ASS article on wreckers

[The Moose]

I was really disappointed to read in the latest edition of AutoSimSport an article about wreckers that appears to indicate that CTRA has a problem with wreckers.

I quote
"Wreckers can even be found everywhere, as I said, even on the highly-rated CTRA servers in LFS. Even though they sometimes get reported, most just shrug, call them names (and get kicked off CTRA for it), and move on. Don't get me wrong, it's not CTRA’s fault they have a wrecker problem in some servers, it’s just the nature of things. When left alone and unsupervised, the wreckers crawl out of the woodwork and show their ugly faces."

it goes on to say
"CTRA is not much of a place for the serious racer nowadays. At least not in the tin-tops {haven't tested the open-wheel servers}. Where CTRA has a post-race report system, Race2Play has, at least, one live steward. Where CTRA has a somewhat forgiving first turn policy {or so it seems}, Race2Play has the first lap punt rule, resulting in a drive through. Guess where I do my racing these days? Yep.
And this has nothing to do with the ever-present pissing contest of sims. It's just a matter of where I get the best overall experience. If Race2Play starts to organize LFS races, I'll be a part of them faster than you can say, ‘My sim is better than yours.’.)"

That to me completely exaggerates the situation. How many proper wreckers have we seen in CTRA? Very few to my knowledge, certainly nothing to indicate CTRA has any sort of a wrecker problem:shrug:
I've been in Race 1 a few times recently and it's been very civilised :p
Of course you get the occasional crappy driver and very occasional (as far as i can tell) deliberate wrecker, but that article makes it sound like a free for all wreckfest.

Meh... i don't know what my point is other than my sadness in another piece of very sloppy (and untrue) journalism.

Magnus Tellbom, you should be ashamed of yourself.

[AndroidXP]

It's more like LFS in general has the lets call it "casual gamer problem", rather than blaming it on CTRA which is rather good for a server seeing such amounts of traffic.

But seriously, what more needs to be said than ASS.

[james12s]

i canot believe what i am reading, it is utter un researched and uninformed bull tbh

[dan12s]

yes it is !!!
ctra rules :nod:

[james12s]

i think its down to ass mainly being focused on like rfator etc were thing are mainly more serious were with lfs it ranges from ver serious to just joining a server and having fun, and from this angle i think they are blind to what its like in lfs and that,unlike some rfactor leauges/servers etc, your head isnt bited off for making a mistake, to me they are clasifying people who make mistakes as wreckers WRONG!!!!

[mkinnov8]

Its not so much that CTRA has a "wrecker problem" its LFS in general Can have a "wrecker problem".

The thing is, to outsiders the CTRA is associated with LFS, and so people tend to believe CTRA is part of LFS... its not, its a third-party addon, just like any other insim driven script. Fix the main LFS problem, and all will trickle down to all the additional organisations.

Its not an obvious problem, as people will claim to have never seen an actual wrecker on a S2 server, but the thing is, they do exist, and they are banned from most servers. But there will always be the one or two that get through.

I dont agree that its sloppy journalism, its a viewpoint which the author has had. But I think its.. not equal to compare Race2Play and CTRA to begin with.

[SamH]

I read it a few weeks ago, thought about it for a moment and just figured "ASS".

CTRA doesn't have live admin, but it's not a pay-to-play service. It's also important to remember that they've held a whopping 1,759 races (at time of writing). We've held 122,303. They've clocked up an astounding 28,000 race entries while we've only managed to muster just shy of 900,000. They've raced a stonking 820,000 laps. We've only cranked out, between us, a measly 7 million laps.

I'm afraid I have no idea what their reporting procedures are like. I only know what ours are like. I don't know if theirs is more or less comprehensive than ours, or if it's as transparent. I don't know if they have a downloadable replay of every single reported/upheld incident ever reported on their system, like we have on ours, nor do I know if their appeals system is as functional as ours, or if their determination to uphold real-racing standards compares at all with ours. I just know we got a bit of a knocking by Mr Tellbom in ASS. We didn't skip a beat ;)

[The Moose]

I dont agree that its sloppy journalism, its a viewpoint which the author has had.

Had he actually based his comments on facts rather than a possible bad 30mins on a server then i would agree, but stating "it's not CTRA’s fault they have a wrecker problem in some servers" is sloppy journalism because it's a load of made up tosh.

Still, he's proved he has the perfect qualifications for a job at the Daily Mail. ;)

Right, i'm off to trash a few unsuspecting drivers. I know a good hiding place by the bridge at Blackwood :p

[Bean0]

Right, i'm off to trash a few unsuspecting drivers. I know a good hiding place by the bridge at Blackwood :p

Antlers sticking out are a giveaway...keep your eyes out lads.

[BurnOut69]

Magnus has a tendency to write his own opinions as if they were the ultimate truth so I wouldnt take that article too seriously.

tbh, if he doesnt want to race in CTRA its his loss.

[james12s]

i dont know about the skills to write in the mail more like the skills to write in the sun

i think sam's post sums it up, the ctra hold more races has more people pass through its fingers, if you look at the percentage of wreckers to good honest racers it is tiny

[thisnameistaken]

Who reads ASS anyway? Shame on you.

CTRA doesn't have any worse driving standards than any other servers. They're not any better either, unfortunately, which brings into question whether the whole system is really worth the amount of effort required to run it, but given that I don't run it I'm not all that fazed by it. :p

[james12s]

on the lower servers driving standards are not nessiserily much better than other servers, the differance is that people have a means of reporting wrong doings of other drivers when an admin isnt around or even if one is, cos on other servers even if there is an admin on at the time the chances of him seeing stuff going wrong is small and thats when problems arise and people start banning people etc without actually seeing replays etc, were the ctra system really shines is on the license requirement servers, on those servers it makes a huge differance imo cos for a driver to get to that stage they must not be out to intentially wreck or annoy others

[NotAnIllusion]

Maybe my view is somewhat distorted by the amount of drivers, but imo the driving standards are better in the higher tier servers than the entry-level ones. That would indicate that the system is actually working. Of course the driving on CTRA1 is going to be of the same quality as other public servers simply because there are no restrictions.

edit: beaten by the Brit /sulk

[DeadWolfBones]

I didn't really find anything disputable in the article. He has his personal preference and he wrote it out in an editorial. :shrug:

I enjoy CTRA, but it is pretty tolerant on poor driving (though a far sight less so than normal un-adminned pickup servers) and can be a very frustrating experience at times.

[james12s]

lol :)

edit: i see were your coming from dwb but my thing is everyone has to start somewere and so the higher up you go the more strongly the rules are enforced

[The Moose]

I didn't really find anything disputable in the article.

Sorry, but indicating CTRA has a wrecker problem and saying it's not a place for serious racing are two highly disputable statements.

[hariel-HUN-]

I usually race on high-licensed server, and I don't know any wreckers there. This article is a complete rubbish. How could anyone know about any drivers, without the license to watch them. Some "journalist" thinks he/she knows everything about everything.:dnfnoob::mad:

[SamH]

Well Magnus is Gold-licenced, so he ought to know his stuff. I think it's just very unfortunate that he's chosen the public pickup racing format of CTRA to compare with Tim McArthur's R2P league racing hub. That's like comparing apples with bananas, frankly. It's not a comparison that can reasonably be drawn. Magnus is entitled to his opinion, and if he doesn't like CTRA then that's entirely his right.

I find Magnus's rather funky attempts at drawing direct comparisons between R2P and CTRA somewhat disappointing because of the unnatural twist that's required in order to make the comparison stick. The fact that the result of that twisting appears to reflect negatively on CTRA, for anyone who knows no better when reading his article, is doubly disappointing. On that level I have to say the attempt at balanced journalism fails dismally. But comparing these two systems is a fail in itself. As I said, you can't do it without perverting the premise and/or twisting the criteria.

In preparation for this article, my PM box has always been open. The fact that no approach was made, no questions about our methods or the reasons for them asked, and thus clearly no balanced research performed nor background provided.. well, that's just more of the same, and without intending to sound too disparaging, merely a classic piece of ASS.

[DeadWolfBones]

Sorry, but indicating CTRA has a wrecker problem and saying it's not a place for serious racing are two highly disputable statements.

All public LFS servers have wrecker problems. As he says, it's the nature of the game.

Not a place for serious racing is more disputable, but it's an opinion in an editorial piece. You can be mad that he has a different opinion than you, but it's his opinion nonetheless.

edit: and yeah, comparing CTRA to R2P is pretty silly.

[DeadWolfBones]

Btw, Sam, I might be interested in writing a piece for A.S.S. re: X2 when it comes out (or around that time).

[nelson_trujillo]

Well Magnus is Gold-licenced.
Sam you should invite him to drive again but with a Platinum/Int. A; having access to high level servers he'll have the whole picture, not a tiny exposure about the learning servers.
If a fast driver is forced to drive a while on Race 1, he/she will find it frustrating trying to survive T1, race after race.
He's wrong not doing the previous research before writing the editorial, but you Sam being the CTRA head should help him fix his short-vision.

[james12s]

dwb in my eyes it doesnt matter if it is an editorial the facts need to be there still and still has to be balanced and not be utter opinion(and even worse misplaced opinion)

[Christopher Raemisch]

Personally we are lax in our processing and enforcement. But then it's supposed to be a learning environment where drivers teach drivers to race in a pick-up and play format. It's still WIP and there is still stuff missing to help with this learning, but it's up to you guys to teach the community how to race, we only give you all the tools.

I don't know if it's a compliment or not to be directly compared to R2P which is a service you pay, what $12.95 for a standard membership and 17.97 for a premium? On top of that R2P is a LEAGUE organizer, we don't do that....YET :nod: You cannot get pick-up races on this.

[Flyinsi]

sounds like he's on the payroll to me.:smileypul As a newcomer in the past couple of weeks I have never experienced a deliberate take-out and I have had some of the best races since starting online racing early 2000 in various formats. There are always going to be incidents as there are in real life, but I think the CTRA servers are a pretty friendly arena for those of us who are never going to be world record holders to ply our trade. ASS, well quite.

:) Flyinsi

[Becky Rose]

The gauntlet was thrown down by that ... hmm family forum ... person of dubious parental lineage who may or may not be one of sim racings most popular personalities a long time ago.

