Round 5: Race Report & Penalties [Archive]

DeadWolfBones

28th June 2008, 19:17

A clean start with some single-car incidents in the opening laps.

#36 unfortunately had a disconnect in the early going.

Penalties:
Leading #19 car spun in final corner after a puncture and then reversed into the racing line, taking out 2nd place #01 CoRe Racing. SG penalty for #19 for unsafe track re-entry.
#01 cut the chicane, lost control, and slid into the #06 car, who was at least one lap ahead at the time. SG penalty for #01.
#14 hits #22 twice on lap 2, leading to an incident. SG for #14.

BEERcobra

28th June 2008, 19:24

Lap 16.3

02 S.Duff on the inside of 09 M.Plsko and 09 cut into (cutoff) 02 causing 02 to spin.

09 iracing 4x lol couldnt resist

bdshan

28th June 2008, 19:26

What about the chats during qualifying? I can't give examples as I did not note them dow nmyself.

DeadWolfBones

28th June 2008, 19:29

There was one chat that I saw in qualifying, from a driver who had run out of fuel asking what to do. This is acceptable.

DeadWolfBones

28th June 2008, 19:30

Lap 16.3

02 S.Duff on the inside of 09 M.Plsko and 09 cut into (cutoff) 02 causing 02 to spin.

All four marshals were watching this as it happened. The 09 was ahead by half a car length and held his outside line. The 02 pushed up into his side and spun. Racing incident, no penalty.

bdshan

28th June 2008, 19:37

:thumbsup:

There was one chat that I saw in qualifying, from a driver who had run out of fuel asking what to do. This is acceptable.

R.Kolz

28th June 2008, 20:03

Can sb. please send me ( PM ) the link for the IGTC tracker. Thanks.

srdsprinter

28th June 2008, 20:14

Starblue

28th June 2008, 20:16

Can sb. please send me ( PM ) the link for the IGTC tracker. Thanks.
Sent :)

Starblue

DeadWolfBones

28th June 2008, 20:19

IN regards to the 09, 02 lap 16 incident. This is a picture of the point of contact.

Please note:
- the 09 had dirt on his tires from a previous off.
- I'm significantly alongside.
- The 09 is hardly giving room, let alone on the outside.

09 Should have yielded the line, and gave No room. How is this me sliding into him?

You are significantly alongside, but #09 is ahead. He left you just enough room on the inside to get through cleanly. Perhaps pinching a little, but just racing hard. You have half a car width to the inside that you could be using. This is most certainly a racing incident.

The Moose

28th June 2008, 20:19

Sent :)

Starblue

Beat you :razz:

DeadWolfBones

28th June 2008, 20:22

Drivers, there is an issue with the tracker. The auto-penalty escalation is supposed to give you 10 minutes to complete a penalty, but due to a programming error only gives you 1 minute. Therefore, we have to cancel all penalties and then direct you as to when to serve it. For this reason, we ask that you please do not block messages.

Thanks!

srdsprinter

28th June 2008, 20:22

You are significantly alongside, but #09 is ahead. He left you just enough room on the inside to get through cleanly. Perhaps pinching a little, but just racing hard.
Perhaps Pinching A little bit???

Perhaps racing Just a Little Too Hard at the begining of a FOUR HOUR race??

Look at the apex cone and the angle of his car. He is coming down regardless of anything inside him.

EDIT - Look again at the apex cone, if i'd been on the grass there already there'd be No Way to make the turn.

DeadWolfBones

28th June 2008, 20:28

Perhaps racing Just a Little Too Hard at the begining of a FOUR HOUR race??

This cuts both ways, Stu.

Argument over, it's a racing incident.

Megin

28th June 2008, 20:28

IN regards to the 09, 02 lap 16 incident. My point of view:

After surviving side to side ride in chicane before I was happy even I must go outside on the grass. Next 2 cars were going before me and there were 3 cars in next chicane with our incident. Therefore I drive there carefully and let him space. If u believe in your speed why u don't try attack me in some next corners or straights? This is endurance race I think. :scratchch

Edit: sorry i need for writing more time, Ii agree - discussion over

srdsprinter

28th June 2008, 20:32

This is endurance race I think. :scratchch
Again, how bout you use this same logic and not clip someone along side of you. :shrug:

This cuts both ways, Stu.

Argument over, it's a racing incident.
You're right Ben, when I've got the inside with overlap, I'll remember, "Hey, it's early, the most basic of racing rules don't apply"

Fair enough, we'll remember how to race correctly, regardless of everyone else on the track.

Edit. The 02 does everything it can to race cleanly and fairly in this incident. The 09 does nothing to avoid contact.

Bessa74

28th June 2008, 21:16

Can somebody off the admins. send me a PM whit the link to the tracker :scratchch

Starblue

28th June 2008, 21:18

Can somebody off the admins. send me a PM whit the link to the tracker :scratchch
Done :)

Starblue

Bean0

28th June 2008, 21:26

Starblue

28th June 2008, 21:32

Team #12 reported they are missing 1 lap on the tracker as they were temporarily DSQ due to a problem with penalties.
Their laps will be recounted at the end of the race to get correct results.

Locovich

28th June 2008, 21:38

r4ptor

28th June 2008, 21:53

We feel this should be looked into...

Lap 90 or 91...about 2hrs 26.
Fast chicane half way round lap
#1 and #6 involved

#1 makes over aggressive and careless pass to unlap themselves, doesn't make corbner and collects #6 in their crash.

SG penalty given to #1, for initiating a very risky passing maneuver halfway through the chicane, by cutting the chicane exit, but then lost control and slided into #6.

Lotesdelere

28th June 2008, 22:00

And thanks to #1 for blocking our car #15 for THREE laps while being under blue flag and FOUR laps down...

