STCC Season 2 Tech-Talk [Archive]

Becky Rose

12th May 2008, 13:14

I've decided to start posting spoilers and information on things as development goes on, progress isnt going to be fast because i'm taking my time but i'll announce stuff as I get it done.

So I can start by telling you about the STCC starting system that was used at the last race of season 1. Season 2 will use this at every round for the 3rd heat race and feature race. It features the drivers taking part in a tyre-warming lap followed by a standing start. I do plan to further develop the technology that sits behind this a little from the admins perspective, but the system is in a working state right now and has been tested and works.

Another thing that will change is that there will no longer be a complex points balancing system for the 3 car types. It worked very well for us last year but it was too complicated to explain to viewers. So we're rebalancing the classes in a whole new way in season 2 - but for the details you'll have to wait for now. Rest assured, it's something new! It has been developed and beta-tested and works, but again I plan to refine it before the season starts so i'll talk more about it later on.

I'm still keen to see a hot hatch style car and a bit more variety than the 3 car types used in the STCC, but i'm not going to the extreme of ballast and intake restrictions to make it happen - for now we'll stick to the 3 TBO cars, but I have made some ground in this area. Ideally though i'd like for LFS to add 2 or 3 new car types with comparable performance to the TBO's, but I guess I have to keep wishing on that one for now!

Compulsory pitstops have been introduced for every round. I always wanted to avoid it before because LFS' crewless pitstops look fairly numpty next to the beauty of GTR2's, but I figured that cramming the pit lane full of cars over a couple of laps add it's own form of spectacle so new regulations are being introduced to create some intense pit lane action in a narrow 3 lap window. Strategy will still play its part though because of changes coming to tyre regulations - but I need a change in LFS to make this happen and have some ground work to do before sending a request.

Dennis93

12th May 2008, 20:36

Really, really, nice idea about the pit window (3 laps) thats very exiting,

In wich of seeing more cars, would that be like have the FZ5 and RAC comming together with TBO, though with Restrictions?, that could be nice :) but in some way it just ruins the main part of Touring cars. i dont know:shrug:

as a tight Fan of STCC i cant wait for the Season to start again. :D

Good luck with it Becky:thumbsup:

Becky Rose

12th May 2008, 21:03

I'm specifically not doing that. Whilst i'd like some more car shapes in the series i'm not prepared to go so far as to bring down higher classed cars, there would be too much disparity in performance across the season.

Thank you for your kind comments though, i'm hoping it will be a great success.

Jakg

12th May 2008, 21:36

Go Becky.

Although I wont be racing, if you need any help from me then i'll be sure to try - I want you to know that I hold no ill feeling towards you.

thisnameistaken

12th May 2008, 21:38

IIRC in the last series you picked the shortest tracks to keep the racing close, and even employed "safety cars" if the field got too spread out, to try to make good TV out of it. Don't you think adding a warm-up lap and pit stops will have the opposite effect? Making the show less interesting to watch?

Becky Rose

12th May 2008, 21:45

In fairness the SC deployed for crashed cars not just because the field was spread out - but yeah, if it didnt have the effect of regrouping the field I wouldnt do it :).

The warmup lap is because the current pre-show is week, it gives us some quality and easy to produce footage to use to introduce the show.

Pit stops are something i've ummed and arred over, last season we did it one round as a special feature and it sort of worked although under those regulations I was glad it wasnt every race.

The plan with this system is three fold in terms of action.

We get the pit dance itself with at least 10 cars pitting each lap, making the pits extremely busy.
We get a few laps of 'clear track' sprint running for battling cars like you see in F1 but without it dominating the whole race and being the only time cars pass each other.
We get the chance to change tyre compound, combined with new regulations on use of road normal and road super tyres we'll be seeing drivers run some of their race on less than optimal tyres - creating disparity in performance which should increase the ontrack action.Ultimately it's because I think these things will add to the spectacle that i'm introducing them.

March Hare

13th May 2008, 07:13

Becky Rose

13th May 2008, 08:23

Great news Becky :thumb:

About the tyre rule. So drivers will be required to use both compounds in a race?
This could be very interesting. Unless, of cource, all of them use the same tyres at the same time.
That's the current plan yes, although i've got to check out a small issue with the plans and possibly ask for a change in LFS because of a side effect of this, so it's not 100% confirmed yet.

I dont see all 30 cars using the same tyres at each end of the race, but even if it did the change in grip levels might still give us the odd moment :)

Becky Rose

13th May 2008, 08:38

March Hare

13th May 2008, 09:54

The tyre change at pitstop will make them a bit longer than the usual "stop&go".

Should the numbers be a bit bigger?
As this is going to be broadcasted, or so I've led myself to believe, shouldn't the numbers be big enough to be easily recognised when watching the race?

How much control are the teams going to have on their own skin? Are there, infact, going to be teams?

TFalke55

13th May 2008, 09:56

I've nearly finished a piece of software that will ensure all car skins have the same idents, in addition to clear numbering each side drivers will be identifyable by their name written in bold across the top of the bonnet, along with their national flag, i've not added the flag yet on this picture. Various other small details are added in a uniform manner so that all cars are consistent in their appearance.

http://www.bansheestudios.com/pics/DefaultDecals.jpg

hmm... I did make a remake of the FIA WTCC Numberboard a couple of months ago. Maybe I can do something similar for you. I attatched a pic of a tweaked version of it. The black area can be used for a sponsor. I have this numberboard as .pspimage in 1000*1000. Or I can do a "totally new". I also have one in DTM style.

zeugnimod

13th May 2008, 16:08

Do you know yet if the qualifying races will be with XFG again? :shy:

Becky Rose

13th May 2008, 16:39

I havnt decided what i'll do for the qualifying event yet, I want to get everything else ready first.

dawesdust_12

13th May 2008, 18:21

Go Becky.