Oh I cant say that can I, oh well :shrug:

The fact is live adminning DOES NOT WORK in LFS, I doubt it does in some other sims too, although i've not checked. The reason is simple: An admin lacks all the necessary tools to make the CORRECT decision.

We've all seen poor admin decisions with live admins - hell even CTRA has had a few when admins have been under pressure - but CTRA is unique in it's appeal procedure at least, bans are a very totalitarian approach to improving standards in our sport, and in my opinion serve only to move a problem on rather than fix it.

Now R2P is a league system, so lets compare it to a CTRA league, the STCC. The STCC rules expressely forbids the clerk or any race marshalls to make any decision that may impair a driver until post race stewarding. To put that another way, even I - as the league organiser - am not allowed to penalise a driver during the event. There is one exception to do with heats and failing to qualify for the feature race but it's an obscure rule for very specific circumstances and even that delays the start of the race in order to allow a formal review of the replay.

You cannot live admin a simulated race to a high standard because the limited camera perspective and replay tools are insufficient. ONLY a thorough search of the reply affords the necessary information for a QUALITY steward to do their job.

It is not possible to provide a high quality racing service with a live steward.

Pickup racing is a different ticket entirely, one which R2P does not cater to. This is the meat and veg of the CTRA system. I have raced other sims in pickup racing and am yet to find any service of the standard of the CTRA. I'll state that as a fact rather than an opinion.

EDIT: I would also like to point out that whilst the CTRA is a 24 hour operation is does feature an $admin alarm, if one is at home and not asleep! Which brings immediate attention to the admins in case of an actual wrecker. Thankfully actual wreckers are extremely rare.

[thisnameistaken]

sounds like he's on the payroll to me.:smileypul

Totally O/T: Kudos for bringing some Chorlton to the forums, I used to love that show. :thumb:

[Flyinsi]

lol my pleasure

[marzman]

I haven't been on CTRA servers for a while, but as i remember for Pick-Up-Racing they have good standards (better then average for such crowded servers).

I think it's not more then logical a system for what you have to pay with organized races and a live steward has higher standards. Almost every other organized (free) league has that too.

[Christopher Raemisch]

I think it's not more then logical a system for what you have to pay with organized races and a live steward has higher standards. Almost every other organized (free) league has that too.

:nod:

[SamH]

I don't think a live admin is required to achieve a higher standard of driving. I think what is needed is a comprehensive reporting system and supporting admin and appeal procedures.

I agree 100% with Becky, a live admin can't make a good call. Good calls come from close and meticulous review. Review happens after a race, not mid-race. A live admin amounts to a figurehead gimmick or a substitute for a server's InSim application, to start the race and collect results.

[edit] Racing in IGTC, just as an example, there's a whole bunch of admins present on the server, but in all complaints I've noted that they very sensibly and responsibly send one admin offline to review replays before administering DTs or SGs etc. Review is key. You can't do that accurately or fairly midrace with just one race steward online.

[edit edit] I'm not intent on criticizing R2P. Tim McArthur does what he does, and we do something different. When X2 goes live, then we'll be looking at something more head-to-head with R2P. The points I'm making are moot really, since they revolve around Magnus's opinion and really are only intended to address the deficiencies I perceive in his article.

[Gabkicks]

I read it a few weeks ago, thought about it for a moment and just figured "ASS".

CTRA doesn't have live admin, but it's not a pay-to-play service. It's also important to remember that they've held a whopping 1,759 races (at time of writing). We've held 122,303. They've clocked up an astounding 28,000 race entries while we've only managed to muster just shy of 900,000. They've raced a stonking 820,000 laps. We've only cranked out, between us, a measly 7 million laps.

I'm afraid I have no idea what their reporting procedures are like. I only know what ours are like. I don't know if theirs is more or less comprehensive than ours, or if it's as transparent. I don't know if they have a downloadable replay of every single reported/upheld incident ever reported on their system, like we have on ours, nor do I know if their appeals system is as functional as ours, or if their determination to uphold real-racing standards compares at all with ours. I just know we got a bit of a knocking by Mr Tellbom in ASS. We didn't skip a beat ;)

lol ASS is biased. people just need to stop being lazy and report extremely bad driving or wreckers. of course in the lower rungs there will be more accidents. There don't seem to be many in the classes above beginners... i wonder what the statistics are for each server. they might even be on the website... i'll go have a look

[Christopher Raemisch]

I don't think a live admin is required to achieve a higher standard of driving. I think what is needed is a comprehensive reporting system and supporting admin and appeal procedures.

I agree 100% with Becky, a live admin can't make a good call. Good calls come from close and meticulous review. Review happens after a race, not mid-race. A live admin amounts to a figurehead gimmick or a substitute for a server's InSim application, to start the race and collect results.

The first eTM race comes into mind myself... :doh:

I concur, live admining does not work. The admin will only manage to get glimpses of the infraction, and the rest would be guesswork, better off to view the incidents offline, which reminds me... I am crap Sam, kick me in the rear...only 100 more pages to read in my book...

[SamH]

/me kicks Chris up da bum ;) READ dammit! READ! :p

Our first UK eTM race is a really GOOD example, actually. We made an admin call in the server, thinking we'd got the facts right. We hadn't.. we made a mess. It simply wouldn't have happened if the admin decision had been kept til after the race, end of.

[SpikeyMarcoD]

Very stunned its a requirement for UKCT to be able to read :p

[Christopher Raemisch]

Very stunned its a requirement for UKCT to be able to read :p

I think it's a new requirement upcoming for the new fiscal year. Last year the highest requirement was that you had 2 eyes. The other one, which I successfully fulfilled in a Stock Cup race is running out of fuel on the last lap of a league race...

I'm trying... it's just soooo boring....

[SamH]

lol ASS is biased. people just need to stop being lazy and report extremely bad driving or wreckers. of course in the lower rungs there will be more accidents. There don't seem to be many in the classes above beginners... i wonder what the statistics are for each server. they might even be on the website... i'll go have a look
We generate report stats in the admin website. This is the current state of play:


Race1:NOT SUBMITTED: 20;

PENDING: 14;

UNDER REVIEW: 19;

DISMISSED: 332;

WARNED: 185;

CAUTIONED: 143;

SHORT TERM BAN: 62;

MID TERM BAN: 105;

PERMANENT BAN: 65;

Race2:NOT SUBMITTED: 0;

PENDING: 0;

UNDER REVIEW: 0;

DISMISSED: 37;

WARNED: 14;

CAUTIONED: 31;

SHORT TERM BAN: 4;

MID TERM BAN: 4;

PERMANENT BAN: 1;

Race3:NOT SUBMITTED: 0;

PENDING: 1;

UNDER REVIEW: 0;

DISMISSED: 14;

WARNED: 14;

CAUTIONED: 7;

SHORT TERM BAN: 2;

MID TERM BAN: 0;

PERMANENT BAN: 2;

RaceUFBR:NOT SUBMITTED: 0;

PENDING: 0;

UNDER REVIEW: 0;

DISMISSED: 29;

WARNED: 16;

CAUTIONED: 14;

SHORT TERM BAN: 5;

MID TERM BAN: 6;

PERMANENT BAN: 2;

Single1:NOT SUBMITTED: 15;

PENDING: 13;

UNDER REVIEW: 16;

DISMISSED: 134;

WARNED: 105;

CAUTIONED: 67;

SHORT TERM BAN: 30;

MID TERM BAN: 31;

PERMANENT BAN: 29;

Single2:NOT SUBMITTED: 2;

PENDING: 3;

UNDER REVIEW: 1;

DISMISSED: 7;

WARNED: 5;

CAUTIONED: 1;

SHORT TERM BAN: 0;

MID TERM BAN: 2;

PERMANENT BAN: 0;

Single3:NOT SUBMITTED: 0;

PENDING: 0;

UNDER REVIEW: 0;

DISMISSED: 1;

WARNED: 0;

CAUTIONED: 0;

SHORT TERM BAN: 0;

MID TERM BAN: 0;

PERMANENT BAN: 0;

BumpJump1:NOT SUBMITTED: 7;

PENDING: 14;

UNDER REVIEW: 3;

DISMISSED: 149;

WARNED: 25;

CAUTIONED: 21;

SHORT TERM BAN: 33;

MID TERM BAN: 29;

PERMANENT BAN: 23;

[Christopher Raemisch]

LOL I wonder where I remembered that page, I tried to find it on the CTRA site.... I think I need to goto bed, my temper went hours ago, now my common sense...oh wait....:x

[SamH]

hehe.. nighty night Chris! :D

[thisnameistaken]

I don't think a live admin is required to achieve a higher standard of driving.

I think it doesn't hurt. If someone can drive like a cock all night and only experience a slap on the wrist a week later, they might not appreciate what it was for, or even that it matters. Getting kicked for driving like a cretin tells you immediately that you should've have turned in on whoever it was you turned in on, or that punting your way through yellow flags isn't acceptable, or that not looking to see who's on your outside when you decide to drift all the way to the outside and cause a huge pile-up isn't the best way to race with humans.

The "newbie" servers are the only ones that are ever populated. I appreciate that the higher servers might have better driving standards, but if so little driving actually happens there then it's not much of a consolation. The racing on the newbie servers is awful, btw.

[SamH]

I'm afraid I just don't agree. Getting kicked off a server just means that you either lost connection or you got kicked by someone. It tells you nothing about the reason.

If on the other hand, even a week later, you start getting a massive great big "You have an admin message. Go to $notes." constantly splatted across the middle of your screen - or worse still, you join the server and immediately get kicked with a message saying "You have been banned 30 days", you're going to wonder WTF for. On investigation, you're given the reason for the complaint, the admin's decision, a link to the replay so you can see exactly what the problem is for yourself, and you're provided with an opportunity to appeal the decision if you think it's an unfair one.

Compared with a sharp kick off the server, I think our method thoroughly pwns.