DeadWolfBones

28th June 2008, 22:03

I really hate to do this, i appreciate a lot My3ID drivers and i think they ´re very PRO, but i believe that what is fair is fair for everyone, PRO or Amateurs.
Lap 2, main straight, #14 starts overtaking action but doesnt take enough distance and hit #22. A few metres more, in T1 tries to get the inside (where theres no room, that´s not a hairpin, is a full throttle 240 km/h turn!), he hits again #22 car sending it to the grass where is difficult to stop the car, and hits again #14.
Stills remain 3h 50m, but we are almost out of the race...:(

#14 tries to make a crossover pass into T1 and misjudges, hitting #22 and sending him off-track. #22 recovers and is heading into T2 when #14 (apparently not seeing him) chops across his nose and takes him out again. SG for #14 for unnecessary contact leading to an incident.

DeadWolfBones

28th June 2008, 22:05

And thanks to #1 for blocking our car #15 for THREE laps while being under blue flag and FOUR laps down...

I've warned #01.

BinBalde

28th June 2008, 22:09

Can sb. please send me ( PM ) the link for the IGTC tracker. Thanks.

Please :nod:

Starblue

28th June 2008, 22:13

Please :nod:
Tracker link sent :)

Starblue

Lotesdelere

28th June 2008, 22:40

After our car #15 timed out the tracker is now saying that we are 3 laps down ? How come ?
I believe we haven't lost more than 1 lap in this incident.

Starblue

28th June 2008, 22:49

After our car #15 timed out the tracker is now saying that we are 3 laps down ? How come ?
I believe we haven't lost more than 1 lap in this incident.
I'll look into it after the race; we will run the replay on the tracker and we will recount all teams laps as we have to recount Team #12 anyway :)

Starblue

Dragonmen

28th June 2008, 22:59

Some drivers should really think about blue flag rule, and admins should really try to force this because to some drivers blue flag it seems doesn't mean anything!

I watched race for last 15mins and what I saw was awful!

I'm sure we will have some complains and for the start I really would like admins to take a look at #10 driving in last 7mins of the race. It cost us 1 position. Really awful driving under blue flag there!

DeadWolfBones

28th June 2008, 23:15

Thanks everyone for putting up with the tracker/penalty issues during the race today. We had a few snafus that will be worked out for Round 6.

The lapcounts for #12 and #15 will also be re-examined as we run the race replay through the tracker tonight or tomorrow.

BigTime

28th June 2008, 23:19

SG penalty given to #1, for initiating a very risky passing maneuver halfway through the chicane, by cutting the chicane exit, but then lost control and slided into #6.

Yeah, that was my mistake. My tires where running really good at the time (R4's) and I didn't expect the speed differential going into the corner... I should have just locked them up and grazed the tires but I chose to go for the swerve. After going through the grass I tried to drift the car to stay as far over to left as possible... It missed working by about 2 feet, sorry I messed up your race guys.

The Moose

28th June 2008, 23:38

You were obviously way quicker so i thought you would wait to overtake our driver after the chicane on the straight. A bit impatient i feel (like a few guys that were unlapping themselves around us in that stint) but no worries.

Thanks for the apology :)

Damn fun race though:thumb: Another case of "What could have been" for CR. We enjoyed it all immensely though.

Never have i pushed so hard as i did in my final stint. I was sure my tires were going to pop in those last two laps. I was running on less rubber than Lewis Hamilton did in China (?) :D

eraser_svk

28th June 2008, 23:57

I'm sure we will have some complains and for the start I really would like admins to take a look at #10 driving in last 7mins of the race. It cost us 1 position. Really awful driving under blue flag there!

Could you be more concrete please ?

I apologize if I damaged you. I was trying to let pass the driver behind me when the blue flag appeared - but when the driver was not able to overtake me and it cost me too much time, I had to step on the gas.

I know that this is annoying, I also met some blueflagged driver overtaking me and slowing me down a lot, but complain about it ;)

BigTime

29th June 2008, 00:10

And thanks to #1 for blocking our car #15 for THREE laps while being under blue flag and FOUR laps down...

106 - We where both passing cars on the lap and the driver never got close enough to draft me.

107 - After loosing a little bit of time at the end of 106 you driver catches me. However, I am in the middle of trying to get around a damaged car.

108 - Still fighting to get around the presumed damaged car. At the end of the lap your driver pit.

Did you expect a car of equal pace to just pull over and let you by? If thats the case you probably would have wanted the car that I was fighting (the 38) to pull over as well.

I mean if your driver would have been noticeable faster than me I would have let him by, but the only place he even apeared to want to make a pass was in the downhill left hander on his pit in lap... He didnt really push the subject so to be honest with you I thought he was just sloting into the line untill we got around the damaged car. Ether way I was fighting for laps and we were pacing at almost the same times.

Mysho

29th June 2008, 00:23

106 - We where both passing cars on the lap and the driver never got close enough to draft me.

107 - After loosing a little bit of time at the end of 106 you driver catches me. However, I am in the middle of trying to get around a damaged car.

108 - Still fighting to get around the presumed damaged car. At the end of the lap your driver pit.

Did you expect a car of equal pace to just pull over and let you by? If thats the case you probably would have wanted the car that I was fighting (the 38) to pull over as well.

I mean if your driver would have been noticeable faster than me I would have let him by, but the only place he even apeared to want to make a pass was in the downhill left hander on his pit in lap... He didnt really push the subject so to be honest with you I thought he was just sloting into the line untill we got around the damaged car. Ether way I was fighting for laps and we were pacing at almost the same times.

