit like using a wheel is easier than using the mouse to steer. So it somewhat reduces the cheating charge no? As I said before it can best be described as an exploit, and I'd be very suprised if a solution to stop this exploit can't be engineered from within LFS as several have previously suggested. All it would need is to reduce the max button control rate configurable within LFS for the clutch to a more "fair" level and the problem is solved.

MaKaKaZo

17th July 2008, 13:53

;867422']They are also similar because the dogbox lasts longer - as does the macro clutch (it keeps the clutch cooler because the clutch spends less time engaged).

Someone said earlier in the post that the macro clutch makes the clutch heat up faster. Later someone told me that it's not a good choice for races as clutch overheating become a real problem with macro clutch.

In one post someone said that having the clutch in a button is necessary in some situations for people that don't have a clutch pedal. Can anyone explain why? I didn't get what he said, and I have never used the clutch "manually" using a button/key, and I don't see in which situations I would need it.

aceracer

17th July 2008, 14:09

Since we're using analogies: Take a game of "Street Fighter".

You can do all the combos manually.

Or you can record a macro for your joystick. Hit a button and it executes the combo for you.

It will do this quicker and more reliably. However it will only do what is allowed by the game: a sequence of putton pushes.

Cheat? Fair fighter?

Same with the button clutch macro. It only allows yu what the game allows itself. But faster and more reliably.

Cheat? Fair racer?

One thing is for sure, I prefer to fight/race humans rather than machines. But they can't do anything the game doesn't allow naturally either...

aceracer

Sir moi 407

17th July 2008, 14:30

Yes but it doesn't allow you to do it faster than you can do it within LFS, it just allows you to do it easier. Abit like using a wheel is easier than using the mouse to steer. So it somewhat reduces the cheating charge no? As I said before it can best be described as an exploit, and I'd be very suprised if a solution to stop this exploit can't be engineered from within LFS as several have previously suggested. All it would need is to reduce the max button control rate configurable within LFS for the clutch to a more "fair" level and the problem is solved.
It's easier AND faster :shrug:

Glenn67

17th July 2008, 14:36

It's easier AND faster :shrug:

Well so is using auto clutch and sequential shifting easier and faster than using a H pattern gear shifter and clutch pedal :shrug:

e2mustang

17th July 2008, 14:43

This is not correct :really:

We have a ~1 hour race every monday, and we use to be about 100 racers, so we have to make several divisions for everyone to race at the same hour and with people who makes similar times :nod:

So the automatic inscription system for the league works like this:

- You must have both a HL and an online time for the combination. If the HL it's not present, then your time for the inscription (not the qualy, just the inscription for sorting the divisions) is your onlime time * 2. If the online time it's not present then you will have a total time of 40 hours and then you'll apply for the last division. Anyway, your online time cannot be less than 99.6% of the HL for avoiding people taking cuts on chicanes or another "facilities" :smileypul

- While people apply for the race during the week (at any time you can refresh your inscription time) the automatic system is balancing the divisions to assure that all divisions will have about the same amount of racers. Must say that if you race one week in first division, the next week you can race in another division, it just depends on your inscription time (HL + online as explained above)

- Monday at 20:15 pm the inscription is closed and the conditions (weather and ilumination) and the pass is setted for the race. At 22:15 the qualy is on. Every racer must enter the server assigned for his division an make a 15 minutes qualy. 22:30 qualy is off, 5 minutes to visit the bath and cigar time and at 22:35 the race starts :nod:

- At the end of the race both qualy and race replays must be uploaded to our FTP and via LFS-Stats the results are obtained and published at the web (usually on tuesday morning).

I hope I've explained it clear, sorry for my english :schwitz:
yeah i understand,we had similiar,HL made it which server u will race A,B,C.. etc and then online qualy made your race position.

mythdat

17th July 2008, 14:48

This is an external application that is used specifically to gain an advantage within LFS.

