FZ50 GT3 Cup: Suggestions [Archive]

Leprekaun

27th May 2008, 17:24

suspension is fixed too ;).

Well, after me and Benji (you're welcome to join in of course when we're on :)) try and sort out a good baseline setup, I'll post the new rules regarding restricted setups. According to what we were looking at, the only things in suspension that are adjustable are ride height, dampers (both bump and rebound) and ARB, leaving just the spring stiffness. We're thinking of using 250 Nm spring stiffness to simulate the real cars. We tested it last night, its not too bad really :). Dampers are hard to tune because you need to get them perfect or the car bounces too much or flies off.

Speedy Pro

27th May 2008, 20:33

Is the diff type also fixed, and will there be a different fixed set for each race? I'm asking b/c the gear ratios would need to be altered going from circuit to circuit.
Also, it may be a good idea to set a maximum brake force value to simulate real cars.

*As a clarification to the rules, there are no mandatory pitstops during the race, right?

BenjiMC

27th May 2008, 22:53

Speedy Pro

28th May 2008, 04:55

In real life the drivetrain is fixed and we have tested on BL1 and WE1 and i tested AS7 and it feels fine. Somehow porsche got pretty near perfect gearing...

I thought IRL teams are able to change gear ratios between races. Or perhaps that's just the higher classes of motor racing. Either way, if the setup works across the board, then that's great.

Leprekaun

28th May 2008, 08:33

In real life the drivetrain is fixed and we have tested on BL1 and WE1 and i tested AS7 and it feels fine. Somehow porsche got pretty near perfect gearing...

Downforce will be fixed, 4deg on the front and the rear can move between quite a big range i think.

From what i understand all the fixed values are:
Drivetrain
Spring rates - although new patch allows stiffer springs.
Front downforce
Brake pressure

Benji, is there any chance you could tell me where you found this information because I read the .pdf document (provided in the original thread) and theres nothing about the restricted downforce settings or dampers so I'd like to have a read through the document where you found this info :). According to rFactor, the front wing is restricted at 1 degree and I think the max you can set for the rear wing is 10. Reason why I'm using rFactor for reference because the PCC 2007 (http://rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=PCC%202007) mod was tested by one of the drivers of the PCC, Ralph Kalaschek so I'm sure he would've told them whats allowed to be adjusted and what isn't.

Correction: Rear wing max is 12

BenjiMC

28th May 2008, 13:08

Yeah, i said the front downforce was restricted, not the rear ;). As there is nothing secific about the front i guess it's not adjustable at all.

T20 Transmission

20.1. The gearbox ratios specified for Classes 997 and 996 A must be used. Class
996 B must use the original gear ratios. Factory approved Porsche GT3 Cup
upgrades are permitted.

Dampers cant be adjusted i found afte a re-read of the tech pdf.

T7 Shock absorbers/Springs

7.1. Only Sachs adjustable suspension struts in original condition as fitted at the
factory must be used for Type 996 from MY2002 to 2005 cars. MY2001 cars
must have suspension struts in original condition as fitted at the factory.
Approved factory upgrades are permitted. Type 997 from MY2005 to
MY2008 must be fitted with the original Sachs suspension dampers.
Alteration of the bump/rebound characteristics is prohibited.

Source
http://www.motorsport.org.nz/Pdf/0708%20GT3%20Tech%20Regs.pdf

Leprekaun

28th May 2008, 13:28

thanks Benji :). About the downforce bit, can you link to the document where you found it?

BenjiMC

28th May 2008, 13:34

Same document.

It's more an assumption based on the information given than solid facts.

T15. Rear Spoiler

15.1. The position of the rear spoiler profile may be changed within the prescribed
adjustment range for the model.

bbman

28th May 2008, 20:18

From what I've read in the tech spec pdf, diff preload is adjustable between 80-180 Nm...

Also, the damping seems very very soft for that spring frequencies, remember that the setups you took the average from use far softer springs, where you need softer damping...
If you look at the relative damping in VHPA, you'll see what I mean...

Also, there are quite a few threads where you list what values to use, and every one of them says something different...

Leprekaun

28th May 2008, 20:25

For reference to which values to use ;), check the setup restrictions topic here. I've stated two fixed suspension settings.