Do you know that magic word downforce? How could i overtake you when always needed to pull down in 200+km/h turn.. Its not my problem that you are racing someone, once the blue flag is shown you HAD to let me pass.
Anyway i twice slowed down, because your ignorancy could affect our race, but this is definately not the right way...
Then i pitted just because you were slowing me down so much. I showed you my nose, my lights, everything, you were still not easy to let me pass - so pits for me.

Who Cares

29th June 2008, 01:28

BigTime

29th June 2008, 02:43

Do you know that magic word downforce? How could i overtake you when always needed to pull down in 200+km/h turn.. Its not my problem that you are racing someone, once the blue flag is shown you HAD to let me pass.
Anyway i twice slowed down, because your ignorancy could affect our race, but this is definately not the right way...
Then i pitted just because you were slowing me down so much. I showed you my nose, my lights, everything, you were still not easy to let me pass - so pits for me.

Not until your final lap of the stint (the 3rd lap, final sector of the laps in question) did you even try to make a pass. If you actually watch the replay you'll find you didn't even draft me down the straight so I was wondering, have you ever heard of that magic word downforce?

I just watched the replay yet again and I saw no flashing at all on lap 108, the only lap in which you drew close enough to pass. Also you might want to notice the distance between me and the damaged car... Much closer than you where to me. Also keep in mind there is a big difference in blocking and holding pace so please, get your terminology right.

The simple fact of the matter is, when you pull along side or even make a half way decent run on me, you can have the spot, as a matter of fact I'll hand it to you on silver platter. However you never made this attempt and as I already said in the past post, I thought you where slotting in line so we could overtake the car ahead. I really thought you would understand the situation I was in, being a points contender, but I guess not.

Lastly you might want to ask the 06 and the 14 how much room I gave them when they passed me...

BigTime

29th June 2008, 03:37

I would like to recommend a change in the following rule...

K. SAFETY CAR / FULL-COURSE YELLOW CONDUCT
1.2) If a car is stuck in the gravel or is out of fuel when the SC is deployed, the stranded driver must wait to be pushed out of the gravel or back to the pits by the push car. This car must then drive to the pits, where it will be held for 5 minutes by the marshals. Drivers returning to the pits under their own power following such an incident must drive within the limits of the damage to their car.

This rule is not fair. The reason is simple, only 1 of the 3 cars can actually get stuck in the sand, the XRR. This gives the other cars an unfair advantage. The rule it self seems a bit extreme to me regardless of which simply due to the fact that in most circumstances a beached car will loose a minimum of one lap, so there is no need for further punishment. Today we were beached just after sector 1, and we still lost a lap before the penalty. Basically we went from a top 3 car to 4 laps down due to a rule that in my opinion, should have never been created to begin with.

rcpilot

29th June 2008, 06:41

This is pretty ridiculous. 2nd time this season I've been knocked off track into the kitty litter by someone I wasn't racing against. This time it took ~2 minutes for the push car to even start responding + the associated penalties. Our race completely destroyed because I happened to be in position to get knocked off track by a car snap spinning across the road. The other two cars can just drive out of the gravel but instead we get to lose mondo time (or in this case a lap) waiting for the push car and then get a penalty on top of that? It doesn't seem fair at all to have an uberharsh penalty that can only be applied to one car, besides not having considerations in the rule for why you ended up in that gravel trap in the first place.

Megin

29th June 2008, 06:48

This race was good for us - till half time. Then everything goes worse. I will wait for final result because that counting was weird. :shrug:

I hope next time we will show better performance. :really:

Mysho

29th June 2008, 07:04

Not until your final lap of the stint (the 3rd lap, final sector of the laps in question) did you even try to make a pass. If you actually watch the replay you'll find you didn't even draft me down the straight so I was wondering, have you ever heard of that magic word downforce?

I just watched the replay yet again and I saw no flashing at all on lap 108, the only lap in which you drew close enough to pass. Also you might want to notice the distance between me and the damaged car... Much closer than you where to me. Also keep in mind there is a big difference in blocking and holding pace so please, get your terminology right.

The simple fact of the matter is, when you pull along side or even make a half way decent run on me, you can have the spot, as a matter of fact I'll hand it to you on silver platter. However you never made this attempt and as I already said in the past post, I thought you where slotting in line so we could overtake the car ahead. I really thought you would understand the situation I was in, being a points contender, but I guess not.

Lastly you might want to ask the 06 and the 14 how much room I gave them when they passed me...

Well, i am not allowed to race with you, your obligation is to let me pass easily and this just hasn't been done. If you think i didn't have enough speed, how the hell could i got to your ass as near as i was.
My times were as fast as yours because i really felt i am trapped behind you. (Laps before were definately faster :) )
In pit lap you really had to let me pass, i don't know how much other indications/demonstrations you want.
I have different braking points from you, so believe, you slowed me down a lot.
Anyway, i am not angry, i am not annoyed, just writting my point of view. So maybe next race not blue flag lapping fighting with you, but regural fight for a pos. :thumb:

R.Kolz

29th June 2008, 10:02

Has anybody already uploaded a full replay somewhere ?

BinBalde

29th June 2008, 10:18

I just wanna thank the good Daniel Palma in number 22, for runnig directly into me, when I under blue flag --> pulled all out to the righthand side and even lifted the gas to let him by... on the backstraight for the final corner...
This nice "thank you mate" move happened on his 64'th lap... Great work Daniel... :thumb:

Wasnt like that in my computer, in fact i said to my partner what was hapening by TS (team speak), and he said thet u maybe pop a tire. As u can see in the screenshots that i let u there the touch were product of lag.
I feel sorry by that.

Franke

29th June 2008, 10:28

2nd time this season I've been knocked off track into the kitty litter by someone I wasn't racing against.