Although I wont be racing, if you need any help from me then i'll be sure to try - I want you to know that I hold no ill feeling towards you.

Come on Jack, you know you want to join me in a RB4!

Dru

13th May 2008, 23:32

Come on Jack, you know you want to join me in a RB4!

Thought Becky said something about maybe being 18.....

you might have to wait for Season 4 mate :razz:

dawesdust_12

14th May 2008, 00:47

Yeah, but I'm part of the spectacle, I am the only Canuck. Without me, the world would be...

DOOMED!

Dru

14th May 2008, 07:32

Yeah, but I'm part of the spectacle, I am the only Canuck. Without me, the world would be...

DOOMED!

Becky maybe able to take that risk..... :x :razz:

Becky Rose

14th May 2008, 14:45

Sorry I missed these questions from March Hare earlier
The tyre change at pitstop will make them a bit longer than the usual "stop&go".
Yes, at some tracks pitted cars may even run a lap down during the change over, it's gonna be interesting :)

Should the numbers be a bit bigger?
As this is going to be broadcasted, or so I've led myself to believe, shouldn't the numbers be big enough to be easily recognised when watching the race?
Yes and infact i've already increased the font size since that picture was taken, its a sad fact but at TV resolution the numbers are quite hard to read which is why i've gone for strong constracting colours and i've made each drivers number a different colour to help identify which car it is.

How much control are the teams going to have on their own skin? Are there, infact, going to be teams?
There will be 18 teams of 2 cars each, with a third optional test driver (more details on that much later). I'm not going to design 18 skins so LFS teams can use their own but there will be some strict regulations on them along the lines of:

No advertisements, even LFS brands (I dont want LFS brands on all cars there just isnt enough variety).
Drivers who leave their LFS team remain in the team as far as the STCC is concerned until season end. Seriously. I cant have drivers changing skins because Paul said something Steven didnt like so Harry quit and John left in support of Harry...
If I take an advertisement booking i'm redesigning your skin and modifying your team name "[sponsor] LFS Team" whether you like it or not :)

TFalke55

14th May 2008, 18:40

Drivers who leave their LFS team remain in the team as far as the STCC is concerned until season end. Seriously. I cant have drivers changing skins because Paul said something Steven didnt like so Harry quit and John left in support of Harry...
hmm maybe something like the OneGP System would be better. There are going to be 18 managers, one for one team. They are doing "contracts" with the drivers, binding them to STCC and this team for the rest of the season. And the "Testdrivers" can be seen more as subsitute drivers, to gurantee a full grid racing. So you can avoid that inner-team problems affect the STCC teams too much. Also the managers are responsable for the skins. That means, when you find a sponsor, you just have to inform the manager, change the team name on the website. The managers have to do the skin work.
No advertisements, even LFS brands (I dont want LFS brands on all cars there just isnt enough variety).If I take an advertisement booking i'm redesigning your skin and modifying your team name "[sponsor] LFS Team" whether you like it or not :)
hmm... just must think of a CounterStrike Team called "AMD Team64", wich was formed by AMD. If they raced LFS and raced STCC they would get Intel as main sponsor by STCC :D
I know that this sponsorship system is used quiet a lot. Indirectly in Nascar for example. You call it the m&m car, for example, or the mobil 1 car, although there are teams behind it. Same in DTM, e.g. "Audi Bank / Shell Helix Audi A4 DTM" or "Playboy Audi A4 DTM"

Yes and infact i've already increased the font size since that picture was taken, its a sad fact but at TV resolution the numbers are quite hard to read which is why i've gone for strong constracting colours and i've made each drivers number a different colour to help identify which car it is.

Hmm maybe like in Nascar atleast on the roof the number in big? DTM used it years ago, too and it was quiet good visible, together with the Driver Name in big capital letters. Even with these big numbers I would suggest that parts of the car have to be coloured to see, who it is. F1 coloured this "T" above the dirver in red (first driver) and yellow (second driver). This can be addapted by doing the same with the mirrors and the wing. again, my suggested manager system would work :) (first driver red, second driver yellow, third subsitutive driver blue/green)
Second thing I'd suggest to this point. You should use a rectangular numberplate. For a spectator it is more easy to identify the number, as the contrast is on a bigger area. Although the font size might be the same, in motion an ellipse as numberplate seems to be smaller, and you cannot read it that well. (my experience)

AstroBoy

15th May 2008, 06:55

Ill be happy once the new season starts and can watch the broadcast again will be legendary.

Im interested in seeing these car designs and what the drivers can do.

Just wondering will Quli or something be broadcasted as well? Coz i would be interested to see what the test drivers can do as well as the actual drivers.

Becky Rose

15th May 2008, 09:44

I'll publish testing times, i'm not going to broadcast them.

AstroBoy

15th May 2008, 09:53

Damn no STCC dream team :( lol

Motordirex

23rd May 2008, 03:54

No advertisements, even LFS brands (I dont want LFS brands on all cars there just isnt enough variety).

So if I own "online business A" and raced in the STCC I wouldnt be allowed to have my own team livery for "online business A"?

Or if Im "online business A" and wanted to sponsor a driver in the STCC how would that work?

Jakg

23rd May 2008, 07:05

By "LFS Brands" she means Shinzooka etc - Stuff like ATL might be ok as they are a real company.

