Round 3: Race Report & Penalties

[BenjiMC]

Qualifying has begun, Wind is 3mph in north east direction.

Penalties:
#25 Alias Racing 2: Dangerous driving in qualifying, will start from rear.
#27 Northstar R4R: Dangerous driving in qualifying, will start from rear.
#16 Dynamic Racing: Spun #03 Adaptive Racing at start, gets SG penalty.
#18 C4Racing: Black flag, Unsafe driving
#05 Sonicrealms Racing: DT for avoidable contact with #06 Concept Racing.
#27 Northstar R4R: DT for chat.
#04 TDRT 1: SG for aggressive avoidable contact with lapping car #01 CoRe Racing.
#14 My3id Gaming: DT for avoidable contact with #07 Alias Racing 1.
#14 My3id Gaming: DT for rough driving with #02 S3Racing 1 and passing under SC period.
#25 Alias Racing 2: Black flag, Unsafe driving
#24 Speed Core Racing Team: DT for chat.

[srdsprinter]

#30 disco'd and returned, is specing the rest of qual.

Thanks & GL! :thumb:

[BenjiMC]

unlucky Stu, it wasn't a terrible lap that you managed to get in before the disco anyway :thumbsup:

[srdsprinter]

Np :)

[niall09]

Why aren't My3id Gaming picked up on the tracker?

[DeadWolfBones]

We're looking into it.

[dawesdust_12]

Lap 8 - #32 disadvantaged #13. Sam says it was rather deliberate in his opinion.

Take a look plz.

[DeadWolfBones]

Need you to post a mpredited replay once Sam's stint is done.

[Franke]

#07 hit by 14 on lap 13, hit and didn't let us right the car, just kept pushing our car...

Regards
Franke

[BranislavS]

I decided to end the race ,had seriosly bad cramp in hand and I was danger on track (no teammate ready so end for #10).
So guys good luck!

[racer hero]

Lap 8 - #32 disadvantaged #13. Sam says it was rather deliberate in his opinion.

Take a look plz.

Sam shouldnt of been trying to pass in the chicane. Enough said.

Kenneth

[rcpilot]

Other: 04 tdrt r. kolz
Us: 01 core c. green

Whatever lap I called for the sc, around lap 44/45

Kolz came back out on track on the bridge sweeper causing me to slow way down and still do some tricky dodging maneuvers. Quite distracted by this and I brake a little late off the bridge, but keep it on the track. (Slowing me way down.) Make the corner side by side with R.Kolz and he slams into me causing me to get stuck in the sand.

[James Montgomery]

I still say that SR's penalty was not a good decision as i was sandwiched between 2 cars.

[nmanley]

30 car was punted onto it's roof during SC period by guys weaving to heat their tires and losing control!!!

Protest and replay to follow! NOW why can't the 30 car rejoin under that circumstances. Being stuck in the SAND (01 during GREEN Flag racing) is not the same???

[srdjanmilasinovic]

Our driver 26 I.Teklic was hitted by 11 D.Polma and loss control over car in 49 lap.

[nmanley]

Other: 04 tdrt r. kolz
Us: 01 core c. green

Whatever lap I called for the sc, around lap 44/45

Kolz came back out on track on the bridge sweeper causing me to slow way down and still do some tricky dodging maneuvers. Quite distracted by this and I brake a little late off the bridge, but keep it on the track. (Slowing me way down.) Make the corner side by side with R.Kolz and he slams into me causing me to get stuck in the sand.
\
Well your OUT then as similar thing happened to the 30 car, under Yellow, and NOW we are out. Never mind, different situation but we are robbed by yet another poor admin decision.

[srdsprinter]

#14 hit the #2 under SC, causing a half-spin. At the hour mark

[R.Kolz]

Other: 04 tdrt r. kolz
Us: 01 core c. green

Whatever lap I called for the sc, around lap 44/45

Kolz came back out on track on the bridge sweeper causing me to slow way down and still do some tricky dodging maneuvers. Quite distracted by this and I brake a little late off the bridge, but keep it on the track. (Slowing me way down.) Make the corner side by side with R.Kolz and he slams into me causing me to get stuck in the sand.

Yes, in deed you brake too late and are off the racing line. I drive my normal race line and can´t even see you as we make contact.
...

[DeadWolfBones]

#14 hit the #2 under SC, causing a half-spin. At the hour mark

I need a lap number.

[bdshan]

The #30 was hit under safety car by the #14. This was a result of the #16 hitting the #26 and both of them ending up sideways on the track. I (#30) t-boned #16 then rear ended by #14. I was hit a second time in the air. I end up over the barrier on my side. End of race. Not good since it was due to others not following the rules.

I'll get the replay in a moment

[DeadWolfBones]

Our driver 26 I.Teklic was hitted by 11 D.Polma and loss control over car in 49 lap.

This was a racing incident. No penalty.

[DeadWolfBones]

FYI: The tracker is currently not trustworthy. The positions and total laps are incorrect, but you should be able to still use it to tell who is many laps down.

Sorry about this, it's a learning process for everyone.

[MZWiZard]

#07 hit by 14 on lap 13, hit and didn't let us right the car, just kept pushing our car...

Regards
Franke

Follow up with edited replay.

Number 14 D. Lind divebombs me into the corner after the back-straight and furthermore keeps on pushing, causing me to loose several positions. SG penalty recommended.

[srdsprinter]

#14 hit the #2 under SC, causing a half-spin. At the hour mark


We're currently coming up with a MPR. To be presented shortly.

[bdshan]

finally got the MPR small enough to upload.

[DeadWolfBones]

finally got the MPR small enough to upload.

There's not really an easy way to assign blame here. There's no single scapegoat. Once again it was our old friend the accordion effect, and you were the unfortunate victim.