[Shotglass]

We generate report stats in the admin website. This is the current state of play

are those since the system got started back when it was called stcc?

if so those numbers are way too low in my oppinion... i realize i havent been on a ctra sever in ages but that because everytime i was on one the driving didnt motivate me to stay long term

someone needs(ed) to tell these guys that walls are to be avoided and even from a standing start t1 needs some braking

although now that ive typed that i just rememberd plowing straight though 3 lxs driven by sam kev and i think fel on the blackwood backstraight after forgetting that the fz5s braking point is in fact not as far back as the lx'

[SamH]

are those since the system got started back when it was called stcc?
Nahh, these stats are all since the X-System, last summer. The licence notes from the STCC days are still kept on individual licences, and all associated replays are still available to admins if ever needed, but the current reporting system was developed from the ground up for the X-System and these numbers are all from that. :)

And I remember you doing that in that FZ50!! hehe!!

[thisnameistaken]

although now that ive typed that i just rememberd plowing straight though 3 lxs driven by sam kev and i think fel on the blackwood backstraight after forgetting that the fz5s braking point is in fact not as far back as the lx'

That's funny because I remember you as the best FZ driver I've ever seen. It's good to know that you suck. :)

Compared with a sharp kick off the server, I think our method thoroughly pwns.

Y'know, if it does, it's not working as it should. I went on your servers a couple of times last week and the driving was shocking. I didn't report anybody because I thought they'd only get a warning - it's a lot of bother to submit a report. Live admins mean there's no burden on the drivers to have to go through that whole rigmarole every race, and it is literally every race on the bottom-tier servers.

That's why I prefer to race on the DMR servers when they're populated. They know their regulars and they know they're not full of shit - they'll give newbies a fair go, but not tolerate over-aggressive driving. So if someone's clearly behaving like a tool they disappear during that session. Disappearing someone a week later makes no impact on that session, which is where IMHO the CTRA system falls over.

[The Moose]

I cant agree with much of that Kev.

I've been in race 1 a few times recently and there's been no hassle at all. If there are probs it's far from literally every race.

If you cant be arsed to make reports then your to blame for some of the driving standards.

If someone is driving consistently poorly then the $admin command is your friend. The few times I've seen it necessary for someone to call an admin into the server they've arrived quickly to cast their eye over things.

[Shotglass]

Compared with a sharp kick off the server, I think our method thoroughly pwns.

in terms of (theoretical) fairness... maybe

but it completely falls flat on immediacy
thou shalt not kill because if this books turns out to be true and someone snitches on you you might spend a bit of time being burned alive some time in the future but maybe not... yeah not exactly a threat that has much weight

and youre completely ignoring the effect that having someone with an @ infront of their name telling people to calm down can have... aka the tiny approach to admining

Nahh, these stats are all since the X-System, last summer.

still a bit on the low side then imho
my (dated) experience tells me i could go online at any time of day and find at least one reportworthy incident per race on the entry servers

That's funny because I remember you as the best FZ driver I've ever seen.

oh no im not

[SamH]

and youre completely ignoring the effect that having someone with an @ infront of their name telling people to calm down can have... aka the tiny approach to admining
Unfortunately we simply don't have the manpower. I'm taking the day off tomorrow to clear the backlog of reports that we have now. CTRA admining is entirely voluntary and everybody who is involved in it has prior commitments at the moment. That's just how things are. The alternative would be to close CTRA servers down until there is an admin available to man it, but that will change CTRA from the 24/7 place to race it is to something very different indeed.

[thisnameistaken]

I cant agree with much of that Kev.

I've been in race 1 a few times recently and there's been no hassle at all. If there are probs it's far from literally every race.

This ties in with the "hotlap to magically appear at the front of the grid" issue I argued about yesterday (was it today? Days kinda blend together when you're always drunk): You're one of the fastest drivers on the system. You rarely ever share the track with anyone but the best drivers. You're in no position to comment, really.

If you cant be arsed to make reports then your to blame for some of the driving standards.

Bollocks. I save replays, immediately disconnect and watch them, and find that half the other drivers on the server are making the same dipshit manoeuvres as the guy I'm about to report. Seriously. When that realisation arrives do you report 16 drivers or just assume it's acceptable to drive like a total dickhead? Arguably these guys race there more often than I do, and that's what they're used to. And why should I be responsible for the quality of racing on servers that I visit once or twice a month? Total bollocks.


If someone is driving consistently poorly then the $admin command is your friend. The few times I've seen it necessary for someone to call an admin into the server they've arrived quickly to cast their eye over things.

Sam just said himself that live adminning is totally pointless, so what's the point in having a command that calls an admin to make a live decision, on a system where they declare live admin decisions to be totally unreliable and unfair?

[SamH]

Sam just said himself that live adminning is totally pointless, so what's the point in having a command that calls an admin to make a live decision, on a system where they declare live admin decisions to be totally unreliable and unfair?
We don't. We stick our face in. If we see something we don't like, we raise a report like everyone else. Except in the case of blatant wreckers, sitting in SO City chicanes, anyway. That's usually the reason we get $admin called. Even in those instances, we'll only short-term ban until the full report is processed.

If it doesn't suit someone to race in CTRA, there's absolutely no point in trying to convince them they're wrong. It's not my job. At the end of the day, they're right. You go where you want, because that's what you want, and you don't go where it doesn't suit you. No amount of admins spouting bilge about how good they do their bit, or how good their bit is, is going to change anything.

[thisnameistaken]

If it doesn't suit someone to race in CTRA, there's absolutely no point in trying to convince them they're wrong. It's not my job. At the end of the day, they're right. You go where you want, because that's what you want, and you don't go where it doesn't suit you. No amount of admins spouting bilge about how good they do their bit, or how good their bit is, is going to change anything.

And if you're convinced your system is the best it can be, there's no point in me telling you where it falls short, and why smaller, better-adminned servers are better-equipped to provide a decent night's racing and consistently do so.

I just think the CTRA thing - while an admirable effort - seems like it's become little more than an exercise in officiousness. The good intention is there, but it's ruled by a blind faith in the quality of the process, which isn't adequate. You might be reducing the numbers of crap drivers eventually, but the processing time means that in all practicality it makes **** all difference to the people who are actually racing at any given time. And the beginner servers (I'm sure you're aware that those are the only regularly populated servers) continue to be full of shit drivers, only avoidable if you set a decent hotlap time and escape the pile-up at T1.

How this is supposed to be any better than a live-adminned server where obviously over-zealous drivers are cautioned or kicked/banned immediately is lost on me.

[SamH]

And will possibly always be so, I think.

The objective of the CTRA is not simply to provide racing servers. From its inception, the underlying intention was to change the way people race in public servers in LFS. I bet you don't remember the days when rejoining directly into traffic was just what people did, sod the consequence. You probably don't remember the days when Blue Flags were lost on most people.. they were completely meaningless.

With the CTRA, we attempted to up the awareness of racing conventions and extend the ramifications of ignoring them. We've made a concerted effort to focus on education and cleaning up the racing, rather than just clearing out the unruly and uneducated. We've tried to do this as personably as we could, on a case-by-case basis, despite a large-scale deployment of servers. I think a lot of what we've tried to do has been averaged across all public server racing, and is lost in the passage of time, but I guess that's just sod's law. I choose to believe we made a bit of a difference in the big picture though.

[Shotglass]

The objective of the CTRA is not simply to provide racing servers. From its inception, the underlying intention was to change the way people race in public servers in LFS. I bet you don't remember the days when rejoining directly into traffic was just what people did, sod the consequence. You probably don't remember the days when Blue Flags were lost on most people.. they were completely meaningless.

do you have an account that lets you observe what goes on in those servers without letting people know an admin is present?
from the numbers youve posted i dont think the amount of reports you process reflect whats going on in there and without an account that has admin written all over it youll never be able to see it for yourself

that aside the underlying problem is the points system... now i know weve been through this countless times and becky has called a lot of people very stupid for bringing this up but adding more competition and giving people something to gloat about through userbars cannot work if all youll ever do is sit people down and give them a talking to
if you make drivers more competitive than they already are thelly have to deal with harsher consequences if the overstep the line as well... otherwise it will end in the mayhem we saw when the single seater servers first opened

[SamH]

do you have an account that lets you observe what goes on in those servers without letting people know an admin is present?
from the numbers youve posted i dont think the amount of reports you process reflect whats going on in there and without an account that has admin written all over it youll never be able to see it for yourself
Yes.

Warnings : 404
Cautions : 287
Bans : 562
Dismissed : 711

[thisnameistaken]

And will possibly always be so, I think.

I take it by that you mean that my lack of appreciation for the format will "always be so". If that's the case then I would agree, if nothing is likely to change, but I was trying to make a point beyond my own personal opinion. I don't think it's pompous to assume that I'm not alone in my opinion.

The objective of the CTRA is not simply to provide racing servers. From its inception, the underlying intention was to change the way people race in public servers in LFS. I bet you don't remember the days when rejoining directly into traffic was just what people did, sod the consequence. You probably don't remember the days when Blue Flags were lost on most people.. they were completely meaningless.

I remember any days that you remember - I've been here since the S2 demo. Your implication that your system has improved driver standards on third-party servers is nothing more than an implication, given that there's no way of demonstrating it either way. In my opinion, driving standards on third-party servers that are actively administrated are currently better than those on CTRA servers.

This isn't a dig at the CTRA organisation at all - I like you guys personally, and I figure given my forum volume that the active ones amongst you are probably aware of that. But it does suggest something's wrong with your system, given that it's intended to reward (at the most basic level) quality racing habits.

With the CTRA, we attempted to up the awareness of racing conventions and extend the ramifications of ignoring them. We've made a concerted effort to focus on education and cleaning up the racing, rather than just clearing out the unruly and uneducated.

Unfortunately you're battling against the might of public server gaming. People discover what's actually acceptable - perhaps it's what won't be reported - rather than what's expected of them, and they drive accordingly. I've seen it every time I've connected recently and it's really not reportable, it's epidemic. That is not an exaggeration.

I'm assuming you know I am supportive of your efforts and I appreciate the amount of work that's gone into the system (probably more than I can appreciate, to be honest), but unfortunately like any rigid system it's prone to failure, and abuse has become such a standard that it is now failing at its most basic level.

All IMHO of course, but run a couple of races at SS1 and see for yourself. What worries me most is that - given the system's high profile in LFS - these crappy driving standards may become de-facto. And that sooner or later all servers will be overrun with shitty drivers who think they're hitting the marks expected of them because they never got hammered by the CTRA.