Dru

23rd May 2008, 07:24

sounds like a way that Becky can control the renanue or #se'' sponsership' space herself on cars - which is ok (and fine for her to do) if people official sign a contract to drive and the renanue os split equally amoungst the competitors regardless of whether or not that specific 'team' has sponsership... :shrug:

Of course Becky's cut for running the thing would be more than the percentage a driver would get :nod: but heck - its a business :D

Becky Rose

23rd May 2008, 08:04

Yes i'm controlling liveries, but whilst I have had some interest from potential sponsors i'm not chasing sponsors hard at this time. Mostly it's to control the constant swapping of driver skins and team changes that plagued last season and was a serious detraction from the spectacle when viewers couldnt recognise their favorites.

As for what the business model is and what is "ok" for me to do, i'll be the judge of that - but I think the existing drivers will tell you i'm not out to screw anyone over.

If you wanted your own company advertised on your own car that is possible, but you have to pay for it either by buying a sponsorship licence for the car (giving you back control but subjecting you to skin homologation) or by sponsoring the team via the STCC.

mcintyrej

23rd May 2008, 09:33

I've just read through the whole topic and I'm proud to report that I've been sporting a beaming smile throughout.

One thing i'm going to put out there is that I hope you open some qualifying events, i've been wanting to be in STCC from the day I first saw it (around round 2 I think) and havn't had an opportunity.

Keep up the good work Becky, this season will be great!

Dru

23rd May 2008, 12:21

As for what the business model is and what is "ok" for me to do, i'll be the judge of that - but I think the existing drivers will tell you i'm not out to screw anyone over.

No one is saying or suggesting otherwise Becky :shrug:

:D

Motordirex

24th May 2008, 04:47

Yes i'm controlling liveries, but whilst I have had some interest from potential sponsors i'm not chasing sponsors hard at this time. Mostly it's to control the constant swapping of driver skins and team changes that plagued last season and was a serious detraction from the spectacle when viewers couldnt recognise their favorites.

Define "controlling"? By that I feel like if "My Company" was to get involved youd decide what the livery looks like: banner size, colours, etc.

I do understand why in the case of LFS brands, but if Logitech sponsored a team of two cars im pretty sure they would stick with the same livery throughout the season. Brand recognition cant happen if your swapping liveries every 3 rounds; this aint MotoGP. :D

Does a sponsor get to pick their drivers? Cuz if I gave you money to advertise then got stuck with Dru as my driver Id be less then pleased. haha :razz:

Dru

24th May 2008, 09:21

Define "controlling"? By that I feel like if "My Company" was to get involved youd decide what the livery looks like: banner size, colours, etc.

I do understand why in the case of LFS brands, but if Logitech sponsored a team of two cars im pretty sure they would stick with the same livery throughout the season. Brand recognition cant happen if your swapping liveries every 3 rounds; this aint MotoGP. :D

Does a sponsor get to pick their drivers? Cuz if I gave you money to advertise then got stuck with Dru as my driver Id be less then pleased. haha :razz:

LOL charming Thain :really: :D

But yes this is ultimately loads of questions which I'm sure Becky has foreseen and will answer in time/ announce when the time is right.

First thing is publisising and generating interest
Second is announcing what she wants happening
Third is re-negotiation untill all parties are happy :razz:

Becky Rose

24th May 2008, 09:33

baSh0r

24th May 2008, 23:39

ok Becky nice idea and stuff but i'd say you better optimize your template :) And turn on AntiAliasing :D

If you need help or something i think here are much experienced ppl

Motordirex

25th May 2008, 05:50

all your questions have such obvious answers it is actually a little difficult to post without breaking out the mission statement and bashing you over the post button with it Motodirex :)

ask yourself what you would want as a sponsor and its likely that your chequebook says the STCC agrees with you. As far as skins and driver selection goes.

One thing we are taught in marketing is communication and explaining your points so everyone can understand. So feel free to pull the mission statement but answer my questions like your explaining it to a 7 year old. Choose your words wisely.

As far as bashing goes, remember Im am a supporter of the STCC and have been since I laid my eyes on the series and that Im a potential backer. Again, choose your words wisely. :razz:

Dru - Jokes, of course. :D

baSh0r

25th May 2008, 14:41

I was so free and designed you a numberplate.

It's just my idea, noone says you must like or use it :)

Becky Rose

6th August 2008, 11:46

It's not dead :)

The STCC is a show from start to finish and two areas of the show that are aweful at the moment is before the race starts, and after it ends. To this end i've been experimenting, subscribers to my you tube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/BeckyRoseI) may already have seen where i'm going with this (although the published video is just a concept draft).

I've an absolute ton of work to do in terms of development, I want to develop a nice league portal and integrate that into server management software that controls and automates everything, aswell as getting the tools in place to get the depth of community and infrastructure necessary to capture cold visitors and turn them into viewers.

I'm very much taking the view that the whole thing needs to work on a multi-media level. It's no good just making a broadcast, I want the web site to work in such a way that a fan can happily spend over an hour viewing it without getting bored. I want podcasts delivering the latest news, and teams to reach out to their audiences.

What i'm looking to produce is a few months of frenzied spectacle with as much media and supporting information available as a spectator wants to tap into.

I'm not interested in carrying the STCC on for the sake of it, I dont care that it is a league that now has some prestige attached. I'm only interested in driving it forward and trying out new creative technologies, if i'm not pushing a new frontier, then i'm not interested - and that's the way I am, of course i'm making this post because i'm trying to push the frontiers rather than walk away.

So whilst it seems i'm very silent and the STCC is dead, actually i'm either planning or developing some shiney new feature and tackling the task of developing substantial supporting tools and media.