I am sad to say, that it was me that took you out, on that one, for that i am really sorry, i felt bad straight away, but i must say that i was very aware where you were, and i was aware where to let you pass, so i was going at my own pace, but in the lefthander right after split 1, someone, don't have the replay to confirm who, was driving very slowly in that corner, and comming around that corner doing 220 kmh i tried to steer clear of him, only to put one set of wheels on the grass, thinking, this will end bad, and it did, i lost control having one set of wheels on the grass, sliding across the track, thinking, i hope he is braking, turn around facing the oncomming traffic and saw that i hit you...

But sorry i spoiled you race, but there was nothing i could do, at that point i was NOT in control of my car, and i knew you were comming, only hoping that you would see, i was out of control, and avoid me... Sadly you did not succed in avoiding me :(

Regards
Franke... Click

fadeaway

29th June 2008, 10:50

rcpilot

29th June 2008, 11:01

I am sad to say, that it was me that took you out, on that one, for that i am really sorry, i felt bad straight away, but i must say that i was very aware where you were, and i was aware where to let you pass, so i was going at my own pace, but in the lefthander right after split 1, someone, don't have the replay to confirm who, was driving very slowly in that corner, and comming around that corner doing 220 kmh i tried to steer clear of him, only to put one set of wheels on the grass, thinking, this will end bad, and it did, i lost control having one set of wheels on the grass, sliding across the track, thinking, i hope he is braking, turn around facing the oncomming traffic and saw that i hit you...

But sorry i spoiled you race, but there was nothing i could do, at that point i was NOT in control of my car, and i knew you were comming, only hoping that you would see, i was out of control, and avoid me... Sadly you did not succed in avoiding me :(

Regards
Franke... Click
I know, can't blame someone for happening to spin into me. But at that point I was yelling something along the lines of 'why me' with profanity for added flavor. :x

Who Cares

29th June 2008, 12:00

Wasnt like that in my computer, in fact i said to my partner what was hapening by TS (team speak), and he said thet u maybe pop a tire. As u can see in the screenshots that i let u there the touch were product of lag.
I feel sorry by that.

Point taken mate, and no excuses needed... clearly a lag issue then... so no worries... :)

nmanley

29th June 2008, 13:18

DeadWolfBones

29th June 2008, 14:29

Has anybody already uploaded a full replay somewhere ?

Hi Rudi,

The replay is here: http://www.mediafire.com/?ydu79gmmkjn

BigTime

29th June 2008, 14:46

Well, i am not allowed to race with you, your obligation is to let me pass easily and this just hasn't been done. If you think i didn't have enough speed, how the hell could i got to your ass as near as i was.
My times were as fast as yours because i really felt i am trapped behind you.

This was explained in the first post, maybe you should go back and read it or you can watch the replay... Look for the #10 car.

Anyway, i am not angry, i am not annoyed, just writting my point of view. So maybe next race not blue flag lapping fighting with you, but regural fight for a pos. :thumb:

If you would have said it like this the first time you would have gotten a different response. And yeah, I hope next round we're on the lead lap too because that was two boring stints... :D

Point taken mate, and no excuses needed... clearly a lag issue then... so no worries...

I have to say that is one of the strangest lag incidents I've seen.

This is pretty ridiculous. 2nd time this season I've been knocked off track into the kitty litter by someone I wasn't racing against. This time it took ~2 minutes for the push car to even start responding + the associated penalties. Our race completely destroyed because I happened to be in position to get knocked off track by a car snap spinning across the road. The other two cars can just drive out of the gravel but instead we get to lose mondo time (or in this case a lap) waiting for the push car and then get a penalty on top of that? It doesn't seem fair at all to have an uberharsh penalty that can only be applied to one car, besides not having considerations in the rule for why you ended up in that gravel trap in the first place.

That is the second time that has happened this season to us and why we didn't mention it before (probably because we came back to finish 4th the last time) I don't know. In all honesty I would like to see some kind of compensation, though I know we probably won't, because that rule is borderline communist (joke, but it's close :D) and it's effected this team twice this season.

niall09

29th June 2008, 15:31

I feel your pain. I wonder why in the heck Scawen and crew doesn't find glitches like the XRR sand trap problem and FIX them! I wonder if they even really know about it as on each upgrade everyone seems to bitch about interiors and sounds rather than physics. :shrug:

No, they shouldn't fix this glitch, they should make it so that each GTR gets stuck in the sand - as would happen in real life.

DeadWolfBones

29th June 2008, 15:37

No, they shouldn't fix this glitch, they should make it so that each GTR gets stuck in the sand - as would happen in real life.

Agreed.

Mysho

29th June 2008, 16:06

This was explained in the first post, maybe you should go back and read it or you can watch the replay... Look for the #10 car.

1st picture - downforce i was talking about
2nd picture - so i have chosen more room to not crash because of you
3rd picture - detto
4th picture - had to brake hardly, because again you slowed me down
5th picture - was showing you my nose all straight
6th picture - this is what i got for that, again hardly braking and blocking tyres because of you

Sorry, but i should nothing, i just hope you will be more gentle in the next race.
I will tell you again, blue flag is not about racing a car which is four laps down.

BigTime

29th June 2008, 16:20

1st picture - downforce i was talking about.

That was the first lap in question. After this corner you fell back until the next lap.

2nd picture - so i have chosen more room to not crash because of you. That's more than enough room to leave.
3rd picture - detto
4th picture - had to brake hardly, because again you slowed me down We were both running faster the car ahead of us... As you can see in both pictures, I was closing in and being slowed as well.
5th picture - was showing you my nose all straight. I personally feel that if you would have hit the chicane better you could have drafted me down the straight and made an easy pass. Further more you where on the borderline (I think you had it personally) of being close enough to draft by... This move down the straight made me think you where slotting in line so we could overtake the car ahead, as I've said in 2 other post.
6th picture - this is what i got for that, again hardly braking and blocking tyres because of you. You lost a lot of time with that move (although I don't know how because you came all the way back over to the perfered line) and I overtook the car ahead in the next turn. If you would have stayed on the track one more lap I would have let you by once we overtook the slower car.

