View Full Version : Server-side ADS
I think it will be good idea for leagues to able change ads on tracks. :)
An emphatic no from me, sounds far too much like cheap nasty advertising. It may be an idea to have easily switchable ads from in game (like cars skins are atm) though ;)
Gekkibi
2nd May 2008, 17:51
First I thought "ADS" is something else than "advertising".
Now when I know what it means, I give +1. Why? Well, it would add some more colour to the race. CTRA-banners on CTRA-race etc.
banshee56
2nd May 2008, 18:11
As I recall, there was a discussion about this regarding to the latest test patches that make all the signs skinnable.
+1 in theory, but -11111111 in reality. You would have to have the images uploaded to either LFS World, or the local LFS Server, and I doubt very much that the devs want to absorb the added storage and bandwidth required for this. And I am absolutely certain that server providers wouldn't tolerate it. Besides, to go into a server that had server-side ads, plus perhaps up to 30 some skins to download, you're talking about minutes to get into a server versus seconds, and I highly doubt that players would tolerate that either. :shrug:
I wonder, though, if LFS could be written to look for a "pic-{league_name}" folder for custom ads based on the folder name as specified in the server cfg file. Then just have the league host a zip file to download and place in that folder. If the sim doesn't see the folder, it reverts back to standard.
breadfan
3rd May 2008, 11:10
As I recall, there was a discussion about this regarding to the latest test patches that make all the signs skinnable.
+1 in theory, but -11111111 in reality. You would have to have the images uploaded to either LFS World, or the local LFS Server, and I doubt very much that the devs want to absorb the added storage and bandwidth required for this. And I am absolutely certain that server providers wouldn't tolerate it. Besides, to go into a server that had server-side ads, plus perhaps up to 30 some skins to download, you're talking about minutes to get into a server versus seconds, and I highly doubt that players would tolerate that either. :shrug:
I wonder, though, if LFS could be written to look for a "pic-{league_name}" folder for custom ads based on the folder name as specified in the server cfg file. Then just have the league host a zip file to download and place in that folder. If the sim doesn't see the folder, it reverts back to standard.
Please don't make any decisions for the devs or server-hosting providers. If the devs allow uploading of ads to LFSWorld, OK. Explain to me, what makes you so certain that server providers would't tolerate ads? They can place their own ads onto the server and provide the hosting for free, which in result will bring more servers to the game. And another thing. Why do you think, that downloading ads will make the loading last for minutes? Have you done tests or what? I have an average internet connection and it takes about half a second to load one skin. You would have to download hundreds of ads in order to make the loading last minutes. And I haven't seen a track in LFS with that much advertising placeholders.
Concerning how the LFS is "written", if it can download and change car skins, it could also change the trackside ads.
blackbird04217
3rd May 2008, 13:54
It would take extra bandwidth but server owners could also advert their servers :p It would be neat, but as it is now we have the beginnings of it, at least we can make videos with the ads in there if you felt the need.
This idea has my support. This is for several reasons, not least because unless something like this happens, the CTRA system (and all the CTRA systems that we're trying to make to follow it) have a very finite life. That's simply a fact.
Objections to this idea are mean. Everybody skins their cars up to the hilt with branding of their own, or brands they have a fondness for, or just brands they think are cool-looking. If the skins feature were taken away, you guys would all have an issue. And rightly so.
The CTRA has taken many thousands of man-hours to create, and it takes both money to run it, and literally hundreds of man-hours a month to keep the standards up. So, from a server operator's perspective, it looks bloody cheeky when someone who uses the servers we provide, turns around (with their car skins blazing!) and says that the people who FUND the servers shouldn't be allowed to skin the billboard advertising. It's mean AND it's short-sighted.
In-game billboards already exist. LFS would look weird without it! At the moment, most of the billboards carry fake brands. Some of them carry real brands. If we could secure financial security for the CTRA through relevent brand advertising on those billboards, we have a secure future. In fact we're counting on it coming and we're entirely dependent on it. [edit] or I need to find a full-time, permanent job. Net result would be the same :(
JamesF1
3rd May 2008, 16:14
Top-quality post, Sam :thumbsup:
Gekkibi
3rd May 2008, 16:23
Yes, like SamH said it, it has other purposes than just "make the track look different". I wouldn't mind if there would be "product placements" in LFS.
I would change the billboards on my servers to advertise associations I would like to support or they have supported me (For example, CTRA and Tampere University of Applied Sciences: Supported my "car cockpit simulation in car simulator" project financially).
I'd give a certain yes if I could be sure the ads nice.
I'd give a certain yes if I could be sure the ads nice.
Yeah, I think that's important. Obviously it would have to be down to the individual server ops, and if you found the ads offensive you can vote with your wheels.
I can only vouch for what we'd do, which would be to keep with the spirit of LFS and only have relevent advertising, entirely in keeping with motorsports banner advertising. That doesn't mean that we'd only allow sponsorship from actual motorsports advertisers (although it'd be nice, and would be great if we could attract it), but we'd take a responsible and professional approach to deploying the advertising.. nothing rancid.. nothing that would look out of place, etc.
[edit] Wasn't it Battlefield 2042, where the in-game advertising was for IBM dual-core machines? That wasn't what you'd call well-placed advertising, in a game set 45 years in the future. We'd do better than that, I promise!
