Ballast

[Breizh]

There's already a few topics on this, but I thought I'd make one in the GD to guarantee the devs see it.
Because as far as I can tell, it's a really simple addition that everyone could use right now as a stopgap till the cars are fine tuned, which isn't happening tomorrow.

It would be appliable to either specific cars, or specific drivers, to serve both car class handicap, and league/alien purposes.

[RichardTowler]

ballast is one of the most stupid ideas in motorsport, why the hell would you want it in a sim :)

/me adds ballast to kidcodea

[Blackout]

What is this "ballast"?

[KiDCoDEa]

stupid or not it should be added sooner or later for the exact reason it exists in real life in some series.
therefore as option for any host, and as fixed for series that use it irl.

u can use girls on backseat as ballast also but i would give them a different use.

[mrbogeyman]

stupid or not it should be added sooner or later for the exact reason it exists in real life in some series.
therefore as option for any host, and as fixed for series that use it irl.


i agree.

although it might seem nicer to have more balanced cars, that isnt really realistic. ballast would be able to balance the cars, and also balance out different racers in a tournament to maybe mix it up a bit.

btcc use ballast, but im not sure what the rules are as to how it is applied and how much is used.

im sure it is a future feature that the devs have considered anyway.

[Blackout]

Oh, you mean weight penalties :D What a weird name for that... It could be added because its used in real life, just like Kid said

[Breizh]

You would want it because there's a demand for it.
It would already be useful in more than a few circumstances, and definitely by more than a few players. Probably by some leagues, to some extent.

It would be an option, and you wouldn't be affected by it if you didn't want to be.

[martine_wedlake]

I'm trying to remember, but doesn't some of the GT series (Aussie super cars maybe?) use ballast to even up the field after each race? It does mix things up a bit and encourage more passing, etc.

How about a server setting to add ballast to the winner? This might work really well for sequences of short races where everyone restarts after the race. We can even remove added ballast if you start losing...

Alternatively, there could be a server setting to fetch the WR information and do some handicapping on that basis.

[Hankstar]

V8 Supercars is what I think you mean, and they don't use ballast. However, on a day when there are two sprint races, they'll use the reverse grid system - that is, the finishing order of the first race is reversed to make the grid for the second race, IIRC. As you could imagine this makes things very difficult for the faster guys who then have to carve their way through the field for the whole race. Great to watch :nod:

I can't think of a race series down here that uses ballast, but that doesn't mean there isn't one..

[B2B@300]

You can do it now, have a serries of short races (5 laps), and the winner of each race has to take on a girl :D the first one to get a full load of girls wins the serries :razz: have done it a few times and its a real blast, it is commonly refered to as "a hoe down" around these parts :D

I'm not overly in favour of a ballast system, how would you implement it? I think it would be hard to police and easy to hack :shrug: it would also reduce the efficiency of the ip packet traffic which is one of LFS better points... it's very effiecient net code :thumb:

[Funnybear]

ballast is one of the most stupid ideas in motorsport, why the hell would you want it in a sim :)



Because it simulates real life motorsport . . . . However stupid it may be.

[Tweaker]

u can use girls on backseat as ballast also but i would give them a different use.

Just what I was about to mention :)

I've seen some people use ballast on the LX cars so they have equal weight on the car, but erm.... more of a bad thing than helpful imo. Ballast would only be useful for oval racing imo. :shrug:

[Jakg]

V8 Supercars is what I think you mean, and they don't use ballast. However, on a day when there are two sprint races, they'll use the reverse grid system - that is, the finishing order of the first race is reversed to make the grid for the second race, IIRC. As you could imagine this makes things very difficult for the faster guys who then have to carve their way through the field for the whole race. Great to watch :nod:

I can't think of a race series down here that uses ballast, but that doesn't mean there isn't one..btcc...

[Hoellsen]

Touring car series use it widely. WTCC, BTCC, DTM (okay, DTM is a prototype series, but they call it touring ;)). FIA GT also uses it.