It's a cheat, imo.

chanoman315

17th July 2008, 15:16

Turning smoke/dirt option to minimum in rally races to have a better view.That's BS... the fps play a big role here ;)

Sir moi 407

17th July 2008, 15:47

Well so is using auto clutch and sequential shifting easier and faster than using a H pattern gear shifter and clutch pedal :shrug:
I'm repeating the same thing :D
LFS gives us these options (sequential shifting + autoclutch) but this thing is an EXTERNAL application that makes you go faster in LFS.
And that, I call cheating :really:
Maybe a "legal cheat" but a cheat:(

Bawbag

17th July 2008, 16:02

Someone said earlier in the post that the macro clutch makes the clutch heat up faster. Later someone told me that it's not a good choice for races as clutch overheating become a real problem with macro clutch.

In one post someone said that having the clutch in a button is necessary in some situations for people that don't have a clutch pedal. Can anyone explain why? I didn't get what he said, and I have never used the clutch "manually" using a button/key, and I don't see in which situations I would need it.

Using a macro causes teh clutch to heat up less than normal autoclutch, because the macro changes gear to much faster there is less slipping of the clutch during gear changes which just means less heat.

So with cars like the FZR i'm pretty sure with a macro you can flat shift all the time and have no heat problems, when with autoclutch you have to lift on gearchanges or your clutch will overheat.

On the topic of is it or isn't it cheating, it is, your taking an unfair advantage over your opponents. About two years ago I used the button clutch for XFG at blackwood because "everyone" done it, it gave less advantage back then and on every shift I would have to press the clutch at the right time, so it was faster when you done it properly but now when everyone is just setting up a macro it's just retarded. They are shifting in the same way as we are, nothing more nothing less, yet they are gaining up to half a second a lap.... :scratchch

People who use it are just weak and desperate, end of.

MaKaKaZo

17th July 2008, 16:14

Using a macro causes teh clutch to heat up less than normal autoclutch, because the macro changes gear to much faster there is less slipping of the clutch during gear changes which just means less heat.

Have you actually checked this or are you talking just out of "what the physhics should be"? Because two people who have used the macro have already told me that with the macro clutch the temp gets higher. I'm not going to test it anyway.

And now I ask again why would someone need manual clutch in a button. In what circumstances is that useful?

Bawbag

17th July 2008, 16:22

The only use I can think of having the manual clutch is bump starting the car, the other reason I thought of was holding the clutch in on the start line and putting the car into first gear, though you don't even need to have manual clutch on in order to do this.

As for the temperatures, I trust the one person who told me that it helps the clutch temperature as he is not as dumb as he seems, and yes he done his testing with it.

FlintFredstone

17th July 2008, 16:36

Just to reiterate it, on the fbm it is a disadvantage (probably no more than .1-.2 secs) and it heats the clutch up badly if you dont do a extended lift every change, my situation is probably unique though as im using it to save my foot.

with my clutch 'macro' i can neither get a faster change or a flat change or a reliable change over anyone else. If the fast button clutch system is removed all i will do is shorten my gas pedal throw even further to compensate, so it doesnt matter to me if its there or not i will adapt.

Of course for the h shift cars i think it would definately be considered 'cheeky' as minimum and unfair at worse, i think if scawen just stops the button clutch speed (engauge speed, leave disengauge for anti-stall) a little it would combat the problem straight away

Simon

BigTime

17th July 2008, 16:38

On the topic of is it or isn't it cheating, it is, your taking an unfair advantage over your opponents. About two years ago I used the button clutch for XFG at blackwood because "everyone" done it, it gave less advantage back then and on every shift I would have to press the clutch at the right time, so it was faster when you done it properly but now when everyone is just setting up a macro it's just retared. They are shifting in the same way as we are, nothing more nothing less, yet they are gaining up to half a second a lap.... :scratchch

People who use it are just weak and desperate, end of.

+1, It's just that simple guys.

I think if scawen just stops the button clutch speed (engauge speed, leave disengauge for anti-stall) a little it would combat the problem straight away

Simon

That might do the trick. :scratchch

arco

17th July 2008, 16:49

And now I ask again why would someone need manual clutch in a button. In what circumstances is that useful?

The only use I can think of having the manual clutch is bump starting the car, the other reason I thought of was holding the clutch in on the start line and putting the car into first gear, though you don't even need to have manual clutch on in order to do this.