[SamH]

We get all manner of reports, ranging from speed hackers and wrecker reports right down to skirmishes for corners, bad language and bad attitudes. Repeat offenders that don't or won't learn do get permanently banned. People who are regulars on the server and who are prolific reporters of perhaps seemingly insignificant incidents do paint dark pictures of individuals over time, and we act on them. Nothing that is ever reported is deleted. It's all there for us to identify patterns, even the dismissed-as-trivial stuff. I think I'd be aware of issues of epic proportions.

I don't think it's broken. I don't think it's faulty. I don't think racing on CTRA is the abysmal experience you describe at all. But that's just my opinion, for what it's worth, based on my own observations during my time on the servers. I don't have any explanation why your experiences on the servers are so fundamentally different from mine, and don't know if it comes down to my good fortune or your bad luck.

I suspect you enter with a pair of "this thing doesn't work" glasses on and try as you may, that's all you can see. Perhaps I'm wrong. :shrug:

PS: I like you too, Kev. This isn't personal. I just don't see what you see at all. Not even slightly.

[thisnameistaken]

We get all manner of reports, ranging from speed hackers and wrecker reports right down to skirmishes for corners, bad language and bad attitudes. Repeat offenders that don't or won't learn do get permanently banned.

Speed hackers or wreckers I assume get permanently banned immediately and permanently. I can't see any other response being practical. Anyway I'm not talking about those.

People who are regulars on the server and who are prolific reporters of perhaps seemingly insignificant incidents do paint dark pictures of individuals over time, and we act on them. Nothing that is ever reported is deleted. It's all there for us to identify patterns, even the dismissed-as-trivial stuff.

Other servers act on those behaviours immediately. It doesn't take an established pattern of driving like a dickhead (or, rather, reported driving like a dickhead - something else entirely) to result action against someone, they're simply removed. That's instantly better than your system.

I don't think it's broken. I don't think it's faulty. I don't think racing on CTRA is the abysmal experience you describe at all. But that's just my opinion, for what it's worth, based on my own observations during my time on the servers. I don't have any explanation why your experiences on the servers are so fundamentally different from mine, and don't know if it comes down to my good fortune or your bad luck.

Most recent example: I joined your SS1 server the other night running KY2. Started towards the back of the grid, into T1 (proper) the two cars infront of me collided and spun. I slowed a bit (having had something in reserve to allow me to, given that it was T1 and I'm not a dickhead) and went around the inside of them, and the guy behind me punted me into the gravel (he was hit by the guy behind him).

Later in the race, having crawled out of the gravel and avoided faster traffic and having picked up a yellow flag stat for driving like any normal person, I caught a car on the oval section and went around the outside of him. The guy he was trying to pass then decided to drift towards the outside (I looked at it from his cockpit view - my car and the other car were clearly visible) and hit both of us, and later hit two other cars. I went into the wall and clocked up another yellow flag stat. Got back up to speed by the time T1 rolled around.

Reaching T1, some slower cars had caught up with me and one was on my inside in the braking zone. I intended to let him pass into the corner but he decided to pull out to the wall before braking - straight into my car. I spun, had no chance of making the corner, so I recorded the replay and went offline to judge all these incidents. In this one replay there were so many drivers who sucked so badly it seemed almost asinine to raise a report. I had to accept that this sort of driving was a de-facto standard on CTRA servers.

And it seems it is, on the lower tier servers.

I suspect you enter with a pair of "this thing doesn't work" glasses on and try as you may, that's all you can see. Perhaps I'm wrong.

You are wrong. I join a busy server on the odd occasion I get a chance to do some LFS racing, and usually this is one of your servers (unless the DMR server is busy in which case I will always choose theirs over yours, but I often don't get a chance to race before 10pm and their activity dies out around then). I always connect with the best of intentions and expect the same of the cars around me, and I am routinely disappointed.

[The Moose]

You rarely ever share the track with anyone but the best drivers. You're in no position to comment, really.


Whilst i have to agree with you there, i still often watch a few races in-between driving and i still don't see what your describing as the norm:shrug:

[mkinnov8]

Had he actually based his comments on facts rather than a possible bad 30mins on a server then i would agree, but stating "it's not CTRA’s fault they have a wrecker problem in some servers" is sloppy journalism because it's a load of made up tosh.

Yes. of course, in your opinion, which you must have forgotten to add, simple mistake to make however.

A small note on what ive read so far in this thread.. im happy its being discussed. I have to air on the side of saying that im slightly worried about the lack of support for servers with actual admins.

CTRA has done good stuff.. for pickup racing, and will continue to develop, but will never have the ability to be "there" as an in-server administrator would.. The $admin thing.. is still having to call an admin to the server, so not really solving the issue, if there was one.

CTRA is trying to fill the boots and do the job which was in the past conducted by real live administrators, its not, and will never be a replacement in my mind, but its an almost middle ground.

Again, the R2P comparison was.. unfair to begin with, but I feel the discussion has moved on from there.

CTRA wasnt the first, isnt the whole solution and wont be the last effort to do what its trying to do. But it does give me something to do in the day time!

PS, if the manpower is low, does the GTRA not consider appealing for help?

Idle 4:15am-bloody-insomnia-thoughts :)

[thisnameistaken]

Yes. of course, in your opinion, which you must have forgotten to add, simple mistake to make however.

I think, given that this is a public forum, it's reasonable to assume that any post you read is that poster's personal opinion unless it's accompanied by the disclaimer "This is established fact and not my personal opinion". Otherwise the forum would fill up with redundant "In my opinion" disclaimers quicker than it fills up with "I did this" userbars.

[Shotglass]

Warnings : 404
Cautions : 287
Bans : 562
Dismissed : 711


so with 25.000 players and assuming all those repoerts are unique hits that would be ~10% of the userbase
imho that number is both too low and too high depending on which way you look at it

Otherwise the forum would fill up with redundant "In my opinion" disclaimers quicker than it fills up with "I did this" userbars.

good thing we dont have "your mom" userbars

[Christopher Raemisch]

At the end of the day, it's up to the community to decide on how well the system works. If you fail to submit a report, which literally can be done before the next race starts, a fraction of the time we spend on each report. A typical race report should take around a minute to complete.

Once your racing is done for the night it's another simple step to log into MYCTRA and clicking submit. Total time committed on behalf of the driver, less than two minutes if done efficiently.

If two minutes of your time isn't worth cleaning up the server, then it's not worth 24hours of our time to babysit everyone, which is what you are asking. Sorry, I have done my share of babysitting, you all are not children, and we will not treat you like ones. The server is only as good as the commitment the drivers give to the process in place. If you feel that this time commitment on your side is too much, maybe the CTRA is not a place for you.

I hop on the Tier 1 servers from time to time, I fail to see any major issues with the driving.

Another note, how can an admin catch all, or even any of the wreckers? They only have two eyes and only 1 screen, so the most they could see is 1 incident at a time accurately. Then the problem arises how will that admin have their screen on every incident? Chances are there are going to be many incidents that will be unseen by the live admin, and how can they administer a kick on someone when the admin failed to see the incident in the first place?

Does the CTRA catch every incident? No we don't because people want an 'instakick' for poor behavior, and because of this they feel, like yourself, that it's not worth 2 minutes of their time. Thats not education or community spirit, thats elitism, and something that should be left in the history books and is something the CTRA is trying to avoid.

How does this driver from a live admin server know what they did wrong? Do they have a replay they can reflect on, with a description of what they did wrong? If the penalized driver is allowed on the server, what else will the admin miss when giving a rundown of what happened to the penalized driver? Because there is no proof, only the admins opinion on the incident, will that person believe them? The drivers that are genuinely trying to learn how to race will be afraid of being kicked if they did something wrong, to me something seems wrong when you have to rely on fear to keep them in the right. This is they type of server you are asking for if we kick people without question or review as a live admin does. Personally we might as well be the Gestapo then...

Sure this type of totalitarian approach will bring people in tow, but people are not really learning anything and it's defiantly not a learning environment where people would want to learn in. For an experienced driver like yourself, it's great. There is no hassle, all the drivers that you would have to tip-toe around are gone, but it's doing nothing for the community, with exception for the elitists.


I could be totally off on all this, but thats how I feel, obviously. If I didn't feel this way I wouldn't be a CTRA admin...

[james12s]

i do spend and have spent alot of time on ctra servers, both as a ukct driver and as an independant driver, i also race with my cousin alot on the ctra servers and have never seen any incidents like kev if decribing, i see the point about reports taking a long time to proccess but that is due at the moment to peoples circomstances, i do also agree that maybe the admins need to be a little more tough on people but not too much, live adminning as i said earlier is fraut with problems, and yes the ctra has its problems too, one of them being a delay till the concquence but at least when punishment is given it is fair and the incident was investigated fully

[HVS5b]

Whilst I haven't driven Race 1 since I got my silver licence and really can't comment, it must be said SS1 can be a bit barmy on occassion and I'm sure most of us have experienced some of the antics as described by Kev. I don't know how an admin can come on here and say they have never seen anything similar....

It seems like KY2 and WE1 (high speed flowing circuits) are the the main culprits in this regard.

Basically stick to the 2nd and 3rd tier servers and there is simply not a problem outwith the normal racing incidents and rare lapse in judgement/ability :razz:

I am slightly surprised by the low number of total reports raised outwith the entry level servers, I really thought it would have been more. Quite what this says tho, I'm not sure.

One last, quick point. It takes me about 15min to raise a report, as no matter which race I choose as the replay, it's never the one I am looking for. Then you have to analyse it yourself to make sure the events were as you pictured from inside the car. Quite how that can be done in 1 min between race IDK?

[thisnameistaken]

I would agree with you that it takes a bit longer than Chris' estimate to complete a report. My other point in relation to this was that often it's difficult to know who to report when half a dozen or more drivers are equally culpable. Do you report them all or just assume that's the accepted standard of driving?

Should I raise a report like this after every race? I would spend more time reporting than racing, and more than likely see no improvement on the server anyway.

[SamH]

I don't see the routine habitual moronic behaviour in every race from 16 drivers at a time that's being purported.

