LFS'ers opinion of rFactor

[nuggetz]

I'm not trying to start a pissing match between the 2 sims. I have em both and enjoy em both. Just want to know what everyone here thinks about rFactor. More specifically, the physics and graphics engine. I used to play LFS all the time. For some reason I jump around between sims. Right now I'm playing GTR and GPL. Lately I've been having the itch to go back and seriously invest some time with LFS.

Anyway, I see a lot of technical and intelligent discussions taking place here compared to the rF forum over at RSC. It's easy to draw conclusions based on the types of discussions taking place and the type of people each forum attracts. I would say that LFS is more hardcore. Compare the GPL forums for example. It has more in common to LFS than rF IMO.

So, please share your opinions on ISI's latest sim.

Thanks

[tristancliffe]

I think certain aspects of rFactor, or could so easily, be either just great, or the best we've ever seen.
But certain aspects (mainly to do with the car handling and feel) leave me cold.

It's why I paid for it, have the installer somewhere on my hard drive, but haven't got it installed. Having said that, the PPC mod, I've been told, is quite good, so I might just install rFactor at some point next week to give it a try. But unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to polish excretea, and I prepared to be either pleasantly surprised, or averagely disappointed.

The best thing I've found with rFactor, as I repeat in almost every rFactor related thread, is the brake squeal - it has to be the best sound in any car sim ever.

So yeah, open minded (mostly), but LFS has always won every comparison with rFactor overall.

[axus]

You have them both, yet it says Demo racer under your name? Are you aware that you can use your LFS account name and WEBpassword when you are on the forums?

I havent driven rF, but as I understand it, rF has very poorly mixed and therefore uninformative sounds. They seem to have gone crazy on the sharpen filter on their textures, so the graphics don't really appeal to me - DX9 shaders would go down nicely in LFS though. The force feedback isn't nearly as good as LFS from what I have read, especially for oversteer and that is just enough to ruin the sim for me - poor sound and force feedback.

I can see this thread going downhill though...

[danowat]

rFactor?, didnt like it, too little content, too much reliance on third party mods (which could be a good idea in the future when my next point is solved), not enough quality third party mods, poorly done default tracks, odd handling.
In closing, doesnt hold a candle to LFS, GTL on the other hand...........

Dan,

[inCogNito]

I'm not trying to start a pissing match between the 2 sims.

but you do ;)

i think rF is crap (at the moment) and i don't think any mod will change that.
the biggest problem is the lack of top notch tracks (like GTR or GTL).
Instead there are hundreds of old GPL-to-F1C-to-GTR conversions.

And besides, modding doesn't help a game with such a small community, but that's another story.

[Gunn]

**Moved to off topic forum. Discussion of other sims *cough* does not belong in the LFS discussion area ever, in my opinion. If you want to discuss other titles please keep it in the off topic section (or preferably don't discuss it at all :P ). "General LFS Discussion" is for the general discussion of LFS, not other software or unrelated subjects.

[MAGGOT]

I too first hated rFactor... I wasn't really impressed by the MP Test demo, but I did buy the game anyways. I played it the weekend before I went to school, and wasn't really impressed. The cars were ugly (except the Howston, I like that one) the tracks were all boring to drive, and the textures were too low res to get a good feel for the game.

Since then, we've updated video cards, allowing me to max out the settings with the high-res track texture packs available on RSC. That encouraged me, as the game was much more visually pleasing. I started driving pretty much the whole weekend I was home from college, and I really enjoyed myself. The only mod I've kept on my hard drive is the PCC mod, which I absolutely love. In time, rF will become the modders dream. Right now though, there isn't that much content to go by, and the tools don't have much in the way of explanations. Eventually once the tutorials become available, you will see some of the greatest work to ever come out of a sim community (or whats left of it.. but thats another discussion.).

I think the argument of little add-on content is a poor one. Add-ons take a long time to make, and the game has only been available for a little over 4 months. The argument is not valid imho.

On the other hand - I love LFS aswell. Although I wish there was more car/track selection, it's getting up there, and will continue with S3 I'd imagine. I love both games, but I find myself turning to rFactor more and more. Something about LFS physics just feel rigid and un-informative to me now.. It still has a steady home on my hard drive though, which is MUCH more than I can say for any "sim" to come out of Simbin's camp.

MAGGOT

[Hyperactive]

I have only tried the Rf demo but it certainly has the best ISI physics I've tested. Not close to LFS but believable to a point. But it still feels floating and spinning (sliding) feels like canned effect, unlike in LFS. I had couple of hours fun but it just doesn't feel right the way LFS does.