Dru

28th May 2008, 22:12

For reference to which values to use ;), check the setup restrictions topic here. I've stated two fixed suspension settings.

your setups are not consistant with the rules you have set :shrug:

Think you need to go proof check them m8 :thumb:

for instance in your normal set the added mass is at 25%

your rules say this must be a minimum of 37%

errors like this will come back at bite you. also the way you have explained it is poor. I would seperate out ALL the fixed criteria in one section. Then the 'minimum settings' in a onther, then finally 'free' section, that way it is clear as black and white and not open to 'interpretation'

Hope you see the constructive parts of this post :D

Regards,

Dru.

Dru

28th May 2008, 22:24

another point..

how are you going to scrutineer the wing levels and tyre pressures?

Afterall you say that people can submit setups after qualifying.

I could say for instance go out with low pressure front tyres and then do my hotlap then come into the pits before the end and change tyre pressures on next set to the legal limit.

Same goes for rear downforce (or front for that matter)

How will this be scrutineered??

mikey_G

28th May 2008, 23:05

There is this in insim:

struct IS_PIT // PIT stop (stop at pit garage)
{
byte Size; // 24
byte Type; // ISP_PIT
byte ReqI; // 0
byte PLID; // player's unique id

word LapsDone; // laps completed
word Flags; // player flags

byte Sp0;
byte Penalty; // current penalty value (see below)
byte NumStops; // number of pit stops
byte Sp3;

byte Tyres[4]; // tyres changed

unsigned Work; // pit work
unsigned Spare;
};

// Pit Work Flags

enum
{
PSE_NOTHING, // bit 0 (1)
PSE_STOP, // bit 1 (2)
PSE_FR_DAM, // bit 2 (4)
PSE_FR_WHL, // etc...
PSE_LE_FR_DAM,
PSE_LE_FR_WHL,
PSE_RI_FR_DAM,
PSE_RI_FR_WHL,
PSE_RE_DAM,
PSE_RE_WHL,
PSE_LE_RE_DAM,
PSE_LE_RE_WHL,
PSE_RI_RE_DAM,
PSE_RI_RE_WHL,
PSE_BODY_MINOR,
PSE_BODY_MAJOR,
PSE_SETUP,
PSE_REFUEL,
PSE_NUM
};

Although i dont know if it detects the things you can do in the f12 menu, what dru is pointing at.

Leprekaun

29th May 2008, 12:32

your setups are not consistant with the rules you have set :shrug:

Think you need to go proof check them m8 :thumb:

for instance in your normal set the added mass is at 25%

your rules say this must be a minimum of 37%

errors like this will come back at bite you. also the way you have explained it is poor. I would seperate out ALL the fixed criteria in one section. Then the 'minimum settings' in a onther, then finally 'free' section, that way it is clear as black and white and not open to 'interpretation'

Hope you see the constructive parts of this post :D

Regards,

Dru.

Yeah, sorry about that :shy:. I'll make sure to check the sets if I adjust the setup restrictions. Thanks for bringing up the point of changing setup in pit stops. Unfortunately, I have very poor knowledge of programming so I wouldn't be able to create an application to detect setup changes in pit stops so I'll try and think of something of how to scrutineer that.

Regarding tyre pressures, I'm aware that the fronts usually max out around 100 degrees (optimum all the time) while the rears can go up to 110-120. I'm going to do some testing tonight with Benji so will talk to him about how we can balance fix the tyre pressures problem.

As for the constant rule changes, I apologise for it but really, its hard to setup the FZR in general, let alone set it up to work with all tracks which is why, some rules are being adjusted. I'll post the sets with the updated rule changes so far in the Setup Restrictions topic.

About the clarity of whats restricted and whats not, honestly, I don't think theres much to it :). First part is restricted settings, 2nd part is adjustable settings ;).

R3DMAN

29th May 2008, 14:55

i would personally leave tyre pressures down to the driver, as different styles of driving mean different temps.

thus making it not fair on a driver with an agressive style, and someone like me who drives carefully mean cold tyres all the way through.

bbman

29th May 2008, 16:45

Leprekaun

29th May 2008, 17:03

I've tried softening the dampers by about 1 or 2 Ns but then the car either bounces on entry if you're going in fast or if going in slow for a fast exit, bounces on exit (literally bounces off the ground). One of the reasons why I'm considering the alternate suspension settings is because we have to note that the 260 N springs have been specifically set for the 911 GT3 Cup car, and not the FZR. They're similair but still, they're different enough for certain settings.