First you have to think if the real companies that appear in adverts currently have PAID for that placement. If so they would not be happy if server admins could change them.
While the idea is fine and might give server admins revenue it raises the question of bandwidth etc. The client should also have the option to disable adverts.
Problems include objectionable material, people using stupid image sizes that effect FPS etc.
For me this should be so far down the to do stack that it will not get done. Lots of work to implement. Downloading, sizing, temp storage to not effect original adverts when on different server etc.
not -1 or +1 from me just 0 and only if client can disable like skin downloads.
TBH I would bet many would disable if they could.
Gekkibi
3rd May 2008, 22:01
First you have to think if the real companies that appear in adverts currently have PAID for that placement. If so they would not be happy if server admins could change them.
As far as I know, this is not the case.
While the idea is fine and might give server admins revenue it raises the question of bandwidth etc. The client should also have the option to disable adverts.
Same goes to car & helmet skins. They also requires bandwidth.
Problems include objectionable material, people using stupid image sizes that effect FPS etc.
Same goes to car & helmet skins (No offensive/rasistic/etc skins. Must be 1024x1024/512x512).
The ads in an LFS server amount to less bandwidth than a single low-res skin on a single car on track on the server. Bandwidth is not an issue.
[edit] correction, just a bit over. But that's with the files included in an LFS install. Optimized, I could get those down to next-to-nothing and looking damn good :)
Blackwood ads are less than 220k. That's less than opening a raceauthority.com webpage.
LiveForBoobs
5th May 2008, 16:56
+1 and have an option to disable downloading the ads.
dougie-lampkin
5th May 2008, 17:35
There wouldn't be much point in having them if the user could turn them off. Then nearly everyone would disable downloading them to save bandwidth. Even though as Sam pointed out, they would be less than 200kb for an entire track...They would have to be forced, but maybe the user could decide if they want lo-res/hi-res?
As far as I know, this is not the case.
I asked Scawen about this a couple of years back when I was looking at a setting up a sim centre and wanted to change the adverts (Around the time when S2 came out) and there were deals in place then. They might have lapsed now.
Gekkibi
6th May 2008, 06:18
I asked Scawen about this a couple of years back when I was looking at a setting up a sim centre and wanted to change the adverts (Around the time when S2 came out) and there were deals in place then. They might have lapsed now.
Okay, then I was wrong. The reason for this was that you had "inside-information" and I didn't. ;)
If the sponsor deals are still in place, then I guess this case is closed.
+1 from me because
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=1462
post nr.5 and further...
There wouldn't be much point in having them if the user could turn them off. Then nearly everyone would disable downloading them to save bandwidth. Even though as Sam pointed out, they would be less than 200kb for an entire track...They would have to be forced, but maybe the user could decide if they want lo-res/hi-res?
Bandwidth / file size I doubt is too much of an issue, it's probably principle for most people.
Many are sick of forced advertising everywhere you look. Granted, LFS comes with ads as textures, but these could easily be changed to pics of family n friends or whatever you wanted if that was your preference.
This suggestion IMO, is nothing but greed... just like most marketing droids wet dreams.
Regards,
Ian
If someone posts suggesting real cars or real tracks they got shot down, but real ads... ?
I can understand Sam's point of view, but I'm with Bill Hicks: you have to do what can and plant seeds... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo)
h3adbang3r
7th May 2008, 21:37
Serverside ads could be a real possibility. Instead of uploading them to LFS World, how about from the server itself? A person running a dedi would put their ads into an "Ads" folder, and connecting clients would download them directly from it. It could cause lag on servers with relatively low bandwith, but maybe the server operator could have an option on the max speed ad pictures are downloaded.
mrodgers
8th May 2008, 00:08
Two problems with this....
1. I don't want to go on a server and have a bunch of ridiculous stuff on the ad boards because that is what the server owner set it up like. We already have a community that is full of people who act like immature idiots (young and old alike). You can say don't go there, but then when that's the only place with other's racing, you don't have a choice if you want to race.
So, the solution to that is to have it optional and a default ad textures that your LFS uses if you disable. That leads to the problem number 2.....
2. I do like this idea in the sense of CTRA and what SamH says. The professionalism and maturity of the CTRA guys allow me to believe that they would be extremely mature about ads on the servers. CTRA would have legitimate ads from server sponsors and I'm sure they would be well thought out to fall into the racing sense. But, if you have the option of disabling it, then those sponsors will not receive what they are paying for, the exposure to their ads.
Disclaimer: Sam has been the one vocal in the using ads for sponsorship for the server. I don't mean to imply that CTRA would be the only one who was mature about all this. I'm sure that other teams/systems/leagues that are popular would be just as decent about it. I don't want to make this look like I think CTRA is the only ones that would do it right and all others are in the category of my #1 up there.
Nadeo4441
8th May 2008, 09:29
+1 , but with option to disable ...
[edit] Wasn't it Battlefield 2042, where the in-game advertising was for IBM dual-core machines? That wasn't what you'd call well-placed advertising, in a game set 45 years in the future. We'd do better than that, I promise!BF2142 had in game ads (that I never noticed), BF2's "Tampa Bay" map had a "Intel Quad Core, Do More" ad that looked **** as it's meant to be in the Middle East.