The #15 left a slightly large gap to the car ahead coming to the green, then sped up to catch up. He then slowed down when he caught that car. The #26, behind him, also slowed down. The #16 behind him did not slow quickly enough and hit the #26. Both cars spun, and the #30 was collected by the #13 who also braked but not fast enough. This sent the #30 flying over the #14 who was well ahead, on his side, and through the barrier.

If there is one person most at fault, I would have to say it's the #16 driver, but really most everyone involved had a hand in it, either through action or (mostly inaction).

I have to judge this as a racing incident (though a very large one), similar to the restart mess at BL1.

I can only hope that drivers learn their lessons over time, give proper room, and maintain SC speed. It's the slowing down and speeding up that ultimately causes these accidents.

[bdshan]

There's not really an easy way to assign blame here. There's no single scapegoat. Once again it was our old friend the accordion effect, and you were the unfortunate victim.

The #15 left a slightly large gap to the car ahead coming to the green, then sped up to catch up. He then slowed down when he caught that car. The #26, behind him, also slowed down. The #16 behind him did not slow quickly enough and hit the #26. Both cars spun, and the #30 was collected by the #13 who also braked but not fast enough. This sent the #30 flying over the #14 who was well ahead, on his side, and through the barrier.

If there is one person most at fault, I would have to say it's the #16 driver, but really most everyone involved had a hand in it, either through action or (mostly inaction).

I have to judge this as a racing incident (though a very large one), similar to the restart mess at BL1.

I can only hope that drivers learn their lessons over time, give proper room, and maintain SC speed. It's the slowing down and speeding up that ultimately causes these accidents.

I'll let this die, but the rules state:

2.5) A driver who spins during a SC period must rejoin the field at the end of the line. Any such incident will be investigated by the marshals. If the spin was not self-inflicted, it will result in a SG penalty for the offending car once racing resumes.


Somebody caused the spins.

[srdsprinter]

Lol. they're never going to learn their lesson, because it goes unpunished and the 30 car becomes the victim.

But i see what you're saying.


MPR edit isn't working for the replay of the 14 hitting the 02 under SC.

[DeadWolfBones]

MPR edit isn't working for the replay of the 14 hitting the 02 under SC.

I'll go see if I can dig it up from another replay.

[nmanley]

There's not really an easy way to assign blame here. There's no single scapegoat. Once again it was our old friend the accordion effect, and you were the unfortunate victim.

The #15 left a slightly large gap to the car ahead coming to the green, then sped up to catch up. He then slowed down when he caught that car. The #26, behind him, also slowed down. The #16 behind him did not slow quickly enough and hit the #26. Both cars spun, and the #30 was collected by the #13 who also braked but not fast enough. This sent the #30 flying over the #14 who was well ahead, on his side, and through the barrier.

If there is one person most at fault, I would have to say it's the #16 driver, but really most everyone involved had a hand in it, either through action or (mostly inaction).

I have to judge this as a racing incident (though a very large one), similar to the restart mess at BL1.

I can only hope that drivers learn their lessons over time, give proper room, and maintain SC speed. It's the slowing down and speeding up that ultimately causes these accidents.

I don't see what your saying other than you admins can't make a freaking fair decision. THIS WAS A DAMN SC PERIOD! We should have been ALLOWED to rejoin. Goddamn this has gotten old and I feel I'm done fukin around with this mess. 4Hr race take a bit more prep and practise and I don't like feeling like it is a waist due to poor decisions by others in charge.

Thank you for the effort but it's just not enough.

[DeadWolfBones]

I don't see what your saying other than you admins can't make a freaking fair decision. THIS WAS A DAMN SC PERIOD! We should have been ALLOWED to rejoin. Goddamn this has gotten old and I feel I'm done fukin around with this mess. 4Hr race take a bit more prep and practise and I don't like feeling like it is a waist due to poor decisions by others in charge.

Thank you for the effort but it's just not enough.

Tell me, then... who do you think should be penalized for this, and why?

[nmanley]

Tell me, then... who do you think should be penalized for this, and why?


Well it for damn sure should NOT be the 30 car. What the hell is wrong with you guys telling the (MY) driver to spectate rather than rejoin. I mean GODDAMN that's some Shit there buddy.

We're screwed out of two weeks work cause of that crap. The hell with this stuff. I'm DONE with it. The 30 car will have a new team manager cause I'm freaking done.

[DeadWolfBones]

I'll go see if I can dig it up from another replay.

Though you didn't spin around from the contact, it was unnecessary regardless, and the #14 passed you and didn't give the position back. DT for #14 for rough driving & passing under yellow.

[DeadWolfBones]

Well it for damn sure should NOT be the 30 car. What the hell is wrong with you guys telling the (MY) driver to spectate rather than rejoin. I mean GODDAMN that's some Shit there buddy.

We're screwed out of two weeks work cause of that crap. The hell with this stuff. I'm DONE with it. The 30 car will have a new team manager cause I'm freaking done.

The rule as it stands is "If you flip, your race is over," not "if you flip, your race is over unless..."

We can't change the rules mid-race. It's a very unfortunate circumstance for your team and I'm sorry that it happened, but things like this happen in real life racing, too.

[Dan Josefsen]

Why was nr25 told to spectate?

[DeadWolfBones]

We felt that your car's standard of driving was generally poor. There was a similar issue with #18.

We'll be getting to you post-race with a rundown of our concerns.

Sorry, but we did it in the best interest of the other cars on-track.

Thanks.

[Dan Josefsen]

so I get driven off track by two cars which I give plenty of room for, then when crawling back to pit, being 2 turns or so away You feel I should be black flagged.

Im not happy with that judgement.

[DeadWolfBones]

so I get driven off track by two cars which I give plenty of room for, then when crawling back to pit, being 2 turns or so away You feel I should be black flagged.

Im not happy with that judgement.


This was with regard to the driving in your car throughout the event, not just one incident.

[MZWiZard]

Lap 148 - Car behind 07 F.Sonne rammed our car, causing a spin-off. We went from 5. to 9. position.