Maybe the CTRA system really is doing irrepairable damage to the general behaviour of racers in public servers as Kev says. What a sorry state of affairs indeed. Who could have predicted that, eh? The CTRA system responsible for ****ing up everybody else's servers. Perhaps we should just concede it was a nice idea but it didn't work the way we wanted, hang up our gloves and walk away.

[HVS5b]

I don't see the routine habitual moronic behaviour in every race from 16 drivers at a time that's being purported.

Maybe the CTRA system really is doing irrepairable damage to the general behaviour of racers in public servers as Kev says. What a sorry state of affairs indeed. Who could have predicted that, eh? The CTRA system responsible for ****ing up everybody else's servers. Perhaps we should just concede it was a nice idea but it didn't work the way we wanted, hang up our gloves and walk away.

Easy tiger :razz: I think I could speak for 99% of the CTRA users when I say "keep up the good work :thumb:"

It's a massive undertaking, we appreciate that, and appreciate the efforts of all the admin staff.

Doesn't negate the fact that sh!t happens, and theres nowt ye kin dae aboot it :tilt:

Still my favourite batch of servers :nod:

[SamH]

[edit] I posted this before I read your last post, HV..

Wait, I've had another idea. I'm mentally consigning this utter pile of complete bollocks to the bin. If you don't like what we do, then **** off and don't bother coming back. If it sucks, what the **** are you doing there anyway?

I was mentally and emotionally drained by the bitch they call my ex wife for 5 years, and I'll be buggered if I'm gonna let some gripey minority neysayers on a forum do me over like she did. Get with the programme - the WHOLE programme - or GTF out and stay out. Thank christ for the cold light of day.. don't like it? Don't do it!

[james12s]

I would agree with you that it takes a bit longer than Chris' estimate to complete a report. My other point in relation to this was that often it's difficult to know who to report when half a dozen or more drivers are equally culpable. Do you report them all or just assume that's the accepted standard of driving?

Should I raise a report like this after every race? I would spend more time reporting than racing, and more than likely see no improvement on the server anyway.
kev ok there may be many people you could reprt but just report one , ok its not ideal but it helps and then when the admins look at the report they wil see the others.

and hvs5b if you were saying about me in the first section, im not an admin ;)

[james12s]

[edit] I posted this before I read your last post, HV..

Wait, I've had another idea. I'm mentally consigning this utter pile of complete bollocks to the bin. If you don't like what we do, then **** off and don't bother coming back. If it sucks, what the **** are you doing there anyway?

I was mentally and emotionally drained by the bitch they call my ex wife for 5 years, and I'll be buggered if I'm gonna let some gripey minority neysayers on a forum do me over like she did. Get with the programme - the WHOLE programme - or GTF out and stay out. Thank christ for the cold light of day.. don't like it? Don't do it!
chin up sam there are many more people that appreciate the system than dont

[cholerix]

sounds like he's on the payroll to me.:smileypul

It's more simple: Magnus has a very detailed expectation of how sim racing should be - actually about as close to real life racing as could be.

If some environment does provide more "realism" in this particular aspect, other environments will be either "outdated" or "on the wrong way" - they'll simply lack what he's looking for. And as he's the one with full insight in what simracing has to be about, those other environments will be turned down in his ASS pamphlets

Welcome to the club :D

Right now he's simply the prophet of "pay for race" environments, as only these will ever be able to provide what he's looking for. iRacing should try to hire him ASAP for public relations....

[SamH]

It's more simple: Magnus has a very detailed expectation of how sim racing should be - actually about as close to real life racing as could be.
Racing rFactor? Puhleeze!

[SamH]

kev ok there may be many people you could reprt but just report one , ok its not ideal but it helps and then when the admins look at the report they wil see the others.

and hvs5b if you were saying about me in the first section, im not an admin ;)
No, Kev shouldn't report anyone if he can't be arsed to. And while he's busy not reporting them, he can accept that if he'd reported the same twerp that did the same thing to him on the same day the previous week, maybe it wouldn't have happened to him this time.. and then he can self-perpetuate his own misery, and ensure someone else's in the future, by racing his continued self-righteous non-reporting into the next corner while taking advange of sweet FA of the procedures in place to deal with such things.

Not just Kev, anyone with that mindset. The CTRA operates best when the racers are FULLY involved in what goes on in there.. less of the "can't be arsed" and the "not my job" lot. The CTRA was intended to be a long-term project, and it isn't helped by short-term thinkers.

Sometimes you sap the very will to live, Kev. Still love ya tho.

[james12s]

i see where your coming from, in my eyes everyone on the server has a sorta admin role in that they should report rule breaking.

and i bet kev still loves you like we all do ;) lol

[AndroidXP]

...
The only utter pile of bollocks that should be binned is this post of yours. No need to blow up on a bit of criticism.

[Christopher Raemisch]

[edit] I posted this before I read your last post, HV..

Wait, I've had another idea. I'm mentally consigning this utter pile of complete bollocks to the bin. If you don't like what we do, then **** off and don't bother coming back. If it sucks, what the **** are you doing there anyway?

I was mentally and emotionally drained by the bitch they call my ex wife for 5 years, and I'll be buggered if I'm gonna let some gripey minority neysayers on a forum do me over like she did. Get with the programme - the WHOLE programme - or GTF out and stay out. Thank christ for the cold light of day.. don't like it? Don't do it!


LOL interesting comparison =)

[thisnameistaken]

If you don't like what we do, then **** off and don't bother coming back. ... I was mentally and emotionally drained by the bitch they call my ex wife for 5 years, and I'll be buggered if I'm gonna let some gripey minority neysayers on a forum do me over like she did. Get with the programme - the WHOLE programme - or GTF out and stay out.

Charming.

[J@tko]

Considering that CTRA is completely and totally free I think its fantastic. True, there are a few numpties who really cannot drive, but you're going to get that wherever you go (and on whatever game you drive on). Race 1 is not full of wreckers, no. I've never ever seen a deliberate wrecker there. There are some people whose driving needs improving, but they're not going round crashing everyone. And when they're reported and cautioned or whatever, hopefully they will see their faults and improve their driving both on CTRA and elsewhere.

The CTRA admins do a great job, and with the CTRA system, LFS is a much much better sim. Keep up the good work guys. :thumbsup:

[HVS5b]

and hvs5b if you were saying about me in the first section, im not an admin ;)


woops a daisy - my mistake :shy:

[thisnameistaken]

Considering that CTRA is completely and totally free I think its fantastic.

I've yet to find a server on the list that isn't free.

Anyway, I still think my criticism is valid, I don't think driving standards on CTRA servers are any better than any other race servers I've driven on. I won't go as far as to say they're worse, but I do think the points system encourages over-zealous driving and leads to more accidents.

The admins disagree, it's all talked out, so I'll leave it at that.

[SamH]

It's where I'm at. I'll get over it, like I always do. :shrug:

[Shotglass]

Race 1 is not full of wreckers, no.

in a way it would be better if it was... then youd at least be prepared for them turning into you any second

[mkinnov8]

I think, given that this is a public forum, it's reasonable to assume that any post you read is that poster's personal opinion unless it's accompanied by the disclaimer "This is established fact and not my personal opinion". Otherwise the forum would fill up with redundant "In my opinion" disclaimers quicker than it fills up with "I did this" userbars.

Ah, fair point yes :)

I don't see the routine habitual moronic behaviour in every race from 16 drivers at a time that's being purported.

And probably never will, but thats your call, others will be different, (in the same tone as some of the later text you wrote below) "deal with it." :)

Maybe the CTRA system really is doing irrepairable damage to the general behaviour of racers in public servers as Kev says. What a sorry state of affairs indeed. Who could have predicted that, eh? The CTRA system responsible for ****ing up everybody else's servers. Perhaps we should just concede it was a nice idea but it didn't work the way we wanted, hang up our gloves and walk away.

Er, ok then. Note that no one other than yourself sam mentioned that. It sounds like the usual "people dont agree or see it one way so ill just take my ball home" to me. Firstly, these servers are your own, just like any other server owner, you can run your servers however you wish, you know that. You also know you dont have to justify anything to anyone that you dont want to. The line "thats just the way it is" is sometimes helpful in these situations :)

The point about the above statement that sticks with me is this:

Who could have predicted that, eh? The CTRA system responsible for ****ing up everybody else's servers.

Erm, LOL! If you really think this, then perhaps it is time to take some time off from ctra, perhaps try some other servers.. non ctra servers, expect nothing and see what other people are doing with LFS, without all this extra coding and buttons. I dont believe it should be thought that ctra would be responsible for "****ing up" other peoples servers, I dont believe it should be given that weight outside of its own servers.

To me, its just like any other 3rd party app.. LFS Lapper, LFS Buddy, damnit, ive the cruise servers, they all do a job and add some extra functionality into LFS.



Wait, I've had another idea. I'm mentally consigning this utter pile of complete bollocks to the bin.

Yeh.. Dont. Its worth thinking about im afraid. Yes, there are many who enjoy ctra servers (me included), but it does have its faults.. show me something that doesnt? Its not bollocks, the thread evolved into something which people felt needed to be said..

If you don't like what we do, then **** off and don't bother coming back. If it sucks, what the **** are you doing there anyway?

Im really guessing you dont mean that, and in the cold light of day, if you read that statement made by someone else about the ctra, you wouldnt like it. As said above, your servers, on which you can and will do whatever you like, with the same rights as any other server administrator, but, you wouldnt be that damn right rude to your potential users. I dont believe you have that in you.

... SNIP... and I'll be buggered if I'm gonna let some gripey minority neysayers on a forum do me over... SNIPl

Ive cut some of that out because I fail to find the connection, this is no and has never been personal Sam, as you said yourself earlier.

Occationally, these group of gripy members have something to say, and eventually, minorities are listened to.

[SamH]

Er, ok then. Note that no one other than yourself sam mentioned that.
Please take a moment to read the thread you're posting in.
given the system's high profile in LFS - these crappy driving standards may become de-facto. And that sooner or later all servers will be overrun with shitty drivers who think they're hitting the marks expected of them because they never got hammered by the CTRA.
I'm not bothering to address the rest. It was a late night and an early morning and I'm out of the habit of those.

[edit] Stoney, I still read much worse than I intend. Sorry. I'm gonna bugger off myself and go take some nice pictures, have a pint in a beer garden and come back to deal with the outstanding CTRA reports. This lone-ranger business is just a lousy habit of mine. The CTRA is what the CTRA is and I do still believe in it. That's all that matters to me.