I've explained this till I'm blue in the face so this is my last post referring to this incident.

srdsprinter

29th June 2008, 16:25

That is the second time that has happened this season to us and why we didn't mention it before (probably because we came back to finish 4th the last time) I don't know. In all honesty I would like to see some kind of compensation, though I know we probably won't, because that rule is borderline communist (joke, but it's close :D) and it's effected this team twice this season.

There seems to be a disconcerting lack of respect for car-to-car racing in this series (lfs in general actually). 90% of the time there is little to no consequence for banging into another car, and I believe people just don't care because of it.

In its denfense, iRacing's damage model and iRating systems seem to be the biggest pluses for the sim. People have to respect the car's around them in iRacing if they want to finish a race.

You chose the XRR knowing its strengths & weaknesses, and the IGTC rules; although, you might have underestimated some of the other teams' proclivity towards disaster (;)). In the FZR/FXR's denfense, the XRR has won a very high % of the races, granted yours is a very good team fielding the car. I wouldn't be opposed to the changing of the pentalty if the option to re-evaluate each of the teams' cars was given.

So +1 for reducing/changing the sand-trap pentalty rule.:thumbsup:

nmanley

29th June 2008, 16:25

No, they shouldn't fix this glitch, they should make it so that each GTR gets stuck in the sand - as would happen in real life.

There people go again....thinking REAL life. Get a sponsor and go racing REAL life. I just want to have FUN on my COMPUTER! :razz:

Mysho

29th June 2008, 16:45

I've explained this till I'm blue in the face so this is my last post referring to this incident.

Ok, next time i will wait untill you'll pass all the field and then maybe you will make me a little place for overtake.. man! you can't be serious. :shrug:

I personally feel the truth on my side, which screens and replay affirmed to.

Now to finish this disccusion and hope for a clean race for both our teams :D

Cya at Kyoto in a new cockpit for you, XRR guys :thumbsup:

BigTime

29th June 2008, 16:58

You chose the XRR knowing its strengths & weaknesses, and the IGTC rules; although, you might have underestimated some of the other teams' proclivity towards disaster (;)). In the FZR/FXR's denfense, the XRR has won a very high % of the races, granted yours is a very good team fielding the car. I wouldn't be opposed to the changing of the pentalty if the option to re-evaluate each of the teams' cars was given.

Well that's a very good point. I personally feel that the XRR is the best car to stint (though it's not much quicker overall I feel that it stays more consistant over the course of a hour) and that's why I like it. It does lack a little on the hotlap department so in all honesty I would be happy with just 2 poles for the season.

In regards to the penality for the push car, it would be nice if all the GTR cars could get stuck in the sand. I guess interiors are just more important. :really: :D

Edit: After seeing those interiors I have to say, they are really nice.

Now to finish this disccusion and hope for a clean race for both our teams

I really don't want any bad blood between us so next time I'm in that position I will let you by extra early... :thumb: Sorry the inconvenience guys.

R.Kolz

30th June 2008, 00:43

I agree, rule change please.

Just get any XRR out of these sand banks and let him continue his racing.

And get another push car driver, who actually will be able to drive a RB4..

:D

rcpilot

30th June 2008, 10:07

Arg, didn't realize we were held 5 minutes too.

Race 4 pre-race thread:
The penalty for a Push Car rescue will be reduced from 5 minutes to 2.5 minutes. As above, we find 5 minutes to be an exorbitant penalty in practice, since at least a lap is already lost in the process of being rescued, and particularly since only one make of car is susceptible to beaching under normal circumstances.

:-' Was unwinding from the frustration of my stints at the time as Nolan served the penalty.

DeadWolfBones

30th June 2008, 12:15

BigTime

30th June 2008, 13:48

Yikes.

Well, that is definitely true.

Unfortunately, it looks like that promised change never actually made it into the rulebook, though there doesn't seem to be any concrete reason why. I feel really horrible about this.

I think that just giving the #1 car 2.5 minutes back won't work in a situation like this. For one thing, there are too many variables that might have affected how your race would have gone if you'd been held for half the time, and for another, though it was a promised rule change, it wasn't actually a rule at the time of the incident. We have to go by the rulebook.

For reference, giving 2.5 minutes back, according to the tracker, would put the #1 in 11th place.

The rule will definitely be changed for Round 6, and likely be made even more lenient than the round 4 change suggested.

Well anything would certainly help. I personally feel that if the rule is going to be reviewed/changed that we should get back the amount of time we lost in reference to the new rule, if there is a new rule. IE if the new rule is 1 minute, we should get all the time we lost in the pits, minus 1 minute. I personally feel that is the fairest solution since it wasn't actually a rule at the time of the incident.

bdshan

30th June 2008, 14:28

So you want to benefit from a rule that is being changed after the race is over? The results of the race should reflect the rules that were in place at the time the race took place.

Gil07

30th June 2008, 14:29

I have to agree with bdshan here... Despite the fact that it was announced, the rules for this round hadn't yet changed. :shy:

BigTime

30th June 2008, 14:32

So you want to benefit from a rule that is being changed after the race is over? The results of the race should reflect the rules that were in place at the time the race took place.

We discussed it in the round 4 thread so it appears most everyone (well whoever read the thread) knew about it. Maybe your right, maybe we shouldn't get the new rule idea, but I think some kind of compensation should definitely be in question. When an admin says they are going to do something, I typically expect it.

Unfortunately, it looks like that promised change never actually made it into the rulebook, though there doesn't seem to be any concrete reason why. I feel really horrible about this.