One of the reasons you are not hearing much is because i'm working alone, it's well publicised that i'm not with UKCT/CTRA anymore and the series has no backing from them. For some aspects i've been waiting to see what X-League is like in its final draft so I can take any good ideas from it, but otherwise the CTRA no longer has any influence over the STCC and that also means i'm working alone. I continue to fund the project myself also, and that currently means the web page is down! It will be back soon enough though, when i've got something I want to show anyway.

So stay tuned, check in from time to time, STCC will relaunch and if I make only 1 guarantee it's that when STCC comes back it's going to either be a big disaster or a big success, but either way it'll be big.

audimasta

7th August 2008, 00:25

Thx for the update Becky. Really looking forward to season two :)

The Moose

7th August 2008, 14:35

Sounds really interesting Becky, keep up the good work!
Just don't burn yourself out again this time :)

Becky Rose

7th August 2008, 15:32

Yeah i'm taking it much more relaxed now, without the obligations to CTRA and with the experience learned from season 1 and all the preperation i'm doing before I even think about holding qualifyers I hope i've got that in check!

I have a new "S-System" *cheeky grin* core developed for the control application, it's much more efficient in all respects than any LFS app i've knocked out previously and all nicely OO and stuff. It's just a core at the moment mind you and doesn't do all that much apart from some basic checking (passengers, driver model etc) and some debug commands.

I also recently knocked up a funky new video browsing thingy for the new web site, kinda iPhone inspired (I am a coverflow addict).

So real things are happening, but all at my own pace :).

The next major tasks i've got to tackle are the in-server interface backbone, web site accounts and tying them to LFS accounts and STCC teams, and the communication between web and application software. I've no idea when i'll do them, when I feel like it is the best ETA I can give :)

StableX

7th August 2008, 15:39

sounds wicked Becky!

Becky Rose

8th August 2008, 09:37

I've started replacing the LFS HUD with an in-game configurable pitboard, the idea being that drivers race in shift-f mode. This allows me to replace the flag system in LFS with improved yellow flag handling (covering whole sectors) aswell as making the onscreen information available to the driver more customiseable.

I havn't decided yet whether the pit board will only appear as you cross the start finish line and be a lap out of date, I rather suspect there might be some resistance to using it if I did that unless I could force disable the standard HUD.

As a head up i've decided to ban auto clutch. Those without a clutch peddle can use a button, i've testing this it works fine and increases the chance of stalling in a spin and the chance of miss-shifts which create overtaking opportunities.

On my list of requests i'm going to put into Scawen is the ability to disable ignition when out of the pits, in effect, making the cars not have their own starter motor. This is something I would expect to see on single seaters but i'd like to do it in the STCC too. Consider it "weight saving", so that drivers who spin and stall bring out a safety car.

Bean0

8th August 2008, 09:48

Is encouraging the use of the button clutch macro exploit a good idea ?

Becky Rose

8th August 2008, 09:52

That's an LFS issue that's out of my control, i'm sure Scawen will fix it in a coming patch - probably by adding a delay when certain things appear in a script together.

Bean0

8th August 2008, 09:56

It's not done with the LFS scripting system though.

Becky Rose

8th August 2008, 10:40

Well I should think I can find a way to fix it, though I dont know why it would fall to me to do, but I need to understand the process, as I understand it:

Cut Throttle;
Hold Gear Change Button;
Momentary Clutch;
Release Gear Change Button;
Re-Apply Throttle

or

Cut Throttle;
Hold Clutch Button;
Momentary Gear Change Button;
Release Clutch Button;
Re-Apply Throttle

Done using a joystick profiler and/or keyboard input script of some kind?

I could write an outguage passer that profiles gear changes and analyses them so that suspect drivers could be checked and have their gear change patterns profiled, graphed, and published in the stewards area.

Dru

8th August 2008, 10:53

interesting thread ideas - do you plan to give out G25's to everyone so people can race fairly all with a clutch pedal.

Can not see the fairness in banning the auto clutch and making people have to go and spend £150 on a 3 pedal set up.

Jakg

8th August 2008, 10:53

OR you could just decide to let auto-clutch ride because sometimes when you try to induce action you make things lame...

Becky Rose

8th August 2008, 11:00

Button clutch works fine on my two peddle setup Dru, I dont see the problem on that. All last seasons STCC drivers where ruddy good and I hope to that season 2 attracts an equally talented field of drivers, I think it is not beyond the realms of reason to expect a half decent sim racer to be able to handle a clutch.

Jakg, i'm not sure what ideas that made it into STCC feature races last season where lame by your consideration? Certainly some ideas where floated that didn't make it but I was happy with the way the regulations unfolded and the effects of the way the series was structured had on the broadcast.

Dru

8th August 2008, 11:36

Button clutch works fine on my two peddle setup Dru, I dont see the problem on that.

How does it work down shifting and with corners?

All last seasons STCC drivers where ruddy good and I hope to that season 2 attracts an equally talented field of drivers, I think it is not beyond the realms of reason to expect a half decent sim racer to be able to handle a clutch.

I heard some drivers used aids last year like 'brake help' :really: and such like....

If you are going down the lines of 'realism' are you going to get rid of all those 'cheater' custom views and such like as well?

Becky Rose

8th August 2008, 11:56

How does it work down shifting and with corners?
Exactly the same as it does for the FBM :shrug:

I heard some drivers used aids last year like 'brake help' :really: and such like....
All driver aids where banned from Blackwood onwards, we even forced throttle cut on upshift to be on, but now the driving aids and gearbox model has changed greatly in LFS anyway.