[mkinnov8]

Please take a moment to read the thread you're posting in.

Yep, considering having to click several times on the page to quote, copy paste etc, im fairly sure I did so, otherwise your point has flown over my dumb head.

^^ posted before seeing your above edit.

Sounds good to me.. can I come?!

[SamH]

I'm saying that, contrary to Kev's implicit suggestions, I don't believe that the CTRA does any harm whatsoever to the standard of driving in any other server, and that if it's done anything it's probably introduced certain aspects of racing etiquette to the conscience of a lot more people than not.

Beer time.

[AndroidXP]

Please take a moment to read the thread you're posting in.
What Kev posted in that regard is obviously misguided, since it asserts that the default driving behaviour is better than CTRA server behaviour, which it is not.

It may be true that the driver behaviour in CTRA might become the benchmark of "acceptable" behaviour everywhere (CTRA is pretty much the most popular system out there, so take that as a compliment :)), and this "acceptable" behaviour might not be good enough on average for Kev or in general, but it's still a far better behaviour than one that would develop on completely unregulated servers. It might not be perfect and not up to Kev's standards, but it's not dragging the LFS average down.

However it's also to be considered that CTRA mainly works passively, by providing dumpster servers (the entry level ones) where pretty much every muppet can drive, and only the good drivers that gain license levels and race on a different server can really benefit of a better driving standard. Then again, that also raises the problem that there's no way to race the entry level cars with a better-than-public standard. :scratchch

Whatever, beer is a good idea in any case :tilt:

[Mille Sabords]

After reading this (somehow depressive, except for the beer part) thread, I come with a suggestion (unrealstic, complicated and not perfectly shaped but I'm supposed to be working just now).
Entry level servers *could* require some kind of benchmark to enter.
Would it be possible for the entry server to request a hotlap @107% WR on LFSW for a series of combos before competing?
That would force people to at least know where the track goes when they start the race, and that would ensure they have a basic knowledge of car handling to meet the benchmark...It would also mean a bit more efforts to get in, don't know if it is + or -.
Of course it would not be sufficient to ensure racecraft, but it would probably discourage or eliminate wreckers from the equation.
It may have been suggested earlier when the userbase was too scarce to request an entry test, but Race1 seems pretty much full these days (at the time of the day when I can check it).
Any comments?

[BurnOut69]

Any comments?

Nice idea overall, but it doesnt take into account that there are some seriously fast dickheads out there.

[Becky Rose]

becky has called a lot of people very stupid for bringing this up
I'd like you to quote me...

Stupid is blaming the server for low driving standards. Let's have a history recap:

Low driving standards existed in online racing right from the beginning, some people dont take it seriously. LFS tried to counter this by having a fixed account name, a huge step which gave the LFS user base the means to block bad apples.

This resulted in LFS becoming the defacto sim for pickup racing. Other sims still have a market for league racing but really if you played pickup racing on a sim without a fixed [and bannable] licence name then you know what i'm talking about. Not taking the chicane at Monza and wrecking is absolutely routine in GTR2. When I say routine, I meen it's absolutely 9 'till 5 routine - every race, and no recompense for the wreckers, which is around 30-60% of entries in any given pickup race.

So forgetting league racing for the moment, in pickup racing LFS was the defacto standard sim. But "wrecking" was a problem, so along came the wrecker barricade.

Now I was an active sim racer at this point, and whilst the wrecker barricade was good it had a few shortcomings. I was sick to death of people rejoining into traffic after crashing - this was so prevelent that often people didnt even know what they where doing was wrong, sick to death by the quantity of crashes - every lap i'd be passing strewn cars somewhere - and I was absolutely fed up of giving way in overtaking battles because people didnt know who had right of way.

I was running a public server by this point, the STCC League Practice server, and after giving bans for 90 days for anyone rejoining into traffic word started to get around this wasnt acceptable any more... Though some argued...

It still wasnt enough though, sim racers where still absolutely useless when public racing, and there where epidemic problems with attitude from a userbase consisting not just of racers, but casual gamers.

This is when I started work on the STCC tiered public server system. The purpose of which was to give the better drivers a place to race whilst the general hubbub of public racers would be stuck on the entry server and I could forget about them...

The STCC server system included a licence notes section and the ability to give warnings via RCM all in a nice neat interface for the admins. It was a huge step forward in sorting out public racing standards, which where at the time of launch still diabolical.

I'm glad to say that rejoining into traffic is mostly a thing of the past, and overall racing standards have improved and I believe, personally, that the STCC public servers where a huge factor in making that happen, because the wrecker barricade and live admins hadn't fixed it until that point.

The development of the reporting system in X-System was something I delivered after review of how better to improve the old STCC system. Fundamentally it treats each report as a unique object rather than each driver, a change of conceptual approach, which has made the whole issue of reporting a much more interactive affair and provides greater feedback for all parties involved.

When I first unveiled it to Sam he was both excited and scared of the workload i'd just given him, and to his credit even when I was in the CTRA I barely helped out at all with the reports, I just couldnt be arsed.

The reporting system itself hasnt fixed driver issues, but in combination with the clearly visible rules I think X-System has made drivers much more aware of overlap regulations and generally improved driving standards globally in pickup racing, it's established that mid race joiners are 'practicers', and told even casual racers how many blocking moves they may make.

Clearly there is always another way to do things and some other way may be better, but live admins definately isnt it - especially not in a 24 hour free operation - you can pay for services like R2P to run your league racing, but you can get free league racing with live admins anyway - this is about casual pickup racing...

Now you have to decide, should the system cater to absolute beginners and welcome everyone? Or should the system say casual gamers can go to hell.

If the CTRA wants to set itself above the rest and continue it's mission to provide serious racers a place where they can get serious racing on a casual basis, and they want to do this at the 1st tier - simple, just insist on new drivers having a minimum online mileage and win ratio etc.

Or they can provide a place for those who havnt done the mileage to race and give a place for muppets and idiots to race, on the same systems as the pro's - in order to proove they have the mettle to race with the good guys. These servers where called "Race 1" and "Single Seater 1".

Now whilst the majority of racing may be done on the muppet servers which where created purely for the purpose of dealing with the numbers/mass populace, then that's great - it means most of the idiots are filtered into a place where they can be avoided by the pro's.

The fact that many pro's are happy to race on the muppet servers shows that actually they aren't that bad a place to race on the whole.

However yes, it's also true that many people playing online for the first time, many people with less experience, will be racing for the first time on Race 1 / Single Seater 1.

I note with some concern in this thread that the CTRA is being more lax toward reports on the lower server, I dont agree with this myself and that was never the mission. Lax on first offence but high standards on all servers was always the original goal - giving the chance to educate first, then getting the sledgehammer out.

Yes Race 1 / Single Seater 1 are non-qualified public servers. But i've raced Redline and Conedodgers (the other popular servers when I was driving), so dont try to convince me that the CTRA is any worse. Sometimes those servers had live admins too, I can count almost as many badly applied bans as well applied - but in all cases, no right of appeal, no justification - and absolutely NO DRIVER EDUCATION. How does that help? It doesnt, it just moves the problem on.

Zero tolerance is fine for speed hackers and wreckers, they wont learn, but for those racing incidents, those overlap misjudgements, those lesser rules where totalitarian actions dont help - where review of the replay is needed. Show me how a live admin does that for a 32 car field?

[Toddshooter]

I have very few problems on Race#1!

I go there when the other servers are empty and most of the time I get clean fair racing.
Occasionally you run into a jerk but that happens everywhere.

I know I don't speak only for myself when I say that I have had some of the best and most fun races on Race#1.

It's nice to go and share sets with new drivers and get great sets from guys and gals that drive there all the time. This past weekend I went from the DMR server almost directly to Race#1 and the racing was just as fun. Only thing missing was everyone being on ventrillo.

I have the reporting function down to an art now. I can get a report sent to CTRA in no time and be in the next race. You don't have to do anything when your in the server hardly. Just get it sent and then edit it later at CTRA.

Easy peasy:thumb:

Oh I almost forgot, Kev what time of day are you usually race on Race#1?
I'll make sure to come punt you off:D:D

[J@tko]

I've yet to find a server on the list that isn't free.
I've yet to find a server on the list that gives you as much out-of race information and support as CTRA, nor one that has such a comprehensive reporting system :shrug:

[mkinnov8]

I've yet to find a server on the list that gives you as much out-of race information and support as CTRA, nor one that has such a comprehensive reporting system :shrug:

I doubt you will find one either, its not the server thats giving up the information, its the insim addon which isnt standard on every server, thankfully. :tilt:

[theo3000]

I'm an absolute newbie who races on CTRA SS1, and I crash a lot. I do, however, at least run a few laps offline to familiarize myself with the course; and I do my best to stay out of everyone's way.

Ideally, I would do all of my learning offline, but the multi-player experience is much more entertaining, and I enjoy the chat.

Right now, I'm almost invisible to the other drivers because I'm so slow and I keep an eye out for the blue flags. The problems going to come when I'm fast enough to keep up with the pack, and I bet it's drivers at that level that are causing the most frustration. I don't see it as avoidable, and the level 1 servers seem the ideal place for people to learn how to drive with others around them. If there's a better server for someone like me, let me know.

[NotAnIllusion]

I'm an absolute newbie who races on CTRA SS1, and I crash a lot. I do, however, at least run a few laps offline to familiarize myself with the course; and I do my best to stay out of everyone's way.

Ideally, I would do all of my learning offline, but the multi-player experience is much more entertaining, and I enjoy the chat.

Right now, I'm almost invisible to the other drivers because I'm so slow and I keep an eye out for the blue flags. The problems going to come when I'm fast enough to keep up with the pack, and I bet it's drivers at that level that are causing the most frustration. I don't see it as avoidable, and the level 1 servers seem the ideal place for people to learn how to drive with others around them. If there's a better server for someone like me, let me know.
The CTRA tier-1 servers are quite good for the beginner :) They do become very busy though, and tracks like SO3 are mayhem with a full grid, with little margin for error while getting lapped etc. There are plenty of beginner friendly servers. In fact, I don't think there are that many racing servers that require you to not be a beginner. As said, DMR is a great server with great people.