Using the passengers is a bit much of ballast, they weigh what? 75 or 80kg? Depending on the series, 100kg is the max, in DTM it is even less (20kg). Besides, how do you put a passenger in a GTR car? ;)

[B2B@300]

But want it just encourage people not to post there best times and always hold something in reserve :shrug: I suspect that there is a number that already do that as they are waiting for the next major physics update before they go all out anyway :x

That could create some more interesting races though :D a guy who is actually faster doesn't try so hard in hotlaps and qual and therefore starts back in the grid slightly with no ballast or little :p and a guys that goes all out in qual get to cary 50kg of ballast and is on the front couple of rows :) well you get the idea :D will create some good action to watch as the guy back in the field comes through ...

[Hankstar]

btcc...

<-- BTCC aint down here mate :smileypul

[Breizh]

It would be a serverside option, the same as if the server could restrict or impose tire choices for specific cars or players, the same as servers decide which cars are enabled or not.
Passengers as ballast depend on how many seats each car has, and affect the center of gravity.
I can't see it being hacked anymore than you can hack R1s for cars that don't have them now.

Sandbagging is a valid tactic and isn't a result of ballast. An independent and cumulative ballast for wins during a series of races fixes someone running away with wins.

A coefficient for the dry weight of the cars would work.

[Sapient]

Most series use ballast in one way or another, even if its not regulated by the series officials. One of the reasons race team work to lower the car weight is so they can get the car under the minimum weight allowance for the category they race in, and then add ballast wherever they need it to better balance the car.

F1 has been doing this for years, and use incredibly heavy (read expensive) metals so they can locate the ballast with absolute precision.

Regardless, for what its worth, I dont think it has a place in LFS. Adding "success ballast" to guys who win alot just makes them more strategic in which races they want to win and which they dont. I dont beleive it lets others win, cause as they say, the cream always rises to the top. :smileypul

[Hankstar]

... the cream always rises to the top ...

So does the scum :D

j/k ;)

[Breizh]

Sapient, so because you wouldn't use it, others can't have it?

[nikimere]

Regardless, for what its worth, I dont think it has a place in LFS. Adding "success ballast" to guys who win alot just makes them more strategic in which races they want to win and which they dont. I dont beleive it lets others win, cause as they say, the cream always rises to the top. :smileypul
i dont think you get the point. people are looking for ballast that can be used in leagues. if you have 10 races in the league you cant chose which races u "want" to win.
its not suitable for daily online races but it would work well in leagues imo.

[Breizh]

It seems there's no reason not to have ballast, yet.

Players who don't want it wouldn't use it. Admins who don't want to see their public servers empty would not force ballast anymore than we now see them banning players without reason. League rules would only include ballast if enough of the participants agreed to the way it was used.

It would be good to have a column with +(mass) in the post race and qualifying results board.

[Sapient]

i dont think you get the point. people are looking for ballast that can be used in leagues. if you have 10 races in the league you cant chose which races u "want" to win.
its not suitable for daily online races but it would work well in leagues imo.


My point is simple, ballast is a rather complicated means of evening up the field. From the limited league racing I have done, different classes seem to do an adequate job of it.
Besides, do we really need to artificially adjust the racing?

[NotAnIllusion]

My point is simple, ballast is a rather complicated means of evening up the field. From the limited league racing I have done, different classes seem to do an adequate job of it.
Besides, do we really need to artificially adjust the racing?
Probably, in RL racing the field is a lot more even to begin with, everyone is a professional and still they use ballast. LFS leagues are more divided in terms of skills and speed even though being much more equal than in daily public server races. If any artificial adjusting is going to be used, wouldn't it be better if it once and for all was properly implemented using a complicated means rather than using a half-hearted solution?

[Vykos69]

Ballast in touring car racing series is used to even out the different car types... so in LFS, if a FZR wins in a series, the whole FZR would need ballast, not only the driver, cause else it would be a penalty for his skill, not the too fast car.

[Breizh]

The different classes need some fine-tuning, there's no doubt about that.
E.g. the FXR could probably get some quicker boost. The devs will get to that, but it's going to take more than a short while to get it done.
If you meant that ballast was not a good solution to get two classes or more on the same level, e.g. the LRF down to the same laptimes as the TBO class, we're not talking about the same thing. That wouldn't work.

