Spinoff : Y30 class balancing

[Scawen]

Some cars got a few changes to make them handle better.

I hope that class balancing is not damaged by this change. If anything, the TBO and big GTR balance should be improved. There's more of a question mark over the small GTR class, where I hope the balancing is not damaged.

I hope nothing needs to be changed, forcing another incompatible version. Anyway, if you thing the balancing is wrong and have some test results to post, that would be good to hear. Please don't post vague opinions on how it should be different. We need hard facts and figures if anything is to change.

Here is the list of physics changes compared with version Y :

Big GTR class :

XRR : weight dist back 1.5% - CoG down 13 mm
FZR : weight dist forward 1.5% - CoG down 5 mm
FXR : weight dist back 1.5% - CoG down 8 mm

TBO class :

XRT : weight dist back 1% - CoG down 3 mm
RB4 : CoG down 10 mm

XRT and RB4 also got a small rear suspension update to raise the rear roll centre a little. This should reduce body roll and make them nicer to drive.

Small GTR class

XFR CoG down by 10 mm and weight distribution back 1.0%
UFR CoG down by 22 mm and weight distribution back 1.5%

XFR also now has a sequential gearbox.

[Lotsipxes]

Thank you for that!

Is it possible that we get the coordinates of the suspension pickup points?

[mcintyrej]

I've been wondering about the XRT Scawen - you say that it would be easier to drive. In what way is it easier? I had a little go with it last night and couldn't feel much difference. Is it not meant to slide as much? Turn in better? Maybe I was just using a crap setup.

[danowat]

I've been wondering about the XRT Scawen - you say that it would be easier to drive. In what way is it easier? I had a little go with it last night and couldn't feel much difference. Is it not meant to slide as much? Turn in better? Maybe I was just using a crap setup.

I would say the XRT is MUCH easier to drive now, the rear end is much more "planted" and much less likely to break out of line.

Best way to experiance it, is to drive the XRT on the South city chicane course, use the same setup for each, and you will see how the new rear suspension makes the XRT behave.

[Flame CZE]

I've been wondering about the XRT Scawen - you say that it would be easier to drive. In what way is it easier? I had a little go with it last night and couldn't feel much difference. Is it not meant to slide as much? Turn in better? Maybe I was just using a crap setup.
In Y any Y30, I went on a track using the same setup and in Y30 it is harder to slide... I feel it.

[three_jump]

Would anyone of you guys be interested in doing a Session tonight with the TBO class? So we could give the balancing a proper go :D

EDIT:
I'll try to be from 19:00 CEST on. (And also with a server set up :))

[danowat]

I can get on aslong as it's early, sorta like between 5-8pm BST

[NitroNitrous]

I drove the XRT with my favourite setup (rallycross with tarmac tires and better brakes) and it´s just... orgasmic :D
Thanks Scavier :bowdown:

BTW I did a race against 19 AI with Turbos and XRT > FXO > RB4, but could be because of the track (Aston 8.8km). I´ll make more races in different tracks

[LiveForBoobs]

XRR : weight dist back 1.5% - CoG down 13 mm
FZR : weight dist forward 1.5% - CoG down 5 mm
FXR : weight dist back 1.5% - CoG down 8 mm

I just hope the FXR isn't as fast as the other two now, otherwise everyone will be driving it...

And a question:
FZR : weight dist forward 1.5% - does this mean the FZR will slip more when leaving a curve?

[AndroidXP]

It means the FZR won't understeer as much.

[troy]

Would anyone of you guys be interested in doing a Session tonight with the TBO class? So we could give the balancing a proper go :D

if you can add a time to that, i (and lots of others hopefully) will probably be there. i can still remember the good old testpatch racing days (lrf on we1r) some of the best racing i ever had.

[three_jump]

I just hope the FXR isn't as fast as the other two now

yeah... but be quite silly to have 3 equal fast cars when we can have 2. :really:

[Vitr]

THX scawen XRT is driveable as in patch X :thumb: :thumbsup:

[Scawen]

Thank you for that!

Is it possible that we get the coordinates of the suspension pickup points?If you click on "susp" view in the garage or press shift+L in-game you can see the suspension geometry. I don't know if that helps with what you want.

I just hope the FXR isn't as fast as the other two now, otherwise everyone will be driving it...I believe the main benefit with the FXR is to do with tyre temperatures, and because they are slightly less of a problem to deal with, there is a bit more flexibility in how you set up the car.

FZR : weight dist forward 1.5% - does this mean the FZR will slip more when leaving a curve?Presumably the slight reduction in rear weight means you need to put the power on a little later - though the car is still heavily rear biased so it is still a good one for putting on the power early - but I guess you will get higher cornering speeds.

