how much steering is best

[lerts]

so far ive been driving with forces on and tryed to keep front wheels on green but i took a look at wr and he enters every corner with the front wheels on red

so how do i know how much steering should i imput?

[mattlikespeoples]

as little as possible. the more you steer the more friction you produce. drive less to drive faster

[Batterypark]

Just enough, but not too much.

[BenjiMC]

On turn in a lot of the time you will see the fronts go red. Lots of people seem to use the understeer and friction caused to slow the car down more. I prefer to barely steer and use the brakes to push the back round into corners. Also depends what car your in though. FWD cars will naturally understeer into corners.

To answer your question though, it all depends on the type of corner. fast corners then you barely turn, slower corners use the understeer driving style like you mentioned seeing.

[JeffR]

When slowing and turning, such as corner entry, turning the fronts inwards to induce some understeer will prevent excessive oversteer. By modulating the amount of induced understeer, a driver can control the amount of oversteer, and maintain an near 4 wheel drift.

This method of using driver induced understeer is also used if driving a low or zero downforce car in a very high speed turn with the throttle pegged. Other than ovals, LFS doesn't have any tracks with flat out high speed turns, but Grand Prix Legends and real world tracks of the 1960's had some pretty scary turns, for example, a 190mph turn at the old Spa (in a 1967 F1 race car).

Moderate to high downforce cars are setup with more relative rear downforce than front downforce to prevent snap oversteer in high g turns, and driver induced understeer isn't needed (or wanted).

[Profi]

JeffR:

Oops, never heard of that before. Sounds quite Alonsoish :)
The tires must have been made of steel those days if they could take it...

[Woz]

so far ive been driving with forces on and tryed to keep front wheels on green but i took a look at wr and he enters every corner with the front wheels on red

so how do i know how much steering should i imput?

Ignore wr laps they are not race pace, think of them as qualify sessions. You go out, put in the lap and come back into change your tyres. It is impossible to maintain WR pace in race longer than a few laps, the tyres would not take it.

[Gentlefoot]

It is impossible to maintain WR pace in race longer than a few laps, the tyres would not take it.


That's not strictly true.

Those of us who compete in longer races know that R2s can be just as fast as R1s when they have done 20 odd laps and they start to wear thin and cool. And the last few laps before they pop, say after an hours worth of running, they generate huge amounts of grip and very little scrub.

Road tyres behave in a similar way after they begin to wear thin.

Ofcourse this only works if you have run aggressive pressures that meant the tyres got very hot between say 5 and 10 laps. This means they don't get too cold when they wear thin.

Just to illustrate, I have set some of my PBs on R2s in the FOX after 30 odd laps. You just have to get through that hot stage the tyres go through in their lifecycle.

[Nick A]

Also, I noticed that R2s have lower rolling resistance to R1s so the difference between R1s and R2s in their peak condition can be very small.

[thisnameistaken]

Steering is merely a technique used to discover how much more braking you should've done.

[Gnomie]

Ofcourse this only works if you have run aggressive pressures that meant the tyres got very hot between say 5 and 10 laps. This means they don't get too cold when they wear thin.
.
What about cambers? I always get scared when I see that the inside of the tires warm up significantly faster. Therefore, for long races I lower the cambers to get a more flat temperature profile. But then my "problem" is that no part of the tyre ever gets orange/red, they all stay green until they get so worn that they go blue at the end of the race. I don't think this is optimal, either.. (I've only tried long races with the RAC/LX6/XRT/URF/FO8)

[nihil]

Steering is merely a technique used to discover how much more braking you should've done.

LOL.... Damn, that almost tempts me to give a **** about my sig!

[Gentlefoot]

What about cambers? I always get scared when I see that the inside of the tires warm up significantly faster. Therefore, for long races I lower the cambers to get a more flat temperature profile. But then my "problem" is that no part of the tyre ever gets orange/red, they all stay green until they get so worn that they go blue at the end of the race. I don't think this is optimal, either.. (I've only tried long races with the RAC/LX6/XRT/URF/FO8)

I run the same cambers for a short run as I would for a long race. I do find however that R1s work better with a touch more neg camber than R2s.