If you are going down the lines of 'realism' are you going to get rid of all those 'cheater' custom views and such like as well?
I for one dont find cockpit view terribly realistic, I like a custom view that moves the view forward and I know i'm not alone in this either, it's a realism preference rather than a cheat. However it's possible that one thing I have in mind may have the drivers choosing to be able to see their virtual dashboard out of choice ... if I take the route of asking Scawen to allow me to force the HUD off drivers wont have a virtual rev counter any more, whether I do that, and whether Scawen obliges, are two "IF" statements at the moment.

Jakg

8th August 2008, 11:57

Dru - lets not let it spill here :p

During season 2 flat-shifting was banned, as was brake help (and throttle help when LFS still had it) as was "throttle blip on downshift" (which is now removed from LFS) with the main purpose being "adding action"...

Dru

8th August 2008, 12:02

Exactly the same as it does for the FBM :shrug:

All driver aids where banned from Blackwood onwards, we even forced throttle cut on upshift to be on, but now the driving aids and gearbox model has changed greatly in LFS anyway.

I for one dont find cockpit view terribly realistic, I like a custom view that moves the view forward and I know i'm not alone in this either, it's a realism preference rather than a cheat. However it's possible that one thing I have in mind may have the drivers choosing to be able to see their virtual dashboard out of choice ... if I take the route of asking Scawen to allow me to force the HUD off drivers wont have a virtual rev counter any more, whether I do that, and whether Scawen obliges, are two "IF" statements at the moment.

I just don't understand this 'we will introduce realism... but only bits we like part' :shrug:

IMHO it should be either all or nothing.....

..... custom views can mean the difference between hitting your apexes and kerbs all the time rather than hit the wall or kerbs etc etc.

whats fairer - letting someone spin and having a chance to catch the engine or allowing the driver to not spin out by having a NFS or GT type of view.. ? ?

Bean0

8th August 2008, 12:09

I just don't understand this 'we will introduce realism... but only bits we like part' :shrug:

IMHO it should be either all or nothing.....

..... custom views can mean the difference between hitting your apexes and kerbs all the time rather than hit the wall or kerbs etc etc.

whats fairer - letting someone spin and having a chance to catch the engine or allowing the driver to not spin out by having a NFS or GT type of view.. ? ?

I think you are missing the point.

Becky has stated time and time again, that any changes are to improve the experience for the viewer, not to make the driving experience more realistic. The viewer does not care what view a driver uses.

Hyperactive

8th August 2008, 12:12

... and gearbox model has changed greatly in LFS anyway.
Has it really? Flatshifting is still quite possible and sometimes you can easily get away with it. I don't know if one can shift without clutch more realistically or is the rpm range still very small where it is possible... Personally I've not seen the need to change my driving any much in LFS for the last 2 years...

I for one dont find cockpit view terribly realistic,

...

However it's possible that one thing I have in mind may have the drivers choosing to be able to see their virtual dashboard out of choice .

I see a contradiction :razz:. Anyways, the cockpit view and its adjustments depend greatly on how you have set up your wheel, display(s) and pedals. If you sit inside of real scale replica of XRR with al the gizmos and stuff you will probably want to set up your cockpit view to not to show the dash. Or if you use old MM non-FF racing wheel and normal lcd display you may want to see the dash of the cockpit along with some of the instruments.

---
As for the clutch button, I find it a bit strange. The lack of auto-clutch will most probably just encourage people to set up macros and whatnot to circumvent the need to use the button clutch. People who use wheels with lots of steering angle are defenately going to suffer from this, especially dfp users. People who use wheels with less rotation will suffer much less. It's a bit counter effective when you compare the target and the result imho :). The main thing that worries me though is that technically it is impossible to oversee if people are really operating the clutch themselves instead of using a program to do it for themselves.

Dru

8th August 2008, 12:15

I think you are missing the point.

Becky has stated time and time again, that any changes are to improve the experience for the viewer, not to make the driving experience more realistic. The viewer does not care what view a driver uses.

so what does the viewer want to watch then :really:

then the viewer should also not give a dam how someone changes gear and such like.....

Becky Rose

8th August 2008, 12:37

The main thing that worries me though is that technically it is impossible to oversee if people are really operating the clutch themselves instead of using a program to do it for themselves.
I believe I can reliably detect a macro, with Beano's help in PM I think i've identified a systemic watermark that I can use to accurately detect the use of a macro over race distance, but i've got to develop the software and prove the theory yet ... further down the road. Yes if it works i'll make the tool available to other league organisers, but it's not near the top of my to do list at the moment.

Has it really? Flatshifting is still quite possible and sometimes you can easily get away with it. I don't know if one can shift without clutch more realistically or is the rpm range still very small where it is possible... Personally I've not seen the need to change my driving any much in LFS for the last 2 years...
For two peddle sequential shift users the loss of auto clutch will result in a change of driving style that will help negate some of their advantage over stick users. Out of choice i'd like to see the balance of performance lying with those who use stick. Currently in LFS a stick user will typically change gear slower. Last year by effect use of which driver aids we allowed under which circumstances we where able to encourage the use of H shifters so drivers who had them didnt opt for sequential purely to gain that last tenth.

I would like to reach a stage where people who have the option elect for an H shift. This is the way it should be.

Becky has stated time and time again, that any changes are to improve the experience for the viewer, not to make the driving experience more realistic. The viewer does not care what view a driver uses.
To a point yes, what the a-typical viewer wants is to see a highly entertaining race, packaged in a good show, to see the best competitors in the sport, racing a realistic simulator... roughly in that order. Realism isnt disregarded in the STCC and yes i'd be happier knowing none of the drivers where using 'arcade' style chase cam views.