+1 with no option to disable. I'm guessing all of you in this thread have used the CTRA servers, and used servers on the UKCT box at some point - we provide these services free (even though the server itself isn't fee - "we" pay around £100 a month iirc, a cost paid soley by UKCT, mainly by people like Sam). Why is it so evil that UKCT want to fund our servers (when I say fund, I mean get no where near enough money to recoup the cost of the server) with ads? You already have them in LFS to start off with ffs.
EDIT - Really should pay some time :X
[ snip ]
+1 with no option to disable. I'm guessing all of you in this thread have used the CTRA servers, and used servers on the UKCT box at some point
Nope. Never will either :)
- we provide these services free (even though the server itself isn't fee - "we" pay around £100 a month iirc, a cost paid soley by UKCT, mainly by people like Sam). Why is it so evil that UKCT want to fund our servers (when I say fund, I mean get no where near enough money to recoup the cost of the server) with ads? You already have them in LFS to start off with ffs.
EDIT - Really should pay some time :X
Cool! I'll start charging per-download from my various sites hosted on my own equipment (yup, server is bought, not rented).
I _never_ charge for my stuff, I'm far from being rich, and have never and will never place advertising on any of my sites.
e-mail is not a marketing medium, neither are game servers!
Again I state, people wanting this who run servers and see it as some kind of way palming half the bill onto users is nothing less than simple greed.
Regards,
Ian
PS: Even if "forced", there will be ways around it.. and if it does become forced, I will spend time to get around it and publicly publish a how-to.. hell, I'll code a proxy if I have to and release it, that much I promise :)
"we"
Look, its a simple matter - advertising is a blight on what would otherwise be a very good life. There's no getting around this fact and "we" will hate you for forcing it on "us". We also know that it might be a necessity from your point of view, but since "we" see the world from "our" point of view, we will resist the "no option to disable" thing.
Its just a fact of life (as life currently stands...). Don't expect anyone to love you for it. Because we don't.
Not that I care much, since I've not been online for ages. Just pointing out something obvious.
Christopher Raemisch
8th May 2008, 11:57
Look, its a simple matter - advertising is a blight on what would otherwise be a very good life. There's no getting around this fact and "we" will hate you for forcing it on "us". We also know that it might be a necessity from your point of view, but since "we" see the world from "our" point of view, we will resist the "no option to disable" thing.
Its just a fact of life (as life currently stands...). Don't expect anyone to love you for it. Because we don't.
Not that I care much, since I've not been online for ages. Just pointing out something obvious.
I challenge you, imagine any race event, both LFS and Real life, without quality adverts and banners and ads.
Yes a quality control measure would have to be implemented, but think about it, all the cars would be like normal cars, no stickers, just the paint. BORING
Second think of trackside banners, yes there is a possiblity that they could be tacky and tastless, but on the whole the track wouldn't look like a track without banners pasted everywhere.
Take off all the ads you see at a track and remove them, what would it look like? Promotion within LFS is already present, just look at the cars, buildings, and bilboards the only difference now is that they are REAL banners with REAL companies, and they are PAYING for them, no brainer myself, which if anything would increase the quality on quality servers, and vice versa. It will add character to otherwise exactly the same tracks and the server admins personality can be reflected through the use of adverts, which IMO is a good thing.
Sounds like you think advertising makes or breaks visual situations.. news flash.. it doesn't.
Car art can yield high results without company names / logos if the artist has a bit of imagination with a paint brush. Likewise, if armco was just plain armco, what difference does it make? How many racers do you think drive round the track and think 'oh, a Marlboro ad on that 10' piece of armco, I must get me some of them on the way home'.. get real.
If you can't afford to run a server without trying to bludge off of the community to support it, there seems to be one simple answer.............
Regards,
Ian
mcgas001
8th May 2008, 12:21
Btw, I have to say -1 to this. I have never looked at one add in lfs. Nor have they ever caught my eye. LFS is ment to be about driving, I dont pay attention to whats around me. Therefor I deem this useless.:shrug:
Christopher Raemisch
8th May 2008, 12:25
Sounds like you think advertising makes or breaks visual situations.. news flash.. it doesn't.
Car art can yield high results without company names / logos if the artist has a bit of imagination with a paint brush. Likewise, if armco was just plain armco, what difference does it make? How many racers do you think drive round the track and think 'oh, a Marlboro ad on that 10' piece of armco, I must get me some of them on the way home'.. get real.
If you can't afford to run a server without trying to bludge off of the community to support it, there seems to be one simple answer.............
Regards,
Ian
Get out of your little box of thinking for yourself and think of the bigger picture, I am on about spectators and LFS being used in streams and TV deals, a bit different than your local homegrown server, sorry.
Server side ads for the regular server won't mean much, but with servers and events with substancial userbase the numbers could be significant and bring in a potential to increase the service provided on those servers even farther.
Becky Rose
8th May 2008, 12:31
CTRA already has one high visibility advert (it currently says CTRA) and they havn't sold it, despite there being a real tangeable value to that advert slot. It appears in the bottom left corner when spectating and on the $results screen where it was implemented from day 1 (and used to say Logitech), and is equal to or greater than any banner advert. Yet the slot remains vacant.
I think ingame banner advertising is a cool concept, but unless someone goes out and sells it then it would just be the doodling ground of cruise servers...
+1 in theory anyway, it would be great if it worked.
-1 to blocking it being meen, it isnt. Sam, you really should be trying to get a job - or getting on the phone and flogging the ad slot you've got - either works.