If it will have some kind of 400hp car mod with wings and aero I might give a try but I don't even have creditcard to buy it It would be nice to have Blackwood in the demo to see what kinf of times I could do with it :D

[ajp71]

Had problems running the GTL demo and rFactor demo, no demo of the finished physics = I don't buy, simple as that really.

[Boris Lozac]

Had problems running the GTL demo and rFactor demo, no demo of the finished physics = I don't buy, simple as that really.

rFactor users says that MP demo physics are the same as in FULL.. so..
They just polished the rest in the FULL, like graphics, net code, etc..

[colcob]

Well, I bought it on impulse when it came out, but was severely disappointed by first impressions and hadnt played it at all until recently.

Anyway, I havent played LFS much for ages, and I thought I'd give it another chance to impress me, and actually now i'm not so 'tuned in' to LFS physics, it didnt seem so horrible, and once you get a slightly better car without horrible tyres and handling, its actually pretty fun, and a more convincing simulation that first impressions suggested. Its certainly a little bit more forgiving than LFS in RWD cars on road tyres. In fact, a Howden (250ish BHP RWD sports car) is a lot more fun to drive on road tyres than any of the LFS RWD road cars with the current tyre physics.

It still occasionally does wierd stuff you dont expect, but then so does LFS I guess.

[ajp71]

I'm yet to crash on rFactor and be flung into the sky doing a series of spins! That's one thing it has over LFS, more realistic impacts.

Afraid I take the nK philosophy there what matters is what happens on track, after a large enough smash to cause nasty injuries and definatley a retirement it doesn't matter what happens :shrug:, though I agree it's nice not to go flying it won't ever change the on track physics.

[nuggetz]

Thanks guys for the replies. I kinda feel the same as most of you. rF didn't wow me when I first got it. Still doesnt. They do try to hard to make it look realistic and it must be the worst attempt ever made because to me it looks over-saturated with color.

I think the FF isn't as bad as some of you say. I actually feel a lot of the road and surface flaw. I'm going to fire up LFS again tonight (yes I am licensed for S2, but I forgot my login - gotta go thru the activation stuff again tonight) and see if I feel any bumps in the road. I dont recall feeling anything in LFS except maybe over curbs. Someone can correct me on that, I just really never felt it.

The PCC mod is pretty good but I'm comparing it to GTR and it's different. So who knows which is better.

[deggis]

I've only played the old MP test demo and I actually liked it very much. But I wasn't hooked up with LFS back then. After LFS it didn't feel as good as it felt over an year ago. I've watched lots of videos of the full version and it doesn't seem that different. Horrible fantasy cars (of course cars in LFs are fantasy too, but the difference is that LFS cars look like real cars) and the lack of good FF doesn't convince me. And of course the engine is still Ruined by ISI™.

I check the RSCnet rCraptor (it's just so funny "nick name" :D) forums quite often to just see the current stage of some mods. I would like to test that Porsche Cup mod (but can't because I don't have full version, and I'm not going to get it until I'm sure it's a good purchase).

NAGT Mod (NAGT as North American GT Series) looks very promising too. Check out the couple of months old preview movie: http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=232376

I think the mistake ISI made with rFactor is the default content. Because it didn't attract people that much it's hard to get the player base which is needed to get popular mods. As far as I know there aren't very much online players and the mods itself divide players to smaller groups.

ps. That brake squeal is really nice which Tristan mentioned. Altough I don't generally like the sound in rFactor at all (when comparing to other sampled engines like GTR or RBR). That gearbox bleating is really weird sounding and annoying.

[Rotary]

I liked the demo a lot... never bothered with the full version, I don't want to buy a half arsed game that requires mods to make it good.

GTL on the other hand, now there is a top sim :)

[Jakg]

It's why I paid for it, have the installer somewhere on my hard drive, but haven't got it installed. Having said that, the PPC mod, I've been told, is quite good, so I might just install rFactor at some point next week to give it a try. But unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to polish excretea, and I prepared to be either pleasantly surprised, or averagely disappointed.A. where do i get it from to test it.
B. PPC Mod?

[tristancliffe]

Rfactor.net or whatever it's called. I don't think there is a demo, so you just have to go for it.

PPC is Porsche Carerra Cup mod spelt wrong (whoops).

[ajp71]

Tristan is it really true the final physics are the same as the MP test?