When the tyres go through the hot patch you have to amend your driving style to manage the temps for a few laps in order to maintain some reasonable level of grip. You can also set the front rear temp balance so that when they go through the hot stage you will suffer from understeer or oversteer depending on if the fronts get hotter than the rears or not.

[lerts]

i dont like this:

force beedback doesnt tell you when your front wheels are skidding

gtr2 and race 07 tell when your front wheels skid with ff becomes soft

it cant be these 2 games are wrong and lfs right

in fact im saving to buy one of this games instead of lfs but i hope in a future patch this get fixed which would bring me back

[Gentlefoot]

i dont like this:

force beedback doesnt tell you when your front wheels are skidding

gtr2 and race 07 tell when your front wheels skid with ff becomes soft

it cant be these 2 games are wrong and lfs right

in fact im saving to buy one of this games instead of lfs but i hope in a future patch this get fixed which would bring me back


FFB is fine. I can tell when the front is sliding. I can also tell when the rear begins to slide. I can even tell the difference between one of the rear wheels spinning up or both of them.

From FFB I can tell if I don't have enough front rebound.

The FFB and other sensory information in LFS is so good that I can tell whether I need a touch more front bump damping, more front spring rate or more front ARB and these situations ALL feel different.

But then I have been playing this game for 3 years and so I have become used to the feedback it gives.

How long have you been playing? You may just need more time to get a feel for it.

[egghed6]

nice tips :thumb:

[spanks]

also, unless you're on ice or something...I don't think your wheel suddenly becomes light enough to turn with one finger

I've never understeered in a manual steering car, but have in my car with power steering. You don't get feedback from the wheel through difficulty to turn, more the car isn't going where you're telling it to, and you can feel the tires slipping.

In a go kart I didn't get a light steering experience either

Also, I think the ffb is just fine.

[AndroidXP]

...What FF settings are you using? Because I want them.

I mean, I can sense similar things too, but I'm 99% sure most of these inputs are actually visual and not coming from the force feedback for me. The FF is nice, but most detail gets drowned out either due to clipping (max FF reached) or inadequate FF hardware (tiny force variations get lost when for example a generic "pull 50% left" is in effect). Considering how sometimes even brutal kerbs are not registered in the FF at all, I seriously doubt it can convey that much information. For example simple understeer (steer without throttle) is completely undetectable for me purely through FF. The way I notice it is when I sense the visual car rotation being less than what it should be for the current wheel position, but that has nothing to do with FF.

The question is, what do you feel because you want to feel it (fabrication of the mind), and what do you actually feel?

[lerts]

i have a logitech formula force ex can it be the wheel?

what wheel are you using?

could i improve my ff tweaking it?

[Gentlefoot]

well definately the power diff locking and whether the inside rear wheel is spinning or not is a combination of both things. When the inside wheel spins up the steering FFB kicks less than when both wheels are spinning but also you get the visual input of the back sliding more when both rears light up. In addition the sound of the revs rising and how it behaves is also a very big indicator of the amount of diff lock.

Front rebound I can only setup by feel through the FFB. It's all clonky and horrible when there isn't enough. If there is too much you deaden the feedback (and also understeers off curbs and stuff which is visual mainly).

FFB gives me very good feedback as to whether the car is too stiff at the back or not. If it is the steering feels very light.

So yeah, I can feel all this stuff through my G25 - wheel setup can be found here: http://gentlefoot.com/LFS/Images/LFScontrols.JPG

[AndroidXP]

well definately the power diff locking and whether the inside rear wheel is spinning or not is a combination of both things. When the inside wheel spins up the steering FFB kicks less than when both wheels are spinningThat is understandable, yes, when both wheels spin you obviously have much more body rotation. Oversteer in RWD cars is feelable, since it mainly happens around the big FF switch from left to right or vice versa.
but also you get the visual input of the back sliding more when both rears light up. In addition the sound of the revs rising and how it behaves is also a very big indicator of the amount of diff lock.That's kind of my point. It's mainly visual and aural, but barely any info comes through the FF, other than the very basic "where do the wheels point at" feedback, which is much more useful in RWD than FWD cars, as you only really notice it when the FF direction reverses. Changes in one-directional FF strength due to "things" happening are almost non-existent apart from heavy bumps and extreme situations such as both front wheels spinning or locking up.