[DeadWolfBones]

Lap 148 - Car behind 07 F.Sonne rammed our car, causing a spin-off. We went from 5. to 9. position.

#07 ran into the back of the #22, who bobbled a bit in the chicane. #22 spun and the #07 slowed a bit due to teh contact. The #29, following, ran into the back of the #07 with nowhere to go.

Racing incident, no penalty.

[niall09]

Lap 166 i think. R.Bessa brake tested me on the start finish line.

[pearcy_2k7]

Lots of that going on, not very happy about it tbh.

[Bessa74]

Lap 166 i think. R.Bessa brake tested me on the start finish line.

See the replay please...

[niall09]

See the replay please...

Why did you brake suddenly when I was in your slipstream so?

[Bessa74]

Why did you brake suddenly when I was in your slipstream so?

I have a car in my left, you att my back, i give you the race line, but you prefer to pass me by the rigt side, you have no room to pass me by that side and i just want to warn your that i was gonna to brake early to let you pass.
Unfortunely you was too close and we colide:shrug:
Pls see the replay and tell me want do you thing that hapened:thumb:
Btw, good race:thumbsup:

[SamH]

Need you to post a mpredited replay once Sam's stint is done.
There was simply no accomodation for my car being on the track at all. I don't think it was malicious, just poor. No victim here.

[[GR]Evolution]

Penalties:
#16 Dynamic Racing: Spun #03 Adaptive Racing at start, gets SG penalty.

This incident cost my team a whole race and only an SG given? I expect you to do something more in order to avoid such incident from happening again in the future, probably from the same driver/team...

[srdsprinter]

Evolution;781731']This incident cost my team a whole race and only an SG given? I expect you to do something more in order to avoid such incident from happening again in the future, probably from the same driver/team...
Agree here, the severity of the pentalty could have been increased about 10 fold, and still been too little.

Fortunately for you guys though, the incident did not in fact cost you the race.

Cars weaving and speeding through the first SC period did in fact cost team #30 the race, as they got the shaft end of the stick when a wreck occured.

Driving like idiots under caution is plaguing this series, if you can't drive in proximity to others without crashing, get the hell off the track.

-------------------------

On lap 179 (leaders lap), the leader bumped the 02 off the track going into turn 1. The 02 was gaining rapidly on the 14th place car, and the 19 had over a lap advantage on the field.

It's understood it was a simple mistake, not malicious, but please do take care to leave room, especially when the lapped car is completely yielding the position.

-------------------------------

All others aside, I had a lot of fun today. Very fun track, good conditions, and it was great to see everyone interact with a lot more respect than I'm used to.

My hat is off to TDRT, who really put in some good clean racing there at the end.

----------------------------------

The Admin/Programmers/Marshalls did a very nice job, despite the challenges bestowed upon them. I believe the $SC bind worked as intended and may have helped out a lot.

The series learns and grows from every event, I believe this one is no different.

-----------------------------------------------

We've dealt with it time and time again. Kids not being in control of their cars under caution. This time it took a team out of the race, and it's bullshit. Right or wrong, people drop a lot of time and energy in this series. To compete, and to have fun. Now, we've lost at least one teamate, because, rightfully-so, he's not going to drop hours of his weekend, and time from his family, because some kids are too immature to handle this.

This series is built upon the basis of simulating real endurance racing under the LFS framework. Look at this not as a sim, but as a real incident. Several races in a row have had huge shammozles under SC, now it has claimed its first DNF.

Now is the time, I implore the admin staff, to take a long look at the behavior under the safety car and to take strong action both in rules and judgement. The current rules in combination with the maturity of some of the current drives Does Not Work.

A team was retired from the race because of 'drivers' unable to decently space themselves under caution. Imagine it was your team, and after a month of preperation, your day was done.

The Issues of drivers not behaving under the SC is a Daunting problem. After seeing the series evolve to this point, I am confident that a true resolution will be formed and implemeted moving forwards. Let's work together to make this right.

Thanks to all for racing,
|||Stu
S3Racing

[rcpilot]

Well it for damn sure should NOT be the 30 car. What the hell is wrong with you guys telling the (MY) driver to spectate rather than rejoin. I mean GODDAMN that's some Shit there buddy.

We're screwed out of two weeks work cause of that crap. The hell with this stuff. I'm DONE with it. The 30 car will have a new team manager cause I'm freaking done.
Think I'm happy about losing 7/8 minutes due to lapped traffic bumping me off the road and they get a stop & go? Relative slap on the wrist. But, rules are rules. Hell, they even finished in front of us and essentially robbed of us a hard fought podium, just grinds salt into the wound.

[srdsprinter]

Think I'm happy about losing 7/8 minutes due to lapped traffic bumping me off the road and they get a stop & go? Relative slap on the wrist. But, rules are rules. Hell, they even finished in front of us and essentially robbed of us a hard fought podium, just grinds salt into the wound.
1) You got to continue.

2) Your incident was under Green Flag Racing, not the safety of the Safety Car

3) Those responsible for the crash aren't being dealt with, at least there was some retribution for your incident.

4) There are "rules" in place about what will happen to drivers who are too immature to drive safely under caution, but untill they are sat out for a race or two, justice is not served.

[Kirill.D]

First of all, i want to appologyze in front of IGTC organizers and drivers.

c4Racing's performance was poor, we didn't have time at all to practice and went racing with 0% of practice. We should've skip the race, we didn't and i respect the discsision the administrators did.

Also sorry in front of racers who's race was interrupted cause of me.

[Scott_Michaels]

I think its pretty appauling that I was given a DT for trying to clear up a very poor admin command under caution while the dozens of people reversing onto the track in the middle of traffic go unpunished. That rule definatley needs to be enforced a lot harder for next race.

[Rudy van Buren]

On lap 179 (leaders lap), the leader bumped the 02 off the track going into turn 1. The 02 was gaining rapidly on the 14th place car, and the 19 had over a lap advantage on the field.

It's understood it was a simple mistake, not malicious, but please do take care to leave room, especially when the lapped car is completely yielding the position.

-------------------------------


Thanks to all for racing,
|||Stu
S3Racing

After the race i did say sry for it ;) i didnt expect him to get on my left side while i was braking early.

Again sry for it.

[[GR]Evolution]

Agree here, the severity of the pentalty could have been increased about 10 fold, and still been too little.

Fortunately for you guys though, the incident did not in fact cost you the race.

------------------------
Cars weaving and speeding through the first SC period did in fact cost team #30 the race, as they got the shaft end of the stick when a wreck occured.

Driving like idiots under caution is plaguing this series, if you can't drive in proximity to others without crashing, get the hell off the track.

Well, in fact the incident was the beginning of the end as staying at the end of the grid has many more troubles than 6th place. A lot of bad driving to avoid and if you are lucky, you live. I wasn't lucky as I hit a kind of roadblock of cars (together with some crazy lag) resulting in my car rolling 2 times upside down and landing with totaled suspension. That was it...Blue flags for the rest of the race etc..

Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is that after watching the replay of the incident involving #30 under SC period, guess who started the problem. Same car that sent me out of the race before it had started... #16 car commits very dangerous driving, and the admins/marshals should be aware of this. That's what I had to say. I hope for a better and safer race next round.

Take care

[DeadWolfBones]

I think its pretty appauling that I was given a DT for trying to clear up a very poor admin command under caution while the dozens of people reversing onto the track in the middle of traffic go unpunished. That rule definatley needs to be enforced a lot harder for next race.

The chat DT was unfortunate. We could have been clearer about "the leader," but ultimately decided that this didn't outweigh the fact that teams are responsible for knowing who the leader is, since they have three or more avenues for finding out (though your uncertainty is understandable as one, the tracker, was inaccurate at that time).

As for drivers reversing into traffic... we enforce the rules on every incident we catch. If we don't catch them, we rely on teams to file protests. There was an incredible amount of action going on out there.

[niall09]

I think that people were way too careless going through the first chicane. There were tires all over the place. All of my teammates got hit by tires causing them to spin, while I recieved a collapsed suspension for hitting one, causing me to lose a podium position :shrug: Seriously, people just ploughed through them on a consistent basis.

[Gil07]

I think that people were way too careless going through the first chicane. There were tires all over the place. All of my teammates got hit by tires causing them to spin, while I recieved a collapsed suspension for hitting one, causing me to lose a podium position :shrug: Seriously, people just ploughed through them on a consistent basis.

Yes, we had exactly the same problem :( Hit a tyre in the middle of the track and ruined a damper, losing us a lot of time in the pits :(

[pearcy_2k7]

Can't belive you guys are bitching about these things :D God help you all if you would have drove the #32 car!

[niall09]

Well I think some people can bitch, if it lost them alot of places :shrug:

All in all though, it was a fun race and a special thanks to the admins and racers! :thumbsup:

[Bessa74]

Yeah, was realy a problem those "moving" tyres in 1st chicane, but i think we all have that same problem, not just 2 or 3 teams:shrug:
We have to many problems during the race, some off them because off some insane:x drivers, but thats race insues:), for exemple in 1st chicane, some driver get out off track and when he tryed to came in again, he simply dont care whit others, the result was a very damaged suspension and a pit stop:schwitz:.
A big thx to all racers for the fun race and administrators for the great work along those 4 intense hours:thumbsup:

[srdsprinter]

Yeah, was realy a problem those "moving" tyres in 1st chicane, but i think we all have that same problem, not just 2 or 3 teams:shrug:
We have to many problems during the race, some off them because off some insane:x drivers, but thats race insues:), for exemple in 1st chicane, some driver get out off track and when he tryed to came in again, he simply dont care whit others, the result was a very damaged suspension and a pit stop:schwitz:.
A big thx to all racers for the fun race and administrators for the great work along those 4 intense hours:thumbsup:
Really you ought to file a report about that. Wrecklessly endangering others is stupid, and that behaivor needs to be rooted out of the IGTC.

[DeadWolfBones]

Really you ought to file a report about that. Wrecklessly endangering others is stupid, and that behaivor needs to be rooted out of the IGTC.

That team was one of the two teams who were parked during the race.

The team's future in the series is very much in doubt.

Keep an ear out for announcements regarding this over the next week.

[The Moose]

Intense race. Slightly confusing for us due too two disconnects and the tracker problems. I wasn't really sure what was going on position wise.
I just decided to overtake whoever i could if i was clearly faster and try and let anyone through who caught me.
I hope i didn't interfere with anyone's race. Sincere apologies if i did.

Qual was very poor. I'm just not a good qualifier for some reason. I don't get nervous, i was feeling calm, but i just can find the extra 0.5+ second i know i have.

The first 10 mins was a disaster. I made up a couple of positions at the start , only to have to slam on the brakes for someone who got it all wrong in front of me. That cost me about 7 positions. Then not long after i got hit by the SR car knocking me off the track loosing me a few more positions. Then my computer had a huge stuttery moment for several seconds. fps dropped to 1 and i just drove into the barriers, wrecking my suspension and losing more positions :P

Managed to fight my way up from P 20 something up to 7th. The first SC period was perfectly timed for us and we got in , changed driver and got out without loosing any positions.
Bean0 unfortunately discoed within 5-10 mins of his stint, he decided to rejoin but discoed again :( I jumped back in to complete that hour then Reintjan stepped in at the last minute to do a stint(thanks mate, good job!) before leaving me the final stint when i really found some pace.

The tire bumping at the chicane was ridiculous. 4 times I hit loose tires, 1 time was almost a race ender.

Over all it was a fun if frustrating experience. Not having a lot of luck so far this season, but i for one am enjoying it a lot still :)

Thanks again to the Admins for a job well done.

[R.Kolz]

Think I'm happy about losing 7/8 minutes due to lapped traffic bumping me off the road and they get a stop & go? Relative slap on the wrist. But, rules are rules. Hell, they even finished in front of us and essentially robbed of us a hard fought podium, just grinds salt into the wound.

First of all I´m very sorry about what happened to car #30. That´s so sad.
Getting wrecked under a SC. Race over. For cases like this one, I´d like to see the admins adding a rule that they at all times can overrule an existing rules.
After a lot of preparation no team deserves to see its race finished like #30. I really feel with #30 here and even it´s so difficult to react fast for the admins I hope that incidents like yesterday will result in a rejoin. I´m sure the reality people are not font of this idea but it´s my personal oppinion.

All in all, races become better and better and are on a high standart - credit to the admins of the IGTC.

Team CORE:
I really admire your fight yesterday recovering from a almost last position to a 4th at the end.
I´m very sorry about this racing incident and admit I didn´t even know who you was in this situation. I saw a car go wide at the "off brigde turn" and expected it to back off because of the speed difference between you and me and your beeing off the racing line.
Unfortunately, this didn´t happen and we made contact with major consequenses for your team.
Still, having watched the replay I do not think this was all alone my fault and I don´t see this incident as a re-passing of a lapped car but overtaking a car which went wide in a turn.
We got a SG for this what I judge a racing incident and actually performed 2 SG´s as my teammate never had received a SG before and didn´t know that he had to wait for 10 secs. in his pitbox.

But of course I´m not proud of this situation now and hope you understand my thinking a little.

I´ve been thinking about what if all the teams had their teamnames and number on their numberplates. It def. would it make easier to identify a car if you usually race without names on top of the cars.

Once more:I´m sorry about the outcome and I´m impressed by your recovering from a 9 mins. lap and still finish in the tops.:thumbsup: Respect.

[rcpilot]

Team CORE:
I really admire your fight yesterday recovering from a almost last position to a 4th at the end.
I´m very sorry about this racing incident and admit I didn´t even know who you was in this situation. I saw a car go wide at the "off brigde turn" and expected it to back off because of the speed difference between you and me and your beeing off the racing line.
Unfortunately, this didn´t happen and we made contact with major consequenses for your team.
Still, having watched the replay I do not think this was all alone my fault and I don´t see this incident as a re-passing of a lapped car but overtaking a car which went wide in a turn.
We got a SG for this what I judge a racing incident and actually performed 2 SG´s as my teammate never had received a SG before and didn´t know that he had to wait for 10 secs. in his pitbox.

But of course I´m not proud of this situation now and hope you understand my thinking a little.

I´ve been thinking about what if all the teams had their teamnames and number on their numberplates. It def. would it make easier to identify a car if you usually race without names on top of the cars.

Once more:I´m sorry about the outcome and I´m impressed by your recovering from a 9 mins. lap and still finish in the tops.:thumbsup: Respect.

While I understand the situation you were in, I would've never missed that braking point had you not come jaunting out on the road in front of me and then swerved in front of me. Really distracted me along with accidentally then clipping the inside of the corner finding my way through the situation. Plus:

4.1) The “racing surface” is defined as all areas that are asphalt, concrete (including green sections), or curbing. Raised, perpendicular “speed bump” curbing is not included.

I understood I was still on the racing surface and I thought there was no way that the person who had almost taken me out earlier illegally regaining the track was going to come through the corner full bore with no respect to me. Plus your immediate response was that you couldn't see me which is just plain untrue, you had sight lines on me right up to the point of contact.

If you want to blame closing speeds can I just start bumping lapped traffic out of the way now? They're usually pretty slow. :-' I usually have to jump off the course to dodge an incident that would've been all my fault with lapped traffic a couple times a race, it sucks but you deal with it. All in all, what's done is done and I just want to move on. But, I see no blame on myself here.

[BigTime]

I´ve been thinking about what if all the teams had their teamnames and number on their numberplates. It def. would it make easier to identify a car if you usually race without names on top of the cars.

Typically once I catch my first lapped car, or get caught by one, I turn on "names over cars" in LFS. I personally wouldn't mind having the numbers on the plates but I would rather it be blank or say CoRe on it. :D

[Scott_Michaels]

The chat DT was unfortunate. We could have been clearer about "the leader," but ultimately decided that this didn't outweigh the fact that teams are responsible for knowing who the leader is, since they have three or more avenues for finding out (though your uncertainty is understandable as one, the tracker, was inaccurate at that time).

As for drivers reversing into traffic... we enforce the rules on every incident we catch. If we don't catch them, we rely on teams to file protests. There was an incredible amount of action going on out there.
I had absolutley no avenue to find that out (my team mate wasn't available at the time), and there wasn't anything I could do about it anyway because none of the cars infront knew what was going on either. I think it was a poor decision but its your choice so I took the drive through.
I don't see a single penalty for cars dangerously re-entering (during the race), which means that almost all the time you will miss it, and therefore people are more likely to take advantage of that, which is clearly what's happening now. When you've got people reversing onto the track into traffic and reversing down the track on the racing line after a spin, clearly they aren't taking the rule seriously.
As for the tyre stacks, I had a big accident with them when the car infront cut the chicane and I flipped about 6 times after hitting one of the tyre stacks they pulled onto the track, lost me probably 2 laps. Unfortunatley this is a product of the LFS designers insisting on putting those irritating chicanes everywhere, and there isn't much the admins themselves can do about it without getting really harsh with cutting penalties, so I guess thats just one of those things. Although if a car repeatedly runs straight through tyre stacks they should probably be penalised.

[R.Kolz]

While I understand the situation you were in, I would've never missed that braking point had you not come jaunting out on the road in front of me and then swerved in front of me. Really distracted me along with accidentally then clipping the inside of the corner finding my way through the situation.... (clip)
...I understood I was still on the racing surface and I thought there was no way that the person who had almost taken me out earlier illegally regaining the track was going to come through the corner full bore with no respect to me. Plus your immediate response was that you couldn't see me which is just plain untrue, you had sight lines on me right up to the point of contact...( clip )

I really understand your frustration but after your statements I need to straighten something out here:
1.Nobody " illegally regained the race track".
See see movie for the first time. I´s in deep trouble, true, but got back on the track with nobody at all behind me. The blue flag I get after I for about 5 seconds had been on track again.
2.That you miss your braking point after the bridge with me far behind has absolutely nothing to do with me.
3. Nobody swerved in front of you at no time. I actually gave you the ideal inner line and eased the throttle the turn before the bridge.Check it on the movie.
4. You claim I had sight lines up to the point of contact. Not true. See the movie from my view.

This was IMO a racing accident and we even served a penalty for it. That this accident had such a huge impact on your team yesterday - once more: I´m very sorry about it !!!

Here´s your situation.

Youtube:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kSonAytEK0k

[DeadWolfBones]

Rudy, the jump-cut in that video makes it kind of worthless as a tool in judging the situation. You're clearly on the grass and getting sideways as you make the turn onto the bridge, then it jumps to halfway down the bridge straight.

The look-to-apex function you're using does explain how you wouldn't have seen him there. On the other hand, I wouldn't have charged in there at full speed assuming he wouldn't be there.

[R.Kolz]

Rudy, the jump-cut in that video makes it kind of worthless as a tool in judging the situation. You're clearly on the grass and getting sideways as you make the turn onto the bridge, then it jumps to halfway down the bridge straight.

The look-to-apex function you're using does explain how you wouldn't have seen him there. On the other hand, I wouldn't have charged in there at full speed assuming he wouldn't be there.

Thanks for your comment. :)

No, even I just told you in a PM, I´m not going to do a new fraps movie. I´m poor at it as you can see. If people care they can watch the replay. I can assure you that nothing happend in this cut scene just your teammate getting away from me. If I touched the grass there.. well, just see how much room I gave him.. :scratchch
I didn´t spin there or anything else happened.

I hate it to tell my tricks here but actually that´s exactely how I race. I use a lot of the look-to-apex function. I didn´t charge in there full speed and could just turn it arround: He could have waited until me on the racing line would have passed this turn.

I´m not saying I´m free of any guilt here and both miscalculated eachother in this very situation.

[BigTime]

3. Nobody swerved in front of you at no time. I actually gave you the ideal inner line and eased the throttle the turn before the bridge.Check it on the movie.
4. You claim I had sight lines up to the point of contact. Not true. See the movie from my view.

Here´s your situation.

Youtube:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kSonAytEK0k

Your movie shows the that you easily saw our car... Just because you have look-to-apex turned on doesn't mean you should forget or ignore what you saw right in front of you... You didn't lift when you saw us on the right hand side of the track and nor should you be using that much look-to-apex.

[R.Kolz]

Your movie shows the that you easily saw our car... Just because you have look-to-apex turned on doesn't mean you should forget or ignore what you saw right in front of you... You didn't lift when you saw us on the right hand side of the track and nor should you be using that much look-to-apex.

I´m very sorry about it and prob. not free of any guilt here still -BOTH miscalculated eachother in this very situation because he´s the one clearly off the racing line - not me. I have tried to explain it as good as I could in my previous three posts and that´s all I can do now. EOD.
Please accept my apology.

[DeadWolfBones]

I'd appreciate it if we could put this issue to rest now. I think both sides have had their say.

[BigTime]

Ahh, I'm just a little frustrated I guess. I can see that we both played a part in the incident... Thank you for the apology. :)

[rcpilot]

I really understand your frustration but after your statements I need to straighten something out here:
1.Nobody " illegally regained the race track".
See see movie for the first time. I´s in deep trouble, true, but got back on the track with nobody at all behind me. The blue flag I get after I for about 5 seconds had been on track again.
2.That you miss your braking point after the bridge with me far behind has absolutely nothing to do with me.
3. Nobody swerved in front of you at no time. I actually gave you the ideal inner line and eased the throttle the turn before the bridge.Check it on the movie.
4. You claim I had sight lines up to the point of contact. Not true. See the movie from my view.

This was IMO a racing accident and we even served a penalty for it. That this accident had such a huge impact on your team yesterday - once more: I´m very sorry about it !!!

Here´s your situation.

Youtube:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kSonAytEK0k
I'm sorry BigTime/DWB, but you weren't involved in the incident and I can't let these almost libelous statements stand.

Let me straighten some things out:

1. You were going 80-90 mph in a 125 mph corner, all I really need to say about that.

2. No, it didn't cause it, but I'm not normally flustered and pissed off when I get to that spot.

3. You were solidly on the inner line, I went for the outer line. You then proceeded to jump to the outer line. You changed lines with a potential closing speed of 40 mph, which is just daft. Besides, the outer line was optimal for the faster moving car.

4. So you run a setting that doesn't allow you to see someone when they're still well ahead of you but off to one side? Not my problem you didn't look but that already sounds rather dangerous.

I state again:

4.1) The “racing surface” is defined as all areas that are asphalt, concrete (including green sections), or curbing. Raised, perpendicular “speed bump” curbing is not included.

I had every right to my bit of track, yet you still hit me. What your conclusions come down to if this is a racing incident are, 'I can hit someone as long as they miss their apex, are a little off the pace, and I lose track of them knowing they could be trouble mid-corner and don't bother to look.' Huh? I could literally smack about half of the lapped traffic I come by off the road under that reasoning.

Cut up replay attached below. Viewing the youtube file at a choppy half speed without seeing it at normal speed first gives you 0 feel for the timing and speed of the incident.

[R.Kolz]

Ahh, I'm just a little frustrated I guess. I can see that we both played a part in the incident... Thank you for the apology. :)

Thank you too.

[srdsprinter]

While I understand the continuance of the CoRe/TDRT incident, I think the situation was handled correctly given the circumstances. Yes, it was a bad deal, but it was handled realisticly.

The attrocious wrecking under the SC was not.

The #16 car spun a leader out on the formation lap, and recieved the specified pentalty.

Upon reviewing the replay under the SC car incident at the hour marker, the #16:
a) Spun under Caution and rejoined the field instead of joining the tail.
b) ran into the car in front of it on the back-straight. Which Should have warranted at least another SG, but nothing.
c) The ran into the car in Front of it AGAIN, this time resulting in the DNF of the #30.

With at least 4 incidents under the SC, one car proved beyond a shadow of doubt they do not have the maturity to handle the responsibilites of racing in the IGTC.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[BreadC]

and what do you think about this? your opinions on this move...

chicane after first corner.

im interested

[DeadWolfBones]

We're looking into it, Stu.

[BreadC]

While I understand the continuance of the CoRe/TDRT incident, I think the situation was handled correctly given the circumstances. Yes, it was a bad deal, but it was handled realisticly.

The attrocious wrecking under the SC was not.

The #16 car spun a leader out on the formation lap, and recieved the specified pentalty.

Upon reviewing the replay under the SC car incident at the hour marker, the #16:
a) Spun under Caution and rejoined the field instead of joining the tail.
b) ran into the car in front of it on the back-straight. Which Should have warranted at least another SG, but nothing.
c) The ran into the car in Front of it AGAIN, this time resulting in the DNF of the #30.

With at least 4 incidents under the SC, one car proved beyond a shadow of doubt they do not have the maturity to handle the responsibilites of racing in the IGTC.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

the car also hit me.. but not as bad... i saw it coming and missed the brute force but was clipped slightly i was up in top 5 at the time

[srdsprinter]

and what do you think about this? your opinions on this move...

chicane after first corner.

im interested

Will check that in about an hour (lunch).

We're looking into it, Stu.
Thanks, it is good to hear that coming from the admins.

the car also hit me.. but not as bad... i saw it coming and missed the brute force but was clipped slightly i was up in top 5 at the time
I can understand, and usually am very tolerant of racing incidents. However, the standard of driving under SC has now cost us competitors again, which is really sad.

[rcpilot]

Will check that in about an hour (lunch).


Thanks, it is good to hear that coming from the admins.


I can understand, and usually am very tolerant of racing incidents. However, the standard of driving under SC has now cost us competitors again, which is really sad.
Safety car behavior in general is a hot topic right now besides this discussion. People are just being way too aggressive and in many cases completely ignoring the rules. AKA you're not the only person dealing with a bit of idiocy under the safety car and the admins are aware of it and attempting to figure something out from what I've overheard/discussed.

[srdsprinter]

Safety car behavior in general is a hot topic right now besides this discussion. People are just being way too aggressive and in many cases completely ignoring the rules. AKA you're not the only person dealing with a bit of idiocy under the safety car and the admins are aware of it and attempting to figure something out from what I've overheard/discussed.
Thanks for that. Just FYI, the only bit of under SC idiocy my car dealt with was being spun off under SC, which was handled effectively/correctly.

The fact is that a team's race was ended while under the SC, and thus far there has been mininal stink publicly made about it (I feel if it were any other team, we'd be forming a mob. The #30 team is a group of good guys, not the fastest but they love the racing). Just looking at what happened through the #30 team's eyes is enough to turn one off the IGTC for good. That's without the farce that happend to AR.

It's good to know there is a discussion going on, we just weren't aware of it.


Thanks,
Stu

[DeadWolfBones]

I've just re-watched the entire first 2.5hr of the race, and in the process I re-watched the incident that took out the #30 (for the 4th or 5th time). This time I did a shift-U and placed the camera looking toward the bridge overpass, just behind the cars that got in trouble. I watched the replay at .25x speed and looked to see when the brake lights came on for each car involved.

What I saw was this:

The #29 car, far ahead of the cars involved, was lagging back a bit from the car in front of him. This, in concert with the slower corner ahead, caused the cars behind him to bunch up. The last of the cars in this bunch was the #26. Behind the #26, the #16 had a bit of a gap and was on the gas trying to close it up in preparation for the green flag. The #26 was going very slowly by the time the accordion effect took full effect. The #16 got on the brakes pretty early, but was unable to slow enough and hit the rear of the #26, sending them both spinning, and blocking most of the track.

The #30 got on the brakes as well, but a little too late, and hit the #16. There was a brief spike of lag involved in the contact, which erased the #30's forward momentum and brought it to a dead stop, broadside to the track. At this point, the #13 and #03 cars came into the picture, already on their brakes, and again were unable to slow before making contact. The #13 hit the #30 broadside and once again lag seems to have been involved, as the #30 just took off and flew down the track and onto its side behind the barrier.

The actual cause of the incident was the #29's slowing at the middle of the field, and the resulting accordion slowdown behind him. The secondary cause is the timing of the #16's attempt to catch up to the #26, and the reaction time involved in slowing when he saw the #26 and cars ahead of it had slowed.

I hope you can see where it's difficult to see who to blame, and even more difficult to penalize.

Rest assured that we are working on new SC procedures to try to avoid these incidents.

[srdsprinter]

I can't believe it's really that difficult DWB, I just watched it again as well BTW.

The 16 had been involved in incidents under the SC all day. Within 5 seconds of the start it was clear they shouldn't have been there as 16 took out AR.

On the very lap of the incident, the 16 spun and rejoined without yielding or DT. He then proceeded to hit the 26 TWICE in the rear.

The last incident occured just at the 3rd sector, nowhere near the restart of the race.

These actions are a clear pattern. It wasn't an accident, it wasn't happenstance, it was habitual wreckless driving under the SC. Now we've lost a teamate because of someone who doesn't belong on the track, and you're not going to do anything about it.

Granted other things contributed to the 30's DNF, but it is obvious that the 16 was nowhere near responsible enough to be on the track with others, not even close. To pretend anything otherwise is purely nonsensical and insulting.

[DeadWolfBones]

I like how you conveniently bolded the insulting parts for me, thanks.

As I stated, I watched the #30 incident itself, not any of the contextual stuff, as that wasn't my purpose in re-watching the replay in the first place (this time).

You seem to be out for blood, rather than out for justice in this particular case, but that's understandable. It was a very tough break for the #30.

We are looking into the behavior of several cars during this race, including the #16. Formal warnings and/or points penalties are possible, but they will be judged by the admins and mashals, not by self-appointed justices.

Thanks.

[srdsprinter]

I'm sorry if you think I've got it out for you or the 16. I respect what you do immensly.
Edit -> BTW, you did say you watched the first 2.5 hours...

But to ignore a clear pattern of wreckless immaturity is just wrong.

I want to move forward, but with this behaivor out there it's hard to. It wasn't a failure of the rules, it was a failure of one individual on many occassions.

I'm very sorry, and I don't want it to be attacking towards yourself or the rest of the IGTC staff. But to make excuses for what happend out there is just beyond me.

You've made it clear that you're pursuing the action necessary to prevent this in the future, and with that, I'll leave it. I just hope you know it wasn't any deficiency on you or the rules that let us down Saturday.

Thanks,
Stu

[Lotesdelere]

Yeah, was realy a problem those "moving" tyres in 1st chicane, but i think we all have that same problem, not just 2 or 3 teams:shrug:
I don't think so.
I think tyres don't move by their own you know... I think it's not a tyres problem but a drivers problem. Some drivers repeatidly hit the tyres, lap after lap, simply ignoring that there are other cars on track, simply ignoring that there are tyres there for some reason.

It was reported to the marshalls on IRC, but no action was taken.


However, the standard of driving under SC has now cost us competitors again, which is really sad.
Safety car behavior in general is a hot topic right now besides this discussion. People are just being way too aggressive and in many cases completely ignoring the rules.
And again there were a lot of cars ignoring the rules while under SC, swerving and accelerating / braking.
And again, it was reported to the marshalls on IRC, but no action was taken...


Not to mention the behaviour of some individual drivers who seems to think that they are alone on the track and that they are allowed to do anything including attempts of ramming and blocking while they were several laps down.
And yes, it was reported to the marshalls on IRC, but no action was taken........

I don't want to blame the marshalls there, I know it's not easy to admin such a race and they had troubles with the tracker.
But maybe more marshalls are needed for looking at the whole field and not only to keep the focus on the five leading cars.

And I do believe that idiotic and dangerous behaviour MUST be severely punished otherwise it's going to be worse and worse race after race.

[BigTime]

I don't think so.
I think tyres don't move by their own you know... I think it's not a tyres problem but a drivers problem. Some drivers repeatidly hit the tyres, lap after lap, simply ignoring that there are other cars on track, simply ignoring that there are tyres there for some reason.

It was reported to the marshalls on IRC, but no action was taken.


Well what can you do... The only way you could penalize a car for such an incident is if a tire he pushed on the track caused an accident. I personally saw no problem with that in these GTR's. I hit many an on track tire and it was a almost unnoticeable impact. If we where however running TBO's, I would be much more concerned. It's something to keep in mind for the future, but not many issues in the GTR's... At least for me...

[DeadWolfBones]

Well what can you do... The only way you could penalize a car for such an incident is if a tire he pushed on the track caused an accident. I personally saw no problem with it in these GTR's. I hit many an on track tire and it was an unnoticeable impact...

The problem is that the effect they have is unpredictable. 80% of the time they may make no impact on your progress, and the other 20% might send you into the wall or into space.

You're wrong in a theoretical sense re: can't penalize for just touching the tires, but in practice every car in the race would have been penalized multiple times. I seriously doubt there's a car who avoided them for the entire race.

[srdsprinter]

The problem is that the effect they have is unpredictable. 80% of the time they may make no impact on your progress, and the other 20% might send you into the wall or into space.

You're wrong in a theoretical sense re: can't penalize for just touching the tires, but in practice every car in the race would have been penalized multiple times. I seriously doubt there's a car who avoided them for the entire race.
To be thoroughly controversial on my own aside: I believe the dangers/randomness of the errant tires was good for the simulation, in that:

-real life has changing random conditions, such as debris, dirt, oil and so on. Success at real endurance racing is achieving the balance in going very fast, while leaving just enough cushion for the unexpected. Even if our dynamic track conditions are limited to wandering tire walls, I believe it's healthy to deal with them.

The marshalls were kind of screwed either way with this. Last year, they did a great job creating barricades that kept the tires in, but many drivers didn't adapt to them and got caught out. This year, they left the tires alone, and people still weren't happy.

[BreadC]

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=783048#post783048

and this? i love to hear explanation from this driver lol

[srdsprinter]

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=783048#post783048

and this? i love to hear explanation from this driver lol
That was interesting. Probably was situational unawareness or a temporary lapse in judgement. That spot is not one of the more obvious passing zones, but it was pretty clear you were there. Lucky you both got through there without spinning.

Edit - The leader did sort of the same thing to me under braking for T1. Shoved us off the track. No real damage, but our race for 15th was over (10 mins left). Just lost his situational awareness for a second and we were off the track. No grudges held, but it's definately something to work on.

[SamH]

It's really a racing incident in the IGTC, I think. I had a similar situation, but immediately before the chicane. Another driver ran me completely off the track on approach, completely disregarding my presence on the track. I finished up straight up the banking. Just take it on the nose.

[BreadC]

he knew i was there allrite he was allrdy straightened up and from the steering lock u can see he sharped turned there... but oh well.. we finished 3rd