I'll be doing some more testing tonight. I would greatly appreciate it if a lot of you could attend as the more drivers racing, the more data I can gather and feedback. The set has to be somewhat neutral, if not a bit understeery to be well suited for most drivers.

bbman

29th May 2008, 20:29

Maybe I've worded it wrong: the dampers are way too soft already! No point in making them even softer...

lovretta

29th May 2008, 21:36

Hi guys! I like how far this idea of using RL set has made it :) I've also tried to do something about it, I think your rebound is too low, I would leave bump to something like 5-6 Rear and same for front, for the rebound I would set it to something like 17-18. Also try to "drop" the car while in garage, you will notice how it bounces alot. Then do this: increase tire pressure A LOT, it almost wouldn't bounce.
I didn't watch too many GT3 cup races for long time, but I don't remember any bouncing, this is probably due to GT3 cup RL tyres having stiffer sidewalls then LFS ones.

Onto the rFactor thing. I also tought of checking into PCC2007 mod about data; GSMF (modding team which created it) said that they got all car specs from a real team!
But again, just looking at rFactor's garage screen is I would saynot correct at all. PCC .hdv files needs to be checked. WHY?
Well, because, you cannot litteraly transfer values from rF to LFS.
Hmm it seems stupid, are you sure? I'm pretty much sure about it, because: in .hdv file you define what is the default amount of downforce generated, then you define steps how much is it increased when in garage and finally how many steps will be there.
So, values should be checked. I will do it tomorrow, since now I'm not at home, and I don't have anything installed over here.

Speedy Pro

1st June 2008, 22:22

I'm not sure where else to ask this, but are we supposed to use the same setup in races as in qualifying? Or there can be another set for qualifying (adjusting the allowable parameters, of course)?

R3DMAN

1st June 2008, 23:06

i think there are going to be 2 different ones.

Leprekaun

2nd June 2008, 09:33

Yes, 2 sets are permitted as long as they're within the setup restrictions.

Speedy Pro

3rd June 2008, 07:57

Just wondering, since there's a separate set for qualifying, would it be possible to allow F12 menu adjustments during the qualifying? So things like tire pressures, camber, rear wing angle, etc. I undertand that you (the admin) can see when somebody changes these parameters during a pitstop, but can you see what the new values are set to? If you cannot see the values, then just ignore this.

I'm asking is because real teams are able to (and often do) make small changes during the qual. session.

Leprekaun

3rd June 2008, 09:24

I will test out LFS Stats to see if it shows specific settings but afaik, it doens't, only states "setup work" and thats it. Will check now.

Dizzydarryn

3rd June 2008, 09:31

Lep, i had a try out with the sets last night and found the car very "interestin" to drive. the initial turn in was unbelievable but i found the car had alot of understeer when u tried to get on the power...

I assume we can make the changes to caster/toe and ARB to change this to suit our driving styles?

I played around with camber a little and found it made the front end turn in less aggressive which made it slightly easier to drive, especially for new drivers and longer race distance.

Has anyone tried playing around with toe's?

R3DMAN

3rd June 2008, 18:16

i did some testing with brake balance, setting it more to the rear seemed to help me abit.. but the rears overheated more. :lol: typical..

i was going to try some toe changes but i need to get my head around what effect they have again

BenjiMC

3rd June 2008, 21:19

When are you planning on finalising the base setup? since the race is in 1 week would be good to have a final version now.

I have attached one i tried making with the stiff springs and lots of damping to reduce the bouncing. not overtseery on entry like the last one and not understeery on exit either.

commandermas

4th June 2008, 11:37

it would be really great to know, which setup will be used in this cup, because the 2 settings are quite different.

Leprekaun

4th June 2008, 11:39

pearcy_2k7

4th June 2008, 12:22

Look at the rules again please, it says if i drive with a setup that doesnt obide the the restrictions i will receive a +2second penalty, now i can do low 1:07's on a normal set and im sure alot of others can racing too, so if i use say the WR setup and get a low 1.07 that mans i will then have a qually time of a low 1.09 which would most probably give me pole. Althought everyone should be trusted not to cheat im just bringing it to your attention. IMO driving with illegal setups should be put to the back of the grid as they are effectively disqualified as soon as they leave the pits.

Also i would like to suggest a 3 round knock-out qualifying where you get one lap to put in a time 1st round 20 advance 2nd round 10 advance 3rd round is qualifying for the top 10 all getting 1 lap each, and making drivers consistant on their qualifying lap, ive raced in a spec series with this before and it was very good.

Leprekaun

4th June 2008, 15:09

Well, if there will be someone whos getting a 1:07, that means that they're not running a restricted FZR and I will be enforcing restrictions through an InSim application that will monitor each car to see if they're using restrictions or no so if there car is anything below (also checks if its above) the restrictions, the driver will be kicked to spectate and as stated in the rules, won't be allowed to qualify any further. So quite simply, if a driver isn't running a restricted setup, the best that he will most likely be able to do is a mid-high 1:09 by which then their final time would be considered a mid-high 1:11.