What does work is adding weight when the difference in laptimes between two or more cars or drivers is within a certain range, such that adding ballast would equalize the laptimes over the length of a given race, without excessively affecting anything else, such as tire wear.

The ultimate result we're looking for is equalizing racetimes, or not, which would be up to the server admins, or individual players for their own car.
Besides, do we really need to artificially adjust the racing?
What's natural about the present arrangement?
Like I said, Sapient, it seems to me you want to restrict others from a certain choice that wouldn't affect you either way.

The two leagues I'm running in have a bell curve distribution of laptimes.
In one league, I'm running at the front, and would gladly take enough ballast to be fighting on equal terms with the other players, and in the other, there's one consistently faster guy, me a bit slower, then pretty much everyone else at more or less the same speed.

In both cases some ballast would almost perfectly even the field.
Were it not a viable solution, we wouldn't use it, just as allowing the LX4 with the rest of the TBO class on certain tracks isn't always a viable solution to the "problem" of setting up a fair racing season.


Like Vykos noted, the ballast could be set in a batch, for a whole set of drivers, such as all FZRs, or for certain drivers only, such as all FZRs but a newbie player.
Since it's possible to sandbag a qualifying-time ballast, cumulative ballast for wins is the best simple solution.
IMO, the race organizers should know the drivers well enough to decide the precisely just amount of ballast for each driver.

[nikimere]

Ballast in touring car racing series is used to even out the different car types... so in LFS, if a FZR wins in a series, the whole FZR would need ballast, not only the driver, cause else it would be a penalty for his skill, not the too fast car.
yes vykos but it IS also used IRL as a penalty for drivers. Some series add for example 20kg to the driver who wins, 15 to second, 10 to third etc... it is an effective way of keeping the racing close and enjoyable for the spectators.
To be honest i wouldn't mind being penalised with a weight penalty for winning, it would make the races more interesting :)

[Vykos69]

yes vykos but it IS also used IRL as a penalty for drivers. Some series add for example 20kg to the driver who wins, 15 to second, 10 to third etc... it is an effective way of keeping the racing close and enjoyable for the spectators.
To be honest i wouldn't mind being penalised with a weight penalty for winning, it would make the races more interesting :)
OK, I dont like it, but if it's used that way IRL too, then we need it in LFS.

[Richard Torp]

yes vykos but it IS also used IRL as a penalty for drivers. Some series add for example 20kg to the driver who wins, 15 to second, 10 to third etc... it is an effective way of keeping the racing close and enjoyable for the spectators.
To be honest i wouldn't mind being penalised with a weight penalty for winning, it would make the races more interesting :)

It`s used in DTC (Danish Touringcar Championship) with big succes...:thumb:

http://www.dtc-net.dk/default.asp?id=2827 (no need for you to read it..:D )

The winner of a Pre-Finale or a Finale will get 25 extra kilos, if he wins both he must carry 50 kg succes ballast for the next race. #2 will get 20 kilos, #3 15 kilos and #4 10 kilos. You must drive with these extra kilos for the next race and then you are starting all over again..

BTW. Niki...why did you choose the avatar with me on? You promised me to keep the picture in your private album..:smileypul :D

[J_Matrix]

As I'm saying in the "improvement suggestions forum" relative topic, i'd rather see the option added for use in leagues and such. During leagues the admin just looks to previous race results and applies weights as decided before starting the league. Simple, no compliants, discussions or what.
The main problem comes once you have to add it or to make a system to level people on public servers. That would be tricky, because that won't be as good as the purpose. It would help maybe in leveling noobs vs faster players on the same server, but how tune the weights? Maybe if a player gets more consecutive wins he can get some penalty, but then who forces that pilot to leave the server and enter another to avoid penalties?
I still think that something in this way can be done, but as i mean the system should help only in league racing.
Otherwise my fear is that you'll see popping up GTR servers with automatic weight penalties for FZRs only decided by the admin only.. and that's not the purpose we want from it.

[Breizh]

I think it's common sense that public servers hosting pick up races wouldn't use it without consent of the players.
They wouldn't get any traffic if they did.