Get out of your little box of thinking for yourself and think of the bigger picture, I am on about spectators and LFS being used in streams and TV deals, a bit different than your local homegrown server, sorry.
Please tell me how having someone pay you to rent a server makes for better TV deals.
Server side ads for the regular server won't mean much, but with servers and events with substancial userbase the numbers could be significant and bring in a potential to increase the service provided on those servers even farther.
You seriously need to get your head out of your arse. CTRA servers are "just another group of servers". If you think they're some kind of high n mighty elite version of everyone elses, that's your hangup. Someone else will create such a system if it's in demand, and quite possibly won;'t be trying to scrounge off the community to support it.
Everyone else has managed for years to run their servers without bludging off of the community. People get flamed (and rightly so) for begging for S2 licenses.. to me, this is no better, infact worse as you're trying to eliminate the choice of whether the 3rd party is willing to participate or not.
Go on.. do it, it'll give me a coding challenge to filter your scumware :)
I think Becky has hit the nail on the head, Sam needs to get a real job instead of playing games for a living.
As for thinking it'd be mean to block ads, that's just pathetically hilarious!
Regards,
Ian
I wonder...
Of all the people thinking this bullsh!t is a pro rather than a con, how many of you use absolutely no filtering for spam in e-mails? Be it your own solution (mailwasher type apps) or server-side (DNSbls / SpamAssassin etc).. or, if not under your control at all, have you contacted your mail host provider to ask them to whitelist _all_ mail to your account?
Regards,
Ian
Shotglass
8th May 2008, 12:53
on the whole the track wouldn't look like a track without banners pasted everywhere.
yeah im sure the f1 tracks in the 60s and earlier looked more like barns than tracks
and... no http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2006/20061019.jpg
mcgas001
8th May 2008, 12:53
Someone else will create such a system if it's in demand, and quite possibly won;'t be trying to scrounge off the community to support it.
Grrr..I hate it when people read my mind. :shhh:
Go on.. do it, it'll give me a coding challenge to filter your scumware :)
I want that, When its done. I have a crappy PC as it is, Without making it worse...
I dont see the point in these suggestions. They never make it into lfs so why even bother. This is just a little bin, Used purely to section all the crap that the devs dont wanna see.
Gekkibi
8th May 2008, 13:16
Movies have product placements as well. I know everyone have watched our favorite movie: Fast And The Furious Tokyo Drift ( :D )? When Lucas flipped his american muscle, a bottle of tabasco flew right past the screen.
I think that part should have been cencored! I didn't paid the movie so I can watch commercials (Actually, telling the thruth: I didn't paid for it. My friend forced me to watch it)!
I challenge you, imagine any race event, both LFS and Real life, without quality adverts and banners and ads.
LOL... You seem to have missed my point: really, just for emphasis, don't expect anyone to love you for inflicting this on them. Do it if you want it enough, but don't seek our approval. It isn't available.
Anyway, its irrelevant that real circuits have adverts, it doesn't change the fact that advertising is a visual and conceptual form of cancer, that no one would, in their right mind, wish on anyone else. I always thought the point of LFS fictional cars etc was that we, the userbase, don't have to accept the idiotic and oppressive constraints of the so-called real world, and we could just concentrate on a quality driving simulation with concomitant quality racing. Am I wrong?
However I accept your challenge: first I could think of (http://www.gurstondown.org/gallery2008.htm) but there are loads of other examples...
don't expect anyone to love you for inflicting this on them. Do it if you want it enough, but don't seek our approval. It isn't available.
I think that's quite fair, really :) If people genuinely object, they will do so by not racing on the servers. Some people would never race on our servers anyway, so I wouldn't really give any credence to their opinions. It would be silly to.
[edit] What will be will be, and there's no point in labouring it here.
Grrr..I hate it when people read my mind. :shhh:
Heh. An open-source version would be sweet! No forced ads, open code and non-elitist development attitudes would pretty much make CTRA servers null&void after a short period I think :)
I want that, When its done. I have a crappy PC as it is, Without making it worse...
I think it'd be one of the more popular tools I'd have coded if it becomes needed. Will be funny to see how quickly the thread gets removed from here when it gets announced, and by who ;)
I dont see the point in these suggestions. They never make it into lfs so why even bother. This is just a little bin, Used purely to section all the crap that the devs dont wanna see.
Me neither.. and this topic was already brought up on this forum ~6 months or so ago IIRC, and got pretty much the same responses too.
Other than marketing retards and "can't-be-arsed-to-get-a-job" layabouts, no one else likes or wants to see advertising.. but these monkeys just don't get it. So out of touch with the real world it's laughable :)
Regards,
Ian
Still just greed, IMO. There's simply no reason for it.
If you can't stand the heat (read: can't afford a server), then get out of the kitchen (you know how the rest goes).
I've run and paid for my own server etc for the past 7 years. Never once have I considered advertising as a low-life method of generating revenue. I go out of my way to filter _all_ advertising I come across on the net using various methods including 300+ domains as DNS null zones.
I spent many hours coding various tools for the community, many hours creating 3DS scenes for renders, many hours offering help / advice on 3D stuff (not that I'm an expert, but people asked me (or at least on our team forum) as I created the scenes I guess). I also spend many many hours maintaining filtering for e-mail for various family members and friends. Have I ever asked anyone for a penny? or do I stick ads all over the place where I know people will look to get info / downloads? No. I want to run my sites, want to run my own server. If it comes to a point where I can't, I'll remove my server from where it's colo'd and think of something else to do.