FFB gives me very good feedback as to whether the car is too stiff at the back or not. If it is the steering feels very light.

Somehow I believe the most you feel is how light the wheel gets (due to the understeer-to-slight-oversteer transition), depending on how oversteery the car is, and how quickly it happens. Other than that there isn't really anything happening, at least when I try to turn off my experiences and objectively feel what the FF actually transmits.

However, good if it works for you :)
So yeah, I can feel all this stuff through my G25 - wheel setup can be found here: http://gentlefoot.com/LFS/Images/LFScontrols.JPG
105% ingame FF at 220° rotation!? How do you feel anything but on/off forces? :really: :shrug:
Though maybe this is good to maximise the information you get from the left<>right FF switch, whereas the other turn resistance that you only feel as full force (instead of a gradual buildup like with lower FF%) is useless anyway.

[Nick A]

Noticed you're using 105% FF strength GF, will have to give that a go. I think mine's only set to 70% - need to work on my biceps :eclipsee_

[Woz]

That's not strictly true.

Those of us who compete in longer races know that R2s can be just as fast as R1s when they have done 20 odd laps and they start to wear thin and cool. And the last few laps before they pop, say after an hours worth of running, they generate huge amounts of grip and very little scrub.

Road tyres behave in a similar way after they begin to wear thin.

Ofcourse this only works if you have run aggressive pressures that meant the tyres got very hot between say 5 and 10 laps. This means they don't get too cold when they wear thin.

Just to illustrate, I have set some of my PBs on R2s in the FOX after 30 odd laps. You just have to get through that hot stage the tyres go through in their lifecycle.

So as I said and you have confirmed, it is impossible to run WR pace every lap for a long race. Your either have to run soft tyres and suffer the heat or run harder tyres and wait for them to come good and wear down.

How far is your PB you set off the related WR btw? :)

Most WR laps from what I know are a one shot attempt with a set done to exploit the most gains with no reguard for the mechanical sympathy of the car. If you tried to drive like that for a 50 lap race you would be in the pits every few laps or in the wall. Racing is about your overall time not lap times. Do you run slower to minimise pit time or push hoping the gains made on the track counteract the time in the pits etc.

i dont like this:

force beedback doesnt tell you when your front wheels are skidding

gtr2 and race 07 tell when your front wheels skid with ff becomes soft

it cant be these 2 games are wrong and lfs right

in fact im saving to buy one of this games instead of lfs but i hope in a future patch this get fixed which would bring me back

Actually GTR2, Race and EVERY sim based on the ISI engine is wrong when it comes to understeer. Steering does not go light IRL like ISI try to make you believe :)

[evilpimp]

@Woz - I think Gentlefoot's right on that because in IGTC for example Rudy did beat his pb and WR near his last laps of the race on R3's that had gotten thin. The laptime was even better then the quali time if I remember correctly.

[JeffR]

When slowing and turning, such as corner entry, turning the fronts inwards to induce some understeer will prevent excessive oversteer. By modulating the amount of induced understeer, a driver can control the amount of oversteer, and maintain an near 4 wheel drift.
Never heard of that before. The tires must have been made of steel those days if they could take it.I've corresponded via email with a few club racers in non-downforce classes and this method is still used on some cars, usually mid-engine cars which are considered evil, oversteering monsters. One guy mentioned that driver induced understeer was the only way to keep his spec class Clio facing forwards when pushed to the limits.

Although induced understeer would seem like it would cook the tires, it doesn't, as the understeer isn't so extreme to be actually sliding the tires. One way to describe it's usage is as an alternative to trail braking on twitchy (oversteer prone) cars.

[JeffR]

Actually GTR2, Race and EVERY sim based on the ISI engine is wrong when it comes to understeer. Steering does not go light IRL like ISI try to make you believeIt does on some race cars, depending on caster and camber settings, the type and size of tires, ... I've noticed this on some go-karts. ISI games exaggerate the decrease in caster effect, but I don't have a problem with exaggerated effect in order to compensate for the lack of real physical forces while sitting in my chair staring at a monitor.

