Key to a good line start?

[SuperSmitt]

I recently got the full version of S2, but have been lurking awhile and only posted a few times. I think I am about an average driver, but one thing that kills me is my start off the line. I have some pretty good setups that I have either downloaded through links on this website, or gotten from players in game. Mainly, I drive the GTR on BP course (yes, even with the full version I enjoy driving the basic FWD cars). It seems no matter what I do, everyone else gets a better start than I. Hold the gas down and the car wheels spin at the line, try to find a middle ground and I tend to underrev. For RWD, I imagine you have to be gentle on the start to stay in control? Is my thought process right here, or am I way off and missing something in getting a good start off the line?

[sinbad]

In LFS wheelspin is the fastest way to launch. It's much quicker to spin the wheels a bit, than it is to risk bogging down the engine. The 4wd cars take some brutal revving to get off the line quickly, but then so do the low powered 2wd cars.

Turn off auto-cut on upshift too.

[Sp3cTr3]

seems to me like you get a better start spinning the wheels. The car is hard to control yes, and when it looks like its going to act funny, then let off the gas a little.

with some practice you will make som good starts :thumb:

[Tick]

I tac up to about 11 grand FZR at start then drop to about 5 and feather the throttle back on. I get great starts

[Madman_CZ]

well i personally think it depends a lot on the gearing setup of you car... but this is what i tend to do at the start...

when the two sets of lights go red i floor the pedal completely and wait for the green lights to light up.... the full revs never damage my engine as i always get the timing just right and the starts i make are always good..

only on the odd occasion do i forget about the lights when i am looking backwards at the grid lol so i end up being last by turn 1 hehehe!!!!


mad

best way to practise starts is to practise starts :scratchch

[SparkyDave]

similar to Madman above I watch the lights and increase gas to about 70% then as lights hit green and as clutch disengages leadfoot it for a few seconds usually (unless in UF1 ;)) this produces some wheelspin but as momentum increases I tend to let off a little , hopefully when the revs are high enough to not bog down the engine and to gain a little extra traction as some grip is restored to driving wheels . this works better in FWD cars and I mostly seem to get good starts.

SD.

[SuperSmitt]

I just realized I posted this in general when I meant for it to be in beginners. Thanks for the responses though. I figured it was just in the timing and that I was doing something wrong, but I think I have alot to learn as just about everyone has a better start off the line than me :( . Another question... any idea how to control the Formula V8 off the line? lol Add just the slightest throttle and that car spins like a top.

[tristancliffe]

The sensible thing to do would be not just not drive the FO8 until you are capable and reasonably able in the slower cars.

Of course, very few beginners do this - the attraction of the 'fastest' car is too great, regardless of their ability (or, usually, lack of).

So, learn throttle control, make 1st and 2nd gears taller (or shift to 2nd/3rd as soon as the lights change), and try adjusting the diff so you have a good balance between starts and 'normal' driving.

[Madman_CZ]

to get the v8 of the line succesfully is a challenge....if you are a bigginer then id recommend sticking to the slower cars untill you get the feel and timing right for the starts.

Because the v8 has so much power the rear wheels will always spin if one is not carefull. The way i start with the v8 is to keep the revs about middle.... when the lights go green i tend to do a short stab at the throttle to get some more power which gives me a bit of wheel spin but then i immediately decrease the accelerator power so the rear wheels regain traction and then apply throttle smoothly untill pedal is fully down.. also some correction with the wheel is needed if car becomes unstable with too much wheelspin..

it does require some practise though. I have spend a few hours doing drag racing with the v8 just so i can get use to the starts.

it requires a good control over the foot.... and it helps a lot if u have descent pedals... mine are just too light so its even harder to know how far i have pressed the pedal!!...

mad

damn.... tristan!!! u beat me to it :P

[Jakg]

what is throttle cut on up-shift?