I have a manual clutch assigned to one of my wheel buttons. I use it when doing 360's in the RB4/FXR warming up the tires. It helps when the revs get so low that the car is nearly stalling, I then just engages the clutch to help raise the revs so the car can keep spinning.

kaynd

17th July 2008, 16:56

Removal of button clutch as an option is the only solution really.

Why? can't it be just as fast as the autoclutch?

You need to have a clutch of some sort when you have a wheel or whatever controller without clutch axis...
It's part of the car's controll.. no need to explain why you may need to operate it manualy.

Töki (HUN)

17th July 2008, 16:57

I hope Scawen reads this thread, and share his view with us. I would be interested in it.

Kdovi

17th July 2008, 17:13

I'm pretty sure he doesn't read 7 pages long flame war :x

arco

17th July 2008, 17:17

I'm pretty sure he doesn't read 7 pages long flame war :x
If it was, I'm pretty sure this thread would have been locked a long time ago. :)

Jakg

17th July 2008, 17:20

I hope Scawen reads this thread, and share his view with us. I would be interested in it.
If I was Scawen (and had time to read this thread) i wouldn't reply at all - i'd make my decision and act upon it, and then maybe make a quick "well I feel that it's [whatever]" post using my second account...

BigTime

17th July 2008, 17:27

If I was Scawen (and had time to read this thread) i wouldn't reply at all - i'd make my decision and act upon it, and then maybe make a quick "well I feel that it's [whatever]" post using my second account...

Anything would be sufficient. Who knows though, they may be working on a solution to the problem as we speak... :shrug:

Worm

17th July 2008, 17:30

wow lol nearly 15 000 POST jakg !!!
Gratz ^^

Jakg

17th July 2008, 17:32

Gratz on having 105 posts and still being able to kick my ass in every car i've ever driven.

gezmoor

17th July 2008, 17:45

Very simple as far as I'm concerned. The script is not provided as part of the games code, so by definition it's an addition. This therefore makes it a cheat if it gives any advantage no matter how small over people using the original game code with no modifications. If it modifies code to gain improved performance in the game world then it's a cheat. It is in fact the definition of a cheat in the world of gaming.

Worm

17th July 2008, 18:43

well 2.06.30 on AS3 RB4 I let a message at the end of the replay.

pine-fin

17th July 2008, 18:50

Hah! I've been wondering why almost everyone has the 'ac' mark on LFSW hotlaps anyways.. :scratchch

fujiwara

17th July 2008, 20:05

How about we create a hotlap championship using only the cheat/exploit ?:D

migf1

17th July 2008, 20:12

How about keep using the existant, legitimate system without using any cheats/exploits? :)

fujiwara

17th July 2008, 20:18

How about keep using the existant, legitimate system without using any cheats/exploits? :)

That way we never get to know who has the bigger winnie, and in a few months this returns in another thread.
A few patchs ago , saving 2 or 3 gears and using a single shift was very commom...

BigTime

17th July 2008, 20:51

How about keep using the existant, legitimate system without using any cheats/exploits? :)

+1

Hugo and me where having a conversation earlier and I was wondering... How many times have you seen a button clutch in real life? :cry:

If all your going to say is that this is a game then please understand that this is a simulator, not NFS.

hugoluis

17th July 2008, 21:54

I think it's a cheat.

Losing a race for a cheater is the same thing as winning the race and the cheater doesnt existing.

Do not forget, my friends, there will always be someone cheating the rules! And the desire to be able, to like, to have, will always want to try to be better than the other people for some way. That is the nature of humans.

That is why I am not mad those who seek to cheat. They have bad-fame, I do not. I always search for the fair side, I always value the respect, the passion of the simulator.

A cheater to me is a person that lacks respect for others.

DHRammstein

17th July 2008, 22:11

It may not be official yet, but I think deep down everyone knows this is absolutely a cheat. I'm a long time PC gamer, beta tester, even some modding, and this is absolutely the definition of a cheat. At this exact moment in time some may be conflicted, but look at it this way.

If it were made clearly by the dev's/programmers that it "WAS" a cheat, probably only 5% of racers would have an issue with it. However, if it were made clear that it was "NOT" a cheat, I absolutely believe more than half of all racers would have a problem with it.

kaynd

17th July 2008, 22:29

Hugo and me where having a conversation earlier and I was wondering... How many times have you seen a button clutch in real life? :cry:

If all your going to say is that this is a game then please understand that this is a simulator, not NFS.