Before you flame me for it, wait for my opinion on it! As i've said, I have something in mind which may encourage drivers to want to see their dash but at the moment it's not confirmed whether it will happen (needs change from Scawen), it would be encouraging the driver to use either using a cockpit view or a custom view that doesnt vary much from centre.

To my knowledge most drivers in the STCC where using cockpit view, or central cockpit custom views, or custom bonnet cams. I dont consider any of these to be 'arcade' and all are within the grounds of what I consider to be 'realistic', they're just a different preference is all.

Monitors have a limited field of vision compared to reality, so some leeway is perfectly acceptable, in my opinion.

As for the clutch thing, well ideally i'd like everyone to have a 3 pedal clutch and H shifters - but it's not viable to expect that. Allowing a button clutch and detecting for macro's strikes me as a reasonable alternative.

In any case if a driver has an H shifter I wish to encourage them to use it rather than opt for the 'cheaty' extra tenth from a sequential.

Becky Rose

10th August 2008, 08:55

I did a little more this weekend, YAY, this time on the web site. I have been writing forum mods to integrate CTRA and STCC licence information into the user account system and i've got a nice management area where I can approve/deny/revoke licences etc and select the DRB drivers. I think it's all working but I got drunk yesterday so when I look at it next i'm going to have to check everything :shy:.

Basically the forum user system drives the acess to other areas of the site so only 1 signup is required, it's all working rather dapper at the moment, except for logging out which I seem to have ballsed up.

It's looking nice too, much nicer than the forums the STCC used last season. I'm going to look into the issue of spam bot account registration that was a constant fight last season. I'm using an activation email system already and think i'll install a captcha if I can, they annoy me like hell - but it's a one time thing and if it gets rid of those annoying posts for casino's and what have you then it's worth doing.

Becky Rose

10th August 2008, 13:19

*looks up bleery eyed from her console*
Well i've a funky CMS working for the front page now, driven by a forum section (thanks for the inspiration Muroc), I had do add some new BB codes to the forum software so they could be formatted well but it's all working like a charm now.

Though i've spent most of the morning trying to fix an obscure MySQL issue caused in my drunken haze yesterday ! :shy:

Becky Rose

11th August 2008, 07:42

I've had a rethink on the autoclutch issue, that is to say, use of manual clutch will be encouraged via a new mechanism but those who want to use autoclutch can do so. The method i'm using for this i'm not going to publish yet as it relies on something I dont want to announce yet.

I've been working on the team section and compiling the entries section, each team has their own blog to post news and it integrates very nicely with everything so hopefully it will get used. I've got to come back to the entries section to add some driver stats when that part of the system is done, next up is the team principles team management page where some magic is going to happen.

mcintyrej

11th August 2008, 10:05

Becky Rose

11th August 2008, 10:31

Sounds great Becky - I'm glad you've had a burst of motivation to get on with things and are addressing the issues with the clutch system.
Well if I had my way i'd give all the drivers G25's, but Logitech and I aren't exchanging communication since the series went off air for a while, I tried to re-establish links to no avail.

My recurring question though - are you running a qualification event for the league before it starts up again? :shy:
Same answer. Yes, nearer the time.

I'll be allowing 18 teams of 2 drivers to enter (and a 3rd, optional, reserve & test driver), making a total of 36 race entrants and 54 total. About 10 of last seasons drivers are still active so that's over 20 places to fill with raw recruits ... which is a bit scarey for me as it could be like the leagues first races all over again.

mcintyrej

11th August 2008, 10:59

which is a bit scarey for me as it could be like the leagues first races all over again.

What about the possibility of running "Training" races, more like practice ones. Once all the spots have been filled to your satisfaction, you could host a series of races not linked to the championship that show how capable drivers are and you can make changes according to that.

Becky Rose

11th August 2008, 11:08

Well in a sense thats what the qualifying events will be, and the CTRA licence requirement is some guarantee of a reasonable standard.

What is more concern to me is the whole broadcast aspect, drivers coming into the STCC need to learn that the show is all important - that means no shift-p, and complying with sometimes strange concepts that arent standard in sim racing and doing different things. You'll see if you qualify ;p

There's a lot to take in for new drivers, a heck of a lot. The STCC is very different internally to other leagues already and with the new stuff coming on board it's set to change even more.

mcintyrej

11th August 2008, 13:14

Becky Rose

11th August 2008, 14:04

I can't wait. :D Last question - When!11!one!?
The question is also the answer: When.

Becky Rose

13th August 2008, 12:44

Dru

13th August 2008, 15:54

One of the things I am going to be looking at, with the new pitstop regulations and all, is having fixed pit boxes on a per team basis. With a narrow pit window (2 laps) teams will need to co-ordinate via a team manager, or have a pre-agreed order for pitting.

so a 2 car team will only have 2 laps to pit both of their cars in the same box...

interesting.. sounds like hamilton and alonso hungary 2007 :thumb:

Becky Rose

13th August 2008, 16:10

Yup.

It strikes me as the best solution to another potential problem of a 2 lap pit window. See I want a narrow pit window to make sure the passing is done on the track not the pits, with a 2 lap window the pit lane becomes a spectacle in itself.

I've been watching replays of league races with pitstops though, and it concerns me that when multiple cars come in together there can lead to confusion, i'm looking to pack 10-15 cars a lap into the pits - that's hectic.

The last thing I want to see is cars reversing, blocking each other, and nudging each other in the pits - I want it to be a spectacle, not a shambles. So regulations will be necessary and it strikes me that having a dedicated pit box will assist in keeping the pit lane under control.