[Jakg]

Rfactor.net or whatever it's called. I don't think there is a demo, so you just have to go for it.

PPC is Porsche Carerra Cup mod spelt wrong (whoops).thought you meant pocket pc then! i thought, oooh! rfactor on my pda!

[tristancliffe]

Tristan is it really true the final physics are the same as the MP test?

The amount of time between playing the MP demo and playing rFactor full means that I don't know. They might be. There certainly isn't a huge 'omg this is so much better' difference.

[ajp71]

If it's not a huge difference then I'm not intrested. To be any good it would have to be like the difference between S1 and S2

[joeynuggetz]

I heard ISI is addinga new FFB setting to the plr file with the next patch. Some were asking whether or not this will allow us to feel what's going on with the front wheels.

Anyway, rFactor is missing something. When I first tryed it, I hated it. Then I gave it time and it grew on me. Now that I'm back playing LFS, I find it hard to go back becuase I cant feel crap when I drive rFactor after having played LFS. It's like going from super stiff springs to riding on a sponge. Not sure who's doing things right but LFS feels better to me.

[Flotch]

the handling in rF is :x ... When I read so many people saying it is perfect, I begin to wonder why I do think exactly the opposite :shrug: . I simply do not like it, I have no feeling of what is happening when I am driving...

[_Rob_]

Exactly the same here, Flotch. No feeling of what is happening

[tristancliffe]

I played rFactor quite a bit yesterday (as I handed in lots of coursework, and my teammate Munko keeps hassling me to play it).

I went in as open-minded as I can be.

When driving, the feeling of understeer is quite nice - it feels like the car is really struggling for grip at the front, and corrects in a nice realistic fashion (up to a point). That point is the oversteer. I hated the oversteer. I can't feel what the back of the car is doing, so the only clue I have to oversteer is when I can see it happening, by which time it's too late to catch. I played with my FFB settings and PLR files quite a bit, but couldn't make it work. The only way in which I could get a car I didn't spin at every corner was by using the Auto Setup routine and selecting full understeer on the balance option.

I'm not an awful driver in LFS, so I like to think I have a small understanding of what cars are doing, and rFactor just simple wasn't as good a simulation as LFS. Sure it's better at low speeds, but I only notice that leaving the pits, so I don't really care.

The graphics annoyed me to - I have expected Tom or Jerry to jump out at any time.

Sound was pretty good - okay it's sampled, but the samples are quite simple and timed to the engine fairly well. For using it as a driving tool it's not as good as LFS yet, but it shows that well done samples can be reasonable effective. Much better than GTR or GTL in that respect, and has a lot more body that LFS.

Interface - I think the people who made rF must have gone on a weeks course entitled "How to make a racing game interface as complicated as possible". In LFS you can be on a track in less than a dozen clicks. In rF you'll have only just selected what car you want and that you're gonna consider playing multiplayer in that time.

Lighting - rF's got to be the clear winner here. The day/night sequence, the cockpit of your car being lit up by a following cars headlights, the trackside lights illuminating the track and grass - all very very cool. Definately the benchmark.

I played with the F3 Mod, the PCC Mod, the rTrainer and (offline) the F1 thingy whatever it's called. I used both default and aftermarket tracks.

Whilst rFactor has brilliant scores in some aspects, it's let down by the driving experience. I really tried to get used the cars, but the oversteer and lack of feel of the oversteer via sound/FFB ruined it.

Apparently the new F3 mod, combined with the upcoming 1070 patch should cure this. I will of course play it after then (and a bit in the meantime), and I will try to be objective about it. But for me rFactor isn't even close to beating LFS as a driving sim.


Edit: PCC Mod V1.1 (patch), F3 V2.0 and rFactor Patch 1070 are all released today - find them in the usual places. Gonna test them soon, and see if things have improved.

[keiran]

When trying the rF demo the menus annoyed the hell out of me. It took me a while to get anywhere and the stupid car rendered on the middle of the screen is that really needed :shrug: it just made loading times for switching cars even longer on my low end PC by todays standards.
When I got LFS I was stright in the game and I could alter my steering/graphics/etc all from the game.
I have done a few 3D models so was interested in it for the modding side but when I took a look at the plugins they were just way over the top of my head :Looking_a All they needed to do was release a guide explaining how it all works and even a tutorial but they didn't.
Maybe when CTDP release an F1 mod it might tempt me to buy it since I'm a big F1 fan but other than that at the moment it really doesn't scream out "buy me" yet like LFS did. I just think rFactor was an Anti-Climax it just didn't fufil the claims it made.