Either way, I will circumvent their attempts and make the result publicly available if it ever becomes a reality.. maybe have it use a white / black list.. and of course, CTRA will be blacklisted by default :)
Regards,
Ian
TFalke55
8th May 2008, 14:24
I'd say +1 for the idea. But on my mind, only special accounts/LFS S2 Licence owners should be allowed to upload such things, for example all the mods here of LFSforum.net. I have the fear that there could be some kind of abuse, when everyone is allowed to upload. We have BMW, Castrol, ATL, Bridgestone, Avon, Michelin, Intel as let's call it "official" sponsors, due to some agreements between the devs and the companies. If anyone don't want them to be the ads on his/her LFS, it is possible to change it.
The for CTRA or some serious leagues (ESL Sports, eTM, GSL, MoE, ...), it is quiet useful, as they do have some contracts with companies, and this should be implemented for them for sure. They are getting the money by sponsors, they are getting the prizes by sponsors, and as they are professional leagues, they should get treated proffesionaly.
dougie-lampkin
8th May 2008, 14:28
Do real life F1 spectators/drivers have an option to remove all track-side ads? Nope. Do they deter from the racing experience? Nope. In fact, are they detrimental to anything whatsoever? Nope.
Fair enough, there would be some childish idiots who would put up stupid ads. But we all know that all of the proper serious servers would have proper serious ads. I think it's a brilliant idea. It's not like spam really, no-one would be forcing you to look at the ads. You can still race normally. I have never heard of the Intel/BMW ads or any of LFS' made-up companies' ads distracting anyone or causing any sort of problem. In fact I have most of mine replaced with real-life ads to make it a bit more realistic.
As for e-mail spam, that's slightly different. You are being personally targeted there. It's rather like harassment compared to LFS ads...
@ Ian: No-one gives a crap if you don't want to put ads on your server, and you've blocked ads from over 300 domains. That's your business...No-one would think any worse of you for wanting to earn something back for hard work by putting up a couple of ads.
[ snip ]
It's not like spam really, no-one would be forcing you to look at the ads.
How would it not be? If they're served by the server and there's no 'disable IGA' option in LFS, you _are_ forced to look at them, directly or indirectly.
You can still race normally. I have never heard of the Intel/BMW ads or any of LFS' made-up companies' ads distracting anyone or causing any sort of problem. In fact I have most of mine replaced with real-life ads to make it a bit more realistic.
You're seriously missing the point. It's not the content, it's the principle.
As for e-mail spam, that's slightly different. You are being personally targeted there. It's rather like harassment compared to LFS ads...
Not really. Spammers don't know me or most others they try to spam from Adam.. hardly personally targeted.
@ Ian: No-one gives a crap if you don't want to put ads on your server, and you've blocked ads from over 300 domains. That's your business...No-one would think any worse of you for wanting to earn something back for hard work by putting up a couple of ads.
Some may, most would just block them.
Why can't people just do things for the enjoyment of doing things these days? Everything has to be about money and earning a "quick buck".. it's pathetic.
Regards,
Ian
[ snip ]
I cannot understand having such a closed mind to the option when in reality it doesnt change the general racers experience at all and would only further support the LFS/simracing community as a whole.
[ snip ]
It's not a case of having a closed mind. I have a very open mind to many things, just not forced advertising where some monkey who can't be arsed to get a job thinks he can plaster ads everywhere to make up for it. Simply principle.
Regards,
Ian
In my opinion, relevent banner advertising opens a huge number of doors for racing in LFS. It increases LFS's profile to corporate interest, which would benefit LFS as a whole with a broader awareness and acceptance of LFS as a racing simulator. This would ultimately result in more racers in servers, and this would result in busier servers.. all at no cost to existing racers (except maybe that more of the current banners become real companies.. ouch.. devastating :rolleyes:)
However, the threat to circumvent any type of billboard skinning, because you're completely OCD about self-denial of the existence of advertising and marketing, and threatening to push that far and wide will, guaranteed, do nothing at all to benefit LFS. Your determination to kill off anything that could potentially bring more awareness of LFS and choke off the existing racing in LFS is a bit sick, really.
That you declare your desire to
make CTRA servers null&void after a short period I think :)
is a bit weird, a bit scarey and quite a bit obsessive.. but I'm sure, if you succeed in this mission of yours, should the opportunity arise, you'll at least have the thanks and admiration of the entire LFS community with the CTRA's passing. WTG you.
You're seriously missing the point. It's not the content, it's the principle.
Of course it's not the content. That's obvious... or you wouldn't have created the heavily branded skins you have. I don't think you have the community's interests in mind at all. I sense a gleeful opportunist, eager to take down the "corporate monsters" with a bit of hackware. Nothing more, screw everything else. At least, that's how your posts read to me anyway :)
Gekkibi
8th May 2008, 14:58
Some are worried about immature ads... Well, what about immature skins..?
And some companies/associations are sponsoring my S2 Voucher Competititon. That way they can have a FBM skin with their logo/web-site address etc. And I even force the competitiors to use these skins. Am I a capitalist now?
dougie-lampkin
8th May 2008, 15:01
How would it not be? If they're served by the server and there's no 'disable IGA' option in LFS, you _are_ forced to look at them, directly or indirectly.