I'm going to look at the insim data I get back from LFS during pitstops soon and plan a solution. Each teams pit box will be in a fixed order during the season to reduce confusion and ideally at 2 box spacing apart, but I need to check that's possible on all tracks that are planned.

I am considering giving the teams 2 boxes incase the timing is too tight, but i'd like to keep it at one to increase the space between teams if I can.

TFalke55

13th August 2008, 16:30

The problem of a 2lap window would be 15 cars, in pitlane in one lap. I think it would seem more like NASCAR Caution action, then madentory pitstop action. 2nd thing, the 2lap window becomes a very unfair rule, if the safety car must be deployed during the window. This is something you can barely control.

Maybe something like in the DTM would be better, where the drivers have to pit in the 2nd third of the race, while in the first and last third pitstops do not count.

Becky Rose

13th August 2008, 16:38

The safety car rules have changed since last season and are now such that it wont matter. Laps under safety car are no longer counted. Drivers will be advised to carry 10 laps extra fuel (for start procedure and SC periods combined). If race control feels that 10 laps extra fuel isnt sufficient for the SC periods in that race (unlikely) then the race will end prematurely - as likely by then the broadcast will be over-running anyway.

Becky Rose

13th August 2008, 18:59

Well i've had a check and Aston is 18 pit boxes and everywhere else 16, so I cant do 2 box spacing. I am going to reduce the entries to 15 teams (30 cars) though - on the plus side that does mean on a full turn out there is no non-qualifyers.

Dru

13th August 2008, 22:22

Bean0

13th August 2008, 22:30

No room for safety car ?

PMD9409

13th August 2008, 22:44

Does a safety car need a pit box?

Becky Rose

13th August 2008, 23:28

might be daft - but why not a full 32 racers and 16 teams?
Safety car, and also 5 teams of each car type, giving me 5x3x2=30 cars, just room for safety car on a full grid, though I know attendance tends to run at nearer 60-70%... So i've still got to mull this over. I might switch to a 3 car team approach.

mcintyrej

14th August 2008, 00:16

Safety car, and also 5 teams of each car type, giving me 5x3x2=30 cars, just room for safety car on a full grid, though I know attendance tends to run at nearer 60-70%... So i've still got to mull this over. I might switch to a 3 car team approach.

3 Car team would be better and worse. For people who are trying to qualify for the league on their own and aren't in a racing team its easier to join a partner for a team of 2, rather than be in a team of 3. However, 3 car teams would be better for broadcasting I think and would make it a bit easier for the viewers of less racing nature to watch. People who don't know racing in and out and who don't know the drivers specifically will find it a lot easier to follow one team that they like. Its just also better to look at a grid with only 10 different looking cars rather than 15.

Becky Rose

14th August 2008, 08:56

Cars in the same colours are hard to tell apart on the broadcast though, i'd like to keep it to 2, but unless I extend the pit window and make the STCC like any other 'race with strategy (and less action)' or get rid of the pitstop and tyre change ideas, then i'm not going to get more than 20 odd cars turning up.

Another method might be for teams to share pit garages with each other and have multiple fixed windows, so all the FXO's would pit then all the RB4's then all the XRT's or something like that. Maybe with the order of car class being selected randomly, or by some other method (order of first car of class in current race order etc).

This would then allow me to run the original concept of 18 teams, giving me another 6 cars to get the number of likely attendees in the region I want (~25).

TFalke55

14th August 2008, 13:19

Safety car, and also 5 teams of each car type, giving me 5x3x2=30 cars, just room for safety car on a full grid, though I know attendance tends to run at nearer 60-70%... So i've still got to mull this over. I might switch to a 3 car team approach.

just to your notice... if you race South City, you need to low down the grid size, as the max grid by LFS is 30 cars.

Cars in the same colours are hard to tell apart on the broadcast though, i'd like to keep it to 2, but unless I extend the pit window and make the STCC like any other 'race with strategy (and less action)' or get rid of the pitstop and tyre change ideas, then i'm not going to get more than 20 odd cars turning up.

Another method might be for teams to share pit garages with each other and have multiple fixed windows, so all the FXO's would pit then all the RB4's then all the XRT's or something like that. Maybe with the order of car class being selected randomly, or by some other method (order of first car of class in current race order etc).

This would then allow me to run the original concept of 18 teams, giving me another 6 cars to get the number of likely attendees in the region I want (~25).

I like the idea of an restricted pit window... maybe extend it to 5 laps / mins just to avoid to much bumping in pits... But it should stay as total pit window. As the races have a certain duration and and unexpected things can happen. So a divided to car class pitwindow can just turn out in a chaos.

Is there any kind of ballast system planned?

Becky Rose

14th August 2008, 13:30

just to your notice... if you race South City, you need to low down the grid size, as the max grid by LFS is 30 cars.
Thanks for the heads up, on this one I was there the day Scawen descovered it with a 32 car grid at SO Long... floating at world co-ords 0,0,0 as he was and saying "er, um, er. hang on" :D

I'm going to take a step back and make some reconsiderations on the whole pitstop thing. Atm for instance there's a glitch in LFS that when you change tyre compound your car is repaired, and I dont like the idea of bodywork damage getting fixed during the races if it can be avoided. Car damage looks good :).

SamH

14th August 2008, 13:38

Separate out "Car" damage, though.. body damage looks good, but suspension damage in a replay? Euuww! :x

Becky Rose

14th August 2008, 15:55

Separate out "Car" damage, though.. body damage looks good, but suspension damage in a replay? Euuww! :x
I can only work with what LFS provides, whilst i'm sure there's things I could do if I had the LFS source code, i'm equally sure Scawen isn't going to give it to me ! :D

TFalke55

19th August 2008, 13:39

The VW Shirocco will be part of LFS, and if I understand Scrawen correctly, it will be compareable to the FXO... does that mean, it could also be a choice for STCC??? I do not know how fine it would seem to have a field of fictive cars and then some VWs? I hope this way I did not self-respond my question...