[Jakg]

yeah... but be quite silly to have 3 equal fast cars when we can have 2. :really:
The cars shouldn't be equal - the FXR is easier to drive, and so should be slower, as it's less likely to spin out.

[LFSn00b]

I can get on aslong as it's early, sorta like between 5-8pm BST5pm BST sounds fine for me

[jayhawk]

. We need hard facts and figures if anything is to change.



Would you like replays from different tracks, using setups like Race S and whatnot?

[Scawen]

Not really, I won't sit here watching replays that won't prove anything.

It will be interesting to hear the results of some test races. Though I have some doubt that there will be conclusive evidence in such a short time, I'll see what information is posted.

I think the class balancing will be so close that any imbalance may not be reliably detected in these couple of days. Specially as different cars in a class have strengths and weakness on different tracks.

[Jakg]

What's really needed is top drivers doing some fairly long races (as obviously certain cars are faster over sprints but slower when needing pits etc).

@ Scawen - if no-one moans without providing data then I'd say it's safe to say you've done well enough :D

[91mason91]

scawen can you help me?
i have got Y30 but i have reached all my unlocks due to it corrupting my files.:really:
it says you have had all ur unlocks for this week.:(
can you help me?

[Scawen]

I have given you 2 unlocks but from now on I will NOT respond to any more unlock requests. An unlock has nothing to do with class balancing and we have a technical support email system on our website.

I'm programming LFS, not doing forum based technical support services.

[AndroidXP]

Would you like replays from different tracks, using setups like Race S and whatnot?
Unfortunately class balancing is nothing that can be determined quickly or easily. You basically need very skilled drivers to make hotlaps getting the maximum out of the car, so you have a sort of baseline for the raw speed, and you need ideally a complete league series with many similarly skilled drivers using all cars of the car class on different tracks and race lengths, to see the average speed over multiple laps.

In the timeframe that Scawen has available (~1 week till patch Z?), I guess the only thing that can be done are hotlaps on a range of tracks to see if one car completely dominates the other(s), and then try to fix that as much as possible.

[Feffe85]

I have given you 2 unlocks but from now on I will NOT respond to any more unlock requests. An unlock has nothing to do with class balancing and we have a technical support email system on our website.

I'm programming LFS, not doing forum based technical support services.

WORD!

OTher then that i think the balance is good, dont really notice so much but as someother people said, it´s harder to break out the rear of the XRT now ;)

BTW; have u done anything to the sounds? engines and such? i feel that the XFG is a little sharper in the exhaust with the default enginesounds.. sorry to get offtopic here :/

[91mason91]

ScawenI have given you 2 unlocks but from now on I will NOT respond to any more unlock requests. An unlock has nothing to do with class balancing and we have a technical support email system on our website.

I'm programming LFS, not doing forum based technical support services. well sorry for asking i was only confused where to put it. :(

[Scawen]

Sorry for sounding moody, there are some crazy questions going round and round now, people asking ridiculous questions or not reading first posts. There's a lot of nonsense I have to read through to get to the proper info.

I wanted to make it clear to anyone else that people should not start asking for unlocks on the test patch threads (or on the forum at all).

[Kid222]

well sorry for asking i was only confused where to put it. :(
Next time use this form please.
http://www.lfs.net/?page=mailus

[danowat]

I have done a little racing on Y30 this morning, and although I am not by any means an XRT master (far from it) the RB4 seems to be quite a bit quicker, even on a track like Blackwood......

[El_TaxMaN]

Sorry for suggestion:

Scawen, Could you put an option to change the driver's position in the garage? :shrug:

[Bean0]

Just ran a few laps in the BabyR, certainly sems a lot more planted although bashing the higher kerbs at FE2R will still end up with you the wrong way up.

Car feels 10x better though :)

[AndroidXP]

Sorry for suggestion:

Scawen, Could you put an option to change the driver's position in the garage? :shrug:
No, because it's a driver setting and you're not supposed to switch the position back and forth depending on the current track.

[NitroNitrous]

I made a large race with the Turbos in Westhill with 19 AIs and the lap times were very close, none car seemed to be faster than other, so balance is perfect. I will continue testing anyway :thumb: (My personal lap times were also very close with the 3 cars)

[JJ72]

AI ain't accurate, at least in my experience they don't know how to exploit the traction of the RB4 very well, and they tend to bunch up, the car behind can't really run their true pace.