But it's not like someone has put a big massive ad on your windscreen. If you're properly racing, you most likely wouldn't see them as you're focusing on the road ;)
You're seriously missing the point. It's not the content, it's the principle.
I'm not missing the point though. It's you who is focusing on the "spam/money-earning" side of it, whereas most people would call it added immersion :shrug: I don't mind having a few ads around the track if it helps to keep CTRA and the like going.
Not really. Spammers don't know me or most others they try to spam from Adam.. hardly personally targeted.
They're sending it to your personal inbox, meaning you have been personally targeted. It doesn't matter how many people they send it to, you've still been personally identified.
Why can't people just do things for the enjoyment of doing things these days? Everything has to be about money and earning a "quick buck".. it's pathetic.
Because as Sam said, it's costing UKCT to keep the CTRA running. You may be too honest to place ads, but if the opportunity came up, I don't see why not. If it's covering their expenses, and they're not using it to their advantage to make a huge profit, I'd have no problem with it...
felplacerad
8th May 2008, 15:17
If IGA in the form of billboards would make it possible for us to seal a deal with a sponsor which could provide a service that would be relevant to our community (such as web- or game server hosting) I would not hesitate to use it.
We're currently using an Insim button to display a banner for 60 seconds as you connect to server. Even though only one single person has had a complaint I'd much rather use billboard advertising. (FYI the person in question withdrew his complaint when he realized that displaying that particular banner had made it possible for us to upgrade our previously struggling server).
/ liveforspeed.se staff
If it's covering their expenses, and they're not using it to their advantage to make a huge profit, I'd have no problem with it...
Putting this in perspective, everything the CTRA has been created to be has been specifically to benefit the community. Revenue from ads would simply reinforce and extend on that driving principle. Sod the anti-ad "principle", that's just plain small/narrow-minded. With revenue, we can start doing cool things like giving prizes etc. And yes, that's specifically why we'd like this.
Anyway, I set out my stall here. As has been said before, what will be will be. I'm out.. abuse at will ;)
@Sean, I dunno what you're on about. If you want to make a system like X-System, go for it. :shrug:
[edit] Neither you nor Ian know diddly shit about my personal circumstances. If I want you to know them, I'll tell you them. I don't, and I damn well don't need to justify any of my circumstances to the likes of you.
Everything has to be about money and earning a "quick buck".. it's pathetic.
I don't think the CTRA would ever get enough ad revenue to make money tbh, all that the CTRA guys can hope for is for the running costs to be eased.
But it's not like someone has put a big massive ad on your windscreen. If you're properly racing, you most likely wouldn't see them as you're focusing on the road ;)
Then why bother? That all but cancels out your point below about immersion.
I'm not missing the point though. It's you who is focusing on the "spam/money-earning" side of it, whereas most people would call it added immersion :shrug:
Then let the users skin them themselves, rather than some server admin thinking he knows best as to what we (users / racers) want to see. We can make the billboards as immersive as we want then, no ifs, no buts, and no stupidly "misplaced" (unrelated) ads.
I don't mind having a few ads around the track if it helps to keep CTRA and the like going.
Then I'm sure you'll go upwards and me downwards when our days are over :)
They're sending it to your personal inbox, meaning you have been personally targeted. It doesn't matter how many people they send it to, you've still been personally identified.
And ads on a server will be shown directly to my screen, regardless how many racers are connected to the server at that point in time... just like ads on web sites.
Because as Sam said, it's costing UKCT to keep the CTRA running.
Awww.. ah, ah... oh no, I thought I could almost feel my heart bleeding then :)
Maybe he should get a job instead, like the rest of us instead of thinking the world owes him a favour.
You may be too honest to place ads, but if the opportunity came up, I don't see why not. If it's covering their expenses, and they're not using it to their advantage to make a huge profit, I'd have no problem with it...
I doubt I'm too honest.. I'm no angel, there's just way too much advertising in the world already.. why do some want even more in something that should just be some recreational fun other than that they're either too lazy or lack the IQ to get a real job.
Regards,
Ian
dougie-lampkin
8th May 2008, 15:39
Then why bother? That all but cancels out your point below about immersion.
Then let the users skin them themselves, rather than some server admin thinking he knows best as to what we (users / racers) want to see. We can make the billboards as immersive as we want then, no ifs, no buts, and no stupidly "misplaced" (unrelated) ads.
Not really. I know that real-life drivers don't get to grab some paintbrushes and put their own ads on the track banners. I also have more important things to be doing than making my own ads for LFS. I don't think real life drivers stop to stare at ads on the track, yet without them it wouldn't feel like a proper track.
Then I'm sure you'll go upwards and me downwards when our days are over :)
I personally don't care how UKCT pays for CTRA. But I know it's probably LFS' most popular and fun league, and if this keeps it going, what's the problem? What have you got against CTRA?
And ads on a server will be shown directly to my screen, regardless how many racers are connected to the server at that point in time... just like ads on web sites.
But a sign for "Castrol" is different from "Cheap warez! Cheap viagra! Go 100% longer!" etc. coming into my inbox. They have sent that maliciously, by looking for my info. If a server has ads in LFS, they haven't been looking for my info to send it to me. When I join I see the ads. There is a difference...