The general rule I had when I was a beginner (I'm still a noob though :D) was: practice driving the car. Learning the track beforehand is not all that important, you can always spec one race and join at the back of the grid for a few more to familiarise. No amount of track knowledge is going to save you though, if you can't keep your vehicle pointed in the right direction on a straight.

[Shotglass]

I'd like you to quote me...

id like to think you have enough sense of humour to understand the motivation behind that formulation

whilst the general hubbub of public racers would be stuck on the entry server and I could forget about them...

well it worked beautifully then
the problem then is that slow but fair drivers (eg kev) cant be arsed to suffer through the longish (thanks to being slow) time it takes to get to the higher tiers

The reporting system itself hasnt fixed driver issues, but in combination with the clearly visible rules I think X-System has made drivers much more aware of overlap regulations and generally improved driving standards globally in pickup racing, it's established that mid race joiners are 'practicers', and told even casual racers how many blocking moves they may make.

it might have but i get the feel people prefer to ignore the rules and get away with it for the most part

simple, just insist on new drivers having a minimum online mileage and win ratio etc.

might work but a lot of drivers id trust blindly to know where they have to place their cars have low win ratios and one particular driver with a very high win ratio that id ban on sight if i had admin rights comes to mind as well... not very reliable

Now whilst the majority of racing may be done on the muppet servers which where created purely for the purpose of dealing with the numbers/mass populace, then that's great - it means most of the idiots are filtered into a place where they can be avoided by the pro's.

as pointed out earlier every protential pro will have to go through the "monkeys at the back" which leaves us mostly with 3 outcomes
1) hes fast enough to get to a silver licence within a few hours and wont mind much
2) hes new and gets conditioned into thinking that the behaviour on tier 1 is acceptable
3) hes experienced but slow(ish) and uses servers that attract the long standing core community (eg dsrc) and will get fed up with the standard of driving quickly and leave again

and i think 2 of these are a problem one of these a potentially major one

The fact that many pro's are happy to race on the muppet servers shows that actually they aren't that bad a place to race on the whole.

from my experience they arent if youre among the top 4 on the grid... anything lower than that and the enjoyment quickly drops to 0

Lax on first offence but high standards on all servers was always the original goal - giving the chance to educate first, then getting the sledgehammer out.

i absolutely agree... and i think that if available there should be an admin present as often as humanly possible to speed the process up a little and make the sledgehammering much more immediate

But i've raced Redline and Conedodgers (the other popular servers when I was driving), so dont try to convince me that the CTRA is any worse.

we all know how redline operates and i cant say that i have ever raced on cd but its probably too popular
surely you must have raced on one of the smaller servers that attracts core community members or other more experienced drivers (eg odd compo and any server that doesnt offer instant gratification with cars any muppet can keep on track) at some point so you must know the difference and what i (and seemingly kev) consider a server with well behaved drivers

Zero tolerance is fine for speed hackers and wreckers, they wont learn, but for those racing incidents, those overlap misjudgements, those lesser rules where totalitarian actions dont help - where review of the replay is needed. Show me how a live admin does that for a 32 car field?

of course ther is no one who could do that
but specing one driver per race and putting him on the naughty stool (eg through preventing him from joining the race but not necessarily kicking or banning him) if he doesnt behave is easily possible and will get the message across much more quickly than the current system

[SamH]

surely you must have raced on one of the smaller servers that attracts core community members or other more experienced drivers
You're talking about core forum members - the ones with slide guitars, singing about how good the old S1 days were. The CTRA doesn't cater for them. The CTRA is about online racing, where the genuine, current, core LFSers are. The core racing community. Steering the CTRA according to the wishes of people who do LFS mostly via the "Post Reply" button and who don't race much or at all would be silly. We stopped doing that long ago, and we're better off for it.

[JohnnyFX]

I would agree with you that it takes a bit longer than Chris' estimate to complete a report. My other point in relation to this was that often it's difficult to know who to report when half a dozen or more drivers are equally culpable. Do you report them all or just assume that's the accepted standard of driving?

Should I raise a report like this after every race? I would spend more time reporting than racing, and more than likely see no improvement on the server anyway.

If you file the report from in the game you want to choose the current race to get the right replay. An yes, I too like to review the replays before sending them in, and quite often realise it was just a racing incident and don't file one when I do. But still, it doesn;t take all that long.
As far as who to report, if you're not sure, just pick whoever you are sure is guilty of something. The CTRA admins do a lot more then just review the reported incident when thye get a report. If they see other drivers violating CTRA rules they can open a new report and take action on that.

[Mille Sabords]

I tried a few races on race 1 yesterday.
Starting from the back of the grid, BLGP - T1 was not fast but no issue, go slowly through 2-3 cars taken out at the chicane, not bad for a grid of approx 20.
Overall good races, a few contacts due to awareness issues but nothing to end a race (apart from my own contact with a stack of tyres, that turned the car upside down :yel:
Overall very good races, more aggressive than DMR servers for example but is that necessary a bad thing? People fight harder on CTRA to be in the points, and try to win.

NAI- You are way too fast even with the XF. Add ballast :)

[J@tko]

NAI- You are way too fast even with the XF. Add ballast :)
Agreed :D:nod:

Yep, we had some great races last night.

I even had some podiums - not bad at all on a full server :razz:

[frokki]

Of all my 127 races in CTRA I've caused 2 accidents (tailgating under braking) that would meet the definition of wrecking, and been a victim once (well, twice but it was the same driver in the same race). At least my experience doesn't equal the ARSE article...

The general additude on the low level servers isn't as good as it could be, but that's something the system can't improve, only way to improve the general additude is to make those reports!

And bottomline - I think that CTRA has done good job in introducing racing etiquette for the masses. Clean Racers Club did it for me in 2005 (thanks stoney&co!), but CTRA touches thousands of casual gamers.

[Shotglass]

so you think the racing etiquette the current ctra tier1 crowd is a more desireable standard than the one youll find on servers full of drivers that have been around since s1 and show mutual respect?

[SamH]

so you think the racing etiquette the current ctra tier1 crowd is a more desireable standard than the one youll find on servers full of drivers that have been around since s1 and show mutual respect?
Is that directed to me?

[thisnameistaken]

so you think the racing etiquette the current ctra tier1 crowd is a more desireable standard than the one youll find on servers full of drivers that have been around since s1 and show mutual respect?

Nah I think he's saying that newbie drivers are online more often, so the server is tailored to them. Fair point, and nothing to do with driving standards.

[Shotglass]

Is that directed to me?

yup

and nothing to do with driving standards.

how so? the entire thread is about driving standards and i dont see how one would tailor a server for new drivers in any other wayn than being more lenient towards their lack of knowledge and in far too many cases appreciation for racing etiquette

[Hyperactive]

Nah I think he's saying that newbie drivers are online more often, so the server is tailored to them. Fair point, and nothing to do with driving standards.

...
The CTRA is about online racing, where the genuine, current, core LFSers are. The core racing community.
...

---
I don't think the bad habbits have anything to do with respect. It is just that people don't know that merging into traffic is bad, or racing with people who are lapping you is bad or people who dive in late or bump&nudge a lot. They just do it from the 1st race and then learn the pattern. I'm unsure whether it is a "casual gamer" problem or what that people don't know the rules. Maybe everyone needs to be told personally whenever they make a mistake and explain it why it was wrong and what they should have done... which is huge workload... :shrug:

[SamH]

the entire thread is about driving standards and i dont see how one would tailor a server for new drivers in any other wayn than being more lenient towards their lack of knowledge and in far too many cases appreciation for racing etiquette
No, the whole thread is supposed to be about comparing a structured league environment with a public racing system, resulting in a the claim of a wrecker problem on CTRA. Since then it's gone off at a tangent.

so you think the racing etiquette the current ctra tier1 crowd is a more desireable standard than the one youll find on servers full of drivers that have been around since s1 and show mutual respect?
Do you really think that's what I'm suggesting? :really:

Let's assume for a moment that this is what you think I'm suggesting. Please give me the name of this server that's supposedly full of drivers that are experienced and have been around since S1, so that I can fully appreciate the implications of the suggestion that I'm making. :really:

[nelson_trujillo]

Please give me the name of this server that's supposedly full of drivers that are experienced and have been around since S1
SS3?
:D

[Shotglass]

I don't think the bad habbits have anything to do with respect. It is just that people don't know that merging into traffic is bad, or racing with people who are lapping you is bad or people who dive in late or bump&nudge a lot.

but thats exactly it you either drive with respect for the guys around you which automatically leads to you not doing any of the things you listed or you only care for your own race and about winning which means that divebombing pushing drivers out of the way and rejoining without looking out for traffic are just fine to you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ctt23hidKQ

No, the whole thread is supposed to be about comparing a structured league environment with a public racing system, resulting in a the claim of a wrecker problem on CTRA. Since then it's gone off at a tangent.

which took us less than half a page so it is about driving standards now

Do you really think that's what I'm suggesting? :really:

no but you havent qualified what not catering to forum members and catering to the great unwashed of lfs instead is supposed to mean
so it was a challenge to get you to specify what thats supposed to mean
also so far in my experience the most glaring difference between the majority of forum members ive raced with (becky you kev ajp fel etc) and the crowd on the tier1 ctra servers is that i can trust the forum guys blindly to not do anything stupid whereas its almost the exact opposite with the tier1 crowd

Please give me the name of this server that's supposedly full of drivers that are experienced and have been around since S1, so that I can fully appreciate the implications of the suggestion that I'm making. :really:

i cant and as lfsw will show you with my thesis due in a month i havent had much time to drive in the last months so im out of the loop when it comes to finding good servers (although i suppose that finding a populated lfr or lx server is still a fairly good indicator that youll find a bunch of likeminded drivers)
but im sure you know what im on about and what kind of server im talking about because weve raced each other on one or two of them at some point

[Christopher Raemisch]

Not sure why this discussion is happening still.

Shotglass you said yourself the problem is mainly on the 1st tier servers through the fact that many of the Tier2+ drivers are drivers that have been around a while. These servers are going to have learning curves by people racing on them.