[Madman_CZ]

it cuts the throttle when shifting up.... it stops you from damaging your engine by over reving when you shift up....

normally you would have a clutch pedal so when you shift you would let off the throttle pedal press the clutch pedal and shift then apply throttle again... this way you avoid over reving your engine and damaging it....

its good to use cut throttle on upshift in long races...
mad

[ajp71]

Something is very very wrong with the FO8 IMO, yes it is a big single seater without traction control but at low speeds it is just stupid, it's not hard to control when you know what it's gong to do but it's still not like the real thing should be.

[mrodgers]

its good to use cut throttle on upshift in long races...
mad
Is much better to turn the auto throttle cut off and lift the throttle yourself. I lift in all cars but the big GTR's and the FOX. I don't run the F08 because after 15,000+ miles in S2, I still can't keep it from spinning out on the throttle (there, kept on topic :schwitz: ).

[AndroidXP]

When driving short races in turbo cars, try to hit the rev limiter as soon as the second red light is lit up. If you drive RB4 or FXR, directly rev up as soon as you are on the grid. When hitting the limiter you will slowly spool up turbo pressure which will greatly affect your start speed.

This is, AFAIK, the only way to actually launch faster than the FZR... the only other way may be a ridiculously short first but that isn't exaclty great when you shift into 2nd.

[Sp3cTr3]

In turbo cars you can get ekstra power if you can spool up the turbo before the green light.

[spankmeyer]

In turbo cars you can get ekstra power if you can spool up the turbo before the green light.

Unfortunately that's impossible at the moment in LFS.

[tristancliffe]

No it isn't - in the turbo cars floor it as soon as the countdown begins. Watch the boost gauge, and it'll build up and up to a nice maximum when the lights turn green.

Makes a BIG different to starts.

[Messiah]

I turned on the virtual lights because sometimes you'll start where you can't see the real lights and I start counting in my head. 3 seconds from the first red lights, on zero it goes to green like: Red, Red, Red, Green!

I never floor the pedal because the engine still makes popcorn sound when revving it to the max. I found out starting with wheelspin in the XRR is much better than without, since I don't have a clutch pedal to further optimize a start off the line. Though you are right, it needs some concentration to not spin around in the middle of the field =)

For FWD cars I do like most people over here and trying to reduce wheel spin as much as possible and I rather keep some wheel spin than underrev.

[Hyperactive]

Can someone verify this: In the FZR when the lights go green I usually try to have little wheelspin for couple of seconds and then I lift the throttle just a little and almost instantly after this floor it. The rears stop spining when I do that little lift and then I can accelerate with full grip/full throttle.

So little wheelspin in the start to make wheels spin but not much. Then back to the "tracktion zone" :)

[Madman_CZ]

I never floor the pedal because the engine still makes popcorn sound when revving it to the max.

hmm popcorn :)

i tend to floor it just before lights go green, engine can last few moments at max revs. I have never had it pop after a start doing it my way...

what use to kill it is upshifting.. untill i found the cut throttle on up shift :D

mad

[sturje]

The key to a good start with the F08 is burning out, unless you've got very good clutch control. If you can control the burnout on a FO8 you can get away really quick, for example on oval, when i burnout i can get a time of 19.54 as the start, pretty much with the opposition far behind and barely seeable in the mirrors.

What i do is burnout till i hit about 40-45mph, usually at this point my rear tires have hit the optimum temperature, let off the gas to stop the wheel spin. Then put my foot down again. Same technique seems to work well with the FOX too, not sure about other cars.

[AJS]

You need to be optimistic

Bad start = surviving T1 ! :tilt:

[vellanet]

Another thing to keep an eye on in the F08 is the speed, once you hit about 110kph you can floor the throttle because the aerodynamic downforce is now strong enough to keep the back wheels form spinning.

[NO_1]

Ok

[spankmeyer]

Ok

Nice first post! :thumb:

I take my word back that it's impossible to get good turbo boost before green light as I've never been so sadistic with my poor XRR and keep the engine screaming at rev limiter waiting for go. Apologies for misinformation!

[AndroidXP]

Yeah, the screaming hurts me inside too, but alas, the rev limiter does its job and prevents any noticeable damage to the engine.

