How realistic LFS is?

[BrainBT]

I have tried on real tracks cars above 250-300hp, and they are A LOT more easy to drive than some 140cv rear wheel drive lfs cars.
And it's all about grip.

I would like to understand how physics works on this game, because I want to race really seriously, but DAMN, this game is making me change my way of driving.
For example I have found the GTI (and almost all the front wheel drive cars) very realistic, but an XRT seems to have 250 or 300hp by looking at the way it slides in 1 or 2 gear, according to the way I push the throttle.
I have noticed this things only at low speeds, when it's supposed to be more stable. Sliding when I'm at 30 Km/h (feet on air) on a race car it's only possible in my mind on an ice track (and not coming from 200Km/h, of course).
And there are a lot of more examples.
A real BMW M3 doesn't spin "donut style" when you are only in 50% throttle in first gear, if you don't turn the wheel.
Well, it's too long to explain, but I think people understands me.

The game is fantastic, that is why purchased it, but I think some lfs cars has less grip than real and more powered cars, specially at low speeds.

I think that the more realistic a game is, the less you have to "re-adapt" your way of driving.

Well, that's all. I will continue "re-adapting" my way of driving, but keep the good work, as you all LFS crew do :)

P.D: (I have WR setups, the best DFP settings, and a lot of more settings properly configured)

[BrainBT]

call me n00b if you want, guys :thumb: (but only in LFS :)

[NotAnIllusion]

The low-speed grip problems are well known, and the tyre model will be improved. It's just not complete yet. Hopefully things will become easier (more realistic) in the future ;)

[Niels Heusinkveld]

Brian,

you'll get as many opinions as replies to this one :)

I agree LFS is 'unrealistic'.. The promis it holds is great however. And after long hard work you can actually make the cars hard to oversteer.

Try the attatched setups, though they only are for RWD road cars. It is hard to say what is wrong exactly. It seems like the tyres don't have a transition from grip buildup, stick, grip loss.. you seem to go from grip loss to grip loss as if the tyre barely has a preference of not slipping / sliding.

It has been discussed at high and low quality levels of conversation.. We will have to see what the physics updates before S2 goes final do to the handling. Meanwhile try these setups. I'm now working on a new pack which provides more of a challenging / rewarding drive than these ones that where there basically to make it nearly as hard as possible for LFS to oversteer out of control..

N

[BrainBT]

The low-speed grip problems are well known, and the tyre model will be improved. It's just not complete yet. Hopefully things will become easier (more realistic) in the future ;)

Oh, it's well known... thanks for the info.
As I said, I am starting in this world (sim racing), and I am always reading the forum, improving my hardware and software settings.
Maybe some of my questions are well known too, but that's the way I learn :)

[BrainBT]

Brian,

you'll get as many opinions as replies to this one :)

I agree LFS is 'unrealistic'.. The promis it holds is great however. And after long hard work you can actually make the cars hard to oversteer.

Try the attatched setups, though they only are for RWD road cars. It is hard to say what is wrong exactly. It seems like the tyres don't have a transition from grip buildup, stick, grip loss.. you seem to go from grip loss to grip loss as if the tyre barely has a preference of not slipping / sliding.

It has been discussed at high and low quality levels of conversation.. We will have to see what the physics updates before S2 goes final do to the handling. Meanwhile try these setups. I'm now working on a new pack which provides more of a challenging / rewarding drive than these ones that where there basically to make it nearly as hard as possible for LFS to oversteer out of control..

N

Thanks for the setup, I will try.

I really like this game, and the way it's going to.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Welcome to LFS, the great vortex of you're life's time.... you're already in the gravitational field, kiss your other hobbies goodbye....

[BrainBT]

Welcome to LFS, the great vortex of you're life's time.... you're already in the gravitational field, kiss your other hobbies goodbye....

that's the f****** true! My girlfriend agrees with you too! (but she's not happy) LOL
:thumb:

[joeynuggetz]

I think you're used to racing cars in other games that have slicks. You cant compare that to road tires on road cars. Try the slickmod and fit some slicks on the road cars and you'll see that it's all in the tires.

[BrainBT]

I think you're used to racing cars in other games that have slicks. You cant compare that to road tires on road cars. Try the slickmod and fit some slicks on the road cars and you'll see that it's all in the tires.

It's not a question of slicks, it's a question of reality.
Even with my girlfriend's seat ibiza I get more grip at low speeds than with the lfs GTI. And my Opel Astra Coupe seems to have glue on his tyres, if I compare it to some lfs cars (only in some situations, of course, the ones we were talking about)
I have to tell you that this is the first time I really show interest in a racing game (sim racing world), because I know this is (and will be) "The game" :)
What is the "slickmod"? (noob, remember)

[Blowtus]

sense of speed is one of the problems that causes this 'low grip' feel. Was doing a corner on fe gold rev the other day that felt terribly slow, but when I thought about a similar corner I'd done on a track 'in real life', I was going about 20kms an hour faster in the rb4, than my rx7. Real life doesn't feel slow, but the game does at times :) Obviously that's hardly a scientific measure, but I'd be pretty confident the problem is not with outright grip levels, but with the way the grip 'feels' when you push the limit. There is also the issue of putting power down while cornering, which definately has a way to go...

[Vendetta]

You can find the slickmod on this (http://koti.mbnet.fi/kegetys/lfs/) page. It works with the latest patch (.05q)

[BrainBT]

Well I have to say that after decreasing the sensibility of the pedals from 50% to 25% in the logitech profiler I have increased my stability in all rear wheel drive cars. Now the pedals feel much more "expanded", less concentrated. Hard when I push full throttle, soft when I only "touch" the pedal. So there's a long way for me to set up EVERYTHING :shrug:

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Well I have to say that after decreasing the sensibility of the pedals from 50% to 25% in the logitech profiler I have increased my stability in all rear wheel drive cars. Now the pedals feel much more "expanded", less concentrated. Hard when I push full throttle, soft when I only "touch" the pedal. So there's a long way for me to set up EVERYTHING :shrug:

Indeed setting things up to accomodate your style and taste is a big part of things. Also like blowtus said until you've played for awhile it's hard to really feel the sense of speed, but once you're used to it I personally think LFS is unsurpassed in this area. The feeling of being connected to the car, and the car in turn being connected to the road (most of the time :D ) is phenomenal. Glancing at the speedo ever so often helps one to appreciate the real "speed", and the G meter at the bottom (with the F9 screen on) tells a lot too.

It's hard one you've been driving one of the big 3 GTRs, when going back to the road cars, for the first few laps I invariably feel like I am on a skating rink. But after a few laps it starts to feel like I'm really moving again.

[AndroidXP]

But more important, when you race the fast cars for a while and then go back to the oldskool ones, you'll be totally flattened how hard it is to make them step out. The first time I drove the XRT after a looong time of XRR carnage I thought it's glued on rails.

[mrodgers]

But more important, when you race the fast cars for a while and then go back to the oldskool ones, you'll be totally flattened how hard it is to make them step out. The first time I drove the XRT after a looong time of XRR carnage I thought it's glued on rails.
So true. When the S2 demo was released, I don't think I ever made a complete lap in the XR Turbo. I of course jumped right into the FZR when S2 Licensed was released and now occationally jump back to the demo servers. The XRT is such a wimp of a car now compared to back then when I "couldn't" drive it.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Really?!?! I find the opposite... After trying FE Gold Rev in an FXR for ages a couple days ago (PS That track is a nitemare if you've never raced on it before... The REVs are still foreign to me mostly) I went to FE Green REV in a normal FX0, and the thing was all over the damn place for a few laps. I couldn't make turns without consequences for a little while.

[Bob Smith]

Drive some proper RWD cars then. :p

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Drive some proper RWD cars then. :p

Once the physics cooperate properly I plan to!:D

:hide:

It's just an excuse I know



Actually I used to drive them exclusively, so I switched for a bit. Plus I can relate them to my car IRL better so that's cool.

[Bob Smith]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. If I could get into a real Formula Renault, throw it around all over the place and catch any slides without a worry, or semi-drift an MRT5 around an autocross layout, I think I'd be most impressed with myself!

[LRB_Aly]

My girlfriend agrees with you too! (but she's not happy) LOL
:thumb:

he he I know this problem too. Unfortunatly you can't fix it by setup :)

[jtw62074]

http://www.performancesimulations.com/files

Right click and 'save as' ToddSim13a.wmv.

Forgive the horrendous graphics, but I've got to say the lack of g-forces in LFS is probably not at all to blame for what the OP is talking about. This vid is from my sim with a 3500 lb car and 350 HP running on tires that, get this, only pull about 0.93-0.95g on the skidpad. That's about 15-20% less grip than the LFS street tires, isn't it? And there's no downforce here at all to help things out. None.

55% of the weight is on the front tires and it's got a rather stiff differential too. The throttle is shown there so you can see where there's lots of full throttle corner exits at low speed and all that's needed is a little steering correction to keep it under wraps. I drove around for about four or five hours one night with this car or variations of it and don't recall ever accidentally spinning out when just trying to put in some aggressive, fast laps. With 500HP the car is still quite controllable on those tires. On slicks it's almost boringly easy to drive until you drop the weight to 2500lb or so. And of course there's no less g-force feel on this ugly thing than anything else I've driven on a PC :P

Methinks the difference in sims is in the tire modelling :) Fortunately Scawen is a sharp cookie and will undoubtedly improve this over time. I personally think the multiplayer is the best out there, although at the moment GTL gets most of my play time (aside from my own ugly sim, which gets a bit more, but I may be a bit biased :p )

[Vesa]

http://www.performancesimulations.com/files

Right click and 'save as' ToddSim13a.wmv.

Forgive the horrendous graphics, but I've got to say the lack of g-forces in LFS is probably not at all to blame for what the OP is talking about. This vid is from my sim with a 3500 lb car and 350 HP running on tires that, get this, only pull about 0.93-0.95g on the skidpad. That's about 15-20% less grip than the LFS street tires, isn't it? And there's no downforce here at all to help things out. None.

You'll have to take into account that that road is as smooth as a babys bottom. No bumps in sight. That might account for a bit of the extra grip.

I'm not saying LFS has it right, because it doesn't. Just pointing out a detail.

[Niels Heusinkveld]

bumps are very important.. The tyre model is about as important as the bumps model I'd say. Sine wave bumps like GTR are horrible. RFactor seems to do them a bit better but I'd say its time for a new approach to bumps.. Iracing is now laserscanning tracks or something with all bumps taken into account.. If you can put this in a sim somehow..

Todds tyres almost look too easy but once there are bumps it might be a bit harder.

Sims haven't really moved in the 21st century yet :/

[Blowtus]

I'm pretty sure 'real life' g's are always higher than skidpad tests...

[jtw62074]

You'll have to take into account that that road is as smooth as a babys bottom. No bumps in sight. That might account for a bit of the extra grip.

I'm not saying LFS has it right, because it doesn't. Just pointing out a detail.

What extra grip? Erh hem... That vid is running 15-20% less than the LFS super street tires on this baby smooth surface. :smileypul Would you like to see what it looks like with less grip than that? Name your number ;)

[jtw62074]

I'm pretty sure 'real life' g's are always higher than skidpad tests...

Meaning...?

[Blowtus]

skid pad numbers are not an accurate representation of 'max' g values, for real world driving / racing. They're just something for U.S car mags to write about ;)

[jtw62074]

Skid pad values show lateral acceleration at constant velocity. I.e., "trimmed max g." Untrimmed is nearly always a bit higher. You see the same thing in my vid where it sometimes hits 1g even though it does 0.93-0.95 on the skidpad. I don't see the point you're trying to make though or how it relates to anything here. :shrug:

[AndroidXP]

Todd, your sim is flawed. It has way too much grip on the grass. :thumbsdow
[/sarcasm] ;)

Seriously, judging things from a video is pretty hard, and until you release a test version of your mini-sim, no amount of arguing is going to prove anything :tilt:
Remember all those "look, a comparison video between GT4 and RL. OMG driving around the cones looks soo real. Ergo GT4 = real." videos?

[50-3]

this might sound stupid but when you race these real cars do you slam the gas in 1st? i did that in my mum's car(1990 4WD Corola) and it span around! i got a good yelling from my mum. even in auto's my m8 was going down main street were doing about 40km/h he hamers it to get past the lights in time and takes it sideways. anyway the tyres are high performence road tyres not slicks/semi-slick if you put to much power into them expect them to spin!!! but hey that's wat i have picked up in the 4 mounths i have been driving.

[50-3]

I have attached a Vidio that will show how unrelistic the game can get, but this S2 is still prity young and there yet to relese a patch to fix all the phisics!

P.S. i'm a drift and it took me 40 mins before i could get a set working for drifting a FO8. i love to drift for fun but racing is always harder nomater wat any drifter says!

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

P.S. i'm a drift and it took me 40 mins before i could get a set working for drifting a FO8.

:doh:

(Tristan take it easy on him.)

umm..

Welcome to the forums BTW! What kind of car gets sideways from a 40K roll-on? Obviously a car with some pretty decent power my friend! (dry pavement right?) And you spun a low powered 90's AWD car? How on earth did you do that????

[mrbogeyman]

hey, i spun a ford fiesta 1L :D you dont need power to spin :) just speed and lack of skill :tilt:

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

No, but I assumed from his context he was talking 1st gear! Not much speed there!

Indeed back in the day I spun a Hyundai Pony, but that was a rainy night and purposely trying to drive a car w/ basically bicycle tires around a tight hairpin under FULL throttle LOL

[mrodgers]

Road conditions need to be taken into concideration in real life as well. We don't have trucks spilling oil and dumping diesel fuel all over the track in LFS. There's a certain local intersection around my place where I can burn the tires off on my undergeared Toyota Tacoma 4X4 4 cylinder in all 5 gears when I usually don't even have enough power to get out of my own way normally. It is alot of fun turning onto this road, slightly uphill, give it a goose in 2nd gear, kick the back end out, nail 3rd, get 'er spinning good in 3rd, then it's just nail 4th then 5th all the while with the tail hanging slightly out, speedometer reading round 100 mph, while I'm climbing the slight uphill at probably just over 20 mph. Not real good for the tires though :D .

[bbman]

hey, i spun a ford fiesta 1L :D you dont need power to spin :) just speed and lack of skill :tilt:
Me too... Although that was more of braking with one side on snow and the other on (very cold) tarmac with no anti-lock brakes and just a little too much of the brakes... :schwitz: Never did that again...

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

ROFL you've got to get that on video and post it LOL
EDIT @mrogers

[Blowtus]

Sorry Todd, somehow I misinterpreted your post as referring the skid pad numbers and suggesting lfs should have similar values. You're right, I was being irrelevant...
You did do a lot of typing to say that tyre modeling can cause large changes though :) :)

[silent_wind]

as far as im concerned, i've given LFS a good brake till somehting's done bout the tires mainly..until then , i stick to GTL and you'll find me at the ring with my stang shelby GT350 ! :)

see ya ,

[50-3]

it was a dry day coming out of my driveway and put my foot all the way to the ground going from a dirt driveway to cement road. did a 180 then staled it.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

See? Dirt!

[xapexcivicx]

Lol, okay, now get in the XRT, go on dirt, hold the wheel straight, and floor it.

Take 3 guesses what will happen

[mrodgers]

Lol, okay, now get in the XRT, go on dirt, hold the wheel straight, and floor it.

Take 3 guesses what will happen
He'll do the 180, but it won't stall the XRT, see, very unrealistic, LOL :D .

[AndroidXP]

Well, it's not our fault he didn't install the magical foot (aka. auto-clutch) in his car :x

[nikimere]

http://www.performancesimulations.com/files

Right click and 'save as' ToddSim13a.wmv.

Forgive the horrendous graphics, but I've got to say the lack of g-forces in LFS is probably not at all to blame for what the OP is talking about. This vid is from my sim with a 3500 lb car and 350 HP running on tires that, get this, only pull about 0.93-0.95g on the skidpad. That's about 15-20% less grip than the LFS street tires, isn't it? And there's no downforce here at all to help things out. None.

55% of the weight is on the front tires and it's got a rather stiff differential too. The throttle is shown there so you can see where there's lots of full throttle corner exits at low speed and all that's needed is a little steering correction to keep it under wraps. I drove around for about four or five hours one night with this car or variations of it and don't recall ever accidentally spinning out when just trying to put in some aggressive, fast laps. With 500HP the car is still quite controllable on those tires. On slicks it's almost boringly easy to drive until you drop the weight to 2500lb or so. And of course there's no less g-force feel on this ugly thing than anything else I've driven on a PC :P

Methinks the difference in sims is in the tire modelling :) Fortunately Scawen is a sharp cookie and will undoubtedly improve this over time. I personally think the multiplayer is the best out there, although at the moment GTL gets most of my play time (aside from my own ugly sim, which gets a bit more, but I may be a bit biased :p )

I have to say todd, the physics of that sim look pretty good. looks as good if not better than LFS! any chance we could try it?

[B2B@300]

Yeah jtw62074 I also trust in Scawen's ablility and believe he will refine the tyre models greatly :D and I 100% agree about the best multiplay part :tilt:

From your past posts it's obvious you have done a great deal of research yourself into this topic and know alot about it, so it's good to hear of your continued support of the LFS developemnt process, considering also you are developing your own sim :D
Would also love too see how you little project develops in the future too, I looked at several of the videos you posted there, it's obvious you put alot of work in already and does look promising :thumb:

I'd like to see a vid with the same setup as 13a but with grip levels similar too wet weather or maybe even ice, just for curiosity sake :D

http://www.performancesimulations.com/files/toofast.jpg :rofl:

[wolfbr]

It's not a question of slicks, it's a question of reality.
Even with my girlfriend's seat ibiza I get more grip at low speeds than with the lfs GTI. And my Opel Astra Coupe seems to have glue on his tyres, if I compare it to some lfs cars (only in some situations, of course, the ones we were talking about)
I have to tell you that this is the first time I really show interest in a racing game (sim racing world), because I know this is (and will be) "The game" :)
What is the "slickmod"? (noob, remember)

You are absolutely right.:thumb: No one real car react like LFS cars when you accelerate.

[RIP2004]

I hope Scawen does a great job with the next physics patch. Meanwhile I could recommend rFactor. It doesn't have the physics flaws. At least not that much as LFS at the moment. There the simple road going cars are a lot more controllable.

@brainBT I have the same car (Astra Coupé) and you are right with all the points. I think (hope) it will be fixed in LFS. Until then I play my recommendation which feels a lot more like an Astra Coupé physics ;)

[deggis]

It doesn't have the physics flaws. At least not that much as LFS at the moment. There the simple road going cars are a lot more controllable.
Maybe not but it has other major flaws. Like the general "I can't feel that this car is attached to the road" feeling that you get when playing ISI engine based games. :shrug:

[RIP2004]

Well, thats no real argument. The feeling takes a while. If I play a lot of LFS, rFactor feels strange. But it is the sameway around. If I play a lot rFactor, LFS feels more like flying over the street. There are a lot of things that make LFS feel more like a computer game to me. And I can name them. Less feelable bumps and rev pointer directly and lagfree connected to throttle e.g.

So unless you name things that cause that feeling thats no argument. Some people even say Need for Speed Underground feels more realistic than LFS or rFactor ;)

[xapexcivicx]

So unless you name things that cause that feeling thats no argument. Some people even say Need for Speed Underground feels more realistic than LFS or rFactor ;)
And those people we call Tools :razz::thumbsup:

[Funnybear]

Much as LFS can only improve and get more 'Realistic' it will never get anywhere near to Real Life. Physics is an amazingly complicated interplay of dynamic forces. Gravity, temperature, air, water, inertia, weight, G-force, mass and the personel feeling that one gets when sitting on a vehicle, that famous connection that you get with the tarmac. You will never get that feeling across a computer screen, when your hanging out the tail of a lotus elise and you know, insinctivly, whether to take of the power or gently put it on. LFS can only ever be a very good approximation, probably the best one there is out there, but untill they develop full immersion implants or whatever that can simulate the physical side of things on your actual body it can never be truly called realistic. It ain't never gunna happen through a steering wheel attached to a desktop.

I am sure the next Physics update will do nothing but improve the 'feel' of LFS and make it a much better simulator of real world racing. But it will never replace the feeling looning about in my Transit, semi high, semi long, twin axle, 2 litre petrol (Rear wheel drive commercial van with four wheels on one rear axle for those not around these parts). When that bitch was empty you could get that arse hanging along way out. All at legal speeds. The cowley road roundabout has never been so much fun.

[--==Gogo==--]

I'm waiting for headsets that can directly access the equilibrium sense in your ear to make the feeling of this game so realistisc like the real thing! *g*

We all are just born too early... ;)

[RIP2004]

Thats true. Thats why I don't like force feedback generally. The Feedback in a real car is WAY more and very different. The feedback from the wheel in all games I played now is a joke compared to the real thing ;)
But apart from feedback you may simulate the behaviour of the car as realistic as possible. It will be always harder to drive a simulated car, than driving it for real in terms of control, because of the lack of feedback. But then you have the advantage of not fighting against g-forces ;) This helps perhabs a bit to concentrate on the driving itself ... :shrug:

Some thoughts of me about LFS and rFactor in terms of simulation. Perhabs a bit harsh, but as I write I like LFS for a lot of things and I think it has the biggest theoretical potential, but I am not sure if it can be achieved in 100 years with just one programmer ...

http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=240639&page=6 Post 138 and a few below ...

[Hyperactive]

I'm starting to get afraid of how these threads always turn someway into debate whether LFS is better/worse than something else...

As to the post 138 at RSC, it all has been discussed so many times before...

I agree, LFS has all those faults that the post lists. But still it is the only simulator where I feel that I am driving a car instead of controlling some bounding box with 2d-table-calculated "physics". Of course that is, if you discard some cars, but mostly it is good.

[george_tsiros]

LFS is a game. It is a very good game. It is actually one of the very few games i have bought the last 4 years.

You turn the wheel (and/or press some buttons), then a program is doing some calculations and you see the result of your wheel turning (and/or button mashing) presented as a 2D projection of a theoretical 3D scene (plus some screeches and whining and the occasional feedback from the appropriate wheel).

Actually driving a car is something completely different.

Sure, what you see on your tft, after you step on the "gas pedal" and turn "the wheel", reminds you of what you do when in your (real) car and how the car reacts.
But...

Even if you manage to create a physicaly perfect mathematical formula that gives you the state, position and velocity of each component of the car taking into account every single parameter that exists, you still can't even begin to consider it "realistic".

The main reason is that the car is real. It is moving. Even if you "feel" the Gs (don't put apostrophe there. "G's" is wrong) using one of those in-ear electromechanical devices that mess with your cochlea, while playing LFS, it is still not even approaching the real thing.

Debating whether LFS is realistic or not is useless. Stop wasting precious time and go do some laps in a go-kart (a real go-kart. not the MRT).

That said, great GREAT work with LFS! (can you guys port it to pocketpc devices? i want to be able to play on my qtek9100 rofl! 320x240x16 is enough, no?) Also, has anyone got any tweaks to make the F08 perform like an F1 car?

[deggis]

(can you guys port it to pocketpc devices? i want to be able to play on my qtek9100 rofl! 320x240x16 is enough, no?)
:D

ps. Can't remember who did the second pic (as I did the first) but credits for him...

[Funnybear]

Even if you "feel" the Gs (don't put apostrophe there. "G's" is wrong)

Actually I think 'Gees' is the correct grammatical usage and if so be the case then G's might be also correct as it is a shortening. But then with any English your way could be equally correct depending on your school of thought. Just wanted an arguement, but I seem to be argueing myself. 'Tis normally the case.

[Blowtus]

Debating whether LFS is realistic or not is useless. Stop wasting precious time and go do some laps in a go-kart (a real go-kart. not the MRT).

Why is it useless? One of the reasons I enjoy motorsport (participating, not spectating) is an appreciation / understanding of the physics involved, and how my actions fit in with those constraints. Understanding where LFS gets it wrong is of interest to me, much the same way understanding how the poor head design of my bike affects it's running is, etc. Knowing where LFS is wrong would seem to be part of the task of fixing it. No doubt Scawen understands the consensus opinion by now, but if none of these threads ever appeared, one wonders if he'd have as much reason to be looking at the physics, or would improve them as easily.

[ajp71]

I think everyone has missed one very large point, these are not standard road cars. A lot could be down to the suspension/diffs that are being used which while they may be faster when driven correctly are less stable. No real road based racing cars are usually setup to be this unstable, the fastest way to set a RWD car is still towards a slight understeer.

[XCNuse]

how real is LFS?

well to be honest, i'd have to say its not that real.. but its not the games fault, theres a huge difference from playing a game, from actually going outside and taking a drive.. its like those jetski games and skiing and snowboarding and skateboarding games.. the 'physics' of the game may be real and if done in life would work out the same way, but its totally different from actually going outside and doing it, but to be honest i think LFS has a far way to go before it can be considered 'real'

[Blowtus]

the thing with jet ski / snowboard / other games, is that you can't accurately simulate them because a huge part of the discipline is body movement. The drivers body movement really has no effect in a car, it's all about the movement of the controls, so it can be much more easily simulated...

[XCNuse]

but its still the same effect, you cant really understand what hte car is doing without feeling it.. its like riding a bike in life, and then riding a bike on some random game.. it just wont be hte same no matter what

[Blowtus]

I disagree... you don't feel exactly the same things, but I don't find it any more difficult to understand what the car is doing. The effects may never be the same, but they never are between different cars anyway.

[george_tsiros]

I agree with XCNuse.

It's the entire act, not just the wheel-turning and the pedal-pushing.