Becky Rose

19th August 2008, 13:42

I'll review it when i've got it. I cant make the decision without having it.

However I want to move away from calling the cars XRT/FXO/RB4. I want the non-LFS viewer not to be intimidated. My way of doing this is to make the STCC much more team orientated next year, and some teams will run front wheel drive, some teams rear wheel drive, some teams all wheel drive... As for the performance of their cars, well the weight and power will be unique to their team vehicle.

So in principle if we can include this car we are getting an extra body shape, which can only be a good thing.

hyntty

20th August 2008, 15:03

However I want to move away from calling the cars XRT/FXO/RB4. I want the non-LFS viewer not to be intimidated. My way of doing this is to make the STCC much more team orientated next year, and some teams will run front wheel drive, some teams rear wheel drive, some teams all wheel drive... As for the performance of their cars, well the weight and power will be unique to their team vehicle.

Won't it be confusing if several teams have the same car? Wouldn't that require (if you don't get a scickshac in time) that some teams have sorta #1 and #2 crews... because there'll be at least four of the same cars in the grid?

Becky Rose

20th August 2008, 18:48

Teams will be in pairs. If an LFS team wants to have an additional team and completes all the necessary qualification stuff then i'll ask the secondary team to use different or inverted colours. I really dont want to see 4 identical looking cars on the broadcast as that's confusing for viewers.

One thing though, i'm trying to include scope to have teams larger than just the two race drivers - it will all be optional, but I want to put the foundations in place for larger teams to get involved and behind their STCC drivers efforts, and for smaller teams to nursemaid new drivers into the series in subsequent seasons so that new drivers get a chance to find out what it's all about before they arrive in their first race.

Becky Rose

21st August 2008, 21:11

I've put as far as i've got onto the series web page (http://www.simtouringcarcup.com) as the domain was empty. It shows the direction i'm heading in even though the functionality is a long way from complete, there's whole sections I still havn't started, and some stuff is not yet styled.

mcintyrej

21st August 2008, 21:20

I like the system, looks quite nice too.

That huge picture on the news post made me laugh for a good 5 minutes. :D Really wasn't expecting you to be appearing on the front page of the website, especially in such page-stretching dimensions. :razz:

Becky Rose

21st August 2008, 21:23

I was testing how large images scaled and resized :shrug: There's a lot of odd content at the moment.

Becky Rose

26th August 2008, 10:32

I was toying with the idea of using a tweaked version of the CTRA GT2 class, they do give very good racing, but after review I dont think it will be easy to balance 5 cars in two states (undeveloped and fully developed potential). However i've not ruled out use of a GT2 variant in the future, but certainly not for season 2.

mcintyrej

27th August 2008, 09:02

Do you mean tweak the GT2 class to compete with the TBO's or make it multi-class racing?

I think it it was balanced it would be nice but the GT2's would need less power to make up with their cornering ability. I don't think it would look right.

Becky Rose

27th August 2008, 09:20

No I was looking at shifting the whole thing to GT2, it would mean losing the rallyX but in return getting cars with wings and 5 body shapes. I'm going to stick with TBO though, I sort of have a plan for a GT2 style thing but i'm going to shelve it for the future if STCC season 2 works out.

csurdongulos

27th August 2008, 10:16

what about disallowing the use of locked differentials? As a method of getting a more even field and having the FXO behave a bit more realistically (all for the sake of the broadcast you know).

would be a bit more work to collect the setups from everybody at the end of the race, but as you are enforcing a cool down lap and people are not supposed to pit, you can DSQ anybody who pits before they send you the setup.

Becky Rose

27th August 2008, 10:31

jbirdaspec

28th August 2008, 17:08

For the moment I am looking more to reduce workload during the season, manually checking setups from the numerous heats and sessions would either be a lot of work or not done properly. If it could be automated then yes, but LFS uses closed setup data, even in the replay setup data is stored with it's effect on the physics not on the method used to arive at the effect, so it's impossible to automate at the moment.

Excuse me if I don't have any place posting here... I had a bit of an idea for verifying setups for each driver. It is unconventional for sure, but it could work. What I would propose is a basic program, written in .net more then likely. Each driver would be required to run this program during events and each program would have a encrypted signature unique to him or her. This program would also require that each driver install a separate install of LFS for STCC events in a specific file path. At the time of the event or when the program is operating in the background the program would FTP the .set file in the setups folder to a FTP server identifying the .set with the drivers information in the file name. A rule of only one setup at a time in the setups folder would help and this could be written into the app to not allow more then one at a time to be in the setups folder. You might even be able to control this program though insim?? Then the setup could be verified by the stewards for qualification or a automated file parser on the server where the ftp is running. Still not an easy way compared to using insim to gather the data and then processing it with an external application, but easier then having to nag each driver to send them before the race starts. It would expose the setups that teams and their members are using however. This would be unavoidable at this point from what I understand , unless the file was parsed into strings on the drivers computer and inserted into a database where the stewards could see real time driver verification on a web page or even with insim data. This method would avoid the need for FTP altogether. I think .sets can be read correct? I'm pretty sure I've seen it done with VHPA.

Thanks for Listening. I can't wait to see how this season turns out. A youtube video of one of your races inspired me to buy LFS. Thanks for that....and my wife thanks you guys even more!! :p

Jay Odom
Texas