[Gentlefoot]

How far is your PB you set off the related WR btw? :)


Well, generally my PBs are about half a second off WR pace over a long lap. On shorter circuits I can generally get within 2 or 3 tenths.


Most WR laps from what I know are a one shot attempt with a set done to exploit the most gains with no reguard for the mechanical sympathy of the car. If you tried to drive like that for a 50 lap race you would be in the pits every few laps or in the wall. Racing is about your overall time not lap times. Do you run slower to minimise pit time or push hoping the gains made on the track counteract the time in the pits etc.


Again, not strictly true. Have a look at the race results for the last two rounds of the GFC races (rounds 2 and 3). You can see all the race results here:

http://www.gentlefoot.com/LFS/forum/viewforum.php?f=30 (http://www.gentlefoot.com/LFS/forum/viewforum.php?f=30&sid=82fe11b1b96530163c0a65ba02e64b02)

You can see by the lap-by-lap results that the fox winners of both these races were running pretty close to WR (within half a second allowing for full fuel tanks) consistently for approximately 75 minutes. In both these races the eventual winners drove at this pace for the full 75 minutes without error.

That is the standard that is required to win races in the GFC nowadays.

[frokki]

105% ingame FF at 220° rotation!? How do you feel anything but on/off forces? :really: :shrug:I'd like to ask the same thing. G25 ffb is clipping a lot at even 50% of ingame force! :really::shrug:

I seriously doubt that you could feel even more if you toned the ffb level down to 20-30%.

[lerts]

"Actually GTR2, Race and EVERY sim based on the ISI engine is wrong when it comes to understeer. Steering does not go light IRL like ISI try to make you believe :)"

so gtr2 race07 and rfactor wheel goes light when front wheels skid because they belong to isi?

well i just tested toca3 and wheel goes light with front wheels skidding

so i understand all main simulators in the market, this last 4 want to make us believe something false except lfs

wow thats exactly what happens to me the whole world is crazy but me

[Turbo Dad]

....So yeah, I can feel all this stuff through my G25 - wheel setup can be found here: http://gentlefoot.com/LFS/Images/LFScontrols.JPG

So what's your thinking behind 270 deg in profiler and 220 ingame with wheel turn compensation at 1 , when you have a G25 ?
Which car is this for,the mrt ?

Or do you change the wheel rotation per car ?

[evilpimp]

"Actually GTR2, Race and EVERY sim based on the ISI engine is wrong when it comes to understeer. Steering does not go light IRL like ISI try to make you believe :)"

so gtr2 race07 and rfactor wheel goes light when front wheels skid because they belong to isi?

well i just tested toca3 and wheel goes light with front wheels skidding

so i understand all main simulators in the market, this last 4 want to make us believe something false except lfs

wow thats exactly what happens to me the whole world is crazy but me

My G25, DFP and Momo go light when the front wheels let go completly... But then again it depends on how much they're still hanging on. For example if you pop the front tires and try to turn the wheel WILL feel extremly light. When its really hot and worn tires it does go pretty light. If you still have them with maximum grip and you turn it wont go as light.

SO, imo, it depends on the conditions of the tires.

[lerts]

then maybe is the formula force ex

so if i try a momo will the wheel feel lighter with oversteering?

[Woz]

"Actually GTR2, Race and EVERY sim based on the ISI engine is wrong when it comes to understeer. Steering does not go light IRL like ISI try to make you believe "

so gtr2 race07 and rfactor wheel goes light when front wheels skid because they belong to isi?

well i just tested toca3 and wheel goes light with front wheels skidding

so i understand all main simulators in the market, this last 4 want to make us believe something false except lfs

wow thats exactly what happens to me the whole world is crazy but me

All ISI sims try to work out what state the car is in then merge a selection of FF effects to create what they think you should be feeling through the steering wheel. It is well known that ISI sims are VERY VERY overdone in an understeer situation. Just look on RSC, there are loads of thread where people put forward their own setting on how the effects are mixed to make it feel more natural.

BTW: The Toca games physics are more arcade than real so ignore what that or any other "game" tell you with FFB.