Speedy Pro

4th June 2008, 16:58

So quite simply, if a driver isn't running a restricted setup, the best that he will most likely be able to do is a mid-high 1:09 by which then their final time would be considered a mid-high 1:11.

1:11 is still pretty quick. There probably will be people with legitimate setups going slower than this. Just sayin' :shrug:

pearcy_2k7

4th June 2008, 17:13

This is why i said just disqualify them. And they have to start from the rear of the grid.

bbman

4th June 2008, 17:37

I will test the super stiff set tonight on all of the league tracks to see if its acceptable. If it fails on more than one track (wheels lock up too easily, lots of bouncyness) then we will use the alternate.

May I suggest that the setup is NOT subject to your liking, but to proper investigation and logic? I don't think Porsche went to all tracks in the whole world to test if the car handles great on every single one...

Leprekaun

4th June 2008, 18:22

K, will change the rule to the back of the grid.

@bbman: its not about whether I like the setup or not, its about whether its driveable for all tracks or not. Porsche don't go every track to test, simply, because it would be very costly and difficult for them to do so so I'm sure they just calculate everything back at Weissach where they have detailed equipment and data of each track to make sure the car's suspension settings are realistic. Remember as well that they race on F1 tracks (silk smooth roads) so they don't exactly suffer from the issues of crazy jumping when it comes to a bump. I've watched these cars live when I was at Silverstone and they were fairly stable, except for a little bouncyness (I mean very little) when they went over kerbs.

I've tested the Benji's super stiff set and I'm sorry to say that it has failed for most of the tracks. At Blackwood, the car was very unpredictable and had HUGE amounts of oversteer on throttle. At Westhill, I felt like I was driving on ice, I had to be super careful not slide it into any of the fast corners. At Kyoto, it was acceptable although, at the exit of one or two corners it felt a bity hairy but it passed there. Also, it would pass at Kyoto GP as the car didn't seem to offer any suprises. At Fern Bay Black, it failed miserably. The car first of all couldn't go over ANY kerbs which are vital at a track like Fern Bay and it had the issue of understeering out then going into snap oversteer so was quite unpredictable. At South City, the car generally felt fine except for the fact that it kept jumping when it came to the bumps and was very tricky in some of the corners.

At this point, I decided to stop as it already failed 4 out of the 8 tracks so its not acceptable so I will be going with the alternate suspension settings. I'm sad to see it as the car was interesting to drive but being interesting and being raceable can sometimes be impossible.

Sorry Benji, I know you worked hard on the set :( but it just can't work for a lot of tracks.

Speedy Pro

4th June 2008, 19:20

Lep, the alternate setup is the softer one, right? I personally find it much much more drivable than any version of the one w/ 260 spring rates. The latter just bounces too much, no matter what the damping is set to.
Also to reiterate my question from another thread, do the adjustable tire pressures mean that there's no min. pressure any more (this is marked with (NEW) in the setup restrictions)?

Cheers,

Leprekaun

4th June 2008, 19:29

yes.

bbman

4th June 2008, 21:55

Porsche don't go every track to test, simply, because it would be very costly and difficult for them to do so so I'm sure they just calculate everything back at Weissach where they have detailed equipment and data of each track to make sure the car's suspension settings are realistic. Remember as well that they race on F1 tracks (silk smooth roads) so they don't exactly suffer from the issues of crazy jumping when it comes to a bump. I've watched these cars live when I was at Silverstone and they were fairly stable, except for a little bouncyness (I mean very little) when they went over kerbs.

I don't think kerbs in RL are smoother than what we have in LfS, do you? As for the bounciness, you obviously still haven't looked at the outputs in Bob's VHPA... I told you since the beginning that the dampers have to be harder in order to resist the high spring frequencies sufficiently... Try 9 kN/s F and 11.5 kN/s R bump and 12 kN/s F and 15.5 kN/s R rebound and watch all the bounciness go...

Another one of my points forever ignored - adjustability of diff preload, as stated in the Porsche GT3 Cup Tech Regs §20.5:
[...]The minimum locking torque of the differential is reached whenever the torque value is 80 Nm - measured at the gearbox driveshaft output flange. The maximum locking torque of the differential is reached whenever the torque value is 180 Nm - measured at the gearbox driveshaft output flange. Exceeding the maximum value is not permissible at any time during the event.