Awww.. ah, ah... oh no, I thought I could almost feel my heart bleeding then :)
Maybe he should get a job instead, like the rest of us instead of thinking the world owes him a favour.
That makes next to no sense. Why should good people like Sam have devoted countless hours to programming and maintaining the CTRA, and also constantly pour in their own cash, just for people like you to come along? I don't see you managing, paying for, and programming LFS' most popular servers, and on top of that not asking for anything in return :shrug:
I doubt I'm too honest.. I'm no angel, there's just way too much advertising in the world already.. why do some want even more in something that should just be some recreational fun other than that they're either too lazy or lack the IQ to get a real job.
Hmm...so the owners and managers of big advertising companies are too lazy and have a low IQ? Even though they make more money a year than you will probably earn in your entire life? Right...
As silverarrows said, well done for being a cold, emotionless bastard. We salute you. :rolleyes:
dougie-lampkin
8th May 2008, 16:12
I said what where.....? lol :shrug: - i meant to merely point out that such a determined, inflexible view does little for his point ;)
Same point, but mine was more straightforward ;)
Gekkibi
8th May 2008, 16:20
If something in your personal life stops you from working(Disability etc etc) thats a different matter. Even still, You still want to advertise. I really hate a website, When you go there and there is crappy google adverts. Its just what CTRA will end up like...
CTRA will end up having a google advert if they'll have modified billboards in LFS? Vise versa.
Stigpt
8th May 2008, 17:33
This idea has my support. This is for several reasons, not least because unless something like this happens, the CTRA system (and all the CTRA systems that we're trying to make to follow it) have a very finite life. That's simply a fact.
Objections to this idea are mean. Everybody skins their cars up to the hilt with branding of their own, or brands they have a fondness for, or just brands they think are cool-looking. If the skins feature were taken away, you guys would all have an issue. And rightly so.
The CTRA has taken many thousands of man-hours to create, and it takes both money to run it, and literally hundreds of man-hours a month to keep the standards up. So, from a server operator's perspective, it looks bloody cheeky when someone who uses the servers we provide, turns around (with their car skins blazing!) and says that the people who FUND the servers shouldn't be allowed to skin the billboard advertising. It's mean AND it's short-sighted.
In-game billboards already exist. LFS would look weird without it! At the moment, most of the billboards carry fake brands. Some of them carry real brands. If we could secure financial security for the CTRA through relevent brand advertising on those billboards, we have a secure future. In fact we're counting on it coming and we're entirely dependent on it. [edit] or I need to find a full-time, permanent job. Net result would be the same :(
I am quoting this AGAIN emphasize this:
While you people go "aaagggh no advertising! that is meeeaaannn" you forget people are PAYING (and playing bloody well! - 80€/month ) to provide servers for YOU to play in.
Now this is IMPORTANT, so read up:
If the billboards are skinnable, they can be SOLD. That means MONEY.
Money in the game server = more servers, more quality servers, more development on the gameserver side.
Money in the GAME (since Scawen COULD sell some non-skinnable bilboards, or get royalties since they are well.. using HIS game), means more money can be put into LFS. Which means more goodies.
They no1 thing you WANT on your multiplayer game is... MONEY. if you can get the REAL MONEY makers into the game, it is GOOD.
So what if you get to see a "Vodaphone" or a "BP petrol" or a "Coca-Cola" or a "Disney" add on a bilboard? HOW is that ANY different from a CocaCola car, or a Disney car, or a Vodaphone car, or a Ubuntu car (all of which I've seen on-track). The ONLY difference (and its a GOOD difference) is that in this case, the publicity is PAID, and its not a copywrite infringment.
Sometimes I get the feeling some marketing dudes get into games that allow skins and "seed" the comunity with skins from their own company.
In fact, I've been talking to a local computer store to place an add of theirs on my car-skins. The current arrangement is: if they get someone to buy SOMETHING and then check the "where did you hear of us" in the "from a computer game" section, then Ill get credit in the store (they cant (yet) gimme money directly) AND the first guy to do that, Ill get whatever he buys.
Im just waiting for their website to get completed :D (and hoping for a mega-computer buy from someone when I place the add) :D
Now, imagine the above case on a SERVER.
OR on Scawen's bank account.
nihil
10th May 2008, 15:52
you forget people are PAYING (and playing bloody well! - 80€/month ) to provide servers for YOU to play in.
Now this is IMPORTANT, so read up:
No. No one has forgotten that money buys stuff. (EDIT: except the LFS team, who are continually (mis?)quoted as saying that no amount of extra money will speed development). So stop acting like an over-enthusiastic puppy.
kiss me
10th May 2008, 20:11
i vote +1
it would be cool, to advertise upcoming events etc, but then:
upload to lfsw or so, and that it shows the same on all servers, but it switches, each day or week or so
but that is going to be hard :s
StableX
12th May 2008, 16:16
In my opinion, relevent banner advertising opens a huge number of doors for racing in LFS. It increases LFS's profile to corporate interest, which would benefit LFS as a whole with a broader awareness and acceptance of LFS as a racing simulator. This would ultimately result in more racers in servers, and this would result in busier servers.. all at no cost to existing racers (except maybe that more of the current banners become real companies.. ouch.. devastating :rolleyes:)
I agree with you here but I think any relevant banner advertising should be managed and retained by the LFS team and any revenue derived goes to them. This would be the greatest benefit to the community and would somehow feed back to the users through non-price change for S2 or some other way. Valve have ingame advertising for their older games as does NADEO. Where NADEO differs is that they have their basic adverts but any other "extra adverts" can be added by the track maker.