Buttons instead of proper axis controls are there so you can drive in a way without having a wheel & analog pedals...
That doesn't mean that LFS is not a simulator... you can fit a real car with several servo control systems and drive it with a mouse or keys... it's just not practical in real life.

The problem is not the existence of the button... it's just have to be slower so it doesn't give an unrealistic advantage that also overcomes gearbox restrictions.

migf1

17th July 2008, 22:33

Doorman

17th July 2008, 23:26

.... Using scripts to do pit limiters and so-on is fine....
Sorry if this is a quote from way back on page 2. I've read every post in this thread and no-one has picked up on this. Duke, do I understand that you think it's fine to have a script that enables the pit limiter to engage/disengage automatically? Surely that means one could never get a Drive through penalty! :really: The question of whether a script for gear changing leaves me unmoved as we're talking about nanoseconds but a pit limiter script sounds very much like cheating. :scratchch

richo

17th July 2008, 23:35

Calvinaquino

18th July 2008, 01:06

I consider it an exploit. not as heavy as a cheat but it wouldnt feel nice if i knew the only reason i lose to that guy is because he does this.
I just think its wrong, and if i had a G25, i would do everything possible manual, even if it requires me to re-learn some stuff or slow my laptimes (they arent that great anyway). Damn i paid for clutch pedal an H- shifter. and it feels cooler and more realistic.

You said its because it uses an external program, but is that program made entirelly JUST for cheating? i dont think the logitech programmers did this just so you can win easier... thats why i dont consider it a cheat myself. It feels kinda nice knowing that he used the cheat to win. That means he sucks.Hard.

[plidex] mateo

18th July 2008, 01:32

It feels kinda nice knowing that he used the cheat to win. That means he sucks.Hard.

i agree :D

richo

18th July 2008, 01:34

The fact remains that you cant make this "cheat" thingo work just using LFS alone,a third party program makes it happen.

It may not be a cheat as such but its definitely not kosher and i think everyone knows it,using anything apart from the original game/sim to gain advantage is wrong.Controllers excluded on the basis that they are coded for in LFS.

Glenn67

18th July 2008, 01:57

Buttons instead of proper axis controls are there so you can drive in a way without having a wheel & analog pedals...
That doesn't mean that LFS is not a simulator... you can fit a real car with several servo control systems and drive it with a mouse or keys... it's just not practical in real life.

The problem is not the existence of the button... it's just have to be slower so it doesn't give an unrealistic advantage that also overcomes gearbox restrictions.

Exactly, this exploit/cheat would not exist without LFS clutch button and more specifically the button control rate setting being available for the clutch button.

The speed of this exploit/cheat comes from LFS options the ease of it comes from the logitech profiler, so if you were not able to program the button control rate so high then assigning a macro to press two keys simultaneously would only give the same effect as a normal sequential shifter in game. So therefore it is not the external application giving the advantage here. It is LFS options. Which is why I conclude it is a stretch to label it as a cheat over an exploit.

Where this is not the case with deg of wheel rotation if it were restricted in LFS to say 720 deg you could override it in your logitec software so that you only use 240deg but the game would still see 720deg. So by this definition having a low deg of steering wheel rotation in a road car is potentially more of a cheat than the fast gear changes.

The reason I have posted so much on this is because I really dislike and think it is counter productive to go around and publicly label people cheats for things that haven't been used outside normal manufacturer inetentions. The button control rate is a normal option in LFS, macro's have been arround in computers since the dawn of time and are apart of the logitech profiler program, nobody has gone and hacked LFS or the logitech wheel.

At best it can be seen as unsportsmanlike behaviour (which many take this stance) Now hopefully something will be done in the future to prevent this exploit being a further problem, but that must be done from within LFS.

Lastly I'm probably going to get labeled or at least thought of suspicoiusly as a cheat for so strongly defending - I don't really care, because the people that know me well enough will know I'm not :p The reason of my posts though is it's so easy to jump on band wagons/raise posies/be a part of a lynch mob and go after the percieved villin.