[wes.brook]

I also have both. For me LFS "wins", because:

1. The FFB is shocking. It suffers with the same problem for me as GTR in that the wheel always wants to turn full lock once you step outside a few degrees from centre. I've got the dead-band set to 5 degrees, but outiside that, especially with cold tires, the wheel wants to "pull" turn. I'm not sure if this is trying to simulate over-steer, but it sucks. Same as GTR. Getting the car to drive in a straight line after a bend is difficult. It's not difficult in my real car and it's not difficult in LFS, so why does this and GTR insist on this mental FFB arrangement? :pillepall

2. Graphics. As Tristan said above, they do tend to look a bit "cartoony".

3. Cockpit. Car interiors are pretty poor in layout, style and content. Very limited head swivel and you cannot look around the cockpit like in LFS. Does not support TrackIR either AFAIK.

That said;

1. Low speed manouvering is much easier with rF.

2. The "F1" style open wheeled motor is a blast to drive and sounds incredible. I spent most of my time in this beast and certainly enjoyed it.

[tristancliffe]

1. The FFB is shocking. It suffers with the same problem for me as GTR in that the wheel always wants to turn full lock once you step outside a few degrees from centre. I've got the dead-band set to 5 degrees, but outiside that, especially with cold tires, the wheel wants to "pull" turn. I'm not sure if this is trying to simulate over-steer, but it sucks. Same as GTR. Getting the car to drive in a straight line after a bend is difficult. It's not difficult in my real car and it's not difficult in LFS, so why does this and GTR insist on this mental FFB arrangement? :pillepall

You can change the FFB a bit. In options, change from 100% FFB (on high - it';s gotta be high) to -100%.

But if you steer a bit too much (and get forced understeer) then the wheel goes really light and doesn't self center (which is wrong afaik).

[Hyperactive]

I just red throught the rFactor Official Patch 1.070 fixlog and noticed some things that could be good for LFS too. For example how does the unlapping&blue flag work in rF?

# Additional logic to help prevent receiving a blue flag after unlapping yourself from an opponent.

# Added one-lap-to-go warning. Player file option "One Lap To Go Warning" controls whether it is a message, white flag, or both, and whether the warning is given in qualifying.

# Made LCD/HUD standings scrollable with the pit up/down controls and added new standings functionalities: With the pit increment control (or player file option "Standings Func"), you can choose between non-wraparound standings, wraparound standings, or autoscrolling standings.

# Made accidental shift detection time configurable. If you use the PLR file variable "Repeat Shifts", values 1-4 now use increasing amounts of time while value 5 is the shift completion option.

# Added multiplayer fixed setups. Player file value "Fixed Setups" controls whether they are being used. "Fixed Free Settings" controls what, if any, settings are still free (for example, steering lock). "Fixed AI Setups" controls whether the AI uses the fixed setups, too. By default, the fixed setup is the factory defaults, but can be changed by assigning your favorite setups which are stored in FavoriteAndFixedSetups.gal.


I don't fully understand the accidental shift fix but that kind of thing could be good to have in LFS too. I use MS sidewinder wheel and these wheels have sometimes the problem of double shifting with one key press.

[avih]

Accidental shift fix is for old wheel when sometimes the shifter produce double shift instead of one (per one usage). usually cleaning spray on the microswitch fixes it but not everyone open their wheel. So u can configure it that if 2 shifts happen in less than <configurable> duration, consider it as one shift and not 2.

[mike11973]

Thanks guys for the replies. I kinda feel the same as most of you. rF didn't wow me when I first got it. Still doesnt. They do try to hard to make it look realistic and it must be the worst attempt ever made because to me it looks over-saturated with color.

I think the FF isn't as bad as some of you say. I actually feel a lot of the road and surface flaw. I'm going to fire up LFS again tonight (yes I am licensed for S2, but I forgot my login - gotta go thru the activation stuff again tonight) and see if I feel any bumps in the road. I dont recall feeling anything in LFS except maybe over curbs. Someone can correct me on that, I just really never felt it.

The PCC mod is pretty good but I'm comparing it to GTR and it's different. So who knows which is better.