[troy]

we're online testing some TBO balancing on the "T7R|Teamserver (lfs://|T7R%7CTeamserver|0|S2|/)" now :)
(lfs://|T7R%7CTeamserver|0|S2|/)

[danowat]

Some top class races, personally, I bloody LOVE the XRT now :)

[nesrulz]

XRT rulz. :) :thumb:

YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuV-rT2-WW4)...

[jayhawk]

I think it is safe to say that the FXO has been knocked off the the top of the hill. The RB4's rear is not so disconnected anymore, and the XRT...oh, how I love this car now! Oversteer is as predictable as the XRG's.

[N I K I]

I've heard that someone said that FXO has less power now. I was on TBO balancing server and since I sow like everyone drives XRT and someone RB4 I picked up FXO so we can compare. Most of those drivers were on my skill level, I think :)
FXO's tires rly helped me in first 2/3 laps to get my positions back and take few more. And then later they go up to 85C. We drove only 6 laps, I assume they would get to 90C if there's more laps (just like in old patch). I did my best laps with hot tires, because there was no so much traffic going on and lap times were just slightly faster then XRT's.
Somehow I have feeling that FXO understeared less then it used in old patch, but that might be setup too.

[Scawen]

Somehow I have feeling that FXO understeared less then it used in old patch, but that might be setup too.In fact the FXO is unchanged and you can prove this - you can download a replay from LFS World and it will still run on your new version without going OOS, proving the car is not changed.

I'm pleased that the RB4 and XRT have got better. I know the FXO was still the class leader and it's interesting that those small changes have made such a difference.

[three_jump]

rb4 understeers like hell and eats front tires for breakfast now... or I'm just too stupid for a decent setup :D

[SRR Marty]

I drove the XRR on FE Black in both Game versions using the exact same setup. What i can say until now is that in Y30 the car behaves much nicer than before. This Spin-Happyness has changed to an easy to handle oversteer. The back of the car doesnt spin out that easy as it did in Y.
But on the other Hand the general setup became more understeering. so in midspeed corners the car understeers much more and it feels like the car became more unwilling to turn into the corner, with the side effect that XRR now eats front tires much more than it did before.
Also the car now wants to slide with the rear when breaking the car out of high speeds straights into low speed corners.

that were my first impressions - further testing will go on.

ps. i realy dislike the digital turbo gauge. the analog one was much better, but thats my opinion

[-V-Max-]

that understeer is very much noticeable! Maybe it is'tn bad to included new RACE_S setups in a new patch..

[Fox 2]

Tested GTT today. Well, TBH, it didn't felt nicer, nor faster anyhow. At first there was some understeer, so I changed susp. a bit accordingly. And it was pretty much the same XRT i've known for years. In 25 laps i couldn't even beat my own PB.

But ok, I've decided to be fair here and compare time with FXO. I grabbed FXO set from inferno (which seemed quite outdated), jumped in the car, and on my 2nd lap ever lap on that combo (!) I managed to beat my XRT time by 0.5 seconds. At the same time FXO was much easier to drive too. IMO, that's a really huge difference. FXO is just in another class now (even with Y30 changes).

I think XRT actually needs to be faster (at WR level), as it is harder to drive. Average racer will drive both cars equally fast this way. That's how it was with GT and GTi in S1 days (and now pretty much too) and it worked (works) really well i think.

[arco]

I have done a little racing on Y30 this morning, and although I am not by any means an XRT master (far from it) the RB4 seems to be quite a bit quicker, even on a track like Blackwood......

I actually find the RB4 a tiny bit slower now. I've been hotlapping FE1r a little in my spare time the last days. With Y my best time is 46.04, and I can pretty easily go under 46.20. With Y30, my best time so far is 46.18, and it's quite harder to do the same splits as in Y.

[Easy_Mike]

I did some laps with these cars.
This is a first impression so i might be wrong.

XFR. lovely handling,new gearbox suits the car just fine.
BUT. compared to UFR it tends to me more willing to roll over.
IMO the CoG should be lowerd slightly on the XFR.lets say 5 more.
XFR imo has become the most "Flipwilling" car in this class.

The UFR is just glued to the track now and is very nice to push to the edge.

We use these cars in a cup so im pretty used to them.
and i used same setups as i use in Y,too notice the diffrens better.

anyone else share my opinion on this?
i will try to test more but this is as i said my first impression.

/Mikael Dalin

[dougie-lampkin]

Some tests, using Pro AI in both XFR and UFR. 3 lap race at one config of each track, average of all 3 lap times taken as result.

--- BL1R ---
XFR: Lap 1 - 1:26.92
Lap 2 - 1:20.69
Lap 3 - DNF (Rolled on second-last corner)
Average - DNF (But can be taken to be 1:23.80)

UFR: Lap 1 - 1:27.49
Lap 2 - 1:20.62
Lap 3 - 1:20.46
Average - 1:22.85
------------

--- SO6 ---
XFR: Lap 1 - 1:16.87
Lap 2 - 1:10.07
Lap 3 - 1:10.04
Average - 1:12.32

UFR: Lap 1 - 1:18.07
Lap 2 - 1:11.69
Lap 3 - 1:10.65
Average - 1:13.47
-----------

--- FE3 ---
XFR: Lap 1 - 1:40.46
Lap 2 - 1:30.68
Lap 3 - 1:30.70
Average - 1:33.94

UFR: Lap 1 - 1:38.01
Lap 2 - 1:30.73
Lap 3 - 1:30.69
Average - 1:33.14
-----------

--- AU3 ---
XFR: Lap 1 - 0:13.41
Lap 2 - 0:13.32
Lap 3 - 0:13.50
Average - 0:13.41

UFR: Lap 1 - 0:13.37
Lap 2 - 0:13.56
Lap 3 - 0:13.58
Average - 0:13.50
-----------

--- KY3R ---
XFR: Lap 1 - 2:49.01
Lap 2 - 2:41.45
Lap 3 - 2:41.54
Average - 2:44.00

UFR: Lap 1 - 2:49.58
Lap 2 - 2:41.49
Lap 3 - 2:42.74
Average - 2:44.60
------------

--- WE1 ---
XFR: Lap 1 - 1:58.17
Lap 2 - 1:51.09
Lap 3 - 1:51.39
Average - 1:53.55

UFR: Lap 1 - 1:58.68
Lap 2 - 1:50.87
Lap 3 - 1:51.70
Average - 1:53.75
------------

--- AS1 ---
XFR: Lap 1 - 1:00.58
Lap 2 - 0:55.01
Lap 3 - 0:55.20
Average - 0:56.93

UFR: Lap 1 - 1:01.60
Lap 2 - 0:56.30
Lap 3 - 0:55.72
Average - 0:57.87
------------

Total Averages:
XFR - 1:25.42
UFR - 1:25.59

IMO, the difference between them is so minimal, trying to get them to within 0.01 of each other isn't worth the time it would take. The UFR is also more reliable, as shown in BL, where the XFR rolled on a corner, but the UFR stayed planted, presumably because of the lower CoG.

I hope these tests are of some help to you anyway :shrug:

The new-type rendering from Y24 is the biz. Running everything up full, even full AA/AF, my FPS never went below 100 while testing at south city with the 2 cars. Fantastic idea Scawen :thumb:

Replays of all except FE and AU attached. AU, there's no need (it's a straight line :rolleyes:), and FE I forgot to save it :shy:

[arco]

I actually find the RB4 a tiny bit slower now. I've been hotlapping FE1r a little in my spare time the last days. With Y my best time is 46.04, and I can pretty easily go under 46.20. With Y30, my best time so far is 46.18, and it's quite harder to do the same splits as in Y.

Update: Softening the suspension stiffness seems to help getting it closer to Y lap times, and more consistent similar times. 46.09 as of now. :)

[Lotsipxes]

If you click on "susp" view in the garage or press shift+L in-game you can see the suspension geometry. I don't know if that helps with what you want.

No, not really. What I want is the actual numbers of the coordinates so I can analyze the suspension. It's not necessary, but it would be fun for some of us car geeks to be able to do that.

Then we could get graphs for camber compensation, roll center movement and so on.

[marsaz]

Update: Softening the suspension stiffness seems to help getting it closer to Y lap times, and more consistent similar times. 46.09 as of now. :)

slightly different car needs slightly different setup :)

last week i've been messing around with XRT, building setup from scratch. So i knew exactly how it behaves before Y30. Now when the patch is out, car's balance went a bit to the front so i had to adjust rear suspension a bit to have that planted front end and a bit loose rear end again. And now it feels like there's more overall grip. I can put power down earlier and the car is more predictable and controlable. It should make XRT more popular and of course faster if it's in proper hands. :thumb:

[LiveForBoobs]

I did some laps with these cars.
This is a first impression so i might be wrong.

XFR. lovely handling,new gearbox suits the car just fine.
BUT. compared to UFR it tends to me more willing to roll over.
IMO the CoG should be lowerd slightly on the XFR.lets say 5 more.
XFR imo has become the most "Flipwilling" car in this class.

The UFR is just glued to the track now and is very nice to push to the edge.

