Round 5: Pre-Race Discussion

[DeadWolfBones]

Hello drivers!

Here's the layout for the 5th round of the series at Westhill International.

Rules adjustments are described here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=834600#post834600) and changes can be seen in full here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=670983#post670983).

See you in two weeks!

[dktoben]

Grrrr, why do you put a race when i am on holiday ?

Good race to all of you, I'll figure out a way to follow it !

[DeadWolfBones]

It's also on a weekend when I'm moving, as is the July race. Poor job of foreseeing the future on my part! :D

[Gil07]

Ben, can you please remove that double line at pit exit? I keep getting DTs because it's very confusing which line is the pit exit line :(

[DeadWolfBones]

You understand why it's there, right?

[Gil07]

Yes, for waiting at the red light ;) But still, i don't think all those lines are needed, it's not like Hamilton drives in the IGTC...

[Scott_Michaels]

Lol, I think you badly underestimate the common sense of this field once the adrenaline starts flowing :D

Still, I've asked for something to be done about the double line too. I suggested changing the colour of one of the lines but apparently that was unnecessary or something.

[burnsy1882]

not able to change the color of the line. LFS allows only white.

[DeadWolfBones]

Yes, for waiting at the red light ;) But still, i don't think all those lines are needed, it's not like Hamilton drives in the IGTC...

If this is the majority opinion, I'll be glad to remove them.

[Gil07]

If you don't remove them, can you at least try to make it a bit more obvious where the pit exit line is? :shy:

[DeadWolfBones]

I'll certainly have a look, if it goes that way.

[AppiePils]

I'll certainly have a look, if it goes that way.

I certainly think it goes that way :P

[Scott_Michaels]

If you can't change the colour, how about making it a zig-zag or dotted/dashed line?

[DeadWolfBones]

I certainly think it goes that way :P

2 of 29 teams have requested it be changed (or 3, if this is you requesting it?). Pretty far from a consensus yet. :)

[JasonL220]

i think i would be better to have to 2 lines in different styles, if possible

[DeadWolfBones]

I can try a crosswalk-style line (zebra stripes), but there aren't really a ton of different types of lines available in LFS.

[dktoben]

I'm very agreed.. It's pretty confusing, but if all know what they are for, shouldn't there be any reasons not to remove it!

But yes, atleast do something to make it diffrent from the "real" one! :D

[DeadWolfBones]

Ok, I made a slight alteration to the version on the IGTC server. Anyone who wants to can connect and take a look, see if it's any better.

[Scott_Michaels]

Looks like there's just one line now, which elimintates the confusion, but also means that we now don't have much of a waiting line (whether thats a bad thing obviously depends on whether you think you need one).

[DeadWolfBones]

One line?

On the server, it looks like this:

[BenjiMC]

As you go over the lines it can be difficult to see from a drivers perspective, i'd suggest bringing the SC line back more and going over the pit exit line to make it a bit more bold.

[Scott_Michaels]

Yeah, from the cockpit i could only see the thick line, didn't notice the thin one after it. Might want a bigger gap between them.

[BigTime]

I just went to the server and there is nothing confusing about that layout. As far as I'm concerned great job Ben, works fine for me.

Edit: The newest version is easier to see, nice work.

[DeadWolfBones]

Ok, new version with a bigger gap and arrows telling you when to go. :tilt:

[dktoben]

Ok, new version with a bigger gap and arrows telling you when to go. :tilt:

Hmm, it can't go wrong now, and if goes we really have desirved a DT :D

[Scott_Michaels]

Hmm, it can't go wrong now, and if goes we really have desirved a DT :D
Agreed :D

[Gil07]

Fantastic and idiot-proof now :)

[DeadWolfBones]

Whew!

[AppiePils]

Whew!

Told you I was right :X

[Lotesdelere]

Maybe update the file from the first post now ? :)

[DeadWolfBones]

Done.

[DeadWolfBones]

Rules changes have been posted in the Rules thread. :thumbsup:

[R.Kolz]

Still thinking about the car who got hit under a SC period and resultning in spectate mode and "End of this Race" for this very team here a proposal:


L. DISCONNECTS

1) If a driver is disconnected, that driver’s team may rejoin the race. The IGTC tracker will continue to calculate the team’s total laps and place them accordingly in the standings.
1.1) Drivers who disconnect will be credited with the last lap completed prior to the disconnect.