Hey at least one has said I'm taking note of those cheaters and (effectively) saying their sub human. Well just to be clear again I don't use the gear change macro (really I don't feel any need to) but I am experimenting with low deg of wheel rotation. Which in my view does make me a cheat (so please add me to the list), but I guess because it's accepted that it's a widely used practise that can't possibley be monitored that it is ok :shrug:

Anyway I think it's healthy to have good discusions about things that effect LFS and for the most part we have had that in this thread, so I congratulate everyone on that point :)

wheel4hummer

18th July 2008, 03:28

Exactly, this exploit/cheat would not exist without LFS clutch button

Yes, it would. There is a script command to invert an axis.

/invert [1/0] [axis]

:nod:

mrodgers

18th July 2008, 03:33

If it requires an external program then yes it smells bad, if you can do it within the confines of the LFS program then it has to be ok.

Personally i think its a cheat , it requires another external program to work.

Pure and simple, there's no grey area no matter how many pages of discussion there is...
Using this definition, everyone who uses DXTweak to adjust the clutch pedal axis is using a cheat as DXTweak is every bit of an external program as the Profiler is.

chanoman315

18th July 2008, 03:36

Profiler is a driver for the wheel, i dont see it like a cheat if that's what you're trying to say.

richo

18th July 2008, 03:42

How does adjusting pedals/wheels/joystick's axis mean the same as advantage?

Adjusting the range or travel of anything does not automate a process?

FFS that just silly, one program allows you to fix axis's the other automates a procedure.

Pushing button A should =Button A, not Button A= Button A+invert+reinvert+milk the cows+polish my shoes+release clutch

Chalk and Cheese (which is produced by pressing Button A)

[DUcK]

18th July 2008, 05:19

well 2.06.30 on AS3 RB4 I let a message at the end of the replay.
Very friendly message at the end there, Wormyboy:thumb:

Richo I agree with your post totally - even better, it's funny! Extra post points :D

Fat-Alfie

18th July 2008, 05:34

I use a button for my clutch on my gamepad, so I can engage 1st gear at the start

Glenn67

18th July 2008, 05:51

Pushing button A should =Button A, not Button A= Button A+invert+reinvert+milk the cows+polish my shoes+release clutch

So if you make a macro to change the brake bias up or down on the cars that allow it, is that a cheat?

lEl E Talon

18th July 2008, 05:55

ahhhhh bugga. i just about broke my foot last night trying to change gears as quick as this guy racing in a fbmw/blackwood server last night. didn't even think there were hacks in LFS.
if it's not in the game and u add this on to go quicker, obviously its a freeekan cheat!

[DUcK]

18th July 2008, 06:00

So if you make a macro to change the brake bias up or down on the cars that allow it, is that a cheat?
Well no, but why would you bother? you can just press f11 then use left or right arrows, I can't see a point in making one unless there's a corner right after another that you need more rear brake bias or something.. anyway, it won't really change your performance, and it's still doing it half manually, since you'd have to press a button to get it to change the bias.

Glenn67

18th July 2008, 06:10

;868050']it won't really change your performance, and it's still doing it half manually, since you'd have to press a button to get it to change the bias.

It has the potential to change a race as someone can press 1 button for changing the bias a set amount so there is less likely hood of him making an error over someone esle doing several clicks.

My point again is the macro doesn't give the super fast gear change the button rate option in LFS does...

[DUcK]

18th July 2008, 06:37

True. Get rid of the button rate then?
Then again the people who are desperate will still find a way to make it fast :p
I admit back in patch X I think? I used the button clutch to nail a few of those XFG WR's I had - but that's because everyone was using it back in the day - it was an option in LFS. It's different though, to a macro, because you actually have to press the button at the same time as you click up a gear. It wasn't such a huge advantage either back then, up the whole blackwood straight it would maybe make 0.0x difference. For me it was only a difference between getting 33.0s and 32.9s. The way the clutch works now though, the macro (or even button for that matter) is much faster, probably due to the fast button rate I suppose :shrug:

Glenn67

18th July 2008, 06:53

;868055']True. Get rid of the button rate then?

No keyboard and mouse uses will still need it, just limit its range of speed, if that is too much a disadvantage for keyboard steering then have it so the clutch button control rate is fixed while steering, brake and throttle are adjustable.