[Ardent]

Can someone verify this: In the FZR when the lights go green I usually try to have little wheelspin for couple of seconds and then I lift the throttle just a little and almost instantly after this floor it. The rears stop spining when I do that little lift and then I can accelerate with full grip/full throttle.

So little wheelspin in the start to make wheels spin but not much. Then back to the "tracktion zone" :)

In the fzr you don't need to lift the throttle during start, just correct a bit with the wheel if the car starts to spin.
You also will have your rear tyres almost perfectly warmed up for t1.

[ayrton senna 87]

its not best to spin the wheels, its best to keep them just in the grip and 'feel' the grip like traction control does.

Martin brundle did a test of all the different types of start in an F1 car, he tested huge wheelspins, and the 'traction control' type controlled start and one called 'the granny'

the fastest was the controled start, then the granny, then the wheelspin.

[axus]

F1 is a different story - there you are dealing with 900hp compared to 450 at worst in the FO8 (I know the GTR's have more, but they also have more weight). And LFS tyre physics are not entirely realistic at low speed. However, I will agree with you - balancing it on the gas until you can safely put your foot right to the floor is best. Still, some wheelspin is necessary to get off the line quickest.

[Hyperactive]

Probably people spin the wheels at start (a little) so that the engine won't bog down. And it is essential to make a full throttle start in the turbos because otherwise the starts sooo sloowly :) In FXR this is only way to have a good start. And the XRR needs this too. FZR in the other hand accelerates pretty well on lower rpms.

Of course in reality the "no spin at all" would be the fastest but this needs at least better clutch.

[deggis]

Sometimes after a crash start people starts to spam "how someone can screw up in the start?!" but I think it's not that hard. If the car in front of you lags it always seems like it's not moving in the very beginning, then you try to avoid crashing it and a car behind you crahes you... and the hullaballoo is ready. :D

I don't run the F08 because after 15,000+ miles in S2, I still can't keep it from spinning out on the throttle (there, kept on topic :schwitz: ).
After 20,000 kilometers in S2, I still find that FO8 (or FOX) couldn't be more boring to drive.

:tilt:

[geeman1]

Of course in reality the "no spin at all" would be the fastest but this needs at least better clutch.
Yes. The best start would be at just at the edge of grip. But it's almost impossible, so it's better to spin the tyres a bit.

[Vegetal]

Doing some scientific testing with the XRT on the autox, i found out that you can indeed be faster on the start using the clutch. But it's not that simple.

First i tested more or less 10 times launching on the standard LFS method, full throttle and loads of spin. I recorded the time (custom autox layout just for testing launching), and they were always the same.

Then i went to test full clutch launch. The method was using full throttle and controlling the clutch to avoid wheelspin. Surprisingly, it was slower than spinning the wheels completely, almost every time......sometimes i managed the same time of spinning.

Looking at the replays, i found out the very launching itself was pretty slow using the clutch, it looked like it didn't engage quickly enough to give the car the initial burst of speed. Then i went testing using this new knowledge. I found out the best way to launch in LFS is to spin the wheels for some 3 metres or so, quite briefly indeed, and then putting more clutch on to stop the spin, controlling the grip afterwards until you fully disengage the clutch.

I have some replays in my computer, but i won't be home until jan 18, recommend you guys test it too.

obs: i only tested it on the XRT and using the throttle lever on a microsoft joystick i have to control the clutch :thumb:

[axus]

Doing some scientific testing with the XRT on the autox, i found out that you can indeed be faster on the start using the clutch. But it's not that simple.

First i tested more or less 10 times launching on the standard LFS method, full throttle and loads of spin. I recorded the time (custom autox layout just for testing launching), and they were always the same.

Then i went to test full clutch launch. The method was using full throttle and controlling the clutch to avoid wheelspin. Surprisingly, it was slower than spinning the wheels completely, almost every time......sometimes i managed the same time of spinning.

Looking at the replays, i found out the very launching itself was pretty slow using the clutch, it looked like it didn't engage quickly enough to give the car the initial burst of speed. Then i went testing using this new knowledge. I found out the best way to launch in LFS is to spin the wheels for some 3 metres or so, quite briefly indeed, and then putting more clutch on to stop the spin, controlling the grip afterwards until you fully disengage the clutch.