M. DNFs
1) DNFs will result from:Exiting the racing area (either stranded outside the fence or “took the wrong route”)

Why not treat the " took the wrong route " - " spec mode " like a disconnection?

More realistic and more fun for the teams. A poss. 4 weeks preparation shouldn´t end like seen before.

To give you a picture of what I mean here: Go AS3 and brake late before the chicane ( 1st split ) and push a car in front of you slightly. The car in front will go through the tire barrier there and prob. see itself in specate mode after 20 meters....

IRL this car would reverse and continue racing. True ?

I see this stranding in spectate mode as a LFS error more or less and it should be treated like another LFS error, the disconnection, only.

[srdsprinter]

I think I agree with what you are saying here, but unfortunately I don't think you can put the discrepancy of the type of wrong route having different pentalties/consequences.

The track is the same for everyone, and the boundaries are the same for every team.

[banshee56]

To give you a picture of what I mean here: Go AS3 and brake late before the chicane ( 1st split ) and push a car in front of you slightly. The car in front will go through the tire barrier there and prob. see itself in specate mode after 20 meters....

IRL this car would reverse and continue racing. True ?


Going through tire barriers like that would either render a car disabled or so badly damaged that they would spend extraordinary amounts of time in the garage making repairs.

The scenario where drivers get pushed into the "out of bounds" area I think could be a scenario where the driver (or his team) can send a request for SC period while the admins review the replay and determine if they were pushed. The admins could allow the car to come back in the race, though several laps down, which could very well be close to real life. The same could be true for similar incidents during SC, where drivers seem to sometimes completely disregard how one should be driving in a league race.

But cases where you lose control and go out of bounds, even on lap 1, are all on the driver, regardless of whether he has prepared for 4 weeks or just 4 hours.

[joshdifabio]

Going through tire barriers like that would either render a car disabled or so badly damaged that they would spend extraordinary amounts of time in the garage making repairs.
I think the barrier he's referring to is a temporary tyre-wall. If you have a look in-game, you'll see that it wouldn't be enough to seriously damage a car but nevertheless can result in a 'wrong route' spectate.

[DeadWolfBones]

The real problem here is that the ratio of "pushed out of bounds" incidents to "catapulted out of bounds with horrific damage" incidents is incredibly low (or is it high? I'm bad at math). I can only recall (off the top of my head) two incidents this season where a car went out of bounds (S3R and UKCT @ FE3), and both were definitely retirements in terms of damage, if not entirely realistic ones (thanks, LFS physics model). I know how much you drivers hate it when we admins make judgment calls in the course of these races--picking and choosing which "wrong route" incidents are "ok" would definitely be judgment calls. To make them properly would require quite a bit of time to review replays and so on, and even then might result in some perceived injustice (they got to return, why didn't I?!), which as you can imagine we're keen to avoid.

In short, we're not comfortable with letting all "wrong route" incidents return to the race, and we're not comfortable with picking and choosing some to return. Ergo, "wrong route" = DNF.

[R.Kolz]

.. I know how much you drivers hate it when we admins make judgment calls in the course of these races--picking and choosing which "wrong route" incidents are "ok" would definitely be judgment calls...

Yes. But it IMO would impove the league. Good thing this "crashed into spec mode" is unlikely to happen next round at Westhill already.
Still I´m not happy the way the rules are now towards this point. Furthermore, reading through post-race comments, I see that other teams wouldn´t mind a rule change either. Give them a +5 laps penalty but let them stay in the race if it wasn´t their fault. This very rule needs a closer look at and I hope at some time enough admins/teams will see the need for it as well.

The rules allow for the admins to make judgment calls in such situations, and that's what we did....

Brings me to another question. That´s what you stated after last round. I miss a clear line here. Is it likely to see online rule changes again or can teams plan their races according to the written rules from now on?

.. To make them properly would require quite a bit of time to review replays and so on, and even then might result in some perceived injustice ..

This has always been the dilemma of making a online-race judgement call.

And from a TDRT point of view - I can´t see the news in it.:scratchch :smileypul :D

Still: IMO better to do it 7 times right and 3 times wrong then to do it 10 times wrong.

But, no need to talk about it anymore. I rest my case now as you´ve seen my proposal and and the end of the day admins decisions are final.