If this was the first time this had happened it would be understandable. However it's happened twice to us and there was obviously a mistake in the rules since you had planned on changing it.

DeadWolfBones

30th June 2008, 14:32

So you want to benefit from a rule that is being changed after the race is over? The results of the race should reflect the rules that were in place at the time the race took place.

I think it's a bit unfair and unnecessarily confrontational to characterize his post like that.

The rule was slated to be changed back in May and for whatever reason (admin incompetence?) wasn't. The entire league was told it was going to be changed, and it seems that rcpilot, at least, was paying attention to that announcement.

Now... BigTime might not have been conscious of it at the time of the penalty/the start of the race, and rcpilot might not have noted that the change wasn't included in the revised rules. But the fault here is with the admins, not with BigTime. I think it's pretty natural to want to get time back in a situation like this.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a fair way to go about giving it back.

BigTime

30th June 2008, 14:58

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a fair way to go about giving it back.

I can see that being an issue... Even if you where to give us time back, we where two laps down to the next competitor. :(

One thing you might be able to do is go back and review the replay to see how long we where penalized in the pits. If it's over 2.5 minutes, which it is, then maybe you give us the extra time we lost back? If there is no one close to us on track, there is no reason to take the time to do so. However if there was someone that we would have overtaken, then it's worth the time. Ether way this round had completely disrupted our championship. Even if you give us the time back it's going to be our worse finish in IGTC history and it has really put the pressure on us to finish out the season in style.

AppiePils

30th June 2008, 15:09

I can see that being an issue... Even if you where to give us time back, we where two laps down to the next competitor. :(

One thing you might be able to do is go back and review the replay to see how long we where penalized in the pits. If it's over 2.5 minutes, which it is, then maybe you give us the extra time we lost back?

No serious racing league would do something like that. What happened in the past, happened in the past and is final.

The only way to prevent things from happening again, is to learn from what went wrong (drivers/organization) and make alterations in the rulings/procedures(admin) or driving style/strategy(racing team) - if applicable of course, to prevent the same thing from reoccurring in the upcoming events.

bdshan

30th June 2008, 15:35

Can't really account for all the wudda, cudda, shudda. If you weren't held the extra time, most likely you would have never come into contact with the 06 as an example.

BigTime

30th June 2008, 15:42

No serious racing league would do something like that.

No serious racing league would state they are going to change a rule for the next round and then not do it simply because they forgot... I didn't go into this convo expecting to get any more positions back but comments like this really concern me because, as Ben stated, this was an admin issue. So basically if the admin team makes a mistake it's a wudda, cudda, shudda incident?

May I ask the reason this rule (5 minute penalty) was ever enforced/created in the first place?

Can't really account for all the wudda, cudda, shudda. If you weren't held the extra time, most likely you would have never come into contact with the 06 as an example.

Car contact and admin issues don't even fall into the same realm of penalties. If the admin team makes a mistake I expect them to stand up and do whats fair, not what's the best PR move. After all, you can't penalize an admin as you can a driver...

AppiePils

30th June 2008, 16:19

No serious racing league would state they are going to change a rule for the next round and then not do it simply because they forgot... I didn't go into this convo expecting to get any more positions back but comments like this really concern me because, as Ben stated, this was an admin issue. So basically if the admin team makes a mistake it's a wudda, cudda, shudda incident?

Why keep on asking to get minutes back then if you don't expect to get any positions back? DWB already acknowledged that this rule will be included in the next update path, so if your post is meant to have the rule included in the rules it is utterly late.

As to your final question: Yes. The rulebook version with which the race was started, applies to that race. Improvement points are taken into a new version for the next race.

nmanley

30th June 2008, 16:22

That whole deal sucked for the 01 since they are in the XRR sand trap car and they got a 5 min penalty from the time they entered the pits. The penalty procedure and how it is administered needs to be done in a more structured way.

Example:
The 01 car enters the pit and stops in the pit box. 49 seconds later the pit is completed after damage fixed, tires changed and fuel. Pit notification in drivers view disappear for normal pit release. The 01 sits till given the go signal exactly 4 minutes later.

So the 01 is in the pits a total of 5 min from the Pit Lane Entry. A very long time overall.

I would suggest that what ever penalty given be assessed at the END of the Normal Pit stop and it should be reduced (or none at all) for the XRR if a push car is used. If no push then they get the normal penalty for bringing on a SC period. All other cars that have not had the use of the push car should get a penalty from the time of the pit stop Ending.

This seems confusing but what I'm saying is waiting for the push car is a penalty in itself as the XRR is the only car that will need it.

This post is not meant to criticize but just to add to the think tank. :thumb:

BigTime

30th June 2008, 16:31

Why keep on asking to get minutes back then if you don't expect to get any positions back? DWB already acknowledged that this rule will be included in the next update path, so if your post is meant to have the rule included in the rules it is utterly late.

Expecting and receiving are not the same thing... I didn't expect to get stuck in the sand, but it happened. Also I answered this question 2 post ago...

"If there is no one close to us on track, there is no reason to take the time to do so. However if there was someone that we would have overtaken, then it's worth the time."

And the post clearly states that if we were to have passed another car on track due to admin error that you, the admin, should fix it... PR FTW.

AppiePils

30th June 2008, 16:42

Expecting and receiving are not the same thing... I didn't expect to get stuck in the sand, but it happened. Also I answered this question 2 post ago...

"If there is no one close to us on track, there is no reason to take the time to do so. However if there was someone that we would have overtaken, then it's worth the time."

And the post clearly states that if we were to have passed another car on track due to admin error that you, the admin, should fix it... PR FTW.

Aren't you asking the same question, but are using different words? Here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=847136#post847136) is my reply (and Here is DWB's (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=846891#post846891)).

rcpilot

30th June 2008, 17:20

You've made up for admin mistakes lots of times in the past, and I'd quantify not adding a new rule to the main rule set two rounds later and then failing to apply the new rule a definite admin mistake. And I believe that's what BigTime's going for although in a bit more brash and roundabout way.

But, I'm along the lines of 'how do you make up for this fairly' in regards to this. If we were let out when we were supposed to we would've been let out while the SC queue was still in progress, which introduces far more variables beyond the normal amount of being stopped for 2 1/2 minutes with 2 hours left in a race.

All things considered, I don't think the teams in close competition with us would honestly find it unjust to give us a few points back in regards to this (not saying just slice 2 1/2 minutes off of our time straight up, but adding 3 points or something similar to our haul), but I'm not them so I dunno. But it's also unreasonable to believe that losing 2 1/2 minutes had anything near minimal chances in hurting us. (The woulda coulda shoulda argument.)

And one last thing, push car response time. Made several slight references to it in my original post regarding this, but the time it took for the push car to even start moving was ridiculous and probably needlessly lost us another lap. Not something really covered in the rules but the league needs to get on the ball with these things. I think the push car had just started moving between 1 1/2-2 minutes after I called $SC.

srdsprinter

30th June 2008, 17:39

You've made up for admin mistakes lots of times in the past

The Only example that springs to mind is the the non-escalation of the my3id pentalty after burnsy (?) incorrectly stated he had 3 laps (?) to serve the pentalty. Perhaps you could share the lots of other times?

rcpilot

30th June 2008, 17:57

The Only example that springs to mind is the the non-escalation of the my3id pentalty after burnsy (?) incorrectly stated he had 3 laps (?) to serve the pentalty. Perhaps you could share the lots of other times?
Ok, so I misspoke there believing there were significantly more, but a precedent is still a precedent. (And thanks for replying to one line of a long post like it helps.)

But, a rule is modified after our team gets knocked off the road by non-competition traffic into the kitty litter for being unjust, and the admins make a mistake and don't apply the new rule when the same damn thing happens again 2 races later. How is that just at all? This isn't some slight slap on the wrist, this is a race destroying penalty that shouldn't have been nearly as harsh according to what the rules rightly should have been at the time. (Or exist at all with the way the winds are blowing, but that's a matter for the future.) We're not asking for a grandfathering in under a new rule, we're not asking for a strange rule interpretation, all we're asking is that considerations are made for the fact that we got additionally screwed by poor stewardship on top of all the other poo slung our way Saturday.

DeadWolfBones

30th June 2008, 18:05

And one last thing, push car response time. Made several slight references to it in my original post regarding this, but the time it took for the push car to even start moving was ridiculous and probably needlessly lost us another lap. Not something really covered in the rules but the league needs to get on the ball with these things. I think the push car had just started moving between 1 1/2-2 minutes after I called $SC.

This is something that definitely needs to be addressed.

However, you should note that it is our internal policy not to send the PC out until the SC has collected the field, so that it doesn't get blindly mowed down by a car traveling at full speed.

(I haven't looked at that part of the replay yet to see if this had anything to do with it.)

srdsprinter

30th June 2008, 18:25

(And thanks for replying to one line of a long post like it helps.)

The length of your post does nothing to validate your incorrect claim of the long history of ex post facto reversals. As was similarly correctly pointed out a couple of races ago, this instance was completely different that the my3id team instance.

There is no consistent way to give your team points back that theorhetically you might have received after the race ends. Had there been another SC, allowing you to make up a lap would have been a sound bit of help.

The race was run with the rules as written. The push car was dispensed as soon as logical to do so. Stuff happens.

The admins apologized for forgetting to change the rules, there's not much more that can be done.

bdshan

30th June 2008, 18:25

However, you should note that it is our internal policy not to send the PC out until the SC has collected the field, so that it doesn't get blindly mowed down by a car traveling at full speed.

I don't think I have read this anywhere before. Thanks for the explanation. This additional information, makes the 5 min or 2.5 min SG penalty overly harsh, IMO. May I suggest that a 60 sec SG would suffice. For which on most tracks would mean they would join the end of the car queue before the restart.

BigTime

30th June 2008, 18:28

Aren't you asking the same question, but are using different words? Here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=847136#post847136) is my reply (and Here is DWB's (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=846891#post846891)).

There is no question in that post Appie... I'm sure you've heard of the word convince. I am trying to convince you that your actions in the matter are unjust. You can take that how you want it but the simple fact of the matter is there was a mistake made by you the admins, and it needs to be addressed.

I think you need to be alittle more clear on what your refering to as well because as I stated, there is no question in my quote.

AppiePils

30th June 2008, 18:53

There is no question in that post Appie... I'm sure you've heard of the word convince. I am trying to convince you that your actions in the matter are unjust. You can take that how you want it but the simple fact of the matter is there was a mistake made by you the admins, and it needs to addressed.

I think you need to be alittle more clear on what your refering to as well because as I stated, there is no question in my quote.

Perhaps not a question, more an expectation as the 'admin should fix it' - comment indicates. The two links perfectly explains how it is been dealt with.

DeadWolfBones

30th June 2008, 19:01

Having just watched the replay of the #1/#7 incident several times, it looks like it took about 3 minutes from the time of the SC period starting for the #1 to be rescued.

In my mind, this is penalty enough for all imaginable situations.

For subsequent rounds I plan to do away with the post-rescue time penalty altogether.

bdshan

30th June 2008, 19:03

BigTime

30th June 2008, 19:16

Perhaps not a question, more an expectation as the 'admin should fix it' - comment indicates. The two links perfectly explains how it is been dealt with.

I'm not even talking about how it's been dealt with. I'm simply suggesting, not expecting, what I think should be done about the way it was dealt with. Ether way I need to let it die down. I've made all the points I have to make and I respect the admins discussions. And yes, I know I'm that annoying once I start ranting... :)

Having just watched the replay of the #1/#7 incident several times, it looks like it took about 3 minutes from the time of the SC period starting for the #1 to be rescued.

In my mind, this is penalty enough for all imaginable situations.

For subsequent rounds I plan to do away with the post-rescue time penalty altogether.

:)

rcpilot

30th June 2008, 20:19

The length of your post does nothing to validate your incorrect claim of the long history of ex post facto reversals. As was similarly correctly pointed out a couple of races ago, this instance was completely different that the my3id team instance.

There is no consistent way to give your team points back that theorhetically you might have received after the race ends. Had there been another SC, allowing you to make up a lap would have been a sound bit of help.

The race was run with the rules as written. The push car was dispensed as soon as logical to do so. Stuff happens.

The admins apologized for forgetting to change the rules, there's not much more that can be done.
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=719002#post719002
Car gets a lap back for being accidentally kicked by the admins.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=581562#post581562
Car gets 30 seconds back post race to counteract a drive through.

Hardly unprecedented now that I took a bit more time to research it. (Jumble of race reports around, but I knew there was something ticking in my head along these lines.)

It's not like my suggestion is 'OMG ADVANTAGE'. If you give us 2 1/2 minutes back we end up 11th, that's 6 points from where we are now, I suggested a lower median on that of 3. And I'm not referring to the push car in regards to this penalty, that was just an 'oh yeah, please look at this in the future.' Not interested in getting grandfathered, just interested in having the rules applied as they should have been at the time.

srdsprinter

30th June 2008, 20:39

Like I said, if there was a SC afterword, Possibly giving you a lap back would have been prudent.

The admins posted the rules changes way in advance, I would think a XRR team caught in the gravel before, such as your own, would be sure to know the exact wording of any changes to the push car pentalty. Shame none of you read the rules changes (not knowing the rules pre-race is against the rules btw).

In Round 5, the admins acted under there written rules. They realized the conflict but aside from their already issued apology, there is nothing that they can fairly issue.

Note: Common sense is to be used regarding the rules. Teams who discover an unseen loophole should bring it up prior to an event, so that the event organisers can give a ruling on it. Participants in the series are expected to respect the marshals’ decisions and accept their rulings. Team Leaders, please make sure that all of the members of your team have read and fully understand the rules. The rules are subject to change throughout the season--all drivers are asked to re-read the rules prior to each event.

rcpilot

30th June 2008, 20:46

Like I said, if there was a SC afterword, Possibly giving you a lap back would have been prudent.

The admins posted the rules changes way in advance, I would think a XRR team caught in the gravel before, such as your own, would be sure to know the exact wording of any changes to the push car pentalty. Shame none of you read the rules changes (not knowing the rules pre-race is against the rules btw).

In Round 5, the admins acted under there written rules. They realized the conflict but aside from their already issued apology, there is nothing that they can fairly issue.
Yes, and I told our active driver at the time that the rule was 2 1/2 minutes when asked before leaving, and knew myself. And our active driver was honking his brains out at the admins trying to catch their attention wondering WTF was going on as he waited longer and longer in his pit box. I cannot remember what the Ventrilo situation was at the time but we were down to at least 3, 2 being in the car in no position to contact admins from our normal minimum of 4. Your constant state of attack is wearing thin when I've been very calm and explained my points thoroughly through each post. (Explanations and points you've thoroughly ignored.) Calling everyone on my team involved ignorant on this when events just plain conspired against us (and I've stated we weren't) and the admins who wrote the rule completely forgot about it is just getting pretty low (I believe there were 5 on at the time although some were newer to the series).

srdsprinter

30th June 2008, 20:50

rcpilot

30th June 2008, 21:03

Beligerant, really?

I've posted several points you have chose to ignore as well.

If you did in fact read the rules pre-race, why did you not choose to inform the admins of their rule change ommission in regards to the push car pentalty?
Because when you're regularly keeping track of rule updates you don't expect the rule updates to not get transferred to the set of rules you already know? Why didn't you inform the admins of the rule change omission? You obviously read the entire thing before each race considering you just asked me this.

srdsprinter

30th June 2008, 21:13

Look at the rules and the situation at hand. Then continue as you best see fit. Good Luck.

rcpilot

30th June 2008, 21:59

While on the subject of messed up rules:

2.1) Events start at 19:00 UTC with a 30 minute qualifying session.

BigTime

30th June 2008, 22:01

Look at the rules and the situation at hand. Then continue as you best see fit. Good Luck.

When the admins say they are going to do something, they should do it... If the admins are ever going to change rules, they should always post on the forums about it. The admins here did this, however they didn't change the rule. So you guys, including the admins, are basically saying that we should be forced to re-read the entire set of rules every round to check it for mistakes? I'm not the IGTC editor so I ask you to look at the situation at hand...

I said I was done but I have to respond to this. :D

Riders Motion

30th June 2008, 22:13

So, what's going on here? A fight of racers? Funneh. :D

Dragonmen

30th June 2008, 23:05

So, what's going on here? A fight of racers? Funneh. :D

Celebrity death match.

Wanna popcorn? I have Coke and Beer too... and some other snacks... come on, join watching it...

On topic:
Ok, admins made a mistake, DWB said he feels sorry for it.
"He who works, makes mistakes." :shrug:

If we answer the question "will #1 get anything from getting back 2,5mins?" maybe we can finish this discussion...
If NO, then no problem at all.
if YES, then continue to argue :tilt:

My 5 cents: admins word is final, what they decide - stays.