It want stop people from cheating like wheelforhammer already mentioned but it will at least plug up this hole. Currently it is not good because if anyone uses manual clutch (G25 users) they will be under constant suspision of using a macro to gain advantage.

[DUcK]

18th July 2008, 06:58

Yeah I guess.
As for knowing about pedal clutch, it wouldn't be too hard to tell. Most people would be RF braking, if not they will rev match and put it in gear, and wont be using a clutch on downshift. :)

Bladerunner

18th July 2008, 07:38

Heres a question for you all:
Do you consider using Vicks Nasal Spray to unblock your nose if you want to go to work/school if you have a head cold? Do you consider using this third party "add-on" as a cheat?

No?

Well, try running a competitive sports event after using it and then see if you pass a doping test!
Point? It should only be considered cheating if it gives an unfair advantage, which the clutch macro DOES!

PS... Dwain Chambers FTL!

Nadeo4441

18th July 2008, 07:45

I think its a cheat. It switches gears faster than a human. What else?

Drunken Predator

18th July 2008, 08:12

Yep. cheat it is.

migf1

18th July 2008, 08:16

;868060']Yeah I guess.
As for knowing about pedal clutch, it wouldn't be too hard to tell. Most people would be RF braking, if not they will rev match and put it in gear, and wont be using a clutch on downshift. :)
If I'm not mistaken (please correct me if I am), as far as the LFSW charts are concerned, people using pedal clutch have the CL flag on.

EDIT: Cheat or exploit doesn't matter the naming, the essence is it gives an unfair advantage.

[DUcK]

18th July 2008, 09:05

If I'm not mistaken (please correct me if I am), as far as the LFSW charts are concerned, people using pedal clutch have the CL flag on.
Yeah mate you're right. I meant for online as well :) But yes, there is a flag for manual shifter and clutch pedal :D

Glenn67

18th July 2008, 09:33

Point? It should only be considered cheating if it gives an unfair advantage, which the clutch macro DOES!

Yes but it's all a matter of perspective isn't it, if you have a clutch and H pattern setup and are using a realistic amount of wheel rotation/ffb while running in the road cars, and those that you are racing with are using autoclutch, sequential shifting and very low wheel rotation/ffb then you could be forgiven for thinking they have an unfair advantage. So by that rule they are cheating :p

I think there is a vast difference between calling someone a cheat and something an expliot. In the first case your making a judgement on someone's character in the second case your highlighting a flaw in the game that some people take advantage of. And along that line there are many flaws in the game some of which are socially acceptable to take advantage of and others that are not.

PiPiNeRo

18th July 2008, 09:43

Scawen is and that has to put remedy to this script .
Sorry for my english :shrug:

[RF]-art555

18th July 2008, 09:45

Currently it is not good because if anyone uses manual clutch (G25 users) they will be under constant suspision of using a macro to gain advantage.

;868060']Yeah I guess.
As for knowing about pedal clutch, it wouldn't be too hard to tell. Most people would be RF braking, if not they will rev match and put it in gear, and wont be using a clutch on downshift. :)

Also, for example in HL charts you can see who uses CL (Clutch axis=pedal) and who's not ;)

FlintFredstone

18th July 2008, 10:20

Guys,

To help the argument, im going to practice with fbm tonight with no profiling, i'll update you to how i get on (slower/faster) :)

Simon

Bladerunner

18th July 2008, 10:22

Currently it is not good because if anyone uses manual clutch (G25 users) they will be under constant suspision of using a macro to gain advantage.

Aha,,,problem there Glenn...If anybody can write a Logitech macro for me that allows me to use my G25 clutch pedal and change gear with my H-shifter in less than 0.1 seconds, with 100% accuracy (no missed gears!) I will be VERY HAPPY!!!
Unfortunately, this would also involve some sort of hardware link with my brain, central nervous system and muscles; not to mention some implants to increase the efficiency of my hand movements.
As I can't seem to find this sort of stuff on e-bay or e-buyer, I will just have to assume that those using clutch PLUS shifter are not getting an advantage, although JUST using a clutch may be...although most people can press a button with their thumb a lot faster than they can press a pedal with their foot,