To me it's simple. LFS developers should manage and control any advert revenue.
Gekkibi
12th May 2008, 16:19
Anyone: PENIS ENLARGEMENT -billboard?
Ignore my post. Carry on.
Chaos
12th May 2008, 23:30
Anyone: PENIS ENLARGEMENT -billboard?
i don't know a server admin who would put this up on his server... sure some kiddos server maybe, but do you go to such servers? I think the majority of people go to well known public servers or league servers... And I seriously doubt that you will ever see one of these ads on these servers...
Sueycide_FD
13th May 2008, 01:31
For a second i thought it said AIDS
Gekkibi
13th May 2008, 06:27
i don't know a server admin who would put this up on his server... sure some kiddos server maybe, but do you go to such servers? I think the majority of people go to well known public servers or league servers... And I seriously doubt that you will ever see one of these ads on these servers...
Like I said: Ignore my post.
I have to point something out here. I surf with an add blocker because while there are responsible advertisers it is NOT the norm.
I am sure CTRA and the like will be responsible but this is not always the case. This system needs to be controlled from client side or blockers will be made, not like the forum is short of people involved in writing software lol.
I do hope that those who want to be able to force adverts don't want advert protection and excrytion systems (call it DRM) added to LFS to make sure the adverts are seen?
Gekkibi
13th May 2008, 08:27
What's wrong with the DRM?
Oh, wait... :smileypul
wsinda
13th May 2008, 09:02
Everybody skins their cars up to the hilt with branding of their own, or brands they have a fondness for, or just brands they think are cool-looking. If the skins feature were taken away, you guys would all have an issue.I wouldn't. I don't use skins. I have skin downloading switched off, partly because skins cause an fps hit on my old PC, and partly because the skins distract my eyes from the racing.
The CTRA has taken many thousands of man-hours to create, and it takes both money to run it, and literally hundreds of man-hours a month to keep the standards up.Sure, running a good server costs money. Then charge for using it. Ask Scawen to create a system for transferring money from the LFS accounts to the server operators. If you want to bring in the economy, then do it for real: give users a choice between racing on free + ad-filled servers and paid-for + ad-free servers.
I challenge you, imagine any race event, both LFS and Real life, without quality adverts and banners and ads... then you'd have racing like it was in the 1960s and before. Pure, un-stickered racing. Yay! :thumb:
If the billboards are skinnable, they can be SOLD. That means MONEY.Correct, and guess where that MONEY comes from. From the RACERS that visit the server. Because if the ads can be sold, that means that they work. And if an ad works, it means that the people who see it will buy stuff -- things that they wouldn't have bought otherwise.
In short: if you fill your server with ads, you are extracting money from your visitors. It would be the same as when you charge directly for the racing, except that
- the racers don't know how much they pay, so
- they can't choose the server that offers the most value-for-money, and
- the stream of money is indirect, so there is more overhead cost, and the racers will pay more for their racing.
And finally, as Woz pointed out, non-optional display of ads quickly leads to an arms race like we have seen on web pages: ad blockers, encrypted ads, DRM, animated ads, popups, etc.
Gekkibi
13th May 2008, 09:31
Interesting. I have never bought BMW, Coca-Cola, Red Bull, IBM, Siemens, Nokia, etc because there is a ad on racing event. Am I special?
Chaos
13th May 2008, 10:43
In short: if you fill your server with ads, you are extracting money from your visitors. It would be the same as when you charge directly for the racing, except that
- the racers don't know how much they pay, so
- they can't choose the server that offers the most value-for-money, and
- the stream of money is indirect, so there is more overhead cost, and the racers will pay more for their racing.
what? racers don't pay anything, only those who buy the ads pay something... I don't have a "pay-per-adview" system installed in my eyes... do you? ;)
wsinda
13th May 2008, 10:56
Interesting. I have never bought BMW, Coca-Cola, Red Bull, IBM, Siemens, Nokia, etc because there is a ad on racing event. Am I special?Either you are special, or you are ignorant about advertising. The effects of ads have been researched to death. If it was so easy to ignore ads, and not be influenced by them, then advertising wouldn't be the multi-billion dollar business that it is.
Perhaps your buying behavior is not influenced much. But that won't be true for the guy next to you on the starting grid. On average, the ads work. And if they happen not to work in simracing, then the companies won't pay much to get them displayed, so the server admin still needs to find other funding.
Gekkibi
13th May 2008, 11:10
I have used to drink Pepsi, and no advertisement would change me to buy Coca-Cola. I also don't like the taste of Red Bull, so no advertisement would make me to like it. I also don't pick car brand by some advertisement. So what if it has nice big billboard? What about other features beside of that appearance I can see? IBM? Never bought an IBM.
But "supporting" something is different. When I see an advertisement on something I think "Okay, those wanted to support this event. Nicely done". For example, lets take a skiing competition for child. It is really nice that (For example) a bank wanted to sponsor the event.
I remember from my childhood a skiining competition sponsored by KOP (A bank. KOP merged to SYP, then changed the name to Merita and after that Nordea). They funded the prizes (But still, it wasn't "KOP skiining competition").
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