[R.Kolz]

I think the barrier he's referring to is a temporary tyre-wall. If you have a look in-game, you'll see that it wouldn't be enough to seriously damage a car but nevertheless can result in a 'wrong route' spectate.

That´s exactly what I ment. :)
And there are more examples of it to be found arround the various race tracks.

[DeadWolfBones]

Brings me to another question. That´s what you stated after last round. I miss a clear line here. Is it likely to see online rule changes again or can teams plan their races according to the written rules from now on?

Teams should always plan their strategies around the rules. It's always our goal not to do everything in our power not to have to make these sorts of calls. It's why our rulebook is so long and detailed. That said, if another instance comes up where the rules don't properly cover a situation, we do reserve the right to make judgment calls.

(Incidentally, and please don't take this as an attack because it's not, I think the TDRT incident last round is sort of a red herring re: "planning your race around the rules." You were involved in an accident, had massive damage, and had to pit whether the SC was 1 lap, 2, or had there been no SC at all, which very well could have been the case. There wasn't really any strategy involved at all in your decision to pit. But this is not to say that a decision like the one we made couldn't have caught a team out, were they pitting for strategy and were the SC period at some point other than the 10 minute mark of the race. Yours is a valid point to make, just not really with regard to your particular situation.)

[R.Kolz]

Teams should always plan their strategies around the rules. It's always our goal not to do everything in our power not to have to make these sorts of calls. It's why our rulebook is so long and detailed. That said, if another instance comes up where the rules don't properly cover a situation, we do reserve the right to make judgment calls.

Good to know. Thanks.

I know how much you drivers hate it when we admins make judgment calls in the course of these races--picking and choosing which "wrong route" incidents are "ok" would definitely be judgment calls.

See, here in this situation I´d very much wish to see you admin guys taking more action in an ongoing race to IMO get a better league.

There wasn't really any strategy involved at all in your decision to pit. But this is not to say that a decision like the one we made couldn't have caught a team out, were they pitting for strategy and were the SC period at some point other than the 10 minute mark of the race. Yours is a valid point to make, just not really with regard to your particular situation.)

Somehow true. Still. Teams IMO would appreciate it they knew if a SC is 1 laps or a time set or whatever your actual rules states instead of all other.

(Incidentally, and please don't take this as an attack because it's not, I think the TDRT incident last round is sort of a red herring re: "planning your race around the rules." You were involved in an accident, had massive damage, and had to pit whether the SC was 1 lap, 2, or had there been no SC at all, which very well could have been the case.

All I asked for was if teams are to prepare for live-rules changes, which you´re telling me now might be happening again. Thanks for clarifiying my confusion. I think have understood it now.

And you as well don´t take it as an offense:
You´re telling me, that TDRT was lucky to even get the SC out here? Well, without your ( so greatful about it.. ) your SC we´d ,as far as I can see it, still racing on a very last position, mayby having saved some few seconds.
But please let´s forget about this one and, if you admins care, instead of
focus on my original proposal - the " wrecked and beeing spec mode-race over proposal" instead of.

That´s all I´m asking for to, what I believe, make it a even better league.

Finally. I´m not angry about the decisions made by your admins last rounds. They are the past to me and I´m looking forward to the next rounds of IGTC.

[DeadWolfBones]

Understood. Your proposal is taken under consideration. :)

[banshee56]

I think the barrier he's referring to is a temporary tyre-wall. If you have a look in-game, you'll see that it wouldn't be enough to seriously damage a car but nevertheless can result in a 'wrong route' spectate.

Sorry for the late response, but I was referring to what would happen if a car went through a barrier like that in real life. I am well aware of which barrier this is and that most LFS cars don't get near the damage they should going though this kind of barrier. Nonetheless, I think the wrong route area in this situation is way too close to the barrier.

[srdsprinter]

Incompatible Test Patch Out Today.

Reminder: You don't want to apply this test patch to your primary LFS executable (or if you only have 1), as it will not be compatible for tomorrow's race!

Good Luck to everyone tomorrow!

[DeadWolfBones]

Indeed, thanks for that reminder, Stu.

When the test patch becomes the official patch, we will most likely begin using it for the IGTC. It may require some re-balancing, as it includes CoG adjustments for the GTR cars. We'll see about that when it's released.