I have some replays in my computer, but i won't be home until jan 18, recommend you guys test it too.

obs: i only tested it on the XRT and using the throttle lever on a microsoft joystick i have to control the clutch :thumb:

How long was your test (ie. distance and time) - just wondering because if it was a few meters, you will find that it you will have a much better speed across the checkpoint using more wheelspin. When racing for checkpoint speed in drag racing one tends to spin the wheels as much as possible. I suppose the optimum start does depend on the distance between the start and the first braking point.

[SuperSmitt]

What about for simple FWD cars like the GTI? Just floor it on the grid or wait for just before the green lights?

[mrodgers]

You need to be optimistic

Bad start = surviving T1 ! :tilt:
Very good point here. When I start in the final slot, I usually make up half the positions by the T2. If I start between mid field and last, I often have to pit.

[5th Earth]

What about for simple FWD cars like the GTI? Just floor it on the grid or wait for just before the green lights?

It depends how open you diff is. You can handle any amount of wheelspin in a FWD easily, but with an open diff it may cost you some speed. Either way, I've found that flooring it on the grid doesn't seem to damage any of the cars


On another note, why doesn't anyone ever consider making their first and second gears longer to ease starting in the F08? If you can spin the wheels easily, then the gear is shorter than it needs to be, it's that simple. At the very least, you should be able to floor it from idle in first gear and not spin out.

I don't drive the F08, but in the FOX, my first gear is 1.96*4.00. Rev to just 2-3000 or so, floor it when the light turns green, and control is a non-issue, a bit of protest and then the tires hookup nicely. Plus, since 1st is so high, my other gears are closer together.

[Kajojek(PL)]

Have your throttle in the middle and then just add some more slowly

[SuperSmitt]

Had an epiphany today. It seems my wheel wasn't completely calibrated and my throttle was only going about 92%... I reconnected the USB and now it is at a full 100%. What a difference having full throttle makes lol :D . My old best at GP with the GTI was 1:36.27. Now my best is 1:35.5. Huge improvement, especially off the line and on straightaways. Even so, these replies have been great to help optimize my start times; thanks for taking the time.

[Madman_CZ]

what wheel is it?

the Logitech Momo Racing suffers from pedals going out of calibration due to the pedal moving slightly in its socket sideways..... its a big problem and well known and only way this can be fixed is by taping aroung the pedal so that it fits into its socket firmly...

i had this problem with my momo.... now i seem to be getting the brake pedal 5% pressed even tho my foot is off :s

some weird stuff...

mad

[Moonclaw]

Optimum slip and a clutch pedal is what you need.

[SuperSmitt]

Yeah, I just got the Logitech Momo Racing wheel as a gift. I really enjoy it except for its 240 degree rotation, and now this problem which you mention. I keep hearing the Logitech Driving Force Pro is the way to go, but I am iffy about getting it since everyone I have looked lists it only for the PS2 console (I imagine when you use it for the computer, you just hook it up without software installation required?) Anyway, I don't feel like spending a good $150 for a wheel just because it rotates more. If this accelerator becomes a real problem, I may look into returning the wheel and upgrading. If I can keep the accelerator working, is it possible to buy just a newer wheel and use my current pedals?

[mrodgers]

#1 If the wheel is new, call logitech and they will send a new unit out and many here has said they didn't even ask for the old one. So then with the old unit, the following can apply and you have 2 units.

#2 I had the loose side to side throttle pedal calibration problem on mine. What happens is the pedals are continuously auto calibrating. The pedal can deflect slightly to the side causing the pot to turn a bit more than normal and the drivers calibrate to that movement. Then when the pedals are deflected normally, they won't go a full 100% because of the "over calibration" that happened when the pedal twisted to the side a bit. I had it happen and wrapped a single layer of black electrical tape around both the throttle and brake shaft. The insides of the unit is very simple and easy to take apart and put back together. I haven't had a problem with calibration because of this since the tape fix.

#3 There is a small tab on the bottom of the pots that sit in a molded groove to keep them in place. The pots can pull up out of the mounting very easily. There are suggestions on the web to glue the pot in place, but then it is not easily removed if they ever need replaced. I had the pot come loose on mine during a league race. Every time I braked, I would get up to 50% throttle because the wires of the brake pedal inside the unit would move and push on the throttle pot. Since the pot wasn't securely mounted, it would twist giving me throttle when I braked. I wedged a small folded up piece of paper in the mounting groove to take up some of the slack on mine. I saw a suggestion since I fixed mine of someone using some kind of putty or bubble gum or something pliable to hold the pot in place rather than gluing. That would hold it in, yet allow it to be easily removed if you ever need to replace the pot.

Hope that all helps someone. I haven't had a lick of trouble with my momo pedals since taking them apart and doing these fixes. The loose pot fix I did about 15 minutes before a league race, so that tells you how simple they are to take apart and put back together.

For some good graphical explainations on the Momo pedal fixes (applies to DFP pedals as well) go here http://web.axelero.hu/mozso/momo_m.html and follow the MOMO Racing Repair button at the top of the page. Really good site and some other nice annoyance fixes as well.

[Vegetal]

How long was your test (ie. distance and time) - just wondering because if it was a few meters, you will find that it you will have a much better speed across the checkpoint using more wheelspin. When racing for checkpoint speed in drag racing one tends to spin the wheels as much as possible. I suppose the optimum start does depend on the distance between the start and the first braking point.

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense to me :pillepall

The distance doesn't matter, if there is a way of launching faster, it will be faster on any given distance. By the way the layout was completed in around 5 and a half seconds.

[Jakg]

what wheel is it?

the Logitech Momo Racing suffers from pedals going out of calibration due to the pedal moving slightly in its socket sideways..... its a big problem and well known and only way this can be fixed is by taping aroung the pedal so that it fits into its socket firmly...

i had this problem with my momo.... now i seem to be getting the brake pedal 5% pressed even tho my foot is off :s

some weird stuff...

madi found that software fixed mine, although its still getting a small amount of throttle alll the time

[AndroidXP]

When you rev up to say 3000 rpm, and then let go the throttle, does it still throttle up that small amount? Or does it only come back when the revs are close to idle rpm?

Because if it's the latter one, then everything is ok with your pedals. It's LFS that presses the throttle for you, "to keep the revs up". Reason is we don't have real idle rpm, but rather kind of a minimum throttle when the rpm drop below a certain value. If you hit ingnition, then this minimum throttle is simply disabled (and your inputs too).

The engine sound is weird too when turning off the engine. If you keep the pedal pressed and turn it off, the last few strokes sound like they're under heavy load.

[tristancliffe]

Try it in a real car - press the throttle and turn it off (be careful not to damage your car doing this by overrevving or flooding - i.e. I wouldn't if you have a catalytic converter or anything :p). The real car will make a similar sort of noise.

[AndroidXP]

Oh really? I didn't think this is possible, looks like I just don't know enough about the internal workings of engines. I thought that when you turn off the ignition, there's no more explosions going on but just the cylinders moving a bit due to inertia. I didn't know filling the ...err... chambers with gas makes it sound like under heavy load.

[tristancliffe]

Well, the pistons have to compress the air they suck in even if fuel isn't being injected or sparks sparking. So if you open the throttle and allow more air in, the pistons have to do more work compressing that air, and hence under go more load.

[NeilPearson]

to get good starts normaly i just full throttle it for a few metres and then slowly let off, and then full throttle again, i notice that i 95% of the time get a jump on the cars infront of me using this technique

[SuperSmitt]

#1 If the wheel is new, call logitech and they will send a new unit out and many here has said they didn't even ask for the old one. So then with the old unit, the following can apply and you have 2 units.

#2 I had the loose side to side throttle pedal calibration problem on mine. What happens is the pedals are continuously auto calibrating. The pedal can deflect slightly to the side causing the pot to turn a bit more than normal and the drivers calibrate to that movement. Then when the pedals are deflected normally, they won't go a full 100% because of the "over calibration" that happened when the pedal twisted to the side a bit. I had it happen and wrapped a single layer of black electrical tape around both the throttle and brake shaft. The insides of the unit is very simple and easy to take apart and put back together. I haven't had a problem with calibration because of this since the tape fix.

#3 There is a small tab on the bottom of the pots that sit in a molded groove to keep them in place. The pots can pull up out of the mounting very easily. There are suggestions on the web to glue the pot in place, but then it is not easily removed if they ever need replaced. I had the pot come loose on mine during a league race. Every time I braked, I would get up to 50% throttle because the wires of the brake pedal inside the unit would move and push on the throttle pot. Since the pot wasn't securely mounted, it would twist giving me throttle when I braked. I wedged a small folded up piece of paper in the mounting groove to take up some of the slack on mine. I saw a suggestion since I fixed mine of someone using some kind of putty or bubble gum or something pliable to hold the pot in place rather than gluing. That would hold it in, yet allow it to be easily removed if you ever need to replace the pot.

Hope that all helps someone. I haven't had a lick of trouble with my momo pedals since taking them apart and doing these fixes. The loose pot fix I did about 15 minutes before a league race, so that tells you how simple they are to take apart and put back together.

For some good graphical explainations on the Momo pedal fixes (applies to DFP pedals as well) go here http://web.axelero.hu/mozso/momo_m.html and follow the MOMO Racing Repair button at the top of the page. Really good site and some other nice annoyance fixes as well.

Thanks for this. But now I am thinking of returning the entire wheel altogether and just going for the DFP. Just today I tried out my momo again (hadn't played in maybe 5 days), and before I begin racing, I notice the two lights on the wheel are off. The wheel was working, but there was no force feedback, and the calibration was off centre... I had to steer a fair bit to the right for the car to go straight. The force feedback had stopped working once before, but I was able to fix it. This time I couldn't... I checked the controller options in control panel, and force feedback was at its default settings, and I had to re-install the wheel to calibrate it (correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there is a way to calibrate the wheel through the software given after the initial installation unless you reinstall).

Anyway, I don't know what could have happened. The wheel hadn't been touched in a few days, so no damage could have come to it. Not sure if it is a software or hardware problem, but these glitches are getting to be a problem.

[mrodgers]

....and before I begin racing, I notice the two lights on the wheel are off. The wheel was working, but there was no force feedback....
Did you have it unplugged from the last time you used it? Did you plug it back in AFTER starting LFS or before? Just close LFS, unplug and plug back in, then start LFS. You can't plug the wheel in after LFS is running. I've had this happen to me as well on occasion even with having the wheel plugged in first (I rarely unplug it). I just close and reopen LFS and it is working again.

...and the calibration was off centre... I had to steer a fair bit to the right for the car to go straight.
Logitech wheels are constantly calibrating. Once you start LFS, or if you just plugged the wheel, steer fully lock to lock to calibrate and you should be ok. There is also a setting at the bottom of the options -> controller screen when you have the steering/pedal axis selected. You will see recalibrate, calibration lock, and remove deadzone at the bottom. Just make sure calibration lock is set to no, then you just do the lock to lock rotation when you first start LFS and it's calibrated. Also make sure you have remove deadzones checked yes.

...force feedback was at its default settings, and I had to re-install the wheel to calibrate it (correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there is a way to calibrate the wheel through the software given after the initial installation unless you reinstall).
There is no "calibration" button in the software. If you are talking about the profiler, then that is not the right place. Go to your control panel -> gaming options and you will see a graphic of the wheel and brake / throttle pedals. Just move your wheel lock to lock and push the pedals fully to calibrate. There's no button to press. One thing I notice is my calibration is different when I switch from another sim to LFS and back. I also race NR2003 and Racer, and I usually have to calibrate the wheel when switching between them all.

Hope that helps.

[SuperSmitt]

Aha! That solves the problem... didn't even have the wheel power plugged in! :)

[mrodgers]

Aha! That solves the problem... didn't even have the wheel power plugged in! :)
LOL!!!!!!!!!! I hate when that happens :D .