We use these cars in a cup so im pretty used to them.
and i used same setups as i use in Y,too notice the diffrens better.

anyone else share my opinion on this?
i will try to test more but this is as i said my first impression.

/Mikael Dalin

I think we don't want to have all cars behaving like F1 all glued to the track, that would be easy to drive but then you would drive a car IRL and you'd slip. As long as the two of them are equally fast and realistic i think thats what really matters.

[Dazmyster]

you can change the position of the driver from options! this is a irrelivant request. i want the Z version to be out soon and not want people like you askin for points improvements.. new cars are a big part on the suggestion section and hope thish patch Z is out soon. Let scawen get on with programming and stop posting junk for him to wade through..

[Shotglass]

this is not directly related to the current balancing but more of a realism inconsistency that also affects the class balance
imho now that the xfr has gone through all the trouble of putting a sequential box with ignition cut in there the ufr should at least have an unsyncronized h gate which allows shifting without using the clutch to make the class more believeable as race tuned road cars

[DrDNA]

Tested GTT today. Well, TBH, it didn't felt nicer, nor faster anyhow. At first there was some understeer, so I changed susp. a bit accordingly. And it was pretty much the same XRT i've known for years. In 25 laps i couldn't even beat my own PB.

But ok, I've decided to be fair here and compare time with FXO. I grabbed FXO set from inferno (which seemed quite outdated), jumped in the car, and on my 2nd lap ever lap on that combo (!) I managed to beat my XRT time by 0.5 seconds. At the same time FXO was much easier to drive too. IMO, that's a really huge difference. FXO is just in another class now (even with Y30 changes).

I think XRT actually needs to be faster (at WR level), as it is harder to drive. Average racer will drive both cars equally fast this way. That's how it was with GT and GTi in S1 days (and now pretty much too) and it worked (works) really well i think.

As a bit of a "counter-view", after maybe 7-8 races on T7R's server just testing the TBO class, at no point did I see FXOs dominating the field. Tracks raced: Westhill, Fern Bay Gold and Aston National - a pretty good mix! I even took the RB4 out for a race or two at Westhill and it was able to keep up with the XRTs within the top 6 (and the RB4 collects a lot of dust in my garage...) until the front tires would turn into serving trays around lap 3 on account of an "obsolete" set.

Forgot to add: It was great fun seeing all three car-types mixing-it-up, though more RB4 drivers would be nice to see. It's not as fun or challenging a car to drive as the XRT (imo) but you still need to understand how to drive it to its full extent without killing the tires, so it does require it's own type of finesse to keep up with the front.

[Easy_Mike]

I think we don't want to have all cars behaving like F1 all glued to the track, that would be easy to drive but then you would drive a car IRL and you'd slip. As long as the two of them are equally fast and realistic i think thats what really matters.

And thats not the point i was thinking about.
the thing is that the cars seams to have chanced behavior so XFR handles like UFR and the other way around..ONLY thinking of the rollover thing..othervise its ok.
But i want to try it out more before i start arguing for my point.
The best way to heck is to do a track with the cars and then just go to y30 and continue..best way to notice diffrens.(me thinks)

[Sir moi 407]

Finally the new class balancing with mini GTRs is just perfect after a short test I do the same laps times with the 2 cars ;)
Sorry for when I said it was bad I just didn't know that only 1.5% of gravity center could change that much the car :scratchch
But the FXO is still really really better than the 2 others and I'll find a way to prove that ;)

[LiveForBoobs]

Finally the new class balancing with mini GTRs is just perfect after a short test I do the same laps times with the 2 cars ;)
Sorry for when I said it was bad I just didn't know that only 1.5% of gravity center could change that much the car :scratchch
But the FXO is still really really better than the 2 others and I'll find a way to prove that ;)

I think so too. Yesterday I saw NIKI driving with the FXO and saw him going from 15th to 1st with the FXO. He was faster than any other racer by 1s. He and another guy were the only FXO's, the rest 20 had mostly XRT and some RB4. Another reason why i think a lot of people say it's not the fastest anymore it's because everyone is driving the two that were modified, and i understand, but it's only likely that someone with either XRT or RB4 will win, since FXO drivers are so few, if any. IMO the only 2 ways of knowing whether the class is balanced is waiting for good WR's to come out, and seeing some endurace races, by humans of course... AI testing is quite inconclusive in my opinion.

[M4ver1ck]

You guys are mainly talking about the Westhill results, aren't you?
Westhill is a track that should fit to the XRT because it's a highspeed track. Otherwise XRT will be pwned in a hard way on the tricky tracks like the South City ones and nothing would have been changed...