I play lfs more than rF but own them both...here are a couple of screenies to compare the graphics...I do have the high res skys in lfs as well...the pics of rF are with ][udson textures and skys which look mighty fine...as for the rest I still like lfs more but it in it self is also not free of some faults. Its all just a matter of preference.

all settings in LFS are maxed running at 1680*1050
rF settings are dx9 Af 2x AA 4x all other settings maxed also at 1680*1050

http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lfs29pd.jpg

http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newroad7gu.jpg

http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lfs14od.jpg

http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sunset3vw.jpg

[deggis]

Why you didn't turn on FSAA/AF in LFS? If you can run rFactor with those settings I bet you can run LFS at full FSAA/AF settings which looks very nice. :)

[tristancliffe]

rFactor cockpit are a bit nicer at the moment, and the tracks and cars are more detailed (more polygons), but I still think that LFS has the more 'real' look.

Trying to make skins for rFactor at the moment, and it's a slow process. Gotta use dds files (which need more clicks to save), and then use a car viewer which isn't quite as good as the CMX viewer. Oh, except with the F3 cars, which don't work in the car viewer, so I have to alt tab in and out of the game to see the car on the main menu. Grrr.

Played LFS yesterday for the first time in about a fortnight, and my gosh I was impressed with it. It's just.... lovely. I can't see why anyone would actually prefer racing in rFactor, apart from the allure of 2 mods (F3 and PCC), and less crazy crashes every so often.

[FunkedUp]

I did the same as Tristan, drove rFactor exclusively for a couple of weeks. I wanted to get past the initial unfamiliarity and really experience it.

My biggest issue with it was the FFB when using the DFP. Specifically the loss of steering force BEFORE full understeer. But we have got a lot of help from ISI on this and the latest 1070 patch seems to cure it. Check my posts here: http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=239627

Anyways beyond the FFB and some of the online features (skins download, send setup, etc.), I don't think LFS has anything on rFactor. Physics are pretty much a wash, netcode seems great in both, etc. And I think the rFactor graphics and sound are definitely a couple of steps ahead of LFS, which is huge for immersion. So advantage rFactor in my opinion.

Not that there is anything wrong with LFS though. I'll still keep it on the hard drive and I wouldn't be surprised at all if S3 pwn5 rFactor. :)
And there's still no autocross in rFactor, and nothing like the UF, LX-6 or the MRT. YET. :)

[sturje]

Quite frankly i'm royally p'o'ed at rfactor, i paid £25 quid and played it for a while, formatted once, then unlocked fine, second time i formatted, i now cant unlock it again, apparently ive used all my unlocks....So £25 down the drain.

[deggis]

Quite frankly i'm royally p'o'ed at rfactor, i paid £25 quid and played it for a while, formatted once, then unlocked fine, second time i formatted, i now cant unlock it again, apparently ive used all my unlocks....So £25 down the drain.
AFAIK there is no "you get 1 new unlock every month" system which is really dumb so you'll need to contact the ISI devs and you'll get new unlocks.

[mrodgers]

AFAIK there is no "you get 1 new unlock every month" system which is really dumb so you'll need to contact the ISI devs and you'll get new unlocks.
Well, in that case, I'm glad I haven't bought or ever played rFactor. I'm not thrilled with the LFS unlocking either, but at least they pretty much allow you to freely unlock since you get 1 new unlock every month. I think I've already unlocked twice now in January as I did a reinstall of Win98 on 1 drive recently and last night installed XP on a different drive, so I had to unlock again. Hmmm, that gives me a question, but I already have another thread about my OS issue, so never mind here.

[jtr99]

There is a rookie of the year from champ car who actually races in an rFactor league with a friend of mine. I'll find out who it was when I get in, I've forgotten. It makes you wonder how accurate it is when someone in one of the highest forms of motorsport plays it.

Takuma Sato was racing in a UK Nascar Racing league a couple of years ago (before his F1 drive). I don't know what this proves, I just thought I'd mention it. It made me and the other guys in the league feel pretty important to have a real F3000 driver playing (or was it F3, sorry).

He was actually a very competent, clean and polite racer; shame his F1 reputation doesn't seem to capture that.

[deggis]

I wonder how do real life professional racers have time to play sims in leagues? :)

[FunkedUp]

Sato is a class act, hope his F1 career continues.

[deggis]

I personally enjoyed watching Sato in a quick car. Last season not so much, but in the Dave Richards years I think he was happier and more settled. Whether he deserved the drive or not I'm not sure, but there have been way, way worse drivers in F1, and he was fun to watch.
Well, not everyone is good in F1. Like Jyrki "JJ" Lehto who race 89-94. Didn't quite make it in F1 but now he is a 2-time Le Mans winner. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyrki_J%C3%A4rvilehto