There is a reason why they are on tier1, and it's most usually not because they like the cars. It's because they are lacking in some critical racing skills that would enable them to earn the points to be lifted into Tier2. If feel that if you think that these drivers can, and should have the capacity, to be trusted in every racing situation there needs to be a rethink on that strategy.


I have seem some races in club racing and, on the whole, I don't see anything that much different in terms of mistakes between tier1 and the lowest level of club racing/gokarts. Infact I could probably go through u-tube and karting incidents where the whole field was taken out in T1 by a noob...

What I am trying to convey is that when racing on T1 there are many risky and dangerous moves that cannot be sucessfully completed because the people these moves are being put on will not understand the risks involved with these maneuvers. Currently the only way to see these incidents is to physically be involved in them and see the outcome. On the whole the drivers I have seen on Tier1 are trying their damn hardest to stay out of people's way and avoid incidents.

Tell me, did you crawl or walked before you started running? It takes time to develop complex racing skills and this has to be taken into consideration when running on T1, it's a beginner's server.

[SamH]

Kev was able to grasp my meaning, so I know the problem isn't necessarily my complete inability to communicate.

I understand what you are saying, yes. I just don't agree with you. My point is that the CTRA is a public racing environment.

Find a server that comprises healthily experienced racers that ALL drive with the respect due each other, whether from the S1 days or not, and what you are looking at is effectively a LEAGUE server, not an average public server - even if it's open to the public. You won't FIND a full server with that content anywhere else but in league racing.

Yes, you and I have raced together on servers where everybody drives in such a manner, but you will also remember that the server barely had ANY population besides us, and that a few idiots still joined, crashed a few times and left while we were spared their indiscretions - but that was good fortune, not design.

The CTRA is not the perfect racing environment, and if I've given anyone the impression that I think it is then I humbly apologise. Race 1 and Single Seater 1 are scoops. They provide more than the un-InSim'd pickup server offers in terms of structure. Yes, I know Kev hates the points system, but it's popular and it's a means to an end. CTRA also has automatic race restarts, which is better than an hour-old list of some race or other and some thick black T1 donuts, and it helps to keep up the interest of people racing on LFS. I think most people enjoy it for the fact that they know for a fact that a race WILL be starting soon after the last one ends.

I think you should accept that even the road to F1 starts with a bunch of knackered rental karts, and that even the Empire State Building has a ground floor. Regard us as the doorman, or the elevator guy. If it helps, picture us with those silly hats with the elastic chin-band.. but kindly cut us some slack, cos we're doing what we can because we believe it's a good thing overall.

[Toddshooter]

also so far in my experience the most glaring difference between the majority of forum members ive raced with (becky you kev ajp fel etc) and the crowd on the tier1 ctra servers is that i can trust the forum guys blindly to not do anything stupid whereas its almost the exact opposite with the tier1 crowd



But this is exactly what race 1 is for! Learning the race craft. I was from day one a respectful driver on CTRA Race 1. But I still plowed into turn one a few times because I didn't have the car control or the racing knowledge to back it up.

Most of the drivers there also show that respect if their mistakes are pointed out to them. Instead of calling them a Noob people should be giving advice.
Or if its really bad do a report them.

[JohnnyFX]

but thats exactly it you either {type} with respect for the guys {reading} you{r words} which automatically leads to you {using punctuation} or you only care for your own {opinions} which means {using long, rambling, unreadable run-on sentences.}



[quote=Shotglass;805447]but thats exactly it you either drive with respect for the guys around you which automatically leads to you not doing any of the things you listed or you only care for your own race and about winning which means that divebombing pushing drivers out of the way and rejoining without looking out for traffic are just fine to you

[Shotglass]

If feel that if you think that these drivers can, and should have the capacity, to be trusted in every racing situation there needs to be a rethink on that strategy.

i understand that expecting them to drive flawlessly would be far far over the top and neither would i expect that of any of the guys i mentioned
but while i see that a tier1 driver isnt required to have the ability to be trusted blindly he should at least try to not drive in a way that you have to expect him crashing into your car or turn from speeding car to mobile chicane any second

I have seem some races in club racing and, on the whole, I don't see anything that much different in terms of mistakes between tier1 and the lowest level of club racing/gokarts. Infact I could probably go through u-tube and karting incidents where the whole field was taken out in T1 by a noob...

and we all know how the forum thinks about karters and their impressive balls collections

Tell me, did you crawl or walked before you started running?

bit too long ago to remember but a while ago my mom told me that i was rather old when i first started talking... but unlike most kids i talked in complete sentences right away
point is im a bit of a perfectionist and approach racing in a very similar way
when i start up the server browser and find a combo that sounds interesting but is one ive never practiced on ill usually go back to single player and practice till im up to speed... the result is usually that by the time im reasonably competitive and able to string a couple of laps together without crashing its 3 days later and the combo has become unpopular which is one of the reasons for my low online mileage

i just dont get the feeling that many tier1 drivers apply the same standards for their ability not to drive like a muppet to themself as i do to myself

Kev was able to grasp my meaning, so I know the problem isn't necessarily my complete inability to communicate.

thats not what i wanted to say... you coomunicated very clearly but both you and kev didnt put any substance into what a newbie server should be
if new drivers are the target audience then i dont think opening a server that was created with the intention to concentrate all of lfs' muppets in one server (and becky should know the whole system is her idea) then i dont think the server does a very good job at catering to rookies

You won't FIND a full server with that content anywhere else but in league racing.

believe me i know that but from my experience driving with you i imagine youd like to see such servers as much as i do and i dont think that the ctra tier1 servers do a very good job at educating new drivers to become regulars at such an imaginary ideal server

the problem i see is in the number of reports both raised and dealt with... the relatively large number of dismissed reports seems to indicate that the lax treatment for first time offenders often conists of doing nothing and the sledgehammer will rarely come out at all
in turn this also doesnt give much confidence that theres a point in raising a report... as kev said you cant really report 10 people per race and if the reports a dealt with too lax theres no reason to go though the hassle of reporting at all

[thisnameistaken]

Had a race on the bottom-tier XFG/XRG server tonight and it wasn't nearly as bad as the FBM server, despite running FE rally-x green. First couple of turns were typically newbie but after that the only real issue was mid-race joins into traffic. The slower drivers did a generally good job of letting the leaders through, too.

Maybe the single-seaters just attract a different sort of driver, but I haven't managed to have a clean race on there at all.

[dawesdust_12]

Kev, as an aside: Where do you think I see the most reports for stupid stuff?

[SamH]

i just dont get the feeling that many tier1 drivers apply the same standards for their ability not to drive like a muppet to themself as i do to myself
Tier 1 drivers are not seasoned, experienced racers like you and I. They think they have a really good and solid ability to drive, and that everyone around them is made up of nob-cheese. That's fairly normal. The process we follow is intended (forget for a moment whether it works or not) to coax newer drivers into understanding the responsibilities they bear when racing with other drivers, by first advising them of their error (unless, as happens occasionally, they're obviously there just to wreck or whatever) and giving them an opportunity to turn it around.

Todd actually describes the classic new LFS driver in describing his own beginnings. In our experience, so very few drivers intentionally demonstrate a disregard for other racers.. they race mostly in blissful ignorance. We just chose not to write them off, because we found out very early on, back in the STCC server days that if you give them the information they need, they'll use it to get better. They just need to realise that they do NEED to get better. You often don't know what you don't know.

Of course it doesn't take, for some. In our experience this is generally so with RL karters (not exclusively, but classically). You can't tell them anything about tintop racing because they think they're the bees gonads, cuz they scrape their asses around a RC car track, sitting over a steel bar with wheels at either end when they're not in LFS. I won't name names, and I don't know if you'd be surprised or not, how many of them have absolutely no ability to fathom why they're permanently banned from CTRA servers. Last one I heard was that it's because we know they're better than us at racing and we're jealous.

if new drivers are the target audience then i dont think opening a server that was created with the intention to concentrate all of lfs' muppets in one server (and becky should know the whole system is her idea) then i dont think the server does a very good job at catering to rookies
You're talking about a logistical impossibility. The tier 1 servers that we provide are open to anyone that wishes to race on them, provided they keep to the rules we set. As I explained before, we try to educate first and legislate where needed. We cannot, and do not presume to, be the only place for newcomers to race. We provide what we provide because we believe it's good for LFS. Rightly or wrongly, we believe that. CTRA is optional.


believe me i know that but from my experience driving with you i imagine youd like to see such servers as much as i do and i dont think that the ctra tier1 servers do a very good job at educating new drivers to become regulars at such an imaginary ideal server
This is what the 2nd tier and 3rd tier are about. Tier 1 isn't about creating a utopia in tier 1, it's about creating a utopia in tier 2 and tier 3. Of course we'll never perfect that either, but I think we've done a bloody good job of making sure that the higher tiers are where some damn good racing happens.
the problem i see is in the number of reports both raised and dealt with... the relatively large number of dismissed reports seems to indicate that the lax treatment for first time offenders often conists of doing nothing and the sledgehammer will rarely come out at all
in turn this also doesnt give much confidence that theres a point in raising a report... as kev said you cant really report 10 people per race and if the reports a dealt with too lax theres no reason to go though the hassle of reporting at all
You're taking numbers and trying to crunch them without enough information to take measurements. We dismiss reports either where the cause of an accident is lag, or where the fault cannot be fairly apportioned between the person reporting and the person they are reporting, or where the person filing the report has picked the wrong replay, had the report returned to them only to have them resubmit the report without making changes - i.e. we can't find what the hell they're talking about in the replay. Lastly but not least, we will dismiss reports if they are duplicates of other peoples' reports - i.e. two people witnessing and reporting the same incident. At a rough estimate, I would say about 30% of all dismissed reports are dismissed for this reason, and these days we ensure that they are dismissed with a direct reference made in the response to the report that was actioned. IF we can find evidence to substantiate a report's content, we will issue a warning at minimum. We never dismiss a report because we are lax about our rules, ever.

The "why should I bother raising reports, it's so much hassle and it gives me a headache, and you'll probably dismiss it anyway so what's the point and by the way the racing in your servers are crap, I thought you should know and I don't know why I bother ever going in there" conversations are exhausting and exhaustive. I don't wanna do them any more. I feel all talked out, tbh. So feel free to talk amongst yourselves, but I'm fried. :shrug: