Need advice on FOX (replay inside)

[ScarySquirrel]

hello, had S2 about a month now, and love it, but am getting closer and closer to just jacking it in because im not enjoying it anymore because i feel like im not getting better anymore, if anything im getting worse.

here is a replay from me on blackwood, its just me driving about, my PB is high 1:11 something, but it would be pointless showing you perfect laps from me, as i hardly ever do them.

the problem i have is that on certain corners i feel like the car slides WAY too much, i hold off the throttle but its annoying that everyone else can go round these corners about 10mph faster.

i know my lines are in consistent but thats because the car is all over the place the whole time, can anyone offer some pointers.

i have only just started using manual gears as well btw.
I know people will say "just practice" but im finding myself getting more and more annoyed as i lose the backend on the same bloody corners everytime (the worse being the one you see at the end of the reply, 2 out of 10 times ill spin there)

thanks in advance

EDIT: also, i just watched the WR replay, and it really annoyed me, his car sticks to the track i swear, he goes round the corners flying and he doesnt slide at all, i really dont understand

[TSXautoXer]

I don't know if I am good enough to say this, but how about this: finish braking earlier and get on gas through the corner. That'll stabalize the car and you'll get more speed at the straightaways. I think just generally speaking, you carry too much speed into the corner entry, and thus you need to do some balancing work on the exit, that sacrifices a lot of straight line speed.

Hope it helps.

[Vendetta]

From the sound of your post, try adding some downforce. Also, the setup i got from most people for that track was EXTREMELY slidey. It sucked. I attached a setup that i found the best to control. I forget the name of the guy i got it from, but he seemed content with me sending it to other people.

[Blowtus]

spend some time learning to set the car up to your liking. if the rear is sliding out, a few things can help. lower accel value on lsd (high values aren't very important in the fox because it's so low powered and grippy) less rear roll bar, lower rear tyre pressure, more rear camber, more rear downforce.
A setup you can drive well will get you far better times and consistency than a setup someone else is fast with. You should be able to get into the 1:10's at least without a setup that's hard to drive.

[ScarySquirrel]

thanks for the help guys, ok ill test that set out, appreciate that. Also ill have a look into learning how to setup a car myself, its just one thing ive never been good at in driving games, im sur ei can find a guide though.

about finishing braking earlier, surely if i do that ill carry more speed into the corner?

[AndroidXP]

about finishing braking earlier, surely if i do that ill carry more speed into the corner?To finish breaking earlier you also have to start braking earlier ;)

The purpose of this is two things:
1) You don't do as much tailbraking (which provokes oversteer).
2) You follow the principle of slow in, fast out.

It's generally faster to come into a corner relatively slow, but then exit it fast and stable. See, the important thing is not speed at corner entry, its the straight after the corner. Having a fast exit can change the laptime by seconds, having a fast entry by at best tenths of seconds, if not making you slower because of crappy exit.

[Gentlefoot]

1:11 is a pretty quick time mate! Not bad at all for 1 months practice. Just keep racing that circuit, have fun and you'll keep knocking little bits off that PB of yours without even trying.

[tristancliffe]

Well, a number of things stood out at me.

At T1, change down earlier and use the gearbox to help slow you down. Your line isn't bad through there, but as you put the throttle on you've got to let the car move around a bit underneath you - it's hard to explain, and hard to do, but the power oversteer can set you up nicely for the chicane.

In the chicane, you really can do it flat quite easily (with most setups), just let the car move a bit and don't try to fight it too much. That just unsettles the car.

In T3 you're braking in the right area, but you're not committed enough. You've got to turn in and then hold the car on the throttle to balance it. Again, it'll come with time and trust in the car.

Esses: I always take quite a wide entrance, and try not to go below 90mph. Again, I can be on the power quite early to balance the car.

Turn 6 - I think this is the hardest corner on blackwood. You've got to brake deceptively early (about 65m from memory) and turn in quite early. It's off camber on the entrance and can kick the back out very quickly. Smoothness off the brakes and onto the steering is the key here. Once you're on the apex you can be hitting full throttle again and let the car walk to the outside grasscrete.

Turn 7 - I lift/dab the brakes just after the pale patch of tarmac on the left ends, and turn in pretty much at the same time in either 4th or 5th. If you turn in too early I find you can just steer less to compensite and the slightly iffy mid corner line that causes is corrected by the uphill exit and the steep but relatively safe kerb on the exit.

Basically, don't correct every little squirm the car does, and don't be tempted to let off the throttle for those squirms either. With power and speed the car has got a cast amount of grip and balance.

This is my setup I use (and used during Vixen Challenge) and a quick replay I just did. It's the first time I've played LFS in a while after my 'time' with rFactor, and I must say LFS is heaven. Not too much grip, not too little. Can feel the car moving, not just sliding, but the tyres stretching underneath you. The FFB is lovely and subtle without rFactors cannedness. It's good to be back. And I wasn't too disappointed with my time in the end, although I thought I'd lost it in the last turn :S

[Hyperactive]

EDIT: also, i just watched the WR replay, and it really annoyed me, his car sticks to the track i swear, he goes round the corners flying and he doesnt slide at all, i really dont understand

What I look from WR replays are the braking points, sometimes the lines when I'm unsure and the points when they get on full throttle on corner exit. That chicane at blackwood is great example of right acceleration technique. Also checking the speeds they have at corners can help you do almost the same.

Some corners take courage to take them as fast they sould, like the chicane or the 2 last corners at blackwood. I'd suggest you look the WR replay again, with looking at those small details and trying to remember them and learn why it works. :)

[Jakg]

Well, a number of things stood out at me.

At T1, change down earlier and use the gearbox to help slow you down. Your line isn't bad through there, but as you put the throttle on you've got to let the car move around a bit underneath you - it's hard to explain, and hard to do, but the power oversteer can set you up nicely for the chicane.

In the chicane, you really can do it flat quite easily (with most setups), just let the car move a bit and don't try to fight it too much. That just unsettles the car.

In T3 you're braking in the right area, but you're not committed enough. You've got to turn in and then hold the car on the throttle to balance it. Again, it'll come with time and trust in the car.

Esses: I always take quite a wide entrance, and try not to go below 90mph. Again, I can be on the power quite early to balance the car.

Turn 6 - I think this is the hardest corner on blackwood. You've got to brake deceptively early (about 65m from memory) and turn in quite early. It's off camber on the entrance and can kick the back out very quickly. Smoothness off the brakes and onto the steering is the key here. Once you're on the apex you can be hitting full throttle again and let the car walk to the outside grasscrete.

Turn 7 - I lift/dab the brakes just after the pale patch of tarmac on the left ends, and turn in pretty much at the same time in either 4th or 5th. If you turn in too early I find you can just steer less to compensite and the slightly iffy mid corner line that causes is corrected by the uphill exit and the steep but relatively safe kerb on the exit.

Basically, don't correct every little squirm the car does, and don't be tempted to let off the throttle for those squirms either. With power and speed the car has got a cast amount of grip and balance.

This is my setup I use (and used during Vixen Challenge) and a quick replay I just did. It's the first time I've played LFS in a while after my 'time' with rFactor, and I must say LFS is heaven. Not too much grip, not too little. Can feel the car moving, not just sliding, but the tyres stretching underneath you. The FFB is lovely and subtle without rFactors cannedness. It's good to be back. And I wasn't too disappointed with my time in the end, although I thought I'd lost it in the last turn :Sa. find that when using the in car view the steering wheel covers up the gear indicator, meaning i often end up in neutral, which is quite annoying! and in t7 i always find that i take it to easybecause im used to driving the XRT around here!

[AndroidXP]

Just watched your replay and I can fully agree with tristan. Full throttle through the first chicane is pretty important, try to go as far right as possible over the first right curb, that makes not stepping in the sand on the second right curb way easier. T3 has a good bunch of potential (apply throttle earlier!), as has the next chicane. Maybe try the 4th on the latter... the 5th seemed a bit low (if you go faster 5th may be good enough)? Finally, on T6 use the grass strip.

I dunno your settings, but for downforce I use 9° front and 15° back, my current PB is 1:10.00, after 160 laps. A high enough rear wing especially helps for the fast corners.