The sims you should be looking at for correct behaviour (Or more realistic behaviour) are LFS, NK, NKP and RBR. All of these sims work out the forces that are acting on the front wheels and transmit those up the steering column. They are all driven off the physics engine directly and not through an effects calculator.

IRL most of the time the steering never goes light like in ISI and the other games you talk about. They give the light steer effect because you are missing the feeling of G (seat of the pants feel) that tells you when you are in understeer etc. It is an aid BUT it is WRONG.

I can't see you age from your profile but if you are old enough to drive take your car to an EMPTY large parking lot and try for yourself.

What happens is that as you add steering lock you feel pressure build and then as you start to understeer the pressure will stop rising BUT not drop unless you get really out of shape. This can be felt as a drop to some people because your brain expects the forces to keep rising but they just level.

Some conditions like wet tarmac etc will effect the feel and if you have a FWD car and push too much power through the wheels they will get lighter if you spin them by putting too much power through them.

What you feel through the steering IRL is very setup, situation and weather conditions dependent along with if your cars power steering etc mask the subtle feelings etc. In the end of the day, most of the feel while driving comes through your body via G force, the steering does not give as much info as some people believe. The FF in LFS is not as bad as you think, you are just getting body feel and steering feel confused :)

This is why the real-feel plugin was created for ISI sims, the original FF is so poor its just a joke.

[evilpimp]

then maybe is the formula force ex

so if i try a momo will the wheel feel lighter with oversteering?

I tested again in G25 and indeed if the tires are still cold or ''green'' so a bit warm it won't be light. However burn them a little and get the to red and it should be lighter when you understeer.

[Gentlefoot]

So what's your thinking behind 270 deg in profiler and 220 ingame with wheel turn compensation at 1 , when you have a G25 ?
Which car is this for,the mrt ?

Or do you change the wheel rotation per car ?

Wheel comp at 1 just means the amount of lock added is a bit more consistent.

Yeah - I change the rotation for different cars. But I nearly always drive the FOX. I would use these settings for any single seater but tend to increase the rotation for road/gtr cars.

[Toddshooter]

On a steering note. For those of you not fortunate enough to have a G25......(This includes me:)) What I have found the last little while is, if you reduce the steering % down from 30 degrees to lets say 20 degrees you get way more precis steering. My wheel is a Logitech formula force GP.

This has helped my driving considerable.

[Gnomie]

What effect does this have compared to simply lowering the degrees of rotation?

[Toddshooter]

What effect does this have compared to simply lowering the degrees of rotation?

I don't know for sure...all I know is my wheel only turns 180 from lock to lock. By lowering the degrees, I have felt the steering be more precis, I don't know why it just is for me.

Maybe someone with more knowledge can tell me if I'm full of shit or not.:nod:

[Woz]

I don't know for sure...all I know is my wheel only turns 180 from lock to lock. By lowering the degrees, I have felt the steering be more precis, I don't know why it just is for me.

Maybe someone with more knowledge can tell me if I'm full of shit or not.:nod:

That is normal. A big GTR style car might only run with 15deg at the wheels while having 540deg steering lock. It is normally forced on them by the car geometry and what they can get away with in the wheel arch.

What it means is you are turning the wheel more to get the same effect so it feels less snappy. 360deg steering lock with 15deg on the wheels is the same as 720deg with 30deg on the wheels feel wise, you just cant get the same extreme to catch when out of shape.

[Gnomie]

What it means is you are turning the wheel more to get the same effect so it feels less snappy. 360deg steering lock with 15deg on the wheels is the same as 720deg with 30deg on the wheels feel wise, you just cant get the same extreme to catch when out of shape.
That makes sense. :)

[Toddshooter]

That is normal. A big GTR style car might only run with 15deg at the wheels while having 540deg steering lock. It is normally forced on them by the car geometry and what they can get away with in the wheel arch.

What it means is you are turning the wheel more to get the same effect so it feels less snappy. 360deg steering lock with 15deg on the wheels is the same as 720deg with 30deg on the wheels feel wise, you just cant get the same extreme to catch when out of shape.

Thanks for confirming my sanity for another day at least:D

[Alias Driver]

it cant be these 2 games are wrong and lfs right

Why? Until somebody actual gets something right, everyone else is getting it wrong.

Just saying is all ;)