Personally I still hate T1, it's very easy to lose your end there on corner exit. The rest is second nature, after I learned that just stepping from the gas is enough for some corners :D

[tristancliffe]

a. find that when using the in car view the steering wheel covers up the gear indicator, meaning i often end up in neutral, which is quite annoying! and in t7 i always find that i take it to easybecause im used to driving the XRT around here!

I don't think I even use 2nd on a lap, let alone 1st, so hitting neutral for me (no h-shifter) isn't gonna happen.

XRT is great round T7 - get it right and you can be on full throttle well before the apex and not break traction.

[ScarySquirrel]

wow really appreciate all the input guys, best gaming community i have come accross.

i had a quick go before work this morning, and really noticed a difference with that set that Vendetta gave me, it felt like it stuck to the road more, and i got a new PB, low 1:11 i think it was, although its not consistent. It feels at the moment that there is a bit too much understeer but ill have a play with it all.

thanks for the info on all the turns tristan thats really helpful, and again ill try your set out and see how it goes, just about to go on and have some fun :)

cant say it enough, thanks for all the help

EDIT: just got 3 new PB's in 3 laps in a row, ended up with a 1:10 something, well chuffed, just had to quit so as i seemed incapable of completing a lap without spinning, so punched the monitor and quit

[Hyperactive]

EDIT: just got 3 new PB's in 3 laps in a row, ended up with a 1:10 something, well chuffed, just had to quit so as i seemed incapable of completing a lap without spinning, so punched the monitor and quit

Heh, pretty similar what I do when I'm trying to learn a new combo. First 10 laps I'm all over the place ready to explode and kill...(then find myself locked in the cellar... :D). Then if I just continue, my next laps will be awful, but then suddenly it gets better. Suddenly I can steadily drive good laps near my pb all the time. Luckily I don't like hotlapping otherwise I would be pissed all the time when playing LFS :)

Congrats for your new pb :)

[dzac]

Hi !

Please tell me what "The WR Replay" is !
I want to know ! Give me a link !! :)))
Thx !

[ScarySquirrel]

World Record Replay

http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=46&w=1

Thats the direct link to it, but you can access them for all cars/tracks on LFSW.

[dzac]

thank you, i appreciate your fast reply very much !

[dzac]

i dont get it, the link you gave me is the wr for another car, isn't it ?
i'm i totaly fool ? :]

[AndroidXP]

You're right, I think he meant that one (http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=74&w=1)

E: Uhh, as a demo user, can you actually view those replays?

[TaiFong]

Luckily I don't like hotlapping otherwise I would be pissed all the time when playing LFS :)


Whenever I hotlap I always get a little heated. And sometimes "a little heated" is an understatement! What's worse is that I'm still far too slow. :D

[dzac]

thanks for the correct link !
yes, i can, even as a guest you can.

[AndroidXP]

thanks for the correct link !
yes, i can, even as a guest you can.
No, I meant like, view them in LFS :)

[bbman]

I tried to watch a replay of GTR's once back in my demo days, and it didn't worked... If nothing has changed with the patches he still shouldn't be able to watch replays of licensed cars as a demo racer...

[Vilante 11]

I hate to hijack a thread like this but I hope you don't mind Scray.....

I was mucking around with the FOX at Greenwood a day before you posted this thread. After reading through everyone's advice and watching Tristans replay and downloading his set up I was able to take 5 seconds from my lap times in 4 laps!! I really wasn't giving the FOX the credit it deserved, it has soooo much grip. Much more work to go but I thought I'd share my success so far and thank you all for helping out :D

[tristancliffe]

Pleasure (no really it was, if you read that bit about coming back to LFS after rFactor you'll see that doing those 3 ish laps (and a few out-takes :S) was actually brilliant fun!)

[ScarySquirrel]

sorry for the wrong link, i keep getting the FXO and FOX mixed up....oooops

glad this thread helped Vilante.

Im now consistently getting 1:11s which is great (still with a few spins)
but im enjoying it alot more, still punching stuff when i crash, but im like that in everygame, not good really how games make me so angry :|

[tristancliffe]

sorry for the wrong link, i keep getting the FXO and FOX mixed up....oooops

glad this thread helped Vilante.

Im now consistently getting 1:11s which is great (still with a few spins)
but im enjoying it alot more, still punching stuff when i crash, but im like that in everygame, not good really how games make me so angry :|

Why not post a replay of your current skills? Then we can suggest improvements based on that. I would really like to get you into the regular 10's, and I see no reason (based on your willingness to learn) why we can't get the odd high 9 out of you with a bit of time.

[ScarySquirrel]

ok let me go run a few laps, gimme 5-10 mins

[ScarySquirrel]

wow that sessions pissed me off, got a few 1:11s had ALOT of crashes.....but i did get a 1:10. lap 1 of attached, the other laps on there are useless.

my problem is consistency atm.

My major problem atm is T1, on the exit i spin so many times, and if i hold back i feel im losing time, its doing my head in. Also after the long straight, i have been in 4th going round that turn and the chicane, should i be in 5th, i tried it once and it seemed a little quicker, although in 4th it feels i have more control of the car

[Blowtus]

how much accel dif locking do you have? drop it down if you're having trouble with throttle spins at low speed.

[Vilante 11]

My major problem atm is T1, on the exit i spin so many times, and if i hold back i feel im losing time, its doing my head in.

I have the same problem there but I think I can be smoother and get a better line with practice.

[AndroidXP]

Yeah, the T1 exit seems to be a purely skill based section. You simply have to get the feel how much you can push and no amount of setup haxing is going to help you here. Your mind plays tricks on you, too. You already see a little straight or a a light bend and think you can floor it right now, but boy that inclination change ruins your day shortly after.

However, in online races it's better to lose some time there by going safe, instead of losing 5 places due to a spin. Personally, I don't do hotlapping at all - it seems a bit pointless to me (a good hotlap doesn't make you win races). Actually, I'm ususally faster w/o the "hotlap" mode, because I don't always think about "be careful, don't touch any objects, don't spin, .... etc etc" - thinking makes you slower.

[ScarySquirrel]

i only do hotlap for replay purposes, even if i touch the ground ill carry on, not bothered about whether its valid or not

[MrGrumpy]

This thread's great.

I too have knocked over a second off my PB (mid 1:10s now) with Tristan's tips and set. However, I'm not consistent now - I keep spinning on T1/T2 as well. Now I don't know yet if it's the setup or me just pushing harder - I'm going to try my old set again and see the difference. (But not until tomorrow night now due to work. Booo. :( )

Thanks guys...

[tristancliffe]

On campus at the moment so I can't watch that replay Squirrel, but I will when I get home (which may be earlier than I expected as the computers I need to use here on campus are all taken - damn my crappy uni and it's stupid systems).

Am pleased that several people have benefitted from my set and advice, and I am more than willing to (within reason) help others too.

T1 at Blackwood is hard yes. As for putting on the power you've got to be very gentle with the throttle and be ready to unwind the lock (and apply opposite) very quickly. To start with it might be worth lowering the power side of the diff, but don't go too far as it will cause problems in the high speed corners later in the lap - inside wheel wheelspin and what have you.

If you are only struggling there, try using a higher gear in T1 and see if your first sector times improve (or just become more consistent). I'll have a look at the replay and I'll have a think about how I exit T1 a bit later. I don't think I do anything special I can tell you, but most of my driving is instinctive and actually analysing what I'm doing isn't the easiest task.

[tristancliffe]

Okay, watched it (first thing I did when I got back).

Lets discuss your quick lap:

Could save a bit of time by trail braking into T1 - that is turning in before you've come off the brakes, but only steering more as you brake less. Not the easiest of things to learn, but it's worth trying (and is useful in any car at many tracks).

On the exit you were okay - could probably use a smidgen more power on that lap, but it's a fine line between grip and slip. The main thing was that you ruined your line into the chicane, which meant you had to lift (I think you could have just got away without a lift, but then I wasn't driving :)). Your line on the second lap there was better. Not lifting means you leave the chicane slightly faster, and by the end of the straight that extra speed can add up to a considerable amount - like 0.2 seconds.

Into T3 you were okay - I use 4th myself a lot of the time as it seems to control the back a bit more, although 5th is faster. Good line all the way through.

In the Esses you did well - resisting the urge to lift when you used both kerbs. I'd try to use a bit less of both kerbs - the first one has a steeper inner section that can throw the car into oversteer, whilst the second kerb (via oversteer) just scrubs of speed - can cost 0.15 seconds there alone.

Turn 6 is (imo) the hardest corner, and you took it well if a bit conservatively. I think you can take it at 90mph and you were 5mph below that iirc. Might not sound much, but the difference between a 1m10 and a 1m9 is all in the petty details. Good line though.

Last turn - very good, although I can almost hear you hold your breath through there. Little lift was perfect. If you're very brave (and a bit lucky) you can just do that turn flat I think, or at the most briefly going to 50% throttle.

Watch your lines down the back straight and the start-finish straight too. Take the shortest line in both if you can, as you'll cover SLIGHTLY less ground = quicker :D

As for your consistency I think it's more concentration based - you seem to forget to brake at the right moment, or do something as if you've drifted off. But thats only from watching a replay, so I apologise if you didn't think you're weren't concentrating.

My Braking points (from memory)
T1 = 100m board
T3 = start of kerb on left
T6 = 60m I think (just before 50m board)

It's not worth trying to brake later than this (well, you can go a bit deeper into T1 but I find it makes the exit even harder). Braking earlier is quicker than braking later, so if in any doubt just brake 2 or 3 m earlier.

[ScarySquirrel]

you are a legend tristan, thanks for all that advice.

i know what you mean about T6, i always go through it thinking i coul dhave been faster, and the last turn sometimes it nicely kicks you into it, others not so nice.

ill keep practicing though based on that advice and perhaps come back on here with some more replays in a week or so and see what else could possibly done.

many thanks

[AndroidXP]

Whee, I just made my first few hotlaps ever, new PB (1:09.73) (http://www.lfsworld.net/?win=hotlaps&whichTab=details&racer=AndroidXP) :D
I ruined it a bit on the T7, tho.

E: Wahoo, 1:09.49 1:09.37 1:09.19 :p

[Vilante 11]

Silly question but is there a way to see what your best time is on a certain track in a certain car?

[Vilante 11]

Either visit http://www.lfsworld.net/ or - in game - if you're on the circuit and in the car, type "/w pb" in chat (without the quotes).


Thank you very much mate!! :)

[P5YcHoM4N]

No, I meant like, view them in LFS :)
No you can't.

I just tried to watch a replay of my doing a few laps in a LX4 (had to format so game unlocked and I've spent them all XD), it says it cannot load the car.

[MrGrumpy]

OK, here's a lap of mine - I've gone back to my old setup and tried to take on board the tips.

I know I missed the apex on T3, but I don't know of any other mistakes?

Thanks for looking :)

Paul

[AndroidXP]

Ok, watched your replay, mostly you "just" have to get cleaner and smoother through the corners. :thumb: Compared it to my (far from perfect) hotlap, and these are the results:

1) Your setup clearly has more downforce, so the twisty stuff is the most important to you, yet I take many corners faster or equally fast.

Some numbers (A = me, G = you):


-- Max speed
A 226 km/h
G 222 km/h

-- Minimum corner speed (km/h)
T1 T3 T4 T6 T7 Avg.
A 88 150 156 146 161 140.2
G 98 140 157 141 161 139.4

-- Split times
Split1 Split2 Finish
A 0:23.82 0:49.81 1:09.49
G 0:24.28 0:50.87 1:10.64

-- Sector times (seconds)
Sec1 Sec2 Sec3
A 23.82 25.99 19.68
G 24.28 26.59 19.77

Diff +0.46 +0.60 +0.09


2) On T1, you were a whooping 10km/h faster through the turn, but in the end, you were still slower. Why? Ever heard of the principle: "slow in, fast out"? ;) While you came through the bend way quicker, I accellerated earlier and didn't drift so much to the outside of the corner. It looked like you were fighting quite a bit.

3) In the chicane, you have to go a bit more right on entering, or you will hit the middle curb too hard. You lost quite some speed there (which is most important for the long straight, even more important because you have higher DF). At the last curb you had some 155ish km/h while I was already at 160+

4) Your worst mistake was clearly T3 and it cost you alot of time. Some part of the slower sector 2 time was surely caused by the lower max speed (which was also caused by the chicane curb hopping), but T3 was killer.

5) T4 was quite OK, but you could still go faster there (heh, easy saying). I remember when I used my setup with +1° more front/back wing than now, I was able to go through there with minimum 160. You have probably even more or atleast equal DF so you should also manage more than now.

6) T6 could've been taken a good chunk faster, 150 should've been possible. But this is probably the hardest corner after T1 exit, so all you can really do there is practice practice and then practice some more. Personally I found it easier to brake very closely before 50m rather than at 60m because at 60m I'd always turn in too early and hit the curb like an idiot :shy:

7) T7 was again quite ok, but like I said, with that DF you have the potential to go through there quite a bit faster.


Summarized, it was already a good & competitive lap (besides T3, ugh *g*) but it's just the small things that add up.

:)

[tristancliffe]

Android is now officially faster than me, so he can take over in here...

*passes the buck*

[AndroidXP]

:D

Just to add for MrGrumpy: I've test-driven your setup for about 10 laps and the best I've managed so far is 1:09.98, so the setup definitely has some potential.

Wahoo, 1:09.37 with my setup :nana:

[MrGrumpy]

Wow. Thanks for the time you've obviously put in there.

I'll knock off some wing, and focus on the slow in, bit :) and practice 'til the burning smell coming from my wheel gets too much :Looking_a

Thanks again mate.

Paul

[AndroidXP]

Another thing, I may have exxagerated/overestimated the importance of the slow T1 a bit. On my last PB I did drive through there much more like you did on your lap and I wasn't slower at all, but it seemed way more risky and on the edge. The chicane still remains very important though, so no matter how you take T1, the chicane has to be perfect or you lose quite some time.

Oh and yes, removing a bit of wing may be a good idea, not for online races, though ;)

E: Ahhahahahah 1:09.19

[ScarySquirrel]

can i try your set Android?

[AndroidXP]

Actually, the last PB was driven with Csimpok's setup (modified by Biohazard) (http://setupfield.teaminferno.hu/?p_section=setupdetails&p_config_id=1&p_car_id=20&p_version=S2)

The ony change I made was +1° to rear wing :)

[ScarySquirrel]

i hate this f*****g game, i cant even complete a bloody lap now without spinning these stupid cars that feel like their on ice. so fed up with it. if it carries on liek this im just gonna delete the bloody thing and sell my wheel

[Vilante 11]

i hate this f*****g game, i cant even complete a bloody lap now without spinning these stupid cars that feel like their on ice. so fed up with it. if it carries on liek this im just gonna delete the bloody thing and sell my wheel

You really are scary :)

I'm sure it will come with practice....

[AndroidXP]

i hate this f*****g game, i cant even complete a bloody lap now without spinning these stupid cars that feel like their on ice. so fed up with it. if it carries on liek this im just gonna delete the bloody thing and sell my wheel
Whoa there buddy, sometimes you just hit a mind barrier where nothing will work and the driving will be crap. Just give it a day or two and then try again. I also noticed during my driving: the more desperate I got, the slower I was.

Stay cool, think "In the next lap I'll start my fast one" and just drive. Looking ahead, where you want to go, also helps to not make it a sucky lap.

[ScarySquirrel]

sorry i was really stressed out last night.
i live with my sister and she was asleep so i couldnt shout, so i had to let it out somewhere :)

ill keep trying

[Blowtus]

you really don't sound like you have a temperament suited for hotlapping... it's a fairly frustrating way to play lfs. Why don't you do some leagues / racing instead of worrying so much about times???

[Darkone55]

I just watched your replay, maybe I can help (I do 1:08 quite easily :P).

First, your rear tyres are not warm enough. Wheelspin at the start will help.

Then, you turn in very early at about every corner. Turn in just a bit later.
And you need to go through the corners a lot faster. I see you got problems on the exits. Don't let your wheel hang in 1 position through the whole corner. At the exit, try to aim a bit more to the outside of the track, use more kerbs.

And if that still doen't work, try to drive through the corners where you got problems in a higher gear, so when you change gears you don't spin that fast. And if even that doesn't help, add more rear wing.

Good luck.